The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

11. Using Science and Empathy to Improve Your Sales Conversations w/ David Priemer

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

On this episode with David Priemer, Founder of Cerebral Selling, we discuss the right tools and tactics to help reps effectively manage their sales conversations.  

One two one thre three fo before we get started. We want to thinkthis month sponsor introducing Gong Dot io the number one conversationintelligence platform for Sales Gong helps. You generate more revenue byhaving better sales conversations, it automatically captures and analyzesyour teams conversations. So you can transform your team into quotashattering. supersellers visit, Gondot io forward, ty sales hacker to get inon the action and see it lized and now, on with the show, I everybody and welcome to the saleshacker podcast. We've got a great episode today. My guest today is DavidPreemer, you may know David or you may have seen him on panels on the start up.Sales Circuit, but David has over twenty years operating experience inBto B tech sales beginning all the way back in one thousand, nine hundred andninety seven he's held every role in the sales organization. He's done.Direct sales service sales he's even been a sales engineer, and he himselfis a for time. Start up. Entrepreneur he's been through three acquisitions,the acquiring companies being in for IBM and sales force, he's been throughone IPO, a workbrain, and he also spent for five years at sales for says, a VPof sales and a growth evangelist which well figure out with that means,specifically in a few minutes since leaving his most recent post, which wasat influtive, he started a platform and a training organization called serebalselling and we're going to talk a lot about some of the concepts that he isevangelizing and advocating for the sales community, because I think thereare a lot of really interesting insights that are going to emerge fromDavid's work around using the brain and understanding the natural tendencies ofthe brain when you're selling, but first and foremost welcome David thanks.So much them an that was a great intro. It sounds so much better when you say Itry to give it path, some gravitass as you're, going through I'm thinking. Ohmy gosh, I'm thinking about all the challenges and things that we had to doin all those businesses. But it's pleasure to be with you here and thepleasure to connect with the saleshacker community. It may have beenme, but it also is the fact that three acquisitions, one IPO, that's prettygood stuff but, as I mentioned in the bio you've, been doing this for twentyyears, so give us the highlights of your sales career, and I think, we'respecifically interested in what you learned over the course of the lasttwenty years that ultimately led to you starting a sales, training and sort ofsales development platform called treepleselling yeah. I mean I say:There's there's two big things number one is just my background: Being aresearch scientist, kind of by education and then getting into salesby accident. Like most people tend to do you know, and in sales we don'tteach selling in. You Know University or higher education as much as weshould, and so most people tend to get into it by accident, but I was always avery curious person, which is why I really loved science and engineeringjust really trying to figure out the kind of the. Why right like? Why dothings happen? Why is this Gy Blue, and why does this happen and how does thisvacuum clean at work and just kind of taking it apart and then, when I gotinto sales and I started by career in solution engineering, it was anotherexpression of that curiosity allright. Well, why do people buy things and whydo they not buy things, and how am I going to you know showcase thissolution to make it seem like it's really really great, and so that wasjust from a curiosity background and I find that a lot of the best sellers outthere are very, very curious. The second thing that I found was just thatthe world's sales is changed so much I mean, I think, by default being insales, everyone especially customer start off hating you, because they havethis memory of this leazy use car salesman or some sales person in theirexperience. That kind of did them wrong, and but sales has evolved a lot. Thatsentiment is still somewhat pervasive, as you can imagine, but you know itused to be be. Twenty years ago there were no peere review sites. There wasno GTO crowd or trust radius for Captera. You know the Internet was athing, but people couldn't really figure out a lot of things about you.You know there was no s social proof so to speak, and what I found is happenedover the last twenty years. As you know, people have gotten access to moreinformation. Buyers are so much more empower, there's so many more solutionsout there that a lot of companies have...

...found- and I find that there's kind ofthis point of inflection every, let's say three to five years- that thetactics that they used to use to be successful in selling no longer workand so to me, that's kind of been those two things like the curiosity of the.Why of selling and the fact that sales keeps changing. You know, year after ayear, changes in technology, advances in market and so on, and so it's justbeen this fascinating evolution in a place where I want to you know, put theten pegs down and figure out how to help people. Are there specific tactics?You mentioned things that have stopped working. One of the things that I thinkis working less and less well is the sort of Aaron Rosstyle, predictablerevenue, plane, text, email saying you know: What's the right direction, areyou the right person in this department only because so many people are sending?Are there other tactics that you think are becoming less and less effective asyou sort of surveil this sales manscape yeah, absolutely mean Iam, a bigadvocate for never falling in love with your tactics- and you know things likeyou know, people whether you call it, for example, like the alligator email,I mean thiis one that a lot of people talk about things like where you know.If a prospect has gone dark on you, you send that email out to them and saysyou know: Hey ABC Our d, You know a all right, you're trapped under somethingheavy. That's right right, like those kinds of things like people, kind ofgive like the big old, Iye role now, and also, I think, there's you knowwhen I think about specific tactics. Here's like the example I think aboutall the time. You know how, when we drive in our cars, people, let's saydrive in their cars, they may engage in dialogue or thoughts or actions thatthey would never engage in. Otherwise if they were outside their car. Youknow what I'm saying Sam. I do know what you're saying I think about thatwhen I'm singing in the shower most of the time, something I wouldn't do inpublic, that's right, you know and Nget whe we're in our car and we'resurrounded by all the stealing glass like we're allowed to. You know we giveourselves permission to do these things, and I think that in sales you know weoften kind of historically think of ourselves as incapsulated that we wouldengage in activities that we would never engage in or that wouldn't workon us, but we just do it under the guys of like Oh ere in sales like we colldcall people and we're like hey. You know you have a few minutes to chat,you know, or you know we aske them, for example, like hey sim how you doingtoday. Meanwhile, you know that I don't care about how you're doing and- and Iknow that you know I don't care about how you're doing and so like we engagein these activities that CIMD of almost in a way like tohumanize us and kind ofput this layer of abstraction between selling and like the modern buyer, andso I think all of those tactics are just going away that people just wantto be treated like normal people and sellers should be treating theirprospective buyers in the same way that they would want to be treated. I hearyou I will say as a point of Mile: it's only a commentary. I just remember thisis an anecdote from my childhood. We were in the check outline at thegrocery store and the clerk said have a nice day, and I said to my dad becauseI thought it was really smartshit. I said Dad. Why does he say have an NiceDay says that to everybody I bette doesn't mean it and my dad said: Wouldyou rather he said, go fuck yourself. I said you know when you put it that way.It's a good point, there's a certain amount of social lubercant that we needin the course of our interactions. But I hear you so I'm still. If I col callsomeone, I'm still going to ask them if they're doing okay, but your point iswell taken so give us the foundation of erubral selling. You know you mentionedthat you have a background sort of in engineering and understanding howthings work so to speak. So walkus through some of the key tenants ofthree broselling yeah I'll, tell you. There are two tenants of cerebralselling, I'm going to boil them down for you right here. The first one is dothings that work. Do things that work right like look at what the data says,what the Science Sas and I'm not talking. You know the latest data aboutopen rates on this particular email subject line, because those are veryfleeting a can change, but the things that are been shown to scientificallywork in terms of persuasive tactics in terms of messaging tactics. So that'sit. We can get into those in detail, but that's the first one just do thingsthat work and number two don't be an asshole. You know by training classeswhere I say hey, you know and people smile and they laugh, but they knowwhat I mean. They know what I mean when...

I say: Don't be an asshole and there'sdifferent ways, especially when you're pitching a product you're handlingobjections, you're trying to get someone. Let's see your cold Callin em,the phone that make them feel not okay, they invoke the sleazy use car salesman.You Know Persona that every perspective buyer is on the lookout for right, andso it takes so little of that behavior to trigger it. So just do stuff thatworks be smart about what you use in terms of tactics and just don't be anasshole. So what's an example of being an asshole in the course of a typicalsales conversation that we should try to avoid and then to be, you knowproactive and suggestive. What are you recommendingly do instead, yeah, I meanso give an a example. I mean often times when you're handling an objection.Are you doing discovery with a customer there's declaration that you can makethat will help the customer decide whether or not the solutions for them?And that declaration is hey. Look this isn't for everyone right. Imagine I'mdoing discovery with you, Salmand I'm trying to sell you on some training andI say, Hey look. My approach is based on science and empathy and first classexecution, but you know hey look this isn't for everyone right, there's twoways I can go about that. I can say something like Hey Lok. You Know LookSam, I mean, I know my approach around science and empathy isn't for everyone.Some clients are looking for something that's a little bit more, a tacticalaround ABM or social selling, and my content tends to be a little bit moretimeless and a little bit more science and empathy based, it's not to say theother. Things are bad, but hey. You know what my thing isn't for everyone,and so you know. Maybe that's not for you. That's that's the okay way ofsaying it yeah that sounds okay, the other way of saying it. I could say:Well, Hey! You know what you know, so my training is really for people whoare looking to the future people who understand that what they're doingtoday isn't working my training is for exceptional people, aptional peoermediocre. So that's, okay! You can be mediocre. You want to be successful.You want to be leader of the pack you want to be. You know you want to be topof the dashboard. You would choose me, you know if you don't, then you theylook, I'm not for everyone, it's not for everybody! That's right! That's theasshole version right and there's an asshle version for everything. So I getthat's just an example right of how we would do it in discovery, but you knowyou think of it in terms of like yeah, that the concept of okay versus notokay, sometimes there's things that we do that make people feel not okay. Iwill say, though, in the spirit of conversation that cult first of all,because I've worked at many companies and by the way, like that's a very it's.A famous t's, almost like a Riffon googles, don't be evil right. Many ofthe values that you know sort of hip startups these days or like we have ano assholes policy. Then you unpack that and you try to figure out what isit? Actually it's, and maybe the truth of what I'm about to say is justbecause I'm an Asshole, I'm qitplaying about trivial definitions, butnevertheless, being an asshole actually a little bit more widely and one of theplaces it varies in sales is culturally. So there are tactics and sort ofconversational paradims that you can use when you're talking to somebody inBritain or or in Europe that you don't think they're an asshole, because inthe US and Canada they work just fine, but it's a little bit too direct, it'sa little bit too crude and it's not sort of elliptical enough for the styleof the culture. So I'll only say that sometimes being an asshole. Actually,the definition of it is slightly more variable than I think most people wouldassume it's true. Well, I mean ill I'll. Tell you something along those lines.Sometimes ITL work with clients and they'll say you know David. We needsome help, upleveling the dialogue of our team and that sentiment existsbecause of a concept. I call- and this is a block postwang that happen- Theasymmetry of experience, which essentially means that most of sellingin a lot of cases is a younger person calling on an older person. You knowwho's the buyer, whose job they've never done before right. So there'sthis a symmetry of experience. So how do we kind of en a level the playingfield, and so often times clients will say, Hey David? Can you help us uplevelthe dialogue of our younger sales teams so that they seem older on the flipside?You know there are lots of selling organizations where there, let's saymillennial sales, people selling, to...

...millennial buyers- and you know, forexample, using emogs in their email subject line would be totallyappropriate in those instances right and may not be where you're, you knowit' say a twenty four year old bdr calling on you know an evp of saleswhos. You know forty five years old ad, a big company right, and so the mostimportant thing is the leveling, like you said, like you might use a tactic,that's appropriate in one local versus another. That's because theyare rigyou're claying on the levels. I think it's actually important to be aware ofand sensitive to you know the other party, both in terms of theirdemographic location. So you use the right tactic, so you mentioned twobasic tenants right do stuff that works, don't be an asshole that is thefoundational Corpe of Srepal selling, but you also mention in these examples,you're also sort of referring to a foundation of empathy. So when you sayempathy, I think part of what you mean is what you just said, which isunderstanding the point of view of the buyer. But what else do you mean andsort of like what informs that philosophy? Yeah I mean so I thinkpoint of view of the buyer from the perspective of two things number one,the way you're reaching out to them and the way you're interacting with themand the words that you use just like the way I gave this example of you knowhow to handle objection. It's just it's the tone, it's the feeling and then theother way is in the words you know, specifically the pitch that you deliver,and you know what I find oftin times is that buyers are super busy and they'reinundated with messages right, and so they have very little time to care orfigure out what the heck it is we're talking about. When we talk about oursolution that revolutionizes, you know middleware connectivity between Blah,ah Blah, who no one cares right, and so the idea behind empathy can spill overinto things like messaging, where you are trying to help your customer, yourTard, castor, figure out what the hell it is. You do really fast right and notthe nuts and bolts of what it is you do, but like the big. So what so I meanimagine you were email marketing platform. LETSGIN. Everyone knows Hemamarketing platforms. You could say something like. Oh you know. We are anemail marketing platform that allows you to conduct. You know drip campaignsto r prospects and a sequence- and you know automatically- Does Bo Lah BlahLah bla and like okay, that's what you do right, but if someone doesn't reallyunderstand what EMA marketing is or they're inundated with a milliondifferent messages out there for email marketing, you might want to cutthrough with a message like we help customers improve their conversionrates by fifty percent. That's what we do, how we do. It is with this email,marketing and all these details right, but so thetis. When we pitch oursolution oftentimes I find most vendors pitch it initially as something tat'stoo detailed versus something that's actually going to get someone'sattention and make them lean in and say. Tell me more well, you are one hundredpercent correct when you say that I think it's certainly true. You know I'mthe new cro here at behavox and one of the things we're working on is exactlythat which is uplove. I guess I haven't used that word before, but now many isit. Since I heard you use it we're going to uplevel the messaging and it'soften a function of product, centric founders. It's often a good thing,which is that you have very product focus founders and for product focusorganizations that are just in love with all the cool stuff that they'vebuilt and they've also been selling to early adopters, who care about all ofthose specifics and as they cross the chasm so to speak. I think they need tomove the messaging from sort of what it does to why it does it and how it helpsself. An important customer problem, that's right in a way. So, yes, Icompletely agree, and I want that to happen in a way, I'm kind of hoping itdoesn't because I'll tell you for all the sales hactor community out outthere. I get lots of calls from founders of companies who are not salesor marketing people and they're ther more products. You know solution typepeople which is great and they call me up- and they say you know David, I'mtrying to grow the company here. You know we had a lot of great success,rearly on with our initial customers, so I went out and I hired four or fivesales raps and you know what they all suck. No one can sell, except for meand I'm not even in sales right and as...

I'm. Okay, I have heard that onemillion times always always is some kind of putdown on the people that theyjust ard. It's like you did hire these people, that's right, yeah, but theyre.You know, and they had experience but theire idiots they don't W, how to sellanything. I mean being facegious, but no I mean that is t e problem and theycome back, and I say: Okay Well, Loke tell me a little bit more about yoursales process and what it is you sell and they start going into details anddetails about like what it does and how it works. I'm like no one cares likethey care, eventually they'll care about that, but the first thing they'regoing to do. You know how you know we always say we eat with our eyes. First,yes, of course, you know, I believe we buy with our ears first right, like wekind of hear something that were by with our brains. First, we buy with ouremotions. We hear something and then we lean in, and so the question is: Howare we crafting messages that help people lean in and in a way, it's greatmarketing approach, great sales approach, but it's also very empatheticbecause it tells the buyer heyluck. We know that you don't have time to figurethis all out and we're going to kind of hit you with this message that you knowyou can either just take or leave, but it'll be something that's simple andeasy for you to understand. Yeah well, undervalue the value of simplicity,many many times so you teach discovery as part of your training curriculum tothe extent that I have many other interests in life and so anytime. I sayI'm obsessed about a topic and sales, it's always with a little bit of anastrics and pualifier, because it's wit's in the context of my wn of thatspecific interest. But I am obsessed about discovery because I feel likeit's where eighty percent of the sale happens and where not enough salesorganizations are actually doing enough. FOF The heavy lifting walk us throughsort of what you teach and some of the data and their perspectives that youshared around. I think also discovery face, speed, which was reallyinteresting. Insight, yeah absolutely mean I would agree with you that if wecan trace back a lot of the kind of e, the conversion of a customer prospectinto a pain customer back to the discovery process, and it's not justthe questions we ask, but it's how we position the value of our solution. Imean that's a huge inflection point, and so one of the things I think aboutwhen I think about like how to do really good discovery or a few thingslike that. Exclusionary principle of you know, hey look this isn't foreveryone. I don't know if this problem is big enough for us to help you solve.You know you might even invoke a mindset where you're like hey, look at.I know we're talking here in terms of discovery. I don't know if our solutionis a good fit for you. It's this mindset of the healthy sceptic, butwhat happens? is most sellers go into a discovery process with a what I callthe confirmation bias and the confirmation bias kind of works kind oflike this. Let's say I was going out on a dream date with SAM. I've been set upwith Sam and it's going to be amazing. Just sayin know it's going to beawesome is well that's the confirmation bias. I assume that it's going to be asa stimulated conversation, high leg, rubs nd with all that I go in, and Isay you know Sim could be the one. I've heard great things about Zam all thesegreat things and I go into the date thinking. Man Sam, could be the one andthat's the idea of confirmation bias. We tend to go into our discoveryprocess assuming that everyone's a great fit for us, and then we just lookfor evidence that they are and then what happens? Is We end up with I a lotof opportunities in our pipeline that are really going nowhere, and so, whenI actually looked at the data right and I looked at this data when I was atsales force- and I looked at it when I was at influitive- you know I kind ofgot a bunch of data points, Fror, ther, folks. What I found was, we spend moretime losing deals than winning deals, and so what does that mean? So I hespecifically. What did I do, and this would be an interesting experiment foryou to run in your own organization. People listening take a look at theamount of time that you spend in the discovery phase of your sale pcycle. Soif we're using whatever crm Oue using, you can measure right the length oftime you spend in the discovery phase of your sale cycle. Sometimes thatmight be the first one, two or three phases. If you have like. Let's say youknow like an eight sage or ten stage sales cycle and take a look at theamount of time you spend deals that you've won. Ultimately one and the thetime you spend the deals you ultimately lose now. Obviously, in deals that youlose you're not going to make it to necessarily stage four five, six orseven so on, but you'll at least make it usually to the first few stages andtake a look at the length of those sale cycles. What I found was that my teamswere spending three times as long...

...losing deals, meaning they spent threetimes as long doing discovery when they ended up losing a deal versus winningthe deal right, and why was that? You know it was because you know we havewhen we go in with a confirmation bias. We have happiears, we say: Oh thiscustomers probably going to be a good fit yeah. They went a little dark on me.It's okay like I'll, just kind of keep it live right versus when we go in withlike a tight message, good discovery right we go in with the right kind ofinsights. We come out with the right kind of insides. We can move thatcustmer along faster. They acquiesce to our message as well, because we did agood job of explaining what the heck it was. We did in the early onset of thatsale cycle and they were more bought in right and so again, like you can pickthat apart and you can say well that may not be the case. Here may not bethe case there, but I have thousands of data points that say that you know wedefinitely spend more time losing than we do winning. So the key is trying tofigure out all right. Well, how do we eliminate that confirmation bias? Howdo we just focus on like the good fit opportunities so that we can be morejudicious more efficient in our discovery? So how do we do that? It's agood question. So there's a few things right, so we talk about eliminatingthat confirmation bias right. So maybe Sam isn't the one right, and so weinvoke our bit of a challenge. Our mindset, we say: Hey, look this isn'tfor everyone! You please see the previous comment about being anOssehole versus not an asshole right, so you got to make sure you'repositiong that correctly quantifying the value, the problem for the customerright. So helping them understand, hey look! You know! This may not be a bigenough problem for us to solve and and kind of using that as a bit of wedge toget them to come back and help you quantify the value. The Messaging Right,often times you know when I listen to a lot of discovery, calls for my clientsand something as simple as you know, hey typically, Sam Wen. I speak to acustomer like you there's three things that I hear right or here's the one bigproblem, they're, typically looking to solve. You know often times we go intodiscovery. We don't prime the pump enough like we start asking questionsand the customers trying to figure out alright how these guys kind of fittingin with US and one of the the big things I'm a fan of. Is this idea ofcutting people a little bit in discovery right and when they saycutting people I mean you know, there's back to there' three ways to sell aband aid. You can look for peoples, t cuts and Sellman Bandad. You can findpeople who are afraid of getting cuts and Sollmon Bandad or you can cutpeople right and somethen sell in the bandaid and when you're doing discovery.One of the best ways of cutting people so to speak is to label their pain isto invoke the fears and pain and challenges of similar customers andoftentimes. The customers that you're speaking to when you do discovery,aren't consciously aware that they have those problems until you crystallize itfor them right, and so, if you're able to go in with a healthy skeptic mindsetright help, pull out the value for the customer, but go in with a very highconviction and polarizing pitch where you're labeling their fears in bringingthem out. You are ultimately going to end up with a discovery. Call that ismuch more impactful and you'll be in a much better position to decide heywhether or not this is the right thing for the customer you'll, also throughyour power of conviction, in still a much greater sense of alignment withyour customer and they're going to be more likely to come back to you.Instead of going dark, which is part of the challenge with poor discovery. Isthere a recent client? Obviously, don't have to name them, but just like aspecific example that helps sort of bring all of this to light,particularly when you think about you, know the Bandad and cutting people sothat they need the bandage etcet yeah. I mean I'll, give you an example. Soone of the great clients I work with they do network security networkmonitoring for Mando service providers, and so theybe can basically go into ayou know, perspective client and so imagine, what's a manof serviceprovider. This is, let's say your a company and you have your itinfrastructure and you don't want to manage it. So you outsource that tosomeone else, another a company who manages your Itin Frastructure and thiscompany would actually manage it infrastructure for a bunch of othercompanies as well, and so now I'm selling up technology into these MSPsright and that technology helps them map the networks of their customer andidentify problems and so on, and I...

...could go in and start leading with. YouKnow Hey, you know we have this great technology and wild help map thenetworks of your customer and pick up all. You know these issues and allthese kinds of things, and wouldn't that be great right, but rather thansell it that way. They're now going in and they're saying, hey you need toMSPs. You need to find the problems in your customers network, for they doright, because we've all felt the sting when a customer calls us with a problemthat we should have been on top of, and we should have been the one to tellthem, and so I love that pitch because it is it's actually correct right, likethat's. Why you're in MSP, in the first place, you're trying to you, knowmanage thet work for your customers, but, oh boy, you don't want to be in aposition where your customer finds a problem and calls you with it. FirstRight, you want to bring it to them. It's like we're all seeing tnow withall these data breaches that are happening all over the place. You knowit's one thing when you know it kind of it's discovered after the fact, when acompany is more forthcoming with it different story, but so in that sensethe pitch is really powerful because it relies on heighit's a high convictionmessage. It invokes emotion and it cuts the prospect. So if the prospect hat,you know wasn't think, was thinking about, should I buy this or should Inot by this now they're thinking? Oh my gosh? Well, I don't want to be on thereceiving end of an irate customer call who's telling MOU that I should havefound a problem that you know that they found first. So I really love thatexample. That's a great example: I'v Reminded of this book, the secrets ofquestion base selling and he's a similar example o right the beginningof that book when it comes to selling alarm security systems, but we can talkabout that later. One of the last topics that I just am super interestedin that that you focus on is objection handling, and I was reading this blogpost that you wrote about the five intent categories related to like mostobjections and then how to think about handling those objections, walk usthrough that framework, because I think it's very very helpful when we'rethinking about the differences between you know, sort of like emotion, base,objections and logic based objections, yeah, I now absolutely so you know. Weall know that it oftentimes when a customer states an objection. It's likean iceberg right like what we see is actually not the real objection. Sohere's a fun little exercise to go through in your own business in sales.One of the most common objections that we get is budget. It's too expensive.That's really expensive right! Well now what do we do and so go in your owncompany and write down the objection it's too expensive and then a blankafter it and try to fill in the blank with how as many examples of like it'stoo expensive? Oh, it's too expensive for what for the budget for the valueright for what we're getting for this time of year for the size of theproblem 's going to solve it's too expensive, because my Buddy Sam worksat another company whose product I'm going to buy instead and no matter whatprice you're offering I'm just going to say it's too expensiveright. So it'sreally important to understand the intent. Well like what was the intentbehind that objection and some intents are very logical, like hey, I'm justtrying to get the answer. Is Your application available in Spanish? Ijust want to know the answer and then others, you know, might be extremelyemotionally charged and they are an attempt by the the buyer to derail yoursale cycle. So, for example, a byer might say: Isn't it true that you werejust sued by one of your biggest customers due to breach ofconfidentiality or a data, breach? Isn't that true right? Even if it's nottrue right now, it's out there. The question is to really figure out when acustomer loves in an objection. What is the root cause of that objection sothat you can address the root cause and not what is stated on the surface? Sowhen somebody says, isn't it true that you ere just sued for databreach and toyour point, that seems like a derailing sort of almost emotional type ofobjection, where they're not really looking for it's a Gatcha game andmaybe they are predisposed against you for some particular reason. What do yourecommend in that situation? How do you handle that in the derailing situation?Yeah Yeah? Well, so the good news is that most objections tend to fall inthe middle of the spectrum, meaning you know we're not so lucky to get allobjections that are just you know, logical questions and we don't oftenget objections that are meant to completely derail us. But you know myadvice if someone does have an to...

...derailing objection. Part of thechallenge is that some of these things can sound the same, like you could saythe same thing and one they intend could be to derail or can just be tounderstand right, usually people. You know it's like the villains and movieswhere they're sitting there twirling their mustache Reao most derailingobjections. Don't present, you know as overtly as that. But you know one ofthe the best ways is just to kind of start simply right. Like start simple,with a symplelogical objection handle because that's going to be your weather,balloon right, you're going to try and say: Okay like maybe this isn'tactually a derailing. Oh No, in fact, like we weren't sued, Oh Yeah Kno,there was a law, sweet, be in all honesty, but it actually wasn't relatedto a day to breach at all right and then see what they say and if they keepcoming at you right with like wel one o no well, I actually heard it was youknow ABNDC, then you can start picking it apart. Sometimes, when you getoffered a derailing objection, one of the solutions is to actually try to doa bit of an organizational map. There could be, for example, the personthat's giving. The objection is just a lone ranger and someone who is justtrying to give you a hard time, but you might have other fans within theorganization and you might be able to compart mentalize. This particulardemailing objection. No again, this isn't you know whee we're, not reaninga training course on the podcast here, but you know that's definitely handlinga derailing objection, s one of the most difficult, and so my advice isalways like start simple, with your kind of trial balloon and start pickingit a part to see like what the actual objection is. I think the last pointyou made, though, is actually it's almost to your point about. You knowthe last twenty years, the evolution of sales. I find that so much of the timea lot of people's opinions are decided before they enter the room, and so theidea of trying to overcome somebody that is vehemently opposed to you isit's just not often. Sometimes it's just not possible. What you have to dois really understand their role in the organization and, frankly, if they'reabove the power line and if they have influence and if they have influence inthere, the economic buyer and they hate you well, then we're going to have tolose that deal, unfortunately, but if they don't have influence or there's away to isolate them, and you can support you know other champions thathave more positive views than maybe that's the way to do it, and so I thinkthat's that's a good insight. It's true and I think it every deal. I think oneof the questions that you know all sellers need to ask is: Can we win this?You kno can't mean we all want to have the bravado and hold out hope, butagain like we need to be very focused in judicious with tour time ill. Giveyou an example. I mean another Clienti was working with we kind of wentthrough this whole discussion of discovery and how you know we spendmore time losing than winning, and I had by the way tons of data from salesforce. That said, similar things, in fact, the data that I had from my teams-and this was you know- I had seventy sales reps across three differentcities. One of the things that I found was that the teams that had the lowestamount of old pipeline, meaning their pipe, was generally young and fresh,had higher levels of quota Atainment, and so there was one sales rep in thecompany. I was training that kind of came back to me after the firstdiscovery session and said you know, Hey David, I kind of took your adviceto heart. I was managing three hundred opportunities, active opportunities andI cut that opportunilist down to seventy five. Now again, I'm not youknow. This is like you need the support of your leadership team here. You knowon no one wants to see that much pipeline necessarily evaporate, butwhen he did that he ended up over the next selling carried hit three hundredpercent of his quota right now, what's Ta deal size on this Customerc jutscurious. Well, this particuar customers, like it's a monthly a month a monthcontract. I believe you know. Typically you kno. Let's say two to threethousand dollars a month: Okay, interesting because three hundredopportunities ridoculous as the kids might say, that's true it is it isabsolutely, but you know I think, all of us. You know if you were to thi herif you're on the podcast listening now and you're thinking about your pipelineand if I were to ask you on a scale of one O, ten ten being that pipeline isair, drum tight, spick and span a hundred percent legit and one beingit's complete. You Know Vapor. Where would you find yourself on that list?I'm not asking anyone to out themselves on the podcast here, but I'm willing tobet that there is wiggle room in terms of the you know the veracity of thatforecast to maybe cut out some of the opportunities that are not most likelyto happen. The most straightforward way...

...of answering that question would be toinvoke some kind of methodology like a medic, some way of scoring the deal sothat you can have an objective point of view on whether or not you've met thecritter unioed. Do you have a favored methodology when it comes to you know,sort of like valueselling that you use? You know what here's the approach thatI use and I'm an there's nothing wrong with medic or or any of the other ones.I love like the evidenced base approaches. So imagine you were calledinto your CEO's Office Ho. You were called in front of the your board ofdirectors and they started picking apart every deal in your pipeline.Would you be able to defend right in a court of law or in front of thesepeople? The validity of those particular deals? Could you defend it?Is there a story? Is there a narrative like if you're ever concerned, pick adeal run through that narrative in your head? Well, you know, we know thisabout the customer. This was the compelling event. This is the timelinewe're working with this person. They have such and such power, but you know-and if you can tell a compelling narrative to the CO of your company oryour Bord of directors, I'd say that you're in good shape right. If youcan't the either there're still more work to be done, and I'm not saying youshould det out be not saying you should circumvent work right. This can be acontroversial topic because there might be some folcas Ay hold on a SEC. Theywould like don't dead out opportunities just because they're not hitting thecenter of the target right. I'm certainly not advocating for that. Ifthere's more work to be done, there's more work to be done, but you knowusing that methodology of you know, hey look! If you had to defend this to yourCEO, you got called in front of Mark Benny off and he's picking the parthe's like David. What's up with this deal right, would you be able to defendit very good? I think I could defend most of the deals in our pipe lint. Soby that standard I think we're doing. Okay, we've got a few minutes left.This has been and outstanding conversation. Well, let's pay itforward a little bit I like to have a sort of a part at the end of everyconversation where we highlight great vendors, so great technology tools thatyou're using and give some love and support to the folks that are out therebuilding great products and also other great leaders and mentors that havehelped you along the way. So, first in terms of technology, because there's somuch that can go into a sales and marketing text ack these days eitherbecause you've encountered it at your clients when you're doing consulting orbecause you have strong points of view, any great tools that emergeparticularly new ones, that you know we should be aware of. That's a goodquestion it sales for us. We will primarily use a lot of really greatsales force technologies, and I think you know, as it relates to crm sales.vers is still a really a great standard and infludive. We used a lot ofdifferent technologies. Certainly, a fan of you know the of the supportingtechnologies like the dockey signs of the world, and we also used a greattool called Gong, which I know probably many of your listers have heard of anan no. They sponsor many saleshacker events just really helpful to getinsights into the kind of the things that you're saying and the differentcomplexion of your various call. So I really liked Gong as an example- andyou know, and I'm also a fan a- and this is kind of like you know there aresome tools that actually I really really like in these categories, buteveryone should have an email, trackor tool. I know everyone, you know a lotof these are embedded right now and Tyour seriums and other tools like tols,like you know, yes, weare and Iq and box, and so on. My personal favoriteright now is a tool called mixmax you've heard of mixbacks, but I usemixmax all the time. It's really fantastic in terms of email, trackingscheduling and all that kind of stuff. I use it every day, so I willdefinitely recommend that if people want to check it out, I like Mixmax, tothe only thing I didn't like Ha Theu'r out there was that so many of thesecompanies these days, you sign up for they're, still running. I think likeplaybooks, that are a little bit out of date, and so you sign up for theservice. They embed themselves everywhere they integrate witheverything they suck up all your data, and then they put you on constant, likeproduct marketing drip campaigns like that just blow up your inbox and I findit a little intrusive, but I do think that the technology that mixmexasdeveloped is really really good and they integrate so many different thingswithin one platform that I find it quite useful yeah. You know everyonehas their own little favor ind. It also depends. You know how it fits with allthe other things that you're using. But you know- and I agree- and you do get alot of these emails, but you know easy enough to turn them off and I find themthat MOS vendors are respectful of...

...those things. That's true, the otherone on my shit list. Right now is quip, but we can talk about that later, allright, so V, piecof sales or mentors who should we know about. You knowyou're out there on the circuit you're talking a lot of folks who are some ofthe key people that influence you that you're inspired by yeah, I mean youknow the one that comes to mind. I'm a big fan of his Tony Redoney back atsales force he's like the wise sage, the the Phill Jackson always come,always consistence. You know always helpful, but always pushes you and Ithink those are kind of the leaders that you love working with over thecourse of your career, the ones that make you you know can allege of theanswer. Help you become better. I know I'm not alone with Tony has touched.Many people at sales, forceand beyond sales, leader amazing person, andreally grateful for my time with him, nawsome any books, movies podcast, anycontent that you think we should consume to help improve ourselves. Ohmy goodness! Well, if you go over to my website, I have treebrol sellingcom. Ihave an article and it's called top. Sales reads: to improve empathy, focusand tactical execution, and what's interesting, is that most of the booksthat I really love is. They relate to sales, actually aren't sales books atall or if they're, not over, at leas sales books, they're about focus andexecution and prioritization, and just understanding the psychology of selling,and so one of my favorite books, which you'll see it's the first one listwhich I force on everyone is called the one thing, the surprisingly simpletruth behind extraordinary results. I love that book. I Love Damn pinks tosell as human. You know. These are just kind of great broadbrush books that canhelp you understand the world of selling the world of focus andprioritization. The last one I would recommend is a book. It's called Yes,fifty scientifically proven ways to be persuasive and again these aren't. Youknow these ar we're not trying to learn Jedi mine tricks here, we're not tryingto make people do things that they don't want to. Do that's what thenegative impression people have of sales people, but you know all of theselittle tactics that you can kind of pick up along the way. Wi'll definitelyhelp you and the great thing is for most sellers is that you're probablyalready doing a lot of these things, but you're doing them unconsciously,and once you figure out, you know why you're doing them and how to focus themthey're going to be even be more impactful. So I love books like thatand if I can just give one more shout out just to read, just read everyone.You know it's one of these things. I wrote an article a couple weeks ago:it's called the three surprisingly simple things that top salesprofessionals do, that others don't and the number one thing is read. Forty twopercent of college students will never read another book after they graduate,which is a crying shame, because there's so many great insights andpieces of knowledge out there and people write those things down andthings called books and if you just read them, then you'll know them too.So please read commit to being better every day. That's part of the cerebralselling mantra right is like you, gotta be getting better every day, because ifyou're not, then you are going to be one of those sales, people that ruinsit for the rest of us when you act like an asshole and you then propagate thatnegative stereotype, so please commit to being better every day and act withempathy. There was a guy, a sales fella that a couple companies ago at Axil,and we were going around this circle. We were like doing some kind of standupsaying: What's the last grapebook we read or what' books have inspired us,because obviously I like to read as well- and he said: Well, you know booksaren't really my thing Readingis, not my thing. I really like to watchyoutube and watch movies. Suffice it to say he did not. Last very long now.Look it's okay! You know! If you there's lots of different ways now toconsume. You know, reading content, you can get summaries, you can listen tobooks on. You know the books on tape doesn't exist, but I'm sure there's asimilar thing now you know just consume contents. Don't keep doing the samething that you're doing over and over again, because you're just going to getpassed up and you're not going to be in tune with some of the latest challengesand opportunities in the market, so just keep making yourself smarter,absolutely David. Thank you! So much for being a guest, I'm sure yourwebsite, Sre Wel sellingcom, is a very easy way to connect with you. If youwant to talk to David or hire thim as a...

...consultant or employ some of thes threeproselling strategies. Thanks again- and I look forward to talking you soonpleasure thanks so much for atmy, SIM, Hey everybody at Sam's corner anotherfantastic conversation, this time of David Premer, who runs erebol sellingbut has been working in sales management sales, Ik Sur for twentyyears. I liked a lot of what David had to say, particularly as anybody thatknows me knows. I'm obsessed with the discovery phase. I really think that'swhere eighty percent of the sale happens so many time sellers come to meat the end of a salcycle and they say what can you do to salvage this? Thepersonas gone dark the person es not no longer responsive. We receive thisobjection right at the end and most of the time you can trace it upstream towhatever happened in the discovery process, so the crocks of discovery,whatever methodology Yore using whatever framework you're using thecrux of it, is asking questions the more questions you ask, the more youemploy that Matcic award. Why the more successful you'll be one final thingI'll say, and I've said this to a lot of people that I work with over theyears when they're talking you have the power and you're talking. They have thepower too many people, particularly young wraps. They are not comfortablewithsylence and they fill up that meeting with so much Gobbledegook, andso much talking, don't talk so much. You want it to be so that they aretalking to thirds o the time, and you are talking one third of the time andin fact many of these call recording technologies. These calm onogoringsystems like Gong, or course, etc. They're actually going to diagnose that,for you and the point of it is that you should not talk so much. You need toask simple questions and get the prospect to reveal themselves toallthrough the discovery face. This has been Sam's corner. Thank you. So muchfor listening to check out the show, notes, see upcoming guests and playmore episodes from our incredible lineup of sales. laters visit sales,hackercom podcast. You can also find the sales hacking podcast on itunes orGoogle play or anywhere that you consume your podcasts. If you enjoyedthis episode, please share with your peers on linked in twitter or elsewhere.Special thinks again to this month's sponsors at Gong, see more Gongdot, IO,forrd, sh sales tacker. And finally, if you want to get in touch with me, youcan find me on twitter, at Sam f Jacobs or on Linkdon at Linkdoncom, a andSamof Jacobs, Senext Time.

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