The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 4 years ago

17. The True Secrets to Successful Enterprise Sales w/ Dave Govan

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This week on the Sales Hacker podcast, we feature longtime CRO, Dave Govan to chat about complex negotiations and sales cycles in enterprise sales.

One, two, one, three, three, Poe high folks, welcome to the Sales Hacker podcast. We're excited about our new sponsor. This episode is being brought to you by outreach, the leading sales engagement platform which triples the productivity of sales teams and empowers them to drive predictable and measurable revenue growth by prioritizing the right activities and scaling customer engagements with intelligent automation, outreach makes customer facing teams more effective and improves visibility into what really drives results. Thousands of customers, including cloud era, glass door, Pandora and Zillo, rely on outreach to deliver higher revenue for Sales Rep without further ado, let's get on with the show. I everybody. Welcome to the sales hacker podcast. It's your host, Sam Jacobs. I am delighted to have on today's show a good friend of mine, someone I consider a mentor, a founding member of the New York revenue collective and just an all around great guy and one of the most respected sales leaders in the New York Metropolitan area. So we've got Dave Govan. He's a VP of sales currently for pentaha solutions, which is part of Hitachi e Ventara. But really quickly, let me tell you Dave's background, his very impressive background over the last must be more than twenty years, but he'll tell us. First he ran his own and consulting from G to strategic advisory services before joining Pintaho. He's also been chief for Revenue Officer at dynamic yield, at sale through he was svp of North America at Veri sign he was svp of sales and professional services at JE software. He was an area VP earlier in his career at net perceptions in the personalization space, and he's also been a kick ass contributor at Oracle and at DC. So welcome Dave to the show. Thank you, Sam. It's great to be here. We are excited to have you, my friend. So why don't we start off really quickly with your baseball card so that everybody that's outside of the New York Tri State area can get to know you a little bit. So your name is Dave Gov and give us your title? Sure, I'm a VP of sales at Hatachi Ventara for pentahoe solutions. So how big is Hitachi and how big is sort of your purview for Penta home. So the TACHI VENTARA is a four billion dollar technology company headquartered in Santa Clara and we are part of Hatachi Limited, which is an eighty two billion dollar global conglomerate. That's big. And how long have you been doing a the startup thing? How or at least the sales leadership thing? Sales leadership twenty years. Have had a really exciting mix of early stage companies and public companies. You know, it's always interesting for people that are earlier in their career if they want to be cro at places like sale through, where we've had a guest, cassie young, who you know, and places like dynamic yield. We always like to know how you got there. So tell us your origin story. Tell us where you came from and how we ended up speaking on the phone today. Sure, so, I'm actually from outside the industry. I'm from a family that I grew up in a busy family restaurant environment in a rural part of New Jersey on the border of Pennsylvania and decided to take a different life path than I think my parents desired and went off to college and earn a degree in marketing and computer science and was always very excited about technology, so hence I joined a tech industry quite a while ago. was really focused on the people aspect of the business and really love the commercial side, so I went into tech sales. So what was your first job out of school? So I joined deck when I was really young. At the time it was the second largest computing company in the world and we're competing with IBM and HP etc. At the time it was probably around eight billion a year when I joined and when I left it was around fourteen billion, and we use selling mainframes. Is that right? What was the thing that you were selling? What? Deck revolutionized the industry with servers. Really IBM was known for mainframes and as a several other companies. A deck was a pioneer...

...in the space, sort of like the Google of its day, and had brought around Ethernet and client server and lots of really great innovations. We had about a two billion dollar professional services business, around a three billion dollar software business and the rest was servers, hardware, storage, printers etc. I was really fortunate. I was kind of looked out in that I wound up in large enterprise sales as a very young person and went through an extensive training being period there six months in the field and in classroom training. It couldn't have been a better starting ground for me in terms of learning the tech industry. Do they have strs back then? Sort of? How did they bring you into the organization? YEA, for the advent of kind of like the modern sales architecture. Yeah, so they didn't really have SDRs per se. They had, you know, marketing functions, but they did have sales training programs. So they were always looking for young college graduates or folks with a couple of years of experience that they could bring into what they call a more of like a sales development program and you were given a role in a mentor and and an assignment and you basically learned and you sold and interacted with CIOS and directors in it and business, and then they invested in continually in your training and growth and, you know, you could rise to whatever level you wanted to pretty much. And then so you went from there to Oracle. Is that right? Yes, it's always interesting for people to hear about the path from individual contributor to ultimately to manager. And I know after Oracle looks like that was the moment that you made the jump to VP. So you know, walk us through that evolution and I guess what are the things that you think you did particularly well that enabled you to make that transition from individual contributor to manager? Sure that's a great question. So Oracle was really starting to take off when I joined. was recruited into Oracle really like the software side of the business when I was at deck. So it was very attractive to me and also so the reputation for higher incomes in Oracle was pretty wellknown, which is something I was interested in, of course, and so I transitioned over to Oracle and did very well there. I think it was with in my second year I was actually global account manager of the year. I received an award for an Oracle's executive committee. So I showed a lot of I had been selling for a while, you know, I was at deck for eight years and so I had a lot of experience that was very relevant and I was able to translate that experience at Oracle, as well as my large account relationships and really, you know, hits tride there. I also learned a lot at Oracle really about, you know, software business practices and and you know, the sort of sales process side of enterprise software sales, and so it went really well and I always had a desire to grow in my career and I really like serving others and any effective leader knows that the end of the day it's really all about your team and your customers, and so I had the mentality and I think that my management recognize that. So, coming off of like a really great year, I received a double promotion to a regional manager level. It's like a first level VP, and I was pretty young at the time. I didn't really have much training in the way of management or leadership alf that time, but I just jumped into the roll and ran at it. That's good. Well, you're there at Oracle. HOW LONG WE AD Oracle? And I guess you know, one of the things that's always interesting is they give you that double promotion and then you know fast for Ward and time and you're at places like sale through and dynamic yield, which are more classically what we would, I guess, consider startup companies. Obviously Oracle is not a startup. So how did you think about making the transition from, you know, big company to start up? And now now you're back into big company again? Walk US through. You know there's a lot of folks out there. There are that are working for early stage companies and thinking about how to manage their careers. How do you view the differences between a big company and a startup and one of the advantage is disadvantages of each and how do you make your way through all of those decisions?...

So is that Oracle for five years in total? The answer your first question and and I'll just answer your other questions kind of in one complete answer. So any business that I've led I've always kind of just looked at it as an entity. Right, whether the entity is part of a large corporation or whether it's part of startup, it has its own unique needs and requirements and what I try to do is basically do a bit of planning up front to make sure that that organization is targeted at the right sort of prime suspects and the right segmentation for what is being sold. And that principle applies and large companies and applies and small company. So targeting is the first really key where you're going to focus your people and your resources and then, secondly, what what's the messaging you're going to market with? Often in large companies the messaging exists and you just have to customize it a bit for your particular target, vertical or Geo or what, or audience level from a title perspective. And in startups you have to create that messaging or work with marketing people to optimize it. And then it's the question of how hiring great people. Same need in both situations, large or small. You have to have great people on your team, training them, supporting them, being in the game with customers, helping move sales opportunities forward and in an all those sort of back office approvals, contracts, all of that. So you would find actually much more commonality between large companies and startups. That I think is obvious. There are pros and cons, to answer your last question, of working in each type of environment and I can go into that more detail if you want, but I see a lot of commonality there. Tell us the pros and cons because again, lots of folks are there in the world are coming out of school and their SDRs at early stage companies and then they move up to a kint executives and they never get the kind of true classical enterprise sales training that you get but from your perspective, what do you think the pros and cons are? Sure well, you just mentioned one of them. Training. Larger organizations tend to have more resources to train younger people and I've met many really talented, highly intelligent young people that when they receive professional training they really excel and you can tell the people who have been trained versus not trained. So training is definitely one key resource and another is actually sort of breath of opportunities. When you work in a large company it's not actually much easier to get meetings for, you know, for your teams to get in front of customers. We're all competing for their time and if you're not good at that, you're still going to struggle, whether in a large company or small company. But having a brand is very helpful, there's no question about it, when it comes to sort of the vendor viability, vendor credibility, sale. People really make the difference there, and so in a start up you have to have people on the leadership team as well. It's on your staff who can establish personal credibility, professional credibility, instead of just that kind of large brand credibility. So those are some of the differences I've experienced it's political and both environments. So I think there's a bit of a misperception that, you know, there's less politics and startups and I've experienced heavy politics and startups and also in large companies. I think that collaboration and teamwork also exists in both environments. I've seen it fairly equal. So I think there's just a lot of sort of, you know, more in common than there is a different about it. I would say one of the main difference too, with large companies is the indirect channel. So most large companies have established partners which can be very critical to the success of the sales organization or any organization that's looking to move forward in terms of satisfying customers, professional services, sales, Presales, etc. So that's definitely an advantage, a distinct advantage in a large companies having a formal alliance program partners. Usually there are quite a few people that...

...actually their full time job is to manage that business in help sales link with partners and work opportunities etc. And that typically doesn't exist or it's nascent in a startup. But each job I've found fulfilling. I found it very fulfilling in startups collaborating and breaking new ground for the first time and, you know, helping founders execute on the milestones with the board, and then in large companies as well, just helping my organization and working and teeming with other organizations to win, it a strategic opportunities or accounts or compete and win. So I've enjoyed both. That makes sense. You mentioned something that's interesting to me you. So there's politics and both types of organizations. I think there's a lot of different definitions out there for what politics means. What does it mean to you? To me, politics are basically biases and opinions and interaction between people that are a distraction to the primary objective of the function or the people. So it's sort of like the human like. We're all human, we're all imperfect and certain ways. So it's those imperfections that come out where people form alliances or biases or whatever that basically sometimes work against the common good. That's how I would describe it. To your point, I think the easiest definition I use tends to be when decisions are made on non objective basis and that, because it's relative to preference, is not you know, I like this person more than that person now, because we have a metric that we're measuring. Yes, I think that's well put. The thinking about starters, because you just you've, you know, you've worked at a lot of them and you've seen some succeed and some fail. What are some of the biggest lessons you've learned from your time at startups, in high growth companies? All, there's so many I could talk for days. Mean it's really this a ton of them. I can talk about what I've seen contribute to success versus failure. If that you think's relevant, I think that would be very relevant. Yeah, it seems like when startups get going there, you know they're heavily focused on the core product or in a products right, and that's natural because obviously come up with an idea to innovate in society or in business, and someone has a brilliant idea and then gets funding, and that person often is a product oriented person or an engineer or someone like that. But there's this whole other commercial aspect that is heavily dependent on a strategy, and the strategy is executed through something called a market map, and the market map starts with the voice of the customer and then goes through about five or six aspects all the way through to marketing and sales execution, and anyone listener can google it and see a classic market map. But I've consulted for dozens of startups and have worked in several and every single case the market map was not there. Some of the concepts within the market map were there, but overall the market map was not in existence. And the market map actually keeps you honest. It's like a nautical chart. If you're sailing somewhere, you chart it out in advance and that's the course you're taking. Of course you make adjustments for a weather but for the most part that's the course and without that it's very easy to stray off course. And that doesn't mean you don't create a new course sometimes if you discover something along the way that's, you know, more exciting and bigger. Like. I totally get that. But even when you do that, you should still go back and create a new market map or revise your market map. So trying to get somewhere without a market map in the whole front office aspect is really problematic. So I think the companies that have been really successful or the ones who have that one. Are the most important elements of the market map when you see companies go off track? Is it that they haven't defined their ideal customer profile? Is that the messaging is off? I'm sure all of there's a million factors that contribute, but are there one or two that are the most critical to get right? I think it's really the starting point, with the voice of the customer and because...

...you think about it this way and less what you offer addresses acute pain, for someone in power it's not going to succeed. So someone in power and a business has to be able to feel that well, if I spend time and money on, you know, evaluating this and buying this solution, it's going to resolved this acute pain or helped me growing in some way. I think in many cases is people fall in love with their inventions and that's missing, and then sort of mapping out the whole solution design to that and with like looking at competitive vulnerabilities, for example, so you create differentiation into the solution design, etc. I think that's really key. So it's in other words, the sales and marketing execution or critical. However, they're only going to be as effective as the front end of your strategy and the front end of the strategies product development, right. Is that what you're saying? Well, it's Voice of the customer into product development, the solution design, right, and then going from there is absolutely key, because if you misread that or make false assumptions, like I had a client ones who basically market tested their product in the SMB space and then went up market immediately to enterprise and their assumptions were off because enterprise had different requirements than SMB. So what they thought was really innovative and novel turned out to be pass a to their enterprise buyers. Yeah, that's a classic mistake, which is if they were going to build an enterprise product in the first place, they should have started there. That's right. So have to be careful and it's not easy, right, because we're all proud of our work, right, and if developers, engineers, product people spent all this time and effort and money getting this amazing technology together, it's easy to fall in love with it and it's, you know, their baby, and the baby is always beautiful. But it's really important, is early as possible to get that external validation and, you know, make sure that you're on course that way. Yeah, I agree. You mentioned something else that's super interesting that you and I've talked about individually, which is you didn't say it this way, but it but at the point it's clear, which is it's not just enough to solve somebody's acute pain. You need to solve somebody's acute pain that has power in the organization. I think there's you know, there's a lot of folks out there in the world that have, you know, mastered the simple sale, which is fine, a champion get the deal done, maybe because it's a mid market deal. Yes, but the complex sale is very, very different and you're a master of it. Walk the audience through some of the key elements, the power components and how to think about building preference for a solution at the enterprise level, because you've done it so well and so repeatedly. Sure it's actually more straightforward than one way to think. It takes a lot of just basic empathy and common sense, but a little bit of planning, not a lot, so a little. You know, the first guiding principle, and it's a mantra that I created years ago, which is the only plan that matters is powers plan. So you can ask anyone in my organizations and over the years and they'll laugh and chuckle and tell you they've heard that a million times, but it's really true. The only plan that really matters when you're selling to a enterprise is powers plan. Everyone else's plan doesn't matter because power is the ultimate decision maker and improver of your opportunity right of your contract. So you have to make sure that you are in a situation where you can gain access to power and you can verify all the different conversations that your team has had with other people with power. Getting back to the point, with complex sales you can boil it all down to a very straightforward approach. So in my organization, for example, first thing I ask them to do is make sure they haven't qualified opportunity. We use medical to do that and that that's a really good filter. So you have that filter really quickly, Dave, only...

...because you know got a lot of newbies out there. What is medical? Tell us what medical stand for. So it's an old qualification, you know, acronym, but it basically it's metrics that your solution satisfies the metrics that a buyer and their power wants to achieve. It's the economic buyer. So you've gained access to the economic buyer, which in this case I'm using. You know, this lie term power. It's the decision process that you've identified, the decision criteria, it's the identification of pain, is having a champion and then a linkage to the business. And there's a few filters out there. I you know, back in the day at the very assigned we use value prompters, pain fit, value power and plan, which is similar. I think medical takes it a little bit further. So you just want to make sure your opportunities are qualified for that and that's an ongoing process. It doesn't happen in one conversation. It takes, you know, multiple conversations and meetings and to filter based on that. But that's only part of it. That still doesn't really get to complex sale selling or power based selling. After that then you have to the next step, which is pretty straight coward is. You have to map out the stakeholders. So the stakeholders are, who are the individuals that are involved? What's their job title, and then really take a objective look at their preference for your solution, the power level they have in the decisionmaking process for this project right, any particular agendas, business agendas that you've been able to identify, and then the pain type that these different individuals are experiencing, for examples, at operational pain, is it financial pain? Is a strategic pain, etc. Imagine a matrix that you map out with these individuals now, in the very beginning, there's many answers. You don't know, so you just leave a blank column, blind spots, whatever you want to do there, but just note that those blind spots need to be filled in at some point because if you're going to go about the process of influencing the preference across this power base, you have to know who the targets are right like who are you going to actually reach out to and figure out where they are? And then the third step is the plan, the actual complex sales plan, you know, the power based selling plan. I will hold in where you're now taking actions as a team, not an individual, but your leveraging your manager, your leveraging your vp of sales, your leveraging your head of consulting, your and leveraging your CTEO. You're leveraging your founder, a CEO, maybe your coos a larger company, whatever the power base is your se's for sure, and you're basically the account executives acting as a quarterback, so to say, mapping that team into the power base and brokering meetings with, you know, sea level people, with C level people and VP's with VPS, just to gain a perspective on where those customers are coming from, like what their desires are for this particular project, and then to influence them toward what you're selling or, if they're like too far gone and they're married to the competition for some reason, and neutralize them just, you know, agree to disagree and move on. So there's this whole selling process of working through that. Now we don't do that on, and I don't recommend anyone does that on every single sales opportunity. If you have a simple opportunity where really there's two individuals involved, a buyer and their manager, and it's a lower average order value, you don't need to go through all that. But if you have a strategic opportunity where you're cracking an account for the first time, open or it's a larger, you know, order value, then it's absolutely worth taking the time to map out a strategy and a plan and team sell into that environment. In this is like a tried and true approach. We used it recently in my organization and basically generated an incremental half a million dollars and in license support and services off of a customer who wasn't really looking to do much more with us because the account executive got...

...to power, brought me in, brought the head of consulting in, brought as manager in, had the right Essy's involved in, identified a strategic opportunity and then work the power base accordingly and was able to close an incremental half a million dollars, which we normally would not have had it had he not followed this approach. One of the non obvious dimensions of this process, or at least it's not obvious to me, is how you think about the different types of pain and how there's certain types of pain that actually aren't interesting enough for for a solution to be implemented, meaning a sale to be made. Walk US through that framework. Yeah, that's an astute observation on your part. So, unfortunately, much of our sales training is feature based. You sort of newer reps memorize all the features and capabilities and then it's like an actor who's done a great job of rehearsing. They get on stage and they kind of just, you know, tell what they know. But unfortunately many of the power players that you call on they actually don't have operational pain that's linked to those features. So in technology many of the features link to operational solving operational pain. But if you move up stream, there could be cultural pain, there can be financial pain and then strategic pain. It's easy to define those types of pain because there it's just business, right. So you know, strategic pain is, Hey, I'm losing market share to my head my chief competitor because my organization moves slower. So if your solution helps them gets information faster and get better insight into the decisions they're making to compete, maybe deliver product faster, you know, innovate in rd quicker, increase their pipeline in Rd, than you're actually going to affect strategic pain right. And sometimes the pain's financial, which is the CFO or controllers pain. Hey, I'm bleeding here, I'm losing a significant amount of money. In your solution happens to reduce cost internally significantly. And then cultural pain is hey, I have you know, in some cases you might have a situation where there's a lot of bias in my company and there's a lot of harassment issues and I need to really deal with that, and you might be selling something that helps educate people on dealing with unconscious bias and educates them to become upstanders when it comes to diversity and inclusion. Right that. That's an example of addressing cultural pain. And, of course, operational pain is what it is. It's it's like, Hey, you know, it takes us too long to execute x and Y, or this product is not getting the job done for me. Their gaps here and there, you know, what have you. There's million examples of that. Yeah, and then part of your point, if I'm not mistaken, as operational pain is typically experienced by people that may be champions but don't actually have a lot of decisionmaking authority within the organization. That's absolutely right on, and that's why many opportunities die on the vine, because the sales team is done an amazing job of linking with operational pain, but there's a gap at the senior level with power because they haven't been able to translate how that solving that operational pain actually will address financial or strategic pain for the CFO or for the CEO or chief risk officer or whoever. The job is basically to realize you have a mixed audience who have different types of pain and you need to translate your solution to each audience type so that you're communicating to each audience in their own language the benefits of how you address each of those different pain types. That's when you have a hundred percent alignment and in can't lose. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. That's really, really helpful. So you know, you've been doing this a little while, not too long. You're not that old. You're pretty young. You're young the heart. Thanks. Check is in the mail. Same thanks. Oh Dude, go on, you're dancing with a drink in your hand. So...

...what advice? You know you're reflecting back on last twenty years. Obviously you have a point of view on things that have helped you and things that have not helped you. What advice would you give to the folks that are starting off in their careers? Sure, I've been listening to Hamilton a lot, like recently, the soundtrack, and when Burg gives Hamilton Advice, which is talk less, listen more and I think that's very valid for folks who are coming up right and I've was guilty of it back in the day and sometimes I'm still guilty of it. But I think the opportunity to listen and learn from customers and board members and investors and management and colleagues is just, you know, such a valuable asset to us that I think that's an opportunity that really we don't want to waste, you know, just being able to gain the perspective of others and observe that before we stress our points of view. And I think also, just like I mentioned it before, professional training and experience. I'm so enthused by the younger members of my organization and also that I meet in the industry, and one of them asked me recently what would you recommend I do, and I said, well, first of all, you're doing incredibly well already. This person I has closed around as a founder, probably he's probably in his late to s early S, and closed around for a hundred nineteen million dollars recently. That's a very large rounk. Yeah, you're doing tremendous already. The only thing I can think of is really invest in professional training in any gap areas that you have an experience like, for example, negotiate contract negotiation or value based selling or effective presentations or whatever. It is right. Just invest in the professional training because it's worth it. It will pay off in your career. And then, secondly, they put yourself in situations where you can have as many experiences as possible. I think that is really key to growing. I couldn't imagine what my life would be like now if I didn't have the opportunity to have all the different types of experiences I've had to date. It's just been invaluable to me. So raw talent and high intelligence are amazing assets, but they're not substitutes for professional training and real world experience. So I always encourage folks to do that. That is a point well made. I've got some fairly tactical questions because again, I think there's a lot of folks out there that are run in, you know, fifteen, maybe a fiftyzero dollar deals and they always aspire to the enterprise. But you know, it's rare that we get somebody with your experience that we can just ask the questions to. So, organizational design, we don't need to know how many people are in your org, but you know, what are some ratios, like? What are the roles that you have that you go to market with that help you execute your plan? So let me answer that from a start up perspective, because I think that would be more relevant. When I'm hired as a startup CRRO. I need to establish a Leegen function, I need to establish some type of field marketing, because I firmly believe events are one of the most critical, most effective ways to actually engage with the right audience. I think there was a statistic recently from Gong Dot Ioh used to be five to seven attempts to engage with a prospect and now it's up to eight to thirteen attempts. To think about that for a second. Eight to thirteen attempts per SDR per ae to get a suspect to engage. That's a tremendous amount of effort. I think if we're able to get really hyper targeted when it comes to smaller events that you know like the I'm a big fan of for a dinners and those types of events, and, you know, Boutique Conferences, I think that that that goes a long way. Not that will stop the you know SDR function by any means, but it's just, you know, another way to do it. So there has to be that. In addition to legion. There has to...

...be a good field of marketing effort. You know, when you're bootstrapping a company, then of course, depending on the technology you're selling, you may need se's. So certainly you need you need reps right and depending on what you're selling, you could need se's sales engineers, you know, technical engineers who can interact with customers, who have a sales attributes. Depending on how technical your solution is, that will determine the ratio. So I've gotten away with like one, see two for a e's in less technical sales and then in more technical sales one to one ratio se to Rep. what's your STRD AE ratio? So usually I think one ae to to SDRs or two, three SDRs is really a good range. I've stretched it to for and that has caused a lot of stress and I wouldn't recommend that. And again it depends on them, the nature of Your Business and how much money you can you can invest, and then sales operations once you get going. You know, when you're we're starting to roll, then you need a good sales operations person. I think in the beginning you could outsource that. There are a lot of quality subcontractors around who can help you with your here crm capability. But you got to get going right away. Some companies make the mistake of not paying attention to it till like two or three years in and then it's just just like crazy Gordian not that you have to try to cut through and figure out. It just like really causes a lot of pain. So you're better off starting and having a professional helping you there in the part time. So those are really the core functions. In some models you don't need professional services, you just need like really great customer success, and in other models you need customers success and you need professional services consultants to go on site and implement. So those are two other critical, you know sort of front office functions that you need. And then when you get going in larger than you look at renewals, and so the way I've always approached that as I've had strategic renewals handled by field a ease and I've had kind of, you know basic renewals handled by renewals manager and and then at adding a team as time goes on. So those are I don't think I'm leading out any functions. Some former team members might yellop me if I do, but I think I covered them all. That would imply that they're all listening, which would be great given all of your experience. Some really quick sort of specific questions. What percentable pipeline do you think in ae should generate on their own at the enterprise as level? So you know you've mentioned to me before. If I'm not mistaken, your version of enterprise we're looking at a quote of maybe two point four million, if I'm not mistaken correct. One percent of their pipeline should come from them doing out reach on their own versus their SDRs or marketing. How do you think about pipeline contribution? As much as we can get from marketing or, you know, SDRs, the better off we're going to be. But it's often just not the case. So I mean realistically, what I've seen is anywhere from twenty five to thirty three percent coming from those functions in the balance of the burden being on the account exacts. There's just no in large enterprise be to be there's just no substitute for that type of account executive that can actually call on power, call on midlevel managers, call on, you know, evaluators, and find projects and find opportunities and get introductions from partners or other colleagues or people that they've known before. It just doesn't seem like there's a substitute for that. Obviously, as a sales leader I would love their contribution burden to pipeline to be as low as possible so that they're just focused on qualifying and and managing opportunities and winning them. But it's really just hasn't been the case that I've seen in startups and large companies. You know, I think back at way back in the day when I was at Oracle and things have changed. I've been out of there a long time, but the primary burden was on the field to generate pipeline and and I think it's pretty common across the large companies today. That makes a lot of sense. Last question before we sort of get into some final parting words...

...of wisdom. But if you're thinking about your text act, we're always comparing notes. So you know we don't want to be negative and any way want to celebrate the great companies that are partners of yours. So what are the companies that are in your text act? What are some tools that you really can't live without? Sure in my text ACC I have slack, outreach, sales forcecom exactly, greenhouse, linkedin. It's a tough question on what I couldn't live without. Really appreciate all those technologies and you know, in other ones I'm considering right now, I would say honestly, probably linkedin. If I think about power based selling, you know, complex sales, and the amount of intelligence we gain from Linkedin, that seems like a critical asset that we couldn't we couldn't live without. Obviously we're, you know, heavy users of all the other office automation, email, texting, etcetera, but the I think of that account intelligence and, you know, persona intelligence that we get about suspects on Linkedin, company news, the ability to connect with people. That just seems like a killer APP for us right now. Or good I like linked into on their often in the dating my legion of followers with annoying statements. I'm one of them. Yeah, well, thank you buddy. It's okay, I enjoy it. Throw me alike every once in a while last question. You know, a content that you consume that you know makes you better, or books you're reading or podcast you're listening to or methodologies? What are some if we want to keep following the bread come trail and, you know, get as good as Dave Govan or get some new ideas plant us in some directions? Yeah, I read all the time. I tried it. Like I subscribe to the feeds that are coming across social media for different types of businesses and sectors you're in. So I would say that the first rule of thumb if you're in a particular market, obviously you know brainer you should follow people who are writing in that space and and receiving the latest goings on about that space. I'll also do listen to Bloomberg quite a bit as well when I'm driving around, and I think that gives you a healthy kind of global view and domestic view of what's going on in the greater economy. So when you are calling on sea level VP level people, you're aware of the general trends and you know happenings in the virus industries that are out there. So I find that that that's kind of a really good media source for variety of information on from a Bloomberg perspective, Bloomberg Radio Perspective. For personal pleasure. I actually try to avoid technology just to give some balance in my life. So I don't really read a lot about tech. I'll read occasionally some primer books, but most of my reading is really about his three and I really enjoy there's an author, Ronchreau, writes biographies. I'm reading a book now on Ulysses s grant, which is fascinating but it is great and I heard the new grant biography is amazing. He's one of my favorite people. Yeah, it is awesome, awesome listen. Dave, thank you so much for contributing to the PODCAST. I think the lessons that you've imparted around the complex sales process and how to really deliver an enterprise sales methodology that works are incredibly valuable for the listeners. So thank you so much for participating and I'm sure I will see you very, very soon at future gatherings of the New York revenue collective. Thanks Sam. It's been awesome spending some time with you. I think this is great and really enjoy these podcasts, so I encourage everyone to listen to them. They're very informative. So thanks again for your time and have a great rest of your day. I will one last thing, Dave. If people want to get in touch with you, are they allowed to a is that okay? And if so, maybe because you're hiring or maybe because they're seeking mentorship or for any reason. What's the best way to do it? What's your preference? Sure, few choices. Can Friend me on Linkedin. It's Day of Govin, and just mentioned the podcast and I'll be happy to accept can reach out to me via Gmail,...

DJ Govin, Geo va n at gmailcom. So those are two choices. Awesome. Thank you so much. I'll talk to you soon. Sounds Great. Thanks. Take care. Hey, folks at Sam's Corner, I meant it when I said that Dave Govan is a big and fluence on me and a big mentor, and a lot of the processes that we've designed here at behaviors have been strongly influenced by date. So I think he said something and I reiterated it in the conversation, but I want to underscore it. We talk a lot about pain, but there's different types of pain. An operational pain tends to sit within and below the power line, and so what I mean is that the people that experience sort of inefficiencies in their daily workflow, that is not always important enough for the CEO or a sea level executive at an organization to sign off on. And you really need to figure out what is the pain that the power has that the solution can solve. And, as day've mentioned in the PODCAST, the the only plan that matters is powers plant, which means that many, many times in an enterprise sale a deal can get killed because you've got a champion below the power line. It's enamored of the solution or the product, but that enamerization, if that's a word, doesn't appeal or doesn't speak to the goals of the C suite, and those are the goals that are most important for your solution to impact, because that those are the people that have the money to sign the check to pay you for what you're trying to do. So think about moving above the power line and speaking to pain that resonates with the C suite in the organization if you're working on an enterprise sale. Thanks so much for listening. To check out the show notes, see upcoming guests and play more episodes. From our incredible line of the sales leaders. Visit Sales Hackerd a calm podcast. You can find us on itunes or Google play, and if you enjoyed this episode, please do share with your peers on Linkedin, twitter or elsewhere. We always love it when we see people sharing content and telling their friends. We've been growing every month, so we're super excited about it. Thank you and finally, special thanks again to this month sponsors at outreach. See more at outreach dot ioh forward, sales haacker. Finally, finally, if you want to get in touch with me, find me on twitter at Sam f Jacobs, which, unfortunately for you, may be overburdened with political and Washington capitals related tweets. But if you want professional correspondence, find me on Linkedin at linkedincom in slash Sam f Jacobs. I'll see you next time.

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