The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

23. Optimizing Sales Productivity to Drive Exponential Growth w/ Doug Landis

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Doug Landis is a Growth Partner at Emergence Capital and on E23, he chats about his top strategies to improve sales productivity. Tune in!

One two one twe three fon high folks welcome to the Sales Hackerpodcast super excited to feature Doug Landus on our show this week, Wi'lltalk to dug in a little bit. This is your host Sam Jacobs, an the founder ofthe New York revenue. Collective. If you don't know what the revenuecollective is, we are a group of VP and above sales leaders and marketingleaders right now in New York, we're also waunching London and a few othercities that come together to share best practices and to encourage each other'sprofessional development. So when I say that I'm the founder of that group,that's what we do and then my day job is I'. The chief Revenue Officer of anamazing company called behayvox. Now this week on the podcast we've got twoamazing sponsors. The first is one that we've been working with for a littlewhile now, they're called aircall an aircalls TA phone system designed formodern sales team. They seamlessly integrate into your crm. They eliminateall of that crappy data entry that you always have to deal with and they giveyou greater visibility into how your team is performing through advancereporting, nd analytics. So when it's time to scale, you can add new linesand minutes not days or or weeks, and you can use incall coaching to reduceramptime for you. New Reps they're rolling out a new sales module thessummer, which we're all really excited about, and you can visit air calledthat iol for sales tacker to see why companies like Uber, Donam, Brad Streetpipe drive and thousands of others trust air call for their most criticalsales conversations. So that's Aur call and then our second sponsor isoutreached ot IO. They are the leading sales engagement platform, outreachtriples the productivity of sales teams and empowers them to drive predictableand measurable revenue growth by prioritizing the right activities andscaleing customer engagements with intelligent automation. Outreach makescustomer facing teams more effective and improves his ability into whatreally drives results. Cop over to our reachd on io for IDs Li saleszacker tosee how thousands of customers, including cloud Dere, glassdoor, pandorand zoo relian out reachd, deliver higher revenue for Sales Rath. Sothanks for listening Sam Jagobs and let's listen to our interview with dogLandis from emergence capital. Folks, it's Sam Jacobs, welcome to theSales Hacker podcast, I'm incredibly excited for my guest today. My guesstoday is a guy that a lot of folks in the starnup world know. I first met him.I think on a phone call when I think Doug was working at box and he I wasworking at axile and he was kind enough to sort of give some tips. But let metell you about Doglandis he's currently a growth partner at a merchant'scapital, one of the best vcs that I know of in the valley and investing incompanies all over the country in the world prior to joining emergence whereDogs Ben, I think, he'll correct me, but about a year and a half Doug spenttwelve years driving sales, productivity and efficiency inside ofsome of the world's top technology companies, including box sales forceand Google. So, prior immediately prior to emergence, he held the coveted titleof Chief Storyteller and vpos sales, productivity and enablement at box. I'msure he will tell us what that means and then, before that he was leadingcorporate sales productivity at sales force. I believe in looking at hislinkedin that he got started many years ago at Oracle before finding his wayinto start up world and we're so excited to have you doug so welcome tothe show. Thank you. That's that's. Quite the Intero. Your ouns, like a do,are a very important person. So I don't know about that. I think Ithink half of my half of my success is. Is Luck? The other half is skill. Well,that sounds like you've been reading this book thinking in bets by any Duke,but at least you attribute some portion of your success to luck, which is,unlike most people in the world, absolutely well look I mean at the endof the day it's about our people, it's about our network, it's about who weknow and how we can be helpful if you canl go into every connection like Samyou and I we go in every connection with. How can I be helpful to youbecause at the end of the day, it's going to come full circle? Well, thisis not part of like the scripted interview, but you are reiterating mylife motto, which is my whole theory in life is how can I be helpful, and it'salso like long term greedy, because if...

...you're somebody that always helpspeople, then by definition they come to you for help and you become influentialso til I selfinterested and Carmic N. I cin o f the Carme a little bit morethan this selfinterest. At least I like to think so, but yeah you're totallyRIS, but they're aline, they converge Soso, it's a useful benefit, yeah, sowalk us through. You know we're obviously going to hear a lot aboutwhat you're doing for your portfolio companies and where you spend time atemergence, but in many ways it seems like you've led a pretty for sort of asales, professional storied life, a charmed life in the sense that you'vebeen at some of the best most coveted, most prestigious companies. How didthat happen and tell us about sort of coming out of Undergrad? What was yourbackground where you from and then walk us through a little bit of the paththat led you to emergence over the last? You know twenty or so years? Yes, yes,so a large part of my path to success is luck and then, once I get involvedin an organization, then that is all on me. That's the skill part right, so Igrew up in Poalto when you grew up in Palata. You kind of growing up in thebackyard of technology, although when I was growing up in Pawoatit, was still alittle college town before all the millionaires kicked out the Everday Fokand then now, by the way, the billionaires who kicked out themillionaires, which is why I could never live in Powe all do again. Butwell maybe you can still be a billionaire at some point oil, but Idon't to go back to Haao. But but the truth is it's almost like. If you, youknow, you grew up in La, and you know you just kind of around Hollywood. Ifyou grow up in New York and you'R, around finance or AD TEC grow up inChicago and you're ound Texhtales when you're around it, you tend to just kindof be drawn to it right. So I went to the University of Oregon. Was PoliticalScience Major was going to go law school? My father, who was a lawyer,talked me out of it. Our whole family at the core were all sellers, and Ithink I just I started selling when I was selling newspapers is a little kidand it's just kind of been in my blood and, as I got involved, my first jobright out of college was actually working for black and decker sellingpower tools and accessories. Like Oh wow, I don't think that's on ear linkedO. No, it's not it's, and it was the best job ever because they literallygave me a company car and a bunch of products and incredible training backat headquarters. But then I covered from Canada to Mexico and I would justdrive by a hardware stores but not walk up, talk to the owner and try and sellthem power tools and accessories. It was intane. IAS like that has to belike best crash course and sales possible yeah, because what do you haveto do? You have to be able to assess a business in a matter of moments. You'Vgot to be able to read people. You have to understand how to articulate valueto someone that's running a store in the middle of you know in the middle ofbfe, where you know they're, not really thinking about margin, they're thinkingabout just thertheir, happy customers, and you have to be able to do all thaton the fly and be able to articulate why our products are better ordifferent and what it actually means for the business and yeah it's beingable to have a business conversation instantly is really difficult and infact it's one of the things that I think is often lacking in the world ofsales sales. People are so quick to like focus on okay prospecting, skillsand negotiation skills, kind of like ther core selling skills. But one ofthe thing, that's that I find is often missed, is just how to have a businessconversation, how to go to Max and look at his business e sales tacker and go.What does he really do? And how does he generate my many people that sea? Iknow what you doahe makes a lot of money at it, but but being able to tessthat. So then, I can then connect who I am and what our company does and thevalue that we deliver to Max, and if is there training that you that youespouse or drill into people to enable them to which is it's all sort of likea form of empathy? It's coming into a situation and putting yourself in theother person's shoes. Are there skills or tactics or traits that you that youuse? You just took the word right, Ovo, my mouth, I don't care what methodologyyou buy into challengers spin, they hav Sandler. I don't really give a shitabout any of that truth is tare all the same at the core. What truly helps youdifferentiate yourself and your company is your ability to be empathetic andempathy is demonstrated in your ability...

...to articulate what you understand aboutthe person that you're meeting with about their world their role, their job,their industry, their company and everything that you know about them soactually being empathetic is the core of being able to actually have abusiness conversation. If you think about it, it's also getting your NBA, Ithink, is helpful because it helps you to think through like how to businessesthink about making money and gross margin and their competitors and growthand scale and expansion ETCA. If you haven't, had that opportunity to dothat. Well, go try and start a company see what it's like Okit's hard. It'sreally hard. I've started three in my ower the course of my life and I'm notgonna lie. It is incredibly difficult because tha, what you realize is theworld of a startup and the founders of all the companies that might belistening to this podcast today, at the end of the day, it's about tradeoffs. Ionly have so much money and so much time, and what are we going to focus on?Are we going to focus on building these capabilities, we're going to focusingon going in a new market? Are we going to focus on going up market but focuson hiring like I got to do all these things, and I need to do them all now,but you can't right. So how do you? How do you make those trade offs and whenyou understand that it makes it easier and easier to understand what someonewho is a business owner goes through like a on Toun Yoursell to Andeenand?The funny thing is: Is You may think, like okay, I'm trying to sell theOracle as a potential customer they're huge? You know they're one of thebiggest oftfor companies in the world. So how do I understand what theirbusiness drivers are as an organization what they care about? What they'retrying to accomplish as a company well go read their Tencor, their tenq. Youknow Larry when e, he does his earnings calls we'll say here's what we're fouson O. No, it's funny! There are times when people tried to sell the box, andyou know I'd be like I would love to buy your product, but we arehyperfocused on getting to become a cashal positive. That means we're notspending any money across the board. I mean no matter how good your product is.I cannot get any budget for this unless I'm replacing something that ar we'vealready allocated budget for right, and so, if you understood that, then youwould change the nature of our conversation. If you were trying tosell it, tell me when I was a box. The number of people that don't take theopportunity to read a tink is always surprising to me, because there is somuch information in there. That is just so valuable to just put yourself in themind of the business exactyeah, but I think that I think one of thechallenges is people, don't know what to look for when you're reading thatwhat Shoald we look for, I mean you're looking for insight as far as what thecompany is focused on. What what you know are they growing in terms ofnetnew logos, or are they growing through margin? Are they growingthrough expansion? What's their turn, look like what new markets are, theyare they potentially targeting or what new products are they delivering andhow well are they actually selling those products you're thinking about,overall, their ability to execute in the market? Are they in? First place intheir market, are they in third place and what are they trying to do get tosecond, and are they trying to get to second through mergers and acquisitions,or are they trying to get to second through new products or new pricing?What matters for them, because every single person of the organization,their job, is measured against what the companies overall objectives are. Yeah,I mean it's a great insight, so you're a black and decker you're drivingaround the country from Mexico to Canada, which is by the way, that's alot, that's a territo for yea, and then how did you end up it salesforce? I think the you know, because I feel like you were at sales force. Idon't know if Earon Ross was there at the same time, but sort of like youwere at two of the archetypical SASS businesses, with sales force being likethe archetype during their period of maximum growth, maximum kind ofemergence and visibility. How did you end up there yeah so funny Ouf AaronRoss and I both grew up n Elato? Ironically, so maybe there's somethingabout Poweto, but so it was it's a crazy journey, so ias it black anddecker. They move me all over the country and they wanted me to go backto eadquarters. I was like I want to get back to talking about technologybecause I love it. I grew up around it and so ike. I moved back to the Barryto go work at Oracle and Funy enough. I was a field seller at black and deckerColinon lows corporate right, calling...

...on these big, huge hardware chains, andthen I go back to Oracle to be an SDR. Ayou are what had to wear a suit, howto get up, and you know, Gettin the office five. Thirty every day, fivethirty in the morning every day how to make a hundred calls a day, and if wedidn't hit that number, we were worried that we w're going to get fired. Yes,sometimes we game Thi System. We were calling fax machines, but back then youcouldn't really tell it. Was a total Gri and they made they made. You were ase to do that. Yeah. There was I I mean, look there's this funny thing about.You know, look good, feel good, feel good. Do it right, there's this likewhen you're jeans, the Tshirt you're comfortable yeah, you may becomfortable but there's an element of like when you're dressed up and you'repolished. Your game feels a little bit more polished when you're when you'recasual your game feels a little bit more casual. It's just something thatihave experienced as a professional, and I certainly don't dress up. Youknow all day every day now you're a pretty sharp dresser, though I think laI ia rain maker, you ere Lookin Petti, but it kind of matters right. It's youknow. People Make Impressions Unfortunatel by what you say, how youlook and what you do and and all those things add up- I'm not trying to pullthe wooll over somebody's eyes, but it certainly does matter yeah. I agreewith you, so you were an st art ORC, I didn't even know they had strs but yeahto the whole machine at sales force built. Sorry Aaron Ross. You can't takecredit for this because Ilfore Bild started it oracle and where do youthink mark got it? He got it from Bray Lane. Raylane BILTTE, SDR EBR insidesales, because t at or an oracle is str. And then you went to nt sales, whichwas selling Microsoft version of their database and then you went and you soldmiddleware, and then you moved up to selling applications and you know fulldatabase or detabase an application, so they built that machine and then marktook that over to to sales force. I didn't know that I just wrote downRaylaand I'm going to find that guy and get him on this podcast. If he stilllove yeah yeahe is I mean gray was you know? Ray was was lary's right, her manyeah, so you learn the tradeed Aracle and then maybe sales forse comescalling or mark knows that you know that's the place to go to get all ofhis proteges. Is that what happened? How you made the mid Wellm Yeah? Therewas some startups in between there that I had started and then, of course I dida bunch of reality. TV shows totally different story. We're not going totalk about that today. We have to talk about Thatvr Thyeah, I've done for inmy life, which is kind of crazy. These were your concepts or you were like onthe real world. At some point I just hae to go back yeah I was I was aparticipant or more sports oriented thand. They were kind of datingOrientat. AL though I did one of those we don't like to talk about that atparties, but beside the point I was kind of like effing around. If you weretryin to decide what I wanted to do and then I actually ended up a google whichwas again four to iis, because I had a friend of mine that was working thereand she's like hey. You know, you've got all this great sales, knowledge andexperience, and at the time you know post start up failure. If you willcause. I was like trying to figure out who I was and what I wanted to do withmy life when I grew up. That's when I realized like this world of acceleratedin performance of sales people, because I love the art and the science andselling always have it's been in my blood and this idea of like how do wemake sales people smarter, better and faster what they do with something thatI just kept falling back on, and so then I had the opportunity to go run,training and Development Overi Gool, and when I was a google, the one thingthat I learned is at the time it was very much an engineering drivenorganization. So if you're in sales they're like yeah, you don't reallymatter because all Yo have juis pick up the phone and say hi. I work for Googleand people will talk to you wasn't really the case, but that was certainlythe perception of organization and then again I had some friends that wereworking in sales force and an opportunity came up there. They calledme, and I was like well it's the best selling organization in the world, I'mgoing period and that's how it all started onfold, and so you know we weretalking about this before we hit record, but your title at Sales Force wasdirector of corporate sales, Productivity Yeah and you knowmeanwhile, over the last I don't know. Fifteen twenty years there's been thisconcept of enablement. That's emerged. How are those are those things the samething? Are they different things walk...

...us through specifically whatproductivity means and how you think it relates to enablement? Yes totally. So,first of all, I'm just going to say this right now, I'm on a mission, stopsaying ennablement till enablement doesn't exist, look up an ament. I wentto dictionarycom type on the word and naval mine. It's not even a word itdoesn't show up. Is that true? It is true. Literally I went towon thisbefore we got before we hit record. I looked up enablement dickonarcom Googledoesn't exist. So why do we say it? What is the DAE it mean? So when I gotto sales force first, it was my title was like like director of salesaffectiveness, and I was working under the education team. It was like whatare we doing here need to be under sales and doesn't make any sense, andeventually we found our way under sales, and at that point we coin the termsales predictivity. It didn't exist before, and so what are you doingdifferently than the Mana? Do you work alongside the frontline manager? Youknow whow. Is that oe Relateyeah solemal kind of explain- and this iswhy I get on this like pedestal, about endablement to me and Alemate. By theway it's a marketing term marketing came came up with it, because, whenyou're, enabling a salesperson in my mind, you are youare giving them assetsof information, intelligence that you can use on a phone call right, so I'm enabling you with competitiveterasheets, I'm enabling you with industry, Intel I'm enabling you withlive with with assets. It's a marketing function for sales people. I love itit's necessary, but fundamentally the way I look at the world is, I am in thebusiness of how do we accelerate the performance of our sales organizationor anybody that's really customer facing for that matter, because sellersnowadays, it's not a singular function where I've got a physical item and Isell it to you and that I'm done the reality is is we're all revenue driversif your customer facing right where our job is to earn our customers businessevery single month and that Isas? That is what rerecurring reven, is all about-that implicit promise, a hundred percent right and so so to do that.We're all involved, parketing sales customer success, support we're allinvolved in that relationship, including product and engineering forthat matter, and so the idea is how to weed and eliminate the things that getin the way of a salesperson's ability to actually find the right. People havethe right conversations, uncover and create opportunities and close dealsfaster and and intern m the revenue right to me. That is ultimately what wewant to do is we want to incrementally increase the productivity which you candefine is dollars per head for every single rap, and so how do you? How doyou do that right so part of it? Is You have to unpack it? So when you know wewhen it boks, it would be this phrase it to like. Oh Re, productivities down,it's like Oh shit, because everone would look at me at I'm like Wel on asecond. I can't control everything, because what you have to think about iswhat repredictivity is down. Is it? Is it a sales execution challenge meaning?Do they not have the right skills to actually go out and do their job? Is itactually kind of more an operational challenge, which is they don't have theright territories? Theyr, don't have the right quotas, sales forces set upincorrectly. We don't have the right data in sales foruce or is it a marketproblem, meaning the market isn't mature enough? There's competition inthe market, our pricing or packaging is 't appropriate. We're not doing enoughfrom an air coverage perspective to actually educate the market, so thatthere's some level of awareness of who we are what we do right. So there's somany things that affect a repsibility to do their job and in the world ofsales preductivity. It is fundamentally anchored around how do we help our reps?Do a better job, marketing and sales enable man content is a part of that,but it's not the whole thing. I so. If you're thinking about hate it the kings of or the the emperorswhoever it is, that is h. The largest champion of enablement will provide avery expensive but kind of abstract definition and what you just did aroundAnablem was actually very helpful because you're like these are thethings that you do. You create...

...competitive terrcheets. You create theright marketing material right so applying that same kind of tacticallends to productivity and thinking about enablement as one part of it.What are the common things that are in the way of sales, people beingproductive and effective? And what are the ways that you help solve thoseproblems? There's a number of things right, so it starts with onboarding.How do we get our sales people ready to have the right conversations s quicklyright, and so what does that mean? That means they have to understand theproduct that don't understand the market. They have to understand theirmessage: thoir competitors, the pricing rights S, that's a lot of Intel, that'sa lot of knowledge that they need to be able to consume comprehend andreoriente right or shall we say redeliver so there's an element ofonboarding, there's an element of certification, there's an element ofmessaging there's, an element of demoing, so theres skills. There'sknowledge, there's tools associated with that right. So, if you think aboutthe world of predictivity, you can actually think about it in terms ofskills, tools and knowledge. I put sales entablement because most of thatscontent in that tool bucket right, you coul, even oriented around e some sortof knowledge, but knowledge to me is also how you get access thatinformation. So is your sales for set up properly? Are you? Are youleveraging the right tools like grew or like leare, Cor omin ticking? To gosomething to serve up that information to you when you need it, I actually, Isaid something incorrectly, if you think about it, skills tools and allthis tools are all the Grus, an the you know, the learn corers the mine, tiplesand sales loft of courses. If you will the tool of the sales forces, the toolsthat I use to help me do my job. Unfortunately, we have tool fatigue andwe likely have too many tools and it's hard to understand the WARCLOBE, how toleverage all these tools, because sometimes, if I'm spending more time onthe tools and I'm not spending enough time in front of my customers well thanthat's an issue right, that's a rope yeah! So it's so if you think aboutpredictivity, there's one way to measure which is dollars per head:Perep like how many dollars am my generating out of each head. It's alsoa matter of thinking about. Well, how much time are they actually able tospend in front of customers right so on average in our world? Unfortunately,twenty five percent of a repstime is actually spent engaged selling. So whatare they doing with the other? Seventy five percent of their time, they're inone on one's team meetings, trainings theiare meeting with their sce they'remeeting with their CSM they're strategizing about deals, theirprospecting or they're, researching they're, doing a lot of things. They'relearning they're, studying the products right, they're getting trained an. Sohow can we remove the friction from all the things that a rep actually has todo so hat? They can spend more time selling that's fun about. You have liketha favorite thing that you typically do in the playbook. Actually, aplaybook is one right, so building out a playbook. So first we talked aboutonboarding as a function as an important function, because that setsthe stage for their success. It also helps you as a team and even as aleader determined whether or not someone's going to be successful rightaway, because you get to you get a sense o their work ethic early on right,you get a sense Thof, their their aptitude and their ability to actuallylearn quickly on the fly, and so so onboarding is an important opponent,though, but also sales process right, so the process in which how we manageopportunities, it's interesting, but because you know opportunity managementas a as a whole is not something that we spend a whole lot of time. Focusingon frontline sales managers do because they're doing all that Ow real time,coaching on how to navigate this opportunity and how to actually move itthrough the cycle and then sales offs and sales peritivity might think about,like the playbook for entrance in exit criteria for each stage. But how toactually get through a stage is something that we don't spend enoughtime on and to me, that's where playbook really fits right. It's likedefining all of the you know kind of what is my goal for that stage. What'sthat Stri? What's my strategy for this stage? What are the tactics? Oremilestones that I have to hit in order to be able to move from one stage tothe next? The hard part, though, of course, about a playbook, as you maybuild it on paper, but it's operationalizing that inside the salesforse, so it makes it very easy and you can coach against that and you can seekind of where her the steps are being...

...missed. I know that, like our Buddy RobJecson with exboyant is really trying to do that right now with theircompanis like operationalizing playbooks, because it's really reallyhard to do yeah s more than just coaching right. It's a combination ofdata, Insights Technology and coaching right. It's like presenting the rightinformation at the right time at the right point in the sales conversationwhich you know again i's more than just enablem, because it's also asked thesequestions make sure you've got access to these people. Let's diagram the sale,let's look at where we are so. Yes, absolutely. I also think of the worldof sales. Productivity is, of course, kind of ongoing skill development. Wecan always get smarter, better and faster in the skills that we have right,and so how do you assess whether or not a rep is actually a great closer or agreat prospector? Do you just look at the data? Do you look at how muchpipeline you know how much pipeline is source by the AE and then say: okay,they're, not really a great pipeline generator, or maybe they just don'tlike doing it right. Oh, how do we like like so so? That's why? If you look atthe sales equation, which is number of opportunities times, average deal sizetimes your win rate divided by your sale cycle, and if you build out thebenchmarks of those numbers within your organization, then you can measuresomebody against that. So, if you ere win rate by the way is lower thanaverage the. What does that mean in order for you to get your number? Youneed more opportunities, rigt or I need to coach you on how to block and tackleour competition, or I need to coach you on how to qualify, deals out a lotfaste, because maybe you're hunting down deals that just aren't a good fitfor us right. I mean one of the biggest challenges that most managers tell meis rep spending a lot of time on deals that are not oneoble hundred percent ahundred percent, and you know the single biggest competitor that we allface every one of us. I don't care what industry you're in what is it status,quot yeah, no decision right, and so, if I'm getting, if I'm finding myselffrom these common situations, where I'm getting no decision, then I need to doa better job upfront qualifying yeah, because I am not doing enough in thatregard. I'm not qualifying out enough. One of the big questions people say islike. Are you comfortable telling me? No, it's people don't understand thatthey can force the buyer to just say: Hey. Let me know where we are with thisthing and it's perfectly okay for nowhere. Yeah, absolutely in fact, someof the best wreps I've seen over the course of my life are the ones thatactually can say. No. They know how to say no confidently, not as an Asshole,not as like I'm just doing this to for as a power move, they're doing itbecause they understand their own personal value in the exchange and theyunderstand the value of their company and their solution and what they bringto the table. Yeah it's hard to do yeah. It is, but if you think abouteverything that We'e just talked about that sales, prodactivity Davilementdoesn't do that a marketer nd, that's building assets, cant, you know, go runand an entire onboard. I mean they can it's about skill, but you know: Go Runonboarding for an organization because they haven't actually sold. They don'tunerstand Ik Kes te sales manager does. If you're, looking at like a greatonboarding program, how long should it take? What are the is it certificationis a classroom. Training is in a mixture of, like you know, make thesefifty calls to these bad leads so that you can get in the habit of having theconversation plus that, like what is an excellent onboarding program. Look likeyes, all, the above Great Niney, Ahs. Ninety days, Notga your first nineydays, most onboarding programs ar is your first week, but I believe thereshould be prework ahead of time. There is your first week or two weeks atheadquarters where you're getting ingraciated Ino the culture andunderstanding who's who win the zoo in Ho Organization, because by the way,how you get things done internally within your organizations, has a hugeimpact on your ability to get things done with with your customer right,massive impact. So all those things are important to set you up to actually geton the phone come day one, but simulations are incredibly important.Real live situ simulation, so, if I just give you a competitive dump, I'mByyou know I work a box and I'm telling you about how we compete against to onedrive and dropbox and everybody else.

In thes space t g drive whatever else.It's one thing for me to tell you it's another thing for me to paint somepictures of some customer stories: ofk How how t we overcame those situations.It's another thing to put you in a situation which is like okay, so I'mtrying to compare you and one drive and we have an enterprise agreewent withBicrosoft. Why should I buy you I and put them in those real lifesituations now, if you've got a a sales team that, as dispersed across thecountry, it's harder to do that, but there are platforms like the likes ofLearnd, COR sales hood or mind tickle. That can actually help you do thatright that scale. So I mean I think certification is one step in thejourney, but don't stop. It continues on. Your learning can should continuein your first ninety days, because you can't teach somebody everything in thefirst two weeks right. No, you can't. I means you have to learn when you're onthe job, right, yeah, of course, but h t. How do I create a quote? I don'tneed to know that my first week, unless I'm in VSB and I'm doing, I couldpotentially been doing deals on my very first day I get on the phones, but forthe most part I don't no you're absolutely right. I think a lot offolks want. You know on boarding to be a one and done kind of thing where it'slike one to two weeks. That's it and then we just start looking at her watch.Waiting for the first deal to close right doesn't always work right. Well,and I got to tell you so unfortunately, frontline sales, mad AJERC, don't helpa lot. They can be super helpful, but they can also be a giant Paynin, theass here's, the thing that I suggest highly suggest number one: FrontlineSales Maner just need to be bought into the entire onboarding plan. So ninetydays frontline sales managers have to be bought in because it's their job tohelp drive the engagement in that plan. There's nothing worse than a frontlinesales manager is like. Oh I've got this guy want him to start tomorrow. An yournew boot camp starts on Monday, and it's like well, they haven't they're,not gon NA, be ready. They haven't done athe prework, then I need you to holdthem accountable to getting it done over the weekends that come Monday.They know what the hell they're talking about and they don't get lost becausewe're going to move it a clip. The other thing is, is to work with yourrecruiters and your executive team to ensure that your start dates are allconsistent, so you can create cohortsso start a cohore every two week. So ifyou hire somebody guess what I don't care, if you hire them a week and ahalf ago, they don't start until Monday right. So it creates some consistency,because there's nothing worse than trying to do an onboarding for twopeople. Yeah were even if you're an early stage, company and you're, not inYoure hanging like five people, but to the point like group them together, Oelse like every every Monday. You know the some senior executive has to bebought into like giving the history of the company. I you could have done thatonce and I do Itoro months yeah, it's it's a it's a terrible waste ofresources. Unfortunately, when that happened, so you were, you were a boxand then now you're in this really exciting role at emergence, and I thinkone of the things that's super interesting about. It is the number ofdifferent kind of companies that you see so tell us about the new role andsort of what your mandate is and then we can. We can go from there. Yeah issure so again got super lucky, fortunately, because of the companiesthat it worked for and kind of, the role that I had in those organizations-and you know emergence came to me to talk about this idea of a role likethis Lemergence as a venture firm is a ter one. Benchar firm is we're hyperfocused on basically working with people who want to change the future ofwork, but what that means is under the domain of VNB, enerprisass right and sowe're hyperfocusd. That's all we invest in you know early investors in salesforce and Yamor and box and success factors and service Max, and so, as aresult of my experience, both at salesforse and box and Google andOracle in the others. It kind of made sense for me to join to help ourportfolio companies overcome the hurgles, so they commonly face on thego to marketside when they're trying to scale from a million to ten million tofifty million the end of the day. My job is to help them sgall faster rightand truthfully it's about helping them to recognize the pattern. steat everyseries, A and series BSTAGE company faces like what what I'm learning aboutthe world efventure capital is were in...

...the business of pattern, recognitionright we're in the business of pattern, recognition of opportunities, and oncewe invest in a company, it's helping them to recognize the pattern of whatnot to do so that they can grow. So they can overcome some of the hurdlesthat we've seen. People really struggle with. Where do you end up spending alot of your time? So I get super tactical. I get in theweeds with our companies and we go through it literally same the samestuff for every company. It starts with okay WHO's, our ideal customer profile,vy like who's buying our product, and why? What we know about them and are weactually messaging to our buyer? Are we messaging to the companies that we wantto sell to it's really interesting new ones? We may think tlike our productmay be designed more for it, but we actually go sell to CEOS and PPS AFsales. Well, if our product is designed for it, how do you bridge that gap whenyou're selling to a vpsls or a CEO or CIO right? So it's said it'sunderstanding who r our customers are, who our buyers are. What do we knowabout them and it's aligning our messaging and our positioning aroundthat and far too often, and what I learned from my storyteller role, whichI created when I was in box, is everybody every company ishyperarrogant in their positioning, meaning all they do. Is they talk aboutthemselves? Look at how great we are look at all of our customers. Look whatwe do for our customers and they don't worry at the conversation around whatwe've learned from our customers right and whaterer. Customers have taught usand what our customers are helping us to recognize in terms of value thatwe're delivering for them an so we spent a lot of. I spent a lot of timeon messaging and positioning admission vision exercises with the founders inthe leadership team, and then we get into everything from like sales processsales, playbooks sales operations, hiring is a huge area focus I think,unfortunately, for early stage founders. This idea of an Oran chatter crossorganization is kind of foreign like who do I hire on the go to market team?First, when do I hire apod ooshould? Do you believe Areyou? Are you a proponent of you know?Maybe after you feel like you, have something approximating product marketfit go for a senior hiher that has the experience building out F, the team.Are you somebody that wants to develop from within? Do you think that you know?Are you sort of a more mercenary VC? That's saying wellwe'll get the zero toten guy or Gal and then we'll get the ten to twenty five Guyor Gal and we'llkeep swapping them out until until we get to a hundred yes to all o thatwhich which, which means no to all that as well right. So there's no silverbullet there really isn't. Part of it depends on the leadership team that youalready have in place right and some some people when they come to us itseries a they already have a pretty senior team. They have a vpssales right.The the irody is what ive often find is they'll have a vpsls, but they won'thave a head of marketing. I would argue if you're in the seedstate, you betterbe looking for that head, ofd, marketing, first and guess: Who's yourseller get that head of marketing, because you know who should be sellingyour founders, you know and and pet cazange's writing a book about founderselling. And how do you actually become a founder seller? So I recommendeveryone read it, but the reality is your founders ar the ones that arehelping you to understand who our customers are, why they buy what theybuy. What message really resonates with them? And it's not a message that youdelivered to your dventures to your investors? It's a different messagethat hethats happens a lot right, so you take your VC pitch and you tweike alittle bit that becomes your sales kit pic o your first call pitch and that'sSt totally should not happen at all. But the truth is is what most foundersstruggle with is hiring marketing and hiring them first, because, by the way,vpsls a vpm marketer will take you good six to nine months to hire a salesleader, whether you hire the sales leader first or the sales reps. firstagain, it kind of depends on who you have in places a leadership team. Ifyou've done this before, then I might hire someone. I might hire sales repsbefore, because I know how to manage hus two sales reps. if I haven't donethis before, then I want to hire a...

...sales leaer that can help to build outthe machine. But if that's the case than I need to hire a a salesoter,that's a builder that knows how to build dashpoards and reports and salesforce. That knows how to actually build board decks. That knows how to AV testagainst a hypothesis as far as like this is where the markets going, andthis is who we should be selling to, and this is how we should price right.So it's a profile of a salesleader that you need to be really Cognitan of, butyou also need to be as a leader. You need to be really cognitit of, of whereyour gaps are right and your leadership style. If you're super analytical makesure you'll hire a sales leader that super ininlivical and that way, you'respeaking the same language, because there's nothing worse an when you hiresomebody that you know you think like. Oh I'm super inlivical, so I want tohire like the charismatic. You know: Sales later culture guy's like no, thatdoesn't work. You guys willit's Ijus, see it happen over and over again right.So it's been really clear about understanding the type of profile thatyou're actually looking for and then oh by the way hire your head of marketing.First then hire your customer success managers then higher sales so hire thatinteresting, crazy right, but it was like. Oh, I gotta hire sales people,it's like! No, you don't go out and sell. Mr Founder, that's your job! Youshouldn't be ful, I mean like don't, spend all your time focusing on theproduct which, unfortunately, there are a lot of product founders, focus yourtime on selling and engaging with your customers than Hirac. I think a lot ofa lot of the issue is that it hasn't yet, although I think it'spenetrating, but you know you and I are completely the same page, which ishigher marketing before sales. The reason people hirher sales is becausethey think sales equals revenue and it doesn't necessarily sales turns demandinto revenue, but without demand sales thes under percentual know by the way,in the early days, people don't think they name marketing, because they'vegot all these leads coming in right, because guess what you now all theseleads coming in, because you're a shiny penny and and that's going to dry upreal quick and when it dries up. That's when Ou! That's! When I see thishappens a lot, it starts to dry up, and so it's like shoot. We need to go, gethigher head, ofd marketing, and then that takes six to nine months and nowyou're way behind right. The other thing is ye when you're hiring it headof marketing, and one of my my colleague, Vivianafaga Whos, used to bethe CMO an enefits who's, my counterpart on the marketing side,which is really interesting because she'll often say well. What kind ofhead of marketing do we need? Do we need someone? That's got domange an extfor teas or product marketing, expertise or brand expertise. Wouldwhat kind of Experteshoul they have? Typically it's either from what I'veseen it's either demand Gen expertisor product marketing, expertise on themarketing side. Right because we need to know what to say or we need to knowhow to go out and get more leads, or at least reoriente highly flow right,because all a lot of these leads are just junk one of the problems. Peopledon't quite understand. Is they say you tell them what a demand gen person oryou know like what the responsibilities are, which is togenerate demand, ofcourse, and they say oh I want that, and but they haven't spent any time onmessaging, and so they don't understand. The demangons person's job is todistribute a message to a channel, but without a message they don't there'snot very much to do so true, AF, to create content for them to distributeright right. So so would you hire ahead of product parkgetting ahead of demand,Gen yeah or wars tat, something where again like? I need the foundersinsights on on like what is the message that we're bringing out to the marketbecause they've been selling and they're getting feedback from thecustomer base, and then I can put that into you know ads or Webon ars orwhatever it is that we're doing so. Then it depends on the your leadershipteam. Your founders right are your founders, create marketers kind of bydefault ore, the great sellers by default, or are they great customercustomer lovers? If you will yea were te o cusmor advocates like what arethey? What are they really good at besides building product? And then howcan you anchor arout that, because that'll help you determine wel didn't,do we need product marketing or demand Ye in first? This has been anincredible conversation dug. One thing that we like to do at the very end issort of figure out what are your influences or people or books orpodcast or content that we should be...

...consuming so that we can be as good asDogland as any recommendations on great books that you think should inform ourperspective or people that we should be aware of. Chris boss, never split thedifference. He was on my podcast last week. Yeah Oui love him. I have likethis. This weird obsession with him that he is now going to be aware of. I run inhim all the time. I saw him andI was just enamored with here's the thing the idea of negotiating. You knowif you think about negotiations, they literally happen the entire life cycleof a customer relationship right and so we're always negotiating we'renegotiating for things. You know internally withan organization, withour families, with our you know, with our customers with everybody and thetruth is we think that negotiation? Is this singular event? It's like an exitfor an IPO. It's like all, it's a singular event, and then I'm done it'slike no. It's happening all the time and the better you can get itnegotiating the overall, the better you all of your conversations. INTRinteractions will be with your customers, so big, huge fan of Chrisboss and never split the difference, and I get their email newsletters allthe time and they're great. It's great little insight and by the way the coreof great negotiating is empathy, HMM interesting. What D Yo wer keepspopping up yeah it does it til he does, and then you know I've. Clearly, youknow listend to and read everything that all my home is to whether that'sJohn Barrows or Jaco or Max or Richard Harris. I mean. Unfortunately, we livein the Barea, so we get access to all this great information and insight.Another organization that actually creates a lot of great content,especially from like this value selling notion, because we have to get out ofthis idea of selling transactions, but we have to actually start selling valueand help our customers understand why they should give a shit. Is Forcemanagement now they're super expensive. If F, you want to bring them intyourorganization, but they write a lot of great content. So that's something elsethat you should. You should dig into yeah, that's about it. I don't iread. Ispend most myny time, reading articles and not books, Hm Wong, fair enough. You did a great job because you immediatelyhad an answer where sometimes people get a little flustered and then theyhim and they haw. I wank somebody with a Bo with a point of view. L You thereyou go. We appreciate it. Anawoman sucks, thatitynotaaxtheyou go there,you go if people are listening and they want to reach out to your connect withyou in some way. Are you open to that? And if so, what's your preferred methodof communication, a hundred percent open to that always interested intalking to to my homes and my cronies and people that I can learn from Morpeople that have great ideas or people who just want to shoot the shit justreach out to me at dug at m cap emcapcom on Linton or twitters atDoglandis, hey everybody. This is Sam's cornergreat conversation with Doglandis. Who is so eloquent and impressive and isdoing great work as a growth partner at emergence, so a couple of keypoints?One of them is just about the importance of hiring marketing beforesales. We talk about that a lot on this podcast and dug only re reiterated it.The founders should be selling and you hire marketing before sales and he evenmentioned higher. I had a customer success before I head of sales. The bigmisconception is oftentimes that folks understand and equate sails to moneyand sales is one part of money, but demand is the first part of money andwithout demand you can't harness demand into revenue. So I always saysalesperson with lots of meetings and no process can help an organizationgrow and make money. They can close deals and a salesperson with nomeetings at all. But a perfect process and perfect solutions and perfect toolscan make no money at all, and so the first thing we need to demonstrate isthat we can generate demand and from there we can scale the rest of thebusiness. So that's been Sam's corner thanks. So much for listening and I'lltalk to you soon...

...to check out the show, notes, seeupcoming guests and play more episodes for a our absolutely incredible line:Bout sales leaders like dog, Landa to visit, sale, heckercom and head to thepodcast tap. We've got a number of amazing guests coming up and we've hada bunch of amazing guests. Already Doug mentioned Chris Foss, who is on theshow. Last week now you'll find the sales hacking podcast on itunes orGoogle play. If you enjoyed the episode, please do share it with your peers onLinkdin, twitter or elsewhere. If you want to get touch with me, you can bestplaces probably linked in so find me and Linkedincom ash and Sam f Jacobsmention the podcast in your message to me and we'll try and get a shout out toyou in upcoming episodes and then finally, big thanks to our sponsors forthis episode. They are aircall your advanced callcenter software, completebusiness phone and contact center, one hundred percent natively integratedinto any CRM and outreach a customer engagement platform that helpsefficiently and effectively engage prospects to drive more pipe lane andclose more deals. So I'll see you next time.

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