The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

13. Using the Science of Perfect Timing to Improve Sales Outcomes w/ Dan Pink

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Tune in to episode 13 of the Sales Hacker podcast with Dan Pink, WSJ and NYT bestselling author as we talk about the importance of time management in sales.

One two one thr three fo: Everybody at Sam Jacobs, welcome to thesales hacker podcast withbout, an incredible episode: Outcoming withWorld Famous author Dan Phinks, I'm so glad you're listening a couple messagesthat we want to share with you before we get started. The first is from oursponsors at air call. Thair calls a platform to make every conversationcount. They empower sales and support teas to ace every call with the phonesystem specifically built for their favorite business tools. Now I happento know the company pretty well they've, been growning very, very quickly, oneof the Nice things about air call. is they integrate directly with all ofyour custumer support systems like Sendus? It's really really easy andseemless. They have a selfservice product and additiontal PODICOL forteams. They've been growing five to six sex of the last couple of years andthey're, just a phenomenal company and ther custumers lover. Theyve got over athousand customers, including in fact Han the actual numbers over threethousand companies worldwide. Some of the customers include seagake, ooger,Birch box and and if you're in New York, I know they have a very strong presencein New York. So take a look at aircall. The website is air called that io onemore thing before we get started. We've got a lot of folks listening outthere and sharing some of our content on Lindin, and I just can't tell youhow how appreciative we are at the salesacker podcast of all of the folksthat have been writing in. So I want to start doing a thing where we, where wementioned some of the folks that have reached out to me overlinked in andgiving them a little bit of a shoutout in appreciation for for their support.Three folks, today, Lenny Fernandez, Shane, black and Sleigh huff sle huff,has has been buying. Some of the books that we've been recommending on thePODCAST Lenny Fernandez has sent me a lot of really nice messages. So Ireally appreciate it and shame black really liked our episode with DavidPremer, so Shane Lenni Sleig, thanks so much for listening if you're out thereand you want to shoot me a note and you have ideas for new episodes. Please letme know because we're excited we always want to get better, and if you haveguests that you think would be interesting, send them my way andwithout further ado, let's take a listen to Dan pank thanks so much Ieverybody. Welcome back to the Sales Hacker podcast today is a very, veryspecial episode. We've got probably the most celebrated person to appear yet onthe PODCAST. But beyond that somebody, that's actually been a very biginfluence on my life personally. So let me first tell you about him. So damnink is our guests today he's the author of six provocative books, including hisnewest, when the scientific secrets of perfect timing, which has spent fourmonths on the New York Times best sellar West, has other books includethe long running newyork times, bes seller a whole new mind and the NumberOne New York Times best sellers drive and to sell US human. His books haveone multiple awards and have been translated into thirty seven languages.He lives in Washington, DC home of the Stanley Cup champion Washigman capitalswith his wife and their three children. Welcome down. Thank you for having meSam. I would never would have expected anybody would have introduced me ashaling from the home of stanly hup champions, but it's great it's awonderful time inexistence, despite all of the other bad things that arehappening. Well, I'm hoping that it clears a path for my beloved Washingtonnationals to break their curse. I think this is the year. I was exactly justthinking that, and there was anyway we can talk about DC sports at lengths,but the only bad part of all of it was that Bryce Harper was a Las VegasGolden Nights, Fan which was disapprinment well. Another signal thatit might be is last year here in the nations cap exactly maxters Ar Theuh,undoubtedly the syyum of the national legue. If Yo ask me, I have two spirit:animals maxurs are and James Harden there you go, that's who I want to bewell, I'm hoping that you have a James, harenstyle beard right now. I don't. Idon't know if I could even grow that that is the kind of aspiration- that'seven too high for me, Sam Neverhless, all right so back to serious businesshere you know den, it Wull be helpful,...

...you've written so many amazing booksand just for the folks out there. I first came to know about Dan throughhis book to sell, has human and then his Ted talk on the science ofmotivation is one of the ten most watched of all time with more thantwenty million views, and I regularly citit in sort of discussions about howto motivate people so tell us how you got into writing such interesting booksand where inspiration comes from and just sort of gives us a little bitabout your evolution, because it's always interesting to hear where peoplecome from. Okay, so I SAR I came to the path of being a writer or the kind ofRiteram. Now I think most people indorect stumbling fits and starts kindof way. I started out my working life with a law degree and no desire topractice law, so instead I started working in politics, which is somethingthat I was at the time very keenly interested in. I worked in a number ofjobs in politics, like campaigns on capital, Hill for cabinet official andfor reasons again, another set of really just kind of random halfassreasons. I became a political speech writer because it was something that Icould do marginally better than other people who were in the office that Becawhat I did and I liked it man. I was pretty good at it, and I became chiefspeechwriter to Vice President now, Gore, one thousand nine undred andninety fie o wr t ne Tousand, nine hundred and in sixt o one thousand ninehundred and ninety seven later in Nineteen Ivey, seven affer a couple ofyears. You don't knew me that I didn't want to work in politics, the rest ofmy life. In fact, I didn't want to work in politics anymore, and so what Ireally wanted to do was right under my own byline rigte, my own stuff, andthis is something that I had always done on the side, something that I haddone ever since I was in college writing particles and essays and opbeds,and things like that for magazines and newspapers. I always considered it kindof a hobby in a sense, something that I did that wasn't really like my job ors,just something I did because I thought it was kind of fun and and interesting,but took me into my early thirties to say: wait a second. This might be whatI do, and so that's when I started so thiss is now twenty one years ago and Iwent to work for myself again, not a wild, crazy decision, because my wifekept her job. When I quit my dum, she didn't leave her job or her salary orher health insurance, and I said then let me just try to make it writing. Myown stuff see how it goes, and that was twenty one years ago, and you know whatI've tried to do as much as possible is right about things that I was deeplyinterested in, and there are two reasons for that. First is that if Iwriting a book is really really hard, it's a giant pain and if you don'treally love your material, it's going to be even more miserable and you're,probably not going to write a good book. Second, is that I've always felt likeif I'm interested in something, then other people be interested in it that Idon't think of that. I have extreme taste or exalted taste or speciallyrefined taste that, if there're things in my life that I'm wondering aboutwhether it's hey, what kind of skills are my kids going to need in aworkforce where work is easier to be outsourced and automated? How do youreally motivate people at work, he's selling a noble profession or somethingsleezy? How do you make better decisions about when to do things? Ialways teught t. You know if I'm wondering these things and other peopleare wondering it too, and so I written these six books again really driven bymy own interests and trying to figure out what makes people tick what peopleactually do at work, how they can do it better and I've always been fascinatedby work as a lens, because we spend half O erwoking hours over a half orwaking hour, sometimes at work, and so it becomes this great way to study whohuman beings are why they do what they do. What are their conflicts? How dothey work together? What are their aspirations? What are their hassles,and so that's what I've tried to do. I have again I've been working for myselffor twenty one years. I started out working on the third floor of my house.Then we moved and I was promoted to the garage behind my house, so I've neverhad an office that wasn't at my house well, and I can actually hear the birdsin the background right now. Any real yeah there are, I mean, is springtimehere and it's the end of the springtime here in Washington. As we're talkingand seriously, it's annoying thos guys are awash with Chirping Birds. I findit quite pleasant, actually it's sort...

...of Doy, okay, good patoral picture. Solet's talk about your most recent book, it's incredibly fascinating and I thankcourse relevant for sales people. It's called when tell us a little bit. Youknow more about it, so this book is about the science is timing and that'sreally the main idea of the book. As I said as wwas talking about in thatlengthy overview of my life and times what generally promts me to write books,Isare my own questions and again the assumption that other people areprobably dealing with things that are similar, and in this case the questionthat I was asking myself out of frustration was: How can I make betterdecisions about when to do things so yeah, because in the course of the daya week at life, you make all kinds of winneses when in the day should I dothis kind of work one of the day should I do that kind of work? When should Iexercise? When should I start a project? When should I stop a project yeah, whenshould I make a sales call? When should I not mega sales called, and I wasmaking the decisions in a very sloppy way? I wanted to make them in a moresystematic way and someone who has studied behavioral science spent a lotof time. Looking at the research in a number of different realms in a numberof different books. I said I wonder if there's any research out there on thistopic of when to do things and it turned out. There was a huge amount ofresearch on this question. It was spread across many many many differentfields, and so it took some Coralin. But what I found is that, while we makemost of our comy decisions based on intuition and guess, work, that's thewrong way to do it. We should be making them based on this rich body of scienceand evidence and data, and so the book lays out the science of when to dothings. How does a pattern of the day affect what we do and how we feel aboutit? Why do braks matter? How Do Beginnings Affect Us? How do endingsaffect us? How to mid points effect us how to group synchonize Om time, and sothe goal is to give people a taste of the science tased the evidence, butthen also direct them into some very simple cractical tactical things theycan do to make better decisions in their own life. So you know justjumping off into that from that starting point. The first part of thebook which I've read talks about that, as you mentioned the hidden pattern ofeveryday life and that there are times when to make decision, so walk usthrough that, because that was obviously extremely interesting andhelps you know we're doing. As I mentioned before, we started reportingwe're doing this podcast at two PM, thiis, a very significant part of theday when maybe we are more inclined to perhaps dislike each other. Well, Iwouldn't go that far. I would say that it is a suboptimal time of day, butthere are things that we can do about it about which more in a moment hut.The idea here is that, if you look at again- and I think one of theinteresting things about this particular topic is that there is afield called cronobiology, which is a study of our biological rhythms. Butbeyond that this, this study of timing is something that's studied indifferent ways by many many different disciplines. It's been studied in awhole array of life sciences and Medical Sciences, so antesysiology AndoChronology molecular biology, but it's also been studied in an array of socialsciences, whether it's social psychology, economics, anthropologylinguistics and what it tells us, at least at the unit of a day, which is avery important unit, because a day of something we can't control right mean,like you know, we're on a planet and that planet makes a turn every singleday and that turn that pattern of the day has a profound effect on our move.Ind Our performance- and I think, what's interesting about it- is that somany scholars and so many different fields, different fields using so manydifferent disciplines, keep coming to the same conclusions and the mainconclusion here and I think in terms of your listenter Sam, whether they aretheir sales reps, whether thereare sales be pes whether the sales managers,whether the chief revenue officers or whatever, is this that ourcognitivabilities oure brainpower doesn't stay the same throughout theday. It doesn't stay static throughout the day it changes okay. So your mentalsharpness is not the same at different times of day now, at some level we kindof sort of knew this intuitively, but at other levels we didn't, and so forme, for instance, when I felt like Oh wait a second I'm feela sharp right now,I thought of that. As you know, a weakness as something peculiar right,and it's really not so our cogam...

...abilities aren't the same throughoutthe day. They change they change in predictable ways, and sometimes theychange in pretty extreme way, so that the difference between the daily highpoint in the daily lowpoint can be quite large, and when we do somethingdepends on what it is that we do and it's so it's possible to take it'spossible to discern a pattern of the day and to figure out when to docertain kinds of work at the right time. Yeah I will paraphrasean and then youcan correct me and Addon, but is it accurate that at the barrest esenceit's that you know you do sort of Nou as Cognitiv your high cognitive loadactivities in the morning that during the afternoon, there's sort of a troghperiod where both, I guess, there's more negativity generally across thehuman race, but also specifically, your ability to sort of process difficultanolytical decisions is oosed and then there's sort of a surge as you movetowards the evening, and we need to be mindful of that. Is that is that anaccurate? You know summary, that's pretty accurate. Let me make a coupleof refinements here, because there is some nuance in this. So at the start,some of this depends on. What's known, I mentioned the field of ponobiologybefore chronobologist have talk about what's People's chronotype right andthat's basically a propensity o you wake up early and go to sleep early. Ifyou wake up late and go to sleep late or you somewhere in between and so partof, the patter of the day is determined by your chronotype and again it'ssomething that is heavily INA heavily biological. It varies a little bit oververysometimes significantly over age, but the Git of it is this about fifteenpercent of us one. Five percent of us are pretty strong morning. People larksget up early, feel energetic super energetic in the morning, but twentypercent of US ar owls get up late and actually feel super energetic and acutemuch much later in the day in the late afternoon early evening, Med eveningeven later in the evening, and then about two thirds of us are in themiddle, where what I call them. Third Birds, were you know a little bit ofboth and so figuring out. Your chronotype, which is actually fairlyeasy to do, is the first start here first step here I mean. Actually Idon't want to be opaque. We could figure out your chronotype Sam inthirty seconds. If you wanted, I've already decided, I'm Talark, let's testes, go, let's touch your intuition. So if there's a a standard, sychologicalassessment called the munichonotype questionnaire the mctq. That is a wayto assess this, but there's a back of the envelope way as well, and so, let'sjust check yours I mean literally, we can do it in thirty seconds, so I'msure to think Sam about what's called a free day a Free Day Free Day as a day,you don't have to wake up to an alarm, clock and you're. Also, you know notmassively sleep, deprived and trying to catch up on sleep. So Yo left your owndevices. What time would you typically go to sleep when you don't Wen, youhave a Freeday, you don't have to wake up at a particular time. You don't havean Alarn, tout, Wu'd, say tenthirty, PM, N thirty PMAND, then what time wedtypically wake up? Seven M seven am if I have no professional obligations,yeah great. So what we're talking about here then, is that w what we're tryingto do is figure out your midpoint of sleep. So what we have here istenthirty to seven, so that would be how mi it' we got a half hour there,let's figure this out here. I can make it sixthirty an he get eas her. Let'smake it sixthirty to make it easier eight hours, so your midpoint of sleep,wouldbe ton, thirty correct! That's what to figure out. Okay, so and what'.The research shows is that if your midpoint of sleep on a free day isbefore three thirty you're, probably Alark, if your midpoint of sleep isafter five, thirty am you're, probably an Allan. If it's between five thirtyand THR thirty you're, probably intermediate lat- I call a third bird,so you'R, definitely a Lark so that that makes sense. So your intuitions arspot on and here's what we know again. I don't want to take too much timetalking about this, but way to think about. It is as follows: Even simpleway is like we have ouls and we have nonouse right. Most of US marks peoplein the middle tend to move to the day,...

...exactly, as you say, Sam in threestages, a peak, a troughor recovery peak early in the day, profh in themiddle of the day. Recovery later in the day, owls are much much morecomplicated, much more complicated. They sometimes will go through the dayrecovery Rou peak, but they will hit their peak far far later in the day. So,let's you say an outside very hard, because conventional work schedules aredesigned to crush their spirits. But let's take someone like you forinstance, or me: I'm not a Lark, I'm in the middle but Marky we tend to move tothe day, exactly as you say, in those three stages: Peak Trouh, ecover peakearly in the day early in the day. That's when we are most vigilant andthat's the key word: that's whe R, most vigilant we're able to bat awaydistractions. So during the peak you're better off able to do work that youshould be doing work that requires we do missing the analytic work work. Therequires analysis, focus heads down attention, eliminating distractions,writing a report, analyzing data, whatever that is all right. So for mostof us, it's early in the day. Now for you, you might want to begin doing that.You know actually an hour earlier than me or forty five minutes earlier thanme. Exlike, we can't say whin in the particular moment. Everybody should doit, but in general, early in the day, your higher in vigilance, that's whenyou should be doing analytic work during the trough that comes between inthe early to mid afternoon. That's a very, very dangerous time for people,there's a surge in medical errors. I mean an incredible difference andproblems: An hospitals, declining handwashing in hospitals,overprescribing of antibiotics during this period, more percapita car crashes.In this period more and a theasy errors and hospitals. I mean it's justunbelievable and didn't Din Asso, there's criminal or judicial errorsduring these periods and more susceptible areotypes, and things likethat you're exactly right about that excellent point. Jurors are morelucklar to resort to racial stereotypes and afternoon deliberations, and theyare morning deliberations, and so that trough period is not a great time, andso that's what we're better off doing in Administratir work work doesn'trequire massive cognitive creativity or analytic power. Then there's therecovery period, other cover periods very interesting and it's a little bit.COMPLEXAND is a little bit nuance because it's not merely about cogntivepower, isn't quite the right way to look at it. What's really important tothink about is different forms of cognition and he's what I mean by thatduring the recovery. What you see in a lot of researches, that our mood goesback up all right, so our mood for most of us hire early in the day, declinesin midday and then recovers later in the day, and so during this recoveryperiod, which again for most people. Eighty percent of us is late in theafternoon early evening. We're high in mood but, as you say, our vigilanceisn't as hog and that combination makes it a very powerful Cambo for adifferent kind of cognition, not heads down analytic distraction, freethinking, but things that's a little bit looser iterating new ideas,brainstorming coming up with not obvious ortions sobbing. What socialpsychologist call insight problems which don't been necessarily tomathematical logic and rigor, and that gives us basically this overall Guidan.So if you, if eighty percent of us, we should be doing in general, analyticwork early, the administrative work in the middle and creative iterativeinsight work later in the day now, if you're an owl, then it's much morecomplicated, but the most important thing with the all is that you'r. Ifyou're now out there listening, your vigilance is highest later in the day,so you're better off doing your analytic heads down bad away,distraction work late in the afternoon early evening, even well into theevening, which sounds like a lot of engineers that I know absolutely. Ithink that's exactly what's going on, and so certainly engineers softwareengineers, who have some liberty over their own schedules, choose to worklike that. If thereare more owls and lenlarks, they tend to be higher invigilance and focus later in the day than early in the day its O be Kil,there's no moral judgement here, it's not like this. One is right and one iswrong. It's just that those people have...

...different proclivities, but once youknow this pattern, you can do the right work at the right time and again Idon't want to Belavor this, but we have to think about how much we don't dothat. Okay, we're not very intentional deliberate in doing the right work atthe right time, so we sometimes will do our administrative works, Lark,Sothrough, their administrator work first thing in the morning: that's ahuge waste. You should be doing your analytic work then, and put youranswering your routine emails in the middle of the day. Bosses should not bescheduling meetings about if they have an office full of larks at the. Iftheman Omas full of locks, they shouldn't be scheduling. You know aNinn Tirty am meeting about. You know the travel voucher policy, that's anAdministraf pass that belongs in the middle of the day. Nor should bosses bescheduling, brainstorming sessions at nine thirty in the morning. If theyhave a lot of Lark, because people are going to be very vigilant, then invigilance actually works against you and a lot of brainstorming, at least inthe first stages of brainstorming. You want to be iterative. You want to beloose, you don't want to keep bad at. You know, knocking down ideas, and sothe real punchline here is that we have to be intentional about when we dothings and we're intentional in many cases about what we do, we have to dolest we're intentional about who we do things with. We have R offices, butwe're not intentional at all about when we do things and it matters, it mattersa lot. There's research showing that time of day just time of Day longexplains about twenty percent of the variance and how people perform on thejob. That's a big deal, yeah, it's incredibly vigial. I have a sort of twoquestions, two part of the same question. So one is, you know, thinkingabout our audience sales people, one of the things that we do a lot is we reachout to people that don't know who we are meaning with prospect and, ofcourse we hold we old meetings where we're interacting with with somebodyelse now one way the frame it might be. Well, I want to prospect when myprospects are less vigilant, so maybe I want to do a bunch of outrach aroundthree or four PM, because that is the time when, if I am able to get throughto somebody that they are less likely, but I may be defining vigulance in aninappropriate way, you're on sort of the right track, although the trainleads in a somewhat different direction, I want to get on the EGAME but you'reright about that, and it's actually really really important question,because we know something else to about these kinds of things. What you'retalking about here is, let's put a very fine point in terms of sales right, Ithink, there's a difference in some cases between the meeting and theprospecting and again at a top level prospecting is in part largely innumber. Well, it really depends on what kind of sales you're in, but in somecases it's a numbers game, and so you want to be doing it a lot and time ofday might matter marginally less, but if you're doing it and it's less of apure numbers game, let's say: Youryou're selling, it's a more complexsale, it's more consultative, Etca, etc. Here's a way to think about it thinkabout it. From the perspective of your prospect when human beings they'remaking a decision and when human bangs make decisions, particularly decisionslike the one that we're talking about here where someone is essentiallyforcing them into a decision. We come to those encounters with a defaultdecision in our back pocket and our default decision is usually no right.So nop I'm not interested or NOP Sam, I'm your boss, you can', have a raise,so our default decision is typically no, and so there is research, though,showing when people are likely to overcome the default, and it turns outthat people are slightly more likely to overcome the default early in the dayand, I think, even more important, immediately after breaks early in theday and immediately after breaks. So if you want people to overcome the defaulttha, which is typically no, you might be marginally better off making thepitch early in the day and immediately after that person has had a break now.I just want to be clear here that you know on some of those. None of theresearch yields a lockdown, perfect strategy. So what we're talking abouthere in terms of let's say selling is that you know maybe an ordinarycircumstance. You have an eleven...

...percent chance of someone saying yes,and if you get the right time of day, maybe you can dial it up to a fourteenpercent chance of getting a yes, you still have an eighty six percent chanceof getting indow the oddsare still against you. However, as any salesperson will know, wil immediately understand and Sayn people in salesunderstand this viserally I mean they understand it's math, but they have avisural understanding of this. I will take that move from eleven percentchance to a fourteen percent chance. If it's something I'm doing repeatedlybecause over time, that's going to matter- and I think that's the way tolook at it in this case Therere also some I mean we can talk about. If youwant there's some intriguing effects of sequence to if it's a serialcompetition, you know Stser ial competition, that is, you know, you'repitching thet, I'm pitching then Fredis. Pitching then Mariais pitching ensusiis pitching. You know, do you want to go first, do you want to go, laugh andthere's some interesting that ends up being fairly complex, but there's someinteresting Guiy Post? That can help us figure out the sequence side of it.What are those guide posts that would be helpful to? I always think of likead agencies, and things like that. So client says: Okay, we're putting ourcurrent agency under review and we're inviting in eight or nine agencies topitch the business and again, like the example that I gave before their waysto turn the dial a little bit in your advantage, particularly about you knowwhen you do go first and when should you not go first, so let's say this soagain back to the default thing. Let's say that: okay, let's I don't know ifyou want to keep on this ad agency idea here I like idea, I mean there's plentyof situations to your point where there's more than one vendor, that'sbrought into a conversation ind there nea go and sequent. So it's added Yi,the only one, but it's here's. He thing if you're, not thedefault choice, okay, that if you're pitching against someone who alreadyhas the account that you're seeking going first can be helpful becauseagain, there's a default, hey the Defal Tis. Probably will probably stick withthese people who we've gone with for years. This particularly the case notso much in an AD agency opening up or a client opening up an a review, but interms of the example that you're giving which is hey, we have this one vendor,but hey we're willing to listen to some other pitches for m from other vendors,and so, if you're, not the inconmvent, it's better to go first, if they'rerelatively few competitors, it's often better to go first because of thewhat's called the promiy effect, and if there are a lot of strong competitors,it's sometimes better to go first. This is interesting, though, going firstseems like a pretty good choice, a lot of the time. In many circumstances,however, there are many instances where you should not go first. So let's goback here. If you are the default choice, don't go first because peopleare likely to you. Don't need to go first, because inmany ways, if you go a if you go at a different time, they're more likelyjust to cement and rubber stamp the default. If there are a lot ofcompetitors, then going later can be a small advantage going last can be ahuge advantage and thereis some really interesting research believe it or notin a whole range of different fields like idol competitions, like thesinging show, h idol competitions in Europe, showing that the one who justhapet be slided last in the performances had a ninety percentchance of going to the next round. You see something somewhat similar in winetastings, you see something somewhat, which is another kind of serialcompetition. You see something somewhat similar and figure skating in themechanism behind. I think it's quite interesting because at the beginning ofsomething that judges, the evaluators, have this kind of idealized notion ofperfection. It's like Oh we're going to we're going to get a avendor and theventor is going to be perfect, they're going to come in with an incredibly lowprice and it's going to be served by the smartest people in the world andthe product is going to be flawless right and then, as they hear more andmore tlike IYEA wait a second. It's probably not a perfect vendor here, andso the early participants get punished for the R lack of perfection. The samething is happening to if you're operating in an uncertain environment-and this happens a lot- so let's say...

...that yosomething they see it in jobinterviews, for instance, where there's a seria competition. So let's say thatthe if they're, very clear criteria- this doesn't matter, but let's say thebuyer, the prospect, the decider, whoever she is, doesn't know preciselywhat she wants. They will use the first two or three or four. However, manypeople entrance to basically figure that out and Y. U, if you come in lateryou're more likely to get it because they've already figured out what theywant. That's really interesting in enterprise software, there's, there'srfts all the time and they don't go out to each vendor at the same time.Sometimes so it might be avantcagous to come into the RFP process. Later afterthey've interviewed a bunch of other vendors. Now they know what they want,and now you can shine, hopefully you're totally right on that. There's not likethereis a failsafe perfect way to do this. The most important thing, though,is to begin asking that question. It is to begin thinking about okay, what isthe effect of sequence? What do it and those kinds of questions end upsharpening your strategy and they should be, and timing and sequenceshould be part of your strategy. I mean you have to have a good offering at areasonable price that you know that that's obviously essential it'stablestiaks, but you might be able to derive a little bit more of an edge ifyou really carefully in a strategic, Waye scrutinize the timing, an thesequence. Again, it's not going to give you a lock, but what it is going to dois it might dial the probability a few more points in your favor and, as Isaid before, and it sales people know intuitavbly. If you up your odds and dosomething a lot, it's going to pay off well and again, you're right, it'sabout systematic repeatability and then and then those percentages can make theimpact. Why I want to move. If you have time a few more minutes, I wanted tomove to your penultimate book, which was the book drive, which is all aboutmotivation, and the reason I wanted to talk about. That is because so many ofmy peers are managing large teams of sales executives and at any level,managing Jing is about tapping into the motivation of people that are workingfor you, and I think you know you've made a lot of really interesting pointsover the years a I read your Harvard Business Review Article about themisuse of money, the primary motivating mechanism, even in the sales world, sowould love. You know some of the insights about how people should thinkabout tapping into motivation and what of levers might be effective, yeah aonce again there's you know, as with all these things that are based onresearch, there is a degree of nuance and all of this, and at some level,when we talk about money, that's a little bit of a Headfak because what'sdriving a lot of the behavior and what the reaseare just telling us is thatit's not necessarily about money is important. We'll talk about that, butit's not so much money driving things, it's something else and and here andhere's what we know, there's a certain kind of reward that we use inorganizations. This is sort of at the juncture of a book called it to SellasHuman and at and a book that I wrote called drive, but the science ofmotivation. What we know from fifty years of behaviral science is thatthere's a certain kind of reward, be usein organizations. We use lots ofrewards and organization. Some of them are monetary. Some of them are motionesome of their recognition, Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah okay, but there'scertain kind of reward that we use in organizations a psychologist call acontrolling contingent reward. I like to call that something simpler. I liketo call it an if then reward. If you do this, then you get that. If you do this,then you get that here's. What Fifty Years of science tells the body of thenrewards they're extremely effective for simple task with short time horizons.They work really really well, okay. Why is that? And this is really important,because we love rewards, they get our attention, they get us to focus, theyare that we lock in and so that very narrow focus is extremely effective. Ifyou know exactly what you need to do and you can see the finished line. Soif then rewards are effective for simple tasks with short time orisens ifthem rewards, though fifty years of science tells us, are far lesseffective for more complex creative...

...work with longer time porizes. Why isthat? It's because we love reward so much that they get us to focus narrowly,and so, if you're doing something that requires complexity or creativity, anarrow focus actually doesn't work to your advantage. It can actually work toyour disadvantage. You often want a more expansive focus. What's more, thatnarrow focus doesn't always get you to the finish line if it is far for awayand around several turns, and so what we should be doing in organizations,whether it's a sales functior or anything else, is that we should beusing these. If then rewards where they work and using something else wherethey don't work very well. We should be using. It then rewards in for simpletasks, wit short hot time horizons. We should be trying an alternative forcomplex task with longer time horizons. Now, let's go back to sales, one of thethings, and this is where we're sort of bridging these two books, one of thethings happening in sales. As you know, Sam, as many Roo listeners know, it'sat sales has become, has moved to become far less routine andtransactional because any kind of sales function that is like super, simple andtransactional. That's going to end up getting automate, that's going to getbe, get done with Selfservice, and so the sales tasks that remain are goingto be the ones with higher degrees of complexity, longer time, horizons andso forth. What we have to do is we have to be nuanced in the way we deal withcompensation for sales people, if it's all, based on commission or heavilybased on commission, that's going to be effective if the sale is relativelysimple and the time rrises with the sale ar relatively short. If it's morecomplex and a longer time orizon, it might not work very well. If itinvolves collaboration, it might not work very well and so one of the, andso we have to be much more nuas an how we deal with this. I don't think thescience tells us we should be against variable comp of eny kind. I don'tthink it tells us that I think what it tells is is that we have to be verycareful about that and, in my view of sales, which is articulate in this bookto sell as umit is it. Sales has become much more complex, much moreprofessionalized, much more cognitively, demanding than simply call try to get as call try to get a yes call. TRY TO GET ES, call try to get a S, call tryto get a ES. I think then, in many ways, business. The business sales today isessentially management consultant, and you know we don't put managementconsultants on the same kind of compensation scheme that we put Doortodoor brush salesman. Is it an alternative compensation scheme, or isit really just an alternative or ward structure, and in that alternative wordstructure? Is it sort of psychological rewards like it's a great question andI think it's books and I think we have to in some ways tosentangle these twothings. Let's talk about the pure compensation set, I think there's notgoing to be a perfect solution for every organization. I don't thinkthere's an off the shelf solution for all of this. I think it's going todepend on the people. You have it's going to depend on your industry, it'sgoing to depend on a lot of variables. I do think that there are common set ofdesign principles so especially for more complex sales. One of them is tohire great people. Okay, there is a notion in sales. Our ConversationScheme is so well oiled that we can put anybody into it and they're going torespond as we predict that they will respond, and that is not true, sohigher grade people. I think that there is even in sales, especially in complexsales, which, again to me, is becoming management consulting. There should bea healthy base, salary, then n. There should be some variable comp, but thevariable cop should be based on a set, a very simple hard to game metrics, andI mean literally just like three or four simple hard to game metrics,because as everybody on this program, every listener knows sales people areexpert at gaming, any kind of compensation system and one of theproblems that organizations have is that their compensation systems inorder to avoid gaining become complex...

...and all that does is trigger morecomplex behavior in the part of the sales force and to the organization itexacts a cost, because the more complexthe compensation system is themore cumbersome and expensive and administrative apparatus you have tohave to monitor it, to enforce it to litigate disputes within it and sohiger grid people, pay them a healthy bass salary and have some variable comp,based on some very simple direct metrics. That matter, I think that'sthe general set of design principles that are best again just I'm going tobe Clie for more complex consultative management consultant like sales, ifyou're going door to door selling pots and pants pay people commission onevery pond, Pan they sell yeah. You know it's interesting, there's a wholecan of worms that this topic may ultimately open up, because you know Ifollow Thi Stup very very closely. You may not follow as closely, but so youknow if you're a midmarket account executive if you're selling somethingthat's a twenty to fifty thousand dollar solution and even beyond mostpeople's comp is I fifty base- and you know, commission and many many firms.Many many companies are really coming in saying well we're going to come inwith a very low base, a base that some folks can't even live on and thenyou're going to. But it's Theot, it's the ontarget earnings. It's the abilityto earn this number that it put in the offer letter, which mayor may not berealistic. It's all based on whether or not the demand is really there for theproduct, and so now the other side of that is that sales people do tend to bethe highest paid people in the company, and so there's this whole tangled web.That has to be untangled, where you know, maybe what we're saying is thatwe normalize sales compensation back to compensation. That looks like everyother department, where you know three quarters of it is face salary andthere's a bonus opponent, but it's not this wild roller coaster that that isthe life of the salesperson right now, I think that's again, depending on theindustry in the kind of sale that it is. I think that's inevitably where thingsare going to go. I think that in many ways, sales compensation is a legacy ofthe simplicity of many kinds of sales transactions, free Internet, pre,automation, preself service, where you needed someone to actually hit thestreet and take the order when sales becomes more complex, I think you needin general a different compensation strategy. I think the most importantthing, though again I don't want to be here- pedaling simple solutions here-think the most important thing that which is exactly what you're hinting at,is to challenge the Orthodoxy Challenge the Orthodoxy that the only way tomotivate sales people is through low based salaries, fear of not being ableto feed their family and dangling out Super High Commissions. It makes a lotof sense den we're essentially out of time. I want to leave a few moments nowto see if we can pay it forward, so we obviously first of all just so thateverybody knows and that we do the appropriate level of publicity. The newbook is called when the scientific secrets of perfect timing. I wouldimagine it's available where all booksellers books are sold, includingyes and DA F. Pes is this company and anywhere else you can bite on AmazoncomBNCOM INDCOM? You can buy it at your favorite brooks and mortar bookstore,including your local, independent bookseller, all of them, the otherbooks are called drive and to sell us human and then I think you're, maybethe longest running one is called a whole new mind. You also have a websiteDamnpinkcom, where I think you have a newsletter, if I'm not mistaken, an Oboocans pen up there, wonderful and so then. The last thing I would ask of youis: You are one of the leading business writers. I always say you know in theuniverse. We don't know who else is out there on different planets, butcertainlan. But I you know what orther great books have you read? Who are theauthors or the thinkers that you are influenced by, so that we can sort offollow the journey? Oh there's just so many great books, and so many greatwriters out there. It's sort of it's in many ways, an embarrassment of riches.So, if you think about, I think that someone like Susan Cane, who wrote abook, Ok quiet about the power of introverts, could be very Germain to asales audience, because there's some...

...interesting research showing that beinga strong extrovert is not the best way to be persuasive in a sale. Settingthat introverts and and preverts Gan have some advantages as well. So Ithink that Susan Kane would be good on that. I think that someone like WhitneyJohnson, who has written a book about how to build a great team who was aformer Wall Street analyst and ventor capitalist, could have some very, very,very, very, very interesting things to say there are Daniel coyle has agreatbook this year about teams and how teams cohere and how teams operate.There is fascinating book by Jeremy Himonds and Henry Tims that just cameout called new power about how you know how movements build in thisremade landscape. I still am a fan of. I use the terminology, all the time ofBlue Ocean, the Blue Ocean, folks, Cham Kim and Rene Moutbourne. So, there'sjust a lot of really really really great stuff out there. Well Ot. I wasan Acceptmal, its and actually typed it all down, because I want to make surethat I self etify damn thanks so much for AU time. We really reallyappreciate it. We said where we can find your books and thanks forcontributing, I think we got a lot of a lot out of that. Thanks sang for Happiis bit a pleasure. Thank you. GO CAPS, hello, everybody that was Dan Hankworld famous author multimillion tead Tock, vieing getter, and this is SAMscorner, obviously were incredibly excited and honored to have Dan on theshow he has written so many interesting books and made so many useful andinteresting insights about the world. In addition to the commen Sady madeabout his new book Len, which talks about, went the science of figuring outwhen to do things, not just how to do them. To who to do them has also talkeda lot about motivation and one of the things that I often reference inconversations whowith new managers and people that I work with is this Tedtalk, which has got number twenty million few, so definitely go. Take alook at it. In that talk, he talks about autonomy, mastery and purpose thethings that motivate people autonomy, the opportunity to act independently,mastery the opportunity to become excellent at something and reallydevelop skill and purpose understanding the context and the Vision for why whatyou're doing contributes to a broader organization. I think about that. A lotand again purpose for me comes down to context and communicating back to theorganization. Here's why you are doing what you're doing and here's how itrelates to our broter goal, and I think, if we can keep that in mind, wet con.Keep all of the people in the organization with come. o working cankeep all of them engaged. So this has been Sam's corner thanks a dam pank forbeing a special guest. We look forward to more special guests in the futureand I thank you for listening and until then I'll see you next time to checkout the show notes, see upcoming guests and playng, more episodes from ourincredible INIPL SAL leaders visit sales. Hackercom podcast can also findthe sales hacking podcast on itunes or goople play. If you enjoy this episode,please share with your peers on linked in twitter or elsewhere. Special thanksagain to this months. Sponsors at Air Call Seemore at air called TOT IO. Ifyou want to get in touch with me, find me on twitter, at Sam F, Jacobs, OronLindon at Linoncom, Ashand, Sam, F, Jacobs, I'll, see hem next time.

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