The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

13. Using the Science of Perfect Timing to Improve Sales Outcomes w/ Dan Pink

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Tune in to episode 13 of the Sales Hacker podcast with Dan Pink, WSJ and NYT bestselling author as we talk about the importance of time management in sales.

One, two, one, three, three, quote. Everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the saleshacker podcast. We've got an incredible episode upcoming with world famous author Dan Pinks. I'm so glad you're listening. Couple messages that we want to share withyou before we get started. The first is from our sponsors at air call. Air Calls a platform to make every conversation count. They empower sales andsupport teams to ace every call with a phone system specifically built for their favoritebusiness tools. Now I happened another company pretty well. They've been growing very, very quickly. One of the Nice things about air calls they integrate directlywith all of your customer support systems like Zendesk. It's really, really easyand seamless. They have a self service product in addition to a product builtfor teams. They've been growing five to six sex over the last couple ofyears and they're just a phenomenal company and the customers love of they've got overa thousand customers including, in fact, then the actual numbers over threezero companiesworldwide. Some of the customers include seek, Geek, cooper, Birch box andand if you're in New York. I know they have a very strongpresence in New York. So take a look at air call. The websiteis are called ioh. One more thing before we get started. We we'vegot a lot of folks listening out there and sharing some of our content onLinkedin and I just can't tell you how how appreciative we are the salesacer podcast, of all of the folks that have been writing in. So I wantto start doing a thing where where we mentioned some of the folks that havereached out to me over linkedin and giving them a little bit of a shoutout in appreciation for for their support. Three folks today, Lenny Fernandez,Shane Black and Sleigh huff. Slay huff has has been buying some of thebooks that we've been recommending on the PODCAST. Lenny Fernandez has sent me a lotof really nice messages, so I really appreciate it, and Shane Blackreally liked our our episode with David Primer. So, Shane, Lenny, sleigh, thanks so much for listening. If you're out there and you wantto shoot me a note and you have ideas for new episodes, please letme know because we're excited. We always want to get better and if youhave guests that you think would be interesting, send them my way and without furtherado, let's take a listen to Dan pink. Thanks so much.Hi everybody, welcome back to the sales hacker podcast. Today is a very, very special episode. We've got probably the most celebrated person to appear yeton the PODCAST, but beyond that, somebody that's actually been a very biginfluence on my life personally. So let me first tell you about him.So Dan Pink is our guest today. He's the author of six provocative books, including his newest when, the scientific secrets of perfect timing, which isspent four months on the New York Times best seller list. His other booksinclude the long running New York Times best seller a whole new mind and theNumber One New York Times best sellers drive and to sell as human his booksof one multiple awards and have been translated into thirty seven languages. He livesin Washington DC, home of the Stanley Cup champion Washington capitals, with hiswife and their three children. Welcome Dan. Thank you for having me. Sam. I would never would have expected anybody would have introduced me as hailingfrom the home of than like a champions but it's great. It's a wonderfultime in existence, despite all of the other bad things that are happening.Well, I'm hoping that it clears a path for my beloved Washington nationals tobreak their curse. I think this is the year. I was exactly justthinking that and there was anyway we can talk about DC sports at length.But the only bad part of all of it was that Bryce Harper was aLas Vegas Golden Nights Fan, which was disappointment. Well, another signal thatit might be his last year here in the nation's cabin exactly. Max's are, though, undoubtedly the Pie Young of the National League. If you askme, I have two spirit animals. Make sures are in James Harden.There you go, that's who I want to be. Well, I'm hopingthat you have a James Harden style beard. Right now. I don't. Idon't know if I could even grow that. That is the kind ofaspiration that's even too high for me, Sam, nevertheless. All right,so back to serious business here. You know, Dan, it would behelpful. You've written so many amazing books...

...and just for the folks out thereI first came to know about Dan through his book to sell his human andthen his Ted talk on the science of motivation is one of the ten mostwatched of all time, with more than twenty million views, and I regularlycite it in sort of discussions about how to motivate people. So tell ushow you got into writing such interesting books and we're inspiration comes from, andjust sort of give us a little bit about your revolution, because it's it'salways interesting to hear we're people come from. Okay, so I so I cameto the path of being a writer or the kind of Rut I amnow, I think most people indirect stumbling, fits and starts kind of way.I started out my working life with a law degree and no desire topractice law, so instead I started working in politics, which is something thatI was at the time very keenly interested in. I worked in a numberof jobs in politics and campaigns on Capitol Hill, for cabinet official and forreasons, again another set of really just kind of random, halfass reasons,I became a political speech writer because it was something that I could do marginallybetter than other people who were in the office. That became what I didand I liked it and I was pretty good at it, and I becamechief speech writer to Vice President Now Gore, in one thousand nine hundred and ninetyfive, over there, in nineteen and twenty six, but in onethousand nine hundred and ninety seven, later, in one thousand ninehundred and ninety seven, after a couple of years I daunt at me that I didn't wantto work in politics the rest of my life. In fact, I didn'twant to work in politics anymore, and so what I really wanted to dowas right under my own byline, write my own stuff, and this issomething that I had always done on the side, something that I had doneever since I was in college, writing articles and essays and op eds andthings like that for magazines and newspapers. I always considered it kind of ahobby in a sense, something that I did that wasn't really like my job. Is just something I did because I thought it was kind of fun andan interesting but took me into my early thirties to say, wait a second, this might be what I do, and so that's when I started.So this is now twenty one years ago, and I went to work for myselfagain, not a wild crazy decision, because my wife kept her job whenI quit my job. She didn't leave her job or her salary orher health insurance. And I said then, let me just try to make itat writing my own stuff see how it goes. And that was twentyone years ago, and you know, what I've tried to do as muchas possible is right about things that I was deeply interested in, and there'stwo reasons for that. First is that if I'm writing a book, isreally, really hard, it's a giant pain and if you don't really loveyour material, it's going to be even more miserable and you're probably not goingto write a good book. Second is that I've always felt like if I'minterested in something, then other people be interested in it, that I don'tthink that I have extreme taste or exalted taste or specially refined taste, thatif there're things in my life that I'm wondering about, whether it's hey,what kind of skills are my kids going to need in a workforce where workis easy to be outsourced and automated, how do you really motivate people atwork? Is Selling a noble profession? Or something sleazy. How do youmake better decisions about when to do things? I always felt, you know,if I'm wondering these things and other people are wondering it too, andso by written these six books, again really driven by my own interests andtrying to figure out what makes people tick, what people actually do, it work, how they can do it better. And I've always been fascinated by workas a lens, because we spend half of our waking hours, overhalf our waking hour sometimes, at work, and so it becomes as great wayto study who human beings are, why they do what they do orwhat are their conflicts, how do they work together? What are their aspirations, what are their hossles? And so that's what I've tried to do.I have again that I've been working for myself for twenty one years. Istarted out working on the third floor of my house, then we moved andI was promoted to the garage behind my house. So I've never had anoffice that wasn't at my house. Well, and I can actually hear the birdsin the background right now. Any really yeah, there are. Imean it's springtime here and it's the end of springtime. Here in Washington aswe're talking, and seriously it's annoying, the skies are awash with chirping birds. I find it quite pleasant actually.

It's sort of do okay, goodpastoral picture. So let's talk about your most recent book. It's incredibly fascinatingand pay thanks course, relevant for salespeople. It's called when. Tell us alittle bit you know more about it. So this book is about the scienceof timing, and that's really the main idea of the book. AsI said, as we was talking about in that lengthy overview of my lifeand times, would generally promised me to write books. Is are my ownquestions and again the assumption that other people are probably dealing with things that aresimilar, and in this case the question that I was asking myself out offrustration was how can I make better decisions about when to do things? Sobecause in the course of the day, a week at life, you makeall kinds of wind decision. When in the day should I do this kindof work? When in the day should I do that kind of work?When should exercise? When should I start a project? When should I stopthe project? When should I make a sales call? When should I notmake a sales call and I was making the decisions in a very sloppy way. I want to make them in a more systematic way and as someone whohas studied behavioral science but a lot of time looking at the research in anumber of different realms, in a number of different books, I said Iwonder if there's any research out there on this topic of when to do things, and it turned out there was a huge amount of research on this question. It was spread across many, many, many different fields and so it tooksome corralling, but what I found is that while we make most ofour timy decisions based on intuition and guess work, that's the wrong way todo it. We should be making them based on this rich body of scienceand evidence and data. And so the book lays out the science of whento do things. How does a pattern of the day effect what we doand how we feel about it? Why it breaks matter? How Do BeginningsAffect Us? How to endings affect us, how to midpoints affect us? Howto group synchronize the time? And so the goal is to give peoplea taste of the science, taste of the evidence, but then also directthem into some very simple, practical, tactical things they can do to makebetter decisions in their own life. So, you know, just jumping off intothat from that starting point. The first part of the book, whichI've read, talks about that, as you mentioned, the hidden pattern ofeveryday life and that there are times when to make decisions. So walk usthrough that, because that was obviously extremely interesting and helps you know we're doing. As I mentioned before, we started recording, we're doing this podcast attwo PM, is a very significant part of the day when maybe we aremore inclined to perhaps dislike each other. Oh well, I wouldn't go thatfar. I would say that it is a suboptimal time of day, butthere are things that we can do about it, about which more in amoment. That the idea here is that if you look at again, andI think one of the interesting things about this particular topic, is that thereis a field called chronobiology, which is a study of our biological rhythms.But beyond that, this this study of timing, is something that's studied indifferent ways by many, many different disciplines. It's been studied in a whole arrayof life sciences and medical sciences, so anesthesiology and a chronology, molecularbiology, but it's also been studied in an array of social sciences, whetherit's social psychology, economics, anthropology, of Linguistics, and what it tellsus, at least at the unit of a day, which is a veryimportant unit, because a day is something we can't control, right. Mean, like you know, we're on a planet and that planet makes a turnevery single day and that turn, that pattern of the day, has aprofound effect on our mood and our performance, and I think what's interesting about itis that so many scholars and so many different fields, different fields usingso many different disciplines, keep coming to the same conclusions. And the mainconclusion here, and I think in terms of your listeners Sam whether they aretheir sales reps, whether there are sales few peas, whether the sales managers, whether the chief revenue officers, whatever, is this that our cognitive abilities arebrain power doesn't stay the same throughout the day. It doesn't stay staticthroughout the day. It changes. Okay, so your mental sharpness is not thesame at different times of day. Now it's some level. We kindof sort of knew this intuitively, but at other levels, we didn't.And so for me, for instance, when I felt like, Oh,wait a second, I don't feel a sharp right now, I thought ofthat, as you know, a weakness, as something peculiar right, and it'sreally not so. Our COGNITI abilities...

...aren't the same throughout the day.They change, they change in predictable ways and sometimes they change in pretty extremeways, so that the difference between the daily high point in the daily lowpoint can be quite large. And when we do something depends on what itis that we do, and it's so it's possible to take it's possible todiscern a pattern of the day and to figure out when to do certain kindsof work at the right time. Yeah, I will paraphrase and then you cancorrect me and add on. But is it accurate that at the barestessence it's that, you know, you do sort of new, most cognitive, your high cognitive load activities in the morning that during the afternoon there's sortof a trough period where both, I guess, there's more negativity generally acrossthe human race, but also specifically, your ability to sort of process difficultanalytical decisions is reduced and then they're sort of a surge as you move towardsthe evening and we need to be mindful of that. Is that is thatan accurate you know summary? That's pretty accurate. Let me make a coupleof refinements here, because there is some nuance in this. So at thestart some of this depends on what's known. I mentioned the field of chronobiology before. chronibiologists have talked about what's People's chronotype, right, and that's basicallyyour propensity. Do you wake up early and go to sleep early, ifyou wake up late and go to sleep late, or you're somewhere in between, and so part of the pattern of the day is determined by your chronotype. And again it's something that is heavily innate, heavily biological. It variesa little bit over very sometimes significantly over age, but the gist of itis this. About fifteen percent of us, one five percent of us are prettystrong morning people, larks, get up early, feel energetic, superenergetic in the morning. But twenty percent of us are owls, get uplate and actually feel super energetic and acute, much, much later in the day, in the late afternoon, early evening, Midi evening, even laterin the evening. And then about two thirds of us are in the middle, where what I call them third birds, were, you know, a littlebit of both. And so figuring out your chronotype, which is actuallyfairly easy to do, is the first start here, first step here.I mean actually, I don't want to be opaque. We could figure outyour chronotype, Sam, in thirty seconds if you wanted. I've already decided. I'm the LARK. Let's test, US go, let's Tuch your intuition. So there's a standard psychological assessment called the immunochronotype questionnaire, the mctq.That is a way to assess this, but there's a back of the envelopeway as well, and so let's just check yours. I mean literally,we can do it in thirty seconds. So I'm sure to think, Sam, about what's called a free day. A Free Day, a free days, a day you don't have to wake up to an alarm clock and you'realso, you know, not massively sleep deprived and trying to catch up onsleep. So when you'll have to your own devices? What time would youtypically go to sleep when you don't mean you have a free day, youdon't have to wake up at a particular time you don't have an alarm.Fun I'd say ten thirty PM TO THIRTY PM. And then what time wetypically wake up? Seven am, seven AMS, if I have no professionalobligations. Yeah, Cook. Great. So what we're talking about here then, is that what we're trying to do is figure out your midpoint of sleep. So well, we have here is ten thirty two seven, so thatwould be home. Might it's we got a half hour there. Let's figurethis out here. I can make it six thirty two, make gettings here. Let's make it sick thirty to make it easier. Eight hours. Soyour midpoint of sleep would eat to thirty am. Correct. That's what tofigure out. Okay. So, and what's the research shows is that ifyour midpoint of sleep on a free day is before three and thirty, you'reprobably a Lark. If your midpoint of sleep is after thirty am, you'reprobably in a hell, and if it's between thirty and thirty, you're probablyintermediate. That what I call a third but so you're definitely a Lark.So that that makes sense. So your intuitions are spot on. And here'swhat we know. Again, I don't want to take too much time talkingabout this. But a way to think about it is as follows, evensimpler ways, like we have owls and we have non owls. Right.Most of US marks, people in the middle, tend to move the dayexactly as you say, Sam in three...

...stages, a peak, a troughof recovery, peak early in the day, trough in the middle of the day, recovery later in the day. Owls are much, much more complicated, much more complicated. They sometimes will go through the day, recovery,trough, peak, but they will hit their peak far, far later inthe day. So let's just say an outside very hard because conventional work schedulesare designed to crush their spirits. But let's take someone like you, forinstance, or me. I'm not at a Lark, I'm in the middle, but Larky. We tend to move to the day exactly as you say, in those three stages, peak, trough, recovery, peak early inthe day, early in the day. That's when we are most vigilant,and that's the key word. That's one of most vigilant. We're able tobat away distractions. So during the peak you're better off able to do workthat you're you should be doing work that requires be doing basically analytic work,work that requires analysis, focus, heads down, attention, eliminating distractions,writing a report, analyzing data, whatever. That is all right. So formost of us it's early in the day. Now for you, youmight want to begin doing that. You actually an hour earlier than me,or forty five minutes earlier than me. Exact. We can't say when inthe particular moment everybody should do it, but in general, early in theday your higher and vigilance. That's when you should be doing analytic work.During the trough that comes between, in the early to mid afternoon, that'sa very, very dangerous time for people. There's a surge in medical errors,I mean an incredible difference in problems at hospitals, declining hand washing inhospitals, over prescribing of antibiotics during this period. More per capita car crashesin this period. More and Athees the errors and hospitals. I mean,it's just unbelievable. And didn't also there's criminal or judicial errors during these periodsand more susceptible types and things. You're exact. Actually write about that excellentpoint. Jurors are more likely resort to racial stereotypes and afternoon deliberations and thereare morning deliberations, and so that trough period is not a great time,and so that's what we're better off doing, administrative work, work it doesn't requiremassive cognitive creativity or analytic power. Then there's the recovery period and othercover period is very interesting and it's a little bit complex and it's a littlebit nuance because it's not merely about cognitive power. Isn't quite the right wayto look at it. What's really important to think about is different forms ofcognition, and here's what I mean by that. During the recovery what yousee in a lot of researchs that our mood goes back up. All right, so our mood from most of us higher early in the day, declinesin midday and then recovers later in the day. And so during this recoveryperiod, which again for most people, eighty percent of us, is latein the afternoon, early evening, we're high and mood but, as yousay, are vigilances and as high, and that combination makes it a verypowerful Combo for a different kind of cognition, not heads down, analytic distraction,free thinking, but things that's a little bit looser, iterating new ideas, brainstorming, coming up with not obvious solutions, solving what social psychologists callinsight problems, which don't bend necessarily to mathematical logic and rigor, and thatgives us basically this overall guidance. So if you eighty percent of us,we should be doing, in general, analytic work early, administrative work inthe middle and creative, iterative in sight work later in the day. Now, if you're an owl, then it's much more complicated, but the mostimportant thing with the awl is that you're, if you're an owl, out therelistening. Your vigilance is highest later in the day. So you're betteroff doing your analytic, Heads Down, Bat away distraction work late in theafternoon, early evening, even well into the evening, which sounds like alot of engineers that I know. Absolutely I think that's exactly what's going on. And so certainly engineers, software engineers who have some liberty over their ownschedules, choose to work like that. If they're more owls and Len larks, they tend to be higher and vigilance and focus later in the day thanearly in the day it is to be Kitler's no moral judgment here. It'snot like this one is right and one is wrong. It's just that thosepeople have different proclivities. But once you...

...know this pattern, you can dothe right work at the right time. And again, I don't want toBelabor this, but we have to think about how much we don't do that. Okay, we're not very intentional deliberate in doing the right work at theright time. So we sometimes will do our administrative works larks so that theiradministrative work first thing in the morning. That's a huge waste. You shouldbe doing your analytic work then and put your answering your routine emails in themiddle of the day. Boss is should not be scheduling meetings about if theyhave an office full of larks at the if have an office full of locks, they shouldn't be scheduling, you know, a thirty am meeting about, youknow, the travel out your policy. That's an administrative task that belongs inthe middle of the day. Nor should boss is be scheduling brainstorming sessionsat thirty in the morning if they have a lot of locks, because peopleare going to be very vigilant then in vigilance actually works against you in alot of brainstorming, at least the first stages of brainstorming. You want tobe iterative, you want to be loose, you don't want to keep bad at, you know, knocking down ideas, and so the real punch line hereis that we have to be intentional about when we do things and we'reintentional in many cases about what we do. We have to do list, we'reintentional about who we do things with, we have HR offices, but we'renot intentional at all about when we do things, and it matters.It matters a lot. There's research showing that time of day, just timeof day alone, explains about twenty percent of the variance and how people performon the job. That's a big deal. Yeah, it's incredibly vigil I havea sort of two questions to parts of the same question. So oneis, you know, thinking about our audience, salespeople. One of thethings that we do a lot is we reach out to people that don't knowwho we are, meaning with prospect and of course we hold we old meetingswhere we're interacting with with somebody else. Now, one way to frame itmight be well I want to prospect when my prospects are less vigilant. Somaybe I want to do a bunch of outreach around three or four pm becausethat is the time when, if I am able to get through to somebody, that they are less likely. But I may be defining vigilance and aninappropriate way. You're on sort of the right track, although the train leavesin a somewhat different direction. I want to get on the train, butyou're right about that and it's actually a really important question because we know somethingelse too about these kinds of things. What you're talking about here is,let's put a very fine point, in terms of sales right. I thinkthere's a difference in some cases between the meeting and the prospecting. And again, at a top level, prospecting is in part largely in number. Thatwell, really depends on what kind of sales you're in. But in somecases it's a numbers game and so you want to be doing it a lotand time of day might matter marginally less. But if you're doing it and it'sless of a pure numbers game, let's say you're you're selling, it'sa more complex sale, it's more consultative etcetera, etc. Here's the wayto think about them. Think about it from the perspective of your prospect.When human beings they're making a decision, and when human beings make decisions,particularly decisions like the one that we're talking about here, where someone is essentiallyforcing them into a decision, we come to those encounters with a default decisionin our back pocket, and our default decision is usually no. Right.So nope, I'm not interested, or Nope, Sam, I'm your boss, you can't have a raise. So our default decision is typically no.And so there is research, though, showing when people are likely to overcomethe default, and it turns out that people are slightly more likely to overcomethe default early in the day and, I think, even more important,immediately after breaks. Early in the day and immediately after breaks. So ifyou want people to overcome the default, that which is typically no, youmight be marginally better off making the pitch early in the day and immediately afterthat person has had a break. Now I just want to be clear herethat you know on some of this, none of the research yields a lockdownperfect strategy. So what we're talking about here in terms of let's say sellingis that, you know, maybe an ordinary circumstance you have an eleven percentchance of someone saying yes, and if...

...you get the right time of day, maybe you can dial it up to a fourteen percent chance of getting ayes. You still have an eighty six percent chance of getting a know,the odds are still against you. However, as any salesperson will know, willimmediately understand, and saying people in sales understands viscerally that, I meanthey understand. It's math, but they have a visceral understanding of this.I will take that move from eleven percent chance to a fourteen percent chance ifit's something I'm doing repeatedly, because over time that's going to matter and Ithink that's the way to look at it in this case. There also someim we can talk about if you want. There's some and treating effects of sequenceto if it's a serial competition, you know c Sri Al Competition,that is, you know you're pitching, then I'm pitching, than Fred ispitching, then Maria's pitching, then Susie is pitching. You know, doyou want to go first? Do you want to go last? And there'ssome interesting that ends up being fairly complex, but there's an interesting guide posts thatcan help us figure out the sequence side of it. What are thoseguide posts that would be helpful to I always think of like ad agencies andthings like that. So client says, okay, we're putting our current agencyunder review and we're invite getting in eight or nine agencies to pitch the business. And again, like the example that I gave before, there ways toturn the dial a little bit in your advantage, particularly about, you know, when you you go first and when should you not go first? Solet's see this. So again back to the default thing. Let's say that. Okay, let's I don't know if you want to keep on this ADagency idea here. I like idea. I mean there's plenty of situations toyour point, where there's more than one vendor that's brought into a conversation andthere they are going sequence. So it's at it the only one, butit's here's the thing. If you're not the default choice, okay that,if you're pitching against someone who already has the account that you're seeking, goingfirst can be helpful because again there's a default. Hey, the default isprobably I probably stick with these people who we've gone with four years. Thisparticularly the case, not so much in an AD agency opening up or aclient opening up and a review, but in terms of the example that you'regiving, which is, hey, we have this one vendor, but hey, we're willing to listen to some other pitches from from other vendors. Andso if you're not the incumbent, it's better to go first. If they'rerelatively few competitors, it's often better to go first because of the what's calledthe promisy effect, and if there are a lot of strong competitors, it'ssometimes better to go first. This is interesting. Going first seems like apretty good choice a lot of the time. In many circumstances, however, thereare many instances where you should not go first. So let's go backhere. If you are the default choice, don't go first, because people arelikely to you don't need to go first because in many ways, ifyou go at if you go at a different time, they're more likely justto cement and rubber stamp the default. If there are a lot of competitors, then going later can be a small advantage. Going last can be ahuge advantage, and there's some really interesting research, believe it or not,in a whole range of different fields, like idol competitions, like the singingshowed idle competitions in Europe showing that the one who just happen to be slottedlast in the performances had a ninety percent chance of going to the next round. You see something somewhat similar in wine tastings. You see something somewhat whichis another kind of serial competition. You see something somewhat similar in figure skating, in the mechanism behind that. I think it's quite interesting because at thebeginning of something, the judges, the evaluators have this kind of idealized notionof perfection. It's like, Oh, we're going to have we're going toget a vendor in. The vendors going to be perfect, they're going tocome in with an incredibly low price and it's going to be served by thesmartest people in the world and the product is going to be flawless. Right. And then as they hear more and more like I at wait a second, is probably not a perfect vendor here, and so the early participants get punishedfor their lack of perfection. The same thing is happening to if you'reoperating in an uncertain environment, and this happens a lot. So let's saythat you somebody see it in job interviews,...

...for instance, where there's a serialcompetition. So let's say that the if they're very clear criteria, thisdoesn't matter. But let's say the buy or the prospect, the decider,whoever she is, doesn't know precisely what she wants. They will use thefirst two or three or four or however many people entrance to basically figure thatout and you, if you come in later, you're more likely to getit because they've already figured out what they want. That's really interesting and enterprise. There's there's RFP's all the time and they don't go off to each vendorat the same time sometimes. So it's it might be advantageous to come intothe RFP process later after they've interviewed a bunch of other vendors. Now theyknow what they want and now you can shine. Hopefully you're totally right onthat. There's not like there's a failsafe, perfect way to do this. Themost important thing, though, is to begin asking that question. Itis to begin thinking about, okay, what is the effect of sequence?What do it? And those kinds of questions end up sharpening your strategy andthey should be in timing and sequence should be part of your strategy. Youhave to have a good offering at a reasonable price that you know that.That's obviously essential. It's table sticks, but you might be able to drivea little bit more of an edge if you really carefully, in a strategicway, scrutinize the timing in the sequence. Again, it's not going to giveyou a lock, but what it is going to do is it mightdial the probability a few more points in your favor. And, as Isaid before, and it sales people know intuitively if you up your odds anddo something a lot, it's going to pay off. Well and again you'reright. It's about systematic repeatability and then, and then, those percentages can makethe impact. I want to move if you have time a few moreminutes. I wanted to move to your penultimate book, which was the bookdrive, which is all about motivation, and the reason I wanted to talkabout that is because so many of my peers are managing large teams of salesexecutives and at any level, managing is about tapping into the motivation of peoplethat are working for you and I think you know you've made a lot ofreally interesting points over the years, and I read your your Harvard Business ReviewArticle about the misuse of money at the primary motivating mechanism, even in thesales world. So would love you know some of the insights about how peopleshould think about tapping into motivation and what sort of levers might be effective.Yeah, and it once again there is, you know, as with all thesethings that are based on research, there is a degree of nuance andall of this and at some level when we talk about money, that's alittle bit of a head fake because what's driving a lot of the behavior andwhat the research is telling us is that it's not necessarily about money. IsImportant, we'll talk about that, but it's not so much money driving things, it's something else. And in here's and here's what we know. There'sa certain kind of reward that we use in organizations. This is sort ofat the juncture of a book called Seals, human and at and a book thatI wrote called drive. What the Science of motivation? What we knowfrom fifty years of behavioral science is that there's a certain kind of reward weuse in organized zation. We use lots of rewards and organization. Some ofthem are monetary, some of them are motion, some of their recognition,Blah, blah, blah, Blah Blah. Okay, but there's a certain kindof reward that we use an organizations. Its psychologists call a controlling, contingentreward. I like to call that something simpler. I like to callit an if then reward. If you do this, then you get that. If you do this, then you get that. Here's what fifty yearsof science tells us. Buddy, if then rewards. They're extremely effective forsimple task with short time horizons. They work really, really well. Okay. Why is that? And this is really important, because we love rewards. They get our attention, they get us to focus, they are thatwe lock it, and so that very narrow focus is extremely effective if youknow exactly what you need to do and you can see the finished line.So if then rewards are effective for simple tasks with short time horizons. Ifthem rewards, though, Fifty Years of science tells us, are far lesseffective for more complex creative work with longer...

...time horizons. Why is that?It's because we love reward so much that they get us to focus narrowly.And so if you're doing something that requires complexity or creativity, a narrow focusactually doesn't work to your advantage. It can actually work to your disadvantage.You often want a more expansive focus. What's more, that narrow focus doesn'talways get you to the finish line if it is far, far away andaround several turns. And so what we should be doing in organizations, whetherit's a sales function or anything else, is that we should be using theseif then rewards where they work and using something else where they don't work verywell. We should be using if then rewards in for simple tasks with shorttime horizons. We should be trying an alternative for complex tasks with longer timehorizons. Now let's go back to sales. One of the things, and thisis where we're sort of bridging these two books, one of the thingshappening in sales, as you know, Sam, as many of your listenersknow, it's its sales has become, has moved to become far less routineand transactional, because any kind of sales function that is like super simple andtransactional. That's going to end up getting automated, that's going to get weget done with self service, and so the sales tasks that remain are goingto be the ones with higher degrees of complexity, longer time horizons and soforth. What we have to do is we have to be nuance in theway we deal with compensation for salespeople. If it's all based on commission orheavily based on commission, that's going to be effective if the sale is relativelysimple and the time horizons with the sale are relatively short. If it's morecomplex and a longer time horizon, it might not work very well. Ifit involves collaboration, it might not work very well. And so one ofthe and so we have to be much more nuance and how we deal withthis. I don't think the science tells us we should be against variable compof any kind. I don't think it tells us that. I think whatit tells us is that we have to be very careful about that. Andin my view of sales, which is articulated in this book, to sellas human is. It's a else has become much more complex, much moreprofessionalize, much more cognitively demanding than simply call, try to get a scall, try to get a s call, try to get s called, tryto get a s called, try to get a yes. I thinkthen, in many ways, business to business sales today is essentially management consulting, and you know, we don't put management consultants on the same kind ofcompensation scheme that we put doortodoor brush salesman. Is it an alternative compensation scheme oris it really just an alternative reward structure? And in that alternative rewordstructure, is that sort of psychological rewards like? It's a great question andI think it's both and I think we have to in some ways to disentanglethese two things. Let's talk about the the pure compensation side. I thinkthere's not going to be a perfect solution for every organization. I don't thinkthere's an off the shelf solution for all of this. I think it's goingto depend on the people you have, is going to depend on your industry, it's going to depend on a lot of variables. I do think thatthere are common set of design principles, though, especially for more complex sales. One of them is to higher great people. Okay, there is anotion in sales. Our Conversation Scheme is so well oiled that we can putanybody into it and they're going to respond as we predict that they will respond, and that is not true. So higher great people. I think thatthere is even in sales, especially in complex sales, which again to meis becoming management consulting. There should be a healthy base salary, then thereshould be some variable comp but the variable comp should be based on a setof very simple, hard to game metrics, and I mean literally just like threeor four simple, hard to gain metrics, because, as everybody onthis program every listener knows, salespeople are expert and gaming any kind of compensationsystem and one of the problems that organizations have is that their compensation systems,in order to avoid gaming, become complex...

...and all that does is trigger morecomplex behavior on the part of the sales force and to the organization it exactsa cost, because the more complex the compensation system is, the more cumbersomeand expensive and administrative apparatus you have to have to monitor it, to enforceit, to litigate disputes within it. And so high grade people pay thema healthy base salary and have some variable comp based on some very simple directmetrics that matter. I think that's the general set of design principles that arebest. Again, just I'm going to be clear, for more complex consultativemanagement of consultant like sales. If you're going door to door selling pots andpants, pay people commission on every pot and Pan they sell. Yeah,you know, it's interesting. There's a whole can of worms that this topicmay ultimately open up. You know, I follow this stuff very, veryclosely. You may not follow as closely, but so you know, if you'rea mid market account executive, if you're selling something that's at twenty toFiftyzero solution and even beyond, most people's COMP is fifty base. And youknow, commission and many many firms, many many companies are really coming insaying, well, we're going to come in with a very low base,a base that some folks can't even live on, and then you're going tobut it's the ot it's the on target earnings, it's the ability to earnthis number that it put in the offer letter, which may or may notbe realistic. It's all based on whether or not the demand is really therefor the product. And so now the other side of that is that salespeople do tend to be the highest paid people in the company, and sothere's this whole tangled web that has to be untangled where, you know,maybe what we're saying is that we normalize sales compensation back to compensation that lookslike every other department where you know, three quarters of it is base salaryand there's a bonus component, but it's not this wild roller coaster that thatis the life of the salesperson right now. I think that's again depending on theindustry and the kind of sale that it is. I think that's inevitablywhere things are going to go. I think that in many ways sales compensationis a legacy of the simplicity of many kinds of sales transactions, pre Internet, pre automation, Pre Self Service, where you needed somebody to actually hitthe street and take the order. When sales becomes more complex, I thinkyou need, in general, a different compensation strategy. I think the mostimportant thing, though again I don't want to be here peddling simple solutions here. Think the most important thing that, which is exactly what you're hinting at, is to challenge the orthodoxy. Challenge you orthodoxy that the only way tomotivate salespeople is through low base salaries, fear of not being able to feedtheir family and dangling out Super High Commissions. It makes a lot of sense,Dan. We're essentially out of time. I want to leave a few momentsnow to see if we can pay it forward. So we obviously firstof all, just so that everybody knows and that we do the appropriate levelof publicity. The new book is called when the scientific secrets of perfect timing. I would imagine it's available where all booksellers books are sold, including yesand Jeff bezus is company and anywhere else. You can buy it on Amazoncom,BNCOM, indiecom, you can buy it at your favorite books and mortarbook store, including your local independent bookseller, all of them. The other booksare called drive and to sell US human. And then, I thinkyou're maybe the longest running, one is called a whole new mind. Youalso have a website, Dan Painkcom, where I think you have a newsletter, if I'm not mistaken, and book in some of their wonderful and sothen the last thing I would ask of you is you are one of theleading business writers. I always say, you know, in the universe,we don't know who else is out there on different planets, but certainly,but you know, what are the great books have you read? Who arethe authors or the thinkers that you are influenced by, so that we cansort of follow the journey? Oh, there's just so many great books andso many great writers out there. It's sort of it's in many ways anembarrassment of riches. So if you think about I think that someone like SusanKine, who wrote a book, a quiet about the power of introverts,could be very Germaine to a sales audience because there's some interesting research showing thatbeing a strong extrovert is not the best...

...way to be persuasive in a salessetting, that introverts and ambiverts can have some advantages as well. So Ithink that Susan kine would be good on that. I think that someone likeWhitney Johnson, who has written a book about how to build a great team, who was a former Wall Street analyst and venture capitalist, could have somevery, very, very, very very interesting things to say. There areDaniel coyle has a great book this year about teams and how teams cohere andhow teams operate. There is a fascinating book by Jeremy Hymns and Henry Timsthat just came out called new power, about how, you know, howmovements build in this remade landscape. I still am a fan of I usethe terminology all the time of Blue Ocean. The Blue Ocean folks, Champ,Kim and renee my born. So there's just a lot of really,really, really great stuff out there. Without that was an exceptional it's anactually typed it all down because I want to make sure that I sell fedof Fi. Dan, thanks so much for your time. We really reallyappreciate it. We said where we can find your books and thanks for contributing. I think we got on a lot out of it. Thanks and forhaving it's been a pleasure. Thank you. Go caps. Hello everybody. Thatwas Dan Pink World famous author, multimillion Ted Talk Viewing Getter, andthis is Sam's corner. Obviously we're incredibly excited and honor to have Dan onthe show. He has written so many interesting books and made so many usefuland interesting insights about the world. In addition to the comments that he madeabout his new book when, which talks about went that the science of figuringout when to do things, not just how to do them, to whomyou to do them. He has also talked a lot about motivation and oneof the things that I often reference in conversations with new managers and people thatI work with is this Ted talk, which is gotten over twenty million viewso definitely go take a look at it. In that talk he talks about autonomy, mastery and purpose, the things that motivate people. Autonomy, theopportunity to act independently, mastery, the opportunity to become excellent at something andreally develop a skill, and purpose, understanding the context and the Vision forwhy what you're doing contributes to a broader organization. I think about that alot and again, purpose for me comes down to context and communicating back tothe organization here's why you are doing what you were doing and here's how itrelates to our broader goal, and I think if we can keep that inmind we can keep all of the people in the organization with Him we're working. You can keep all of them engaged. So this has been Sam's corner.Thanks to Dan Pink for being a special guest. We look forward tomore special guests in the future and I thank you for listening and until then, I'll see you next time. To check out the show notes, seeUPHAM and guests and playing more episodes from our incredible lineup of sales leaders,visit sales hackercom podcast. Can also find the sales hacking podcast on itunes orGoogle play. If you enjoyed this episode, please share with your peers on Linkedin, twitter or elsewhere. Special thanks again to this months sponsors at aircall. See more at Air Call Dot I. Oh. If you wantto get in touch with me, find me on twitter at Sam f Jacobsor on Linkedin at linkedincom and Sam f Jacobs. I'll see you next time.

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