The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 3 months ago

197: How to Fix the Pain Points Around Demoing

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode of the Sales Hacker Podcast, we have Jonathan Friedman, CEO & Co Founder at Demostack. Join us for a conversation about how Jonathan’s company is helping reps tell the story of their companies more effectively and productively — Freeing up time to spend in more engaging conversations with their customers and prospects.

What You’ll Learn

  1. The origin story that comes from a deep affinity w/ a specific problem
  2. Building Demostack in response to a lack of correct information
  3. The concept of a team, not a family 

Show Agenda and Timestamps

  1. About Jonathan Friedman & Demostack [1:51]
  2. From young entrepreneur to professional background [4:38]
  3. Key strategies to getting a company off the ground [11:25]
  4. How quickly categories can spring into existence [16:58]
  5. Building the right kind of culture [20:22]
  6. Why the demo is so messed up [25:00]
  7. Paying it forward [29:55]
  8. Sam’s Corner [33:30]

One, two, one three, hey everybody, as Sam Jacobs, welcome to the salesacker podcast. Today on the show we've got Jonathan Freedman. Jonathan is the CO founder and CEO of Demo Desk, a really interesting new company focused on helping reps tell the story of their companies more effectively, more productively and spend time in more engaging conversations with their customers in their prospects. So it's a great conversation. Now, before we get there, we want to thank our sponsors, of course. The first is outreached. Our reach is the first and only engagement and intelligence platform built by revenue innovators for revenue innovators. Outreach allows you to commit an accurate sales forecast, replace manual processes with real time guidance and unlock actionable customer intelligence that guides you and your team to win. More often, traditional tools don't work in a hybrid sales world. Find out why outreaches the right solution at click dot outreach, dot io forward thirty MPC. We're also sponsored by pavilion. Pavilion is the key to getting more out of your career. Our private membership connects you with a network of thousands of like minded peers and resources where you can tapp into dozens of leadership opportunities, classes and training through Pavilion University. Enroll in sales school, Sales Development School, marketing school and many, many more for yourself or for your entire team. Learn more at join PAVILIONCOM. And finally, Flock Jay. With sales becoming increasingly knowledge driven and digital first, elite sales leaders are looking for ways to invest in the most important part of their tex stact, their people. Flock Jay helps sales teams from five to five thousand do their best work by automatic capturing, tagging and sharing best practices wherever they are. Find out how to elevate your sales team at flockshaycom forward slash sales hacker. Now let's listen to my conversation with Jonathan Freedman. Okay, everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the sales hacker podcast. We're excited to have Jonathan Freedman on the show today. Jonathan is the cofounder and CEO at Demo Stack, a platform that helps ass companies accelerate growth with better demos. Previously, Jonathan was had a product at trip actions, a seven point two five billion dollar corporate travel platform, where he led trip actions liquid from an idea to a fullbone strategic business. In twelve months. Before trip actions, Jonathan successfully brought multiple technology products to market with two exits. He's passionate about building and scaling products at the cutting edge of technology and business. Jonathan, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for so much for having with them. We're excited to have you. So what we like to start with is your baseball card, which is effectively a way of helping you pitch demo stack, since since that's one of the reasons that you're on the show. So, DEM WHAT IS DEMO STACK? Tell us about the company, tell us about how you started it and tell us about what you do. Sure, yeah, so then, with stack helps you win more deals. It's a better the moving platform. It helps you tell the story of your product and we get personizable. It's almost like staging for software, so you can make your software tell us store worry that you want. You want to tell not as a...

...county's at them environment that someone built for you a while ago and you trying to kind of make sense off during commercial calls, but actually a platform built for showcasing the origin story is very I really hit the problem head on in different rules and I kind of saw how hard demoing is and how it's always an afterthought, and I just became obsessed with it and had to eventually kind of go in and solve it for myself and then, of course, from many others when I saw there's no other solution. Happy talk about the origin story here, unless you want to focus more and then with that itself. Well, we'll do both. So the company, just tell us where you are in your growth journey. You know how much capital of your as, how many people work at the company? Where are you and sort of and when did you start the company, all of those things. Yeah, so the company is fairly young. Well, we are about fifteen months old. Oh Wow. Yeah, and we grew very fast. We raised roughly twenty million dollars overall in two rounds. We're over sixty people now, which is which is insane. It's amazing. I can sort remember where I could just two or three people trying to figure this out, and now teams of people across three countries working on this. We have our offices and R and D in Israel and we have a we have an arready center and in Serbia as well, and we have a go to market is in the US, mostly California, but also other states. Yeah, so, so fairly on company me, but I feel like we've done a lot and of course start up hears, you know, every every year counts of seven. So your middle aged of this point. How will tell us a little bit about your background. You and I read, I read in your bio that you've had two exits and certainly I you know candidly. My Company pavilion, we use a liquid the product that you built a trip actions, and work trip actions customers. So and happily so. But walk us through a little bit about your background. Howd you how'd you get here? I know that you're based in San Francisco. How did you find your way to San Francisco? Tell us what the companies you built and a little bit about your previous experience. Sure, so, I've always been entrepreneur, I think from the age of fourteen and fifteen, when nobody wanted to employ me, of course, because I was a kid, and I found a way to sell Coca Cola cans and the junction next to my house and made money. I think some something just I got theorization where I can, I can I can determine my own faith. I can create money out of thin air, just coming to a market with a product they want. And so I always had something that I was doing on the side and had Dutch pancakes as well when I was still young. And then in the army, I think also in entrepreneurship is a lot of selling. Always selling something, selling an idea, you selling a vision, you selling something around there. And in my army service, I actually it's Mendator. I'm from Israel originally, and army services mandatory. I was a special investigator, a criminal investigator, and there you sell people and the...

...idea that they need to, you know, talk about what they did, which is usually not recommended, by the way, at least this stud up and asked for a lawyer. But my idea was to sell, to tell you that you should. After army service, I went to study in Holland and in my batches my master's there again, the idea was to study business, to be INENTREPRENEUR. Very naive thought in hindsight, but but during school also are there, I started to kind of open more digital businesses. I opened I started a business called student events, which was about aggregating all kind of professional events for students in a website and then selling access to HR managers that wanted to recruit those students. I raise money for that while still in school and did had next to next to studying. I had no idea what I was doing back then, but eventually did meant so to Dutch company there in after school, I knew that what was what I want to do. So entrepreneurship was always my passion, but now I want to do high tech entrepreneurship. So at that point I went back to Israel and started company called reactful, which was in the conversion optimization space. And Are you? Are you technical? Are you an engineer, or are you in the process of starting reactful, going out and recruiting or developing relationships with other engineers and your leading product, so to speak? What's what was the skill so that you were bringing? Besides, yeah, just wanted to be around Boston create something. Honestly, I know I'm not. I'm not technical and INSENSE. I am technical in terms of how I think about the world, but I'm not, I'm on, an engineer. I think my skill set is all about just being able to think, imagine, envision a concept. It's about bringing of energy to kind of make it go alive and then help bring into market and help think about it strategically inform it. But no, not technical. Actually met WHO's not the person who was my Cteo at reactual and is again my cteo today, when I was in Israel kind of dating at different founders to kind of find find a good fit. Amazing. So what happened was reactful, so would reactual. We raise money. I moved to the US to build a US operations. That's how I got to San Francisco and eventually we had a buyout. We we saw the company, company still around, but we we stopped being involved. We be built really cool technology. The company never blew away but you know, still had had a nice space of customers and kept kept going in a slow pace. Afterwards, I actually went to travel in India and Nepal Cambodia just to remember there's a world outside Celkon valley and but when I came back actually want to start a new company. When when I actually met the founders of trip actions and asked me phone and to start to put in a startup and then asked me how trepaction would think about expense management, and that's when I came with a pitch which eventually I was when I was recruited, just became trip actings liquid. So I was really kind of the the seed. They're kind of build everything up from the ground up. And what is trip actions liquid? For those that don't know,...

Chrip, actually quid is essentiality D E in tne, the travel and expenses. So it essentially replaces expense management by letting you use virtual and physical cards to pay for anything you need on the road or for the office and have that automatically kind of be reconciled, so you don't need to do it expense expense reports anymore, which is a huge deal, and it helps finance teams control and manage spend on the scalable way. So yeah, it's very, very useful, especially for travel companies. sentially just payments goes with travel. So that was kind of sentially to counter bounce and help travel be way, way smoother and for expense management to go away. So that's a quid. And you built it and you know, built it in twelve months and then what? What? How long had you been at trap, trip actions, when you decided? You know what this is, because trip actions is a start up, yes, but they're also, I think, probably well over a thousand employees. It's sort of like a series D, stage or e or something. You know, they're late stage at this point. Yes, so feel could feel like a big company, even though you know they may not think of themselves as such. What point did you say, you know what, I just got to go do my own thing again. This is this is not, you know, I have an idea that that's spurring me. Or this is to corporate, even even though it's not corporate. Well, I genuine they were. I wasn't, I think, employee number four hundred or something like that. So I just won't joined in the Round Sea just when they just real announced around the and then it grew, of course, very fast and nine months had a four billion dollar around. It's a right. Now it's over seven. Yeah, I was almost at almost two years at trip actions and I really liked the building liquid and seeing it grow from really idea and it was really start up. With in startup it was we were we had the side room, you know, nobody knew what we were doing in the first five or six months and then until we launched it. I think I really eventually left to practice because I became obsessed with with them mowing. I just saw the demo pain in realize this is such a big thing and just initially thought was a small problem that you can easily fix, and then I just kind of started getting pulled into it so much. Eventually, with whatever yard I left, left to build them with sects. So that was the only reason I left. Pretty much, I really enjoyed liquid it was my baby. Essentially amazing. So you've started. You know, you've been an entrepreneur for a very long time at this point. What are the you know, when you look at other entrepreneurs, other founders, other people that try to start something that don't succeed, and you think about frameworks, because you meant it, you mentioned that you're sort of like a technical thinker and a systems thinker. Where are the keys to being successful, in your opinion, when you're when you're getting a company off the ground from nothing, to get it into something that exists in the world, that exists independently of you, that can live and survive bringing your baby into the universe so how can we make sure that babies live longer? Well, I would say, as a the most important lesson I learned, I think,...

...especially from, you know, the first companies I started, and you know, liquid and a DEMOSTAC. You're looking for a huge signal. It means that you have an idea, because their million ideas out there and a lot of them are, you know, even fairly good or okay. But you looking for a huge signal, you looking for a pull from the market. That's that's almost crazy. You know, I remember, like when I when we started, we we put a message on some board, like he does. Anyone have demo problems, and we had like so many people reply and people wanted to talk to us. You know, I didn't have a deck or and I could barely kind of it. They talk about what we're trying to build a what the problem even is, and we have like people already, like one doctor US sign up, you know, from from good companies like Oh wow, okay, that was surprising to me. But those are the kind of signals that are big that you're looking for. You looking for almost like beauty in it, like what you tell your friends and lot of people. And now it sounds good. No, but people like excited booking their next meeting with you, asking you to add them, add you to their you know, teach kind of being and condor with you and email you about it and ask you if you're still building it, stuff like that. So you looking for a big, big signal, because startups are freaking hard and you need a little perseverance in the thing you don't want to do is work with whe where the signal small. I don't want to. You don't want to work with the demand is maybe a little bit. There a need to dig deep. You want demand that's like on on the surface, where you bore a little hole and it just like explodes, and I think that's the biggest, biggest lesson. And then, once you find that, it's all perseverance. Make sure you don't die, make sure your mental health is in chick as a founder, because that's a huge thing that no, always isn't always enough flee enough addressed. It's really very hard. And in just staying the game. I think if you do these two things, you start with a strong signal and you stay in the game for long enough, you will succeed. What do you tell people? It's very certain people are just passionate enough that they can just wait, you know, I mean they maybe they're boring holes, they're boring lots and lots of holes, and if they don't find a strong signal, they're they're patient enough to wait until however long it takes. There's another group of people, you know, they're just so restless and maybe they're maybe they're so convinced that they just need to start something. They're looking at you and they're looking at that other friends. They went to a party with you the other night and God, demostats doing so great. I need to start something, and so they they feel a lot of pressure to turn a low or average signal into something greater. Like are there are there words of wisdom or advice that you give people that are feeling, you know, they're feeling that Fomo, they're feeling left out, or they're just they're trying to turn something into a big signal, a big opportunity, when it's just not quite clear that it is. How do you how do you coach those, those people that are kind of not quite you know, that are feeling a little bit overbird and din order in terms of like finding...

...the right idea. So first I'll set to these people that my heart is with them. I truly believe entrepreneurship is a calling eventually and if it calls you hard enough, it's not you have very little ability to kind of resist and words of wisdom that you hear from other people will not probably persuade you from doing it. And if that's you're calling, you go for it and you learn through the way. But if you want to pause and think about it, like I would just encourage you. You know the idea you're in love with today, it's a thought. Look at it. Look at it. Why the keep keep digging, keep talking, look for a big signal that surprises you of how big it is, and send the restlessness. You want to open a business, but you're going to be in this for the long hole you have. Maybe you know the best entrepreneurs. I maybe what for companies in them overall in the career and best case scenario. I'm not talking Elon Musk. That's a that's a that's a different beach. But if you're not Elon Musk, you what you have like two, three, right Max. So make make it count, and for that you need to make sure that you spend your time where with in a place where would makes sense. So even if you're a passion for something, that's good. I mean I'm saying if you feel restless, go dig in, talk to more people. You know you might be in the right kind of neighborhood of what you want to do. But dig deeper for that signal. So I don't know if you interested in quantum computing or in, I don't Crypto, or you go with that passion, but make sure we within that circle of passion. You dig at least multiple holes and kind of red team yourself. Talk to naysayers and hear what they have to say. Doesn't always accept it, but but hear them out with open heart and then make you make your goal. You have time. It's worth taking another month and then spending five years, thinks, five or six years of your life. And when you're bet a position to actually make it, what's your what's your it's I think it's fastening to the point about strong signal. You know this. The kind of demo creation software was not a thing and then all of a sudden it's a thing and now it's a category, and you know there's demo stack and there's other companies in the space. Does it surprise you how quickly categories that didn't exist because all of a sudden, spring into existence with multiple competitors? Do you worry about competitors or do you feel like, you know what, it doesn't really matter. The markets big enough. I'm just going to execute on the opportunity. In fact, the the existence of competitors is confirmation that there's a big opportunity. How do you how do you view that? Yeah, I think. I think eventually there's a markets are in a state of flux always and when the time is ripe, it will just happen and it will feel magical because it happens all of a sudden. You know, if you think about even your factions liquid right, I mean there was always nothing like that expense mentioned. was done in a certain way for ages and and suddenly a...

...bunch of companies spunging seen and all of them are word billions of dollars and they're a bunch of these companies. To so a market begin, a pool big enough, a signal big enough full attract enough Batman's to come and then want to want to respond to it. I think first, I mean, if you if there's a if there's a signal big enough, then there's also room enough for for many people to take different takes on it. I believe it's a long game. You know, you're playing along game. There's so many examples of companies that were up that were down. You know, eventually focus on what matters. Focus on shipping good product, focus on getting customers to the door and making them happy, and if you do that you have a business. You know the I would also say don't get caught up in all that silicon value noise of right winning, crushing competition, all that piece, all that stuff. It's it's it's not the way you should think about the world. It's not about crushing competition. It's about, you know, building something beautiful. Think about that. A company come companies are hard to build. Building something that's special, that's a unique piece. Focus on that. Yes, understand what comparison doing. Yes, understand the market dynamics. That's understand what what customers want, and some of that's kind of dialing with competition, but think about building the most beautiful, unique company you and to build and try to have a vision that's that's unique, that's that's kind of needed in the world and I'll get don't get caught up and just dog fighting. It's really not not about that and doesn't matter in the long run. Building Good Company will get you to a good place. Do you have to have the biggest ever company in every category? If that's your thing, then yeah, go work harder, cruct competition, but I I would advise that that's not always a stuff that you want to do. You want to build a good company in that and that's it. I agree with you. You've speaking about building company. So you know your you have a perspective on you know the the ever famous comparison from the Netflix Valu stack about team versus family. Talk about how you think about building culture and you know what sort of attitude and spirit you want with in your employees and your team and and how you think about the concept of being on a team versus being on a family. Yeah, so I really, I really believe in that, because you know in a company you can fire someone. I don't know how many team how many family members you fired in your life, but probably not a lot, but you can. You know you can. You can not want to work with someone and that's a legitimate decision. And not. Maybe they even that. It's not that they're good or not. It might be that they're not a good fit for this, for what you're trying to build today, or the skill set or anything like that. So I think if you if you come with the family mindset and you kind of not being honest with employee what they're what they're trying, what you're trying to do, it is eventually...

...a team built for performance and and you need to kind of get to certain stages. You need to get their fast. In terms of culture, I really believe that there's people that bring energy their problem solvers. They they see big hairy problems and they don't get faced. They break it down and kind of started start chipping at them, even when it looks insane or improbable, and it just go for it and do it. And there are people that get face, that gets scared or, you know, or take energy away from the conversations. And so you want a lot of people that can just look upon the eye and kind of and kind of go for it and do it and and are smart about it and engaged and sying differently. And you want to hire the best people and truly I everyone I hire I always tell them I work for you. If I hired you, I believe that you are the best and what you're doing, for what you do from everything we've seen. And I want to just executed and go for it and if they're blockers, they come to me and let me help you figure it out, because maybe it's cross functional, maybe you need extra budget, maybe you need whatever. Let's talk about it, explain what you're trying to do and why it's important, and then me work for you and try to solve it for you. So eventually bring good people smart that that that they are not faced by problems, because it been is always going to have hairy problems, and the more senior they are, the more hairy the problems and the more and in the less input that you want to give them. You just want to, you know, eventually, a full leader. You want to just say two sentences and they go and fix it right. That's that's a magic, that's that's that's that's full leadership. But you want everyone in the org to be able to execute and solve problems persist. What do you think about? So here's my perspective on the team versus family. I generally agree with you, but also it tends to me, it seems to me most of the time, in my experience, all of the time, that people that are saying it's a team, not a family, are people that always get to be on the team because they're the CEO. And so I've always felt like, do we really need to remind people that they can be fired all the time? At least in the US, everybody knows that they can be fired. Do do you worry about sort of like reinforcing ideas that are probably obvious to a lot of people? Or have you seen that they're just certain people that kind of take advantage in a way that implies that they don't really understand the relationship between, you know, employer and employee? Yeah, I don't think there's a reason to remind people they can be fired. I just think I brought it up because the idea was that this is kind of the deal they're signing, even if it's implicit right, they know it. You don't need to remind that to them. So if you comes like you're a family, you're a family and then you know happy with them, you fired them, that's like that breaks the bond and I think if people are honest with themselves, then they would never believe fully, fully believe the family piece. You know so? I think so. Again, it's a metaphor and metaphors are not it's the map, it's not the terrain. So it I agree...

...with you. Then the met the four breaks down. Right. For example, you know, if someone's sick with Covid I, there's nothing in a contract where we need to send them a gift and make them feel happy, but of course we do. Right, so that's like that. That goes more to the family piece. I'm not obliged in the contract to send them a gift, but actually I feel for them. I am bombed. They're sick, I'm bombed. Their kids are can go to school. I so, you know, we want to do something for them and not because we were obliged or we're you know, it's part of the team. or I need to make them happy ten percent for them to perform better. We we care. So there's a lot of carrying there too. And again these are metaphors, so none should take be take to the extreme. I just think that if in the basis, in the basis of the relationship, without mentioning it, without it's known, that you can actually fire them. It's not a family and you have to be real with them about that. Else there's a bit of a bit more dishonesty in this or or misleading that I feel comfortable with. That's that's kind of what that's right. I'm my thinking is on this. That makes that makes sense to me. The I wanted to I do. We've talked a little bit about demo stack, but not a ton, and I you know you mentioned that when you started doing research, you know, there was this massive signal that poured forth. So talk about why you think the demo is so messed up and why you can use demo stack to create, you know, what we might call like intimate moments. So you know, when you sell a physical product, say I sell shoes, I can make a pair of shoes, give it to you, you, you try them out and if you like it, you you, you buy them. Digital products are complex. When someone comes to value the product, there's a thin layer that a human can can view, which is usually how they interact with the product, but there's so much complexity underneath and in order to kind of be able to showcase a product, you need to deal with that complexity. And because it's so complex, the only people that can really deal with it is Rd. so, rd so go to market people that want to tell the product story and want to showcase. It sells, people, marketing, people, partnership people, seesens when they want to showcase. It's not about just like going and showcasing the product, because they're dependent on R D and rd is always focused on customer features that they need to build. Right if if it's between the customer feature and helping a salesperson out, they always choose the customer. And so that makes it so that demos go often weary and and demos are are just hard to do because your product is not built for showcasing. That was my Uhama moment. And when I was building liquid we had that. We initially show just production and you know when we were tiny, super small, just to an intimate group of customers, but quickly they became super u unruly. You can show production because you have data in there. You have you know, you can give everyone access that analytics go hey wire and the finance team hates it. And of course if you give everyone access, they can move millions of dollars around. Ever, does it? Does it of people with admin access. It doesn't make any sense. So we initially, I thought was a small problem, and...

...we we just said, okay, let's on board Pipe Piper. Where do you tell about act me or pipe Piper for me and I can't. Second, by show ours southern pipe piper, we added Pipiper as a customer. We hack them in without a bank account, but then put the five users in from the show going. We looked at it and it was empty. It was always going to be empty because you know, it's real customer. This is going to never going to be an activity. All the graphs are flat, all the tables are empty, there's nothing in there. So and then, okay, so we need to now populated. How do you do that? We'll need to find data somewhere. Where do you have day and the real product? But that's right, the reason. We couldn't even use it. So what do we do? And so I just found myself building two products. I was kind of starting to changine put engineers more and more to kind of populate and make that Pipe Piper is saying, take data from the real place, from the real product, scramble it and shove it into that other product. And this demo account that was building was just less good than what I started with, the real the real, you know, our real product initially, and I find my Yuhamma went was I'm building two products. One is this. This other product is built for showcasing, not expense management, and it's built for a different user. And I go to market people, not my customers, and I was like amaze on how much I'm actually spent out time that was spending building it, and how many people actually see or showcasing product versus your real product? Right, because say you convert twenty percent as customers or the way, more people see your demo environment, then then they that they see the your production environment, and that kind of led me to a path. was like, okay, it doesn't make sense. Showcasing is a different use case. It requires a different product, and we start imagining how would it look like if you had a dem environment? We didn't need to say the intendo the slow today, or I wish I could show you, but you could actually actually showcase the best version of the product, celebrate the product your building. And you know what would that look like and how would that accelerate sales engagement partnerships marketing, investor, talks, all of that stuff, and when I saw that trip actions couldn't solve it, I was like, okay, this this is a was a four bill and doll company at that time. I was like, okay, they can solve it. It can others. And we again research and saw that everyone had an issue with this and everyone was kind of building a demo environment on the side, trying to kind of hat hustle something. Some engineer kind of put some the project together ages really quickly. So even if you can invest in it, it does age quickly and become and kind of slows down. We're thinking this is a unique product in what would how would that accelerate go to market if you had something that was specialized and just showcasing your product? And that's kind of what we're built. I love it, Jonathan, were we're almost at the end of our time together. I love what you said,...

...though, about you know, there's two different products, once the production product, once the showcasing product. But the thing we like to do with the end to sort of pay it forward a little bit and figure out what are the ideas? What are they? That the you could be authors, it could be investors, it could be mentors, it could be books, but when you think about the ideas that inspire you and the people that have created them and you think we should know about them, who comes to mind? Who are the people or ideas that you think we should be aware of because they've informed who you've become. Sure, on the entrepreneurship side it's Vertic Cliche, but I would, I would listen to Elon Musk. He's, I think he's the best operator on the planet bar none. You know, and I think where you seem shines is not the bits or stuff. This isn't twitter or me more or some stuff that usually goes in the news. But I mean there's a recently I've seen three and a half hours of I think it's called the every day astronaut or something like that. It's a blogger that's kind of folks on space and he went with Elon Musk and kind of toured tesla, sorry, spacex, for about three and a half hours in Elon musk talks about how he operates there and it. It's been there. That that tell you how he thinks. And you know, building a company is complex, just a digital product like them. STAG is very complex. It's very hard on a million different funds and thinking about what he does and you know how he operates, you need to be in the peak of your game and in between the lines. If you listen to him for tween a half hours and you hear about how he thinks about complexity, how he works with probably some of the most brilliant engineers in the world and still is able to get to kind of get it all together and get get stuff done fast, it's fascinating you see a genius in the field that you're operating in. You know that's My job operation, operating right, chief operating officer, and you see someone who's a genius at operating. I think that's very inspiring. And I would say on the personal front, or let's say mental health, sanity, just a good life coach or mentor. For me it's definitely Sam Harris. I love. I love is waking APP waking up APP, which is a meditation APP but but has also philosophy about life moments mindfulness. It's just built for, you know, people that want the essence of it and and you know deep essence, but stuff that that doesn't that doesn't require you to disengage your logical brain. You can keep that up and still find a lot of value in the talks, the meditations, the moments he has there. He's just a great thinker and he bought a lot of light into my life. Sorry, I really suggest listening to his talks and definitely downloading the waking up APP, which I use a lot. Awesome, Johnathan. Thanks so much for being our guest on the show this week. If folks want to reach out to you, are you open to that? Is Za preferred...

...mechanism for outreach? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, just write me at Jay at Demo staccom. I think that's the best way. Emails are things I read the most, so just Jay at Demo staccom. easy, fantastic, Johnson. Will Talk to you on Friday for Friday fundamentals, but thanks so much for being our guest on the show. Thank you. Thank you for everything, Sam, great to be here. Hey, everybody, Sam's Corner, Sam Jacobs, really love that conversation with Jonathan Friedman. Always love to hear about an origin story that really comes from somebody's deep affinity with a specific problem, and Jonathan walked us through how. You know, he just couldn't get the right information. The Demo Account always had the wrong information. They were looking at other users information, and so that's why he really ended up building demo STAC and I think he mentioned right he made a little post on a Bolton board and I got flooded with with responses and with demands, and it's really interesting how, you know, I can't remember where there was the airplane or the automobile, but you know, new technologies tend to sprout up all over the place roughly at the same time, almost as if something's in the air, something bigger, as it works, some broader universal energy, and maybe that's the case with demo creation software, because all of a sudden demo desk is one of a few different companies that are helping account reps tell the story of their business more effectively and not have to bother the engineering team, not have to borrow bother the marketing organization. In fact, the keting organization is often a customer of platforms like Demo Desk. So it's really interesting conversation. We also, of course, talked about this concept of team, not a family. You know, and and I've always said the people saying that it's a team not a family often are permanent members of the team, and that's a that's a cynical take a little bit. I understand the broad point. The broad point is that, you know, this is not unconditional. Employment is not unconditional and and we are trying to win something, we are competing and we want the best people and we want the best people to want to work hard so that they can retain their place on the team. And I see, I hear all of that. My perspective is still something about the framing stripe rubs me the wrong way, but maybe I'm just a little overly sensitive. I have been fired so many times that many, many times I've been reminded how, how clearly it is definitely not a family. It is a team. I wonder, though, sometimes if my family wanted to fire me, maybe maybe the team in the family are the same thing. Who knows? At any rate, we want to before we go. We want to thank our sponsors. We want to thank outreach. Head over to our click dot outreach do io for thirty MPC to figure out the fact a true traditional tools don't work in hybrid sales world. So outreach can help you. We're also, of course, sponsored by pavilion. There are dozens and dozens of new pavilion schools that you can access, both for yourself and for your teams. We really encourage you to check them out learn more at joint PAVILIONCOM. There's sales school, sales development school. I've got some amazing instructors, folks like Kyle Coleman and Kevin Dore See and cassie young from primary...

...ventures. It's really a unique opportunity to meet some of the best in the business that are practitioners and also have them teach you something. And of course, we're also sponsored by Flock J. Flock J help sales teams from five to five thousand do their best work by automatically capturing, tagging and sharing best practices wherever they are. So elevate your sales team. At Flock Jacom forward slash sales hacker. If you are not a part of the sales hacker community yet, you're missing out. Any sales professional can join as a member to ask questions, get immediate answers and share experiences with like minded be tob sales professionals. Jump in and start a discussion with more than seventeenzero sales professionals at sales hackercom. Thank you for listening. If you haven't given us five stars, you have, please consider doing so on the podcast listening platform of your choice, and if you want to get in touch with me, you can Sam at join Pavilioncom. Otherwise, I'll talk to you next time.

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