The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

20. How to Negotiate More Effectively to Close More Deals w/ Chris Voss

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Tune in to for expert tips on managing the sales negotiation process with Chris Voss, renowned author, and negotiation expert.

One, two, one, three, three. Welcome to the sales hacker podcast. This is going to be an amazing episode. This is episode twenty and we've got Chris Fosse, author of never split the difference, on the show. Chris's world famous at this point and an incredible insight on negotiating. Now we've got not one but two sponsors to thank, the two sponsors that we've had for a couple weeks now, so we love their support. Thank you. The first is air call. Air Calls a phone system designed for the modern sales team. One of the things that Jeff Freakers, had a marketing at air call, wanted me to know and mention was that it's for the field team and the inside sales team. So it can be deployed anywhere that you are, because they've got great mobile integrations. They seemlessly integrate into your crm, they eliminate data entry for your reps and they give you greater visibility into your team's performance through advanced reporting. So if you're wrapped, it's real easy to use and if you're a manager, you get insight into what's happening on the phone. When it's time to scale, you can add new lines in minutes and you use incall coaching to reduce ramp time for your Reps. so visit are called dot io forward sales hacker to see why Uber, Dun and Brad Street, pipe, drive and thousands of others trust are call for the most critical sales conversations. Our second sponsor is outreached. Out ioh the leading sales engagement platform. So outreach triples the productivity of sales teams and empowers them to drive predictable and measurable revenue growth by prioritizing the right activities and scaling customer engagements with intelligent automation. Outreach makes customer facing teams more effective and improves visibility into what really drives results. Hop over to outreach DOT IO for out sales hacker to see how thousands of customers, including cloud era, glass door, Pandora and Zillo, rely on outreach to deliver higher revenue or sales. Wrap and without further ado, let's listen to Chris Foss on the sales hacker podcast. Hey, everybody, welcome to the sales hacker podcast. It's your host, Sam Jacobs. I'm the founder of the New York revenue collective, as hopefully you know at this point, and today we've got somebody that I'm incredibly excited about. We've got Chris Foss. Chris is the author of never split the difference, which has been, I was mentioning offline to Chris at this point, one of the sort of standard reading texts for negotiation in the sales community. Chris is formally an FBI hostage negotiator and he's the founder and principle of the Black Swan Group, which is the consulting and Professional Services Organization that Chris started to deploy some of the strategies and tactics that he articulates and never split the difference out to the rest of the global community. So, Chris, welcome and thanks so much for your time. By pleasure say thanks for having me on. Absolutely so, to some people your household name and to others you may not be. So it would be really helpful, I think, for our for our listeners, to hear a little bit about your background and sort of go back to some of the experiences in the FBI as a hotsta negotiator that prompted the writing of the book never split the difference. Sure, I mean I originally I know my accent doesn't sound like it, but I'm a small town guy from Iowa, son of Richard Joyce, boss my unpleasant Iowa. The building I worked in in New York City had more people in it than the town I grew up. Wow, how did you find your way from Iowa to New York City? You know, kind of remember my hometown newspaper asked me that question when I was back for a high school reunion and number of years ago. And you know, the journey is so complicated. I just said, you know, basically you go up to interstate eighty and you make a right. There are a number of pit stops and and roadblocks on the way. What was the experience that got you into the FBI originally, and when was when was that happening? Well, I was I was police officer in Kan City, Missouri. My father started to encourage me to look at federal law enforcement because he had just paid for college degree and I went I got a job that didn't need one, and...

...so you know, he was he I think it finally accepted I was going to stay in law enforcement and so we thought, well, federal must be more prestigious, more challenging. You know, whatever the outsiders view is. And he encouraged me to look at the secret service and they weren't hiring. But the guy that I spoke to the service said, you know, I traveled all over the world with a secret service and you know I grew up, but Iwa I mean I I'd seen candidate that was the extent of my international travels. So the thought of people paying a let me go all over the world sounder pretty cool. And I didn't know one federal law enforcement agency from the other. I saw an article in a paper the FBI was hiring. I went down and they had a big hiring push and ten months later I was in. And so you started as a special agent. Is that accurate? And I guess how did you find your way from entering the FBI to becoming a hostage negotiator, into being in some of those sort of high pressure situations? Yeah, you know. Okay. So if you're if your sworn law enforcement, a defense attorney's favorite question was special agent loss. What makes you special? So we had to understand that an agent is somebody who's not authorized to carry a gun and a special agent gets to carry a gun. Wow, and so the API only has special agents, and so you start out as a special agent, and everybody does, and then you might pick up an additional duty. There number of things you could pick up. You could be a swat guy. Originally was a swat guy. was on an FPI s Wat Ting. You could become a hostage nego shitty could be a bomb tech. You being undercover. This that's kind of the extent of it. I started out in Swat. I reinjured an old knee injury from my college days and I realize that instead of continuing to blow my knee out training, which is how I did it, you know, I knew we had hostage to go shatters. They respond along with the Swat guys, I thought, you know, I'd be cool. I could try that. How hard could it be, talking to terrorist? How hard could that be? You know, that's that's just short of the rednecks famous last words of Hey, watch this right. How hard could it be? How I could wait, will you would find out. How hard was it? It was so hard? No, you know, it was actually was in depth. I mean it was so much more. It's emotional intelligence, is what it is. The application of emotional intelligence and a study of it and diving deep into it and it was more satisfying then swat ever was. And and I love being on the swat tape, don't get me wrong, that's a cool gig atsent adrenaline high on a regular basis. But there was something eminently satisfying about doing something with your words, just your words, getting people to completely turn around what they're doing. And how many years did you do that? Well, I was an Impi j'T for total twenty four years and basically the last I get trained as a host has togotiate in one thousand nine hundred and ninety two, so to two thousand and seven. But that you know, you do it a sort of different levels. I mean first you start out as a negotiator in a field office with it as an additional duty, and then I was put in charge of the team in New York City. I was I became a member of the team in New York and then was put in charge of the team and it was the fact that will full time job when I when I took over the team, but it wasn't technically. And then every agency's negotiators are pretty much do it as an additional duty. I hate to use it turn part time because that the minishes it, but then they always have a cool group of full timers in the APIS. Full time negotiators are Quantico, the Mystical Quantico, and I got transferred there and I spent the last seven years of my career doing nothing but hostage negotiation. Wow. So you mentioned a number of different I think every every chapter almost starts with sort of like a description of a specific instance and then it relays the lessons...

...back from that instance. What were what we're sort of one or two of your most representative or most interesting situations that you can share with the audience. Well, you know, I talked early on in the book. I talked about a hostage taking at the Chase Manhattan Bank Brooklyn. And even though bank robberies with hostages and negotiation happens and every law enforcement movie, in reality they only happen in the entire country. But once every twenty years bank robbers make it a point to get out of there before they get trapped. That's why there's almost never a negotiation. So and the one that I did in New York it had been twenty years since one had been done in New York. Wow. And but you show up with certain amount of expectations. Is Show up and expect the people that are trapped in a bank to be a little rattled that it wasn't their plan to get caught in the bank. And this guy that we nego shared with initially when and there were two of them inside, he was actually the prototype of the great CEO negotiator. And what makes me say that? A great influential CEO negotiator? If they go to the table at all, they're going to hide their influence. The only use plural pronoun. So talk about you know, I got a team, my board of directors, those guys. I'm accountable to them. You know, I'm not really in charge. You know, it's the board of directors are it's a tactic. One person in business once referred told me was referred to people that are not in the room. Well, this bank robber, from the very beginning he was like, I'm you know, these other guys are what dangerous, and me, I'm actually scared of the guys. I'm I don't know what they're gonna do. He was in charge, he was driving a whole situation, but he was smart enough to hide his influence when he was talking us was what a great CEO will do. This guy was. This guy was so calm that he literally said the first negotiator on the phone with him was a PD guy named Joe who was a great negotiator, and he literally says to Joe, I'm the calmest one here, like who we're talking to any other side? What is going on? He was just he was a smart, shrewd great negotiator. So when you show up in those situations, obviously, I mean the goal rit large is obviously get everybody out of there safely. Never expect the difference right exactly, and and and I guess I rest the bad guys. But how do you get from just showing up on the scene with a phone call or a telephone in your hand to that outcome? What are some of the key strategies? Some people say what's the difference between business negotiation and hostage negotiation? And one of my answers is in business negotiations people get a lot more upset than they ever do in hostage negotiation. If you could imagine that. Yeah, so takes much higher hostage negotiation. Well, the stakes so much higher. So you would expect people to be more upset right. Yeah, how are they less upset? Your question was what is a strategy? Our strategy from the very beginning is we know with our tonal voice we can take charge without the other side knowing it. And in hostage negotiation we refer to the as the late night FM DJ Vore. And why are we hearing it right now? Wow, I would never nice that on you in this negotiation and I would, I would do that to you. I've been wanting to hear in by practice by a master, the late night FM DJ voice since I read the book. So I'm sorry, that was beautiful little bit it. Yeah, what does the tonality do? How does it how does it influence the counterparty? It hits their mirror NEURAS. Everybody's got in their head something weirch we refer to as Mirror Neuras. If you hit somebody's Mareor in neurons, if they can either hear you or see you. And with the late night FM DJ voice, what it does is it reaches in a flips the switch in a mare in theur ons. That actually slows the brain down. Now we thought it was calming people...

...down, but we didn't realize it was calming them down by slowing them down. And that's why people don't yell at Hassas to go shooters, because hostes go shitter. It's an involuntary response, aren't you can't. You cannot block me from hitting your mayor in their arms. Now, you can fight the reaction, but you can't stop me from starting the reaction. And I can change how fast your brain moves and, consequently, we now know a neuroscience, I can actually affect the chemicals that your body is releasing into your brain, the impact your thinking, based on my tone of voice. If you can see me, if you can hear me, I can hit your mirror in their arms and I can begin to hit them before I finish my first sentence. Wow. So job one when you show up on the scene, obviously everybody's rattled. First thing is to slow everything down and to start triggering those mirror neurons. Is that accurate? Yeah, you slow it down and the other side doesn't know you're doing it. That's the key to it, because you don't want to engage in an overt waste of time or an overt stalling tack tack. You want the other side to feel like they're in control. You don't want them to know you're in control. The secret the gaining the upper hand and a negotiation is given the other side the illusion of control. And so we want to establish the upper hand while the other side feels like they're in control, which is the essence of every great hostice negotiation, every great business negotiation. So the essence is making them feel like they're in control. But then what are some of the beyond just tone of voice? What are the other strategies that you employ? I guess the other question I have, which is which is a broader question, is you know, what's your overall philosophy to negotiation? Are you sort of like a win win kind of person, where you say, let's find the outcome that everybody wins from, or is I would assume that maybe you'd have a different point of view? And then from there I would love to know, like, what are the tactics that you used to get there? Well, I tweet that a little bit because I'm larally the terminology win win, for two reasons. Number one, people who try really hard to practice when when often get cheered like sheep and they get shared by the throat cutter on the other side, because the throat connor will say, you know what, let's have a win win deal. Like I know my experience is the sooner somebody says when win to me, the sooner they mean I want to win everything. They're going to high anchor. They're trying to get me to drop my guard by seeming to be collaborative. So if you're practicing it, there's a real goods and you're thinking it, you're there's a real good chance you're vulnerable. If you're saying it, you're probably a shark. Now I do want to create a better deal than either side ever imagined. You know, I want you to get stuff out of this that you're delighted by. I also want to get a lot for me. I just you know, the delightful stuff is not necessarily at my expense or at your expense. There's always there's always a better deal. There's always a better deal and because people are always hiding stuff. I mean I when we're training, training negotiations, I say if you ever been a negotiation where you weren't holding information back? And people say like no, no, of course, you know, it's always stuff where hold back. Of course we always have vulnerabilities. Well, if you're holding. You holding it back, that means it's valuable. And if you're always holding stuff back, that means the other side is too, which means you don't know on the stuff that I'm hiding in the stuff that you're hide and there's an overlap on those hidden areas that could be phenomenal if we can get to them, if you're willing to accept that, there's always a better deal at the table, and so I have always my overwriting goal is to uncover the best possible deal and then decide if I want to make it. So that's what I'm really trying to do. I'm trying to get you, trying to get you to trust me. For good reason, that because I'm trying to hurt you. But I need to know what you're hiding and if I can find out where you're hiding, we can come up with a better deal and you're going...

...to love it. What are the tactics you used to figure out what people are hiding? Well, and so you're asking me what's the what's the information gathering process? Because information gathering is critical and we're all taught we have to gather information. A problem is we think we have to gather information by asking questions, and that the most effective way to gather information only about a third of the time, because there's something about the questioning process that causes the other side to raise their Gore. So we trained people to be able to call go back and forth between well calibrated questions. You know, what we refer to as calibrated questions are principally what and how questions, first of all, and even bother with yes at all. Yes is the most useless answer that anybody could ever give you because it's free kinds of yes is commitment, confirmation, counterfeit. People are so used to being trapped by the confirmation yes if they're real good at counterfeit yes. So counterfeit yes is just a lie. Account for yes is a lie. I know you're trying to trap me, so I'm going to say yes because I want to hear what you have to say. Okay, it's the get you talking, because most people are yes addicts and they hear the word yes and they start running off at the mouth. where. You know, Jim Camp, who wrote start with no, used to call it spilling the beans. People are just if they hear yes, they start to spill the beans. I don't bother with it because people are so good at counterfeit yes. And then also, yes is nothing without how. Even if you're giving me a legitimate yes by itself, it doesn't mean a thing unless I get how. So why do I even bother with the yes when I need how? So I'm going to get I'm going to go to how. And what are my calibrated questions? Principally, what's going on here? How do we proceed? What matters to you? Stuff like that. But now the problem is, what happens if they don't like questions or they can't get good answers? Actually need to trigger some unguarded responses, and that's what our whole design of labels is. You know, a label is designed to trigger thinking and get an unguarded answer. Let me give you an example. Company were coaching WHO's in a construction business. Recently they sense that there's one of two executives on the other side of the table that are not at the table but are causing problems. Let's call these executives Joe and Bob. They could say, you know, what are the obstacles here? You know who's on board from your team, they could ask a whole series of questions. Or what they did was they used to label and they said, it seems like Joe and Bob are the obstructions, and the immediate, involuntary response from the other side was now it's not joe, it's Bob. So the label hits people and it's it's an observation and particularly if your observation is slightly off, people love to correct and you want to get an honest, unguarded answer, you're most likely to get it in a correction because people, if I'm correct thing you, I'm safe, I'm secure, I'm superior, I'm smarter than you, and when I feel all of those things is when I'm most likely to tell you the truth because I'm I don't know, my guard up, and that's when people say no, it's not Joe, it's Bob, because it triggers their feelings of superiority which then cause them to tell the truth. Now that's information gathering, but not asking a question. So is it? Would you say that sort of like the labeling process? You mentioned that questions specifically how in what which are calibrated questions? There about one third of the information gathering process. Is these other techniques like labeling. Would that be the balance of the two thirds? Yeah, if we're really in information gathering, I'm going to probably switch over and use a lot more labels to trigger your answers. Then I am going to use questions. I'll use an occasional question. I'm you know, I'm may really design a question such that if you have a goal and I have a goal, I'll say you want to act and I want why, and I'm going to say, well, how am I supposed to give you a why if I don't get...

...acts? One of the things in sales we talked about, or I talk about, is this need for approval, good construct which is just a way of saying sometimes people are selfconscious about offending the counterparty. They're selfconscious about asking a question that is perceived to be too aggressive or to sales. When you ask a labeling question, I imagine that one part of the emotional response from the other side could potentially be emotional in nature, saying like no way man, you got it all wrong. So how do you manage the emotional temperature in the room as you're in the information gathering process? It's a great question and one of the things about labels is that automatically helps manage that temperature. Is If a label gives you the option respond, you don't feel backed into a corner. You know, if I make a label at his observation. As you think about it, he decided whether or not you want to respond. Having an option preserves your autonomy increases the chance that you're going to respond. Camps Books Start With No. The entire premise of that book was give people their autonomy and they're more likely to cooperate. His idea of start with no was not actually what we do, which is intentionally triggered no. His idea was sit down with a counterpartner and he had a lot of sales experience and he would start up by saying, like looking, say no at any time. I want you to know that you could. Any time that you say no to me, I am happy to stop and go away. And he said he called his definition negotiation was given the other side the right to veto, and this was giving the other side the right to veto, the right to say no right away, and he found from his experience at as soon as you give people the right to say no, they were more likely to say yes. As soon as you give options, they don't feel backed into a corner of their autonomy is preserved and more likely to cooperate. So that's the design of the label. The label. If I say, you know, seems like Joe with palm by, you know Joe and Bober the problems here. I'm not asking you for an answer. So if you give me an answer, it's completely at your offe and you're more likely to answer because I preserved your autonomy. You feel respected, you feel appreciated, you feel in charge. I'm triggering all these emotions simultaneously because they're always there and they're always affecting what you're thinking is it, would you say that stage one essentially, as it information gathering, and once you feel like you have the right amount of information, what's the process by which, within a negotiation, you move from having the information to deploying that information successfully to achieve, to your point, a better outcome for all of the participants? All Right, so let me ask the question of while we're getting into this, because we haven't had this conversation, but I get, I have a feeling that are thinking is the same. You said stage one. How many stages do you typically see in the life cycle of an interaction. Well, that is a good question. You know, if we're talking about my world, is the world of sales, and in the life cycle of that interaction, which might be like a sales cycle, there's probably discovery, which is sort of the the similar to information gathering, then they're sort of presentation, then there's kind of like negotiation and then there's closure. Another's little micro steps in between procurement and legal and things like that. But I'd say generally about four or five. Okay, right, right, so somewhere more than one, somewhere less than five. Right, yeah, exactly. All right. So the number we swag, scientific, wild ass, guess. All right, you know, and you gotta understand, it's a technical terms. We get technical terms. I pay more for a technical term. You know, if you say swag O, that's that's the higher day right, right there. Yeah, there you go. Right, and you know the difference between you know, there's a wagon, there's a swag. So the swag is some data point that you're using to anchor the the rock rider. Well, that's cats, wild ass, gas and a scientific wilds getting right, okay. So, but you know, it's interesting. I mean so we see about three like a for the first time that I started seeing this dynamica three, because in...

...the book we talked about the Acerman bargaining technique and it's based on three rounds of bargaining to coat close the deal. And you know, I see this in human behavior. It's a Cliche, but if you're dating in it, if you're dating and the dating is getting serious, what people start to expect to have happened on about the third day. They expect to make love with each other. Intimacy, right, yeah, but about a long about the third day, right, yeah, three rounds of bargaining. We do a lot of work in real estate advising people in real estate. What happens when people looking at houses first time to go out and they see a house that kind of blown away? They love it. You know they're really interested. A real estate agents that expects an off on on a first view of a house is wrong. Every real estate agent knows a second time that take the buyer out to see the house. Now that buyer is going to start to see all the flaws, the stuff that they missed from the blown away by the initial curba bill in a first visit. If they want that buyer to make an offer. They can't stop there because in a second the second visit, they saw the flaws. They got to go out and you got to see the third time and that's when they expect to have an offer to be made. So this is interesting dynamic, you know, and your guess was actually what you laid out in your four or five first first couple things would take place in a first stage. You also said that you realize that there were sort of smaller portions in each stage, which is why I think you were you went to like four and twenty five. Depends upon where you're going to up stuff in. We're going to look for this dynamic of three in our interaction. So we're going to try to do in. The first is the information gathering phase and then we're expecting problems in around the second phase. Second phase is when you get down to business, but don't look to close before you getting on too about the third phase and if you're not making a lot of progress by the third phase, where if you're not going to close your you feel like you're close to close and you're not wasting your time. So information gathering, then it's sort of the second phase would be the exposure of the flaws. Or maybe the first phase is sort of innocent optimism, than the second is realism, and then the third is coming to coming together to form a more perfect union. Exactly now. What we left with that we got to consummate. Very good sho I didn't. You know, I didn't. I didn't pick that term for deals. Everybody talks about consummate deals. Nothing. Yeah, well, makes a lot of sense when you're out there. I mean, so you left the FBI is two thousand and seven. Is that right? Yes, and did you form the Black Swan Group immediately after? And you know you've been consulting. Mentioned real estate. So what are some of the clients that you work with? And I guess my big question is you've come into so many different kinds of negotiations. I'm sure there's one, two or three sort of top glaring mistakes that people generally make in the context of a negotiation that you wish they would stop. So what are those key mistakes that if we all just stopped doing that we'd all be better off. Yeah, okay, all right. So first part of that. I you know, I left the API, went back to school, as got a master's degree as a way to sort of transition out of government service in a private service. It's kind of like it's kind of going into a witness security program for a little while I needed needed a buffer. Yeah, I could just leave the government without some sort of protection. And then I founded the Black Swan Group, sort of all at the same time, but although it technically founded Black Swan Group in two thousand and eight, we didn't really try to get busy later in the year. And then I started teaching in at Harvard and that at Georgetown business negotiation almost right away, which helped us develop the doctor and then also the great thing about teaching in in a business school is you got people from every aspect of business, but you...

...get a road test of skills and it's a laboratory and I you know, I made are almost all my students were part time, which means they worked during the day. They had real jobs and every industry, every ethnicity. Proof a concept was whether they were in government service, where they were in real estate, whether they manage high wealth individuals. If you're getting a business degree, we get to teach in every aspect of business and we find out that that are worked in every field and it worked with every ethnicity. The same the same motion intelligence skills worked across the board. So one of the biggest mistakes people make being yes addicts, you know, the Yes momentum or yes a bull agreements of momentum selling. So that in that specifically means sort of like asking a bunch of questions that it's very easy for the counterparty to say yes to. Those yeses are likely counterfeit yeses or some other kind of right as. They don't tell enough and so you're sort of lulled into this idea that everything's going great, but you're missing huge pieces of information. That's not going great. Is that? Yeah, and I think it's a single biggest destroyer of relationships. I think it's if anybody out there's got people of that are not getting back to him, which we refer to as non responders. You got a non responder, you've been trying to yes trap them. You might have even and you might have even been engaged in this yes process. Not Trying to trap them, I mean you just trying to confirm, but you're laying out argument. You know. You know, tell me what your goals are. So, from I understand your goal is this X. I mean other people have used that same phrase to trap people. Everybody begins to back away. It's a biggest erotor of trust and a relationship the constant use of yes. So, for example, like would you say this is a problem that you face, and then the person says yes, and then you sort of check a little box, thinking that year you've made some progress, when in fact you've probably hurt yourself. Yeah, you've just done something that has caused them to mistrust you, because the snake oil salesman did that and trap them. You know the old saying once bitten, twice shy, or another example of that is once bitten by a snake, you're afraid of ropes. Add and heard that one, but very good. Okay, yeah, you know, I you. You try to hug a batter child, that Batter Child is going to flinch, even though you meant to hog them. I mean, you can't change the fact that everybody you deal with is already, yes, battered, and getting out of that is going to give is going to be a huge plus up to start with. And then the other thing is, since so many people want to deal, I think not getting deals is the biggest cancer on people's time that everybody is faced with. Like we spend so much more time now diagnosing where the or not there's a deal there. We didn't even put it in the book as much because I didn't realize how big the problem was until we've gotten out here and we've been working much more with business people across the board, sales people. There's a saying and sales it. The sin isn't not getting the deal. The sin is to take a long time to not get the deal. Yeah, maybe no response is the worst answer and knows, yes is the best response. Know is the second best and nothing at all is terrible. Yeah, and that's that's. That's I was talking to the CEO very large security from just yesterday and he said my sales people, I asked him when something is going to close. I ask him if something's going to close and I say yeah, it's going to close, and I ask him when I say I don't know, and he looked at me. He said, if they say I don't know, they're lying to themselves. I got to get them to stop lying to themselves. And I said, well, your promise. You people are, yes, addicted and in this yes, addiction. They're getting caught in these endless loops of never they got some negotiations, deals, sales on their books that they've got listed is going to close and it's Naverna close. What's wrong with that? What's wrong with that is every minute they waste on...

...that deal is keeping them from deals that they could close those. That is a very common piece of feedback for salespeople. And of course the counter argument or the problem is maybe they don't have enough deals to feel to feel confident about about letting a few go, because then then they have to face with the gaps in the pipeline. Yeah, that's a scary place to be and so many people are in that position and the idea of cutting off the opportunity. But there's no opportunity there and will. We seen on a regular basis the sooner people get out of those deals that never close, the sooner they get into deals that will close. But you can't feel that at the time. Hope is supposed to be a good word. Hope will take you hostage, and so many people as a hostage of hope that it's killing. Let me ask you a different question. So hostage negotiation and a lot of your negotiation is facetoface, you know, to people may or or it's it's at least using power of the voice. So it's on the phone or facetoface. But email and kind of written communication is such a massive part of how sales is conducted these days and a lot of the audience out there that's listening to this they do a lot of work over email. And so I guess the question is, how many of these strategies are specific to you know, for example, you could ask a bunch of calibrating questions and you could do a bunch of labeling. But doing labeling over email from I don't know, my assumption as a will be less effective. So how do you have to modify the strategy, if at all, when you're using written communication which is a synchronous which is the person receiving it can respond whenever they feel like it, not in that moment. Yeah, it's a that's a great question. And here's this is the other thing that that sort of stunts me and stunts everybody when they take a step back and look at it, is the things that everybody does while simultaneously detesting having it done to them. Like you get a long email. Do you read that? Baby? I do not write. And how many people send long emails? Many, many people still do. Nearly everybody who hates getting along emails sends them. And you know, the analogy that I use, that we like to use, is if you were playing chess over them through via email, would you put your next seven moves in one email now, because the player on the other side is going to look at all those moves, decide which ones they don't like and then go off on a tangent on whichever one of those moves you don't like. And that's that's what's the problem with laying out everything in an email. So you can use these strategies if you just use them one at a time and an email, break your emails down, make actual progress. Well, I'm in a heart I can't do that. I don't have time to send seven emails, so I'd rather spend half an hour writing one email that will never get responded to. Right. Yeah, I mean, when you lay it out like that, it's certainly the logic is is compelling and irrefutable. As they say, it's nuts, but everybody is so guilty of that. So so, yeah, this stuff is transferable and email. First you break it down to small bites and secondly, then realizing simultaneously that emails always come off either much colder or more more harsh than the voice you had in your head when you wrote them. So you add in. You add in a couple of other things to lighten the email up and in the super counterintuitive thing that we teach people is most people open their email with something positive and then get down to business. Now the last impression is the lasting impression. So write your email, put a couple things in it and whatever wonderful positive thing you opened with, take it, copy and paste it and put it at the end of the email, because that's going to be what resonates in the reader's mind.

If you've written a short email, they'll get to the end and the last impression is a lasting impression, which means it sets up your next interaction. Do you take your wonderfully positive reading and put it at the end and maybe start your email with saying like look, I'm going to get right down to business here. Boom, one or two things, and then the end is you know how your family has, your kids, you watch a ball game last night, or I like I like you know, integrity and positivity at the end of the email. If you're email and somebody, you're hoping you can do great business together, and that's a great last line of your email. I'm really hoping we make a great deal. This email was designed so that we have a long term, prosperous relationship and that's going to be utterly true and utterly positive and the other side is going to love it as a great way to end. That's a great, very specific tip. It's been awesome talking to you. Chris the so, if I were to summarize, but again I just want to make sure that the folks out there, most important thing that anybody can do is go on is Amazon, your preferred bookseller, to get the best price on Amazon. I Buy. I buy my book on an yet you buy it three times a day just to make sure it stays up there exactly. The book is called never split the difference. Chris Foss is the author. If we were to summarize, you know the overall strategy. When we say never split the difference, tell us in your words what that means. And and also I've got another another resource I like to share with everybody too, before we get done. Absolutely, but you know, never split the difference. The counter intuitive part of that too is the other side might have a better idea than you do. So never split the differences. Be Willing to completely hear the other side out and, you know, don't let your ego get so attached to what you want that it causes your Farrier, which is a paraphrase of a Colon Powell saying from way back. One you know the other side might be right blitting the difference. Example we use in a book. I got on a suit. I don't know whether we're brown shoes or black shoes, so I split the difference. I put on one black and one bard. The blending of two different ideas is, yeah, so often a bad idea. You know, the blending of two different ideas is like you're trying to design a horse. You need a horse, you end up with a giraffe. That's splitting the difference. You know it just doesn't work out. So be willing to hear the other side out. If you project that you're open to their ideas, you're going to be stunned at how much more open to your ideas they will be. It's the old covey advice of seek first, understand, then be understood. Let's say covey was a mercenary. He didn't want to understand the other side first because he was a nice guy. He wanted to understand first because he want to get his point across. So how do you do that? You actually show the other side that you understand, show them that you're open to their ideas. Feed their ideas back to him, summarize and let him know that you heard him out. Let him know you understood. That's when you get your point across. That's when you get your deals. I love it. Wise words. So what you mentioned? Another resource besides your book. What we're going to say? You know, I get to tell you. We put out a weekly newsletter called the edge, and it's free. It's complimentary. I had a colleague of mine at the FPI, federal government employee, used to like to say, if it's free, I'll take three. There you go. I love it. So how do you sign up for the edge? The easiest ways to sent via text. We got a text to sign up function. You text the the message FBI empathy all one word. Your autocorrect is going to want to make it two words. Make sure. It's one word, FBI empathy. Send that text to the number two to eight, two eight again, the numbers twenty two eight, twenty eight. You get a dialog box and that newsletter comes out once a week at short and sweet. It's Tuesday mornings. It tease you up. It's kind of like a warm up for the day. It's also the gateway to our website. Their training announcements in there. There's information about free material.

It'll take you right to the website when you whenever you need to, which is Black Swan ltdcom. But if you subscribe to the edge, that's the gateway to everything. So that's your your preferred if people want to get in touch with you, you'd prefer they subscribe to the edge by tech, by TEXTING FBI empathy. All one word to two, two, a to eight. That accurate, exactly perfect's right, Chris. Thank you so much for participating. I think the book has been has had a big impact on the sales community. You've had a big impact and and we love the lessons that you're teaching us. So thanks very much. My pleasure. Same thanks for having me on. Take care. This is SAM's corner. was was pretty awesome to be able to talk to Chris Fosse, the the author of never split the difference in the founder of the Black Swan Group. Listen to Chris and sign up for his newsletter. I think he said you can text FBI empathy to two, to eight, to eight and you'll get a response, which is a very two thousand and eighteen way of signing up for a newsletter. But here's the thing that there's a number of great things that that Chris articulated in this podcast and I would I would definitely encourage everybody to go read the book, which is awesome. But one of the things that I really liked about what he said is just the concept of yes, the word yes as and as a response to a question that you're asking being a negative thing, not a positive thing, because you're going to get counterfeit yeses, you're going to get people saying yes when they don't really mean it. You're going to assume, if you're a new salesperson, you're going to assume that everything's moving according to your plan when in fact you're just getting a response. People are conditioned to provide to help move along in the conversation, and so what what Chris suggests is using calibration questions like how or what, and then using labeling, which is making specific statements and then letting the audience react to them. But the word yes is often not very helpful. So when you've when you've got when you're in a sales conversation and you're hearing yes a lot, don't get what Dave Curlin likes to call happy ears. Don't just assume that everything's going to go perfectly. Use different types of questions to to get to the right answer. Chris mentioned a book written by Jim Camp called the power of no. That's another sort of reference that Chris provided and everybody can check out that book as well. But the point is that don't just assume everything's moving according to playing when you hear that word yes, because off in the word no can be even more powerful. This has been Sam's corner. Thanks so much for listening. To check out the show notes, see upcoming guests and play more episodes from our incredible lineup of sales leaders, visit sales hackercom and head to the podcast tap. You'll find the podcast on itunes or Google play or spotify, I think, anywhere that you find podcasts, you'll find our podcast and if you enjoyed this episode, please share it with your peers on Linkedin, twitter or elsewhere. If you want to get in touch with me, find me on twitter at Sam f Jacobs. Are On linkedin at linkedincom and Sam F Jacobs. If you want to learn more about what we're doing at the New York revenue collective, go to nyc revenue dotnet and there's a lead form that you can fill out and you can also email me if you want to learn more about behave ox, which is the company where, during the day, I am the chief Revenue Officer. Back them during the day, during the night, during the afternoons and at any time that I'm needed for behaveos. Big shout out to our sponsors for this episode. Air Call, your advanced car center software, complete business phone and contacts on our hundred percent natively integrated into any crm and outreach, a customer engagement platform that helps efficiently and effectively engage prospects to drive more pipeline and close more deals. I'll see you next time.

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