The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

22. The Secret to Becoming a Successful Account Executive w/ John Barrows

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Talking about his background, secrets to prospecting, and top tips to becoming a successful account executive is John Barrows on this week's episode!

One, two, one, three, everybody, this is the sales hacker podcast and I am your host,Sam Jacobs. I'm the founder of the New York revenue collective and I'm alsothe chief Revenue Officer of an amazing company called Behavox, which is a peopleanalytics behavioral operating system. We can tell you more about that when the timeis right, but for now we've got on our show today John Barrows,and everybody knows who John Is. John is the sales trainer that trains salesforce and I first came into contact with him years ago at Axeo. Hedelivered an amazing one day training session titled Filling The funnel, and we've gothim back on the show and he is just his enthusiasm for the for theprofession of sales, is infectious and he'll tell you all about how to howto generate engagement, how to get meetings, how to build pipeline and how toapproach your day in the right way. So we're excited to have John on, but first we've got our sponsors. We've got air call is our firstsponsor. They are a phone system designed for the modern sales team.If you're not using air call at this point. I honestly don't know what'swrong with you, but to the extent that you need to hear more.They seamlessly integrated into your crm. They eliminated it and free for your reps, and they provide you, assuming you as a manager, with greater visibilityinto your team's performance through advanced reporting. When it's time to scale, youcan add new lines and minutes and you can use incall coaching to reduce ramptime for your new Reps. so here's the website to go to. AirCall that IOE forward slash sales hacker. That is are all dot io forwardslash sales hacker to see why Hubert done and Bradstreet pipe drive in thousands ofothers trust sales hacker with their most critical sales conversations. Our second sponsor isoutreach. IO, but leading sales engagement platform. Outreach triples the productivity ofsales teams and empowers them to drive predictable and measurable revenue growth by prioritizing theright activities and scaling customer engagements with intelligent automation. Outreach makes customer facing teamsmore effective and improves his ability into what really drives results up. Over tooutreach. Io forward sales hacker to see how thousands of customers, including cloud, air, glass door, Pandora and Zilo, rely on outreach to deliverhigher revenue for per sales rep now hold on one more second because I wantto thank a few people that have reached out for me for listening to thepodcast. Here they are anthony to graw at domain computer services, James Rose, who reached out to me to talk about the London revement collective, MickDinnon at outbound to FY, Kevin and real hope I said your last nameRight, Kevin at annex cloud, and then Jay Williams from argyle. Thoseare all listeners that have chimed in and said Hey, we appreciate what you'redoing and I want to say thank you. And if you've got feedback or newguests that you want us to host or questions you want me to ask, please let me know. I love feedback. My life gives it tome all the time. It's just wonderful. So, without further ado, let'slisten to John Barrows. Hey, everybody and welcome to the sales hackerpodcast. We've got a very special guest today. My I guess today isJohn Barrows, who most people that I know in the sales world in thestartup community already know who he is. I've known about him for a coupleof years. I've worked with John at most of the companies that I've workedfor over the past we first met him at axial. He then came intolive stream and did a conversation with us and did a training with us andthen he did a training with us when I was at the news. SoI've known John for a long time. He's been one of the top salestrainers and sort of sales thought leaders in the startup ecosystem and he is thefounder and owner of Jay Barrows Consulting. He teaches both prospecting and I'll alwaysremember his filling the funnel session, but he also teaches a bunch of otherstrategies and mechanisms which I used to this day. One of them is thegift to get score card. So John is out there in the sales world. I think one of his favorite and famous mantras is he teaches salesports howto sell, which I think was a thing that he walked around dream force, handing out business cards and talked about a couple of years ago and we'rejust super excited to have him on the show. So, John, thanksfor joining. Thanks for having me. Sam. It's awesome to connector ofthe here because we do have a history and also sales accer in Generalman,you know I've been following what Max has been doing ever since he got thisthing started. So I love what you guys are doing in the community builthere, trying to elevate the profession. So hopefully we can drop some knowledgetoday the people can get some value out of that is the goal and anybodythat knows Max knows that he's one of the world's top hustlers. So we'reexcited. We're all eager and excited to be part of the sales hacker world. I know you pretty well and a lot of other people do as well, but it would be useful, John, to hear a little bit about yourbackground, to frame your context and figure out how did you get intosales training? You know, as you talk about, you are one ofthe sales trainers that's a true sales practitioner and you do sales every day whenyou're building pipeline or going through your your selling motions. How did you getinto this line of work? Yeah, it's I mean it's not something Iplanned. I will say that it's kind of it's an evolution, right.I mean I got my degree in marketing because back twenty years ago there wasabsolutely no degrees in sales. Now, thankfully, there's at least a fewout there. And started with the wall,...

...then Xerox, and that's really whatI got my true sales education. You know, selling copiers brutal andI, by the way, I settle copiers to the government, so itwas even worse. And I mean I love I learned at least how totake rejection, if nothing else. And then I started a company doing outsourcedit services. So I was like twenty five. A few of my buddieswe got together from high school and started an outsourced it services company and,you know, I was twenty five, so I didn't know what I wasdoing. So I took every training, right sailer Miller, him and Taz, been all of it, and I came across come this company called Bashow, and it was the first training that really resonated with the may be becauseit was very tactical. It was not this huge theory or, you know, role play driven. It was super tactical and I love that because I'ma pretty keep it simple stupid guy. Right. So I used it,grew drive up, sold it off to staples and then was looking for anew role and Bashow, the training company, offered me a position to be atrainer and I was like no, I don't think so, because upuntil that point in my career, the only type of sales trainers I hadcome across or their failed sales professionals or professional presenters. And they and ifyou've ever felt, if you know, if you ever taken a training,I mean I think other professions you can get away with going through the slidedeck and really just being a good presenter, but sales you can sniff out abullshit sales rep, you know, trainer all day, every day,right, because I will tell you right now it is way easier to tellpeople how to do this stuff than it is to actually do it. Andagain, if you've ever been in a training where you can tell either theythey've never done it or they did it twenty years ago, right, yeah, that's the problem with this industry right now is that you got all thesesuper old school trainers still training, you know, methodologies that were thirty yearsback. I wanted nothing to do with it, but they were like,don't worry, you have to use these techniques to sell, so you cantrain, so you can get paid. And since sales is more my passionthan anything else, I was like, okay, I like the whole practicewhich your preach thing. So I got on board with them. And thentwo thousand and seven hit and the economy just got crushed and new CEO restructuredthe company, to put it lightly, fired thirty of the thirty five ofus one day and when all in on software and left the training on theside of the road of the die. And so I've always said I'm notthe smartest cut out there by any stretch, but I'm definitely an opportunist. AndI walked into his office I was like hey, that kind of sucks. So, just out of curiosity, what are you when you're going todo with the training? And he was like I don't know what you thinkI should do it? I'm like Shit, can I have it? Yeah,take it. So I mean a little bit more of that, butnot much, and so I split off with started Kense a partners with oneof the other senior trainers and then about five years ago, one off onmy own, because I've always kind of had the bug and the itch todo my own thing and I'm a total pain in the ass to deal withanyways. So, you know, I think the entrepreneurship or but also moresolo consultant approach to me is was a lot more appealing. And so nowI get to go play around with a lot of the SASS company. Sosales force, yes, is they're still my biggest client, but linkedin box, dropbox, OCTA APP to Google like. I've trained a lot of those companiesand it's fun. Right. I love playing in the tech world becausethere's Sass, specifically because SASS pushes the envelope from a tech standpoint, butit also from a sales standpoint. All right, if I'm trained sales forceon the same stuff I was trained them on two or three years ago,there's no way they are renewing my contract, and so it forces me. That'swhy I say I'm not really a trainer, I'm a sales sales repthat happens to train, and so I sell every day and I translate thatinto the training for the reps so hopefully have some real world examples that theycan, you know, learn from. Well, you know, I'll alwaysremember the first time you came into axeal and everybody walked out of their thinkingit was sort of the best day that they've ever had in a sales trainingenvironment. And again, part of it is because you gave so many actual, useful, practical examples. My question is, how'd you figure out thisformula, because you left your old shop and it feels like it's not anovernight success. You work your ass off, but every year it's bigger and bigger. Every year there's more substance to the Jay Barrows Platform. was therea moment? was there a first client? was there a light bulb that triggeredit when you went on in your own that you knew you were goingto be successful? Or yours just so determined that, no matter what,you were going to make sure you you want? I think it's more ofthe ladder man. There's no light bulb to your point. You know,there's no overnight success. Is there's no and and usually the ones that Idon't last, you know, I it's funny everybody ask you what's a secretto success and outside you know my answer. That is working your ass off.Now, I'm not the smartest kid out there. I went to astate school, drag my way through four years of college, but but I'llwork you you know what I mean, like I got no problem. Evento this day. I'm forty two years old. I usually work sixteen,seventeen hours a day, you know, six, seven days a week,and I travel a hundred and fifty days a year, type of thing.Now with my daughter. I got a seven year old daughter and I keepgoing back to my parents and asking him like Hey, what did you do, you know, like when I was growing up? Did you do anythingspecific to instill a really strong work ethic? And they you, they don't reallyhave any answers. I really wish they did so I could, Icould really translate that to my daughter. But for some reason I've always beendriven to be successful. Right early on,...

...that manifested in money. You know, when I was a kid out my mom said I was always verymoney driven and soar as I wanted to make money so I could buy thethings that I wanted to buy. But as I've matured it's way more aboutsuccess and success is a different definition for everyone. I'm a big goal setter. I'm somebody WHO's focused on Contin and use improvement. You know, Ilive my life by the rule of one percent, which is you set thebar too high but attainable level, and then every you know, once youreach that Bar, Don't just throw up another mountain of climb, but youjust do one percent better every single day and if you can genuinely look atyourself at the end of that day and say I was better today than Iwas yesterday, then it's going to be hard not to be successful. That'sthe mentality I will say, and this I always probably have four or fivecalls a week for people who are thinking about getting into, you know,their own business or being an entrepreneur, and I tell them I go thatfirst client is definitely the key. Early on. Is a challenge, right, because you're trying to find money from any you'll try to just pay thebills, so you'll do any work for anybody. But my recommendation is youfind that one client that has somewhat of a logo and really fits your ICPand you go all in on whatever you're trying and you try to give themand you know, don't give it away for free, but if you haveto, you do. But, you know, discount or whatever, butget testimonial, get a case study from them, because once you have thatlogo, everything else becomes a lot easier. And you said it earlier. Youknow, I train sales force out of cell when Basho Split, Ivividly remember sitting in the board room with the other two trainers who we weregoing to start Kens a partners with, and all the logos, right,Bashaw had some insane logos. It was Gardner forest or CEMANTEC, sales force, sap. I mean for a small little training company, the logos werebananas and us as trainers, we were splitting them up right, because nowwe were taken over, basically, and I remember the other tree trainers.They were battling over all these other companies. I want to see a pin andand all I kept staring at with sales force and I because this isthis was ten years ago, right. Sales Force was the king of theland back that. I mean they still are, but this was when theywere you know, this is when they are right on the cost of us, right, and I'm like, and I knew it and no matter howbad the economy was, I'm like, you know what, that company's arocket ship and I knew it. And so I pretended like I cared aboutthe other companies and, you know, negotiated with the partners about well,you know. And if I'm like all right, fine, as long asI can have sales force, and I got sales for us. And whatI did was I just over service the shit out of them. I didstuff for sales force I would never do for anybody else. You know,for instance, you know I go to Singapore for a day. You know, I leave on Monday here from Boston, I land on Wednesday morning, Itrain on Wednesday, I come home on Thursday. I feel like youstill do that. I think I saw you like walking through the Singapore airporton snapchat or something like that. And yes, guess who that's still for. There you go through sales for us, right, because I knew that ifI got them as my marquee client that everything else would be so mucheasier. And that's what happened. And that's why I live in the SASSworld, because all these little SASS companies want to be like sales force.So when you heard me, you know, going around dream for saying I trainedsales force out of cell to that target audience. Are you shouldn't me. You know, that's a like excute. I mean that's talked about attention grammers, right. I mean that's what I'm looking for, is I'm lookingfor somebody to say what, tell me more about that. And then itled to a really good conversation and kind of where I am today. SoI think a lot of that hard work early on has manifested itself into thebrand and how I'm building it and really only taking also only taking on customersthat I know I can hit a home run with. To your point ofthat first training that you and I did together, that's the what I want. I want reps to walk out of that training going Holy Shit, thatwas the best. I mean, thankfully, and sales training, the bar ispretty low, but you know I want them because if you walk outgoing yeah, and you know it was okay, this is way too smallof a community here to to have that not get around. You know Imean well. And of course the opposite is also true, is that onceyou've got something good going now, business explode. So I want to talkabout a couple themes while we've got time together. One of them is theevolution of sales and marketing in general. Particular is it relates to all ofthese new technologies and how the trade of sales is evolving with the incorporation ofartificial intelligence. Was, I think, is something that you've thought and talkeda lot about. So you know, what should we be thinking of aswe move into two thousand and eighteen and two thousand and nineteen and we've gotall these new tools? Everybody's looking for the silver bullet right, and itfrustrates me because the skill of sales is getting replaced by technology, and sopeople are focusing less and less on the ability to ask questions and relate topeople and they're focusing more of their attention on whatever cool new tool and technologyI can use to send an email. And so I think we need toget a little bit first of all, back to the basics a little biton sales, on what really sales is all about. And couple of thingsas far as what I think we need to be focusing on. First ofall, and I sold this from Gary...

Vander Chuck Right, he talks thatyou know everybody says content is king. Content is king. He says,fine, if content is king, than context is God. And that tome, is sales versus marketing or marketing versus sales. Right, marketing iscontent, sales is context. If we, as sales professionals are not putting anycontext around our content, then we're no different than marketing and I haveno idea why we're getting paid to do what we do right, blasting outtemplaty emails with some of these tools like outreach or sales loft or, yes, we're tout out or whatever it is like. It really drives me crazythat I can even tell when I'm on a sales offt CADEN's versus and outreachKadens these days, for crying out loud. How can you tell them? What'sthe difference? It's the verbiage that they use in the templates, becausetypically what happens is these clients sign up for these tools and they go tooutreach or sales oft and say, Hey, can I see can we know?Because most companies suck at messaging, or early sales messaging. The finewith marketing messaging, but sales messaging their brutal atte and so they'll go tosales loft or outreaches. I Hey, can we see some of your templates, like how you guys do it? And of course you know customer successon sales oft and our reach, like yeah, sure, here you go. And all the companies do is they take those templates, they replace thenames, they tweak up the value proposition, they send them out and they literallypress play. And I don't understand what the difference between that and MarquettoElco, part dot, any one of those is. You know, they'resupposed to be sales efficiency tools, but sales arps are using them the salesautomation tools. And I really do think right now we're in a transition phasewhere, you know I'm going to talk generationally here, like so, I'mforty two, right. We grew up in the numbers game world of sales. It was fullblown boiler room reco style, make hundred, you know that typeof stuff. And so as we've now grown, our generation is grownto be managers and executives and leaders. Look, it's really hard to coachon quality right, but what I can do is I can manage you towardsnumbers right. For me to coach you on the quality of your call andthose type of things. That takes a lot of time and that's, unfortunately, what most managers don't spend any time doing. But I can tell youto make fifty dollars a day. And so we're in this weird world whereeverybody understands qualities. The answer right, like a compass marketing, for example, right, a couple is marketing. Cracks me up because really, whata calibas marketing is is just an admission from marketing that we got to stopspam people. Like we know. It's like it's just more expensive marketing thatthis like oops, we went a little overboard with this whole content marketing thing, like we got to ratchet that back a little bit. But but what'shappening now is that sales reps, if you think of where marketing was five, six, seven years ago, where they were really starting on uptick ofthe spam filter, of the spam, you know hose, if you will. Now Marketing is coming back to you know. Okay, let's let's wratchit it back. Sales Reps are on the upward swing. Now. Nowit's sales reps blasting out all these email us and you can't tell the differencebetween a marketing email and our sales emil anymore. Those fear if context isGod. To your point and we want to get sales people to be better, do you mean just more personalization, you know, create your own templateinstead of the default template that you're going to get from one of these toolsthat helps you? Do you know sales efficiency, or do you mean morethan that? Do you mean incorporating different types of outrage? How can Irep listening to this their process tomorrow by embracing context. It's all, butwhich your self right s in the midmarket, enterprise, those type of things.I'm a big believer in look, I get it right. If itwas up to me, we'd all have half an hour to do research onevery account before we sent an email and me a phone call. That's justnot reality because again, our generation is forcing even though we understand quality,we're still forcing quantity. Right. So what I really recommend is everybody tierout their accounts. Right. You got your tier ones, tier twos andtier threes, and really not just the basic reasons right. Oh, youknow they're in these industries in the size, but what are the nuances there youknow what kind of technologies are they using, whatever competitions in there,and this is where technology is a big benefit, because there's a ton oftools out there. They can give me really deep insights on what really isthis company looks like. Right. I mean tools like siftery and owl orand those type of things are fantastic tools to get the insights on what's happeningin these businesses. So really tearing out your accounts into the tier ones,which is the high quality ones, it's your two's, which is the quantityapproach, and tier threes, which your practice or try things out and thenthey can segment out. That's their approach, right. So the tier ones,that's a tailored approach. I really do recommend sitting down doing research,coming up with five not just doing research for one, you know, sendingone email, but researching the account and finding four, five, six differentthings to say about that account all the same time so you can put togetheryour story, because it is no longer about the one email, the onevoicemail. These days it's about the contact strategy. It's about the story thatwe tell these people, and so you can and you can map that wholestory out in a tailored way to you, but only to your top tier.Like I'm not going to do that for every single account. It's justnot realistic. But with your Tier Two's that's where we can be a littlebit more targeted. So so, tailored at the tier one level, targettedat the tier two level. And when...

I say targeted, let's find sometype of commonality that a group of people have in your database. So,for instance, you know, we could do persona base stuff where, youknow, v piece of sales in the SASS industry, because just on thatalone, right, v piece of sales and assass industry. What I'm goingto do is I'm going to go do some research, open up Google andsay what are the Priorities v piece of sales SASS industry two thousand and eighteen, and do some homework to figure out what these people care about, whatare the challenges today that these people face? And usually you'll read a blog postabout, you know, some common themes of what our challenges and thenyou can craft a message and carve up your value proposition to speak the languageof that person. Right, because because my value to a VP of salesand assass industry that use the sales force is slightly different and my value isto a VP of sales in the manufacturing industry that uses Microsoft Dynamics and ifI know that, I can craft my messaging around that and then send outfifty emails at a time to that specific persona. So that's how we canget volume up there. But that's allows me to put context around it,because it's a persona. Therefore I can share relevant information to that person overto that persona, I can, you know, ask questions that are relevantto that persona. So I think there's some ways that we can. Idon't want to say personalization at scale, because I personally think that's an oxymoron. You can't truly personalize at scale. You can target at scale, youcan create efficiencies that allow you to do personalization more efficiently, but at scale, as far as like blasting out, that's just not the case, becausethere's some say one more like right now. Going back to artificial intelligence, youknow there's some tools out there that are doing quote unquote, personalization skillusing AI, but it's like circain nineteen, it's like linked in circin one thousandnine hundred and ninety nine, because what they're doing is there's no context, right, because they're actually using the email that I train, which isthe whyuy, you know email and the whole concept of the hyy. Nowis hey, I was doing some research on your website. I noticed thishappened. Right. That's the hey trigger. And then the reason that prompted meto reach out to you is because many of our clients leverage our solutionthis way. That's that's your connection right there. And what they're doing isthey're coming up with that value proposition. Hey, here's what we do,and they're using artificial intelligence to do that. First Line of personalization. That firstline of personalization I'm getting some of these is like hey, John,I see you're in Boston. See Food. Recently, people like the Red Sox, and it's like, are you shit me? And then and thenit goes like a hard cut to their value proposition. So it's like,I see you're in Boston. Are you a Red Sox Fan? Where theleading provider? Lah? I'm like, okay, one of the things youI always remember, and I'm going to throw US offball here, but youlove following up, touching, base checking in. If I know anything aboutJohn Barrows, agree or disagree? Yeah, no, least favorite phrases. I'mstill on my crusade, ten years later, to get those phrases out, you know, touching basin, checking out of the most meaningless phrases andsales you when in your cadences. I've always I remember this, though.You am I anchor and saying that your philosophy is don't reference to failed attemptbecause to the point of like crafting the story and one email doesn't cut it. How do you feel about reps that are I mean, I get somany messages where it's I see that you haven't responded, I see that youmay not be interested. Like. That's correct. I have not responded toyou. I'm not interested. Say something interesting. Exactly. No. Ithink, though, that somebody said that's me early to my Chris and neverreference, and the main point of that was when you make a cold call, right say. Never say hey, I've called you five times in thepast. Right, just want to reach out to you again, because look, if I didn't care the first five times, why the hell would Icare now? You know, an email. It's kind of the same thing,and that's where that that's the problem of the cadens, right now,because is what it is is it might be might be one decent email upfront. Okay, when decent email that's somewhat relevant to my role or somethinglike that, but then it's hey, did you get my first email?Bubble in this one up to the top, and then the inevitable break up.Email one, two or three, stuck under a rock. Bullshit.Right, you should, in my opinion, tell that story with a different reasonevery single time. Now you can connect the dots, and that's whygoing and doing all your research at the same time and telling your story allthe same time as important, because then you can lay it out right.You can say, okay, what's my first, second, third, fourth, and how I am going to tie these together? Usually, for meit's something to the effect of Hey, on my first email, it's itwas doing some research. I notice this happened. Love to talk to you. Next one is, as I learned more about Your Business, actually noticethis, which is why I think you know I wanted to talk about thatas I dive deeper into your organization. I know that's so I'm focusing onthe future and and moving forward as opposed to the past. But yeah,I really do strongly believe that you should have a different reason each time.Now, if you have a kick ass like if you did some research andyou found something that was like Holy Shit, like our solution, just as ahome run on that one, and you really craft a well written email, I don't have a problem with at least repeating that once, especially ifyou're using a tool like, you know, some of the email tracking tools,that tells you whether they opened it or not, like if they didn'topen it, feel free to use that again. And you can see I'mback me up. I'm going to flip...

...this over on you for a second. Your svp of sales right, and marking from the chief revenue officer behaves. That's okay, work, John. That's right. Sorry, so it'sokay. I move around a lot. You know that I turn over atthe executive level. But you're a CRO right. Say, when was thelast time you got a thoughtful multi touch contact strategy? That wasn't here toget my first email, but literally told a story that was more than oneor two, it was five, six, seven touches. When was the lasttime anybody reached out to you with a thoughtful multi touch contact strategy thattold a story. The answer is it's very rare and I try to bea nice guy, a positive person, because we're all reaching out to peoplethat we don't know. So I try not to be an asshole. Butcure point. All I get that that's the reason I asked you, becauseall I get is you haven't responded. Seems like now might not be agood time. Before I go, I want to make sure it's like ifthey had just thought, because, by the way, I buy things right, like. It's not that I'm not a good ICP, like I buyshit all the fucking time, but you know, think about what I wantto buy and I'll and also, by the way, like with a croit's super easy, because what do I want? I want leads, Iwant pipeline and I want closed business. And if you can relate your productthoughtfully to what we do at behaviors, which is machine learning and big data, back to helping me drive pipeline, and you can think about the customerswe sell to, which are big investment banks, I will probably be interestedin a phone call. Yeah, and that's my point, right like ithappens so rare and look at I mean, and it's not like you're hiding right. I mean that's the opposite exactly. You're out there, you're doing apodcast for sales hacker. I'm sure there's plenty of people out there rightnow that are listening to this that would love to do business with behaviors andand and you. But yet you don't get thoughtful outreach to you know,and and, by the way, I bet you the last person that didit you remember right. And it's almost like, especially for exactly CEOS andthe views the sales I tell sales arps you want to be the sales repthat that svp or VP wants to hire. So I want to reach out toyou in a thoughtful way and be memorable, because after three, four, five, six touches to an executive with a thoughtful approach, it's almostlike they feel obligated to get back to that person one way or the other. You know what I mean? What it might be. When I wasat the Muse this young man we sold to HR people at the news theysell to hr people and he pasted in, he worked for discover orcus an strpasted in the org chart of Disney all the way up to their HRrow and he said I thought this might be interesting for you because I imagineyou sell two big brands like Disney, based on the fact that I sawthat you sell to all these other brands. That turned out to be like aninety thousand dollar for week sales cycle. So that's what I'm saying. IsI to your point of context right. I mean taking a step back andreally thinking through what are these people care about and the difference between salesand messaging and marketing. That here's another example of context content. That's easy. The webinar email. I'm going to give some to you. Something verytactical to do. I recommend marketing. I wrote a post a long timeago. Let Marketing Market, let's sales sell, right, which means stopputting the sales reps name on the marketing emails. Everybody knows what a marketingemail looks like and everybody knows it's not a sales rep because if you getif Sam, you get ten emails from John Barrows and they're obviously marketing emails. Right. But yet then I decide to go on your website and dosome homework and I send that email to you, like I'm probably already youknow, in thoughtful email. That's I think I'm probably already in the spamfilter. Marketing needs to separate. Have those marketing emails come for VP salesor whatever. But let's talk about a Webinar one, right. There's alwaysthat hey, we got this webin are coming up. What I want todo as a sales rep is I want to be on the marketing list soI know when that email goes out to my audience, and then I wantto have my my tier one accounts by top twenty five list. And I'mgoing to take that email about the Webbin are and I'm going to forward itto you and say, hey, Sam, I'm sure you probably just got thisemail. If I'm not sure if you saw this email from our marketingfirement, we're having this Webin are coming up here soon. The reason Ithought you specifically would be interested in this is is this right? And sothat's all you're doing is put a little bit of context. Now let's takeit on the back end. So now say that Webinar happens and you don'tgo to it. Right, so you might have signed up for it butshe didn't actually attend. Well, I'm gonna then take that and say hey, Sam, thanks so much for sign up the Webinar. I notice youactually didn't get a chance to attend it. Based on what I know about you, though, if you actually start listening to this webinar around minute fifteenand go from minute fifteen to thirty two, like that's where some really valuable stuffis, that I think you and your team might be able to leverage. Here you go, like maybe if a sales report to ever do thatto me, I would literally lose my shit. I'd be like, Ohmy God, Yep, I don't know what you're selling. Let's talk right. You're a busy man, by way. I'm hearing all these messaging chimes.God, yes, someone know it's how good. Before we move offthis topic, because there's a natural thought that I imagine a bunch of salespeople out there thinking. One question I...

...want to ask is, and Iobviously I see it. I'm on your blog right now. It's just coldcalling is not dead, right? What's the role of the telephone in themodern sales world? In your opinion, it's a piece of the puzzle,right. It's no longer want anyone form a communication. It's all of it, right. So it's email, phone, text, you know, social allthat stuff, but phone people. You know, it's funny. Iget our generation. It's we grew up with the phone. We're decision makersright now. So guess what? I like talking on the phone. Iknow the millennial generation, they didn't grow up the fall. They grew upwith it, but they didn't grow up with it as a phone. Andso there's there. It's not in their DNA to typically make phone calls andmost people don't give them the tools and the skills to be effective on thephone. So it ends up being this negative like I don't want to makecold calls and because I have this bad mentality and I haven't gotten any skillsaround it, I then try to make phone calls and I get my asskicked and it doesn't work. So it proves my point. But if youlook at phone, as you know, different people like communicating in different ways. All right, there's there's a whole study on neur linguistic programming around this, if anybody wants to read research at there's a book called selling with anLP, the unfair advantage, and it's about the different types of communicators andthere's visuals auditories and kinesthetics right. Visuals like to see visual things, auditorieslike to hear things and kinesthetics like to touch and feel things. Right.And since you don't know what type of communicator you're dealing with, you gotto mix it up, because if you send five emails to an auditory,your chances of them are spawning drop. Make five phone calls to a kinesthetic, your chances of them are spawning drop. So that's why you have to mixit up. And for me, I don't get callbacks. Okay,like, if I get a call back, I legit have a heart attack.But the reason I make phone calls is because every once in a whileto get through, and I think voice is something you need to practice andget really good at, because it's where the future is going anyways, withall the Alexa skills and all that stuff. But also I leave voice mails,not because I expect callbacks, but because that when I leave voice mailstied with my contact strategy, my email responses go up. I think that'ssuch an important point. I mean, I can tell you that at thelast few places I've worked, not this place, there's this idea, whyare we doing a call blets, the telephone doesn't work and it's like no, that's not the point. It works in context with all of the othercommunication channels. There's not one thing that works anymore exactly, and that's why, you know, it's all given a get against some tactical stuff here forthe for the like my favorite way of running a call blots. The problemis is most people, like when I walk into organizations and they have likecall blets days, I'm like, Oh God, like Gross, like I'msorry, there's not enough to bolt out there to get me hyped up.You can't do it all day. You do it for an hour, anhour right, so power hours. But the problem is at most sales repswhat they'll do is they'll just get their list and they'll start calling. AndI don't know about you, Sam, I am not good enough to calla VP of sales in the SASS industry, a crow in the manufacturing industry,a CEO and the healthcare industry and have relevant, good conversations with eachof them. With that, if I'm calling all over the place, Ihave to be generic with my approach. I have to have a generic elevatorpitch and I have to ask generic questions, unless you're super smart you can bethat dynamic, which I don't know too many people at are. Butif I call every crow in the healthcare industry, I can come up witha message that's specific to them based on what I learn about them and dosome research and I can come up with two or three questions that are relevantto them that make it sound like I know what I'm talking about. Soinstead of saying hey, tell me about your priorities and getting the generic answerthat that deserves, I say hey, Sam, you know what we're typicallydealing with crows in the you know behavior, you know Ai Industry, and thatI was wondering. Typically they're telling us that the tough pritors X,Y Z are those yours right, even if that's not, even if theyaren't. Like the fact that I kind of showed you I know your worlda little bit, tells me, you know, opens up the conversation andthen I might have a case study or a story to tell you based onanother client that's similar to you. With that, now I hammer the phones. Two Thousand and thirty forty dials and I can bang out twenty and anhour and try that approach and, and this is the big thing I reallyrecommend everybody think about, which is somebody asked me, John, now thatyou're forty two, if you go back and tell your twenty two year oldsolf something, what would it be? Number one answer to that was ABsplit test. Right. In split test everything you do. So if you'regoing after CE ROWS in the financial services industry, come up with two differentmessages to see rows in the Financial Services Industry Make Twenty phone calls with thisapproach, me twenty phone calls without approach and see which one yields a higherresponse rate. Right. And that way you can put it into a cadence, you can put it into a contact strategy and all that other stuff andfigure out what works and iterate and going back to that one percent, gettingone percent better every day. If I make fifty dolls in a day anddon't get any meetings, that's a terrible day. But if I make fiftydials and make twenty five with this approach and twenty five with that approach andI still get no meetings, that's actually not a bad day because I justfigured out two approaches that don't work. Now tomorrow I'm going to try acouple new ones, and that's how phone and our call blitz at things isa great part of an overarching contact strategy.

So I last point I'll make onthis is that's why I bothers me with sales training companies out there whoare like only social, right, social. You know, phones, dead emails, that shut up. It's not you know, it's your target audience, and that's the other thing. Is like no know your target audience.You know, I don't Groun. I'm a forty two year old man onSnapchat, like, I don't know what I'm doing on Snapchat, but ahuge part of my audience, twenty two to twenty eight year old kids,is on snapchat or instagram stories at this point. So I have to bethere because that's where they are. So I was going to correct you aboutsnapchat in the movement instagram stories, but you corrected yourself. So there yougo. Yeah, kind of screwed them all. Specific voicemail that you leavetell the audience what. Yeah, it doesn't start and it's it's probably thehardest thing we train, which is it doesn't start with the hey, thisis John Barrows from pere bars consulting right, because ninety percent of the time whensomebody, if they listen to the voice mail, ninety percent of thetime they're going to barlee it right after that because they they're think they knowthat. If they know you, they think they know you and if theydon't know you, they don't care. So what we start off with itis going back to the reason for my call, right. So this iswhat replaces touching base and checking in, where we say hey, Sam,the reason for my call today. I was on your website. I noticeyou're doing some really cool stuff in these areas and I want to talk abouthow our clients are leveraging our solution to address those challenges that you just fait, you talked about right there. Could you call me back at six seven, five two nine seven, two seven one. Oh, by the way, this is John Barrows with Jay Barrows Consulting. Six one, seven,five, two nine seven, two seven one. So you start with thereason for my call and then you and whatever that is, and then youback it up with your name. Is what it does. Is there's firstof all, there's a pattern interrupt factor there, right, because every singlevoice mail sounds exactly the same. And then you come in with hey,Sam, the reason for my call? What right? So it's different.Second is it literally forces them to listen to the value proposition right like,because everybody wants to know who it is before they hang out that phone.So it's like, I'm damn it, who is this? I should Iknow you guys did the and in the third benefit is it you know,and I was joking, if you screw up halfway through, you can hangup and they have no idea who you are. That's that's a new onethat I very much appreciate. So that's the fun part. But it's hard. But I'll tell you right now. It took me a couple call blitzhas to get that one really to be tight. But man, once ithappens, who my calls were? You know, voicemails, twenty thirty seconds. I had more confidence on the phone. I was getting callbacks every once ina while. So I really recommend that structure. Like pick your intro, what your reason, what your call to action and then your contact information. I think that is that is awesome advice. As usual, we've onlygot a few more minutes. So the last question I have on sort oflike process stuff and then I might ask you so you can be thinking aboutbooks that we should read or influences, you know, paying it forward,sort of sharing the love with other people that that you think are doing greatwork, you know, in the broadly defined sales space. But before Iask that, you talk about Tier One, two, three accounts, and youknow the example you gave about the Webinar, I imagine meaning the exampleof, like, watch this thing from fifteen to thirty two minutes, becausethat's for you, Mr Vp of sales or MRS VP of sales, ormsis. Some reps are out there saying, John, I don't have the timeto do what you are asking me to do. So how do youthink about structuring your day so that you can get all of the things youwant done done? You know, I always challenge that. I don't havea time. I call bullshit on that all day long. I don't knowevery time, like Reps. so I'm You guys are too busy, right, sure, okay, and I open up my calendar and I'm like,okay, do me. I favorite tell me somebody and hear whose calendar ismore ridiculous. I'm not saying that to brag by any stretch. Trust me, I wish it was. I was less, but I travel three daysa week and I have Mondays and two Mondays and Fridays to usually do whatI do, and usually it's about fifteen meetings every day, every half hourin their back to back to back to back to back. But I stillprospect every day right because and all it is is figuring out a replacement.So, for instance, I used to get up in the morning and checkmy fantasy leaves and get all pissed off about that type of crap or whatever, and what I've done now is I've replaced that with my morning routine ofchecking data feeds on my top to your accounts and writing two or three reallyhigh quality emails every single day so I can get that muscle move in right. A lot of it has to do with goal setting and blocking and tackling. You know, people are just super inefficient with their time because they makea phone call, they send an email, they go to the bathroom, theyyou know, warm up their coffee, they talk about the game, theysend another email, they read a proposal. I mean that's a reasontime management's a problem. Let's put it this way. You tell me you'rea good multitasker. I'm telling you you're very inefficient what you do. Yeah, multitasking has been debunked, of course. I mean there's a book called themyth of multitasking. It's total bullshit. And so and also, momentum meansa lot in sales, right, there's other studies to talk about.If you have momentum doing something and you stop for any reason, I thinkit takes somewhere between eight and twelve minutes to get back to where you werewhen you re engage. So that's I think about it. Right, makingcold calls, right, I make a cold call, three, four,five, six calls, I get a...

...good conversation. Somebody says semi information, I stop everything I'm doing. I said this nice custom piece of information, like I've never sent it before my life, and then when I hitsend, I kind of feel like I did something right. So I getup, stretch out a little bit where, you know, warm up the coffeeand I just killed my momentum. So here's another you know, nuggetfor everybody. When I sit them, when somebody says Sendi Information, whenI'm doing a call blets. My questions are what, when, why?What information would you like to see? When would you like to see itand why? And I'll usually preface it. Hey, is it okay if Iget it to you by the end of the day? Sure, okay, cool. And then I keep making calls and I schedule an activity tosend information at the end of the day, because that way I can keep mymomentum right. So my biggest recommendation for everybody is, first of all, get maniacal about goal setting. SMART, specific, measurable, attainable, realistic, can timely. Set goals every day. Everybody likes cross and stuffoff a list, right, so make yourself feel good, right. Soput some the list down, cross some things off, focus on the bigstuff. You got to get away early. I was just having this conversation aboutthis, you know, getting the boulders out of the way. Iforget who the conversation was, but it's you know, in a jar youput big rocks and you say, Oh, is it full? Well, yeah, but then you put pebbles in, like okay, as a full now, and then you put sand in, right, and then it fills itall up. So the idea is to get your rocks out of theway early, right, so that you can feel accomplished, and then tackleyour pebbles and and your sand towards the end, and that's prioritization right.Important stuff first, second, third, and then block and tackle your day. I recommend everybody do things in our chunks, doing hours without this activityand hours without active as example, to all your research for your accounts atthe same time, because you can get very efficient with your research right.Make all your calls at the same time, so and all your emails, thosetype of things. So if you do things in our chunks and giveyourself breaks in between and you set goals and prioritize them, you have achance at it and you'll be way more efficient than just going throughout your day. Let's put it this way. You don't have a plan going into yourday, good luck, you know, you might be successful, but you'regoing to walk home. This is a brutal profession in general, sales,and there are days where, if you haven't really planned out your day andset some goals and stuff like that, there are days, weeks, monthsthat could go by. We're now all of a sudden, you're just goingto measure yourself on on you hitting your quota. That's a that's a brutalexistence right there. I like having a little wins along the way to keepme motivated here, to make sure that I can stay sane. Yeah,absolutely. Last question on this stuff. What time do wake up? Wakeup at six o'clock. These days I'm trying to get back into working out, but yeah, six o'clock, and I usually grab my iphone first andforemo was check out, see if there's any crazy stuff and and then usually, as these days, exactly, you know just if there's been like majorfires, and then I do if you push ups it ups and go getmy dunks coffee, then come back and do my routine of checking through mydata feeds and then kind of start my meetings. That around nine o'clock.Cool books we should read, people we should know about. In Our lastfew minutes together, this has been an amazing conversation, but if you wantit to point a and a few directions, to sort of keep following the breadcrumb trail, where should we go? Yeah, I mean so there's somethere's some tools, but you know, I just got this one Scott McGregorover at standing oh. You know that book? Scott and Gregor's probablyone of the works at. Try Something New Right. You put together abook of it's called Standing Oh, which is a bunch of super successful peoplethat talk about who in their lives deserves a standing oh. And I'm justbig into the the positivity right now and trying to spread some good will becauseI just think there's so much negativity going on right now that we need toproactively thank people and appreciate where we are in a lot of cases. SoI'm a huge fan of that book. All revenue goes to charity on thatone as well. And then, you know, I mean obviously sales hacker. I think Max is doing some fantastic stuff. I love what Gong anddrift and those blogs are doing because there's some really cool insights there and they'rereally trying to change the game as well. You know drift arm and over adrift is is real. I had him on my podcast a little whileago, and they're trying to not only upend marketing but they're trying to upendsales to and taking a really unique and different approach there. I Love NegotiationNinja. If you heard of this guy, Oh man, so negotiation Ninja.He's got to get passed on me for not knowing. Well, wecan google it. It's all guys, so go, which is literally GoogleNegotiation Ninja. It's one of my favorite podcasts right now because what he's doing. You got to get them on for sales haccer, because he comes fromthe procurement side. So, my God, that is amazing, exactly right.So I when he brought me on his podcast, I'm like, allright, Kyle, you and I go in toe to tell right now.You know, after we get him on the PODCAST, we're going to torturehim today and like, I absolutely hate you. We got a blast,right because he was telling us what procurement thinks about and how they negotiate,and you know, it's kind of like the magician showing showing the tricks.So he's one I would totally recommend following because he's got some real and youknow, the Gong one is really cool because all of their stuff is basedon data. So their blog is literally one of my favorites because it's purelybased on the data, not your gut,...

...not your feelings, and I thinkwe need to leverage date a lot more of these days. So thoseare the ones I would pay attention to. That sounds good. If we wantto get in touch with you, if we want to hire j BarrowsConsulting, if you want us to engage with you in some way, whatare your preferred mechanisms? Let's give you your last opportunity to tell us something. I appreciate it that you know if you go to the website J Barrowscom, you'll find it all. So I get my gram, twitter and snapchatas John M as a Michael Barrows, all one word and I answer questionson that all all day long for reps who have questions. Our facebook groupis killing it. We got to make it happen. facebook group on ourpage where you know a ton of members who are really, really actively engaged, and Morgan and I are moderating that, you know. And then always youcan email me or hit me up on Linkedin. It's John at JBarrowscom and I really do also recommend following Morgan. So, Morgan Ingram.I hired him about this point, about nine months ago, ten months ago, and the kids killing it. He just went to India for the firsttime. His personal brand, if anybody is out there, I was twentyfive years older in that range and wants to see what a personal brand buildingdoes for a career fall Morgan, because you know that kids on a rocketship right now and I'm happy to have on my team. So those arealways that you can get some for you on my website. has so muchfree content we put most of it out there for free, so you cango check that out too. Awesome. John, is great talking to youas always and I'm sure we'll be working together soon. So thanks for yourtime. Were catching up SAM. Appreciate Him. I folks, is Sam'scorner. Thank you for listening. Another great conversation, this time with ourgood friend John Barrows, one of the most wellknown sales trainers, sales thoughtleaders in the start up ecosystem, as he said, the guy that teachessales force how to sell. There are always good tips and tactics within thecourse of a given John Barrows training session and he referenced a few of themon on our podcast. So let me go through a couple things I thinkit's important to remember. One of them is just make sure you're incorporating thephone. The purpose of the telephone isn't necessarily to isolate that one channel andsay the phone works or doesn't work. It works in context with all ofyour other communication channels. So we've got to think multimedia when we're doing acadence, when we're doing outreach to folks, and a has to include email.It has to include voicemail, it has to include phone call without leavinga message. It has to include a linkedin message but also looking at theirlinkedin profile as one of the touch points. So use the telephone. It worksin conjunction with everything else. I think Derek grant in an earlier podcastsaid the sales offt has done some research and they've identified that it's the voicemailfirst, plus a follow up email, that gets the highest response rate.So that's one thing to keep in mind. And then when you're leaving the voicemail, don't just say your name high it's Sam Jacobs from behaviors. SayThe reason for my call is Bubba Baba and have your name and the phonenumber and your name is sandwiched between the phone number twice. So repeat thephone number twice but the name in the company only once. And you startedoff with the reason for my call. Is. So those are some strategiesand I guess the final piece is just make sure that it's personalized. Blockout your day. There's no reason why you can't have a list, asJohn says, of Tier One accounts. You mentioned the number twenty five.Maybe make it five to ten every single month that you can isolate, knoweverything there is to know about those folks and make it your mission in lifethat you're going to get a meeting. Don't just drop everything into a cadenceor an automated sequence. Make sure that you're personalizing it and that you're doingthoughtful, constructive outreach, and that is what will get you a response.All you have to do is use empathy, to put yourself in the shoes ofthe buyer and you will get a response. You just have to thinkabout it. So this has been Sam's corner and thank you so much forlistening. I'll talk to you next time. To check out the show notes,see upcoming guests and play more episodes from our incredible lineup of sales leaders, visit sales hackercom and head to the PODCAST TAB. You'll find the podcaston itunes or Google play. I find this part strange to read. Becauseyou're listening to the podcast, so you know where the podcast is. Butanyway, that's where you'll find us. ITUNES, Google play, spotify,any other place the podcasts appear. If you enjoyed this episode, please shareit with your peers. Doesn't have to be your peers. Share it withanybody, you don't care. We just want you to share it. Pleaseshare it on linked in, twitter or elsewhere. Imagine elsewhere is facebook orInstagram, but I think linkedin is probably the best place. And then ifyou want to get in touch with me, find me on twitter. I'm atSam F Jacobs. What at Linkedin? At linkedincom in, Slash Sam FJacobs. Once again, a huge shout out to our sponsors. Ifyou haven't visited our sponsors, the the reason that we can bring all theseguests on. They turn the lights on for the PODCAST and turn the earbudson, or are pods whatever you're listening to this on. So here's ourtwo sponsors. 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...effectively engage prospects to drive more pipelineand close more deals. Thank you for listening. I will see you nexttime.

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