The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

20. How to Negotiate More Effectively to Close More Deals w/ Chris Voss

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Tune in to for expert tips on managing the sales negotiation process with Chris Voss, renowned author, and negotiation expert.

One two one te three o welcome to the sales hacker podcast.This is going to be an amazing episode. This is episode. Twenty and we've gotChris Foss author of never split the difference on the show. Chris is worldfamous at this point and an incredible insight on unnegotiating. Now we've gotnot one but two sponsors to think tha. The two sponsors that we've had for acouple weeks now, so we love their support. Thank you. The first is erecall ar calls a phone system designed for the modern sales team. One of thethings that Jeffreakers had a marketing at or call wanted me to know andmentioned, was that it's for the field team and the inside sale team. So itcan be deployed anywhere that you are because they've got great mobile,integrations they seemlessly in a great inter crm. They eluminate data entryfor your raps and they give you greater visibility into your team's performancethrough advanced reporting. So if you're rapt it's real easy to use andif you're a manager, you get insight into what's happening on the phone whenit's time to scale, you can add new lines in minutes and you use incallcoaching to reduce ramtime for your rep. O visit are called Thot io forward,sash sales tacker to see why Uber Dunam, Bradstree, pipedrive and thousands ofothers trust air call for the most critical sales conversations. Oursecond sponsor is outreached ou IO, the leading sales engagement platform soout reach triples the productivity of sales teams and empowers them to drivepredictable and measurable revenue growth by prioritizing the rightactivities and scale ing customer engagements with intelligent automation.Outreach makes customer facing teams more effective and improves visibilityinto what really drives results. Hop over to outreached out IO fordash saleshacker to see how thousands of customers, including Cloudera,glassdoor, Pandora and Zillo, rely on outrage to deliver higher revenue forsales, rap and hout. Further. Do let's listen to ChrisVos on the Sales Hacker podcast? Hey everybody! Welcome to the SalesHacker podcast! It's your host, Sam Jacobs, am the founder of the New Yorkrevenue. Collective is, hopefully you know at this point, and today we've gotsomebody that I'm incredibly excited about. We've got Chris Faschris is theauthor of never split the difference which has been. I was mentioningoffline to Chris at this point, one of the sort of standard reading texts fornegotiation in the sales community. Chris is formerly an FBI hostagenegotiator and he's the founder and principle of the Black Swan Group,which is the consulting and Professional Services Organization thatChris started to deploy some of the strategies and tactics that hearticulates and never split the difference out to the rest of theglobal community. So Chris Welcome and thank so much for your time. Mypleasure same thanks for ever me on absolutely so to some people, yourhousehold name and to others you may not be so. It would be really helpful.I think for our for our listeners to hear a little bit about your backgroundand sort of go back to some of the experiences in the FBI as a hotasenegotiator that prompted the writing of the book, never split the difference.Sure yeah I mean originally. I know my accent doesn't sound like it, but I'm asmall town, Guy Fror Myowa son of Richard Joyce, Vosse mom, Pleasan Iowa,the building I worked in in New York City had more people in it than thetime I grew up in wow. How did you find your way from Iowa to New York City?You know kind of I remember my hometown newspaper Askd me that question when Iwas back for a high school reunion an number years ago, and you know thejourneyis so complicated. I just said you know. Basically you go up tointerstate eighty and you make a right thereare, a number of pitt stops and and roadblocks on theway. What was the experience that got you into the FBI originally and whenwas when? Was that happening? Well, I was, I was police offs in Canc CityMissouri. My father started to encourage me to look at federal lawenforcement because he had just paid for college degree and I went out andgot a job. They didn't need one,...

...and so you know s, he was he. I thinkit finally accepted. I was going to stay in law enforcement, and so we thought well federal must bemore prestigious, more challenging. You know whatever the outside. His view is, and heencouraged me to look at the secret service and they weren't hiring, butthe guy that I spoke to the service said. You know I travel all over theworld with a secret service and you know I grew up in Iowa. I mean I'd seen,Canada. That was the extent of my international trials, so the thought ofpeople paying to let me go all over the world. Soundup pretty cool and I didn'tknow one federal law enforcement agency. From the other, I saw an article in aPapor, the FPI was hiring, I went down and they had a big hiring push. And tenmonths later I was in, and so you started as a special agent.Is that accurate- and I guess how did you find your way from entering the FBIto becoming a hostage negotiator into being in some of those sort of highpressure situations? Yeah, you know okay. So if you're, if you sworn lawenforcement, a defense attorney's favorite questionwas specialas involse. What makes you special so we had to understand. Tha An agentis somebody who's not authorized to carry a gun and aspecial agent goods tocarry Agun Wow, and so the FPI only has special agents, and so you start out asa special asent and everybody does and then you mightpick up an additional duty. There number things you could pick up, youcould be a swat guy originally was a swat guy was on tha FPI SWAT thing. Youcould become a hotstage and go shit. Ye could be a bom tech, you beingundercover, there's that's kind of the extent of it. I started out on Swad, Ireinjured an old knee injury from my college days, and I realize thatinstead of continuing to blow my knee out training, which is how I did it,you know I know we had hotags to go shitters they respond along with theSwat guys. I thought you know it'd be cool. I could try that how hard couldit be talking to terrorist? How hard could that be? You know that's that', just short ofthe red nexts famous last words of hey watch this right. How hard could it be? How ar g waitedwell, you would find out how hard was it it was so hard? No, you know it wasACTUALLG was in depth. I mean there was so much more. It's emotionalintelligence is what it is: The application of emotional intelligencein the study of ident diving deep into it, and it was more satisfying that Swad ever was and- andI love being on the Swat. Take don't give me wrong. That's a cool gig ATS,an adrenalind high on a regular basis, but there was there's somethingeminently satisfying about doing something with your words. Justyour words getting people to completely turn around what they're doing and howmany years did you do that? Well, I was an FPIGENT for tota twentyfour years and basically the last irget trained as a hostage EGOSIAT inone thousand nine hundred and ninety two. So to two thousand and seven but tyou know you doing I sort of different levels. I mean first, you start out asa negotiator, an a field office with it as an additional duty, and then I wasput in charge of the came in New York City. I was, I became a member of theteam in New York and then was put charge of the team and it was thefactor, a fulltime job when I took over the team, but it wasn't technically andthen every agency's negotiators are pretty much do it as an additional duty.I hate to use it term part time because that diminishes it, but then theyalways have a cool group of full timers in the FPI full time negotiators Arquonicl the MISTICO Canico a I got transferred there and I spent the lastseven years in my career. Doing nothing but hosstage an go shag wow, so youmention a number of different. I think ever every chapter almost starts withsort of like a description of a...

...specific instance, and then it relaysthe lessons back from that instance. What were what were sort of one or twoof your most representative or most interesting situations that you canshare with the audience? Well, you know I talkearly on in the book. I talkedabout a hostage taking at the Chase Manhattan Bank in Brooklyn, and eventhough bank robberies, wire, hostages and negotiation happens in every lawenforcement movie. In reality, they only happen in the entire country, butonce every twenty years bank ribbers make it a point to get out of therebefore they get trapped. That's why there's almost never a negotiation Soin,the one that I did in New York. It had been twenty years since Wene Hav beendone in New York, wow and but you show up a certain amount of expectations, isshow up and expect the people that are trapped in a bank to be a littlerattled, that it wasn't their plan to get caught in the bank and this guythat we negosiated with initially N, and there were two of them inside hewas actually the prototype of the great CEO negotiator and what makes me saythat a great influencal see you on negotiate if they go to the table atall, they're going to hide their influence, the' only use plural pronounso'll talk about you know. I got a team, my board, AF directors, those guys I'veaccountable to them. You know I'm not really in charge. You know it's. Theboard of therectors are it's a tactic, one person and business once who Ertold me was referring to people that are not in the room? Will this bankrobber from the very beginning he was like I'm, you know these other guys aremore dangerous. Han Me. I'm actually scared of the guys. I don't know what they're goingto do.He was in charge. He was driving a whole situation, but he was smartenough to hide his influence when he was talking to us was what a great cowldo this guy was. This guy was so calm that he literally said the firstnegotiator on the phone with him was a PD ganam Joe who was a great negotiator,and he literally says to Joe I'm the calmest one here alike, who we talkingto on the other side. What is going on? He was just he was a smart, shrewdgreat grosiat. So when you show up in those situations, obviously I mean thegoal: Writ Large is obviously get everybody out of there safely evits,but the difference right, exactly and and- and I guess- arrest the bad guys.But how do you get from just showing up on the scene with a phone call or atelephone in your hand to that outcome? What are some of the key strategies?Some people say? What's the diferent doin business negotiation and hostasecegotiation, and one of my answers is in business negotiations. People get alot more upset than they ever doing. HOS Sit to go ses. If you can imagine that yeah, so we USA Etirein a hostage negotiation.Well, the stiaks a much higher, so you would expect people to be more upsetright yeah. How are they less upset? Your question was: What is a strategy?Our strategy from the very beginning is we know with our tone, OL voice. We cantake charge without the other side, knowing it and in hosteg negotiation.We referred to e as the late Night FM DJ VO. Why are we hearing it right now,wow? I would never tat on you and this degoteui would do that to you. I've been wanting to hear invipracticeby a master the late night up m DJ voice. Since I read the book, so I'msor that was beautiful helittle I aotit yeah. What does the tonality do? Howdoes it? HOW DOES IT INFLUENCE THE COUNTER PARTY? It hits their marineraseverybody's got in. There had something which we refere to as Marinera, so youhit somebody's maranons if they can either hear you or see you and with thelate night fmdj voice, what it does is it reaches and aflips a Switchin, aMare and theron that actually slows the brain down and we thought it wascalming people down, but we didn't...

...realize it was calming them down byslowing them down and that's why people don't Yel, letHossat to go shitters because hige go shitter, it's an involuntary responsor!You CAN'T! You cannot block me from hitting you mar in their ons now youcan fight the reaction, but you can't stop me from starting the reaction andI can change how fast your brain moves and consequently we now know aneuroscience. I can actually affect the chemicals that your body is releasinginto your brain than impacts. You'R thinking face on my tone of voice. Ifyou can see me or if you can hear me, I can hit you mar an neons and I canbegin to hit them before. I finish my first sentence: Wow so job one when youshow up on the scene. Obviously, everybody's rattled first thing is toslow everything down and to start triggering those marineurons is thatAcara yeah you slow it down and the other side doesn't know you're doing it.That's the key to it because you don't want to engage in an overt a waste oftime, we're an overt stalling tack tactic. You went the other side to feellike they're in control. You don't want them to know you're in control thesecret, the Gan in the upper hand, and the negotiations Givin, the other sideF, the illusion of Control, and so we want to stablish the upper hand, whilethe other side feels like they're in control, which is the essence of everygreat hotess egotiation every great business negotiation. So the essence ismaking them feel like they're in control, but then what are some of thebeyond just tone of voice? What are the other strategies that you employ? Iguess the other question I have, which is, which is a broader question. Is Youknow? What's your overall philosophy to negotiation? Are you sort of like awinwin kind of person where you say, let's find the outcome that everybodywins from or is? I would assume that maybe you'd have a different point ofview and then from there I would love to know like whate of the tactics thatyou used to get there. Well, I tweet that a little bit because I'm liral theterminology, Wen Wen, for two reasons: Number One people try really hard topractice when, when often get cheered like sheep and they gain sheered by the the throatcutter on the other side, because that's wo kind of well say you knowwhat let's have a in win deal like. I know my experience is the soonersomebody says when Wen to me the sooner they mean I want to win everything. They're GOINGNA high anchor they'retrying to get me to drop my guard by seeming to be collaborate. So if you'repracticing it there's a Rugat and you're thinking that you there's reagood chance, you'r vulnerable if you're saying it you're, probably a shark. NowI do want to create a better deal than either side ever imagined. You know Iwant you to get stuff out of this. That you're delighted by. I also want to geta lot for me. I just you know. The delightful stuff is not necessarily atmy expense or at your expense. There's always there's always a better deal,there's always a better deal and because people are always hidingstuff. I mean I when we're training training negotiations. I said you everbeen a negotiation where you weren't, holding t e information back andpeoplew say like no. No, of course you know, there's always stuff fhold back.Of course we always have vulnerabilities, but if you're holdingI holding it back, that means it's valuable and if you're always holdingstuff back, that means the other side is too, which means you don't know onthe stuff that I'm hiding n the stuff that you're hiding there's an overlapon those hidden areas. That could be phenomenal if we can get to them. Ifyou're willing to accept that, there's always a better deal at the table andso I've always my overrigten goal is to uncover the best possible deal and thendecide if I want to make it. So that's what I'm really trying to do, I'mtrying to get you I'm trying to get you to trust me for good reason, notbecause I'm trying to Hart Shit, but I need to know what you're hiding and ifI can find out what you're hiding we can come up with a better deal andyou're going to love it. What are the...

...tactics you use to figure out what people are hiding well and soyou're asking me: What's the what's the information gathering process, becauseinformation gathering is critical and we're all taught we have to gatherinformation. The problem is, we think we have to gather information, biasingquestions and that the most effective way to gather information only about athird of the time, because, if something about the questioning processthat causes the other side to raise their guard, so we train people to beable to toggle back and forth between well calibrated questions. You knowwhat we refer to as calibrated quoitions or principally what and howquestions. First of all, I n even bother with yes at all. Yes is the mostuseless answer that anybody could ever give you, because its three kinds of ysis commitment. Confirmation, counterfeit people are so used tobeingtrapped by the confirmation. Yes, if they real good at counterfeit es, socounterfeit, yes, is just a lie. Count for GES is a lie. I know you're tryingto trap me, so I'm going to say yes, because I want to hear what you have tosay: okay, it's the geyin talking, because most people are yes addicts andthey hear the word yes and then they start running off wat the mouth wer.You Know Ha Jim camp, who wrote start with no used to call it spilling thebeads people. Just if they hear yes, theystart to spill te beans. I don't bother with it, because people are so good atcounterfeit, yes and then also, yes, is nothing without how even if you'regiving me legitimate yes by itself, it doesn't mean a thing unless I get howso why do? I even bother with the s when I need have so I'm going to getI'm going to go to how and what Ar my caligated questions principally what'sgoing on here. How do we proceed? What matters to you stuff like that? But nowthe problem is what happens if they don't like questions or they can't givegood answers, actually need to trigger some unguarded responses. That's whatour whole design of labels is. You Ou label is designed to trigger thinkingand get an unguarded answer. Let me give you an example: A company wirecoaching is in a construction business recently. They sense that there's oneor two executives on the other side of the table that are not at the table butare causing problems. Let's call these executives, Joe and Bob they could sayyou know what are the obstacles here. You know who's on board from your team.They could ask a whole series of questions or what they did was e usedto label, and they said it seems like Joe and Bob are the IBSTRUCTIONS andthe immediate involuntary response from the other side was now. It's not jotsBob. So the label hits people and it's an observation, and particularly ifyour observation is slightly off, people love to correct and you want toget an honest unguarded answer, you're most likely to get it in a correctionbecause people, if I'm correcting you I'm safe, I'm secure, I'm superior, I'msmarter than you and when I feel all of those things is when I'm most likely totell you the truth, because I'm I don't have my guard up and TAT's when peoplesay no, it's not joit's Bob because it triggers their feelings of superiority,which then cause them to tell the truth. Now, that's information gathering, butnot asking a question so is: Would you say that sort of like the labelingprocess, you mentioned that questions specifically how UNWAT, whichecalibrated questions theare about one third of the information gatheringprocess? Is these other techniques like labeling? Would that be the balance ofthe two thirds yeah? If we're really an information gathering, I'm going toprobably switch over and use a lot more labels to trigger your answers than Iam Goinna use, questions I'll use, an occasional question. You know I mayreally design a question such that if you have a goal- and I have a goal I'llsay you want accant- I want why nd I'm goingto say well. How am I supposed togive you wife? I don't get ax one of...

...the things in sales we talk about or Italk about is this need for approval construct, which isjust a way of saying. Sometimes, people are selfconscious about offending thecounter party, they're self, conscious about asking a question that isperceived to be too aggressive or to salesy. When you ask a labelingquestion, I imagine that one part of the emotional response from the otherside could potentially be emotional in nature. Saying like no way man, you gotit all wrong. So how do you manage the emotional temperature in the room asyou're in the information gathering process? That's a great question andone of the things about labels is that automatically helps manage thattemperature is. If a label gives you the option, respond, you don't feelbackd into a corn. You know if I make a label. Ot is observation, as you thinkabout it. You decide whether or not you want to respond. Having an optionpreserves your autonomy increases the chance you're going to respond camps,books start with no, the entire premise of that book was give people theirautonomy and are more likely to cooperate. His idea, O start with nowas not actually what we do, which is intentionally triggered now. His ideawas sit down with a counterpart and he had a lot of sales experience and hewould set out by saying, like look, you say no at anytime. I want you to knowthat you could anytime that you say no to me. I am happy to stop and go away,and he said Y. He called his definition. Negotiation was given the other side,the right to veto, and this was giving the other sid the right to Veco theright to say no right away and he found from his experience hat as soon as yougave people the right to say. No, they were more likely to say yes as soon asyou give hem options, they don't feel backed into a corner. Their autonomy ispreserved, the more likely to cooperate. So that's e design of the label. Thelabel, if I say you know, seems like Joe with Tom. My you know, Joan Babathe problems here, I'm not asking you for an answer. So if you give me ananswer, it's completely at your afh and you're more likely to answer because Ipreserved your atonomet, you feel respected. You feel appreciated. Youfeel in charge. I'm triggering all these emotions simultaneously, becausethey're always there and they're always affecting what you're thinking is itway.Would you say that stage? One essentially is I information gatheringand once you feel like you have the right amount of information. What's theprocess by which, within a negotiation, you move from having the information todeploying that information successfully to achieve to your point, a betteroutconfroll of the participants. I telllet me ask you question of Whilwe're getting into this because we haven't had this conversation, but Igot. I have a feeling that I thinking is the same. You said Stage one, howmany stages do typically see in the life cycle of an interaction, but thatis a good question. You know if we're talking about my world is the world ofsales and in the life cycle of that interaction, which might be like a salecycle, there's probably discovery which is sort of e. The similar toinformation gathering then there's sort of presentation, then there's kind oflike negotiation, and then there's closure another's little microsteps inbetween procureman and legal and things like that. But I say generally aboutfour or five okayright right so, somewhere more than one somewhere lessthan five right, yeah, exactly all right. So the number we swag scientific,wildass guess all right. You know and you got tounderstand it's a technical, tirents, Yo Gtteyyou more for a technical term.You know, if you say, Swao, that's that's tha higher day right right.There yeah there you go right and you know the difference. Beween, you know,there's a wagon there's a sweat, so the swag is some data point thatyou're using to anchor the the rit right, TATS CAS wil, thats gas, an ascientific, wild, tats again right. So but the you know tit's interesting,I mean so we see about three like F and the first time that I started seeingthis dynamic of three, because in the...

...book we talk about the ackermenbargaining technique and it's based on three round Abarga to cot close the deal- and you know I see this in humanbehavior- it's a Cliche, but if you're dating, if you're dating and the Dati isgetting serious, what o people start to expect to have happened on about thethird day? They expect to make love with each other intimacy right yeah, but about along about the third day right,yeah, three round of bargaining. We do a lot of work in real estate advisingpeople in real estate. What happens when people looking at houses firsttime to go out and they see a house they kind of blown away. They love it.You know they're, really interested a really estate agent. That expects anofl front on a first fiew of a HOUSIS wrong. Every reallestate Agan knows thesecond time to take the buyer out to see the house. Now the byis going tostart to see all the flaws, the stuff that they miss from the blown away bythe initial curbebile on the first visit. If they want that by to make anoffer, they can't stop there because in a second the second visit, they saw theflog they got to go out and they o got to see the third time and that's whenthey expect to have an offer to be made. So it's this interesting dynamic, youknow- and your guess was actually what you laid out in your four or five firstfirst couple, things would take place in a first state. You also said thatyou realize that there were sort of smaller portions in each stage, whichis why I think you were you went to like four to five depends upon whereyou're going to Luve stuff in we're going to look for this dynamic of threein our interaction. So we're going to try to do in the first is theinformation gathering phrase and then we're expecting problems in around thesecond phase. Second Phases: When you getting down to business but don't LookTho close before you getting on to about the third phase and, if you'renot making a lot of progress by the third phase, where, if you're not goingto close your, you feel like you're, closed to clothes and you'R, nowwasting your time so information gathering, then it's sort of the secondphase would be the exposure of the flaws or maybe the first phase is sortof innocent optimism than the second is realism. And then the third is comingto coming together to form a more perfect union. Exactly now. What weleft with are we going to consummate very good Toi, didn't know you know Ididn't. I didn't pick that term for deals. Everybody talks aboutconsummating deals, don't they yeah well, it makes a lot of sense whenyou're out there I mean so you left. The FBI is two thousand and seven. Isthat right? Yes, and did you form the Black Swan Group immediately after andyou know, you've been consulting mentioned real estate. So what are someof the clients that you work with, and I guess my big question is you've comeinto so many different kinds of negotiations, I'm sure there's one twoor three sort of top glaring mistakes that people generally make in thecontext of a negotiation that you wish they would stop. So what are those keymistakes that, if we all just stop doing that we'd all be better off yeah? Okay, all right! So, first partof that you know I left the FPI went back to school as got a master'sdegree, is a way to sort of transition out AF government service and a privateservice. It's kind of like it's kind of going into witness security program fora little. While I need I needed a buffer yeah. I couldn't just leave thegovernment without some sort of protection, and then I finded the BlackSwan group sort of all at the same time. But although I technically foundedBlack Swan Group in two thousand and eight, we didn't really try to get busylater in the year and then I started teaching in at Harvard and that atGeorgetown business negotiation, almost right away, which helped us develop thedoctor and then also the great thing about teaching in in a business school.Is you got people from every aspect of...

...business, but you get a roadtest eSkillsan. It's a laboratory, and you know I made almost all my students were part time,which means they work during the day they had real jobs in every industry,every ethnicity, Poof, a concept was whether they were in government service,where they woere in real estate, whether they manage high wealthindividuals, if you're getting a business degree, we get the teach inevery aspect of business and we find out that that a worked, an every fieldthat worked with every ethnicity, the same the same most on the touch andskills walked across the board. So one Ofe the biggest mistakes people makebeing yes addics. You know the yes momentum or yesible agreements, somomenttum selling, so that- and that specifically means sort of like askinga bunch of questions that it's very easy for the counter party to say yesto those yeses are likely counterfeit yeses or some other kind of ris. Theydon't tell enough, and so you're sort of lulled into this idea thateverything's going great but you're missing huge pieces of information.It's not going great is that yeah and I think it's a single biggest destroyerof relationships. I think it's. If anybody out there's got people that arenot getting back to them, which we refer to as nonresponders. You got anon responder you've been trying to yes, trapel you might have. Even then youmight have even been engaged in this yes process, not trying to triapl. Imean you just trying to confront, but your laying out argument. You know youknon tell what your goals are so from. I understand your goal is this x I meanother people have used that same phrase to trap: People Everybody begins toback away, it's the biggest roder of trust and a relationship. The constantuse of yes, so, for example like would you say this is a problem that you faceand then the person says yes and then you sort of check a little box thinkingthat you're you've made some progress when in fact, you've probably hurtyourself yeah you've just done something that has caused them tomistrust you, because the Snake Oi selemen did that and trap them. Youknow the old saying once bitten, twice shy or another example of that is oncebitten by a snake, you're afraid of ropes. Hadn't heard that one, but very good,okay, yeah, you know, are you you try to hug a batter child that Batter Childis going to flinch, even though you meant Toogo, I mean you can't changethe fact that everybody you deal with is already yes batterd and getting outof that is going to give is going to be a huge plus up to start with, and thenthe other thing is since so many people want the deal I think not getting dealsis the biggest cancer on people's time that everybody is faced with, like wespend so much more time. Now diagnosing whether not there's a deal there and wedidn't even put it in the book as much because I didn't realize how big theproblem was until we've gotten out here and we've been working much more withbusiness people crossing board salespeople, there's a saying in sales,it the sin, isn't not getting the deal. The sin is to take a long time to notget the deal yeah. Maybe no response is the worst answer and know is yes is thebest response to now is the second best, and nothing at all is terrible. Yeahand that's that's that's. I was talking to the Co very large security from justyesterday and he said my sales people. I ask him when something is going toclose. I ask him if somethingis going to close- and they say yeah it's goingto clubs and ask him when they say I don't know, then he looked at me and hsaid if they say I don't know they're lying to themselves, I gotto get hem tostop lying to themselves. I said: Well, your promise, you people yes addictedand an is yes addiction. They're getting caught in these endless loopsof never they've got some negotiations deals sales on their books that they'vegot listed is going to close, and it's Nevergon a club what's wrong with that.What's wrong with that is every minute...

...they waste on that deal is keeping themfrom deals that they could close. That is a very common piece of feedback forsales people and, of course, the counterargument or the problem is maybethey don't have enough deals to feel to feel confident about about letting afew go, because then, then they have to face with he the gaps ind the pipelineyeah, that's a scary place to be, and so many people are in that position andthe idea of cutting off the opportunity, but there's noopportunity there and what we seen on a regular basis. The sooner people getout of those deals that never close the sooner they get into deals that willclose, but you can't feel that at the time hope its supposed to be a goodword hope well, take you hostage, and so many people as a hostage of hopethat it's killing. Let me ask you different question so hostagenegotiation and a lot of your negotiation is face to face. You knowto people at Maor or it's it's at least using powor the voice. So it's on thephone or its face to face, but email and kind of written communication issuch a massive part of how sales is conducted these days and a lot of theaudience out there. That's listening to this. They do a lot of work over email,and so I guess the question is how many ofthese strategies are specific to you know, for example, you could ask abunch of calibrating questions and you could do a bunch of labeling but doinglabeling over email from I don't know my assumption. Is it Wuld be lesseffective? So how do you have to modify thes strategy if at all, when you'reusing written communication, which is a syncerness which is the personreceiving it can respond whenever they feel like it? Not In that moment yeah?It's a that's, a great question and he's this is the other thing that sortof stuns me and stuns everybody when they take a step back and look at it isthe things that everybody does while simultaneously detesting having it doneto them. Like you get along email. Do you read that baby? I do not right andhow many people send long emails. Many many people still do nearly everybodywho hates getting along emails. Sansam- and you know the analogy that I usethat we like to use, is if you were playing chess over them through viaemail. Would you put your next seven moovs and one email? No, because the the player on the otherside is going to look at all those mowes decide which ones they don't likeand then go off on a tangent on whacever one of those moves you don'tlike and that's that's what's the problem with laying out everything inan email, so you can use these strategies if you just use them one ata time and an ego break your emails down, make actual progress. Well, I'min a Har. I can't do that. I don't have time to send seven emails, so I'drather spend a half an hour. Writing one email that will never get respondedto right. Yeah, I mean when you lay it outlike that. It's certainly the logic is, is compelling and irrefutable, as theysay: Yeah it's nuts, but everybody's so guilty of that. So so yeah, this stuffis transferrable an email first, you brink it down to small bites and,secondly, then realizing simultaneously that emails always come off either muchcolder or more more harsh than a voice. You had in your head when you Rotehem,so you add in yead in a couple of other things, to lighten the email up and inthe super counterintutive thing that we teach people is most people open their email withsomething positive than get down the business. Now the last impression is alasting impression, so write your email put a couple things in it and whateverwonderful positive thing you opened with take it copy and pasted and put itat the end of the because that's going to be what resonates in the reader'smind if you've written a short email,...

...they'll get to the end and the lastimpression is a lasting impression, which means it sets up your nextinteraction. Do you take your wonderfully positive greeting and putit at the end, and maybe start your email was saying, like look, I'm goingto get right down to business here boom one or two things and then the end isyou know your family? Has Your kids, you watch a ball game last night or Ilike, I, like you, know, integrity and positivity at the end of the email. Ifyou're emailing somebody you're hoping you can do great business together andthat's a great last line of your email, I'm really hoping we make a great deal.This email was designed so that we have a longterm, prosperous relationship andit's going to be utterly true and utterly positive and the other sideisgoing to love it and it's a great way to end that's a great, very specifictip. It's been awesome talking to you, Chris, the so, if I were to summarize,but again, I just want to make sure that the folks out there most importantthing that anybody can do is go on. Is Amazon, your preferred bookseller geoebest price on Amazon I buy, I buy my Bolkon, you buy it three times a day,just to make sure it stays up there exactly. The book is called, neversplit. The difference. Chris Faus is the author. If we were to summarize,you know the overall strategy when we say never split the difference. Tell usin your words what that means and and also I've got another another resourceI like to share with everybody to before we get that yeah absolutely, butyou know never spit the difference. The countertutov part of that two is theother side, might have a better idea than you do so. Never sput thedifferences be willing to completely hear the other side out, and you knowdon't let your ego get so attached to what you want that it causes yourfailure, which is a paraphrase of a colon powl saying from way back whenyou know the other side might be right, flitting the difference. Example weUSIN A book. I got on a suit, I don't know whether were brown, shoes or blackshoes, so I spit the difference I put on one black and one ine. The blendingof two different ideas is so often a bad idea. You know theblending of two different ideas is like you're trying to design a horse. Youneed a horse, you end up with a Giraffe, that's SPLINTIN, the difference. Youknow it just doesn't work out so be willing to hear the other side out. Ifyou project that you're open to their ideas, you're going to be stunned andhow much more open to your ideas, they will be. It's the old cove advice of Sek firstto understand, then be understood. That' said, covery was a mercenary. Hedidn't want to understand the other side. First, because he was a nice guy,he wanted to understand first because he want to get his point across. So howdo you do that? You actually show the other side that you understand nd,showing that you're open to their ideas, feed their ideas back to them summarizeand let them know that you heard him out that Hem know you understood.That's when you get your point across. That's when you get your deals, I loveit wise words. So what you've mentioned another resource? Besides your book,what we we going to say, you know I get tell you, we put out a weeklynewsletter called the edge and it's free. It's complementary. I had acolleague of mine at the FBI, Federal Government employeeusd to like to say:If it's free, I'll, take threee there, you go, I love it. So how do yousign up for the edge the easiest ways to sent Tia text? We got a text to signup function. You text the the message. FBI, empathy, all one word yourautocorrect is going to want to make it two words make sure it's one word. FPIempathy send that text to the number wo two eight two, eight again, the numbertwenty two eight twenty eight you get a dialogue box and that news letter comesout once a week, its short and sweet. It's Tuesday mornings, it teas you upit's kind of like a warmup for the day. It's also the gateway to our websiteand their training announcements Ini...

...there there's information about freematerial. It'll. Take you right to the website when you, whenever you need towhich is black swone ltdcom. But if you subscribe to the edge, that's thegateway to everything. So that's you're preferred. If people want to get intouch with you, you prefer they subscribe to the Gh by tech by texting.FBI. Empathy. All one word to two two, eight two eight said ACCURA exactlyperfect right. Chris. Thank you so much forparticipating. I think the book has been has had a big impact on the salescommunity. You've had a big impact and- and we love the lessons that you'reteaching us Ho thanks very much o Polisis t sane thanks for having reontake care. This is Sam's corner was, was prettyawesome to be able to talk to Chris Foss, the author of never split thedifference in the founder of the Black Swan Group. Listen to Chris and sign upfor his newsletter. I think he said you can text FBI, empathy to two to eigt.Two eight and you'll get a response, which is a very two thousand andeighteen way of signing up for newsletter. But here's the thing thatthere's a number of great things that that Chris articulated in this podcastand I would I would definitely encourage everybody to go, read thebook, which is awesome, but one of the things that that I really liked aboutwhat he said is just the concept of yes. The word yes, as as a response toquestion that you're asking being a negative thing, not a positive thing,because you're going to get counterfeit, yes is you're going to get peoplesaying yes, when they don't really mean it you're, going to assume if you're anew salesperson you're going to assume that everything's moving according toyour plan when in fact, you're just getting a response, people areconditioned to provide to help move along in the conversation, and so whathat Chris suggests is using calibration questions like how ar what and thenusing labeling, which is making specific statements and then lettingthe audience react to them. But the word yes is often not very helpful. Sowhen you'v E, when you've got when you're in a sales conversation andyou're hearing yes, a lot, don't get what Dave Curlin likes to call happyears, don't just assume that everything's going to go perfectly usedifferent types of questions to get to the right answer. Chris mentioned a book written by JimCamp called the power of no that's another sort of reference that Chrisprovided and everybody can check out that book as well. But the point isthat I don't just assume everything's moving according to plan when you hearthat word. Yes, because often the word no can be even more powerful. This hasbeen Sam's corner thanks. So much for listening to check out the show, notes, seeupcoming guests and play more episodes from our incredible lineup of salesleaders, visit sales, hackercom and head to the podcast cap. You'll findthe podcast on itunes or goope play or a FI. I think anywhere that you findpodcasts you'll find our podcast and if you enjoy this episode, please sharewith your peers on linked in twitter or elsewhere. If you want to get in touchwith me, find me on twitter at Sam, if Jacobs, Wereon, Linkdon at linkdoncomand Sam f Jacobs, if you want to learn more about what we're doing at the NewYork revenue collective, go to nyc revenue, dotnet and there's a lead formthat you can fill out, and you can also email me if you want to learn moreabout Thehavox, which is the company where, during the day, I am the chiefrevenue officer fact Thi' during the day during the night, during theafternoons and at any time that I'm needed for behavox big shout out to our sponsors. For thisepisode. Air Call Your advance car center software, complete businessphone and context and Aue hundred percent natively integrated into anySRUM and outreach. A customer engagement platform that helpsufficiently and effectively engage prospects to drive more pipeline andclosed. More deals. I'll see you next time.

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