The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

20. How to Negotiate More Effectively to Close More Deals w/ Chris Voss

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Tune in to for expert tips on managing the sales negotiation process with Chris Voss, renowned author, and negotiation expert.

One, two, one, three, three. Welcome to the sales hacker podcast. This is going to bean amazing episode. This is episode twenty and we've got Chris Fosse, authorof never split the difference, on the show. Chris's world famous at thispoint and an incredible insight on negotiating. Now we've got not one but twosponsors to thank, the two sponsors that we've had for a couple weeks now, so we love their support. Thank you. The first is air call. Air Calls a phone system designed for the modern sales team. One ofthe things that Jeff Freakers, had a marketing at air call, wanted meto know and mention was that it's for the field team and the inside salesteam. So it can be deployed anywhere that you are, because they've gotgreat mobile integrations. They seemlessly integrate into your crm, they eliminate data entryfor your reps and they give you greater visibility into your team's performance through advancedreporting. So if you're wrapped, it's real easy to use and if you'rea manager, you get insight into what's happening on the phone. When it'stime to scale, you can add new lines in minutes and you use incallcoaching to reduce ramp time for your Reps. so visit are called dot io forwardsales hacker to see why Uber, Dun and Brad Street, pipe,drive and thousands of others trust are call for the most critical sales conversations.Our second sponsor is outreached. Out ioh the leading sales engagement platform. Sooutreach triples the productivity of sales teams and empowers them to drive predictable and measurablerevenue growth by prioritizing the right activities and scaling customer engagements with intelligent automation.Outreach makes customer facing teams more effective and improves visibility into what really drives results. Hop over to outreach DOT IO for out sales hacker to see how thousandsof customers, including cloud era, glass door, Pandora and Zillo, relyon outreach to deliver higher revenue or sales. Wrap and without further ado, let'slisten to Chris Foss on the sales hacker podcast. Hey, everybody,welcome to the sales hacker podcast. It's your host, Sam Jacobs. I'mthe founder of the New York revenue collective, as hopefully you know at this point, and today we've got somebody that I'm incredibly excited about. We've gotChris Foss. Chris is the author of never split the difference, which hasbeen, I was mentioning offline to Chris at this point, one of thesort of standard reading texts for negotiation in the sales community. Chris is formallyan FBI hostage negotiator and he's the founder and principle of the Black Swan Group, which is the consulting and Professional Services Organization that Chris started to deploy someof the strategies and tactics that he articulates and never split the difference out tothe rest of the global community. So, Chris, welcome and thanks so muchfor your time. By pleasure say thanks for having me on. Absolutelyso, to some people your household name and to others you may not be. So it would be really helpful, I think, for our for ourlisteners, to hear a little bit about your background and sort of go backto some of the experiences in the FBI as a hotsta negotiator that prompted thewriting of the book never split the difference. Sure, I mean I originally Iknow my accent doesn't sound like it, but I'm a small town guy fromIowa, son of Richard Joyce, boss my unpleasant Iowa. The buildingI worked in in New York City had more people in it than the townI grew up. Wow, how did you find your way from Iowa toNew York City? You know, kind of remember my hometown newspaper asked methat question when I was back for a high school reunion and number of yearsago. And you know, the journey is so complicated. I just said, you know, basically you go up to interstate eighty and you make aright. There are a number of pit stops and and roadblocks on the way. What was the experience that got you into the FBI originally, and whenwas when was that happening? Well, I was I was police officer inKan City, Missouri. My father started to encourage me to look at federallaw enforcement because he had just paid for college degree and I went I gota job that didn't need one, and...

...so you know, he was heI think it finally accepted I was going to stay in law enforcement and sowe thought, well, federal must be more prestigious, more challenging. Youknow, whatever the outsiders view is. And he encouraged me to look atthe secret service and they weren't hiring. But the guy that I spoke tothe service said, you know, I traveled all over the world with asecret service and you know I grew up, but Iwa I mean I I'd seencandidate that was the extent of my international travels. So the thought ofpeople paying a let me go all over the world sounder pretty cool. AndI didn't know one federal law enforcement agency from the other. I saw anarticle in a paper the FBI was hiring. I went down and they had abig hiring push and ten months later I was in. And so youstarted as a special agent. Is that accurate? And I guess how didyou find your way from entering the FBI to becoming a hostage negotiator, intobeing in some of those sort of high pressure situations? Yeah, you know. Okay. So if you're if your sworn law enforcement, a defense attorney'sfavorite question was special agent loss. What makes you special? So we hadto understand that an agent is somebody who's not authorized to carry a gun anda special agent gets to carry a gun. Wow, and so the API onlyhas special agents, and so you start out as a special agent,and everybody does, and then you might pick up an additional duty. Therenumber of things you could pick up. You could be a swat guy.Originally was a swat guy. was on an FPI s Wat Ting. Youcould become a hostage nego shitty could be a bomb tech. You being undercover. This that's kind of the extent of it. I started out in Swat. I reinjured an old knee injury from my college days and I realize thatinstead of continuing to blow my knee out training, which is how I didit, you know, I knew we had hostage to go shatters. Theyrespond along with the Swat guys, I thought, you know, I'd becool. I could try that. How hard could it be, talking toterrorist? How hard could that be? You know, that's that's just shortof the rednecks famous last words of Hey, watch this right. How hard couldit be? How I could wait, will you would find out. Howhard was it? It was so hard? No, you know,it was actually was in depth. I mean it was so much more.It's emotional intelligence, is what it is. The application of emotional intelligence and astudy of it and diving deep into it and it was more satisfying thenswat ever was. And and I love being on the swat tape, don'tget me wrong, that's a cool gig atsent adrenaline high on a regular basis. But there was something eminently satisfying about doing something with your words, justyour words, getting people to completely turn around what they're doing. And howmany years did you do that? Well, I was an Impi j'T for totaltwenty four years and basically the last I get trained as a host hastogotiate in one thousand nine hundred and ninety two, so to two thousand andseven. But that you know, you do it a sort of different levels. I mean first you start out as a negotiator in a field office withit as an additional duty, and then I was put in charge of theteam in New York City. I was I became a member of the teamin New York and then was put in charge of the team and it wasthe fact that will full time job when I when I took over the team, but it wasn't technically. And then every agency's negotiators are pretty much doit as an additional duty. I hate to use it turn part time becausethat the minishes it, but then they always have a cool group of fulltimers in the APIS. Full time negotiators are Quantico, the Mystical Quantico,and I got transferred there and I spent the last seven years of my careerdoing nothing but hostage negotiation. Wow. So you mentioned a number of differentI think every every chapter almost starts with sort of like a description of aspecific instance and then it relays the lessons...

...back from that instance. What werewhat we're sort of one or two of your most representative or most interesting situationsthat you can share with the audience. Well, you know, I talkedearly on in the book. I talked about a hostage taking at the ChaseManhattan Bank Brooklyn. And even though bank robberies with hostages and negotiation happens andevery law enforcement movie, in reality they only happen in the entire country.But once every twenty years bank robbers make it a point to get out ofthere before they get trapped. That's why there's almost never a negotiation. Soand the one that I did in New York it had been twenty years sinceone had been done in New York. Wow. And but you show upwith certain amount of expectations. Is Show up and expect the people that aretrapped in a bank to be a little rattled that it wasn't their plan toget caught in the bank. And this guy that we nego shared with initiallywhen and there were two of them inside, he was actually the prototype of thegreat CEO negotiator. And what makes me say that? A great influentialCEO negotiator? If they go to the table at all, they're going tohide their influence. The only use plural pronoun. So talk about you know, I got a team, my board of directors, those guys. I'maccountable to them. You know, I'm not really in charge. You know, it's the board of directors are it's a tactic. One person in businessonce referred told me was referred to people that are not in the room.Well, this bank robber, from the very beginning he was like, I'myou know, these other guys are what dangerous, and me, I'm actuallyscared of the guys. I'm I don't know what they're gonna do. Hewas in charge, he was driving a whole situation, but he was smartenough to hide his influence when he was talking us was what a great CEOwill do. This guy was. This guy was so calm that he literallysaid the first negotiator on the phone with him was a PD guy named Joewho was a great negotiator, and he literally says to Joe, I'm thecalmest one here, like who we're talking to any other side? What isgoing on? He was just he was a smart, shrewd great negotiator.So when you show up in those situations, obviously, I mean the goal ritlarge is obviously get everybody out of there safely. Never expect the differenceright exactly, and and and I guess I rest the bad guys. Buthow do you get from just showing up on the scene with a phone callor a telephone in your hand to that outcome? What are some of thekey strategies? Some people say what's the difference between business negotiation and hostage negotiation? And one of my answers is in business negotiations people get a lot moreupset than they ever do in hostage negotiation. If you could imagine that. Yeah, so takes much higher hostage negotiation. Well, the stakes so much higher. So you would expect people to be more upset right. Yeah,how are they less upset? Your question was what is a strategy? Ourstrategy from the very beginning is we know with our tonal voice we can takecharge without the other side knowing it. And in hostage negotiation we refer tothe as the late night FM DJ Vore. And why are we hearing it rightnow? Wow, I would never nice that on you in this negotiationand I would, I would do that to you. I've been wanting tohear in by practice by a master, the late night FM DJ voice sinceI read the book. So I'm sorry, that was beautiful little bit it.Yeah, what does the tonality do? How does it how does it influencethe counterparty? It hits their mirror NEURAS. Everybody's got in their headsomething weirch we refer to as Mirror Neuras. If you hit somebody's Mareor in neurons, if they can either hear you or see you. And with thelate night FM DJ voice, what it does is it reaches in a flipsthe switch in a mare in theur ons. That actually slows the brain down.Now we thought it was calming people...

...down, but we didn't realize itwas calming them down by slowing them down. And that's why people don't yell atHassas to go shooters, because hostes go shitter. It's an involuntary response, aren't you can't. You cannot block me from hitting your mayor in theirarms. Now, you can fight the reaction, but you can't stop mefrom starting the reaction. And I can change how fast your brain moves and, consequently, we now know a neuroscience, I can actually affect the chemicals thatyour body is releasing into your brain, the impact your thinking, based onmy tone of voice. If you can see me, if you canhear me, I can hit your mirror in their arms and I can beginto hit them before I finish my first sentence. Wow. So job onewhen you show up on the scene, obviously everybody's rattled. First thing isto slow everything down and to start triggering those mirror neurons. Is that accurate? Yeah, you slow it down and the other side doesn't know you're doingit. That's the key to it, because you don't want to engage inan overt waste of time or an overt stalling tack tack. You want theother side to feel like they're in control. You don't want them to know you'rein control. The secret the gaining the upper hand and a negotiation isgiven the other side the illusion of control. And so we want to establish theupper hand while the other side feels like they're in control, which isthe essence of every great hostice negotiation, every great business negotiation. So theessence is making them feel like they're in control. But then what are someof the beyond just tone of voice? What are the other strategies that youemploy? I guess the other question I have, which is which is abroader question, is you know, what's your overall philosophy to negotiation? Areyou sort of like a win win kind of person, where you say,let's find the outcome that everybody wins from, or is I would assume that maybeyou'd have a different point of view? And then from there I would loveto know, like, what are the tactics that you used to getthere? Well, I tweet that a little bit because I'm larally the terminologywin win, for two reasons. Number one, people who try really hardto practice when when often get cheered like sheep and they get shared by thethroat cutter on the other side, because the throat connor will say, youknow what, let's have a win win deal. Like I know my experienceis the sooner somebody says when win to me, the sooner they mean Iwant to win everything. They're going to high anchor. They're trying to getme to drop my guard by seeming to be collaborative. So if you're practicingit, there's a real goods and you're thinking it, you're there's a realgood chance you're vulnerable. If you're saying it, you're probably a shark.Now I do want to create a better deal than either side ever imagined.You know, I want you to get stuff out of this that you're delightedby. I also want to get a lot for me. I just youknow, the delightful stuff is not necessarily at my expense or at your expense. There's always there's always a better deal. There's always a better deal and becausepeople are always hiding stuff. I mean I when we're training, trainingnegotiations, I say if you ever been a negotiation where you weren't holding informationback? And people say like no, no, of course, you know, it's always stuff where hold back. Of course we always have vulnerabilities.Well, if you're holding. You holding it back, that means it's valuable. And if you're always holding stuff back, that means the other side is too, which means you don't know on the stuff that I'm hiding in thestuff that you're hide and there's an overlap on those hidden areas that could bephenomenal if we can get to them, if you're willing to accept that,there's always a better deal at the table, and so I have always my overwritinggoal is to uncover the best possible deal and then decide if I wantto make it. So that's what I'm really trying to do. I'm tryingto get you, trying to get you to trust me. For good reason, that because I'm trying to hurt you. But I need to know what you'rehiding and if I can find out where you're hiding, we can comeup with a better deal and you're going...

...to love it. What are thetactics you used to figure out what people are hiding? Well, and soyou're asking me what's the what's the information gathering process? Because information gathering iscritical and we're all taught we have to gather information. A problem is wethink we have to gather information by asking questions, and that the most effectiveway to gather information only about a third of the time, because there's somethingabout the questioning process that causes the other side to raise their Gore. Sowe trained people to be able to call go back and forth between well calibratedquestions. You know, what we refer to as calibrated questions are principally whatand how questions, first of all, and even bother with yes at all. Yes is the most useless answer that anybody could ever give you because it'sfree kinds of yes is commitment, confirmation, counterfeit. People are so used tobeing trapped by the confirmation yes if they're real good at counterfeit yes.So counterfeit yes is just a lie. Account for yes is a lie.I know you're trying to trap me, so I'm going to say yes becauseI want to hear what you have to say. Okay, it's the getyou talking, because most people are yes addicts and they hear the word yesand they start running off at the mouth. where. You know, Jim Camp, who wrote start with no, used to call it spilling the beans. People are just if they hear yes, they start to spill the beans.I don't bother with it because people are so good at counterfeit yes.And then also, yes is nothing without how. Even if you're giving mea legitimate yes by itself, it doesn't mean a thing unless I get how. So why do I even bother with the yes when I need how?So I'm going to get I'm going to go to how. And what aremy calibrated questions? Principally, what's going on here? How do we proceed? What matters to you? Stuff like that. But now the problem is, what happens if they don't like questions or they can't get good answers?Actually need to trigger some unguarded responses, and that's what our whole design oflabels is. You know, a label is designed to trigger thinking and getan unguarded answer. Let me give you an example. Company were coaching WHO'sin a construction business. Recently they sense that there's one of two executives onthe other side of the table that are not at the table but are causingproblems. Let's call these executives Joe and Bob. They could say, youknow, what are the obstacles here? You know who's on board from yourteam, they could ask a whole series of questions. Or what they didwas they used to label and they said, it seems like Joe and Bob arethe obstructions, and the immediate, involuntary response from the other side wasnow it's not joe, it's Bob. So the label hits people and it'sit's an observation and particularly if your observation is slightly off, people love tocorrect and you want to get an honest, unguarded answer, you're most likely toget it in a correction because people, if I'm correct thing you, I'msafe, I'm secure, I'm superior, I'm smarter than you, and whenI feel all of those things is when I'm most likely to tell youthe truth because I'm I don't know, my guard up, and that's whenpeople say no, it's not Joe, it's Bob, because it triggers theirfeelings of superiority which then cause them to tell the truth. Now that's informationgathering, but not asking a question. So is it? Would you saythat sort of like the labeling process? You mentioned that questions specifically how inwhat which are calibrated questions? There about one third of the information gathering process. Is these other techniques like labeling. Would that be the balance of thetwo thirds? Yeah, if we're really in information gathering, I'm going toprobably switch over and use a lot more labels to trigger your answers. ThenI am going to use questions. I'll use an occasional question. I'm youknow, I'm may really design a question such that if you have a goaland I have a goal, I'll say you want to act and I wantwhy, and I'm going to say, well, how am I supposed togive you a why if I don't get...

...acts? One of the things insales we talked about, or I talk about, is this need for approval, good construct which is just a way of saying sometimes people are selfconscious aboutoffending the counterparty. They're selfconscious about asking a question that is perceived to betoo aggressive or to sales. When you ask a labeling question, I imaginethat one part of the emotional response from the other side could potentially be emotionalin nature, saying like no way man, you got it all wrong. Sohow do you manage the emotional temperature in the room as you're in theinformation gathering process? It's a great question and one of the things about labelsis that automatically helps manage that temperature. Is If a label gives you theoption respond, you don't feel backed into a corner. You know, ifI make a label at his observation. As you think about it, hedecided whether or not you want to respond. Having an option preserves your autonomy increasesthe chance that you're going to respond. Camps Books Start With No. Theentire premise of that book was give people their autonomy and they're more likelyto cooperate. His idea of start with no was not actually what we do, which is intentionally triggered no. His idea was sit down with a counterpartnerand he had a lot of sales experience and he would start up by saying, like looking, say no at any time. I want you to knowthat you could. Any time that you say no to me, I amhappy to stop and go away. And he said he called his definition negotiationwas given the other side the right to veto, and this was giving theother side the right to veto, the right to say no right away,and he found from his experience at as soon as you give people the rightto say no, they were more likely to say yes. As soon asyou give options, they don't feel backed into a corner of their autonomy ispreserved and more likely to cooperate. So that's the design of the label.The label. If I say, you know, seems like Joe with palmby, you know Joe and Bober the problems here. I'm not asking youfor an answer. So if you give me an answer, it's completely atyour offe and you're more likely to answer because I preserved your autonomy. Youfeel respected, you feel appreciated, you feel in charge. I'm triggering allthese emotions simultaneously because they're always there and they're always affecting what you're thinking isit, would you say that stage one essentially, as it information gathering,and once you feel like you have the right amount of information, what's theprocess by which, within a negotiation, you move from having the information todeploying that information successfully to achieve, to your point, a better outcome forall of the participants? All Right, so let me ask the question ofwhile we're getting into this, because we haven't had this conversation, but Iget, I have a feeling that are thinking is the same. You saidstage one. How many stages do you typically see in the life cycle ofan interaction. Well, that is a good question. You know, ifwe're talking about my world, is the world of sales, and in thelife cycle of that interaction, which might be like a sales cycle, there'sprobably discovery, which is sort of the the similar to information gathering, thenthey're sort of presentation, then there's kind of like negotiation and then there's closure. Another's little micro steps in between procurement and legal and things like that.But I'd say generally about four or five. Okay, right, right, sosomewhere more than one, somewhere less than five. Right, yeah,exactly. All right. So the number we swag, scientific, wild ass, guess. All right, you know, and you gotta understand, it's atechnical terms. We get technical terms. I pay more for a technical term. You know, if you say swag O, that's that's the higherday right, right there. Yeah, there you go. Right, andyou know the difference between you know, there's a wagon, there's a swag. So the swag is some data point that you're using to anchor the therock rider. Well, that's cats, wild ass, gas and a scientificwilds getting right, okay. So, but you know, it's interesting.I mean so we see about three like a for the first time that Istarted seeing this dynamica three, because in...

...the book we talked about the Acermanbargaining technique and it's based on three rounds of bargaining to coat close the deal. And you know, I see this in human behavior. It's a Cliche, but if you're dating in it, if you're dating and the dating isgetting serious, what people start to expect to have happened on about the thirdday. They expect to make love with each other. Intimacy, right,yeah, but about a long about the third day, right, yeah,three rounds of bargaining. We do a lot of work in real estate advisingpeople in real estate. What happens when people looking at houses first time togo out and they see a house that kind of blown away? They loveit. You know they're really interested. A real estate agents that expects anoff on on a first view of a house is wrong. Every real estateagent knows a second time that take the buyer out to see the house.Now that buyer is going to start to see all the flaws, the stuffthat they missed from the blown away by the initial curba bill in a firstvisit. If they want that buyer to make an offer. They can't stopthere because in a second the second visit, they saw the flaws. They gotto go out and you got to see the third time and that's whenthey expect to have an offer to be made. So this is interesting dynamic, you know, and your guess was actually what you laid out in yourfour or five first first couple things would take place in a first stage.You also said that you realize that there were sort of smaller portions in eachstage, which is why I think you were you went to like four andtwenty five. Depends upon where you're going to up stuff in. We're goingto look for this dynamic of three in our interaction. So we're going totry to do in. The first is the information gathering phase and then we'reexpecting problems in around the second phase. Second phase is when you get downto business, but don't look to close before you getting on too about thethird phase and if you're not making a lot of progress by the third phase, where if you're not going to close your you feel like you're close toclose and you're not wasting your time. So information gathering, then it's sortof the second phase would be the exposure of the flaws. Or maybe thefirst phase is sort of innocent optimism, than the second is realism, andthen the third is coming to coming together to form a more perfect union.Exactly now. What we left with that we got to consummate. Very goodsho I didn't. You know, I didn't. I didn't pick that termfor deals. Everybody talks about consummate deals. Nothing. Yeah, well, makesa lot of sense when you're out there. I mean, so youleft the FBI is two thousand and seven. Is that right? Yes, anddid you form the Black Swan Group immediately after? And you know you'vebeen consulting. Mentioned real estate. So what are some of the clients thatyou work with? And I guess my big question is you've come into somany different kinds of negotiations. I'm sure there's one, two or three sortof top glaring mistakes that people generally make in the context of a negotiation thatyou wish they would stop. So what are those key mistakes that if weall just stopped doing that we'd all be better off. Yeah, okay,all right. So first part of that. I you know, I left theAPI, went back to school, as got a master's degree as away to sort of transition out of government service in a private service. It'skind of like it's kind of going into a witness security program for a littlewhile I needed needed a buffer. Yeah, I could just leave the government withoutsome sort of protection. And then I founded the Black Swan Group,sort of all at the same time, but although it technically founded Black SwanGroup in two thousand and eight, we didn't really try to get busy laterin the year. And then I started teaching in at Harvard and that atGeorgetown business negotiation almost right away, which helped us develop the doctor and thenalso the great thing about teaching in in a business school is you got peoplefrom every aspect of business, but you...

...get a road test of skills andit's a laboratory and I you know, I made are almost all my studentswere part time, which means they worked during the day. They had realjobs and every industry, every ethnicity. Proof a concept was whether they werein government service, where they were in real estate, whether they manage highwealth individuals. If you're getting a business degree, we get to teach inevery aspect of business and we find out that that are worked in every fieldand it worked with every ethnicity. The same the same motion intelligence skills workedacross the board. So one of the biggest mistakes people make being yes addicts, you know, the Yes momentum or yes a bull agreements of momentum selling. So that in that specifically means sort of like asking a bunch of questionsthat it's very easy for the counterparty to say yes to. Those yeses arelikely counterfeit yeses or some other kind of right as. They don't tell enoughand so you're sort of lulled into this idea that everything's going great, butyou're missing huge pieces of information. That's not going great. Is that?Yeah, and I think it's a single biggest destroyer of relationships. I thinkit's if anybody out there's got people of that are not getting back to him, which we refer to as non responders. You got a non responder, you'vebeen trying to yes trap them. You might have even and you mighthave even been engaged in this yes process. Not Trying to trap them, Imean you just trying to confirm, but you're laying out argument. Youknow. You know, tell me what your goals are. So, fromI understand your goal is this X. I mean other people have used thatsame phrase to trap people. Everybody begins to back away. It's a biggesterotor of trust and a relationship the constant use of yes. So, forexample, like would you say this is a problem that you face, andthen the person says yes, and then you sort of check a little box, thinking that year you've made some progress, when in fact you've probably hurt yourself. Yeah, you've just done something that has caused them to mistrust you, because the snake oil salesman did that and trap them. You know theold saying once bitten, twice shy, or another example of that is oncebitten by a snake, you're afraid of ropes. Add and heard that one, but very good. Okay, yeah, you know, I you. Youtry to hug a batter child, that Batter Child is going to flinch, even though you meant to hog them. I mean, you can't change thefact that everybody you deal with is already, yes, battered, andgetting out of that is going to give is going to be a huge plusup to start with. And then the other thing is, since so manypeople want to deal, I think not getting deals is the biggest cancer onpeople's time that everybody is faced with. Like we spend so much more timenow diagnosing where the or not there's a deal there. We didn't even putit in the book as much because I didn't realize how big the problem wasuntil we've gotten out here and we've been working much more with business people acrossthe board, sales people. There's a saying and sales it. The sinisn't not getting the deal. The sin is to take a long time tonot get the deal. Yeah, maybe no response is the worst answer andknows, yes is the best response. Know is the second best and nothingat all is terrible. Yeah, and that's that's. That's I was talkingto the CEO very large security from just yesterday and he said my sales people, I asked him when something is going to close. I ask him ifsomething's going to close and I say yeah, it's going to close, and Iask him when I say I don't know, and he looked at me. He said, if they say I don't know, they're lying to themselves. I got to get them to stop lying to themselves. And I said, well, your promise. You people are, yes, addicted and inthis yes, addiction. They're getting caught in these endless loops of never theygot some negotiations, deals, sales on their books that they've got listed isgoing to close and it's Naverna close. What's wrong with that? What's wrongwith that is every minute they waste on...

...that deal is keeping them from dealsthat they could close those. That is a very common piece of feedback forsalespeople. And of course the counter argument or the problem is maybe they don'thave enough deals to feel to feel confident about about letting a few go,because then then they have to face with the gaps in the pipeline. Yeah, that's a scary place to be and so many people are in that positionand the idea of cutting off the opportunity. But there's no opportunity there and will. We seen on a regular basis the sooner people get out of thosedeals that never close, the sooner they get into deals that will close.But you can't feel that at the time. Hope is supposed to be a goodword. Hope will take you hostage, and so many people as a hostageof hope that it's killing. Let me ask you a different question.So hostage negotiation and a lot of your negotiation is facetoface, you know,to people may or or it's it's at least using power of the voice.So it's on the phone or facetoface. But email and kind of written communicationis such a massive part of how sales is conducted these days and a lotof the audience out there that's listening to this they do a lot of workover email. And so I guess the question is, how many of thesestrategies are specific to you know, for example, you could ask a bunchof calibrating questions and you could do a bunch of labeling. But doing labelingover email from I don't know, my assumption as a will be less effective. So how do you have to modify the strategy, if at all,when you're using written communication which is a synchronous which is the person receiving itcan respond whenever they feel like it, not in that moment. Yeah,it's a that's a great question. And here's this is the other thing thatthat sort of stunts me and stunts everybody when they take a step back andlook at it, is the things that everybody does while simultaneously detesting having itdone to them. Like you get a long email. Do you read that? Baby? I do not write. And how many people send long emails? Many, many people still do. Nearly everybody who hates getting along emailssends them. And you know, the analogy that I use, that welike to use, is if you were playing chess over them through via email, would you put your next seven moves in one email now, because theplayer on the other side is going to look at all those moves, decidewhich ones they don't like and then go off on a tangent on whichever oneof those moves you don't like. And that's that's what's the problem with layingout everything in an email. So you can use these strategies if you justuse them one at a time and an email, break your emails down,make actual progress. Well, I'm in a heart I can't do that.I don't have time to send seven emails, so I'd rather spend half an hourwriting one email that will never get responded to. Right. Yeah,I mean, when you lay it out like that, it's certainly the logicis is compelling and irrefutable. As they say, it's nuts, but everybodyis so guilty of that. So so, yeah, this stuff is transferable andemail. First you break it down to small bites and secondly, thenrealizing simultaneously that emails always come off either much colder or more more harsh thanthe voice you had in your head when you wrote them. So you addin. You add in a couple of other things to lighten the email upand in the super counterintuitive thing that we teach people is most people open theiremail with something positive and then get down to business. Now the last impressionis the lasting impression. So write your email, put a couple things init and whatever wonderful positive thing you opened with, take it, copy andpaste it and put it at the end of the email, because that's goingto be what resonates in the reader's mind.

If you've written a short email,they'll get to the end and the last impression is a lasting impression,which means it sets up your next interaction. Do you take your wonderfully positive readingand put it at the end and maybe start your email with saying likelook, I'm going to get right down to business here. Boom, oneor two things, and then the end is you know how your family has, your kids, you watch a ball game last night, or I likeI like you know, integrity and positivity at the end of the email.If you're email and somebody, you're hoping you can do great business together,and that's a great last line of your email. I'm really hoping we makea great deal. This email was designed so that we have a long term, prosperous relationship and that's going to be utterly true and utterly positive and theother side is going to love it as a great way to end. That'sa great, very specific tip. It's been awesome talking to you. Christhe so, if I were to summarize, but again I just want to makesure that the folks out there, most important thing that anybody can dois go on is Amazon, your preferred bookseller, to get the best priceon Amazon. I Buy. I buy my book on an yet you buyit three times a day just to make sure it stays up there exactly.The book is called never split the difference. Chris Foss is the author. Ifwe were to summarize, you know the overall strategy. When we saynever split the difference, tell us in your words what that means. Andand also I've got another another resource I like to share with everybody too,before we get done. Absolutely, but you know, never split the difference. The counter intuitive part of that too is the other side might have abetter idea than you do. So never split the differences. Be Willing tocompletely hear the other side out and, you know, don't let your egoget so attached to what you want that it causes your Farrier, which isa paraphrase of a Colon Powell saying from way back. One you know theother side might be right blitting the difference. Example we use in a book.I got on a suit. I don't know whether we're brown shoes orblack shoes, so I split the difference. I put on one black and onebard. The blending of two different ideas is, yeah, so oftena bad idea. You know, the blending of two different ideas is likeyou're trying to design a horse. You need a horse, you end upwith a giraffe. That's splitting the difference. You know it just doesn't work out. So be willing to hear the other side out. If you projectthat you're open to their ideas, you're going to be stunned at how muchmore open to your ideas they will be. It's the old covey advice of seekfirst, understand, then be understood. Let's say covey was a mercenary.He didn't want to understand the other side first because he was a niceguy. He wanted to understand first because he want to get his point across. So how do you do that? You actually show the other side thatyou understand, show them that you're open to their ideas. Feed their ideasback to him, summarize and let him know that you heard him out.Let him know you understood. That's when you get your point across. That'swhen you get your deals. I love it. Wise words. So whatyou mentioned? Another resource besides your book. What we're going to say? Youknow, I get to tell you. We put out a weekly newsletter calledthe edge, and it's free. It's complimentary. I had a colleagueof mine at the FPI, federal government employee, used to like to say, if it's free, I'll take three. There you go. I love it. So how do you sign up for the edge? The easiest waysto sent via text. We got a text to sign up function. Youtext the the message FBI empathy all one word. Your autocorrect is going towant to make it two words. Make sure. It's one word, FBIempathy. Send that text to the number two to eight, two eight again, the numbers twenty two eight, twenty eight. You get a dialog boxand that newsletter comes out once a week at short and sweet. It's Tuesdaymornings. It tease you up. It's kind of like a warm up forthe day. It's also the gateway to our website. Their training announcements inthere. There's information about free material.

It'll take you right to the websitewhen you whenever you need to, which is Black Swan ltdcom. But ifyou subscribe to the edge, that's the gateway to everything. So that's youryour preferred if people want to get in touch with you, you'd prefer theysubscribe to the edge by tech, by TEXTING FBI empathy. All one wordto two, two, a to eight. That accurate, exactly perfect's right,Chris. Thank you so much for participating. I think the book hasbeen has had a big impact on the sales community. You've had a bigimpact and and we love the lessons that you're teaching us. So thanks verymuch. My pleasure. Same thanks for having me on. Take care.This is SAM's corner. was was pretty awesome to be able to talk toChris Fosse, the the author of never split the difference in the founder ofthe Black Swan Group. Listen to Chris and sign up for his newsletter.I think he said you can text FBI empathy to two, to eight,to eight and you'll get a response, which is a very two thousand andeighteen way of signing up for a newsletter. But here's the thing that there's anumber of great things that that Chris articulated in this podcast and I wouldI would definitely encourage everybody to go read the book, which is awesome.But one of the things that I really liked about what he said is justthe concept of yes, the word yes as and as a response to aquestion that you're asking being a negative thing, not a positive thing, because you'regoing to get counterfeit yeses, you're going to get people saying yes whenthey don't really mean it. You're going to assume, if you're a newsalesperson, you're going to assume that everything's moving according to your plan when infact you're just getting a response. People are conditioned to provide to help movealong in the conversation, and so what what Chris suggests is using calibration questionslike how or what, and then using labeling, which is making specific statementsand then letting the audience react to them. But the word yes is often notvery helpful. So when you've when you've got when you're in a salesconversation and you're hearing yes a lot, don't get what Dave Curlin likes tocall happy ears. Don't just assume that everything's going to go perfectly. Usedifferent types of questions to to get to the right answer. Chris mentioned abook written by Jim Camp called the power of no. That's another sort ofreference that Chris provided and everybody can check out that book as well. Butthe point is that don't just assume everything's moving according to playing when you hearthat word yes, because off in the word no can be even more powerful. This has been Sam's corner. Thanks so much for listening. To checkout the show notes, see upcoming guests and play more episodes from our incrediblelineup of sales leaders, visit sales hackercom and head to the podcast tap.You'll find the podcast on itunes or Google play or spotify, I think,anywhere that you find podcasts, you'll find our podcast and if you enjoyed thisepisode, please share it with your peers on Linkedin, twitter or elsewhere.If you want to get in touch with me, find me on twitter atSam f Jacobs. Are On linkedin at linkedincom and Sam F Jacobs. Ifyou want to learn more about what we're doing at the New York revenue collective, go to nyc revenue dotnet and there's a lead form that you can fillout and you can also email me if you want to learn more about behaveox, which is the company where, during the day, I am thechief Revenue Officer. Back them during the day, during the night, duringthe afternoons and at any time that I'm needed for behaveos. Big shout outto our sponsors for this episode. Air Call, your advanced car center software, complete business phone and contacts on our hundred percent natively integrated into any crmand outreach, a customer engagement platform that helps efficiently and effectively engage prospects todrive more pipeline and close more deals. I'll see you next time.

In-Stream Audio Search

NEW

Search across all episodes within this podcast

Episodes (355)