The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

18. Setting Up the Right Sales Onboarding Plan w/ Roderick Jefferson

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This week on the Sales Hacker podcast, we feature Roderick Jefferson, a leader in the sales enablement space to talk about sales enablement and onboarding new sales reps. Tune in!

One, two, one, three, three flo welcome to the salesacker podcast. Folks, this week on the saleshacker podcast we're excited that we've got not one but two amazing sponsors.So this episode is episode eighteen and we're going to be interviewing Roderick Jefferson.It was a great interview and I'm excited to share it with you guys.But first let me tell you about our sponsors. So the first is aircall. I've talked about them before. Their phone system designed for the modernsales team. They seamlessly integrate into your crm, eliminating data entry for yourreps and providing you with greater visibility into your team's performance through advance reporting.And when it's time to scale, you can add new lines in minutes anduse incall coaching to reduce ramptime for your new reps. so visit air calldot io forward sales hacker to see why uber done and Bradstreet, pipe driveand thousands of others trust are call for the most critical sales conversations. Ican also tell you from my conversations with the team over there that they arescaling very, very quickly and really just doing an incredible job. Our secondsponsor is a company guys probably know, outreach. outreached io the leading salesengagement platform. They triple the productivity of sales teams and outreach empowers them todrive predictable and measurable revenue growth by prioritizing the right activities and scaling customer engagementswith intelligent automation. Outreach makes customer facing teams more effective and approves visibility intowhat really drives results. So hop off or too outreach that IO forwards salesacerto see a thousands of customers, including cloud, are glass door, Pandoraand Zilo, rely on outreach to deliver higher revenue for sales rap. Finally, want to give us some shoutouts to some of the folks that are listeningout there. As I mentioned, the PODCAST has been growing. Every week'sbeen bigger than the last, so that's been exciting and thank you so muchfor everybody that's listening and sending me your comments and send me your questions.A couple people that I want to specifically thank right now. Grandma Gallagher fromBlu cat is hoping for a conversation and episode about negotiation and pricing, whichwe will happily do. John Austin, who's the CEO of Taligent. Hementioned to me that I remind him of Michael Barbarrow from the daily at theNew York time, so obviously that's amazing. Thank you. John took Faun,who's a sales rep sign post to love the sign post the company andhe's starting his own podcast, so be on the lookout for that. ArmorDoyle, WHO's an account executive at sales force, who love the Dan Pinkepisode. Thank you, Narmer, Bruce Bignell from pidda metrics, who listensdoubt over in London, and a bunch of other great folks, Logan Lyles, Brian Smith Jr from higher velocity, who's post to the launch pad,and Joscelyn Donlin from conformist. So that's a mouthful, but it's a lotof folks. And again, if you're out there and you're listening and youhave a question, you have some feedback, you want to hear a different format, please let me know. We listen to our fans here and welistened listeners and I want to get better. So I want to make sure thatwe're responsive, but without further ado. Thanks for bearing with us. Let'slisten to episode at eighteen with Roderick Jefferson. Okay, everybody, welcometo the sales hacker podcast. We're really excited about our show today. Myguest today is Roger Jefferson and he's the CEO of Roger Jefferson and associates.We take it that is his own consulting firm. He's an acknowledged thought leaderin the sales enablement space and he's got twenty years of leadership experience building enablementorganizations across the enterprise and SMB universe. He's won a bunch of awards,including the two thousand and fifteen sales on boarding program of the year by seriousdecisions. He's one of the founding members of the sales enablement society and he'sa member of several advisory boards, including Capella University and celeration. So,Roderick, welcome has and thanks a lot. appreciated. Thanks for having me on. So you know, what we like to do, just to sortof like get things started, is to understand a little bit more about youand get a little bit of what we call your baseball card. So let'sstart off. Tell us what is Roger Jefferson and associates. So we area consulting firm focused on small medium sized business in that kind of tend tofive hundred million dollar range and what we focus on is really helping to driveconsistency, repeatable and scale will practices that...

...lead to increase revity. So focusedon speed to revenue on the front side on the sales consulting piece. Alsowe have a focus on leadership and executive coaching and finally, the third armof the chair, if you will, is focused on keynote speaking. Okay, so you guys are doing a lot of different things. And then tento five hundred million as a very wide range. So first of all,long have you've been doing this on your own? So we are in yourone. Prior to that, for those twenty years I was in corporate ina number of different companies and got to a point where it felt like itwas really time to step out and hang that shingle and move towards the piecesof enablement that I absolutely loved and put some of the corporate things on theshelf for a while. Congratulations. I've done the same thing in the pastand it's always fun to build your own business so twenty years. A lotof folks in the audience that are coin executives, that are sales managers,that are always thinking about their career and managing their career in the right way. So what's your background? Where you from and where'd you grow up?And how did we get from there to hear? Sure, originally from Texas, Louisiana area. Grew up in the south, so very different from SanFrancisco Bay area where I lived. Ay after school, came out this wayand started working in sales. So I am first and foremost of sales guy. CARE to bag for five years sales leadership as well, and got toa point where had done really well. went to Presidents Club a couple oftimes. Well, company was this atnt Oh, okay, cool, andonce presidents club and realize that I really love the process of selling, andso from there I moved into it. That time a sells training will andwas able to take some of the processes and tools that I had come upwith, which were very infantile back then, and replicated in scale and from theircreated my own small niche in the training space and from there moved andsince then in my career I have either run or grass rooted. Self enablementat sea, will systems, network, appliance, business objects, HP,Ebay, sells force, Oracle and Marquetto most recently wow. So all really, really big companies and what you were doing there was building enablement process.Sales training is a right. Actually what I was doing with building the team, because it I love when people say, Oh, those are great large logos. When I came to see what we were two hundred people, sovery small organization and that's why I decided to work in that SMB space.That I think the DOTS will start to connect a bit. When I wentto self force, I came in through an acquisition of a small, littletiny company called Jigsaw. That became Datacom and then remember Jack Yeah, yeah, and we're finally integrated into sells force. But I came into Oracle, Icame in through the Oracle Marketing Cloud. I was a team of me andso. And when I came into Marquetto, similarly, I came inand built the organization, helped as a part of the leadership team, tokind of craft messaging, positioning, etc. And it just blossom from there.So is it accurate to say that sort of like sales enablement. It'sreally like the main thing that you're focused on right now. Absolutely, I'dsay that's my priory focus. So we were just had we were at adinner of the New York revenue collective couple nights ago and we were talking aboutwhat is the definition of sales enablement? So I'm curious on what your definitionis, because I think there's folks out there that sort of lump it intooperations. Sometimes people are talking about assembling the sales technology stack. How doyou define it? It's interesting sin cells enablement become a very, very sexyterm all of a sudden and a lot of organizations have grabbed onto it.Your right. It could be sales ops in some cases, it could beproduct marketing in other cases. Now my definition, and I'll say that becauseif you ask ten people you're going to get twelve definitions, and that's actuallywhy we started the cells enablement society was to get a clear definition and acharter for cells enablement. And so my definition is really helping getting seals teamsinto the right conversations the right way, with the right tools, and wehelp them to break the complexity of cells enablement into practical ideas through scalable,reputable processes that ultimately lead to increased remedy.

And that's the bottom line. IsWhat are we helping to do to move the needle from the onboarding allthe way through the tools and then stepping into the continuing education piece? Socells enablement is an ongoing occurrence, not a single e bit. What ifyou're going into an organization and your and they just purchased grodect Jefferson and associatesand there's a really wide range of possible activities that you can develop to implementsales enablement, where do you start? What are sort of like the toptwo or three functions or areas of focus that you drill in on to helpaccelerate that revenue generation process? Well, there are four components and the firstis to do a overall needs analysis and audit, and that is across themultiple lines of business. That's from the executive team down at it's also fromthe sellers, the individual contributors up, because that gives me a well roundedpicture. Then we add in the small sprinkles of let me talk to afew of your customers and we talked to some of your top sellers, someof your more difficult or struggling sellers. Let me talk to people in thealliances group because I want to get a well rounded pictures. So that's thefirst part and then from there the analysis phase is complete. I can nowmove forward and it will point me into a number of directions, and thosedirections are generally one building out an onboarding program because most of the companies Ideal with there in hypergrowth phase. So when I say on boarding, we'retalking about a zero to x x program and I say xx because for yourSDR btrs, of which that's where my career started, so I got alot of love for bears and as DRS, and so for there it's a zeroto thirty day. But when you're talking about your as your sees,your CSM's and back into the house, it's generally a sixty day. Andyes, I said sixty, not a ninety day. I'd say one ofthe things that I'm proudest of is at Marquetto we are able to streamline timeto first close from eighty eight to fifty four days. Now, imagine theproductivity you get from that. How do you do that? That is thesecret sauce that comes with Robert Jefferson stations. It's really quite simple. It's listen, learn, then lead. And so the next component is where westart the we got the listen, got the learned. Now it's time tolead. And the next piece is either to help established and or up level. The exist thing cells enablement function inside of a company. And finally,the fourth component is putting in place a long term continuing education strategy, aswell as the tools, the templates, the KPIS and then the associates comingto play for the execution piece. So how does sales enablement differ from salesmanagement? How where do you draw the line in the distinction, because alot of what you just said feels like it's the job of the sales manageror VP of sales to do all of those things. There is a symbiotichand in glove relationship between the two. I believe that enablement is here tounderstand the needs of the business and translate those into tools, templates, programsprocesses, and then where the sales leadership comes in is they should own theadoption in the execution piece and then on the back end, enablement circles backagain to own the tracking, the metrics, the Kpis and the reporting piece.So we're working hand in hand. Okay, interesting. So is itaccurate to say that your process is that listen, learn lead? Is thataccurate or you know, what are some of the fundamental building blocks that you'reteaching the teams when you go in there? Well, you're absolutely right. Youknow, it is the listen, learn lead philosophy that we take andwhere we dig in his once we understand where the gaps are or in somecases, in a lot of cases, the silos are, then what wedo is help to collaborate, communist, Kate and then orchestrate. I lookat cellamt when as the hub that spokes out to every part of the organization. I call us the translators of dialects and languages, and what I meanis I don't expect product marketing and marketing...

...and ops to all speak each other'slanguages, but we have to be able to speak all those two translate itinto sales, speak out to our prospects and customers and then turnversely, tobring it back in house and get that feedback and be able to articulate itto each of those organizations in a language that makes sense to them. Arethere any specific tactics that you use to do that? And I guess theother question I have is do you report in your you know, for we'repart of a high growth, hyper growth business. Are you reporting up tothe chief Revenue Officer? Are you reporting to the CEO? How do youview sort of like the ORG chart to make sure that the hand in Glibrelationships most effective? It's actually all of the above, and that's the greatthing about being a consultant is you actually have a horizontal report rather than astandard use case of having the org chart. So generally I'm working with the CROsometime to see us, or the CSO, whichever they may have.We always want to make sure that the COE is included because of the OPSpieces that come into place from the execution. And then I want to also alignwith the CMO or whoever heads up marketing, because I look at itablement as the delivers of that content, where marketing is generally creating that contentunderstood. What's the true value of sales enablement in a growing or like howdo you characterize that value? How To you define it? I guess oneof the ways that you just defined it, as you mentioned shortening the sales cycleor the time to first close from in Marquetto pretty significantly. Sounded almostlike twenty to thirty percent. Is that how you define the sort of likethe true value of enablement? Well, I think that's a component of thevalue of an able and it's a strong opponent because we are hit in hand, focused on creating that's seving that creating, but really ushering in that acceleration torevenue. And the value, I think, comes from for pieces.One is the purpose of an ablement, as I outlined earlier, and thatis about driving revenue. Second is the people piece. What's the right structureand talent needed to be able to achieve that purpose? The next is theprograms that we bring into place. That can be on boarding, accreditation,certifications, qb yards, guided learning plans, those kind of things. And thelast piece is the orchestration inside of the given platform, and that iskind of what are the systems and tools that are required to really manage allof those other pieces we talked about. So it's really orchestration. So let'sdive into on boarding a little bit. I'm super interested in it because I'vealways I've never been very good at it. But when you think about like aperfectly designed on boarding process, and you mentioned for strs and your perspective, so you're saying you expect them to be fully ramped. Is that right? It within thirty days, and then you expect account executives to be fullyrammed within sixty days? Is that dependent on a specific market segment? Isthat depends on a specific deal size? And what are the elements that enable, to the point of enablement, one of those people that just joined acompany to be so productive and so short a time? So let me replacefully ramped with proficient to start with, because fully ramped is one of thosefunny terms that is really defined inside of a given house. So I preferto go with proficient, and that is they have the tools, the processes, the programs and the content to be able to go out and message andposition consistently and to be able to understand the pieces of the discovering qualification,as well as the messaging and positioning, the internal partner ecosystem that it takesto close this deal, and then the processes and tools that happen once thedeal closes. Now, when you say fully ramped. That depends by itsmarket. Second I could have fully ramped by BTR, obviously very different thanS ANDB MIT market. And then a longer piece when you look at theenterprise, because one is a volume velocity deal, one is an activity dealand another one is a relationship cell to the point of like a great onboardingprogram is there specific learning methodologies that you're using? Is it, you know, it's really a classroom orientation where you're constantly using sort of like an onlinepotter, like mind tickle or something like that, to do quizzes? Howdo you think about designing it so that...

...we can get to proficiency as quicklyas possible? Is it multi media? Is it all kinds of different things? Do you customize it to the client? How do you think about it?It is a multi media approach because there are different types of leaders.Yeah, you've got your visuals, your kind esthetic, etc. So we'vegot to make each that we hit all of those. But we do havea centralized communication strategy that we put in place for every one of our engagementsand it goes like this. You need to have some form of content managementsystem in place. You need to have a learning management system, in place. We want to also make sure that you have a centralized event calendar.You've got reinforcement activities that come into place, whether that be calls, webinars,etc. Here's another one. Want to make sure that you have apodcast library in place because, as we know, our sellers are getting youngerand younger and the millennials that's the way they learn, so we have togo to them. The next component is to make sure you've got leadership coachingand finally, some form of ongoing benchmarking, like a serious decisions or something atthat point. Okay, super interesting. So content management system, like thinkthat means a lot of different things to a lot of different people.Are there specific like walk me through specifically the first two? So the contentmanagement the learning management. How are those different? I'm just ignorant, Iguess. And how do they work together? No, no ignorance at all.Actually they work hand in hand. So the content management system is aboutgetting the right information to the right folks at the right time. So you'vegot your DEX DOTS and your white papers in those such that's it generally inthat location, right. Is that like burroom? Would that be an exampleof like a content management platform is a something of that sort. Then you'vegot the the learning platform or the LMS, like a learn, coore, binetickle, etc. Where anything that you are now tracking and report being onshould sit inside of your elms so that you have a single source and locationfor all of your ongoing educational records. That makes a lot of sense.I mean, I'm what's the adoption of those systems at this point? Well, that's when we come in and that's a first of all phenomenal question,because one of the strengths of coming in. Let's say you just purchase one ofthose learning platforms. Now you've got this, you've got all of thiscontent and you have some assymbilants of the other tools that I talked about.What do you do with them and how do you make sure that there isa orchestration between those and it flows cohesively with a handoff between them and itdoesn't feel like I'm in my cms, stop now I go to my learningmanagement system, stop, now I have to go and utilize this calendar.Stop. So what we do is help them put together a consistent and contiguousflow of all those different platforms and tools so that they all play and talktogether, interested seamless to the user. That's the key. Are you bringinga sales philosophy to the whole thing? Is it? Are you bringing inlike value based selling, like a Miller Heiman kind of framework, a challengersale mentality? Is there a specific underpinning philosophy that you try to introduce inthe context of deploying all these systems, or are you adapting your approach towhatever it is that you know the client is actually using at the time?How about both? We are very, very agile and adaptive to those andthe great thing of being in sales ablet for the last twenty five years isI have actually instituted just about every one of those that you've talked about,whether it be challenger all the way back to the old spin, and that'sprobably going to show my age, but everything in between. So there's anotherstanding there. We have a very senior team, but we also in househave, for those that don't have a sales methodology, we have our owncells of methodology we call agility selling, so that can be instituted alongside withthe others or in place of the others. Tell us about agility selling. Let'shere. It's more about solving of issues rather than really focused on somethinglike a challenger, which, quite honestly, I don't consider a sales methodology.I considered a sales approach, but there it's about curiosity, about continuallyand asking questions. The answer with a Julie Selling it's about problem solving.First question we have is what problems do...

...you have that are now causing youpain? Sounds similar to every other methodology, right the product. The difference iswe approach it in a reverse order. Instead of starting with that problem,we start with the buyer journey. Where does that problem that you havefit into the overall buyers journey? Rather than trying to have your sales process, your sales stages, fit into that buyer journey, let's start with thebuyer and figure out how then your sales stages fit into the overall buy anddrink. I would imagine that part of what you do is take whatever they'vegotten and sure that it's embedded into like a so absolutely, and then welook at the crm and make sure that's all tied together. Yeah, you'vebeen doing this. Like you said, you're sort of a pioneer in thein the sales enableming space. Thank you for pioneer instead of GRANDPA. What'schanged selling for twenty five years working at some of these, as you said, big logos, and some of the points at which you've joined these companiesis through acquisition, so you're at a smaller company line. Of course,Jigsaw was really well known back in the olden days. How do you viewthe sort of the approach to sales, what the buyers experiences with all ofus trying to pitch them things, and what do you think are the themesthat have evolved over the past twenty years, twenty five years? Well, therefore, a few things. First and foremost, I think that buyers are, because of tech fires, are far more savvy now and further along intheir buying cycle by the time they actually bring in the cells, rapper andeight. That's one. The second is I believe that the buyers now expectyou to speak their language instead of trying to have them conform to your languageor your messaging and position. The other piece that has changed significantly are thetools that are required. At one point we would sit down for half anhour and we'd watch a Webinar or we'd listen to an online piece. Notso anymore. Right now the world is about what I call knowledge bits.I can now pull together six five minute podcast where I can't get the typicalmillennium to sit down for half an hour. So the way that we deliver contenthas changed significantly. The modalities have changed, they've certainly improved, butthey've changed the way that we teach and, most importantly, I think we aregetting away from training and getting closer to enablement. And my philosophy isthat you train animals and you enable people to the point of a knowledge byright, we just got one. You train animals enable people in practice.What does that mean to you? So let me clarify that for the folksthat are out there professional trainers, because I was in that boat as welland I don't negate them at all and I certainly hope they don't take thatas a disrespectful statement. That's not the goal. What I mean is trainingis reactive, it's spot it's one time without a lot of Kpis or Royaround it. Here's what enablement has turned into now, or moving towards,should I say. It is a long term strategy that's woven into the fabricof the company. That starts at the interview process all the way through thelife cycle of a sales career. And it's also collaborative, and it's backto my statement earlier. It's about listening, learning then leading. But then youcome back with the the K Kepis and the Roi Behind it, andyou can now put hard line, let me say that again, hard lineROI figures can now be added to enablement activities. So what are your favoriteKpis to justify the Roi of Hiring Roger Jefferson and associates? Well, Ithink there are two sets of Kpis. First of all, the drive oureye. There's one that enablement influences, and those are things like accreditation orcertification, completion, attach rates, average deal size, collateral, use offrequency, pipeline created, number of closed deals, product mixed by segment.Obviously, quote attainment time, first time to revenue or speed to revenue,first close. There's win rate percentage, there's attach rates, then their crmcleanness. Then there's the pieces that we...

...own, and those are things likethe accreditation, passing rates, the course assessment, expectations, assessments, surveys, biannual needs analysis, quotes, an anecdotal feedback and then, of course, the tracking, the metrics and the reporting piece. If I'm I guessthe CRO and I want to bring you guys in and I'm trying to thinkabout how to invest in enablement the right way. And I know that weneed to design an on boarding program I know that we need to do reinforcement. I need to sort of segment out the investment that we're going to makein sales and implement technology broadly to find the way I'm gonna if I hadto pick two met numbers that would improve, would you say it's sort of likewin rate and deal size, or am I thinking about that the rightwell, no, you've nailed it. Is Speed to revenue and deal sizeincrease. Gott it so and to the point of you know, again likethe evolution of two thousand and twenty five years and the explosion of tools inthe space. So you mentioned. It sounds to me like sort of enablementheavily, you know, depend on thinking about like you want them to havea content management system. They need to have an Lms, something like alearned horror mind tickle or something else. What are the other key tools?I'm thinking about call coaching software. I'm thinking about like cadence and smart salesenablement software. When you think about a recommended text st AC as, you'redoing a needs assessment and analysis. We love it if you pick your favoritevendors, but I'm also happened to speaking generalities for fear of offending anybody,but absolutely beender neutral. Well, you know what, you've nailed most ofthem. I think the only thing that you left out is ensuring that there'ssome form of centralized event calendar. That way everyone is aware of it andsells leaders can plan for this as well, and you can also work with yourpeople or your HR group to make sure that you are timing your hiringcycles to the events that are coming up. Do you mean like marketing events?Do you mean, Hey, we're hosting a conference? And know whatI mean is hiring events. Thinking from a sales perspective, then you canhave specific hiring dates based upon if you know you have x number of hoursto complete the mandatory prework, that means you've got to bring in your cohortx number of weeks before so they are prepared to sell in x number ofweeks as well. That's interesting and any other tools. I mean there's somany new things that are emerging all the time. Any specific categories that youthink are particularly exciting? I think we've nailed it. Boat. I reallylike is the integration of the alams and the learning tools that have become asingle that are becoming a single platform, like a learned core, and theshow pad acquisition. That was a absolute game changer in the market place,because now what they've done is I can get you all of your content,I can get it to the right people at the right time all but wait, I can also add in the coaching modules and components and then, finally, I can put a wrapper around that and make that reports, dashboards,etc. For the metrics, the tracking and reporting. They are doing somethingover there that is not being done anywhere else and I dare say disruptive.They're not. Yeah, they are absolutely changing the game. I Apologize Fornot reading about that acquisition. But what is show pad? The words?So again, show pad is a ton of platform whereby they take all ofthat content from cms, cms like I would say, and then they distributeit via channels mobile to the right audience at the right time, right content. So let me give you an example. You're a BDR. You're only goingto receive certain information. Let's take a high level messaging positioning and startwith discovering qualification. You're only going to get that component that aligns to yourparticular role. Right. We're not giving you modules on once you close.How do you handle this in the crm and when you're in negotiation, youhave to do these pieces would legal. You're not doing that. So weget to the content that you need at that time along that journey. Andalso, let's say you change your corporate pitch. Right, this is somethingthat they can change the corporate push pitch...

...and push it out right away toall of the sellers inside of a channel, rather than going where's the new corporatepitch and where do I find it? No, push it out. I'mout in front of a customer. We got a new pitch. Ican set on the parking lot, look at it, go okay. That'swhat's different. And they also allow you to take content that's already created andthen move that around and personalize it for your given customer prospect. Wow,that sounds very, very pliable. Yeah, nominal tool to the point of likethe difference between training and enablement. Is enablement and ops the same thing? If I just hired Rob Dandorf, vp of global revenue opps, that'swhat he is for behaviors. Is that the same thing as a VP ofenablement is a different is enablement a function of operations? Is operations a functionof enablement? Just getting all the terminology clear in my head. What's yourpoint of view on that? Again, yes and no. Depends on thecompany. In my career I reported to opts. However, as the enablementpiece has grown over the last two thousand and twenty five years, it isa standalone organization that is handinhand and bfs, if you will, with cells ups. And here's why. Because we've got all of the processes, we'vegot all of the programs. They own the tools. So it's a naturalhandoff. Let's start from the very beginning. Marketing has the content, the messaging, positioning, etc. They hand off to us for our processes andour programs. We hand off to ops to make sure that those are scalableand repeatable inside of the company. Selected tools. Got It. You're outthere consulting. If there's founders listening to this and thinking about maybe their earlystage companies thinking about hiring their first batch of sales people and beginning to scaleup. What are the biggest mistakes that sort of early stage companies make whenit comes to revenue, and you know, what is your advice to them onhow they can avoid those mistakes, assuming that because they sold somewhere elseand they were successful, they would be successful inside of your organization? Wehave all focused for the longest on ideal customer profile. What I've been introducing, is I'm consulting is let's focus on the ideal employee profile now, andthat's where I believe sells. enablement should be a part of the interview processbecause, one we had come at it with a different set of lenses andsecondly, our BS meter is much higher and thirdly, we're looking at thepropensity for long term success inside of the programs that were helping the build.How do you evaluate that or assess that, because I that sounds like in aI've heard of many other people say that just because one person successful atXyz company doesn't mean they're going to be successful at the next, and ofcourse the inverse is true. But also that's even more challenging for a hiringmanager or sales manager to make the case for which is actually, this personsucked and their wholes role, but they're going to be great here. Sowhat's the framework for the interview process that helps you uncover the the actual alignment? The Way I've always explained it to sales leaders is when it comes tointerview, we can do it right or we can do it fast. Well, you don't get both. So which way do you want it? Andwhat I mean by that is we can do it fast, so we canget folks in because they look great on Linkedin. They come in with thebeautiful resume that says they've killed this, they went to President's Club here,etc. Now let's talk about right way. That is having folks from multiple linesof business, OPS, sales, maybe, legal and enablement all talkto that individual. Yeah, okay, got multiple people talking, but atthe same time what you get now is a well defined road map from differentangles with different priorities looking at that same person, and you get that checkedoff. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but far less often do you getsomeone that sucks. That's hard to do because every person is everybody's busy, and then the other part of it is you probably have to like asign each of those people specific. Do you do that thing where you knowyour job is to assess this criteria, it's job is to assess this greaterand here's the score card, things like...

...that. Absolutely, and again everybodyis busy. But let's go back to my definition earlier of enablement. Itis woven into the fabric of the company. So that means that we only wantto bring people in that they're going to make the entire company successful.And I'm not saying you should have sixteen interviews, don't get me wrong right, but it should definitely be be a well rounded approach. Most of thetime people go, all right, I want you to talk to The vdepending upon where you are in the food chain, of course you're going totalk to the VP of sales, you're going to talk to a sales leaderand then you're going to talk to one of your teammate. Okay, great, you just talk to three or four different people with the same mindset.How about I want you to talk to someone from sales leadership, someone froman ablement, someone from ops, now which you get as diversity of thoughtaround that person and yes, you have individual pieces that you're looking for andthe red flags may be very different in one category than they are another.Would you say you need consensus, that everybody has to vote, I orstart a score card and you're trying to clear a certain bar and the hiringmanager gets to make the final call. No, I think consensus creates toomuch complexity and I've never been a fan of hiring by committee. That's whereI think the score card comes in. If they score higher here and there, and ultimately these people all have a voice, the ultimate vote comes downto the hiring manager. We're really just giving you our input on what we'reseeing from our perspective, in our lenses. Yeah, all right, this hasbeen really, really helpful to people. Ever call you. Rod might allowedto do that or no, which you prefer, Rodrick? It's actuallyRJ. Make it real simple. That's even better. All right, RJ. A few more questions. So here's something that happens to me a loton linkedin. I get outreacher, I end up interviewing people, but startedoff in a different function, and I mean how many, so many differentvpiece of sales, because it's really hard to major in sales as many,many people will teach you, and so you know they measured in political scienceor they were going to be lawyers and they end up in a sales career. So I think there's a lot of people out there they don't know howto assess themselves to see if they would be a good fit for a salescareer. What do you think are the criteria? You know, if you'rea young person working in product or you're an investment banking and you want tomake the jump to startups, how do you self evaluate to figure out ifyou'd be good at sales? What are the qualities that you think are important? First of all, none of US major in sales. I was aradio and television broadcast Major. How I got here is still beyond me rightso I do a lot of speaking of different colleges and universities that I getthis question a lot, and so the answer I always give is you willfind six to eight jobs in your life. Your career will find you. Soif it doesn't find you right away, it's okay, but it will findyou avnsul. Now, if you want to go into sales, thething I always tell people is start doing the most nonthreatening activity on the planet. Ask someone for an informational interview. I'm not asking for your job,I'm not asking to help me get into company. I'm asking you to tellme about you, the one thing that everybody's going to talk about. Butgo in and make sure that you have a set plan of questions that aregoing to help you direct and navigate either left or right when you come outof this conversation. It's not just hey, so tell me about your career andwhat you did. It's I have specific questions about. Tell me whatyour job looks like. What do you love about your job? What doyou not like about your job? And I call it the candy bar piece, and that is what would you do if you were only paid in candybars in your job today? That's interesting. Do you have a point of viewon, you know, the extrovert versus introvert versus amberer? Obviously there'sall this research recently that actually introverts or pretty good at sales. You know, besides, Informational Inter views are they're sort of like ways of looking insideyourself to figure out if it's really going to be a good match for you. There are and it comes down to what segment? Again, if you'relooking to come in as a BEDR and an ser, you need to besomeone that has the propensity to learn and not afraid to say these three words. I don't know. You Walk in as a sponge, you will beincredibly successful as a Dr. now let's move up. You're walking into apotential role that is an SMB and its volume velocity. If you don't havea strong attention to detail, you can't...

...shake and move and churn quickly.That's not the role for you, because that's what you're going to be doing, is working with multiple companies, multiple clients, multiple personalities all at once, and you have to keep those in some kind of alignment and keep allof the plate spinning in the air. If you're coming in an enterprise role, whole completely different ball game. Generally a relationship cell and probably going tobe more mature later in your career. I don't know a lot of folksto come out of school and walk right into enterprise cells rules. For thatreason, we're expecting you to bring your tenure, your background, your knowledgeand, in the old term, your rolodecks or your network. These days, and that's just not established yet. Yeah, it's really interesting. Onelast question. We always like to sort of get influences and hear about otherpeople books that you're reading and things like that. But you know, anotherquestion that I get fairly often. You made this leap early in your career, it sounds like. I get questions from individual contributors. There's different flavorsof this question. One of them is, Hey, I'm being presented with themanagement opportunity, but I'm also being presented with this incredible kind of iceeindividual contributor opportunity and you know, how do I think about that? Thesecond might be I've been doing this thing for a little while at small company. I'm trying to figure out should I go to the big company and bemidlevel or should I, you know, go to the small company and bea VP of sales? But ultimately the foundational sort of question is how doyou figure out if you should make the leap to management, how emphatic youshould be about moving from an individual contributor role to a management role? What'syour advice to people that are sort of face with that dilemma? Or maybethey're not actually being presented with the choice, but they're saying you know what,I've been doing the individual kind of executive thing for long enough and I'mdrawing the line in the sand and I'm just going to make myself a managersomewhere, even if it's not it wherever I'm currently employed. Don't draw usa light as to not draw a line in the sand. Let me startthere. Enough, we all say by twenty four months, by twelve months, by eighteen months. Now it actually really comes down to what are yourcareer goals? What's going to hand your quality of life? Where do yousee yourself going and do you have the network to get there? Let's gowith the old adage of your net worth is determined by your network. Okay, we all know that's true, especially in sales. It's about who youknow. So I've always looked at it from the perspective of I've done myhomework, I've got the numbers that support it, I've got the right folksbehind me that are supporting me to move. And do I have a mentor ora sponsor that can help me get there? And let me explain thedifference with people to they'll know a mentor is someone that speaks about you.I can get your resume from the right person, I can move you upin line. A sponsor is someone that speaks for you and that is theperson that says they may not be ready yet, but I'm willing to putmy reputation on the line that I'm going to get them prepared to get thereone especially when you're moving to a leadership roll. If you don't have thatsponsor that will say that for you, you're not ready, that's interesting.All right, so find a sponsor. Ladies in Germs, by the mentorfirst, and because sponsors will find you. In your experience, do you reachout to someone, you say will you be my mentor, or doyou just develop a relationship and then it sort of happens? I've had peoplereach out and say will you be my mentor, and it feels like I'mfilling a you know, like a slot in like a Mi orksheet. Andthen other people I don't know whether I'm their mentor or not. I'm justhelping them throughout the course of their career because I'm friends with them and Ilike to help people. Do you have a point of view on that?Yeah, it's really weird to reach out to someone and saying what you needthe mentors, and thank you for confirming that. Had you your high thingof Hey, will, will you be my friend and you're like, I'lleven know exactly I think. So I'll make sure. If you may say, you can call me whatever you want. I've got a strong maybe for youon and when it comes to the mentor mental relationship, it is organicand it will grow into that. And for me, for the folks thatthat I am a mentor for, I ask them a series of questions.When someone says I want should be my mentor, I start with why me? And what do you really know about...

...me beyond what you've read in Linkedin, and that's not an arrogant statement. That is have you done your homework? And the biggest piece that I ask them is, in this relationship ofmentor Mente, how are we going to make this mutually equitable? I'm notasking you to buy things, I'm not asking you to do things, butI have to learn something from you the same way that I'm getting back toyou, and if you can't tell me what I can learn from you,I'm not the right person to be a mentor for you. Wow, that'stough. RJ. No, no, actually rather than tough. What Iwould say is it really makes you think about if this is the right personand the right personality type that's going to help you be successful to move tothat next level that you're aiming for. I dig it. It's cool.Thank you so much for your time. I've got a few last questions.This has been really, really helpful. If we're thinking about paying it forwardand we're thinking about people that you think the audience should know about, let'scelebrate some of the other folks out there who are some of your favorite VP'sof sales, founders, people that you've worked with. It I really shapedyour career over the past two thousand and twenty five years. Oh that's along list. And if I start saying things and I forget people, theywill text and tweet about me. Perhaps your overestimating the audience for the salesactor podcast. It's just me and my mom listening. Man, yeah,it's just US three right here it is. Come on, I know you guys. It Sell Sacre way too long. There are some great people out thereand there I put them in a different categories and if I leave anyoneout, please forgive me. Tweet me and I will make a huge apologyon linked that, I promise. There you go. There are the influencers, the sponsors in the mentors, right, and that's one category. And thatcategory I put people like Bill McDermott, I put Tom Mendoza, I putRob Acker, I put Kevin Ackroyd. Those are the kind of people thathave really helped to mold me and grew me to prepare to move upin bid to my career. Right. Then I put the quote unquote,thought leaders, which has been overused but I believe is a real term.And when I look at that category, I look at people like Gearhart Swantner, I look at Darryl Spryder, I look at him Oh hi and RossTamor Schmidt and I could go on, John Barrows, a number of peoplethat fit. I put Max into that that category as well. Sure,absolutely, Max and I had had some great conversations that made me walk awaygoing wow, that's very different than what I thought. Right, Max isa very different approach to life. That's what we love about it. Andand as of recently I put Guy Tano in there too, because when Istep back and I look at things and I ask questions and he's like yeah, but have you thought of it from this angle? And and you notice, as the seasoned veteran, most of the people that I just rattled offare younger than me. Again, I'm learning from them. Well, healways got to be learning. You have to have a beginner's mind, asthey say. Any books that we should be reading that you have been fluencedyou recently? Yeah, I read one recently that completely has changed my goto market strategy and my approach to business with my own consulting firm, andthat is by Donald Miller and it's building your brand strategy, building your brandstrategy. Okay, by Donald Miller. It's just a blue print to success. That's awesome. Okay, I will read that our j thank you somuch. Any parting words of wisdom? What's Your Life Motto? Anything thatyou can leave us with as we head off into the sunset? We're recordingthis on a Friday afternoon, so as I go go home see my wife, first of all I do humbly thank you and I appreciate the opportunity.Absou lot on to the show and I'll leave people with my life motto andthat is my Hashtag that you'll see on every single post that put up onall social media. Hope is not a strategy. There you go. Hopeis not a strategy. We got to do this thing. We got asolutely. We have to have an actual plan. There it is. I like it. RJ, thanks so much for participating in the salesacer podcast. Ifwe want to reach out to you,...

...to hire you or to email youor to get advice, first of all, a's. That okay. And thenbe what is your preferred assuming that it is, but okay, ifit's fine with us. If you say no, but assuming that it is, okay, what's your preferred communication channel? How should we find you if weif we would seek to? First of all, I'M A business guy. Absolutely it's okay. He reach that leads. Okay, leads are good. These are very good. We like leads. Everyone has their way ofreaching out. So if you want to find me on the Web, I'mat Roderick Jeffersoncom on twitter, at the Voice of Rod, on Facebook,at the Voice of Rod, and also you can find us on our youtubechannel. Not Linkedin, come on doing linkedin. Linkedin, absolutely Linkedin isalso at Robert Jefferson and associates. Awesome Robert Jefferson Associates, R j.You can see how easily I've co opted Urj into might not sound sounds yours. Good. Yeah, that's it. Sounds like I've been saying it forever. Flowed, like you've done this exactly. Listen, thank you very much foryour time and thanks for teaching us so much about enablement and I hopeto be able to work with you in the future and, if not,a good luck and in all your future endeavor's. CONGRATS on the launch ofthe firm. Thank you so much, my pleasure. I'm sure I'll seeyou guys. It sells Achor and San Francisco. Absolutely talk soon, folks. It's SAM's corner. That was really interesting interview with Roger Jefferson from RogerJefferson and associates, who has spent time at all of the big names thatwe all know in love, sales forcecom Oracle, Marquetto and many, manymore. What I liked? I like a lot of things about what hesaid. Of course it's both true and I'm obligated to say that that's theway sales and promotion work. But one of the things that he said wasyour network is your net worth and he talked about the value and he answeredthat question not just in the context of, like a your not work helps youclose more deals or find new career opportunities, but also just in termsof understanding how to make the transition from an individual contributor to a manager.As he said, it's all about who you know and it's about not justhaving a network but having not just mentors but sponsors. Are J mentioned thatmentor someone who talks about you in a sponsor, someone who talks for you, and that you need those sponsors in your career in order to take thosenext steps. You need people to frankly give you air cover and you needpeople to place a bet on you, even when others may not. I'vecertainly had those in my career and a lot of my early growth at PersonalArmy Group of Glg came from first day I started at work. I developedclose relationship with a guy that ended up running most of operations for the company, Guy Named Jonathan Click, and he was my sponsor and he helped meaccelerate my career. So if you're out there and you're thinking about how totake those next steps in your career, I would really strongly encourage you tonetwork. I would encourage you to cultivate and build relationships. You can reachout to me, you can reach out to a bunch of other people.You doesn't have to be hey, will you be my mentor it can beI'm struggling with this question, wondering if you have time to help pay.Can I buy you a coffee? He can have buy you a lunch.But build relationships and build alliances, because you need somebody that's willing to makea bet on you if you want to take those next and subsequent steps inyour career. So that is SAM's corner. Thank you so much for listening andI will see you guys next time. Thank you, and to check outthe show notes, see upcoming guests and play more episodes from our incrediblelineup of sales leaders, visit salesackercom and head to the podcast have. You'llfind us on itunes or Google play. Obviously, if you enjoyed this episode, share it with your friends or peers on Linkedin, twitter or elsewhere.I guess elsewhere would be facebook. If you want to get in touch withme, find me on twitter at Sam f Jacobs or on Linkedin at linkedincomin, Slash Sam f Jacobs. Twitter is for political ramblings and ventings.Linkedin is for professional correspondence. So if...

...you have strong political affiliations or perspectivesand don't want to get angered by my personal views, then probably linked inis a better place now. Once again, a big shout out to our sponsorsfor this episode. Air Call Your Advanced Call Center software, complete businessphone and contact center, a hundred percent natively integrated into any crm and outreach, a customer engagement platform that helps efficiently and effectively engage prospects to drive morepipeline and close more deals. I'll see you next time.

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