The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

10. Using Data Driven Decision Making to Align Sales and Marketing w/ Cassie Young

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

You hear "data-driven decision-making" being thrown around a lot. Here's how real businesses go about it. 

One two one twre three fo before we get started. We want to thinkthis month sponsor introducing Gong Dot io the number one conversationintelligence platform for Sales Gong helps. You generate more revenue byhaving better sales conversations, it automatically captures and analyzesyour teams conversations. So you can transform your team into quotashattering supersellers is I gondat io forward ty sales hacker to get in onthe action and seeiized? And now I'm with the show everybody welcome to the Sales Hackerpodcast Din, your host Sam Jacobs, with got a great show. Today, I'm going tobe interviewing CASSI young WHO's, a chief commercial officer at salethrough just a quick background about cassie she's, one of the top marketingand sales leaders in New York City and really highly regarded across theSTARNA PICO system. She's been a sale through for five years. She mostrecently moved into the CCO role, which we'll talk about prior joining sailethrough Cassi was a longtime direct marketer who built a strong personalbrander on data driven marketing, and she was actually a customer twice ofsale throus before joining the company. Previously, before that, she worked atCerson Lemmer Group, where I also worked. She also earlier worked atsavored and the latterscom she graduated from Duke, and she holds anNBA from talk at Dartmoth, so she's very smart welcome, cassy thanks Samfor having be excited to be here. I'm excited to have you especially taking alook at some of the comments and some of the conversation we're havingoffline. I think it's going to be a great conversation, so first things.First, we want to get your as we call it your baseball card out of the wayjust to frame your experience in perspective for everybody, that'slistening so CCO. I don't hear that title a lot. What does it stand forsure? Absolutely so it's the chief commercial officer- and I think moreoften than that we hear the title Chief Revenue Officer, particularly when it'ssomeone like myself, who oversees both sales and the client services component.We had a lot of back and forth internally around whether or not wewanted to use that title and we went in a direction of chief commercial officerbecause we thought revenue had a bit more of a sales tone which we thoughtcould be daunting on the client services side of things, which is howwe netted out where we did cool. Well, I love it. Congratulations. Thank you.So tell us about sale through absolutely so so through is a marketingsoftware company that is focused on two verticals. We work with media andpublishers, as well as retail ECOMMERCE businesses to help them personalizetheir experiences for their customers so effectively. What we do is we take abrand like business insider track, what their readers are doing across all ofthe various channels and make it easy for business insider to then givepersonalized recommended content and email on their website and in theirmobile at tough things like push gortification we've been in the marketnow for coming up on ten years, which is kind of wild. I've been at thecompany for five years, as you mentioned before, Sam I've known thecompany for quite a bit longer than that closer to eight. Just because ofmy exposure on the customer side, but we're headquarter here in New York,we've raised a forty, eight million dollars to date. We have not raised infour years over four years now, coming up on four and a half that forty eightmillion dollars came from a host of different investors, Rre bed letterseries, a benchmark, was behind our B and an scale. Venture partners wasbehind our sea round and today were between forty and fifty million dollars,Arr just over two hundred employees, headquartered in New York, and then wehave sort of small supporting offices in London, Los Angeles, San Franciscoand, Interestingly Wellington, New Zealand. By Way of an acquisition thatwe made there about two years ago, that is well as chief commercial officer,you're obligated to go to Wellington at least three times a year. You know Iwould agree right and it's predominantly an engineering office,but my attitude is: they need to know. What's going on in the front line tothe business, your staunch proponent of transparency, so we got it exactly,that's fantastic! So, let's just jump into it. So salesbor hasn't raisedmoney in four and a half years. That's awesome and rare, what's kind of like,what's the operational perspective on the business, that's driving thatdecision or nondecision yeah, absolutely so I'll touch on that ininvinute. But I love that you commented that it was awesome because, as aleader of the business, this is something I have to coach people aroundpretty regularly, because I think we see in the space. I know we'll talkmore about the market at large. There's a lot of companies raising a lot ofmoney right and inevitably frontline staff when they see companies taking onmassive investments. They'll say: Oh, you know. Why is that company going andraising x amount of money- and we sort of politely remind them that we're onthis March, the cashlo profitability to be masters of Hor own destiny, and thatyou know venture capital is debt right? It's. So this is something we have toremind people on regularly, but the decision for us is we talk about ourcompany goals and three broad buckets and we keep these consistent year overyear, even though the numbers change and I'll explain how this ties endo theraise Bat Inin. The first is to grow our business. The second is to be atrusted partner to our clients, and the third is to operate predictavly andresponsibly right, and in that bucket,...

...we just made a very clear decision thatwe want to be masters of Roan Destiny, as I said before, and to really get tothe point of being a casual positive company. We've had this in bumps.Historically, this year will be the first year ou O fingerscrash, but Ithink o're in good shape, where you know will be casual positive for theentire day of two thousand and eighteen, and this is a decition. You know weseid at the executive level that we're bringing down into the trenches, andthat has implications which will talk more about later for all o thedifferent teams right, because this flows into how we collect cash from ourcustomers, Thi flows in to how we think about our professional services team.But it is a very deliberate decision that we've made, but one other bit ofcolor. I would add there is like many startup companies I think sal throughwent through. You know the peaks and balleys where you know you hit a yearor two where you struggle. We had a year where we struggled with our growthand that, I think, is what ultimately prompted the decision to be laserfocused on the profitability matric, because we tend to think a lot aboutthe rule of forty and so for those who are familiar about it. We look at therule. Forty is basically what is your growth rate, topline plus sort of yourEvida or some proxy for it line right. So this is why companies that aregrowing at you know eighty percent year over year could be actually losing at aforty percent margin, money right and still be good because they hit thatrule of forty, and so when we had that year or two of slower growth, we said.Okay, we need to make sure that the slower growth ind, what we' like to see,is protected by that sort of bottom line pieace and that's just a littlebit more historical context on what had us thinking about that and we juststuck to it over the years from there. As I said, I use the UBIQUITIS adjetiveawesome, but it's because I assumed four and a half years since a raisethat you guys are working towards profitability and cash lebreak. Evenand that's I like businesses that do that, because ot mhan get there yeahexactl yeah, so tell us a little bit about you, know, sort of your originstore you've been doing startups for a long time. You and I met in my axeoldday. So that's got to be at least seven. Maybe eight years ago, Tel was how yougot into startup Sinde sort of what your journey was. Yeah, absolutely yousaid it. I've been in a startup land in New York for twelve years and it's beenpretty fascinating to see the changes here over that time I started my careerin investment, banking, covering media and tech companies, and I think thatmentioned you, Sam the hot transactions in two thousand and five for my spaceright being bought by DEWCORP. So it's a very different time, but it'sexciting to see. But when I worked in banking I absolutely love the companiesI was covering. I did not love being a banking analyst and I sort of startedbuilding a little bit of a network inside the bank and sort of looking foropportunities and tach outside of it. But the really fascinating thing isthat in two thousand and six there were not a lot of venture back start upcompanies in New York City, and it's somewhat fortuitously that I ended upgetting connected with the lattercom which is still around today, but a verydifferent business than it was then and met. The founders met the team thereand I always say they took a massive leap of faith on me because I had zeroouces of operating experience, but they were looking for someone who was justsort of a strong business analyst who had the data, quantitative chops andnot coincidently. The founders there were formally. Bankers was probably hada lot to do with it, but the ladders was my first forray in detect, Iabsolutely loved it. I love sort of learning about all the differentnuances of businesses and how they worked. I was there for a number ofyears. I stayed there sort of through the credit crisis and recession an Awaiand then leading into two thousand and nine, and just quite frankly, I leftNew York to go back to pursue my NBA full time in two thousand and nine andwas convinced that I was going to have to move to California afterwards. Iactually spent a reasonable amount of time of pursuing my mba out in thevalley I spent the summer in between working for the exact team at AOL ontheir turnaround strategy, which is interesting and gives me good lens andother places, but was really relieved to see that in the two years that I wasup in New Hampshire, the start up seeing here had really just explodedright, and you know, when I left, I think gilt was just getting off theground. There were a couple of other consumer startups picking up, and soyou know it was a natural choice to come back. I was actually running abusiness from dartmess focused on helping early stage companies withtheir pitch dects for vcs around how they're telling a story with their data.Then I came back to work for one of those that was a time called villagefines we rebranded it to savored was there forbid the company ultimatelysold o group on and then, as you mentioned earlier, Sam did something alittle bit different at Glg, where it's a kind of not the old company but older,compared to many of the startups in New York to help them sort of bring more ofthe business online and endit up at sale through from there. So I alwayssay it's, you know really three startups between the ladder savored andsail through glg kind of maybe a start within a little bit on some of thethings that are working there. It's been really fascinated to see A. Ithink. The other interesting dimension for me is working at businesses thatour marketplace- businesses at the ladders, a it savored, but thencertainly stuff. This tor play BTC and...

...then Ad Sal, through certainlyclassically B, Ta Besas, so definitely have had my fingers in a number ofdifferent places. But, as I said, it's been really fantastic to see just howmuch the New York texing has exploded over the course of that decade plus soit has been amazing. I think, there's probably quite a few people or maybe atleast one being me, that's listening, I'm thinking, okay, you were a banker.How did you think about you know? A lot of people quote unquote want to work atstartups, but how did you figure out what function within the startup world?You thought you could play a role and then how did you you know years laternow? You know you would describe yourself as a season sales, anmarketting executive, but how did you figure out where to go when youereleaving the banking world and trying to find an entre yeah? Absolutely it's agreat question and I think the number one thing for me was finding a rolethat was quantitatively charged, but not finance right. So I love our FPNATM.That's not the work that gets me wrapped up, but what I would say is, Ithink, why I have a great relationship with them and then we'll talk aboutwhere I went specifically is because I understand all of those concepts andbuilt those models once upon a time right. So I don't think a lot of peoplewho are traditionally in the type of role that I'm in can lean in with thatright and talk about sort of. You know what the cash projections Lok like etCetea, which is definitely a Lego, but where I ultimately decided to go, and Itell the story all the time is when I decided to leave Bankyewas twenty fouryears old and so naive that I don't think I understood the differencebetween marketing and advertising, and I look back on that now and I'm like.How can that be? And what I mean by that is a lot of people said well, youshould go into a marketing role, because marketing is very data fervenand I taut od marketing and I whougt. They meant an agency right and it's notuntil I started poking around and speaking to people that I realize thatwhen marketing, and particularly at that time, direct response- parkeingwas done well, it was no difference different right than really managinglongterm financial analysis. What I mean by that is, you know, cobordanalysis of the customers you acquire. The other example I give people is atthe ladders. We spent a lot of money on paid search at that time, so we werespending upwards of nine million dollars a year on paid search, and wecalled it like our mini Hedge Fund, right of keywords, because we weldshort and long keywords, but anyway, the way I got into it was actually justnetworking and sort of talking to people who I respected in the space.Who said you know what, with your analytical skills, you would be reallygreat and marketing, and so, when I went and spoke with the team at theladders, it just so happened that that is what they were. Looking for and AlexDza, who was one of the cofounders and munning the marketing function, I think,is arguably probably the best marketer I've ever met, and I tell people that Ithink I really looked out in terms ot. I didn't know anything about thiscompany. I went to work for Alex and learns so incredibly much, and so fromthat point forward. I think the latters give me a chance to really become asubject matter: Expert on Subscription Marketing, consumer marketing, Datofdiven marketing, but what I also really love about it is Mark Senadella, whowas the CEO There at the time, and it still the CEO Today, I think, is one ofthe most fourthright transparent, Cos I'll ever work for as a mentor to mepersonally, so the amount that I just took out of that experience in terms ofhow you run a business right and how you communicate it with e staff washuge, and so for me, that's how I sort of I made the break from the marketingangle, and then I really just spent the next several years trying to expandthat. So when I was working for the President of the Consumer Division atAOL, I spent a lot more time on kind of the macro business. So what were theydoing in the turnaround strategy? What did that mean for different parts ofthe business? What did that mean by way of modernization? So I sort of startedand word with marketing and then took roles from that point forward. That hadadjacencies at other parts of the business that could really help mepropel forward and the big part of that is, like you know, ultimately running apiano. You know kind of building that experience over time. probaly differentplaces and sales to we totally want is directly managing a frontline salesteam is a newer foray to me. I've been touching that business for years byteam, historically Raund the install based commercial team sobernuals atupselms, but the reason I'm super excited about it is because I do thinklike particularly an marketing teck where salethrough sets there are somany companies- and there are many plays that are just kind of commodityplays at this point in the space and so being able to differentiate on valueand knowing the space. Well is huge, and so the reason I bring that up isbecause I'm excited to bring to our sales team, subject matter, expertisearound what we're selling and think about how that's a point ofdifferentiation for us in the market. That is very, very, very congestice.Well, I think the sales team, knowing what they're selling is that's the holygrail right, that's whatl. We hope for yeah. So you said a couple things justnow that I'd love to just drill deeper on and one of their men is the value oftransparency. I know when you think about the lessons that you'v Learnedfrom your time at startups. I know transparency looms large. What's yourapproach to it? How do you think about it? I'm particularly interested asyou're doing now and as I've had some experience doing when you're running aglobal office, cultural norms around...

...transparency are different. How do youthink about it? Do you say frankly fuck it like we're going to do it the waythat I know how to do it and if there's kind of like people or cultures thatare a little bit more secretive or private, or just take a differentapproach to information, I'm just going to trust that, whether you're in Londonor whether o you're in New Zealand or whether you're in Chicago everybody,can be the adult and handle the information. How do you think aboutthat Yep and you hit the nail on the head? I have totally said screw theorms, and this is the way I'm going to do it and whut I'll tell you ind thereason for that and then I'll tell you how it's played out is because,inevitably you have pockets of different personalities and every oneof those offices, so they're just simply cannot be incruent and congeentinformation or different information pass through because at just over twohundred employees. It's a small enough organization that people talk all thetime. So there has to be a consistent message, tone etcete that comes through.Otherwise you know, we know what happens and what I'll tell you isthere's a couple of different, very tactical things. I do to promotetransparency. Andll tell you how those have sort of shook out for me. So thefirst thing is every single Monday night for the last four years. I sendthis very wordy weekly update from me to all of my teams, and in that update,I give them a couple different things. One is a breakdown of how we're pacingon the quorter and including just updates on t deals were working andKavr dules. Just so, no one misses a beant on where we're at if a decision'sbeen delayed so on and so forth, but then I also just give them a kind ofPlethera of other sort of comments and updates from across the businessranging from WHO's visiting. What office is? What are we talking about asan executive team so coming out of each one of our executive staff meetingsevery Monday morning we explicitly call out. Is there anything we're notcomfortable cascating to the ORG anything other than that? I cascade tothe organization proactively right, and so my team knows they get this kind oflengthy delivery for me when they show up on Tuesday lording, they havesomething to read, and actually a few people had asked me to turn that into apodcast, but I told them. You know I did a survey, a D people said No. Welike to search for those and email, and I sayd guys ' not doing the email andthe podcast so o Tak wit the email, because it does take a little bit oftime, but the reason I share. That is because I would say actually a numberof people in our London office have said to me. I have never worked in aCOMPANYD, this transperet and I jokeid them. I said it's probably just banright, I'm an open book and sometimes to a faulse right where people comeback and say well, you said Xquyrz, but I think it's really worked really wellfor us and I do it in a few other places as well too. I do monthly kindof coffee roulette with different members of the team where I'll get fouror five people from ideally different teams within my broader perview, tokind of get together and catch up and then, once a month I do jhust a veryquick forty, five minute regional sink with the different offices. So I'll doforty five minutes sink with everyone in the London office. Forty fiveminutes with everyone on the West Coast, New Zealand. We treat this a little bitdifferently. One off since is predominantly engineering, so I don't,you know, do as much on a regular padence with them, but I find thatthese avenues for being able not only to share information but, moreimportantly, to have a two way. Conversation about things areabsolutely huge and the same thing has played out for me in terms of you knowand taking over the sales role, I'm obviously presenting and things likecompany all hands. I think it's been a wakeup call for everyone, because Iwon't just go up there and say here: The logoes be close I'll, actually golevel deeper and say to the team, here's Orat and pipeline right andgreat. We hit the number this quarter, but I'm worried about next quarter,because this is what our coverage ratio looks like right. So I really try tobring that forward and that again is something that I've just learned fromworking at past companies, where the example I give people always is at theladders. We had a very detailed all company meeting every single Mondaymorning, and it was so detailed that I as reminder as a subscription businesson the consumer side. At that time, I genuinely think people in our customerservice team could explain the difference between cash and deferredrevenue. That's how detailed that was. So I think about that. Often- and Idon't Qite boil the ocean to that extent now, but I do think that thatopportunity for helping people learn is also a huge part of the transparencyplay. I use some of the same tactics that you just described. I send myweekly summary Email on the weekend normally and I'm going to actually dothat over after we get off the phone, so yeah, one of the other things youtalked about or we've talked about is resilience. I think your anecdotes.There are super interesting when it comes to like the lessons that youlearn from your time and startups. How do you approach resilience and Howdo?You Approach? You know you've mentioned to me offline, like trusting theprocess, but explain that in a little bit more detail. He absolutely wellI'll share with the audience that my team likes to joke that at least everysix months they get the CATSA young stand on a soap box and give theresilience talk. You know I do take it the hard and where that comes from isanyone who has been a part of a startut knows that it's sort of the classicescerve right where there's crazy growth, and then you hit a growingpoint, a growing pain and you have to sort it out and it takes a little bitof time and it's uncomfortable and it's...

...often ugly. But that's what makes you agreat leader and that's what gives you the experience right and I'll tell you.We went through a challenge of sal through in two thousand and fourteenwhere we had to migrate our data center and it was a shit show and a half right,particularly for our clients, services tem, and we had many people who sort ofjust said. That's it like I'm leaving in the moment, and I this is the firsttime I kind of gave that soap box top, and I was out an infamy where you knowI said to the team you can leave now. But if you leave now, you don't havethe resume experience of how you manage through a problem like this, and everycompany has those problems at every stage in their growth and if you're, ata company where you don't think that they have those problems, then oneeither they're just not being transparent, and you don't know aboutthem or you're, so much a cog in the machine that you're just that separatedfrom the problem right, and so I try to tell people every time you hit achallenging point. This is something else to add to your personal arsenal,around situations that you've led through, and this is what makes greatleaders right and separates people from who are just there. You know to do itall day from versus whatever else, and you know, I think, resilience andtransparency play in so much together and I'llshare. This example, I recentlyhad with Oursdr team, where we don't have any open, closing roles right nowand the natural path for our SDRs is to go into what we call sales surrectorrole, and it's just we're not going to have one for several months and we'vehad a number of people on the team who have been in the SDR roll for eighteen,Ond, twenty four months and they're chumping at the bit, and you know theyfeel like they should have that job tomorrow, and so I finally, you knowhad this bent the other couple weeks ago, where I just said to the team busand we don't have any of these roles. You have kind of three differentoptions here. One is, if you really don't want to be in your job anymore,we have a host of other roles open across the company. You can look atthose if you want to say in sals is probably not the best move, but you cando that number two. Is You like being an SDR and you want to wait it out, soyou agree to keep being an SR, but to do well and to be performance, manageagainst. You know our numbers and our expectations or three? Is You find ajob somewhere else, and I think I shocked people when I said that, butI'm also a huge believer in exporting talent at the right time, and I thinkthis comes back to a little bit of resilience as well to where you make itthrough a lot of things that accompany. But you also have to know sort of whenthe time is right and when you've gotten the most out of it. If t e theright thing is there immediately, and my preference is always for people tofind the next best thing at sale through, but if I think they're goingto find the next best thing somewhere else, I'm going to be their number oneadvocate and making that happen, because I'm a big believer and having abunch of happy sells ro ons running around the city and not people. Youknow who are jaded right, that they didn't get what they you know. Thoughtwas promised to that. So I no false promises is a big part of that, but youknow the resilliene piece I think I said to you Sandarond trustid. Theprocess is that things don't always go the way. You think the first time youhave to be willing to wait it out and you have to trust the process, becauseif you have a good leadership team, they are doing what is right for thelong term good of the company, and I think it's very easy for people to getimpatient and not want to see that through an so. That's why I said I't ahuge believer. I tell Eo all the time, just trust the process we're lookingout for you. We have everyone's best interest in mind, but things take timesometimes, and I think you know impatience- kills all yeah. I've saidI've had a lot of those same conversations and I think that can betough for people to process. The other thing I often say is you know: If youwant more opportunities, the thing that's going to determine opportunitiesis growth. So as long as you help us grow and the you growth there's goingto be new AE positions open up, I use that same line. I couldn't agree more,I'm like good news. You can help us to open a new roll right. Jus We'll needanother person yeah exactly so give us your chake on kind of the market. ThoStart Up PECAU system. You know you are a sault leader in the space, at leastin New York. You've been around the block enough, and you know enoughpeople that I think people come to you and look to you for sort of your pointof view on what's going on in the landscape. What's your take on thingsthese days? Yeah! Absolutely! Well, I mentioned IFOR. The first thing is: I'msuper excited to state sort of the state of where New York City is atright now kind of going from small handful ofventure back companies to youknow your tripping over them in the street thesedays. But you know whatI'll tell you is. I think, what's been alarming to me is exactly how manycompanies there are now right and my follow onto that. As I think what I'msaying is that there's a lot of first time founders, who underestimate justhow hard it is to build a company right and I always say Wik- I do a lot ofwork with a lot of you know the incubators and accelerators here in NewYork. Is You have to be so passionate about the idea that you have and whatyou are building, and I do worry that we see this trend of like people whowant to be a founder or CEO and just forcefit a business idea to be afounder right. That's definitely a little bit concerning to me and Ialways give people this personal example of my longterm ceer path. Iwould love to be a CEO or COO, and I...

...tell people I would love to do that forthe right company right, and so the example I give is I really respect HRtechnology. I would never go work for anyture company, it's just not where mypersonal passion is my personal passionism marketing analytics and dataright, and so you have to stay true to that, and I do worry that I see alittle bit of people sort of falling off horse about that. We've all heardthe classic line that you know in Soicon Valley, the Tachas Tech Right,but in New York, the techas industry- and I do think, that's very true and itkeeps thyings very interesting. I also think the start up post for businesswith Het. You know the advent of s three is said: Ro t make it very easyto get things off the ground, but that businesses need to have a road to builda business and not just a feature right, and I see this a lot in software whereI meet. You know. Software founders- and I say, is this really a robustbusiness and what's the plan to get there, or is this really like what Iwould call point solution for something that maybe it could be a nice Tuckinfor somewore somewhere along the line? But I don't get excited aboutbusinesses that are, you know, born and grown to be. You know, Toph anacquisition. It's you know. How can you build something that is, is reallyreally exciting, so I guess in summary, I love seeing all the momentum. I thinkit is going to be there's so many companies out there that it's going tobe interesting to see sort of WHO's a merge, and I love some of the fantasticexits that have happened for some of the New York companies and recentmonths and I'm eager to see more of that. But I also think that there'sgoing to have to be a little bit of a Shakeout just given the vast volume ofof companies, we see on this sort of have taken vc money map in the lastfive years. I completely agree- and I think what you said is reallyinteresting, so many people that they want to be founders. I had aconversation recently with aspiring founder and we started talking abouttheir customers and I said well what tell me about your customers day. Tellme about heor she. What problem are they trying to solve and how are youhelping themselves that problem and I got a quizzical look on the face andthe point I was trying to make is Youre an evangelist on behalf of yourcustomers? That's what the business does and it's not just a vehicle foryou to sort of like selfactualize right like that. The thing has to exist onbehalf of somebody else whose problem you're trying to solve, which I thinkwas a strange concept for the person I was speaking with. I totally agree withthat. It's funny like people always say to Ma. Oh, are you goin to go startyour own thing, I'm like? No, because I don't have an idea that I'm passionateabout right. Like sure I ca hot, like IU, start Af Tis, yes, but it wouldn'tend well, yeah, exactly yeah! You know I'd love to talk a little bit aboutbecause you ad sal through 'vebeen, running the customer success team for along time as about the transition to running the sales team and what youthink are kind of like the the pluses and the minuses, the benefits anddisadvantages part of that, probably being how you can awign the customerjourney more effectively. Yeah, absolutely so. Certainly the kind ofNoshin of I'l put it positively, like one touchpoint for the entire customer.lifesycle right is great, but the reason I say put it diplomatically. Thefirst time is, I joke with perspective clients oute that you have one throatto choke right, so I'm not going to Sey you something that my same team can'tservice. So it's great to see a plant out fom that et, but hitting aside, Ithink, what's been really interesting- is what you learn above all else, onthe client service. Societ is what your best customer looks like right and thatcan be in terms of the industries at their end. So I mentioned before, likewe're really hungered down in two spots, that media and commerce, because wethink we have plenty of room to grow in those markets without attackingadjacencies, but beyond that, just the industry bed deal size right complexity.So what I mean by that is, you know: We've learned a lot from customers whowork with third party development teams like they tend to not really do wellwith so through right, and we need to better account for that in the salesprocess, so kind of taking all of those learnings and sort of putting it intoaction in terms of making sure that we shut things down early has been hugeand a tactical example of that has been. You know we are minimum feal size rightnow on paper. Right is seventy five Thousan dollars a year now, inevitably,what happens? Is People are working smaller deals as the end of the quarterright and boom? Somehow an exception is made. My commitment now is. I know thatthose customers- it's not, that we don't like those businesses, and wedon't think that they're interesting. I know that the customers that aresmaller than that consume an insane amount of time from our CSN, so weactually have our CSMS time track and the band of clients that's under aHundredk ACV. Let's say that it's just south of fifteen percent of Soker'stotal revenue and aggregate they take more than thirty percent of our CSMStime, which is insane to me, write the imbalance, and then we also know thatthose custerers, you know, tend to have higher turnin contraction rates. So Idon't want to be selling to them and again it's I want to sell them whenthey get a little bit bigger but nots at the right time, and so you know muchof this you're going on the sell team. I now have an alert coming from salesforst. If anyone tries to move a deal in o pipe right, that's below that sizeso that we can address it head on versus kind of getting in this. Youknow tough end of quarter discussion, but I think the bigger thing for me hasbeen like not just doing that for the...

...sake of doing it, but educating thesales team on why we do that. So actually, one of the first things I didin a new role was take our sales team through the business rationale for whywe're moving up market and hat included, taking them through the time trackingGada and the thing I explained to them was you know every deal that you close.That's of the smaller variety is one more account that this CSM over herehas the service that takes away from the time they are spending with thelikes of herse and don't you want, as the salesperson hers, to be drivingadditional business to be referring us into other places. We need to make surethat we're focused on the customers that are really going to be the biggestprepeller of the business forrd, so that I think his been the mostinteresting bit, but at the same time like the conflicting piece has beenyeah. I also want to make sure we get deals over the line. Are you willing toputting you know sort of like a plying grass tax yeah the last week of thequarter? Just like it just was yeah got us you've got. You know, sales directorand a come to you and say Cassi. I can close the steal, but it's going to befor sixtyhsand, but this is going to be the deal or this. This set of two dealsis going to be the two deals that get us to the number that you tase you wantto. Would you turn that deal down? So I'm going to answer that in a secondI'm first going to give a quick caviat, which is, I think, we're trying to SOLVforas. We have a slightly longer sale cycle. I don't want to ever get to thepoint where that's a conversation the last week of the quarter right, weshouldn't like it shouldn't be that late stage that we're discussing a dealof that size right and so my thing to the team is I'm always happy to look ata one off business. Right like we started working with jet before theywatchd. That was a great business move right. So you look at. You know who'sback the company. What is the growth pan look like, but I want to look atthat early and, if I didn't know what ton about that deal, I wouldn't endorseit at the end of the quarter, because that's something where, like myself andour CFO, have to give the green light in advance that world pay going after acustomer of that size, and we actually did have our first scenario on Qone,where there was kind of an interesting company who came back and said you knowyou guys are too expensive. This is what we need the price to be, and itwas no lex complex than anything else and we walkd from the deal- and I thinkthat's the first time we've ever done that. But I do believe- and I was goingto hit on this point in a minute- The one nice thing for me in running bothsales and seeasses- that I talked about like our company framework of goalsbefore my number for growing our business is an exit, air or number, whomatter how we get there right now. We of course have to bring ample new logobusiness in, but the reason I mentioned that is because, for me it's how do wegrow new logos but to how do we mitigate sure and write in ensurestrong growth in the install base and strong thatalr retention rate, and somy argument and that type of scenario would be great. I could book this dealtoday to guarantee fifty grand and gross churn next year right, yeah or intwo years- and this is, I think- and I think you know- Sam Yu and I talke Boh.This is some point when I think I bring a lot to the table on is balancingshort term versus long term right, and it's really funny for me, because wetell our clients Hav sail through all the time. You know you guys- and theseare all dust- consumer marketers, right, you're, so focused on driving sales andrevenue today- that you don't care about the long term impact on yourcustomers and you a road lifetime value, etce ETCR, and I tell her to I'm likeguys. We need to eat our own dog food on that concept. It can't just be oisend of quarter and we really need this. Fifty grand. So even though it's not agreat customer we're going to bring them in because that's fifty grandwe're going to have to work to win back. You know what I mean when it doesn'tplay out and again, there's always exceptions to the rule and with theright like compelling business case will sell smaller deals, but it has tobe an executive bod in decision to do that, not something that's made in thetwenty third hour. You know the thirt eft of the month. Yeah. No, that's truethe point that you're bringing up those. So it's so important. This is what theword for me. Alignment means yes, because your capital strategy, yourcashflow strategy, your sales strategy, your CS strategy and your market sizeand your deal site like everything, has to be aligned, because, yes, if you'remaking those decisions in isolation, but you have an unrealistic target,then the business is out of alignment, if you know so like as long as yourgrowth expectations are in line with both the reality, the market size, youknow and you're in the same pageas your cfo, then I think that that's the bestplace to be. Obviously, yes, absolutely- and I you know illuded to this beforeunfortunate- that I have a great relationship with our CFL. I think,coming from a financial background, I understand what the levers are forgrowth and for businesses and how we're going to be assessed by our owninvestors, and then you know other investors down the line, so that's huge,but I think SAMD. One other thing I mentioned to you that we've done toroay drive Alinmen is we actually have sales OPP sitting in fpna right now,and the reason for that was you know. Historically, if everyine two years ago,we had this challenge where sales would have a plan. If we missed the plan, wehad to go back. We had a reforecast before every board meeting right andthere was just one missing step between...

...those teams, whereas now that's a jointeffort of figuring out exactly what the plan needs to look like. How do wederive the complans? It's just very thoughtful. The one challenge that Iwould tell people about is inevitably, and we love our FPNA and sales up folks.The messaging can be very different, coming from them to a team in terms ofgoal. Setting then, coming from you K, ow someone like you er, Mak right andso for me, a big part of it is how do I work really closely with that team,where our Sdris, for instance, don't feel like it's finance helling them?They have to go. Have this many activities per week right it's! This ishow we work through it and I'm a huge believer, and I joke with people onlike. I take my team back to eighth grade science on a regular day and talkabout the scientific method right, and I tell them like any number. I give youas a hypothesis for right now and I'm willing to be disproven and how do wemanage through that, but they need to hear that from leadership in sales andnot from finance. So, while there's very close coordination, I do thinkthat's just one kind of nuance that it you know is can potentially be achallenging point and people need to think about it. So you are just acustomer of sales, OPS, but sales UPPS, actually formally reports up throughthe CFO. Is that right, that's corract, but its Y Tait is- and I sit, thoughdirectly next to our mainsales opsty- very deliberately tuts like a moralauthority but like Tawa for report for this, so at Azin yeah. But we got a few morequestions and then I'd love. I think I would love to end with some of your.You know your role, models, mentes and and flences, because those are alwaysamazing but you've been doing this a lot you' been doing it marketing insales. We always ask this question just because it's the sales audience, but hethinks SDRs, should they report to marketing your sales. I think theyshould report the sales, and I think what I mentioned to you is. We havetried both the reason I like them, reporting the sales, and I think,there's merits of both. Don't get me wrong. Wi'tve seen pros and cons atboth sides is the alignment to the sales directors and to the RBPs thereason I say this is because I see a lot of problems when team startthinking about well pipeline from marketing hipeline from sales like atsail. Through the biggest lesson we've learned is there is one pipeline numberowned by the commercial team? Yes, our head of marketing and I have a wensinto what should be coming from where that we talk about with our executiveteam but to everyone else, there's one pipe bine number and I think it justmakes it cleaner. You know for that, and I also do think when we made thechange back from srs going from marketing the sales we just saw muchmuch much better awiemen between the SDS and the sers in terms of how theyultimately work together. That's interesting! Well, that is an offdebate when you think about what percentage marketing should contributeto an enterprise sales pipeline. How do you think about pipeline composition?Do you think that the REP should be prospecting? Twenty percent of theirown deals, forty percent of their own deals, none of their own deals when youthink about the composition of the right pipeline. What are youringredients yeah? Absolutely so, actually tell you is specifically howwe think about it. So in general we expect marketing to drive about fortypercent of our pipeline. That could be through events. It could be throughcontent. It could be through anything that we're ultimately doing there. Wethen expect what a the Caviat I'll put on that is, some of that maybe workthrough the SDRs, ultimately right, because you have like a asset downloadright that, ultimately, the SCR picks up, but something that ties back tomarketing in some way that could be influenced by the SCR we have the SDR.We assume that their outbound prospecting and that could be you knowtheir emails going to meetups whatever it might be generates another twentyfive percent for us, so again in total is probably more than twenty fivepercent. When you look at the inbounds they're picking up off of marketinglike and total, I would actually say- that's probably sixty five percent, ifyou think about it, because anything that marketing influences is ultimatelygoing to get picked up by an FDR, the remainder of things for us, so you knowanother fifteen percent call it. We expect to come from referrals that youknow is's either the other customers tour employees ever it might be. Butthat's you know usiually how we think about our breakdown so again marketing.I would say it's really sixty five percent SDR, but forty of the sixtyfive is marketing ribbon. If that makes sense right and but the interestingthing you just said, or not, that it wasn't all interesting fifteen percentcoming from referrals, which is almost a way of saying, fifteen percent comingfrom customer success. Yes, in a way it', that's exactly saying that, andit's funny are two largest transactions of Qone wher. They both have in common.They were both actually former customers took new roles and newcompanies and brought us in band. That's been a huge source of successfor us, which again is like. We want the sales team to understand this. Whenwe are picky about what deals we sell because we say hey, we want reallyhappy customers, because they then yield more happy customers yeah.Absolutely your stack, so you've got a marketing stack in a salesstack, let'sname some names so that if folks listening want to go out and get theright vendor or use the right technology, they can so tell us aboutyour sales and marketing stack, yeah sure. So we use sales forces or CRM. MyFunny Joke there is, incidentally,...

...sales force now also owis, en of ourlargest competitor, so we'll see how that plays out. We use Marcetto for alot of our Legena kind of landing, paide stuff sales. Loft is what our SDRteam is using. We are huge fan of selles off, so give them a big plug.Here we use funnalize for a lot of just sort of our type of funnal conversiondata. I know that our marketing opsteam things really highly a funnel wise interms of their thought: leadership, peace and going to them with questionsand having them pull data for us and we find them very helpful, and then we uselean data for a lot of the sort of our contect management et CTA. I would saya lot of those are just tools that we need, but I you know kind of laid ventonto this. When I talked about it, the team loves working with Selles Oft, notonly just because of the functiality of the tool and how it Li allows us toscale, but also, I think again, to atout leadership. Front they've beenreally helpful and just providing us in sight when we have questions on what'sworking there. The one thing I did want to mention is the Ou ask nee sond that,like we have a killer, AP well, one thing: Thats kind of unique to the Sallthrough business model and I suspect, there's other kind of corollaries forother industries. Is we sell licenses based on the channels that you use? Soif you buy email on site or mobile from US email is the lion share of ourbusiness is about eighty percent of our total business, which means we need tohave a sense for how big someone is as an email, senter and there's. Actuallya tool for us is called edata sort that lets us see how much email a brand issending like a bullpark estimate and who the incomvent is right, and that ismassively helpful data for our SDRs right in terms of knowing who they'reon and how do we kind of use Fud based on that particular incumbent, but it'salso really helpful for us in terms of equity assignments of our territoriesright. So if we know loosely how much email, someone sending we directionallyknow the size of the deal and that just helps us for how we car up territories,you know, in terms of you know who gets buts yeah. I didn't ask you this: Doyou have a field sales team like what's the composition of field sales versusinside Solmes, so the composition of the team right now? is we work one SDRTO TWO SDS? We have right now. The SDR team is about seven, so you've aboutyou, know, fourteen who are out in the field and some it's a you know: BallParkis in some places will double up like when we're trying to get off theground. So London toy have slightly better coverage. Yeah makes sense whenyou think about role, models, people that have influenced you over thecourse of your career, and we want to make sure that they get a shout out anygreat vpso sales, CMOS bounders that have played a roll nn. Absolutely so.The first time I worked really closely with a head of sales was when I was atsavored, and that was with Michae Houga, who ran sales at Yodel for a number ofyears and now is over at her leeding a big part of their business. But I metand the reason I show s Sanswer is: I met Mike Wo, a very good personalfriend of mine, actually Arford of o the Jaba at Saber, Joe Laufer, who ranthe marketing function at Yodo, and I think the pair of those to I respectthem a lot. I always learn o tell whe. I talk to them, but what I learn themost from life is how Ra Ra you have to be. That sounds like such a sillyanswer, but I am a programmed introvert right and I always say, like I can puton my eface when I need to write to be the exoer, but he really tauket me thatright and he the example. It was got people as he told the team. If they hittheir number, he could they could shave whatever they wanted into his head. Youknow what I mean like hers like Thi, Lessons that like stick with you interms of like he really can pump up a crowd, and so that was really huge forme. On that end, I think more broadly, on mentorship ut. I mentioned thisbefore marks and Idel at the ladders has been my number one mentor over theyears and what I really like about his tile is sometimes when I talk toBarki'm, not sure whether it be happy or cry right at like how pointed he iswith Ke tat, but it's like the best kind of ventor right, because he'salways right and I've gone to him at a couple of really important, inflectionpoints in my career, where to be totally honest like for this audience,I never would have thought about. You know pursuing the sales path and thefirst time that idea ever even crossed my line was sitting at Breakfast withmark seven months ago. He's been fantastic to that. That's amazing andthen you've got some experience with the folks of primary. So for those thatdon't know, Bradon Ben tell us your experience with them. Love Brad and ban,so Brad was one of my board members at Savord. He and I have remained closefriends over the years and I've gotten to know been with him as well, so forthose who are familiar with primary theyre seed, state Flan here in NewYork focus on Sass and consiers o two of my favorite places. But what I loveabout the approach that they're taking is: they are taking a very hands onrole and helping their portfolio companies grow to the next level, sotheir hit rate of seed stage companies that actually go on to raise an aroudand beyond is off the charts as a result, so they help them with marketdevelopment. Hiring is really absolutely fantastic, so I have a tonof respect for what they're doing in terms of you know. Who Do, I think, areinteresting in vestors in New York right now. That's fantastic! All Right!We're almost to the end. What's a great book you've read recently or somethingthat's been really influential, so it a little bit yeah absolutely so Imentioned how I make our team think about scientific method. All the timefavorite book that I make all of my direct read at some point is other sideof innovation, which is basically it...

...was written by a press ormind frombusiness school and it's a series of vinjetts about companies trying toinnovate, some big some smaller and the importance of running measurableexperiments to drive success when you're trying to evate. I highlyrecommend it. It's a easy read on the subway, but just always gives you adifferent lenes for thought. That's awesome! Well, I guess the IAVE twolast questions. A first is any motto or guiding principles. What's is there anysort of broader philosophy? That's governing your career as you pursue it,a absolutely so nybe thing- and this is a personal one. For me, my dad was avery successful executive and became you know terminally ill later in hiscareer and had to dial back his hours nd. It was a very tough thing for himand I always remember my mom telling me the story of when he told his CEO thisthe CEO said fifty percent of Billyoung is better than a hundred percent ofanyone else. So that's fine by me and I live by that motto every single day ofhow do I just be indispensable to the point where someone could say the samething about me. So that is huge and that's definitely my governing motto.The overthing that I think about every day is you are only as strong as theteam that supports you, and I tell myself that, and I tell frontmymanagers that all the time like it's reat and we love people as people, butsometimes it's not the right fit and you have to remember as a manager tthat reflects on you and so that's just kind of the other thing that I tend tofi heard over saying a lot between that and then the team likes the joke, Ialways say, but the number steak right. So that would be my more light. Hearted one turnup all right.Finally, if people wanted to get in touch with you, either to apply for ajob at sail through or just get your advice on something. What's yourpreferred communication channel they reach out to you yeah, absolutely emailis my preferred communication channel. So my email is just c young young atSathrougcom. I just tell people I am on the Road Awat with customers aneprospects. I always clear out my inbox at the end of the week, but it may justtake me a couple days to get back and to your point, Sam we'd love to hearfrom great people, so we're always hiring an in particular we're alwayslooking for great fcrs, and we may actually be looking for someone toanother person helpleede that team later this year. So with we left toyear, fromfolps awesome well, Kasy. Thank you! So much yeah, thanks Aganfor having me Sai, some incredible insides and I'll talk to you soonsounds great al right. Thank you thanks. I everybody. This is SAM's corner.Another amazing interview, they're, all amazing aren't they, but I thinkasyoung really was incredibly incisable incissives and her experience in theSTARTOFPECO system here in New York is second and non. One of the things thatcassie was talking about was her emphasis on transparency. She walkedthrough a series, essentially a cadence and a series of communication platformsthat she uses to enforce and reinforce transparency, and one of those thingsis a weekly email which illsended today, which is a Sunday. She sends it Mondaynight Jesse Hurtsburg from livestream used to send his on Monday afternoon,but I would really encourage everybody to think about that some method ofCommunicatingto the entire organization and then putting as much information inthere as you can on a weekly basis. I think you got to make it a mixture ofnumbers and story so that obviously the numbers do tell a story, but it'simportant that the company knows the engineer's Kno, not just the salesteeme, but everybody in the company understands. Where is the business? Howis ittracting towards the scools and then what's some narrative, what somecontext on top of those numbers that help us contextulize it? The otherthing that I tend to do is did to say: here's some highlights here. Some bigwins, here's some of the people that contributed to those wins and thenhere's some areas from MPROVEMENT. I don't really call them losses, but Isay these are the things we're continuing to work on. These are thebig factors that are going to be driving and determining success overthe next couple of months and quarters. Besides just providing information, theother thing that it teaches people to do particularly junior people is itteaches them how to think about business and how to frame thevaluecreation, which, again to the point of castianized conversation. If you talkto a lot of people, a lot of sales people a lot of a lot of junior peoplein their careers, that's something that you have to develop. You have todevelop a point of view on business. You have to have a point of view on howis value created, and I think, a really good weekly summer email, either fromthe head of revenue, but often from the CEO as well, can help frame the waythat people should think about tha creation within the context of theirbusiness. So this has been Sam's corner thanks. So much for listening to checkout the show, notes, see upcoming guests and play more episodes from ourincredible line. Up of sales leaders visit sales, hackercom podcast. You canalso find the sales hacking podcast on itubes or Google play or anywhere thatyou consume your podcasts. If you enjoyed this episode, please share withyour peers on linked in twitter or elsewhere. Special thanks again to thismonth's sponsors at Gong, see more Gongdot, IO, forh sales tacker. Andfinally, if you want to get in touch with me, you can find me on twitter, atSam, F Jacobs or on Linkdon at linkoncom. Ah and SAMMOTH JACOBS SEENEXT TIME.

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