The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

18. Setting Up the Right Sales Onboarding Plan w/ Roderick Jefferson

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This week on the Sales Hacker podcast, we feature Roderick Jefferson, a leader in the sales enablement space to talk about sales enablement and onboarding new sales reps. Tune in!

One, two, one, three, three flo welcome to the salesacker podcast. Folks, this week on the sales hacker podcast we're excited that we've got not one but two amazing sponsors. So this episode is episode eighteen and we're going to be interviewing Roderick Jefferson. It was a great interview and I'm excited to share it with you guys. But first let me tell you about our sponsors. So the first is air call. I've talked about them before. Their phone system designed for the modern sales team. They seamlessly integrate into your crm, eliminating data entry for your reps and providing you with greater visibility into your team's performance through advance reporting. And when it's time to scale, you can add new lines in minutes and use incall coaching to reduce ramptime for your new reps. so visit air call dot io forward sales hacker to see why uber done and Bradstreet, pipe drive and thousands of others trust are call for the most critical sales conversations. I can also tell you from my conversations with the team over there that they are scaling very, very quickly and really just doing an incredible job. Our second sponsor is a company guys probably know, outreach. outreached io the leading sales engagement platform. They triple the productivity of sales teams and outreach empowers them to drive predictable and measurable revenue growth by prioritizing the right activities and scaling customer engagements with intelligent automation. Outreach makes customer facing teams more effective and approves visibility into what really drives results. So hop off or too outreach that IO forwards salesacer to see a thousands of customers, including cloud, are glass door, Pandora and Zilo, rely on outreach to deliver higher revenue for sales rap. Finally, want to give us some shoutouts to some of the folks that are listening out there. As I mentioned, the PODCAST has been growing. Every week's been bigger than the last, so that's been exciting and thank you so much for everybody that's listening and sending me your comments and send me your questions. A couple people that I want to specifically thank right now. Grandma Gallagher from Blu cat is hoping for a conversation and episode about negotiation and pricing, which we will happily do. John Austin, who's the CEO of Taligent. He mentioned to me that I remind him of Michael Barbarrow from the daily at the New York time, so obviously that's amazing. Thank you. John took Faun, who's a sales rep sign post to love the sign post the company and he's starting his own podcast, so be on the lookout for that. Armor Doyle, WHO's an account executive at sales force, who love the Dan Pink episode. Thank you, Narmer, Bruce Bignell from pidda metrics, who listens doubt over in London, and a bunch of other great folks, Logan Lyles, Brian Smith Jr from higher velocity, who's post to the launch pad, and Joscelyn Donlin from conformist. So that's a mouthful, but it's a lot of folks. And again, if you're out there and you're listening and you have a question, you have some feedback, you want to hear a different format, please let me know. We listen to our fans here and we listened listeners and I want to get better. So I want to make sure that we're responsive, but without further ado. Thanks for bearing with us. Let's listen to episode at eighteen with Roderick Jefferson. Okay, everybody, welcome to the sales hacker podcast. We're really excited about our show today. My guest today is Roger Jefferson and he's the CEO of Roger Jefferson and associates. We take it that is his own consulting firm. He's an acknowledged thought leader in the sales enablement space and he's got twenty years of leadership experience building enablement organizations across the enterprise and SMB universe. He's won a bunch of awards, including the two thousand and fifteen sales on boarding program of the year by serious decisions. He's one of the founding members of the sales enablement society and he's a member of several advisory boards, including Capella University and celeration. So, Roderick, welcome has and thanks a lot. appreciated. Thanks for having me on. So you know, what we like to do, just to sort of like get things started, is to understand a little bit more about you and get a little bit of what we call your baseball card. So let's start off. Tell us what is Roger Jefferson and associates. So we are a consulting firm focused on small medium sized business in that kind of tend to five hundred million dollar range and what we focus on is really helping to drive consistency, repeatable and scale will practices that...

...lead to increase revity. So focused on speed to revenue on the front side on the sales consulting piece. Also we have a focus on leadership and executive coaching and finally, the third arm of the chair, if you will, is focused on keynote speaking. Okay, so you guys are doing a lot of different things. And then ten to five hundred million as a very wide range. So first of all, long have you've been doing this on your own? So we are in your one. Prior to that, for those twenty years I was in corporate in a number of different companies and got to a point where it felt like it was really time to step out and hang that shingle and move towards the pieces of enablement that I absolutely loved and put some of the corporate things on the shelf for a while. Congratulations. I've done the same thing in the past and it's always fun to build your own business so twenty years. A lot of folks in the audience that are coin executives, that are sales managers, that are always thinking about their career and managing their career in the right way. So what's your background? Where you from and where'd you grow up? And how did we get from there to hear? Sure, originally from Texas, Louisiana area. Grew up in the south, so very different from San Francisco Bay area where I lived. Ay after school, came out this way and started working in sales. So I am first and foremost of sales guy. CARE to bag for five years sales leadership as well, and got to a point where had done really well. went to Presidents Club a couple of times. Well, company was this atnt Oh, okay, cool, and once presidents club and realize that I really love the process of selling, and so from there I moved into it. That time a sells training will and was able to take some of the processes and tools that I had come up with, which were very infantile back then, and replicated in scale and from their created my own small niche in the training space and from there moved and since then in my career I have either run or grass rooted. Self enablement at sea, will systems, network, appliance, business objects, HP, Ebay, sells force, Oracle and Marquetto most recently wow. So all really, really big companies and what you were doing there was building enablement process. Sales training is a right. Actually what I was doing with building the team, because it I love when people say, Oh, those are great large logos. When I came to see what we were two hundred people, so very small organization and that's why I decided to work in that SMB space. That I think the DOTS will start to connect a bit. When I went to self force, I came in through an acquisition of a small, little tiny company called Jigsaw. That became Datacom and then remember Jack Yeah, yeah, and we're finally integrated into sells force. But I came into Oracle, I came in through the Oracle Marketing Cloud. I was a team of me and so. And when I came into Marquetto, similarly, I came in and built the organization, helped as a part of the leadership team, to kind of craft messaging, positioning, etc. And it just blossom from there. So is it accurate to say that sort of like sales enablement. It's really like the main thing that you're focused on right now. Absolutely, I'd say that's my priory focus. So we were just had we were at a dinner of the New York revenue collective couple nights ago and we were talking about what is the definition of sales enablement? So I'm curious on what your definition is, because I think there's folks out there that sort of lump it into operations. Sometimes people are talking about assembling the sales technology stack. How do you define it? It's interesting sin cells enablement become a very, very sexy term all of a sudden and a lot of organizations have grabbed onto it. Your right. It could be sales ops in some cases, it could be product marketing in other cases. Now my definition, and I'll say that because if you ask ten people you're going to get twelve definitions, and that's actually why we started the cells enablement society was to get a clear definition and a charter for cells enablement. And so my definition is really helping getting seals teams into the right conversations the right way, with the right tools, and we help them to break the complexity of cells enablement into practical ideas through scalable, reputable processes that ultimately lead to increased remedy.

And that's the bottom line. Is What are we helping to do to move the needle from the onboarding all the way through the tools and then stepping into the continuing education piece? So cells enablement is an ongoing occurrence, not a single e bit. What if you're going into an organization and your and they just purchased grodect Jefferson and associates and there's a really wide range of possible activities that you can develop to implement sales enablement, where do you start? What are sort of like the top two or three functions or areas of focus that you drill in on to help accelerate that revenue generation process? Well, there are four components and the first is to do a overall needs analysis and audit, and that is across the multiple lines of business. That's from the executive team down at it's also from the sellers, the individual contributors up, because that gives me a well rounded picture. Then we add in the small sprinkles of let me talk to a few of your customers and we talked to some of your top sellers, some of your more difficult or struggling sellers. Let me talk to people in the alliances group because I want to get a well rounded pictures. So that's the first part and then from there the analysis phase is complete. I can now move forward and it will point me into a number of directions, and those directions are generally one building out an onboarding program because most of the companies I deal with there in hypergrowth phase. So when I say on boarding, we're talking about a zero to x x program and I say xx because for your SDR btrs, of which that's where my career started, so I got a lot of love for bears and as DRS, and so for there it's a zero to thirty day. But when you're talking about your as your sees, your CSM's and back into the house, it's generally a sixty day. And yes, I said sixty, not a ninety day. I'd say one of the things that I'm proudest of is at Marquetto we are able to streamline time to first close from eighty eight to fifty four days. Now, imagine the productivity you get from that. How do you do that? That is the secret sauce that comes with Robert Jefferson stations. It's really quite simple. It's listen, learn, then lead. And so the next component is where we start the we got the listen, got the learned. Now it's time to lead. And the next piece is either to help established and or up level. The exist thing cells enablement function inside of a company. And finally, the fourth component is putting in place a long term continuing education strategy, as well as the tools, the templates, the KPIS and then the associates coming to play for the execution piece. So how does sales enablement differ from sales management? How where do you draw the line in the distinction, because a lot of what you just said feels like it's the job of the sales manager or VP of sales to do all of those things. There is a symbiotic hand in glove relationship between the two. I believe that enablement is here to understand the needs of the business and translate those into tools, templates, programs processes, and then where the sales leadership comes in is they should own the adoption in the execution piece and then on the back end, enablement circles back again to own the tracking, the metrics, the Kpis and the reporting piece. So we're working hand in hand. Okay, interesting. So is it accurate to say that your process is that listen, learn lead? Is that accurate or you know, what are some of the fundamental building blocks that you're teaching the teams when you go in there? Well, you're absolutely right. You know, it is the listen, learn lead philosophy that we take and where we dig in his once we understand where the gaps are or in some cases, in a lot of cases, the silos are, then what we do is help to collaborate, communist, Kate and then orchestrate. I look at cellamt when as the hub that spokes out to every part of the organization. I call us the translators of dialects and languages, and what I mean is I don't expect product marketing and marketing...

...and ops to all speak each other's languages, but we have to be able to speak all those two translate it into sales, speak out to our prospects and customers and then turnversely, to bring it back in house and get that feedback and be able to articulate it to each of those organizations in a language that makes sense to them. Are there any specific tactics that you use to do that? And I guess the other question I have is do you report in your you know, for we're part of a high growth, hyper growth business. Are you reporting up to the chief Revenue Officer? Are you reporting to the CEO? How do you view sort of like the ORG chart to make sure that the hand in Glib relationships most effective? It's actually all of the above, and that's the great thing about being a consultant is you actually have a horizontal report rather than a standard use case of having the org chart. So generally I'm working with the CRO sometime to see us, or the CSO, whichever they may have. We always want to make sure that the COE is included because of the OPS pieces that come into place from the execution. And then I want to also align with the CMO or whoever heads up marketing, because I look at it ablement as the delivers of that content, where marketing is generally creating that content understood. What's the true value of sales enablement in a growing or like how do you characterize that value? How To you define it? I guess one of the ways that you just defined it, as you mentioned shortening the sales cycle or the time to first close from in Marquetto pretty significantly. Sounded almost like twenty to thirty percent. Is that how you define the sort of like the true value of enablement? Well, I think that's a component of the value of an able and it's a strong opponent because we are hit in hand, focused on creating that's seving that creating, but really ushering in that acceleration to revenue. And the value, I think, comes from for pieces. One is the purpose of an ablement, as I outlined earlier, and that is about driving revenue. Second is the people piece. What's the right structure and talent needed to be able to achieve that purpose? The next is the programs that we bring into place. That can be on boarding, accreditation, certifications, qb yards, guided learning plans, those kind of things. And the last piece is the orchestration inside of the given platform, and that is kind of what are the systems and tools that are required to really manage all of those other pieces we talked about. So it's really orchestration. So let's dive into on boarding a little bit. I'm super interested in it because I've always I've never been very good at it. But when you think about like a perfectly designed on boarding process, and you mentioned for strs and your perspective, so you're saying you expect them to be fully ramped. Is that right? It within thirty days, and then you expect account executives to be fully rammed within sixty days? Is that dependent on a specific market segment? Is that depends on a specific deal size? And what are the elements that enable, to the point of enablement, one of those people that just joined a company to be so productive and so short a time? So let me replace fully ramped with proficient to start with, because fully ramped is one of those funny terms that is really defined inside of a given house. So I prefer to go with proficient, and that is they have the tools, the processes, the programs and the content to be able to go out and message and position consistently and to be able to understand the pieces of the discovering qualification, as well as the messaging and positioning, the internal partner ecosystem that it takes to close this deal, and then the processes and tools that happen once the deal closes. Now, when you say fully ramped. That depends by its market. Second I could have fully ramped by BTR, obviously very different than S ANDB MIT market. And then a longer piece when you look at the enterprise, because one is a volume velocity deal, one is an activity deal and another one is a relationship cell to the point of like a great onboarding program is there specific learning methodologies that you're using? Is it, you know, it's really a classroom orientation where you're constantly using sort of like an online potter, like mind tickle or something like that, to do quizzes? How do you think about designing it so that...

...we can get to proficiency as quickly as possible? Is it multi media? Is it all kinds of different things? Do you customize it to the client? How do you think about it? It is a multi media approach because there are different types of leaders. Yeah, you've got your visuals, your kind esthetic, etc. So we've got to make each that we hit all of those. But we do have a centralized communication strategy that we put in place for every one of our engagements and it goes like this. You need to have some form of content management system in place. You need to have a learning management system, in place. We want to also make sure that you have a centralized event calendar. You've got reinforcement activities that come into place, whether that be calls, webinars, etc. Here's another one. Want to make sure that you have a podcast library in place because, as we know, our sellers are getting younger and younger and the millennials that's the way they learn, so we have to go to them. The next component is to make sure you've got leadership coaching and finally, some form of ongoing benchmarking, like a serious decisions or something at that point. Okay, super interesting. So content management system, like think that means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. Are there specific like walk me through specifically the first two? So the content management the learning management. How are those different? I'm just ignorant, I guess. And how do they work together? No, no ignorance at all. Actually they work hand in hand. So the content management system is about getting the right information to the right folks at the right time. So you've got your DEX DOTS and your white papers in those such that's it generally in that location, right. Is that like burroom? Would that be an example of like a content management platform is a something of that sort. Then you've got the the learning platform or the LMS, like a learn, coore, binetickle, etc. Where anything that you are now tracking and report being on should sit inside of your elms so that you have a single source and location for all of your ongoing educational records. That makes a lot of sense. I mean, I'm what's the adoption of those systems at this point? Well, that's when we come in and that's a first of all phenomenal question, because one of the strengths of coming in. Let's say you just purchase one of those learning platforms. Now you've got this, you've got all of this content and you have some assymbilants of the other tools that I talked about. What do you do with them and how do you make sure that there is a orchestration between those and it flows cohesively with a handoff between them and it doesn't feel like I'm in my cms, stop now I go to my learning management system, stop, now I have to go and utilize this calendar. Stop. So what we do is help them put together a consistent and contiguous flow of all those different platforms and tools so that they all play and talk together, interested seamless to the user. That's the key. Are you bringing a sales philosophy to the whole thing? Is it? Are you bringing in like value based selling, like a Miller Heiman kind of framework, a challenger sale mentality? Is there a specific underpinning philosophy that you try to introduce in the context of deploying all these systems, or are you adapting your approach to whatever it is that you know the client is actually using at the time? How about both? We are very, very agile and adaptive to those and the great thing of being in sales ablet for the last twenty five years is I have actually instituted just about every one of those that you've talked about, whether it be challenger all the way back to the old spin, and that's probably going to show my age, but everything in between. So there's another standing there. We have a very senior team, but we also in house have, for those that don't have a sales methodology, we have our own cells of methodology we call agility selling, so that can be instituted alongside with the others or in place of the others. Tell us about agility selling. Let's here. It's more about solving of issues rather than really focused on something like a challenger, which, quite honestly, I don't consider a sales methodology. I considered a sales approach, but there it's about curiosity, about continually and asking questions. The answer with a Julie Selling it's about problem solving. First question we have is what problems do...

...you have that are now causing you pain? Sounds similar to every other methodology, right the product. The difference is we approach it in a reverse order. Instead of starting with that problem, we start with the buyer journey. Where does that problem that you have fit into the overall buyers journey? Rather than trying to have your sales process, your sales stages, fit into that buyer journey, let's start with the buyer and figure out how then your sales stages fit into the overall buy and drink. I would imagine that part of what you do is take whatever they've gotten and sure that it's embedded into like a so absolutely, and then we look at the crm and make sure that's all tied together. Yeah, you've been doing this. Like you said, you're sort of a pioneer in the in the sales enableming space. Thank you for pioneer instead of GRANDPA. What's changed selling for twenty five years working at some of these, as you said, big logos, and some of the points at which you've joined these companies is through acquisition, so you're at a smaller company line. Of course, Jigsaw was really well known back in the olden days. How do you view the sort of the approach to sales, what the buyers experiences with all of us trying to pitch them things, and what do you think are the themes that have evolved over the past twenty years, twenty five years? Well, therefore, a few things. First and foremost, I think that buyers are, because of tech fires, are far more savvy now and further along in their buying cycle by the time they actually bring in the cells, rapper and eight. That's one. The second is I believe that the buyers now expect you to speak their language instead of trying to have them conform to your language or your messaging and position. The other piece that has changed significantly are the tools that are required. At one point we would sit down for half an hour and we'd watch a Webinar or we'd listen to an online piece. Not so anymore. Right now the world is about what I call knowledge bits. I can now pull together six five minute podcast where I can't get the typical millennium to sit down for half an hour. So the way that we deliver content has changed significantly. The modalities have changed, they've certainly improved, but they've changed the way that we teach and, most importantly, I think we are getting away from training and getting closer to enablement. And my philosophy is that you train animals and you enable people to the point of a knowledge by right, we just got one. You train animals enable people in practice. What does that mean to you? So let me clarify that for the folks that are out there professional trainers, because I was in that boat as well and I don't negate them at all and I certainly hope they don't take that as a disrespectful statement. That's not the goal. What I mean is training is reactive, it's spot it's one time without a lot of Kpis or Roy around it. Here's what enablement has turned into now, or moving towards, should I say. It is a long term strategy that's woven into the fabric of the company. That starts at the interview process all the way through the life cycle of a sales career. And it's also collaborative, and it's back to my statement earlier. It's about listening, learning then leading. But then you come back with the the K Kepis and the Roi Behind it, and you can now put hard line, let me say that again, hard line ROI figures can now be added to enablement activities. So what are your favorite Kpis to justify the Roi of Hiring Roger Jefferson and associates? Well, I think there are two sets of Kpis. First of all, the drive our eye. There's one that enablement influences, and those are things like accreditation or certification, completion, attach rates, average deal size, collateral, use of frequency, pipeline created, number of closed deals, product mixed by segment. Obviously, quote attainment time, first time to revenue or speed to revenue, first close. There's win rate percentage, there's attach rates, then their crm cleanness. Then there's the pieces that we...

...own, and those are things like the accreditation, passing rates, the course assessment, expectations, assessments, surveys, biannual needs analysis, quotes, an anecdotal feedback and then, of course, the tracking, the metrics and the reporting piece. If I'm I guess the CRO and I want to bring you guys in and I'm trying to think about how to invest in enablement the right way. And I know that we need to design an on boarding program I know that we need to do reinforcement. I need to sort of segment out the investment that we're going to make in sales and implement technology broadly to find the way I'm gonna if I had to pick two met numbers that would improve, would you say it's sort of like win rate and deal size, or am I thinking about that the right well, no, you've nailed it. Is Speed to revenue and deal size increase. Gott it so and to the point of you know, again like the evolution of two thousand and twenty five years and the explosion of tools in the space. So you mentioned. It sounds to me like sort of enablement heavily, you know, depend on thinking about like you want them to have a content management system. They need to have an Lms, something like a learned horror mind tickle or something else. What are the other key tools? I'm thinking about call coaching software. I'm thinking about like cadence and smart sales enablement software. When you think about a recommended text st AC as, you're doing a needs assessment and analysis. We love it if you pick your favorite vendors, but I'm also happened to speaking generalities for fear of offending anybody, but absolutely beender neutral. Well, you know what, you've nailed most of them. I think the only thing that you left out is ensuring that there's some form of centralized event calendar. That way everyone is aware of it and sells leaders can plan for this as well, and you can also work with your people or your HR group to make sure that you are timing your hiring cycles to the events that are coming up. Do you mean like marketing events? Do you mean, Hey, we're hosting a conference? And know what I mean is hiring events. Thinking from a sales perspective, then you can have specific hiring dates based upon if you know you have x number of hours to complete the mandatory prework, that means you've got to bring in your cohort x number of weeks before so they are prepared to sell in x number of weeks as well. That's interesting and any other tools. I mean there's so many new things that are emerging all the time. Any specific categories that you think are particularly exciting? I think we've nailed it. Boat. I really like is the integration of the alams and the learning tools that have become a single that are becoming a single platform, like a learned core, and the show pad acquisition. That was a absolute game changer in the market place, because now what they've done is I can get you all of your content, I can get it to the right people at the right time all but wait, I can also add in the coaching modules and components and then, finally, I can put a wrapper around that and make that reports, dashboards, etc. For the metrics, the tracking and reporting. They are doing something over there that is not being done anywhere else and I dare say disruptive. They're not. Yeah, they are absolutely changing the game. I Apologize For not reading about that acquisition. But what is show pad? The words? So again, show pad is a ton of platform whereby they take all of that content from cms, cms like I would say, and then they distribute it via channels mobile to the right audience at the right time, right content. So let me give you an example. You're a BDR. You're only going to receive certain information. Let's take a high level messaging positioning and start with discovering qualification. You're only going to get that component that aligns to your particular role. Right. We're not giving you modules on once you close. How do you handle this in the crm and when you're in negotiation, you have to do these pieces would legal. You're not doing that. So we get to the content that you need at that time along that journey. And also, let's say you change your corporate pitch. Right, this is something that they can change the corporate push pitch...

...and push it out right away to all of the sellers inside of a channel, rather than going where's the new corporate pitch and where do I find it? No, push it out. I'm out in front of a customer. We got a new pitch. I can set on the parking lot, look at it, go okay. That's what's different. And they also allow you to take content that's already created and then move that around and personalize it for your given customer prospect. Wow, that sounds very, very pliable. Yeah, nominal tool to the point of like the difference between training and enablement. Is enablement and ops the same thing? If I just hired Rob Dandorf, vp of global revenue opps, that's what he is for behaviors. Is that the same thing as a VP of enablement is a different is enablement a function of operations? Is operations a function of enablement? Just getting all the terminology clear in my head. What's your point of view on that? Again, yes and no. Depends on the company. In my career I reported to opts. However, as the enablement piece has grown over the last two thousand and twenty five years, it is a standalone organization that is handinhand and bfs, if you will, with cells ups. And here's why. Because we've got all of the processes, we've got all of the programs. They own the tools. So it's a natural handoff. Let's start from the very beginning. Marketing has the content, the messaging, positioning, etc. They hand off to us for our processes and our programs. We hand off to ops to make sure that those are scalable and repeatable inside of the company. Selected tools. Got It. You're out there consulting. If there's founders listening to this and thinking about maybe their early stage companies thinking about hiring their first batch of sales people and beginning to scale up. What are the biggest mistakes that sort of early stage companies make when it comes to revenue, and you know, what is your advice to them on how they can avoid those mistakes, assuming that because they sold somewhere else and they were successful, they would be successful inside of your organization? We have all focused for the longest on ideal customer profile. What I've been introducing, is I'm consulting is let's focus on the ideal employee profile now, and that's where I believe sells. enablement should be a part of the interview process because, one we had come at it with a different set of lenses and secondly, our BS meter is much higher and thirdly, we're looking at the propensity for long term success inside of the programs that were helping the build. How do you evaluate that or assess that, because I that sounds like in a I've heard of many other people say that just because one person successful at Xyz company doesn't mean they're going to be successful at the next, and of course the inverse is true. But also that's even more challenging for a hiring manager or sales manager to make the case for which is actually, this person sucked and their wholes role, but they're going to be great here. So what's the framework for the interview process that helps you uncover the the actual alignment? The Way I've always explained it to sales leaders is when it comes to interview, we can do it right or we can do it fast. Well, you don't get both. So which way do you want it? And what I mean by that is we can do it fast, so we can get folks in because they look great on Linkedin. They come in with the beautiful resume that says they've killed this, they went to President's Club here, etc. Now let's talk about right way. That is having folks from multiple lines of business, OPS, sales, maybe, legal and enablement all talk to that individual. Yeah, okay, got multiple people talking, but at the same time what you get now is a well defined road map from different angles with different priorities looking at that same person, and you get that checked off. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but far less often do you get someone that sucks. That's hard to do because every person is everybody's busy, and then the other part of it is you probably have to like a sign each of those people specific. Do you do that thing where you know your job is to assess this criteria, it's job is to assess this greater and here's the score card, things like...

...that. Absolutely, and again everybody is busy. But let's go back to my definition earlier of enablement. It is woven into the fabric of the company. So that means that we only want to bring people in that they're going to make the entire company successful. And I'm not saying you should have sixteen interviews, don't get me wrong right, but it should definitely be be a well rounded approach. Most of the time people go, all right, I want you to talk to The v depending upon where you are in the food chain, of course you're going to talk to the VP of sales, you're going to talk to a sales leader and then you're going to talk to one of your teammate. Okay, great, you just talk to three or four different people with the same mindset. How about I want you to talk to someone from sales leadership, someone from an ablement, someone from ops, now which you get as diversity of thought around that person and yes, you have individual pieces that you're looking for and the red flags may be very different in one category than they are another. Would you say you need consensus, that everybody has to vote, I or start a score card and you're trying to clear a certain bar and the hiring manager gets to make the final call. No, I think consensus creates too much complexity and I've never been a fan of hiring by committee. That's where I think the score card comes in. If they score higher here and there, and ultimately these people all have a voice, the ultimate vote comes down to the hiring manager. We're really just giving you our input on what we're seeing from our perspective, in our lenses. Yeah, all right, this has been really, really helpful to people. Ever call you. Rod might allowed to do that or no, which you prefer, Rodrick? It's actually RJ. Make it real simple. That's even better. All right, RJ. A few more questions. So here's something that happens to me a lot on linkedin. I get outreacher, I end up interviewing people, but started off in a different function, and I mean how many, so many different vpiece of sales, because it's really hard to major in sales as many, many people will teach you, and so you know they measured in political science or they were going to be lawyers and they end up in a sales career. So I think there's a lot of people out there they don't know how to assess themselves to see if they would be a good fit for a sales career. What do you think are the criteria? You know, if you're a young person working in product or you're an investment banking and you want to make the jump to startups, how do you self evaluate to figure out if you'd be good at sales? What are the qualities that you think are important? First of all, none of US major in sales. I was a radio and television broadcast Major. How I got here is still beyond me right so I do a lot of speaking of different colleges and universities that I get this question a lot, and so the answer I always give is you will find six to eight jobs in your life. Your career will find you. So if it doesn't find you right away, it's okay, but it will find you avnsul. Now, if you want to go into sales, the thing I always tell people is start doing the most nonthreatening activity on the planet. Ask someone for an informational interview. I'm not asking for your job, I'm not asking to help me get into company. I'm asking you to tell me about you, the one thing that everybody's going to talk about. But go in and make sure that you have a set plan of questions that are going to help you direct and navigate either left or right when you come out of this conversation. It's not just hey, so tell me about your career and what you did. It's I have specific questions about. Tell me what your job looks like. What do you love about your job? What do you not like about your job? And I call it the candy bar piece, and that is what would you do if you were only paid in candy bars in your job today? That's interesting. Do you have a point of view on, you know, the extrovert versus introvert versus amberer? Obviously there's all this research recently that actually introverts or pretty good at sales. You know, besides, Informational Inter views are they're sort of like ways of looking inside yourself to figure out if it's really going to be a good match for you. There are and it comes down to what segment? Again, if you're looking to come in as a BEDR and an ser, you need to be someone that has the propensity to learn and not afraid to say these three words. I don't know. You Walk in as a sponge, you will be incredibly successful as a Dr. now let's move up. You're walking into a potential role that is an SMB and its volume velocity. If you don't have a strong attention to detail, you can't...

...shake and move and churn quickly. That's not the role for you, because that's what you're going to be doing, is working with multiple companies, multiple clients, multiple personalities all at once, and you have to keep those in some kind of alignment and keep all of the plate spinning in the air. If you're coming in an enterprise role, whole completely different ball game. Generally a relationship cell and probably going to be more mature later in your career. I don't know a lot of folks to come out of school and walk right into enterprise cells rules. For that reason, we're expecting you to bring your tenure, your background, your knowledge and, in the old term, your rolodecks or your network. These days, and that's just not established yet. Yeah, it's really interesting. One last question. We always like to sort of get influences and hear about other people books that you're reading and things like that. But you know, another question that I get fairly often. You made this leap early in your career, it sounds like. I get questions from individual contributors. There's different flavors of this question. One of them is, Hey, I'm being presented with the management opportunity, but I'm also being presented with this incredible kind of icee individual contributor opportunity and you know, how do I think about that? The second might be I've been doing this thing for a little while at small company. I'm trying to figure out should I go to the big company and be midlevel or should I, you know, go to the small company and be a VP of sales? But ultimately the foundational sort of question is how do you figure out if you should make the leap to management, how emphatic you should be about moving from an individual contributor role to a management role? What's your advice to people that are sort of face with that dilemma? Or maybe they're not actually being presented with the choice, but they're saying you know what, I've been doing the individual kind of executive thing for long enough and I'm drawing the line in the sand and I'm just going to make myself a manager somewhere, even if it's not it wherever I'm currently employed. Don't draw us a light as to not draw a line in the sand. Let me start there. Enough, we all say by twenty four months, by twelve months, by eighteen months. Now it actually really comes down to what are your career goals? What's going to hand your quality of life? Where do you see yourself going and do you have the network to get there? Let's go with the old adage of your net worth is determined by your network. Okay, we all know that's true, especially in sales. It's about who you know. So I've always looked at it from the perspective of I've done my homework, I've got the numbers that support it, I've got the right folks behind me that are supporting me to move. And do I have a mentor or a sponsor that can help me get there? And let me explain the difference with people to they'll know a mentor is someone that speaks about you. I can get your resume from the right person, I can move you up in line. A sponsor is someone that speaks for you and that is the person that says they may not be ready yet, but I'm willing to put my reputation on the line that I'm going to get them prepared to get there one especially when you're moving to a leadership roll. If you don't have that sponsor that will say that for you, you're not ready, that's interesting. All right, so find a sponsor. Ladies in Germs, by the mentor first, and because sponsors will find you. In your experience, do you reach out to someone, you say will you be my mentor, or do you just develop a relationship and then it sort of happens? I've had people reach out and say will you be my mentor, and it feels like I'm filling a you know, like a slot in like a Mi orksheet. And then other people I don't know whether I'm their mentor or not. I'm just helping them throughout the course of their career because I'm friends with them and I like to help people. Do you have a point of view on that? Yeah, it's really weird to reach out to someone and saying what you need the mentors, and thank you for confirming that. Had you your high thing of Hey, will, will you be my friend and you're like, I'll even know exactly I think. So I'll make sure. If you may say, you can call me whatever you want. I've got a strong maybe for you on and when it comes to the mentor mental relationship, it is organic and it will grow into that. And for me, for the folks that that I am a mentor for, I ask them a series of questions. When someone says I want should be my mentor, I start with why me? And what do you really know about...

...me beyond what you've read in Linkedin, and that's not an arrogant statement. That is have you done your homework? And the biggest piece that I ask them is, in this relationship of mentor Mente, how are we going to make this mutually equitable? I'm not asking you to buy things, I'm not asking you to do things, but I have to learn something from you the same way that I'm getting back to you, and if you can't tell me what I can learn from you, I'm not the right person to be a mentor for you. Wow, that's tough. RJ. No, no, actually rather than tough. What I would say is it really makes you think about if this is the right person and the right personality type that's going to help you be successful to move to that next level that you're aiming for. I dig it. It's cool. Thank you so much for your time. I've got a few last questions. This has been really, really helpful. If we're thinking about paying it forward and we're thinking about people that you think the audience should know about, let's celebrate some of the other folks out there who are some of your favorite VP's of sales, founders, people that you've worked with. It I really shaped your career over the past two thousand and twenty five years. Oh that's a long list. And if I start saying things and I forget people, they will text and tweet about me. Perhaps your overestimating the audience for the sales actor podcast. It's just me and my mom listening. Man, yeah, it's just US three right here it is. Come on, I know you guys. It Sell Sacre way too long. There are some great people out there and there I put them in a different categories and if I leave anyone out, please forgive me. Tweet me and I will make a huge apology on linked that, I promise. There you go. There are the influencers, the sponsors in the mentors, right, and that's one category. And that category I put people like Bill McDermott, I put Tom Mendoza, I put Rob Acker, I put Kevin Ackroyd. Those are the kind of people that have really helped to mold me and grew me to prepare to move up in bid to my career. Right. Then I put the quote unquote, thought leaders, which has been overused but I believe is a real term. And when I look at that category, I look at people like Gearhart Swantner, I look at Darryl Spryder, I look at him Oh hi and Ross Tamor Schmidt and I could go on, John Barrows, a number of people that fit. I put Max into that that category as well. Sure, absolutely, Max and I had had some great conversations that made me walk away going wow, that's very different than what I thought. Right, Max is a very different approach to life. That's what we love about it. And and as of recently I put Guy Tano in there too, because when I step back and I look at things and I ask questions and he's like yeah, but have you thought of it from this angle? And and you notice, as the seasoned veteran, most of the people that I just rattled off are younger than me. Again, I'm learning from them. Well, he always got to be learning. You have to have a beginner's mind, as they say. Any books that we should be reading that you have been fluenced you recently? Yeah, I read one recently that completely has changed my go to market strategy and my approach to business with my own consulting firm, and that is by Donald Miller and it's building your brand strategy, building your brand strategy. Okay, by Donald Miller. It's just a blue print to success. That's awesome. Okay, I will read that our j thank you so much. Any parting words of wisdom? What's Your Life Motto? Anything that you can leave us with as we head off into the sunset? We're recording this on a Friday afternoon, so as I go go home see my wife, first of all I do humbly thank you and I appreciate the opportunity. Absou lot on to the show and I'll leave people with my life motto and that is my Hashtag that you'll see on every single post that put up on all social media. Hope is not a strategy. There you go. Hope is not a strategy. We got to do this thing. We got asolutely. We have to have an actual plan. There it is. I like it. RJ, thanks so much for participating in the salesacer podcast. If we want to reach out to you,...

...to hire you or to email you or to get advice, first of all, a's. That okay. And then be what is your preferred assuming that it is, but okay, if it's fine with us. If you say no, but assuming that it is, okay, what's your preferred communication channel? How should we find you if we if we would seek to? First of all, I'M A business guy. Absolutely it's okay. He reach that leads. Okay, leads are good. These are very good. We like leads. Everyone has their way of reaching out. So if you want to find me on the Web, I'm at Roderick Jeffersoncom on twitter, at the Voice of Rod, on Facebook, at the Voice of Rod, and also you can find us on our youtube channel. Not Linkedin, come on doing linkedin. Linkedin, absolutely Linkedin is also at Robert Jefferson and associates. Awesome Robert Jefferson Associates, R j. You can see how easily I've co opted Urj into might not sound sounds yours. Good. Yeah, that's it. Sounds like I've been saying it forever. Flowed, like you've done this exactly. Listen, thank you very much for your time and thanks for teaching us so much about enablement and I hope to be able to work with you in the future and, if not, a good luck and in all your future endeavor's. CONGRATS on the launch of the firm. Thank you so much, my pleasure. I'm sure I'll see you guys. It sells Achor and San Francisco. Absolutely talk soon, folks. It's SAM's corner. That was really interesting interview with Roger Jefferson from Roger Jefferson and associates, who has spent time at all of the big names that we all know in love, sales forcecom Oracle, Marquetto and many, many more. What I liked? I like a lot of things about what he said. Of course it's both true and I'm obligated to say that that's the way sales and promotion work. But one of the things that he said was your network is your net worth and he talked about the value and he answered that question not just in the context of, like a your not work helps you close more deals or find new career opportunities, but also just in terms of understanding how to make the transition from an individual contributor to a manager. As he said, it's all about who you know and it's about not just having a network but having not just mentors but sponsors. Are J mentioned that mentor someone who talks about you in a sponsor, someone who talks for you, and that you need those sponsors in your career in order to take those next steps. You need people to frankly give you air cover and you need people to place a bet on you, even when others may not. I've certainly had those in my career and a lot of my early growth at Personal Army Group of Glg came from first day I started at work. I developed close relationship with a guy that ended up running most of operations for the company, Guy Named Jonathan Click, and he was my sponsor and he helped me accelerate my career. So if you're out there and you're thinking about how to take those next steps in your career, I would really strongly encourage you to network. I would encourage you to cultivate and build relationships. You can reach out to me, you can reach out to a bunch of other people. You doesn't have to be hey, will you be my mentor it can be I'm struggling with this question, wondering if you have time to help pay. Can I buy you a coffee? He can have buy you a lunch. But build relationships and build alliances, because you need somebody that's willing to make a bet on you if you want to take those next and subsequent steps in your career. So that is SAM's corner. Thank you so much for listening and I will see you guys next time. Thank you, and to check out the show notes, see upcoming guests and play more episodes from our incredible lineup of sales leaders, visit salesackercom and head to the podcast have. You'll find us on itunes or Google play. Obviously, if you enjoyed this episode, share it with your friends or peers on Linkedin, twitter or elsewhere. I guess elsewhere would be facebook. If you want to get in touch with me, find me on twitter at Sam f Jacobs or on Linkedin at linkedincom in, Slash Sam f Jacobs. Twitter is for political ramblings and ventings. Linkedin is for professional correspondence. So if...

...you have strong political affiliations or perspectives and don't want to get angered by my personal views, then probably linked in is a better place now. Once again, a big shout out to our sponsors for this episode. Air Call Your Advanced Call Center software, complete business phone and contact center, a hundred percent natively integrated into any crm and outreach, a customer engagement platform that helps efficiently and effectively engage prospects to drive more pipeline and close more deals. I'll see you next time.

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