The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

26. From a Big Company to a Startup to an IPO w/Andrea Gellert

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This week on the Sales Hacker podcast, we interview Andrea Gellert, one of the most respected marketing and sales executives in the industry. Andrea is currently CMO and CRO of OnDeck and has built an incredible career as a marketer over the past 20 years. Tune in as we chat with Andrea Gellert— marketing expert, CRO of OnDeck, and former American Express executive!

One, two, one, three, three. Fo My folks, it's Sam Jacobs. I am the hostof the Sales Hacker podcast and I believe this is episode twenty seven. Well, that is amazing. Now it's twenty six. Sorry, I was wrong, episode twenty six. So we've got a fairly exceptional executive in our midstfor this interview. We've got Andrew Geller. She's the chief marketing officer and shefor a new officer Von deck capital. On deck is a public company providinglending and financing to small medium sized businesses, and Andrea shares a lotof her experience in this interview about her career, going from fifteen years inAmerican Express, where she cut her teeth on marketing and data and analytics andthen took on more roles as she grew, and then made a leap from,you know, a massive however, many hundreds of thousands of people,at tens of thousands of people American Express employees, down to on deck capitaland when she joined them they just had seventy people. And so she talksabout that transition. She talks about the skills that you need to develop movingas always, we talk about from an individual contributor to a manager, whatshe attributes her success to, and also the power of influenced management, whichis a really key theme. So we'll be hearing from Andrea shortly, butfirst we want to thank our sponsors. The first sponsor is are call.Hopefully you've taken a look at air call at this point, but if youhaven't, a really fast growing company. It's a phone system designed for themodern sales team. They seamlessly integrate into your crm, they eliminate data entryfor your reps and they provide you with greater visibility at your team's performance throughadvance reporting, assuming you means a manager type person. When it's time toscale, you can add new lines and minutes and use incall coaching to reduceramptime. So the website is are called dot io for its sales hacker,that is, are called ot io forward slash sales hacker. Go there tosee why you we're done in Brad Street pipe drive. Thousands of others trustare call for the most critical sales conversations. And then our second sponsor is outreach. So that's outreach ioh they are the leading sales engagement platform. Outreachtriples the productivity of sales teams and empowers them to drive predictable and measurable revenuegrowth by prioritizing the right activities and scaling customer engagements with intelligent automation. Outreachmakes customer facing teams more effective and improves visibility into what really drives results.So that website is outreach dot io. Forward sales hacker again, outreacho forwardsales hacker to see how thousands of customers, including cloud era, glass door,Pandora and Zillo, rely on outreach to deliver higher revenue per sales repand now let's listen to our interview with Andrea Geller. Everybody, it's SamJacobs. I am your friendly neighborhood host of the sales hacker podcast. Ashopefully you know at this point, I am the founder of the New Yorkrevenue collective. I'm also the chief Revenue Officer of a wonderful big data,machine learning AI platform focused on people analytics, called behave ox. But that isnot why we're here today. We are here today to interview Andrea Gellert, who is one of the most noteworthy leaders in, I think, broadlyto find the east coast, but certainly in the New York City Tech Community. She's currently chief Revenue Officer and Chief Marketing Officer of on deck, thelargest online small business lender in the US. She's been chief for Avenue Officer sinceMay twenty two and she's responsible for all revenue generation processes across on deck, including marketing, sales and business partnerships. Previously, she's got more than fifteenyears of marketing and client service experience geared towards a small to medium sizedbusiness market. So she served as VP of client services and operations at groupcommerce and she also spent over fifteen years in leadership positions at American Express,including both the open small business and merchant services divisions. She is an undergraduatedegree of Harvard College, so she's fancy and smart, and she has anMBA from the Kellog Graduate School of Management at northwestern so welcome Andrea. Thanksso much for joining us. Thanks so...

...much for having me, Sam.It's great to be here. We are very excited about it. So oneof the things we always try to start some a lot of people know whoyou are and then some people don't, and this is going out, frankly, all over the universe, wherever there are sales hacker fans, so welike to get a little bit of your baseball card, which is some ofyour quick stats, and learn a little bit about on deck and then aboutthe organization that you're responsible for. So your name is Andrew Geller, yourcro and Cmo of on deck. Tell us just briefly about on deck,including you know, it's a public company, so tell us what you can tellus about the size of the company, the revenue footprint, things like that. Sure, on deck, which is company I'm super proud of,was really built to respond to a major mead out in the US and theninternationally, which is giving small businesses access to the financing that they need togrow and maintain their businesses. So we provide small business loans to small businessesand we do it through a combination of a very automated online system and avery high touch offline system as well. We've been business now over about tenyears. Celebrated our ten anniversary recently, and we've loaned over close to tenbillion dollars to over eight thousand small businesses during that time. So that's whatwe do. Yes, as you noted, we went public in two thousand andfourteen which was a very exciting time, as we raise two hundred million dollarson the day of our IPO and we're now at three hundred and fiftymillion dollar Revenue Company and we have about four hundred and fifty people. Sothat's that's what we do. Hered on deck and you, so you managemarketing, sales and partnerships. How, approximately, how big is the organizationthat you're responsible for? Right? So the organization I'm responsible for is abouta hundred and thirty people. The majority of the team, not surprisingly,is our inside sales team and then I have followed by a marketing team andthen a business partnerships team. That's exciting. So we will dive into all ofthat, particularly because I think the route that you came up through,which is the marketing route, is interesting in that you inherited, I guess, the sales and revenue responsibility explicitly and we'll talk about sort of what arethe challenges there and sort of what you've seen. But I think first thingsfirst. You know, we mentioned that you went to Harvard and and yougot your NBA from Kellogg. What's your origin story? How did you getto American Express and what was to just tell us a little bit about yourcareer and how you made it to where you are today. Absolutely well,I grew up in Los Angeles, so just even getting to a company NewYork was a bit of a surprise to me and certainly my family. Ithought I was going to be a lawyer. Lots of lawyers in the family,and then when I was starting to think about applying to law school,I thought, wow, this just doesn't seem like it's that much fun.And then suddenly all the lawyers I knew were telling me that there were justtoo many lawyers, and that was a real moment for me because I wasabout a year out of college. Had always assumed I would go to lawschool and then thought, oh no, I don't want to go to lawschool now, what in the world am I going to do? So mademy way into business. Went to business school actually to get into marketing andthought that I was going to do consumer products. It's one of the reasonswhy I chose Kellog. It'ts really known for its consumer products focus, andI was looking at my summer intern jip opportunities and was trying to choose betweenAmerican Express and Colgate Palmala of and America expressed the small business division was hiring. I thought that was really interesting. I hadn't really spent that much timethinking about small business, as I had an American Express card, so Iknew what that was like. Really appreciated the brand and had a really niceconversation there, and then went to Colgate Palma, of which you should havebeen the dream for me, and this is not a knock on call gatepalm of it's really just more of an insight into me, which is Iwas going through my final rounds of celled a conversations and I had a meetingwith a person who was the director of one of the brands at colgate andI walked into his office and he was the director of Deodorant. And soall around his office, I don't know, there must have been thirty different packagesof Deodorant. And listen, Guy, it's like a strange pot Pourri makesure of so many different sense exactly,...

...you know, long, lasting,Short, last, whatever it was, you know, clear or not clear, and you know thisten like I think, dear it is a greatthing. But when I left there I thought, you know, what doI want to do? Every day when I wake up, what do Iwant to look in the mirror and say that I'm focused on? And,you know, selling more shelf feet of deodorant compared to solving a longer termfinancial cash blow management problem for small businesses was what I had to weigh andI just gradivated towards the financial services problem that American Express was trying to solve, because they were both fantastic brands. I knew I was going to geta great experience at both of them and honestly thought that I would be anAmerican Express for three to five years. Never expected to be there for fifteenyears, but the company did a great job of move me around. Ihad multiple careers, I would say. I was there both in marketing,account management a strategic industry development, but I always knew that in my heartof hearts that I wanted to be part of a smaller company and really helpedshape and form a smaller company in a bigger way and and that's ultimately whatbrought me to on deck. And so walk us through a little bit ofyour fifteen years at American Express, because it's clear that they taught you alot. So where you want a marketing track you mentioned. You did accountmanagement, you did a few different things. was there a core discipline that youentered that you sort of apprenticed in? Was it truly like a cross functional, Multi Disciplinary Program how? How did you think about, you know, the evolution of your skill set at such a big company? Sure,I started in what now is known as open, the Small Business Card Division, and started there in a marketing rule, in marketing capacity. I was doingacquisition marketing. So learned all of the fundamentals about direct marketing and directresponse and direct mail and you know, a lot of the functions at AmericanExpress are have a through line core of marketing that you do. So mynext job at American Express was a job that was really focused on opening upnew industries to plastic acceptance. This would have been in the late s andpeople forget that it wasn't so long ago that you couldn't use a credit cardat a grocery store or at the post office or a costco places like that. This department was really focused on opening up the card acceptance and it wason the merchant side of the business and that's where I really flexed my industrystrategy and development skills, always with the Lens of marketing, right, becausethe goal once you opened up these industries was to work to encourage that America'spress card members to use their card there. So there was a lot of marketing. Is Part of the the deals that we were doing and the valueproposition to those merchants. And so then I spent some time from there takingon larger industry. So I managed a large portfolio of hotel companies that weremerchant partners or merchant partners of American Express. And again, when you're working withhigh or holiday in or four seasons, what they're really interested in is accessto the American Express customer base. So which requires marketing. So wewould spend a lot of time sort of mashing up what they could bring tothe table from an outreach perspective and what American Express could do from an outreachperspective. And then I actually went back to open then spent the last coupleof years at American Express, I would say, bringing that all together andfocusing on an overall customer experience role and retention roll and and learning about howto create best customer strategies on the back on the card member side, whichagain was marketing. Open appears to me, as an outsider, to be sortof one of the tent pole success stories of American Express over the lastfifteen to twenty years. Is that accurate? Is that how it's perceived within theorganization? I think so. I think that creating a brand. Itwas the first sub brand that American expressed have had, and I think fora while there was this question about do we need a SEP brand? Dowe not need to sub brand? I think it's been effective and I thinkit responds to the classic issue larger companies...

...have when trying to serve small businesscustomers and in fact my experience it on deck I think reflects what I learnedthere, which is that when you most companies try to reach consumers and they'retrying to do it at scale, with with customer acquisition costs that are reallylow, or they're trying to reach large enterprises, institutional sales or big BETBsales, and they're right, your cost of acquisition is much higher but theyield is higher. Small businesses are somewhere in between. You have to marketto them more like consumers in terms of the media they consume. How doyou engage with them because there are a lot of them and they're very fragmented, but you have to do so with a level of service and focus andorientation that speaks to the fact that their business owners. Right. I alwayssay that small businesses don't like cute marketing. Right. They want to be takenseriously as the business owners that they are, because they're responsible for employingpeople, they play critical roles in their communities and the like. You know. That said, they're hard to reach because you know, at on deck, for example, we market to seven hundred different industries and trying to reacha and communicate effectively with a plumber in Arizona is very different than trying todo so with a doctor in Arizona, let Alana, a doctor in inin tucket. That's a juice it. So I think because from a veryprobably the S on Americans press decided to take this focus and make it aseparate business division and and really try to understand the segment, that it didcreate a hall Mark Brand within a brand, and I learned certainly a ton fromthat experience that I've taken with me to blast. Like on deck,when you think about what you learned personally or when you are telling the storyof your success to yourself or to others, what do you a tribute your successto, particularly because you know navigating such a large organization is really difficult. What specific skills of we're speaking out to the folks that are listening,do you think plate a larger role or disproportionate role and helping you move upthe ladder at American Express? Sure they're definitely a few things that come tomind. First is developing really strong pure relationships and cross functional relationships. Thatwas true at Amex. I think that's true everywhere at this point, thatyour job is always going to involve a matrix and the way you're going toget things done is through other people, often people who don't work in yourdirect group or work for you, and so you need to have really strongrelationships to be able to influence your own outcomes through other people. So influencemanagement was something I certainly learn how to do. Write at eight thousand firstcompany. That's how you're going to get things done is through strong influence managementskills. Which, secondly, and I I think partly contribute to that,is what kind of communication skills do you have? What kind of how effectiveare you, verbally or in writing, at articulating what you're trying to accomplish? Backing at that up would be how strategic are you? You are youthinking about where you are and where you're trying to get to? You know, or you just focus tactically every day, and I think good tacticians are extremelyimportant. But from a career progression perspective, I think what I wasable to do is to demonstrate that I really understood how to get things doneand then took on more responsibility and show that I was able to make thattransition from somebody who just gets things done to somebody who can determine what shouldget done. And when you're talking about what should get done, that's whereyou're talking about strategy. And when you're thinking about being good at strategy,is at a learnable skill, in your opinion? Is there are there thingsthat you can do as an individual to get better, or is it innatein some way? I think it's a bit of both. I think somepeople naturally gravitate to strategy and some people...

...naturally gravitate to tactics. That said, I think anybody can be a more focus in credible goal thinker, ifyou just are willing to ask the constant questions. Right, are you thinkingabout? Where are we now? Where do I want to get to?Just even asking yourself that question. I often say to people what's you're fromtoo? We were moving from and we're trying to get to and just evengetting people comfortable with that kind of model can help them think more strategically andask that question of themselves and of their teams first, because if you ifyou have an idea of where you want to go, then figuring out howto get there, which ultimately is the strategy, is a lot easier.But often people get stuck because they're just not even focused on where they wantto go because they're so grounded and what they're doing today and where they are. That makes sense. So I think that was one thing, and thenI just they would say. The other thing that I learned a ton offrom American Express was how to manage people, because it's not intuitive at all,and I think one of the things that's certainly brought to on deck isthat managing people is much more of a discipline than it is just a naturalthing people are know how to do, and I think earlier stage. Companiesdefinitely have a challenge with that if they have a lot of people who don'thave a lot of trained managerial experience. What are the key management principles thatyou adhere to and maybe give us one or two super specific tactics that youuse to you in your management strategy? Right? Well, I really believethat people are the most productive and motivated where they understand, again, wherethe company is trying to go, what success looks like and how their rolelinks to that, right, so that they can really draw a straight linebetween what they're doing and the company's success. And I know that sounds like it'sobvious, but often I find people have roles. You know, whenI've come into other companies and talked like so, what are you working on? Somebody will give me an answer and then I'll say so, why isthat? And you say it nicely, but like why is that important?Why does that matter? And if they're not sure, that's problem right andthey think. You know, that can happen more than you realize. Sojust, you know, making sure that the roles are will defined. Ithink organization structure and role definition drives a ton in terms of setting up theright management framework, so that sort of thing. One thing, too,is having concrete goals. Here's what we expect you to accomplish in this timeperiod, as measured by which is the CODA people often forget about, right, that we want you to do this as measured by that, super important. And then having a really robust professional development plan. Right here the twothings that I'm working on to grow my skills, and here's the one thingthat I'm really good at that I'm working on to take to the next level. And it should just be three things. Right. People can't, I don'tknow, do play golf like it's you've ever had somebody try to correctyour golf swing? You know their leg and then these fifteen things are wrong, you're just going to like walk off the course, right, but ifthey're three things you could focus on and get really specific about the areas offocus. So not just that. I leould say I want to be betterat speaking in presentations. Okay, well, how what are you going to do? Well, I'm going to try to present it too, in thenext six months. And here the topics that I'm going to do and Iwill represent in front of some of my colleagues right, like make that professionaldevelopment plan a real plan. First, is just areas of improvement that youwant to focus on? Do you use a weekly one on one to dothat? Is that sort of how you manage your direct reports? Right?I have a weekly one on one with my direct reports, I have biweekly one on ones with my executive colleagues and then, I would say Ihave monthly one on ones with other key stakeholders in the business. I'm ina lot of meetings. So my day to day is a lot of readings. I think everybody's, anybody that's in any kind of management position, ispretty much backtoback in meetings and then in the question is, how do youleverage those meetings to get things done right?...

And it's funny because I feel likeover time I've tried to evolve what my one on ones with my directreports are that it used to be. I don't know if I would encouragethis or by direct report would come up and say here the fifteen things thatI'm working on. Now I'm less focus on the laundry list of activities,but here the three things that have the most impact of the business. Let'sreally focus on those three things versus I don't need the laundry list of thingsthat you're doing every day right unless you're having challenges and I want, youknow, you need my help on them. Yeah, and exactly, but let'sjet to your point right as set the direction, let's figure out wherewe're trying to go and then let's prioritize and how you get there. Aspart of the beauty of your own autonomy. It is. It's also the hardestpart, and I think this is a challenge at big companies, butit's especially a challenge at small companies, which is how do you there's somany great things we could be doing. There's so many awesome things to beworking on. I want to work on all of them, and one ofthe hardest things, I think, to do as a leader is to say, you know what, we can't do all of them at any given moment. We have to pick the top three, the top five, that are goingto be the biggest needle movers in our business, and then we'll goto the next five and then we'll go to the next five. Right,will get to all of them, but we're just not going to do themall at once, and that's a really hard, I think, thing toto stick to as a leader, particularly in a smaller company. It isthe absolute hardest thing. So so you're fifteen years an American Express and,to your point, you've always had that itch of I want to go toa smaller company and feel that thrill. How did you select on deck?And then you know you've been there on a pretty wild ride right up there. When it was seventy people, it's now north of four hundred people.You've been through an IPO. So walk us through some of the lessons thatyou've learned, but I'm particularly interested in sort of how you ended up therein the first place and then and then what you saw as you grew sureI ended up there. It wasn't looking for a new role. I hadhad left American Express after fifteen years because I had known, like I said, that I always wanted to move into something smaller and I had an opportunityto work at an early stage. It was like a series be company.They just rent raised their series be company. It was a really interesting value propositionin the what was the hot daily deal market at the time and Iwasn't looking to leave. I was really enjoying this startup community, although thefunniest thing for me was that when I first got there at a few monthsin, the offices were in Soho Classic Loft Style Startup Company, and mykids came to visit and at the time they must have been eight and twelveand they'd been used to visiting me a American Express and so they come upto this office and they said like this is it. MOM, knows everybody. Okay, you know where's where's your where's your office? And I said, well, I'm sitting at that table over there, and they were likeit's everything. Okay, mom, I are, we are. How many? How many people are at this company? And I said I think at that'stime too, is about seventy people, and my daughter, who's twelve,was like zero, like theren't any more Zeros on that mom, likeno, it's a smaller company. Yeah, it was really funny. It wasone of these environments where, you know, the tech people were playingwith all the remote control gadgets, which might thought son thought was just thecoolest thing. So I was really enjoying that. I really think that ifyou're ready, not everybody is suitable or interested in going to it. Froma very large company to a very small company, but within a month Ijust it felt like I hadn't been in a large company in years, whichto me, made me realize I'd made the right decision. So I washaving a great time there. A sort of nine months in and I gota call from a head hunter about an opportunity to head up marketing edit companythat was focused on small business lending, and that spoke to my heart.It really when I think you know about the areas that I am interested in. Your Marketing and small business are always at the top of my list,and so I couldn't say no. I...

...had to talk to this this personto find out more, and the more we talked, the more interested Ibecame, and so ultimately I joined the company, but I was fairly disciplinedabout how I went about doing it. I think it's really important when you'retalking to an early stage company that you get access to to their documents andunderstand what their strategy is, that you understand what their funding structure is andto ondex credit, and this beak too. I think a really important part ofan early stage company. There that several board members interview me, andthat told me a lot about in my conversations with the board members told mea lot about how invested the board was in on deck and how that Ifelt, leaving those conversations that this was a company that was not just wellfunded but well supported, and that the relationship between our CEO and the boardwas going to be a really what as a very healthy one, and thatwe would get the support from the board in addition to their money. Andso when I added it all up, I thought, you know, thisis a great opportunity for me to pursue, and so that's when I that's whenI joined the company. When you're joining as a head of marketing andyou know there are these massive growth plans, was part of the interview process.Here's how much, and also, because you spend so much time atAmerican Express marketing to small businesses in a sort of a skill set in achannels that are probably pretty similar, right, did you have a point of viewand like, listen, I'm going to need a hundred million dollars todo this the right way and here's how I'm going to spend it. Whenyou forced a bit to put together a resource plan, that sort of helpedyou articulate what your plan was and what your strategy was. Absolutely and infact one things that we do at on deck is that we make that partof the interview process. So I actually had to prepare a full marketing planas part of my interview process, and I actually now anybody on our teamhas to have some kind of project that they do, mainly so we cansee how they think. You particularly, I think, with marketers. Wecan be very good at talking and so you really don't always necessarily know howsomebody thinks unless you give them an exercise to do so. So I actuallyhad to put together, Oh gosh, it was like a ten twelve pagedocument on the front and before even got the job. And then I actuallyuse that quite a bit in my first out of three, three four months. That the company and resource plan was definitely heard of it. But Ialso knew, and this is why I think it was good that I hadbeen in an early stage company prior to coming to on deck. I knewthat there were only so many resources that I could practically ask for. Youknow, this wasn't a company that was going to market through huge brand initiatives, that that would the thing that we needed to do is really demonstrate thatwe could go directly to small businesses. That go to market strategy before hadbeen through the large sort of broker business that services small businesses for a tonof different things, and so really the idea was, let's demonstrate that wecan go directly to small businesses and that will give us the opportunity to thenask for more resources. You'd done marketing to small businesses at American Express.I'm curious where the same channels and I guess now you know, years later, are the same channel still as productive? Is it still, you know,the mixture of direct mail and maybe direct response email, or what's changed, I guess, in the way that you can market to small businesses andwhat's become really interestingly productive and what's also declined in productivity over the past coupleof years? Sure, I think. I think a lot of the toolsare similar. As I mentioned to you before, reaching small businesses is tough, given this scale and scope and diversity of them, and so there arecertain tools that allow you to be effective at filtering and I think that oneof the unique things about our business, lending in general, is that youhave what we call this double funnel so I can explain what that is,which is that you know, normally,...

...in a shopping experience, let's sayyou want to go buy shoes. You like Zappos, you go to Zappos, you decide what color shoe you want, what type of shoe you want,you give them your shoe size and then you just go buy the shoeright and as long as you have is your credit cards not denied, you'regoing to get the shoe. In our business a small business comes and saysI want financing for my business. We say, okay, give us someinformation and then we tell the small business a are we willing to give youthat money, and be if we are. Here is the durations a loan willingto give you, here's the amount of money we're willing to give youand here's the price that we're willing to give you. So that's a verydifferent buying experience and what it means from a marketing funnel perspective is that youhave this two step conversion. Right, there's a first step, which isinterest, and then there's a second step, which is actually approving somebody for aloan and then booking them for the loan. And so it's really importantthat you filter out people who you will never approve for a loan. Andwhen we first apparently started testing digital marketing, this is before I came to thecompany, we were looking at search terms and we're like, oh,we you know, we were ranking for small business grants. That was awesome. We were getting a ton of traffic from Google for small business grants.The problem is that we weren't going to loans from that because people who arelooking for small business grants are generally pre revenue and in our business one ofthe requirements is that you have to have at least a hundred thousand in revenue. The median is closer to five hundred. You need to be in business atleast a year. The median, I think, is somewhere around seven. And so the more filtering you can do on the front end right halfthe half the battle and marketing financial services is who don't I market to,not who do I market too, and there's often an inverse correlation. Thepeople who are most eager to get money often of the people who are leastqualified to get it. And so so that's where things like direct mail stillwork well, because there's just a ton of information that you can filter onmodel, on etc. The direct mail that you can't do with other channels. That said, I think certainly the world is evolved in terms of howeverybody shops. You know how everybody is trying to find out information, andso we leverage a lot of content. We know that even if somebody seesa direct mail piece of ours, or listen to you, here's the radioout of ours, the very next thing they're going to do is come toour website and try to learn more about us, because we're not a householdthing, right, we're not tappos. So making sure that we connect thedots on all of our marketing and connect that to a positive website experience,I would say, is the one thing that's changed a lot from my perspectiveversus doing direct response work ten years ago. By connect the dots, do youmean sort of consistent landing pages or like positioning messaging which is consistent acrossall the different channels that you're marketing against? Right, you need to be outin front of the small business kind of more and more frequently, notjust because they're busy, which they are, but also because just the level ofnoise out there in the market is so high. So how do youmake sure that when people hear your message that they associate it with you andnot somebody else? How do you stand out from a differentiation perspective? Wein our first tagline here when we when we did our first branding work abouta year or so after I got here, was on deck. We actually wantto lend a small business. The reason why we love that so muchwas because you couldn't swap our logo out and put Bank A or Bank Bor bank see or American spress there. Right. So, but that messagehas to be consistent across all of your different marketing channels and then also justneeds to follow up. I think the other big change is just with marketingautomation, all of the follow up nurturing that you can do now just makesit sometimes overwhelming, right in terms of your strategies, but but gives youa real tool to follow up, because...

...not everybody need your product at thatvery moment. Maybe they're just trying to learn. Like well, maybe ifI needed financing, do I want to go to on deck. How dowe make sure we're doing what we can to maintain communication and then over time, develop a relationship such that when they do need financing, they'll come backto us. That's interesting. So, especially with nurturing, I mean theworld is so complicated and there are also so many different ways of getting somebody'sattention that maintaining that attention was sort of thoughtful content is seems to be theorder of the day. It is an I would say. The other interestingdifference is just how much of that has to float through to our SEALES team. Right. So one of the things we've been working on here is howdo we make sure that all this great content were producing as a marketing teamis easily digestible and usable by our sales teams, because people are expecting followup from the people they have interactions with them, your sales team in away that they'd never expected that before. You started off as the Cmo ofon deck and then you you recently inherited the CRRO title. What have thebeen the big changes? I mean, have you run, you're now runningsales teams? Had you done that before, and what sort of surprised you andwhat was consistent with your previously help beliefs when it comes to running theentire reven organization? As opposed to just the marketing component. Right. SoI inherited sales and business partnerships, about a year and a half of them, and became the zero may two thousand and seventeen, so just a littleover a year ago, and it's been a ton of fun. I'm justbeing able to have all those departments and and see how they can connect andand how they interact has been great. But I had never run an insidesales team before. I had managed relationships with third party call center renders,so I was familiar with what people in a kind of call center need,which over up somewhat, although not a hundred percent, with when you haveyour own inside sales team. But I wasn't. It wasn't entirely new tome, but it was definitely different. And the scale is totally different,right. You go from running a twenty person marketing team to adding a hundredpeople from sales. Business Partnerships was more similar and I spent a lot oftime doing account management development work. But I think the thing that's been interestingto me is just how the three organizations have such different personalities. There's athere's a little bit of a like. Men are from Mars women are fromVenus, but dynamic that that goes on right, where marketers like data andthey like structure and they they are not and I don't know if this isgood thing or a bad thing, it's just the way it is right.We're trying to kind of keep our emotions out of it and let a betesting tell us what works versus what doesn't work, and we can be fairly, I don't know, like Quind of direct and assertive in a our communicationstyles. And then you go to Your Business Partnerships team, which is alittle bit like, you know, the forging new forging new paths, andthey see what's possible and they want to take a lot of risk and theyare very client oriented, right, you know, we want to make surethat that are a clients are getting what they need from us and and thelike. And then you have sales, which to be a good salesperson youreally need to be much more intuitive. You need to rely, I think, on your eque a lot. Good sales people are, and good salesleaders are very data driven, but they also leverage, I would say,their gut and their instincts, particularly you're more seasoned your season sales team ina way that you have to listen to, you have to pay attention to,and so one of the things I've worked on on a lot, andthey're still more to do, it's just how do these three teams communicate toeach other and sort of in a way that the other team will absorb andrespond and the like? That's, I think, been the most interesting.What are some of the changes that you've instituted to help drive that communication?Sure, I've done some organizational realignment, and you know for so, forexample, we have a business partnerships team. We've now consolidated our folks doing businesspartnership sales all under one roof.

They had been more distributed before,so that's created more unified and coordinated type of communication. I think that's that'sbeen super helpful. We created a consolidated revenue operations team. So there usedto be sales operations and there was marketing operations and we we created a singleteam that's responsible for both. That's helped a lot because they are taking inputfrom both teams and and often can do the translation really effectively. And thenwe've been really building out recently our sales enablement team and leveraging them to takea lot of what marketing is doing and figuring out how best to package itin a way that sales and use it. So those are the kinds of thingsthat we've been doing. Yeah, no, sales enablement is something everybody'stalking about these days and sort of how do you take the collateral and themessaging and the positioning and then put it in front of the salesperson at theright moment, at the right time right which is difficult to do. Soone of the last things I just wanted to talk about which is something you'vesort of dealt with your by definition your whole life, but specifically in thecontext of like leadership, is gender and you know you're a chief revenue officer, your chief marketing officer, you're one of the senior executive team members ata public company. I'm sure it hasn't been easy. Tell us your thoughtson female leadership. What do you think as a woman, you've done differently, or have you not done death anything differently? You know, how doyou what's your advice out there to the young women and the folks that don'talways have the same options as other people on a how to think about theircareer, to maximize the results in the output. Just a small question herefrom I'll give you sixty seconds and then last and the soft world piece.Exactly. Sure, no problem. So it's interesting. I was fortunate,I think, to grow up at a place like American Express that that had, even from when I started, their many senior female leaders and I thinkthat that taught me how to find my voice, right, because I hadrole models who showed how they use their's. But I do think you're to findyour voice and I think that when I work with and mentor younger women, I see a couple things that aren't universally true. Right. So Idon't want to for this to come off as like all women are accent onthen or why, but I've noticed a few things that I try to coachwomen in particular on and and the first one is how to make sure thatthey're merchandising and selling what they're doing. I think that often womensume more thanmen that that if I do good work, it will be noticed and it willbe appreciated and it will be recognized and I think at the end ofthe day, somebody who who works for me was it's actually a guy,was like no one loves you like you love you right. So you've gota really be willing to share what you're doing right and and in fact anotherwoman I know who was a very early senior leader, I think, atone of the car rental companies, who runs a women's leadership program said thatpeople don't know what you're doing, then they can't appreciate you. Right.And so you have to be able to communicate the people what you're doing andwhy that matters, and do it in a quantitative way right. Explain theimpact of what you're doing and why it's important for the business versus. Thisis a great initiative. I did right the so what needs to be linkedinlabeled? So thing number one, I think. Thing number two is howto make sure that your networking, and I think that this is something thatI've observed. You know that men tend to feel more comfortable doing more naturallythan women do. That that this idea. Again, the example that this seniorleader in this whim's leadership program meant to always stuck with me, whichis that she saw her husband in the study and he was on the phoneand he gets off the phone and she says, Hey, you know whowere you talking to? And he said you know, Jun John Smith,and she said, I've never heard you.

I haven't heard of John Smith.You know who is he? And I was like, Oh, it'sa it's no buddy of mine, and she said really, when was thelast time you talk to him? He said, Oh Gosh, probably liketwenty years ago, and she said, I mean twenty years ago, likeI wouldn't reach out to to John Smith if I didn't send him a Christmascard last year. You know, I'm sort of a this idea that youshould be able to like. How do you how do you make sure thatyou have an extensive network of people that you can that you can reach outto, and it's okay for that to be a more transactional relationship. Doesn'thave to be a deep friendship, it can be a transactional relationship. Andthen the third I think, is how do you advocate for yourself? Iam always amazed, or I have been more amazed, with WHO comes intomy office to ask for promotions and ask for raises versus who doesn't. AndI gotta say, and it just makes me sad every time I think aboutit, that the ratio of men to women doing that is, Gosh,five to one, four to one right. That just women need to be willingto advocate for themselves and get what you think you deserve out of outof your job, in your career, and if you don't ask, youwon't get right. So I would say just try to be more assertive.Are you optimistic the future of gender and diversity in the workforce? Sort ofa loaded question. I hope you say yes, but what do you think? I think so. I think if you just look at the demographic ships, that alone is happening. I think that the work life balance changes thathave happened over time. I mean I just think like when I went onmaternity leave, I had to kind of screep together twelve weeks from a combinationof unbasically even paid vacation and unpaid vacation to Steven get it. And nowin most companies, you know, twelve, even sixteen weeks is standard. Ithink the ability to work from home and not have it be seen asa black mark on your you know, on your abilities. There's just somuch more flexibility and it's so I think the combination of just where our demographicsare going and and the fact that technology allows for a much greater diversity ofworked type and makes me really, really optimistic. And and yet I dothink that we need more leadership at the top to to stimulate it. Andknow when I joined on deck we didn't have any female board leaders. Iwas the most senior woman that was at the company. I know that becauseI was at the company, we were able to recruit more women to thecompany at all levels and we now do have a woman on the board andthat's been extremely helpful. And it's not just about having different genders. It'sis really true that you get different perspectives when you have diversity of all kindsthat we should all be trying to get there. Yeah, I agree,Andrea. Thanks so much for participating. Last couple questions are really a wayof hanging it forward a little bit for the for the listeners out there thatyou know are looking to emulate or just, you know, read what you reador learn what you learn. Any any great business books out there thatsort of influenced you? Any great podcasts you're listening to? Just ways offollowing the bread crumb trail. Sure so on the Business Book Front, andI read a lot of fiction but I do try to sprinkle in business bookson the side. I really enjoyed a book that recently came out called primeto perform. Super Interesting Book, all about how do you make sure you'retapping into what motivates your employees and that motivation really is derived from joy andthe love of what people doing, are doing far more than monetary incentives,anslery benefits and the like. It's so how do you really focus on onwhat creates joy for your employees and how to infuse that into their work?Super Interesting Book podcasts. I'm a big fan of the gist. I alsolike MPR one. Those are the top of my my list right now.Great will prime to provide? That sounds very interesting. Last points, anylife motto or gutting principles out there for the folks that want to embody youor emulate you? Life Principles? You know, I think that I thinkit's important to always make sure that you're...

...true to yourself and that you you'rewilling to have a honest assessment of yourself and that you are able to havehonest conversations with others. I always say that if you were often asked toget feedback whether or not it's three hundred and sixty feedback or peer feedback orwhatever, and I always say you should always first try to give the feedbackdirectly to somebody, right, that you should never write feedback that isn't ascribedto you because that says something about sort of the strength of your relationship.Right, if you're uncomfortable putting your name into feedback that you're giving about someone, then is it really okay for you to give that feedback right and challengeyourself to figure out how to have that more honest conversation so that you couldput your name to that feedback and say, well, I've already talked to thisperson about it, but here's what we've talked about before. That haspaid me tons of dividends, as as I said, you know, giventhat one, I I think the key key thinks you need to be goodat as a leader's influence management. Yeah, well, that's great advice. Andrea, thank you so much for participating. We know you're very busy. You'rerunning revenue and marketing and partnerships for a major public company, so it'sbeen a real pleasure to have you on the show and and thank you again. Sam thanks so much for having me. It's been delightful. Hey everybody,it's Sam. This is SAM's corner. We had another great conversation with AndrewGeller, chief marketing officer, Chief Revenue Officer from on deck. Oneof the things that I always ask at the end of every interview that Iforgot to ask this time was, if you want to get in touch withAndrea, what should you do? So I did ask her that offline andshe says contact her on Linkedin. She's pretty easy to find. Her titlevery clearly says Chief Marketing Officer, chief for ev an officer. She saysher email inbox is totally jammed up. So if you want to get intouch with Andrea, that's the way. In terms of sort of notable takeawaysfrom the conversation, I think there's a lot. When we talk about managersand executives and how they got there, they talk about how they advocate forthemselves a lot of the time and sort of understanding your own personal advocacy.Andrea mentioned it in the context of sort of a gender divide. She saysmen tend to advocate for themselves kind of four to five times more often.In her experience and so if you're a woman and you want that equality,and one of the things she's saying is if you don't ask, you can'tget. But another point that she made is that it's always important to quantitativelydescribe the impacts of your performance when you're managing upwards. So when you talkabout an initiative that you accomplished or you talk about a sale, always tryto interpret that and articulate that and translate that into numbers. And I'll tellyou, I see so many sales resumes. The immediate thing I'm scanning for whenI'm scanning in an account executive resume, I'm looking for numbers. I'm lookingfor their quantitative and demonstrated analytical capability to articulate their performance and in termsthat I, as an executive, understand very well, which is numerically.So if you're working on your resume or you're thinking about talking about an accomplishmentthat you've achieved, it work, I would strongly encourage you to use numbersto do so. If your salesperson working on your on your CV, youhave to understand what's your quota, what's your quote attainment? What was yourramp and hopefully those numbers are really impressive. What's your average deal size? KnowYour Business when you're presenting and advocating on your own behalf. So thishas been Sam's corner. Now lastly, we want to thank our sponsors.So if you're going to check out the show notes, see upcoming guests andplay more episodes from our incredible lineup of sales leaders, go over to saleshackercom head to the PODCAST TAB. We've been growing massively. We've got anincredible lineup of guests. Over the past month here at the sales hacker podcastwe featured everybody from Mark Cranny to to Moss Hung Goose to Chris Foss,author of never split the difference, and we've got more great people to come. You'll find us on itunes or Google play and if you enjoyed the episode, please share with your peers on linked in, twitter or elsewhere. Ifyou want to get in touch with me, I think the best way is stilllinkedin. That's linkedincom in slash Sam...

...f Jacobs. And then, finally, a big shout out to our sponsors for this episode. Are Call,your advanced call center software, complete business phone and contact center. One hundredpercent natively integrated into any CRM and outreach a customer engagement platform that helps efficientlyand effectively engage prospects to drive more pipeline and close more deals. I willsee you next time.

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