The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 3 months ago

201. The Rise of RevOps & Insight into Data Integrity

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode of the Sales Hacker Podcast, we have Seamus Ruiz-Earle, CEO at Carabiner Group, who cut his teeth on Salesforce at the tender age of 17 and became the youngest Trailblazer in Salesforce history. Join us for an educational conversation about why you haven’t started thinking about RevOps early enough and how to remedy that.

What You’ll Learn

  1. Teaching Salesforce to middle schoolers
  2. Taking a long-term view on building your business
  3. The biggest mistakes companies make about RevOps
  4. Finding and retaining talent as a former solopreneur

One, two, one, everybody at Sam Jacob's. Welcome to the sales hacker podcast. Today on the show we're excited to have shameless release, Earl Shamis, is the founder and CEO of Carabineer Group, one of the fastest growing revenue operations consulting firms in the in the country, if not the world, and he's a bit of a prodigy. You know he's he's a young guy but he's building an incredibly fast growing business and he really as an old soul and it's a great conversation. He's really thoughtful, really interesting really humble. So we become friends and I love the conversation. I think you're going to enjoy it too. Now, before we get there, we've got three sponsors for the show. The first is pavilion. Pavilions the key to getting more out of your career. Make sure you take advantage of the pavilion for teams corporate membership and enroll your entire go to market team in one of our industry leading schools and courses, including marketing school, Sales School, Sales Development School and Revenue Operation School. Are you worried that you're not investing enough in your team so that you can hit your revenue targets. Learn more at joint PAVILIONCOM. Now we are also brought to you by mind tackle, another great company. Now do only a few reps meet quota each quarters. A majority of your revenue driven by a few top performers. You know that doesn't have to be the case. Revenue Leaders Trust Mind tickle to identify and drive winning sales rep behaviors so you can meet and beat quota every quarter. GO TO TRY DOT mind tacklecom forwards Les Sales Hacker to learn more. That's try dot mind ticklecom forward slash sales hacker to learn more. And finally, outreach, the first and only engagement and intelligence platform built by revenue innovators for revenue innovators. Commit to accurate sales forecasting. Replace manual process with real time guidance and unlocked actual customer intelligence that guides you in your team to win. GO TO CLICK DOT outreached out IO forwards thirty MPC. Click DOT outreached out IO forwards thirty MPC. Without further do let's list of my conversation with Shamis Ruis Earle Hi. Everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the salesaccer podcast. Today on the show we've got shameless for Reuise Earl. Well, let me tell you a little bit about Shamus. Let me read you his bio, but it's going to be a great conversation. So, as founder and CEO of carabineer group, shamess oversees the firms executive functions, bringing experience across a variety of industries and organizations, from financial institutions to education startups. His diverse skill sets facilitate the allocation of firm resources to best serve their clients. In two thousand and eighteen shamus was fortunate to travel from Boston to San Francisco to speak of the dream force global conference as a higher education keynote panelist. At this time he was recognized as the youngest trailblazer and sales force history. Since then, he has served many clients across North America beyond, instituted new revenue operation structures, transition clients away from legacy since systems and implemented best practices to maximize our OI. Shamus, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. Sam. Great to be here. We're excited to have you. So wonderful bio and but it. But it leads well into the first part of our conversation, which is your baseball card, because we didn't really completely describe what the carabineer group does. So you're the founder and CEO of carabineer group. But what does your company do? Yeah, you know, I think that the most condensed version of what we do is that we provide fractional revenue operations services to companies of all shapes and sizes. You know, what does that mean? Effectively, we provide the tactical hands on keyboard skill set to ensure that your sales four systems, hub spot systems and all associated technologies are running with the strategic you know, blueprinting and frameworking that you need to continue to scale and be most efficient as you achieve whatever kind of goals you're trying to in your business. This feels like a business whose time has come in the sense that revenue operations has become critically important and it's hard to find great talent, and so fractional makes a tremendous amount of sense. How long have you been doing the business? Tell us a little bit about the origin story of the business. Just give a little bit of give us a little bit of context. Yeah, absolutely. So I started doing, you know, revenue operations consulting when I was seventeen, actually as a way of breaking into the investment banking industry, and I continued to do so. I worked full time on it while I was at university, at school. So I've been doing...

...it for maybe six years now. Looks like we're coming up on carabiner group grew out of the pandemic actually as a you know, stuck in the House project that eventually you know, realize that we were hitting the market in a really interesting way providing those fractional resources when, you know, talent wasn't available. So, from a supply and a man perspective, kind of to your point, we very naturally shifted to a fractional model in the market responded. So over the last fifteen months or so we've scaled from, you know, me as a solo preneur up to I think we're at twenty five employees now full time. Amazing. So let me ask you. I want to learn all about your story because, if I'm doing the math correctly, you say you started revenue operations at the tender age of seventeen and you've been doing it six years. So there's a lot to talk about in terms of you as as a young entrepreneur, building a fast growing business. But one quick question I have. If there's a tremendous talent shortage you and you are offering fractional revenue operations work back to your clients, at some point you also, to the point of you not being a Solopreneur, have to find talent and train that talent yourself. Do you have some differentiated or proprietary way of developing reven operations talent that circumvents the existing talent shortage that's out there in the market? Well, I think there's the short term way of looking at it in the long term way of looking at it. So short term, we absolutely do. We offer excellent benefits. You know, we're fully embracing the remote work lifestyle. I think one of our our secret sources is alternative talent, and I can talk sort of at length about that. But effectively, you know, we're not just looking for the traditional backgrounds. So we as someone who was young and had to work pretty hard to get their first GIG, the the ages and the thing works both ways, right. Folks who you know, have decades and decades of experience, are often overlooked because they don't fit the profile that a traditional, you know, start up employee may fit, and yet they have decades and decades of experience that they can bring to the table and apply. And so, frankly, we're tapping the pools that others are overlooking and that's what's allowing us to grow in scale and and have minimal sort of friction when it comes to to the immense growth that we've experienced. Now we still, of course, are facing that and that problem will continue. And that brings me to the long term solution. We are entirely focused now on, quote unquote, sending the elevator backdown in terms of training up junior talent and putting them through training regiments that make them more efficient and more productive and ultimately subject matter experts in their disciplines. To a degree. You know, we're starting quite early, as in, you know, next month or the month after, I'm actually starting to teach middle schoolers sales force wow, you know, at a local middle school, with the concept that, hey, it's going to be five years or more until they're ready to hit the workforce, you know, and in a full time capacity. But we all know sales force isn't really going anywhere and it is about as ubiquitous as the word and the excel courses that they're taking and their computer literacy courses. So why not through sales force in there as well? And obviously, you know, if we're doing it at Middle School, we're doing it in high school, we're doing it in college as well. But we are endeavoring to create a fully fledged out, you know, talent pipeline. It's not going to yield immediate benefits, but you give it a couple of years, you know, you should be able to hire people straight out of college with, you know, two or three years of cumulative full time experience, which will bank them not only more effective and more efficient but hopefully leverage out this supply and demand problem talent perspective a little bit more. Well, there's so much to talk about. Shame is because you are articulating a global vision. But let's let's figure out your origin story first, and then I've got and then I think we can have a really fun conversation. So you mentioned you started...

...doing revenue operations at the tender young age of seventeen and keep saying tender. I don't know why, but it's a fun, fun little modifier. But but talk, walk us through, walk us through your back story. You're trying to break into investment banking. Sounds like in high school. Talk. Walk us through your college experience and then the give us a little bit of the origin story of Carabbe are you touched on it a little bit, but let's flesh it out a little bit and then we can we can go on to other topics. Absolutely so. I you know, when I was sixteen there was a gentleman who came to spoke at my high school named David Batstone. He was a investment banker and a social entrepreneur and and he founded for profit social entrepreneurship companies and I thought that was the coolest thing, since I spread right, make a lot of money, do a lot of good in the world, right, like, what's not to love? And so from that point forward I was like, okay, that's who I want to be, that's what I want to do. So how do I get into investment banking? I ultimately that that summer was coming up, I was trying to find into an internship and I effectively just started cold calling investment banks right, reaching out to people over Linkedin, picking up the phone and getting in touch with them. I got through about twenty five of them and they all had the same gut reaction, which was you're seventeen. The SEC would kill us if we hired you, so go back, you go back to school, be a kid and come back later once you've had a chance to to you know, become of illegal voting age. That was was, as you can imagine, not really a satisfactory answer. So I kept I kept kind of going through and eventually I found a Boutique Investment Bank in San Francisco who had a very specific need. Sales Force lightning had just been released a year prior and they needed to move their operations from classic over to lightning. And so the CFO kind of took my call and was talking with me, was impressed by sort of my initiative and said, Hey, you know, I really there are laws about you touching our finances. There's there's no way of you getting in and doing that role at this stage. But have you ever heard of sales force? Right, and obviously at that point I really hadn't been the fundamentally, it was a very much a trial by fire situation. I had six months in my college dorm room to learn sales force before the engagement would start, before the internship would begin, and so I just spent that time Friday, Thursday, Friday Saturday Nights Netflix on one screen, so those hours trail head on the other, trying to learn as much as I could. I ultimately loved it right and and it wasn't necessarily my chosen career path. I wanted to be a banker, but I was good at it and I had direct, unfettered access to the sea suite of an investment bank thirty years earlier than I should have, and and that was a bit addicting when you compare it to what the life of an analyst would have been, you know, in a cubical somewhere crunching excel numbers. So ultimately I pivoted away from from the hardcore banking embrace the sales force consulting in a much more developed way and started adding to my client list while I was in school. Eventually, last I mentioned, I worked forty hours a week with with consulting clients in addition to doing my classes. I grew in growing up in the bay area. Growing up in Silicon Valley, I had no real interest in being an entrepreneur other than, you know, the occasional garage sale and ebay store. I'd seen too many fail and I wanted security in my life, and so I was very much focused on how can I get a big four consulting Gig? I ended up lining up one with deloit. Dream job, working under, you know, an excellent mentor, and, low and behold, right March of two thousand and twenty, the the pandemic hit. I was sent, you know, back home from college and deloit postponed by start eight, by nine months. With my personality type, that really wasn't ever going to kind of fly. I tried to get training from them, I tried to, you know, have something productive to spend my time, and they...

...didn't come up with anything. So I figured why not kind of double down on the consulting thing, see if I can make something of it? Filled myself up, hired somebody else, filled them up. I heard a third person filled them up and then, looking at it from that supply and demand perspective, decided that it was time to take take the plunge, and that's where we're you know, that's really the foundation of where we're at today. Along the way we refine the messaging. We realized that folks needed help not just with sales force but with the entire rebops text act, and I think once we made that switch in particular. That brings us to today, where we're growing, you know, effectively by thirty percent month or a month, and and that pace seems to be accelerating. Wow, what a story. Well, let me ask you a question. Why didn't you want to be a kid? It sounds like, you know, Thursday and Friday night in college you're and sales force and watching Netflix. I'm sure there was people that were being frivolous and doing things they would later regret, but there's merit to that. Perhaps you know you're gonna have your entire life to be or how me? Just tell me how you think about it. I'm interested. It's a really good question, I think. You know, I have many thoughts on it. As you can probably imagine, I wouldn't say that I connected easily most of the time with my peers. You know, my interests were different and I would much rather go and explore, you know, the site of you know, some sort of revolutionary war event in Boston. Then then get wasted on a Saturday night right and and finding finding peers like that, particularly when you're young and you know, the word immature has a as a negative context, but but, you know, fundamentally just not worldly. Yet it's challenge sometimes to find people who have those like interests, and so I think, you know, for me, if I wasn't going to have those types of connections, you know, on a broad scale, you know, I had my core group, Group of people and we spend a lot of time together. But if I wasn't going to have those things, why why not try to do something productive that was going to set me up for success? Why not try to be, you know, retired at twenty five and enjoy the the next you know, sixty, hopefully, years of my life unfettered? I think I've always been guided by a principle that the Greeks sort of had, which was effectively back in antiquity, right, once you had enough financial means to take care of your your needs for the rest of life, you really were just guided by whatever brought you joy and that in that instance, most of those folks, it was learning, and that's, you know, the philosophers rate that came out of that time obviously had a lot of time to think about life's life's problems and potentially pose some some critical thinking to those, and I think I had just a very similar context. was like put in the work now so that later I can really enjoy everything that that life has to offer with as few barriers to that enjoyment as possible. So I think when you combine the fact that I enjoyed what I was doing, that I really enjoyed the fact that I had the means to travel, that I had the means to do these crazy things with my friends along the way, and you combined it at the fact that I was learning skills that I knew critically we're going to be helpful to make me differentiate myself from the crowd as I moved through my career. It was, you know, it seemed like a win win. Now, looking back on it, should should I have had more of a balance? One could certainly make that argument. Right, you're only young ones and you're only in college once and there are certainly opportunities that I passed up because of this. But you know, I do look back on the memories that I did have with with a significant amount of fondness, which I think is important to note as well. What so let's talk about revenue operations and why you think it's so important. Today,...

...it seems to be growing in importance. What do you see as the trends that are driving the rise of this particular function, and how do you think about carabbeer groups ability to add value given the dramatic need? It's interesting because so much in this world is, in my opinion, driven by perception, right, and and the brutal truth about revenue operations is that, despite it it kind of experiencing the renaissance between probably two thousand and nineteen and now, it has existed in another name, right, termed operations, for decades, right, and it's always had some level of of importance for teams across multiple different disciplines and multiple different, you know, industries, but traditionally. Now, as we start to place the role of operations in a critical function related to revenue and and the fact that folks are recognizing that revenue, you know, in general, is which is the most important part about growing a business, I think we're just seeing a broader shift towards a predisposition to really focus on what the systems that are in place that can enable them to succeed, right, focusing not just on the end goal but the steps that are going to get them to that point. And the problem is that that shift has happened over a relatively short period of time, right, it's happened over an eighteen month period, give or take, and folks who who were, you know, well skilled for this in the past. That group is small and that's where I think Caribe or group is uniquely positioned. I mean effectively, our model is to have, you know, a mutual fund or an ETF of sorts of talent, right, a talent pool that you can, you know, pull from at any particular point in time you need to focus, saying on, you know, Marquetto take the Marquetto expert, focusing on part dot, take the part on expert, you know, or any of the other adjacent technologies. It's impossible for one team to have all of those internally and by relying on a fractional resource like carabbe our group, you know that you're not going to have to be concerned about talent or attention. You're not going to have to be concerned about having the right resource at the right time. You're not going to have to be concerned about, you know, a competitive talent market pulling people away because, you know, we're kind of incentivized to stick stick around. There's there's so many benefits to working fractionally in this way and I think, like I said, I think the timing, the market timing, is really what's been, you know, fueling us thus far. What do you think the biggest mistake companies make around this broad concept of revenue operations is not thinking about it early enough. So, particularly because the barriers to entry now are low on and enterprise grade platforms. Sales Force has recognized the threat that something like hub spot crm, for example, pose to them and started to really, you know, provide a low cost, you know, twenty five a month option. Folks have to recognize that the foundation that they begin with will make it critical difference as they go through the various stages of growth, from precede all the way up to to post IPO. Each, you know, implication from your go to market strategy, from your Crm, from your marketing automation tools, all of those pieces. Every time you switch, every time you you move from one platform to another or you don't have to to reevaluate. That's time lost, that's efficiency lost and ultimately that's money lost, if not money spent, because it is not inexpensive to work with teams like ours on a oneoff capacity to fix problems that should have been mitigated at the beginning. So I'd say the biggest risk is not recognizing the value of having a revenue operations resource. It doesn't have to be a...

...formalized, you know, consulting engagement, but someone who you can go to and rely on to give you the proper advice at the proper time to ensure you miss the potholes as you're scaling up. Is there a specific functional? Is it, you know, reporting? Is it making sure that you know you're using the right crm? Is there something very specific that most companies that say, okay, shameless, I want to I want to do this right. I'm still not quite sure, like what revenue operations means in terms of like all of the disparate activities that are encompassed under under this this broad this broad moniker. But what's one thing that that you tend to focus on at first when you're working with the client is it. Is it getting all of the reporting systems in places? It making sure that they can report on pipeline accurately? Where do you find yourself starting a lot of the time? HMM. I think that where we start, fundamentally, is data intech. Revenue Operations in in general is defined as the confluence of sales, customer success and marketing and ensuring that all of those things are working together. And, relatively speaking, the best way to make decisions, the best way to make strategic course changes, etc. is to be able to fully rely that the data that you have in your systems is accurate, and that's something that most teams today cannot say with certainty right it doesn't matter whether they're, you know, series D or precede. Most folks don't have good insight into their data and, as a result of that, they don't know that the decisions that they're making are actually grounded in fact rather than grounded in, you know, just instinct or feeling or anecdotal evidence. And that, I think, is is the critical difference. If you can have clean data that you know, you know with a high degree of certainty is accurate, then from there you can make course corrections and identify areas for improvement and invest your resources to maximize your return on investment. Makes a lot of sense and something I've experienced personally. Let's let's shift topics and the time that we have left. You said that you know one of your again, this is sort of a topic that for me, I think about a lot because there's a lot of folks out there say the the most logical. I don't know if it's the most logical, but a natural implication and of you saying we've got this fractional resource, you don't have to worry about hiring talent retaining talent. Again, it was my first question to you. How do you get talent? Because you because part of Your Business Strategy, must be there. For that you have some insight into how to either get or retain great talent or train talent in such a way that you can have a talent resource that other people feel like they don't have. Maybe it's because it's simply fractional and people like fractional works, so maybe they are attracted to the model, but you also look for talent and alternative places. So talk a little bit about your belief. They're some of the things that you do so that you can develop talent and places that other people don't look or don't appreciate in such a way that benefits both your clients and Caribbean or group over the long term. Yeah, I mean I think that there's a predisposition in general to think that you need people who have done it before, particularly when you're hiring if you don't know what you're doing right, and that certainly is a is a case, right. I mean, if you can find a person who has been there before and has the perfect mix, they know your industry, they know all those things, chances are good that they're going to be a good fit for your team. But those folks don't always exist, right and by the sheer fact that you're setting your filters so so restrictively, you likely are filtering out the folks who could also add immense value to your team and aren't getting a fair shake. Right. Like this happens across any sort of demographic piece that you could think of,...

...and I think that our core philosophy is to flip the script a little bit and go towards the folks who are, you know, left on the table, for lack of a better term, through no fault of their own and evaluate them. That doesn't mean we're hiring just randos right like. That's not the the point I'm making, but I think often times prior experience specifically related to the job function that you're trying to fill is the biggest restrictor you have on your total talent pool. The world is evolving at a rate where you're never going to find the person who knows everything about every tool that has been released on the market in the last fourteen months, and I can tell you in the revenue operation space there have been dozens right like. That's physically impossible, and so you have to boil down to what is being to make your team member successful and in our case what we've blow it down to is high Eq, right, high emotional efficiency, and that's where we're able to say, okay, if our team can understand the needs of the client and understand the empathy, with empathy, what that person is trying to accomplish, they are going to be a infinitely more effective consultant than someone who has low Eq who happens to have a a background in from a technical perspective in solving that problem. And so we can teach technical skills Eq is something that in general, has to be a massed over time. That's one factor that we we would struggle with in terms of developing and so that's why we go and we hire people who have non traditional backgrounds. I'll give two examples of recent hires. One is somebody who worked in coffee shops for ten years prior to wanting to make career change and work in sales force. is their technical skill that of a ten year architect? Absolutely not. is their customer service skill basically on paralleled inside of our organization? Absolutely, you bet you. You Bet right, because they have that life experience that can get tailored to better serve our customers in a way that fundamentally, as opposed diep diametrically to someone who's, you know, in the trenches, you know, coding all day. Right, it takes all sorts of different personalities to keep the ship running. Similarly, right, we just hired a twenty two year navy seal, you know, who's transitioning out of the service, no sales experience at all, right, and he's going to be working on our account executive team. Has He ever sold anything? No, but you ask him about a time you know when he's exhibited certain skill sets and he starts talking about convincing the Taliban to not do x, Y and Z thing, you know, in the middle of an active conflict, and you realize that every person's experience gives them certain skill sets that they can apply regardless of industry, and all you have to do is go and look for those outliers and give on the fair shake and if you think critically about it, nine times out of ten you'll find a place for them in the organization that will add value and help you again moving towards a better service for your customers and your entire team that's working internally to it. Just it puts tremendous pressure on your training, which is great, but you know, to the point. I mean you're building a long term business and I've known that from the moment that we first met, so I know that you're invested in that. But yeah, that's the point is, the wider the aperture on the intake, the more focused you have to be on building a multier institution that really is dedicated to developing and training and helping people learn industries and specific skill sets in a way that makes them productive. You know, more quickly than the assumption would be, I suppose. Yeah, and I think you know, I don't disagree with what you've said. They're with the exception of saying potentially that is that is something that you, as an organization, need to make a decision on. Are you tired...

...of losing people? Well then, maybe try to invest in people who don't have, you know, who don't have the other opportunities build up loyalty within those teams and and sure that they stick with you for the long run. Right, if your employer took a chance on you and invested in you and trained you and put in blood, sweat and tears right in developing your talent base, that doesn't mean that you're going to have unflattered, you know, unflagging loyalty. But I think that it's hard to say that that person and didn't, you know, believe that you had value to bring to the table, and I think that that's a major retention play as well that a lot of folks may just not focus on. I agree with you. Shame is one last question before we before we before we wind things down. So does this? I can't tell, but I could I get hazard a guess that embedded within all of this perspective is a point of view on the current state of secondary education. Is that accurate? Do you do you believe that people, you know, you mentioned, he said they get it's going to be five years before in middle school or enters the workforce earlier, which implies that you don't. You're not assuming they're going to college. Do you have a you you went to college? Do you have a point of view on the utility of College in the Modern World? I have a point of view on the educational system in general, in that I think that a lot more pragmatism needs to take place on both the side of the instructors and the side of the students. Right in and of that, I think there's a lot of folks who go into higher ed with an expectation that they will come out of it with the skill sets that they need to be successful in a modern economy, and I think that that is a false expectation. I think that it is much more likely that they will have book knowledge of these things but fail to have any sort of practical experience that employers will actually find valuable, and that that goes for even more so when you have degree programs and such that are tailored towards, frankly, unmarketable specialties, right, things that that aren't valued in in today's Day, day and age, regardless of the merits of that right. And for me, the best way that I can advise people to counter that is to look pragmatically at the world and identify the tools that that are industry agnostic. That's what I did with sales force. You know, it's the the most ubiquitous tool that high schoolers and college students will have never heard of until after they graduate and realize that it's everywhere and marketable. And I invested in that and that's what has enailed me to succeed in my career thus far. Yeah, being a little bit more practical. You know, my dream has always been and will continue to be a college history professor. Right. I love history. I've written hundreds and hundreds of pages of historical analysis. I had the opportunity to go, you know, ultimately I could have gone to Oxford and studied and gotten a doctorate agree there in history, but I had to look at it pragmatically and say, am I going to go into debt with three hundred thou dollars worth of debt in order to have a history but doctorate and make k a year for the rest of my life? or Am I going to put that, you know, little dream on on hold? Still Love History, still read history book, still write history papers in my free time, and get a specialty and something that I can actually work in in the real world. And ultimately I made the second choice right. One can make an argument about happiness and so on, but I think that that's not going to help, you know, solve the educational gap. I hear you. The counter argument for me isn't about happiness, it's about the fabric of our society. I think sometimes we assume that liberal arts educations are useless or and you're not saying that. You're being more, much more measured than a pure like silicon valley, stem Zello it that will say that, like, what's the point of learning history? What's the point of learning English? What's the point of learning reading poetry? And for me...

...the point is common set of values and ethics around how society interacts and that science and technology are tools, but they are tools that are that have moral implications if used improperly or used properly, and I think people are too. They just don't understand that it's not it's not happenstance a liberal arts education. It's not an accident. It's not like it came out of nowhere. It came from, to your point right earlier, the Greeks, the Romans. It came from thousands of years of human history and people thinking about well, there's some core things that people should know about to be well rounded human beings that interact well with other human beings, and if I just give them the technology, maybe they'll come out, especially if they've had difficult childhoods or they were they had difficulty interacting with other people, maybe they develop some resentments about those people. And there's a lot of bad scenarios where people that don't have a culture for underpinning that connects them to the rest of the world, but have a lot of intelligence around how to program end up building things that harm humanity in really bad ways. That is my counterpoint. What I would say to that is I keep a number of things on my desk in front of me. One is a little paper weight with a quote from Robert Kennedy. Only those who dare to fail greatly can ever achieve greatly. It's a great, you know, guiding principle for me. The other is two coins that have Sayn ignacious of Loyola on them, founder of the JESUITS. I'm Jesuite, educated for eight, eight years, I guess in total, and they have the concept of cure personalities, which is education of the whole person, and I could not agree more that that is so essential. And I think, to your point, it's not. It's not a binary decision. Right. Folks who are can think critically about the world, who have those skill sets. They're going to be the ones who hopefully get us to a point where, you know, as a society, we can have both and have them fully developed and have folks who have all of those skill sets and fix the problems. I just think we're we're always away. We've got we need to get some smart people in there to help us get there. Fair enough. Shames is before we go we like to pay it forward a little bit. You mentioned a few folks. You mentioned Bobby Kennedy, you mentioned the Greek philosophers. When you think about people that you think we should know about, it could be could be cliff Simon, your head of business, about than it could be you know anybody that's inspired you? Could be a great a great figure from history, but somebody that you has had a big impact on you that you think should have an impact on others. Who comes to mind, you know, the gut instinct actually is, is Charlie Chaplain and in particular Charlie Chaplin and the Soliloquy he gives at the end of the great dictator. So I suggest that folks go out there and and search up that speech. I think it has a lot too to say about who and what we need more of in the world today. Fair enough, shamess. Folks want to reach out to you. What's the best way to get in touch? Be A linkedin. I'm always open to connecting with more folks. Sounds good. Thanks so much for being a great guest on the show. Thanks for all of your contributions to the pavilion community, the outstanding and continued growth of carabbeer group, and we'll talk to you on Friday for Friday fundamentals. Thanks so much. By for now, everybody. Sam Jacobs Sam's corner. Really love that conversation with shamous release earl, the founder and CEO of Caribbeaner Group. What a story. Huh. It just shows what you can accomplish when you put your mind to it. And shamus was going to be an investment banker and then he learned sales force and all of a sudden, you know, I think they've got I don't know, they're probably that twenty full time of plays today, up from like, you know, one. I mean I think at the beginning of covid think what happened was that the layer kpmgre, one of these big, big accounting firms and consulting firms. You...

...know, I think they delayed his start date and he just went and started his own business and now it's been growing incredibly quickly and he's closing deals and the business is growing and they're hiring people. I also just think is approached. You know, fundamentally, if you're going to build a consulting firm that offers some kind of functional expertise that often is accomplished by full time employees, then you have to have a point of view. Why are you going to be able to get that functional expertise if there's a shortage in the talent market? And shamess has a well defined point of view on that, which is that they're going to invest in teaching people sales force as early as possible and when they come out no more people are going to know how to use sales force. They're going to know carabeine our group and, as a consequence, they're going to they're going to start their careers by working with carabine our group to drive sales force adoption and to drive really crm and revenue operations adoption through the global capitalist system. I suppose. So, I think you know so many times the thing that separates winners and losers is the short term versus long term orientation. You can really tell that shamess is taking a long term view on building his business, which I think is the right way to do it and it's outstanding. And of course you have got to know shame as he's a member of our CEO Pavilion, and he's also carabineer groups also a big sponsor of pavilion. So we had a lot of reason to have good conversations, but I just want week with them in Utah and and he's just an incredibly insightful and interesting person. Well read, thinks about life through the context of a variety of different disciplines isn't just my optically focused on is one little area of the world, and I think that makes some of a better leader and a better person. So I thought it was a great conversation. Now, before we go, we want to thank our sponsors. Of course, Remember Pavilion. Try Out Pavilion for teams. It's the way to get your entire go to market team into one of our industry leading schools, including sales school to train your account executives, sales development school, to train your Sdrs, marketing school to train your marketing managers, Cro School to train your fee piece of sales and prepare them to be chief revenod officers, and on and on goes. Learn more at joint PAVILIONCOM. Of course, we want to thank mind tickle. Do only a few reps meet quotae quarter? It doesn't have to be that way. Revenue Leaders Trust mind tackle to identify and drive winning sales rep behavior so you can meet quota every quarter. Go to try dotmind TICKLECOM forward sales hacker to learn more. Go to try dotmind tickledcom forwards sales hacker to learn more and, of course, outreach, the first and only engagement and intelligence platform built by revenue inovators for revenue innovators. Commit to accurate sales forecasting. Replace manual process with real time guidance. Unlock the potential of your team. Go to click dot outreach that I of fords thirty MPC. Give us five stars on Itunes or spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Join the sales hacker community. Twentyzero professionals. It's free. So if you don't want to join pavilion, join the salesacker community. That's free. Get any question answer. Way better than all of the other free communities which suck sales hackers. The Best Pavilions, the best paid community. It's just no two ways about it. That's the way the world is. To go to salesacercom and join up Twentyzero people answering questions and offering support and help. When you're ready to take the step to the major leagues, you can join Pavilion, but otherwise you can reach me Sama. Join PAVILIONCOM and of course I'll talk to you next time.

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