The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

15. The Art and Science of Pipeline Generation w/ Jeff Reekers

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Jeff Reekers, VP of Marketing, Aircall, talks about creating and executing lead generation marketing campaigns on E15 of the Sales Hacker podcast. Tune in now!

One two one: Three: THREE FO: everybody welcome to the Sales Hackerpodcast. It's your host, Sam Jacobs. We've got an incredible episodeupcoming today, we're interviewing the VP of marketing from aircall, Jeff,reakers and Jeffson incredible talent. So I'm excited for this interviewbefore we get started. I did want to give a thanks to our sponsors thismonth. Now Jeff is the VP marking from our sponsor. It's complete coincidence,because Jeff is on my top ten list of marketers regardless. But Air Call is aphone system designed for the modern sales teen. They seemiously integrateinto your crm, eliminating data entry for you, repts and providing y withgreater visibility into your team's performance through advance reporting.When it's time to scale, you can add new line, TI minutes and use thin callcoaching to reduce ramptime for your new ress. So if you're a rapout thereand you're frustrated with your existing phone system or if you don'teven have a phone system yet, but you want to get professional about it.visit air called that Io Soit ash sales hacker, that's air called tha, ioforward ash sales. Tacker to see why Weber, Donan, Bradstreet, hipe driveand thousands of others trust air call for the most critical salesconversations hayve been growing incredibly quickly and it's reallyexceptional technology. So I check out air call and then the last thing I'lldo is. I just want to thank some of the folks out there that are listening. Iwant to think Brian Cathlin who's, given some really good feedback he's inactually a good friend of mine, Michael Serunian, who's, an account executiveout at Simsara and San Francisco, who was talking about how to make the Leages requested an episode on how to make the leap from individual conjective tomanager and how to think about that Saam sleven who listens on his way towork, who was currently running account management at the mews and Anto Telino,who I see running on the west side highway sometimes, and who doesBusiness Development for SF partners, an private acely? Well so Bryan,Michael Sam and Andrew thanks, so much for listening and without further ADU.Let's listen to this episode with Jeffreakers thanks very much ieverybodywelcome to the Sales Hacker podcast another beautiful day in New York Cityand we've got an amazing host and a good friend of mine. We're reallyexcited today to welcome Jeffrey Grershe's, the VP marketing at air call.To my mind, he said he just literally told me doesn't want some sort of bigpromotional, ile and Intro, but nevertheless it's incumbent upon me tomention thet. I consider Jeff to be one of the best marketers that I've evermet. I met Jeff when he was VP marketing and handshake. He's got along, an illustrious career as a marketer over the past, probably tenplus years on both coasts and he'll, tell us all about his background, butreally one of the brightest hardest working in thost creative marketersworking in sast today. So we're really excited to have you welcome Jeff Ik Samreally excited to be a part of it and thanks fo that lovely introas. Well, Ithink he deserve it. You know, one of the things I say is any company thathas jeff reakers has a special secret weapon, so we're excited and I'mexcited to sort of share who you are with the rest of the world, because Ithink the rest of the world deserves to know so. Whyn on we get started, giveus a little bit of your baseball card. You. Obviously your names jeffreagersgive us a little bit more about the company, so your title is DPOFmarketing. Is that correct? Yes, correct, BP marketing and then thecompany is air call, also Corre Yeah Ercall, and so the revenue rain kind ofannual occurring range you non', Thi, O o specifics. It's obviously privatecompany Etcetea very confidential, but what's the revenue range of Ar callwhere the fifteen o thirty million dollar range? Wow? That's amazing,because I know a year ago when you started you ere not in that range, socorrect yeah been a lot of growth. Yes, yeah! That's awesome! Congratulationsamount of capital raised Ando our most recent funding ground yeah. We justfinished a series B in May and it was a twenty nine million dollar round andwe've rose about forty million today. Awesome so you're running marketinggive us tha size a rough size of, but...

...the marketing organ the sales organslike some of the positions. So we know how traditional and kind of what thethe deal size and the market category that you're going after US sure. So ourdeal size is starting there. It's been dramatically increasing over the pastyear, average deal size, celled, Fifteenk, ACV and when the phones IstoMark, so it very very broad market, but we tend op to focus on ECOM SASScompanies and specifically supporting sales teams within that and as far asthe team structure, we're split between the US and and Europe, so I oversee theworldwide marketing on both ends. Most of our marketing team is here in the US.There's eight members dedicate to that team. We also have a partnership teamwhich is really critical to the marketing and sales organization thatreports into myself as well. There's five members on that team, so sort ofthe geentire umbrellas, thirteen raps or thirteen members of the team there,I'm ten on the sale side on the US, and we have four CCOUNT executives andthey're paired with to scrs apiece and on the MMSSIDE. We have ten ACCOUNTNexecutives that are additionally paired with twostrs a piece putting tenstrsover there and on the US side the sdris reporting itst myself so sdr to a piece.So two people part to correct. That's awesome, yeah yeah! We we like to pod.We just refer to them as pots, but it's two people doing demanden for everyone.ACCONEXECUTIVE, that's correct! Yep, your genus! You are a revelation, we'regoing to dive into that, because that's really really interesting. How longhave we been in startup Plang, let's get into a little bit of who is JeffFreakers, Sir S, I've been involved in, I guest started bland for about tenyears now I originally came from where I started my career, which was at formsTHAs my first sort of real large position. I moved out after college toNew York City when I was out here. I would just look for didn't really havea lot lined up, but you know it's kind of wanted to find a plan to path. Atthat point I had done journalism, my entire life, and so that was sema fieldoriginally wanted to get into. I did in middle school, I did in high school, Idid in college, and so it made a lot of sense to me to get involved in thatworld. As soon as I got involved in Itti, it wasn't necessarily what I loveto do, and so I started going to back to school as well, and I did mymaster's degree Nyu and information systems there's a lot of different likepieces here, so I was doing information systems which had a big emphasis ondatabase architecture and very computer science focus. I was doing journalismin the daytime and this somehow led into a start up an marketing world. Igot introduced originally to Ancon NTREMENEUR, who is starting a companycalled lawline and I joined on there, and that was ort of my first taste. Youknow I was at forgs and it was very corporate feeling. It's an amazingorganization, of course, but I wasn't really my. I don't Know Cup tea, Iguess- and so I was fortunate enough to meet up with- I fell- name Daves,Servan, whows, starting lawline and help him grow that company over thenext four years en we grew to about. I suppose we had about fifty employees.We got to about six million going on ten millionai revenues, and that waslike my first taste of it, and I love that and I oversaw both the operationsand the entire marketing world and that's how I really got involved instartup marketing and there w's something about it. Where you know youput things out in the world that you come up with it on your own or as ateam, you put it out in the world and you have to see something happeninglike you're poking the world to a degree and there's a response to it.That was something I didn't necessarily see in a more corporate e environment,tatws, just very addicting, and so I think I got about ten years in thatfirst for and that really just started. That start of the path where you know Ihad a real direct connection from marketing into actual revenue. I tookthat model that we had there into future organizations, which was similarrules that I have now at TNKHR at handshake, where I was recently nowhere in the Erical. So a couple questions first, where are you from? Iwas born in Oakland California, and I grew up various places in the bay area.Okay, all right so and then where'd you go to school. Do you have any siblimsyeah yeah? So I went to Hundergrad a UC Davis. I played baseball. There Istarted out actually is interesting. I...

...went to a few different colleges. Istarted at Sant Mary's. College in Maraga ended up belieaving, as was alsosome scholarship. Issues went to JC for the next year and a half had to makeupa ton of courses over that time period and then ended up transferring intoDavis on a baseball scholarship and once sthap finished up, I playedbaseball professionally for about an extra year. I moved out to New York O.where, were you know my story? Kind of picked up in the beginning, and then Ido have two siblings. I've got a brother and sister, both senior to me.Oh so you're, the youngest. I am the youngest. Yes, that's reallyinteresting. The reason I asked about the siblings is because one of thethings I've always heard about you as your work ethic and I'm trying tofigure out. I guess where did it come from? That's a good question. I don'tknow if anybody really knows the answer, where motivation really stems fromwhere the work ethic stems from I'd, say, starting out in a very competitiveenvironment. I've always been extremely competitive and I was into athletics asa kid, and I was really good at baseball and tit's, something whereevery year was a part of a winning team, and I wasn't a part of Eher ever partof losing teams, and so it was sort of a something that built up and I thinkwhen you get a lot of acknowledgements, it's kind of like I'm Thikin Malconeglad about writes about this, and I think when you get a lot of recognitionfor something it', you know the propensity to do it increases and Ireally wanted to be the O, no, the best I possibly could at that sport. I, andso I had a really strong work at worth ethic there and they just kind ofcarried over into other areas. My hife yeah. It struck me because you'resaying you're, working at forbs by day you're going to classes at night youworknae picture yeah. I was working. You know ten hours a day there duingthe night classes. Even Saturday was you know, eight to six and classes, soI had Sunday to take a nap. I then just kick it back up, because I was doingschool through much a lawline as well, and so that was my routine for aboutfour years or so wow, if I recall correctly through all of our mutualfriends, in fact, e wev known each other a little bit. Are you a tryathlete too? Yes, Ive Don cuple ironmen in the past across country, Ski, likeany sort of endurance, sports, Eah kind of is where I get my I don't know my Iget it in at work every day too, but if it's not enough over the weekend that Iget travlons and an an Abrace I can in that's awesome, that's great all right.So, let's get back to work stuff. You know over the course of I guess Ho gotstarted at law line, and then you know hanshake and Aricall, and what are thelessons you know like? First of all, I'm just you said something reallyinteresting. You said that marketing is sort of you poking the world and seeingif you get a response but give us your your philosophy on marketing and howyou approach the concept f and maybe even what you define marketing to besure. befirst of I think marketing is relevancy in a particular market andI'd say some of the things I've really learned over. These experiences is one:That's you got to know your numbers better than anybody else in theorganization, and I this might be troe for other woles outside of market, butI think to have a really strong presence and to grow in your career.You've got to be able to talk numbers along Soi, the CEO, the CFO, and yougot to know your numbers, better t them, and you have to know how, specificallythey coordinate with other departments and the top goals for the organization,and so above meon. The most valuable thing for me has been understandingsort of the math behind marketing and how everything fundels down to revidue.Do you think it Floa to your point? You know there's a modern definition thesedays, that you know marketing anybody that saysn't marketing as anythingother than generating pipeline is sort of living in the past. Is that part ofwhat you define as the central KPI? Your job is to drive pipe lind growth.Yeah, I say, depends on the organization stage. I think certainlythat's always a goal, and certainly in the the earlier stages in a startupenvironment. That is the number one objective I think over time. As youhave a large and larger customer base more of your revenues coming fromexisting customers, it's coming from risk mitigation and minimizing risk,and so I think marketing starts to take on new functions over time, which isthinking customers more successful. Focusing on customer marketing brandbecomes very important when you're trying to mitigate risk, but I think inthe early days you've got to have just one central number and one thing youfocus on and that has to be supporting growth in Sporting. The sales team thatspecificaly through pipeline was there something specific that helped yougenerate. You know, besides ten years of experience, that sort of generatestrength of conviction, an your perspective on how to do marketing orbecause there's so many so many wide...

...raging perspectives on it. Well, Ithink that's regardless of where you are, and things always change, and sothe answers and the things that are working today. You know thet wasn't theright answer five years ago. I won't be the Bryn answer five years from now,and so one thing hat, I really believe, is putting experimentations a part oflike the core components of your marketing team. You've got to have thetracking in place and you've got to understand. You know at the unit levelhow different channels are working together and how to actually generatepipeline, how to convert your marketing in the pipeline, but when you have that,I think you have to just constantly be experimenting and wrapping that intoyour forecast for pipelineand for efficiency metrics. You know we have afew minutes here. We can give people, maybe a little bit of a one on one ifI'm trying to build pipeline like what are the pieces that go into the supplychain that ultimately ends up in somebody out in the world, mayberaising their hand, or at least agreeing to my SDR's email- to to havea conversation with me that everybody agrees as a is a commercialconversation as tha sales conversation. What are all the elements that I needto put into place for that moment to happen? Yeah so first, I think YEP gotagree, has an organization and marketing needs to be leading. This iswho you want to be relevant to, and I am extremely against anything. That's aspray and prey type of approach and I think the more narrow you are, the moreopportunity there is to grow. You Goang to be really relevant to an individualmarket, because if you are relevant to if you're really narrow, when you'remessaging and you're really narrow and your prospecting you're really narrowon you're marketing, that one customer will tell another custometil three andevery sale becomes and every opportunity becomes a little bit easierto generate. So these got to start there in extremely narrow market andusually when you're there I would go like one STEFP, even more narrow. Forexample, we really focus on not only support teams, not only commercesupport Teamis, but I want to focus on ECOMMERCE support teams. Thatto have aspecific growth rate that are also in New York City, and I know if they're inNew York City they're going to talk to each other, and so you want tos. Fok isreally really narrow and I think that's the first thing and the second part isunderstanding how the customers buying as well. You want to be in front ofthem in two ways. One youto have a really strong value prop and SOTER' aproduct marketing element there. I think TDEMANGIN, Really Das n kind ofHack Af, but over the long term you want have a really solid value propthat that you can take into the market to when you really want to startfocusing on particular Aro. You have to be in front of people where they'researching and have be in the relevant channels, which is why I don'tnecessarily love this channel versus that channel is really understandingthe customer they searching o the Hangg on linked in when I was in, I think, HR.For example, we sold into HR teams who lived on Linkdon. We did tons ofmarketing on Linkedon because that's where they lived, but outside of that,when I'm doing support teams, that's not really, where they're hanging outso we're not focused there. WOR ME support teams hang out. A support. Teamis generally on their computer all day long. I think, like a help desk team,something like that and they're generally absorbed in one concept. I EN, when you think about the pain points that they have. It's making sure thatthe customers are happy and the the experiences are really great and sothere's a really strong content. Marketing helement there. Additionallysupport teams are always indated with more than they can handle more ticketsthat they can't keep up with and if you're growing your team's, never bigenough. UNSO you're always looking for more efficient ways to make your teamhappy to grow your team to handle tickets, and if you can create contentaround that first, you can create a product around that this fantastic. Wecreate content around that that's even better, so we really focus heavily onon the content that were putting out and leveraging partnerships, forexample, there's tons of softwares that these companies already using, and Iwant to be very relevant to them so when we relevant to that communitythey're using zendssing, intercom on'd have really great Lal Relationsp withthose companies, and I want to do comarking with them. With its Webbinars comarketing pieces on contents, white papers, blog post, whatever itmight be, and then the last part is. I want to get some helt down going, andso I want to buil support that Inboun to me, the inmoun component, and thattype of marketing is to support the outbem. It's great you're, going to getsome trials from it and if you really have a good value, propt you're goingto see people that the timing works out.

They're searching they're going to findyou if you've got a good, so presence. But I also want to sport that withoutthem, particularly if my CV's high enough, so that if I'm targetd enoughon the inbound side, when that outbound team is reaching out, they can use mycolaterole and when they reach up to somebody. They already know who aircall is so Dow Boun Rep is reaching out and the prospect ther they're, touchingbasewith or the reaching out to does not know. Who Air Call is: that's areally bad job hin the marketing side. We want to make sure that we're reallyrelevant and ar really focused in our prospecting and our marketing effortsare really directly tied in with the oubounce side, and I think, if you havethat you know yous good foundation, so that's a fantastic overview. If I'mthinking about Thnhr frome thing about lawline handshake now, Ericall do youfeel, like you, have a specialization in a specific market segment? Are you akind of like midmarket? You know zero to Fiftyk deal size person, or do youthink that these skills reigned from SNB all the way up to massiveenterprise deals where you can close, you know m a million dollar ACV, or isit very specific I think there's nuances to each one? Certainly justlike there would be f. You know on the most extreme men you're doing BTC,which is which is inherently, is different. There's core fundamentalsand marketing which don't change it's being extremely velevent to a veryspecific market, and that's not going to change, no matter where you are howyou go about doing. It's certainly going to change. If you have a very lowATV product, you're- probably not going to focus hevily on outdown, what'sgoing to be most important, for you is to understand the search terms and to have a really strong selfservedmodel, and so your modelis going to change a little bit. SOMG me aboutsupporting outbound ther's, going to be about being as efficient as you can onthe enbounce side. Once the ACV goes up, you start getting to outbound more theunit economic start, making more sense and you have to nurture, leads a bitmore because there's more sophistication on the product, dom andso hat that goes more and more extreme on the enterprise. Sie F you're goingto get much less focus on pure in bound trials, demos that sort of thing,because it's less about timing on that aspect, it's more about supporting thesales conversations and building a usecase within the company. So there'score elements, but it's going to change at every level and I'd say on mypersonal end, I like being as close to the sale as possible, and so I alwayshave a bias on da it sort of the size that we're at right. Now the Min MarkEp tassand beside because then you're dealing with sales cycles from fourteenyrs are about fourteen to forty five days, depending on the size of the deal,and I like Bein, really close to the sale like that wow, I'm surprised thatyou can get like a forty five day, sale cycl on system, which is a phone system.I would imagine that sort of implementing it or ripping out the oldsystem putting in the new system require some work. Is that incorrect?That's someone! That's one of OUR LARGEST VALUE PROPS! Is that it'sextremely s! You can self service if you want and that's something that we emarket very very heavily. We leverage that, because most traditional phonesystm telecom systems are little bit clunkier and take longer to set up I'veset up some in my past as well. So I know first hand and we leverge thatquite a debth and so the sale cycles we feel to be much shorter. I'd also sayit's a need to have to must have product that you have to have phones.Most organizations must have a phon system. If you're support tea, you musthave a phone system, and so when you're working in a must have productenvironment, it also makes the Timin homee a little bit easier. So when acontracts- U It makes it easier, toiscit sale, yeah, absolutely talkingabout. You mentioned a little bit about knowing the Uni Economics and some ofthe key drivers to success, and I want tos sort of layer in two questions. Oneof the sort of what do you think the biggest drivers to success are in yourrole, but also specifically thi mentioned. You know because we werechatting before you joined air call and I think they were. You know. I thinkyou probably grown six seven atx over the course of the last year. So how dyou put a plan together? How long did it take you to put that plan together?What did the plan include when you presented it to? I don't know his name,but the CEOOF Arco, I think is: Is he French yeah we're Paris Pace, companyFrench fally company, Mr the Frenchman, that that called me to do thatreference back? Yes, RS do Yeh and he brings you in and he says, Jeff do yourthing. You know we just need to grow. We need to grow quickly. How do you puta plan together? What does that look...

...like? Well the big issue that we werehaving at the time there were a few, but the first place. Thof star wasaround efficiency, metrics and the unit economics. And if you look at a model-and it has- you know one point- seven twoo one LTV Cak Braccio a few thingshave to change inherently about about the business, because it's very toughto take that and Sav me the Tenxi, because, if you're wrong, you have verylittle slack, you very little work with if you're not as effician as you think,and you go down to one point: Five for less een, even that two, you don't havea really scalbule indestible organization wea to to one LTV. Thekack means you don't really have a company right, so we're around for lastquarter around five to one. It depends how you coclated as well as we look atTech. You know the payback curd as well. We try to stay within a payback creadeof six Dave months and Lt Ge, a calcuratial about three and a half toone upwards of four. I think were above that Io'd, rather just pet, want tospend more money, but we try to keep it there. So we have some patting behindthit as well, and that's where we're at right now I ik pay back cariod betterthan Ltvto Keck, because you know air calls how ever many years old, like theconcept of l TV little bit of a misleading thing, I mean it's all thismath ratios, but everless yeah exactly this is, and I I think, if you've gotto start there, so that you have something that you can tour ful on. YouGot Une your sale cycles, a D and if you have, if you're efficient, you cankind of project out from there. So the first thing we looked aut when I joinedabout a year, I guen spend o a year and a quarter now was tiing through thosemetrics. First thing, those obvious thing: If I keep the other constance,even win rates, Mae sails cycles go up a little bet, but the number one thingwas around everage revenue for account. You know our far ARPA goes up. Thenthat's going to make everything much much more efficient and SOT 's firstabout changing a model from a very inbalanced centrip one. Very. I guessyou you O, you know: Wer Smb were very focused on the ass into. How do wegenerate more mini market sal deals. This obviously impacts a lot of thingsin pacts, EF product tacks, how we sell, and it certainly impacts, how we'redoing a marketing, and so I think one thing if you, regardless your role, themarketing sales, get to have a really strong opinion. You have to have a lotof conversations, a know how to collaborate across your team, becauseyou can't do it in isolation. I can't just say I'm going to increase. Youknow o our Revenue Cor Count, because I'm just going to source larger dealsand it's all Beeng to workout. Just fine. If you do that, it's going tohave product implications, sales is going to have to change. E Lat has tochange minds on f. The company has to to a degree, and so you have to reallycollaborate first off and sell it across the entire orvanization thatJusti see yo cross the ord, and then I think, once you do, that you startenhancing. Your messaging is going Bac Rig back to what we're talking aboutbefore as being really relevant to a specific market. You know that was theoriginal game plan was going from a very smb focused, very le driven modelinto a more pipeline driven model. We're looking at corvrage, ratios orsale. Staging is improving. Our marketing is there to support the salesand SR functions. We start closing big deals. We start understanding them andyou just build those blocks one by one by one you create more of an accountbased marketing approach. Did you build a budget? Did you go to the CO and sayyou know? I spent sixty days thirty days and ninety days, however long itis and here's how much money you know if you want to get to ten million orfifteen million an hour or it's going to take us, I guess it six eight months,Pav Xperien might only take to five or eight million bucks, but I need fivetaght million bucks right now. If you want to do this thing well, I go withMyo my own testing mindset, like I W nt before I go full blownind, something onnoites working, and so that was the reason I was brought in was dod. Youknow was it wasn't like I came in and go figure something out. It was obviousthings that we need to improve on and marketing the rule of marketing wasverty clear. It was, did increase our our avrage deal size and generates omeof a different function within the company that didn't exist before, andso it was more about one changing the model into pipeline model, gettingagreement on that and then, as far as the budget goes, it was more abouttesting concepts. I was in a very bulsh environment where I was brought in todo a job, and so obviously I hd to show the numbers behind it and pose a budgetwhich I did as fairly conservative in the beginning. But then every quartergets more aggressive, more aggressive, more aggressive as UNI economics, Sareimproving and it goes from maybe a...

...quarter or two of testing things out,showing some value to really building a long turm model of so that and did yougoing back to the Ork Trot that we mentioned you know a few minutes ago? Idon't hear a lot of folks, especially like a Fiftenk twenty k deal size. Iknow that you guys are doing barger jails as well, but I haven't heard alot of folks say: Yeah We'reg, it's one to two for every account executive,we're going to have tosdrs, and did you come in with that conviction thatthat's a way to sort of mean? I love it, because what you're fundamentallysaying is demand generation is the thing that drives revenue. The salespeople catch the demand, but I'm OINTA slowhim with demand. I coan raise theirquotas I want to. I don't need to hire a million sales people, so I just Ireally love the philosophy, but did you come in with that philosophy or sort ofdid you iterate or find it or discover it within the mass? We were discoveredit within the math. What we thought the average outbound rap a was going toaccomplish what ur average deal size was. What a sales cycles were, and it'svery clear to me: that' when we're driving Inbeld, we can drive it to acertain extent. We can get more leads, but you lose a little bit of controlwith what's going to come in bound the exact company. What are the fits,really great or not, and ultimately, like that's one thing, I'm veryconcerned on Li. If the deal the opportunity is a really great setfaircall, and I think you actually lose that of debt on the INBALN side, and sowe've looked at the thousand companes we want to sell to. We want to sellinto twenty percent of them this year. How do we do that? How manyopportunities can we create permonth off of that and how many SRS do we needin a way that still fits th? The budget? Can we scale efficiently, W say threeto one LTV TO CAC ratio with a twto one SDRDA uratio and WH. We looked upnumbers and what we were doing. We were accomplishing that, and so I want to beas o as aggressive as possible with a very investible framework at the unitlevel, and so that was the most aggressive. We could be with a littlebit of safety and patting under it tosupport the account executives, italso built in a lot of things. I it's a one, the one and you're just gettingstarted: you're building your first str team, tos, just so much risk involved.If that SAR doesn't work out, he leaves cere. She leaves she's just not good ifthe model's, not great and so you've got to built him slack into everythingwhich is Ilsill, say that word a lot, but you really have to build slack intomodels and so early on it was also about creating a little bit of slack inthe models that we had got it and bet to the point. You know some people saybuild slackinto the a side of the model but you're saying well. I guess youalready had three or four. So maybe you had enough people where you felt likeif one person laugh your one person got promoted, there were still enough. Onereason I like it on the SDR side: vers the ACCOUNTI's active side is if you'veinundated your account executives with pipeline, and you know our averagequarter teament something around yeah a hundred an thirty hundred forty percentof month, and we keep raising them, but we keep you supplying more pipeline tothem as well. I think it was really clear how you scale the team. If youstart seeing the small deals slip through, I know I can start addingextra acount executive into the mix or we can. We can add an EXRA countyexecutune to to make of the pipeline before versus everyone's at eightypercent. You threw another count executive in there and maybe it dipsdown to seventy five. Seventy percent. That does a lot for the culture as well.It's a very excited team, if you're hitting in excess of your your quota,everyonce exactly right. So let's talk a little bit about some of the channelsthat you really like I'm jumping around in terms of our list of questions, butI think you'll be okay with it. So you know what are some of the interestinginsights if I'm a Ima, a young founder or if even I'm, I'm the VP marketing orvpsl Lat's listening to this right now and I'm thinking about what are the newways or the interesting ways of the unexpected ways that I can go out thereand create piplane. What's been working for you recently? Oh start this offwith I'd, say the SASS market as a whole Sassi as a whole, is morecompetitive than it's ever been, and it's extremely noisy the email in boxes.You know mine, I have two emails, one is the one that gets captured on allacross the Internet and that's filled with SR emails. I've got another onefor internal and extral communications that I just use and so we're getting soinindated with really traditional marketing methods, or, I think, Wat'skind of viewed as sort of like the newer age, which is the email,marketing and ad words which you know.

The cost for Click is just gettinginsane on a lot of online advertising. So I consistently try to think of whatthe rest of the market is not doing so I can capture somebody's attention andwhen you look at you've, got to do this in a way that makes a senseeconomically. But if you have a very narrow market, a really strong message-hat say: A thousand five hunged counts whatever it is, and I know specificallythe names all those people who I want to get the attention of it becomes alittle bit clear how it can actually get their attention. What events dothey go to a trade shows? Do they go to what are the problems that they haveand I can create a lot of campaigns based off of that and the way I lovedoing this, like we even know it down to the level of like what are theirrouts to work where they from in New York City. Here, for example, we do aton of marketing. We've got urban hads on like telephone polls and stuff. Likethat, we play off the phone system thing on the telephone polls. We'vemapped it out by ZIP code. We know that there's five hundred target Accountsowe have in about six different, ZIP codes. We target those buildings. Evenwe work with an agency to do that. So we know on their commute to work everyday, they're going to see thes. So now that's Lic Goinna jump on the Internetand go sign up. FORAIR call they've actually had that happen, but they'regoing to see us every day. They see that Ad. Fifteen days later, they get amailer from us that plays in the same concept and we send them a huge. What Icall attention grabbers, it's something that's going to sit in the office, anexample one that we did over the Christmas break or over the with thewinter break, was sort of like a help: Cat Survival Kit for support teams. Ifit's a difficul time of the year, there's a lot of questions, a lot ofseasonality for support teams over that time of the year, particularly for ecommerce, and so we sent this little survival kit thos. This big box setgame that had like mince in it. Tand I've had tissues, T AF, they're GOINNA,think if they have a tough conversation, there's all sorts of jokes and bet inthis big box of little gifts, kind of played on the urban ads that we weredoing, then they get in out reach from an SDR as well. Three days later andthat person responds with a thank you for the gift to sparks of conversationand that's how we startd getting deals from those, and so I guess what I'msaying is. I would look at really understanding the customer fromeveryreangle how they can hear about you and ways that they're not gettingfrom anybody else in your market, and then I would think about the steps atare necessary to convert that into a conversation, and I would think ofreally untraditional means that to get that done right now, we do a lot on thetraditional adside and it's been pretty effective for US love it. This is whymarketing is so cool, because what you're describing is just extremeempathy you're, like you, have to put yourself in their shoes. You have towake up in their bed and do everything that they do during the day and thenuse that to figure out. Where can you put a message that can bring themtowards you right and one thing that I think that has been detrimental to themarketing world? Recently, it's about channel optimization. Of course. Ithink that this I more assing me go. The most small business go, the morechannel optimization is critical, but it's something I look at an buckets. Ilook at inbound, outdownd partnerships. I understand and I think anybody hasunderstand the influence so on a almost intuitive level. You can certainlymeasure it to a degree, but you have to understand the experience level and youhave to go back to basic marketing prociples of things like frequency andplacement and make sure you value those over. I have to present the efficiencyof my direct mailers next month. I don't want to do that. I want topresent the efficiency of the initiative as a whole, which is goingup to these one thousand accounts. Here's what we spent against hit andhere's what the result is and then within the marketing team. We want totalk about tist subfunctions of how each chanmelis impacting him, and Ithink that focus on channel has been somewhat of a negative for marketingteams, because it's too easy to just fall into that, and I think it'smisleading and it's more about creating those experiences. Yeur genius. Soihave agohave a controversial question for you or t s not really controversial.It's an off debated, subject and that subject is the is the value of tradeshows. So I mean you know the frames, but just for the audience blone frameis or I don't even know that these are different decision. fectors they're,just you know some people prepare an an inordinate amount for a trade show. Sothey'l try to get the tendy list. They'll do a mat in some ways. They'llstop the organization from everything else that it's doing hey we're going tothis conference. It's the big...

...conference of the year, everybody! Youknow, Sdrs Hammer, the phones we got to get. We got to book all of our meetingsin advance. Stop all businesses usual. Until we can get those meetings, thenwe get there and the trade show and the maybe there's a couple. traid shows porcompany that they just take over the whole thing. There's probably likeanother world, that's a little bit less intense. You sign up for a bunch oftrade. Shows you go. You send a couple people, it's a little bit more at Hawk.On the other hand, it doesn't disrupt from like the traditional, you know,marketing, dimand generation activities as much and maybe there's another worldwhere you say well, we're only going to go to trade shows if we can seak atthem. That's something that some people say. I don't know that it's alwayspossible to spe, got a trade show to to sort of focus it like that. All of thatis a long, wanded preamble to say. What's your approach to trade Chos,particularly giveen? What you just said, which is that you have to look at it asa campaign as an initia whole as opposed to just one event, did we makeour money back from that? EFTET? Yes and I'd say it doesn't really changewhen it comes to a trade Showi'm very bullish on trade shows we infest morein trace was an probably anything h, any other single. You Know MarketingChannel, but I think it has to fit in with your original initiative. And ifthe initiative is this onethousand companies, I want to know all the tradeshows that they're going to. I don't want to be going to every show andwondering if it's going to be successful or not and sitting up abooth there. I want to know where that one thousand is going and a couplethings going to happen. If you do that really well, they'll come up with alist that suits the business, might be really aggressive if Goini industrythat ebraces it or has a lot of different markets that you're in itmight be small, maybe 's a few shows a year, but if it's really relevant tothe market, I'd say certainly want to be there, and I look at that on thamulti yeur level as well. I don't look at thirty days after the show exactlyhow we did. I want there's leading indicators after the show if we've donewell, but I want to be president at that over the years be really relevantto this market, because it's critical for me to do that and I'd say it'ssimilar to the outbound inbel model that we were discussing earlier. If I'mgoing to a show, I want to know which of the companies that are my thousandcountless are going to be at that show, and certainly di't want to. Let themknow I want to run events with them. I want to o Breakfast with them. I wantto set up meeting is beforehands. We likely already had conversations with alot of these companies, and so it's more willing that they're going to sayyes, what I don't want to do is take the entire trade show list, O tetendesblast everyone and try to set up meetings. That might be good or mightnot be good. I want to save that for the show, so I want to have a reallytargeted approach on the outbound side, because if you just change your focusas a team on the trade show, there's opportunity cost to it, you're going tolose what you're building everywhere else, and so you got to stick reallycore to the original model that you have and for us that's hat accountbased model and thet. When the show comes, you want to have those meetingset up with the accounts that are assigned to the strs already and to youwant to set up some Minnes Inboun funnels that are out the show if yourtarget market is at that show- and it's validated certainly there's morecompanies that you can get gather on an inbeln level that have the samepayinpoints. The same use cases maybe there'r smaller deals that you wouldn'tput an outbound person on, but in mass, when that many people are at the show,and that's Li can show the product to you know a hundred extra companies,then certainly I'm going to take that opportunity. So I think that's how youhave to look at it. I love it. A few more questions. It's been amazinghaving you on Jeff, so thank you so much you're, it's always illuminating.If I'm thinking about I'm a sales leader listening to the podcast orsales executives and I'm looking across the Ise at the marketing organization,what's the one thing sales leaders should get from markgetting one thingthat always want to avoid and I've seen this before is you can't have one teamthat wins in another team that loses meaning if I'm in marketing org and ourgen our goalis to generate x amount of pipeline? We accomplish that, but thesales team is not successful at quarter. Then it's not a great culture to haveone team winning and another one losing. So I think it's about having reallyshare goals and shared metrics. I am incentivized, for example, and I wantthis to be my incentive on on of course, pipeline oure efficiency metrics thatwere growing our pihland efficiently and the third one is our our revenuegrowth. So I want to be directly tied...

...in with the sales function, and I putthat on everyone on my team as well, so everyone feels that they were part ofthe sit, a part of the sales team and in fact we have really strong culture,and this is something that Olivia has says promoteed much more than I have,but something I believe dearly on as well is that everyone should know withthat. revunue number is at any given moment if youwere at that's at Ar call,and you Hase, O single member on the marketing team. What the revenue numberis, they would be able to side it down to you, probably within you know, toNeara thousand, because everyone knows what that is at all times and that'show we judge yourselve on success in that. If you have that, then youjustbecome more part of them. The sales or you understand the painpoints-understand what they need, and if you have that sort of shared conqueringplan B, that's the most important thing. I really completely agree. Let's sharea little bit of love, I'm curious. What's in your marketing stack yourcreative demand, gen focus actually kind of like all encompassing marketer,but what are some of the tools that you're, using or not using first of I'd,say about tools, and I realize I'm definitely in the SAS world, but I liketo keep the team in Slan as possible and they an avoid thin. You can throwstassat problems when the times when you shouldn't throw a Sass conduct thatthe problem you should solve the underlying issue and before I invest inanything, I want to make sure that it's not meant to reinvent anything thatwe're doing it's accelerating something that we're doing or making a processthat we know is good much much better, but some tools, dubing, said some toolsthat we really love and they're, not necessarily marketing tools, all thet,the one is for collaboration and because it's going back to he pointearlier. Collaboration across the team is really critical and collabrationwithin the team is critical. We something called product- I don't knowhow many people know about it's cue notion, no tion, fraw marketingprojects ar planning sharing it across the team. It's essentially replacementfor Google docks ever notes. We use collateral and share clatter with themarketing or the sales team there, and it's a really really valuable resourcereally easy to use. We use the tritional stuff sales forse we've gotpart on on the marking aunomation and we got sales loft which all the repslove quite a bit. Wese linked in sales prospect, AU use any like full cycle.Marketing attribution tos like visible, I think, is, as one of them are fullcircle. I think don't at the moment. I would love to use it at some point, butfor the most part, we're getting our campaign influence campaign attributiondirectly out of sales force, and I think one thing that is really easy tonot do is to pass to go light on the marking operation side when it comes tosales force campaigns and one thing that we're taking more and moreseriously is tracking everything out of sales force in getting our costporlidout of there and making sure that H, that's really really up to date, and ifyou have a really Soli toundation there, the other tools become much morevaluable. In my opinion, so we haven't quite got to the point where investingin recording tools but would love it at some point yeah. So who are some of thefolks that have infulence you F, Fe're thinking about? Maybe your favorite,DPS sales or CRO or CMOWHO are some folks that we should know about that.Have played a big role in your life Dur. One of the biggest influences for mehas been gentleman Impressdin Clark I overlafedwith Truston at CNHR, Hus vpsals. There she's kind of fascinating story. He'spresident of Everpi right now, everfize you learning company with maybethousand ploys ondthing like that they broht risen, a ton of money, he's sortof a good counterbalanced to me. If I'm a little bit more on the marketing side.But with a you know, a sales influence he's the salesperson with the somereally good marketing TNA and I've learned a ton of from him and a lot ofH. things t e said today were probably you know: Potstollen compressding atsome point and all right, pressed in Clab we're going to look him up anyfounders or investors that you think we should know about on the founders. ThenI have a hard time if I haven't really gone through the sort of the battleswith somebody to really know what they're like, and so I appreciate a lotof accomplishments, many founders, but when you're really in the ground floor-and you know battling through things things when you really can startappreciating someone to a large degree, I really love Piazo, who is or CEO atin founder at at TNHR, these one of the...

...most competitive people. I've ever meton the planet and has built some phenomenal that companies over hiscareer we've talked about them before in the past, but you know Glenand Mikeover plen coats, Michael N, Gran, Oeread, a handshake, I've been v Munchamy career as well, I'm very loyal to you know the those people that I'veworked with in the past and I've learned a ton from them. Well, that'sone of your great qualities. What about books, content that we should create?If we want to be more like Jeff Reakers, any suggestions on books, we shouldread or podcast s. We should listen to that. It aren't this podcast. How do wetake some of these ideologies or these lessons? And, and where did you learnhow to do this? Sometimes I could ask a lot of there's like a specic marketingbook or or whatnot that I've read. That was really influential, but I think theones there are good ones, but the ones that are more influential to me areconcepts that don't necessarily pertain to marketing. But are you know ways ofthinking that can influence how you think about marketing? So my favoritebook is one called thinking in systems by Dona Meadows essentially is is abouthow you can create anything as a the world is created with systems and thesfeedback mechanisms there that you can improve and iterate on, and it's goesback to sort of the you know the database management background that Ihad so I think that's a really valuable book that portains any department andis more about a way of thinking to produce a result. A that's been veryinfluential in wonderful, any last thoughts before we partways on aSaturday morning. I guess my only last thought is, regardless of it'smarketing or sales or or any other role. I THINK ONE YO! U Know underlying valueof all of us, as professionals is to have sort of a thesis or a mission,something we have to say in the SASS world as a full and to have thatsomething to say and to make sure that you are saying it on a daily basis andimplementing it in your teams, and it's really easy to get bottled down withthe demands of h day today in a particular in a startup world. But Ithink tikkeeving that, like clarity and focus on what you want to go toaccomplish, Rin your career and putting that out every single day in action issomething that like is really easy to lose. But I think that's the mostimportant thing that we're all doing every civil day wise words, you guys,may be hiring considering how fast you're growing. So, if anybody'slistening and wants to get in touch with you. What's the are you open tothat and if so, what's the best way, yeah so 'm certainly open to anybodythat wants to reach out for rules at ar call. You can email me a real emailaddress, so the one that is meant for people which is Jeff Jeff Period,reakers R, EEK ers at air called at Io Linkdon's, good twitteris good. If youcan figure out my mobile phone number and your NSTR Sumet text, and thatthat's cudo you for doing that. That's fantastic awesome! JV! Thank you! Somuch for coming on the show. We really appreciate it and can't wait to see youin person whenever that is next thanks, Samt, it's a pleasure, uwaning, hey everybody at SAM's corner! You knowall the episodes and all the interviews are good dmobligated to say that. But Ireally do think that Jeff freakers is a really special talent and it really hasgreat insights into marketing a couple of the things that I hope you took away.One of them is just the focus on the ICP, the ideal customer profile. Hesays he doesn't just want for AIRCOL. He doesn't just want se four teams. Hewants the fourteens, adde commerce, companies within New York City and so,and he says that he gets more and more leverage. The more specific and narrowthat he gets when it comes to targeting second thing, very specific and uniqueinsight which idjust love. If anybody knows me, you know, I'm alwaysadvocating invested marketing before sales to SDRs two onae, and this isn'tmillion dollar deals. These are their average dial, sigces fifteen thosanddollars to SDRs to want to e Slo theas with iike sled them like hiplane, makethem successful their quota tanements a hundred and thirty percent. So manycompanies, sixty percent quota ATAINMENT, seventy percent quartartainment higher and more AES to get to your revenue plant. That's not goingto work, it does not work. You need to invest in marketing before sales andrekers understand that implicitly guess. The final thing is think about theempathy that he demonstrates when he's...

...when he's putting together theirmarketing channels, he talked about understanding the commuting roots ofthis customer, the commuting rootes they have their their accounts, theirthousand accounts. They have them broken up by Zipcode. They have aircall signs plastered on telephone calls on the way to where these people go towork. They know the specific muldens where their customers work. It's adegree of empathy and projection that I really don't see very often in themarketing world. So if you're out there and you're a marketer think about thatapproach. Think about your unit economics. Can you afford to havetosdrs? Can you floog your as with demand so that everybody is high fivingand the marketing teams happy an the sale seems happy and it's not thateither team is, is winning ore losing in, in contrastto the other? So so many great lessons really just honord to have jeff on theshow, and- and thank so much for listening- Talk to you next time, Ocheck out the show, notes, see upcoming guests and play more episodes from ourincredible lineup of sales leaders visit sales, hackercom, lash, podcastYo can also find ut, says always on itunes of thoge play. If you enjoyedthis episode share it with your peers on Likeden, twitter or elsewhere. Thisepisode was particularly special because we had Jeffreakers Wev ofmarketing. Air Call is this month sponsor so see more of them at aircalled Taut io, but I can assure you why would have had jeff on the show,even if they weren't a sponsor just because he's so insightful. If you wantto get in touch with me, please do so. You can find me on twitter, at Samf,Jacobs, foron Linkdan at Lingthoncom, slash and slash Sam f Jacobs and thanksfo everybody who's written in, and please continue to do so I'll see younext time. I.

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