The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 4 years ago

3: Why Your CFO Shouldn’t Own the Revenue Model w/ Jess Hunt

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

On this episode of the Sales Hacker podcast, we talk with Jessica Hunt, Executive Vice President, GM of North America, & Head of Global Marketing, Sales & Strategy for Axiom.

One, two, one, three, three Fo. Hi everyone and welcome to the sales hacker podcast. I'm your host, Sam Jacobs, founder of the New York revenue collective. Before we start, a quick thank you to this month's sales hacker podcast sponsor node. NODES AI discovery platform can understand the meaning, context and connection between any person or company by proactively surfacing opportunities that are highly relevant and personalized in real time. Note is creating an entirely New Paradigm for sales and marketing professionals to grow pipeline and accelerate revenue velocity. Visit Info dotnode DOT ioh forward sales hacker to learn more, and now on with the show. Welcome everybody to the Sales Hacker podcast. It's your host, Sam Jacobs. I'm the founder of the New York revenue collective. I'm so excited today to share the stage with my friend and colleague and somebody I've known for many, many years, Jess Hunt, Jessica Hunt, who is one of the top entrepreneurs and operators in the city. I originally got to know jess years ago back at Gerson Learma Group, and since then she's had an incredible career most recently she was executive vice president reporting to the CEO at Axiom Law, responsible for North America business, including global marketing and sales strategy. Prior to joining Axiom, she was svp and general manager of the life sciences business at Gerson Lemmon Group. At glg just launched in at three new businesses, professional services, life science and corporate markets. That resulted in over a hundred million dollars in incremental revenue. She also built and led shelgs digital products, data science and analytics teams. She's an active advocate for mental healthcare policy. She's also a vice president of the board of directors of the National Alliance from mental illness in New York, where she focused on destigmatation of mental illness. She grew up in Iowa. She received an Undergrad degree from Duke. She got a PhD from Yale. She's a very smart person. She lives in Brooklyn now and welcome to the show. Just so excited to have you say I was really fun. I'm delighted to be with you, to reconnect with you and also be a part of the New York revenue collective. We were, we're excited to have you, so let's start as we historically have done, and that means that three episodes in with your baseball card stats. So let's I'm going to just run through to help frame your expertise to everybody. So your name. What's your name, Jim, and what's your current title and most recent title? My most recent title I was I was any VP at axiom law. I was head of North American sales and I was head of global marketing. And Give us how big is axiom law and what does axiom do, for those that don't know? So axium it well into the nine figures and revenue. It's a seventeen year old startup. It's a market place for attorneys for large enterprise. It's sometimes referred to as in the alternative legal services space. It's a novel model for are acquiring legal services for big companies and we've I don't know, we've got it maybe about four hundred employees, maybe a little more than that now. And for the folks that are listening, nine figures means over a hundred million dollars in revenue. So for those that are struggling to get from two million a rr to five million a R or even up to the twenty mark. Jess as I has experienced building companies, while north of a hundred million. And then how long have you been in startup land, jess or, you know, in high growth land, however you want to define it? Yeah, high growth like because I have built businesses off the ground from zero. But I tend to be the person that comes in and help once you've got product market fit and it's you're really ready to begin to scale the commercial operations, sale, the marketing teams that really grow revenue. So I've mostly focused on later stage venture back company. So let's say I've been doing that for about fourteen years. Fourteen years, that's excellent. So really quickly. You know, we read, I read in the in the Intro, that you grew up in Iowa, which is amazing, but then you went to Duke, you got a PhD at Yale. How did you end up in this role? Give us a little bit of your background in your origin. Yeah, it's not obvious. I was studying human paleontology, so the evolution of humans and and other primates,...

...those digging up fossils of human ancestors and working a museum and I, like many people, some people, began to realize maybe I wasn't good enough to be a scientist. So I finished my graduate degree and then I went to work on a Pumpkin farm wow in Ohio for a while and as I was I I reconnected with some friends from school who had started a company and it was about, I think, four years old when I joined. It was called Girson Lemon Group. I didn't know a thing about business. I had been an academic and I didn't know what a stock was, but I joined in an entry level, you know, role in a growing start up. I think we were definitely the tens of millions. I think maybe Sam were already there. What year was that? Two Thousand and four. Yeah, I was there beginning two thousand and three. We were well into the tens of millions. Jaff we were, yeah, probably around thirty to forty million, I think at the end of a four was Northritian are are. Yeah, so we were going and I saw I was in a customer successful and then the CEO at the time, who I didn't even know, knew my name, took me up for breakfast and asked me to join the Sales Team and I was bewildered and told him know, implying. I think that you know, I'm an intellectual, without pointing out what a asshole I sounded like. He eventually taught me and joining the sales team and I loved it. So I carried a bag and then I built and ran sales teams and really, really love that time in my career. And then I became a GM around. It was a round marketing and product and learned a hell of a lot about business and eventually even built the data science team at first learning group. But I would call myself an entrepreneurial executive and not necessarily an entrepreneur, but as I have as my careers progressed, I'd steed really close to sales and marketing. Why do you think that is? Well, first of all it's what I know, but I also think that I you know, when I was doing my graduate work and it was quantitative and I think that there's a certain amount of inner personal skill that comes with with sales and if you're gregarious, you're persuasive, you can really enjoy a sales career. But if you are a system thinker, that's kind of how your brain works with numbers, with data, it can really enhance your effectiveness as a leader and I think that's probably that. You know, if I look for anything that's transferable to my stays as a paleon colleges, they think that's probably what it is. Could be a stretch? No, I believe it. I think to your point, a lot of people say that sales and marketing is both art and science, and when I look at sales executives and people that are upandcoming, it's often the lack of organization in the lack of process is often the thing that ends up being there undoing. So when you think about the last fourteen years, a big chunk of time at Glg, then you got to axiom and there's another good friend of both of ours that has worked with you and for you and has just said you made it a transformational impact on axiom over the last couple of years, particular with your marketing insights. What do you think is the difference between, you know, what characterizes success, particularly successful business and then successful venture back businesses? Yeah, I think is one of the things that I've learned later on. I think my former our former CEO, a personal ever, group of called us the difference between a good business and a great business. There are lots of good businesses in the world, as you know. Say I'm that shouldn't be venture back businesses, and you and I tend to work, and probably a lot of people listening to this of tend to work, in the venter back space, and it's really about sustainable growth. And you can get lots of sustainable growth from sales and marketing and not just a product that's built for scale. And so solving those problems of growth and understanding in the way that you solve them, to turn, can determine the difference between a successful business in a Middle League business. Of course, vinger back businesses have even more accountability for very high growth, and that's sort of what I've been working on, especially the last part of my and the most recent part of my career. Tell us what you do now, and I would love an example where to your point about the right sales and marketing strategy being either applied correctly or incorrectly and in either generating a good but not great outcome versus an excellent outcome? Yeah, I think...

...it's that you need business architecture that contemplate scale, but all the time, and I would make a distinction as the pattern I see a lot. I bet you've seen Sam is what you have to be good at a startup is the opposite of what you have to be good at when you're trying to grow the sustainable prop of you know, eventually profitable business. Startups have terminal risk. So managing startup successfully in the beginning borders on the negligent. You have to actively ignore things. You have to constantly just get the company to the next level. As you begin to grow and mature, you have to pups that framework and while you are still prioritizing constantly in this sort of juggling thing, staying a hot mess doesn't work, and this is usually where in my most reason sperience. This is where I come in. You have to continue to prioritize, but you have to knit all the pieces of sales and marketing together in a model that is constantly looking for scale. And by scale I specifically mean that the next dollar is cheaper to acquire than the last. Talk Wow, so diminishing cost of acquisition, which is something I probably I don't know if I experience that very often. So how do you do that? You walked into axiom, let's say that it was going great, but let's maybe say that there was some messy situations going on. What's your strategy for bringing it together in some kind of structured, organized way? Well, this is it does apply to acting, but applies to most enterprise startups when they move from the stage of like product market fit and then really engineering the sales and marketing, one might say, machining the Commercial Organization. You are looking for efficiency and effectiveness. So that's two sides of the same coin. The best way to talk about it with teams is around productivity. So there's some common levers that eventually get used in the insuccessful enterprise. I mean the first one is specialization, all kinds of specialization. So you begin to look at your funnel carefully, and let's talk about some of the stuff that's easy to do in the stuff that most people grew up. So the stuff is easier to do is you develop SDRs and drs. You may develop a distinction between hunters and farmers. must start ups don't necessarily start out with that. You look for opportunities for telephonic sales and really push yourself for a place where you need feed field sales and then of the field sales the seniority and skill set you need. You're looking for enablement opportunities that would offer more repeatability in your sales process, and then you begin to measure things. meansuy. It's really hard to do in the beginning, but like, once you've been around for four or five years, you should really have a sense of your different sale cycle. So that's just a major lever, of course, and if you can shorten sale cycle, you change your productivity. So you've got like you have your levers in mind and you begin to get a much better picture of your data models, your sales data model, and you do this every day. It becomes a habit, it becomes the operating framework for sales and marketing. What are the metrics that you're to your point about your data model? Are there specific Apis or things that you're looking at every single day to tell you, you know, that where true north is and if you're moving in the right direction? Yeah, and they're distinct from the things that are telling you how you're going to do this month. Right. They're actually the things that are showing you whether you becoming whether you may be finding scale. So they're probably around. First of all, what your customers are paying in a couple different ways. But you know what's the first sale with the upsale? How are they actually and then that translates into what revenue are you driving per fte or whatever? Your sales unit is usually your per quota baring salesperson. And sale cycle is another one. How do you shorten stale? Well, let's see, how did that end the past? I mean one of the ways you certain sale cycle is you really carefully design your territories territory optimization. Sale cycles get long when territories gets diffuse. Now I'm over simplifying, of...

...course, because that not that. That is not necessarily true. There are some types when you're entering a market where you really want your sales people to Skim. I don't know what term use for this saying, but you know what I mean, where they have a big territory and in some context they would be seen as sort of a sprain prey, but another context you may want to sprain prey. You may want to go find your early adoptors in a method that allows you to reach the early adopters faster, find them and close them. That's an unattractive strategy for in a number of contexts. You know, there are times where you really want to do that. So territory and how you have to build the territories and approach the territories. This one way to think about closed in the sale cycle another parts of closing the sale cycles really hard work. I mean one of the best ways to close sale cycle is really great sales management. So there's where so you were saying art in side. There's where the art comes in. I think not as a theme that keeps emerging time and time again, and a good friend of mine, Evan Bartlett from Zac Doc, always talks about frontline management. Is the unheralded, less talked about fulcrum and lever in the business that drive this productivity and I don't think we spend enough time focused on how to develop great frontline managers and what makes a good one and what makes a bad one. Totally and I'll tell you what, I don't think I've ever done it. I've never been excellent at it. It's rocket science. It's about finding the space for it and it can be informal, but the it curriculum around it, definding what good looks like, teaching people how to become good and then finding the time and energy and all the other things have to do in the day to actually actually get that done. Yeah, but that I mean that make that made me mean fact you're investing in it, which is you know, one of the things I've seen from early executives is that we forget to ask for enough stuff because we're a little sheepish sometimes about requiring resources to do our job. In one of the big areas where I've seen vpiece of sales, early V piece of sales, fail is by not getting enough enablement resources, not getting enough training resources in place and as a consequence, the entire organization is unable to scale effectively and in the right way. I think that's absolutely right. There's two thanks. One training is I find training. I don't know how you feel about that, Sam, but I find training hard because I don't always know if I have a handle on what good looks like and what actually is working for me. That's the biggest puzzle in the enablement bucket. But going back to what we were saying about how do you scale, one of the tough and it's judgment, it's feel, but one of the tough parts of scaling is doing just what you said which is knowing when it's time to even further specialize, beyond the obvious, beyond building an inside sale team, but going further and saying it's time for us to develop a more mature opts team, it's time for us to develop an a more sophisticated stack. It's time for us, and we I went through this recently, it's time for us to develop a rigorous, assisticated sales recruiting engine that is adjacent to the sales team and not, you know, native to the sales team. Like because at the end of the day, you get past if you're hiring, you know, more than thirty, forty sales people in a given year. Probably should have somebody working on that full time and I always wait too long for that. And then you build a rigorous process for it and you start to get some like uniformity and standardization of roles, and that actually helps with the scaling process. So I think your point is a good one. It's like when to build those adjacencies to the sales function. Yeah, I think it's really, really difficult to know and I think a lot of the people that don't know or the people that are just managing for growth particularly companies. Way earlier than axiom, the board members are saying just high a bunch of sales people, and you know, sales people without infrastructure around them, and particularly, as everybody knows me talk about all the time, without any marketing support, are just going to fail and then you're going to blow up the culture and then you're not going to be able to recruit new great people because everybody's hearing that it's a bit of a shit show. So I think infrastructure and enablement is so important. One more tactical question for you and...

...then I kind of want to move on to some other topics. But you mentioned there's a common misconception that the CFO should own, as you call is it the revenue model, the revenue data model? Tell us about how youth, particular, with someone such a quantitative background, your work in modeling the results of the business and how that informs, I guess, both your personal success in your targets, but just how you approach building up the revenue plan for a business that's doing, you know, over three hundred million dollars in revenue. It's a great question because, and I've spent a lot of my career working on this and I think one of the big mistakes I made that I'm a sort of realized later was this is not the CFO's job. I'm your partner to the CFO and if you know, depending on the CFO that you get to work with, the CFO may be a major contributor to your commercial data and revenue plan, but if you're has sales, it's your job. You've got to own that. I called the data model and and when I say the data model, I mean the sales and marketing data model, which includes revenue. But it doesn't just include revenue. I mean revenue is a big part of your data model. That I don't think a CFO would describe it like that. That's okay, because the CFO is a different job in the head of sales to the head of revenue, let's call it. Recently I was looking at how we should design our sales operations and strategy team and I called a couple of bigger companies at first. Person I called is the head of sales operations and strategy for Linkedin. It's a giant team and it includes a big function called sales finance, and it's not a bad idea to look at these larger companies and how that function eventually turns out, because you're building the embryo. As you began to build sales operations, you build your data model. That's the intellectual ancestor of what will eventually be a pretty large function. CRM usually live there. Sometimes marketing, analytic and operations can live with sales operations in larger companies than in fact, I think it's a really good thing if it does commonly. So the first thing I would say is that if your head of revenue, the data model is your model. How do you build it? Well, the first thing you do if you build in the stuff you know or can estimate. Things like so cycle, things like they you know the initial ACV or engagement value or subscription cost. Now most data models like this is because it's focused on revenue, because in its purpose is delivering revenue. It's not focus usually on profitability. We're going to leave that for finance, but we're really going to look at the the key dependencies or correlates to revenue, and so then you understand where your levers are. And if you take a look at first of all, it's a great thing to be deductive here. I tend you know, be kind of scientific method like. Here's what I think it should be, here's my hypothesis. If the following things are true, then my hypothesis is true, but if the following things are not true, then I've got the I've got the model wrong, and so if we proceed on these assumptions, are going to fail. I find that the most helpful way to govern how I grow revenue is to really understand what my lovers are. I mean you may look at your levers and go look, we can't change pricing right now. The initial price we get from a customer is going to say the same. So what are the other levers we can change? You get a you know, figure out what you can the dials you can move to move them. What are the some of the dials that you know, just to be a one layer more specific, so revenue, average deal size, sale cycle length. But YOU'RE A head of marketing too, so I'm sure you've got insights on further up the funnel dials that you can twist and maneuver. What are some of those that you're commonly looking at? Our evaluating right now. I have not worked in the very most advanced demand Jen Legion marketing, I would say, in fact, these things tend to get developed too late in many startups. I've certainly been. Those are mistakes that I've made. I've always developed marketing too late. I'm not going to make that mistake next time. By the way, by marketing, just be clear, I mean demand and marketing that delivers pipeline. And you could define pipeline anyway. What you can, you know, decide where the SDRs and B ares live in the marketing or sales...

...world. But at the end of the day, is your marketing delivering a certain amount of leads that are going to become customers and the levers that marketing has tend to be? Not just how much are you willing to spend to get those pipelines? Who? That's all. That's a dynamic. That's the dying of a piece of the model right like well, but which one, how fast and how much time are we willing to have spent allowing those prospects to raise their hand and say I'm ready, or are we just going to you know, is it sort of like, you know, we're going to meet them, they're going to interface with our message in some way in in some medium and then you know we're not going to date, we're just going to ask them to get married. You know what I mean? Like I saw those sort of things. And, by the way, those things are not the most sophisticated demand on marketing you've ever heard. Those are the basics. Yeah, I mean, I think to the point about your success, you seem to be able to articulate it, even if you don't consider yourself an expert, in a way that is that sort of simplifies and clarifies at the same time. So Kudos to you and I guess I take it from your perspective. I've seen executive team struggle with is they get religion about marketing. They say, okay, great, I get it. We can't close deals without pipeline. We need marketing to generate pipeline. The next thing I say is, okay, well, I'm going to snap my fingers. Sam, can you help us find, you know, a great head of marketing? And the answer as well? To your point, marketing is a message and the amount of time it takes for that message to sort of indoctrinate itself within the host organism, and that takes time and I can't just spin up pipeline for it to close next month. Next month was baked six months ago. If you want me to do something about marketing, we can do that, but we're talking about the second half of the year at this point. Exactly, I don't see yet consistently fails leaders and marketing leaders really learning to speak each other's language. I don't feel like we have had a consistent besides in some great company, the marriage between sales and marketing so that they actually work together. Well. There's a bunch of different debates. One of them is, hey, we want sales and marketing to fight, because that's a constructive tension within the business. There's the other part of it, which is I feel like marketing feels a little under the gun and threatened right now and I think the sales leaders always banging the table for more leads, better leads in the marketing person if they're not doing it the right way, they're forced to spend time educating the business, often in times where the business doesn't have the patients to listen. And so I think no, I haven't seen it work really, really well and I've frankly seen some of the best marketing leaders that are my peers specifically say hey, I don't want to report to sales. I don't wanting to maintain a very clear distinction between the functions, which can be both a blessing and a curse. So I think it's still don't think that actually say a work. Yeah, actually think it works and I know I may be in the minority and you know we all have limited and we've all only worked with so many companies, but I actually think, first of all, my most recent head of marketing, what had done sales before and she's also highly analytical. I actually wonder if there's a setup where at least marketing operations or the demansion part of marketing actually lives in the same organism as sales, or at least part of sales, and reports up to you know, some commercial leader, maybe it's the crow, and you find another place for the brand of keting person. You actually separate the person or people that are working on the overall message of the company, press the brand, which, by the way, I've learned over time is incredibly important, and I an earlier my career I definitely undervalued brand something worthy of investment in sophistication on. But I wonder if it just lives somewhere else, because, although they do, it's important that they be integrated in some way. The messaging of the brand lives in the messaging in the Divans, and marketing of course, otherwise the different objectives. And so recently that's what I've done. We at actually we actually put man Jin and sales more or less in the same organization, reporting it to the same person, which sort of ended up with...

...me, and I wouldn't say that we we nailed it, but over time I think that's the only way you're going to actually end up with an integrated funnel. I think you're dropping a lot of knowledge right now, Jess. The last thing I would have I had is there might even be a world because marketing, man, that word means everything. It can mean a million different things, and so I think first of all formalizing a definition of marketing is important, but I also can see a World War demandain is not marketing and it's not sales. It's a three step journey, three departments. Yes, for probably hours and hours. There's another important part of your journey, particularly in the modern political environment, in the modern social environment, in our society, which is the fact that you are an accomplished woman and gender, you know, is a fact of life. You know, I guess to what extent you feel has it played a role in your career? I mean, obviously it's play a role in your life because it's part of who you are, but how's it played a role in your career in specifically, you know, you mentioned to me offline you think New York City is a better place for diversity. Love to hear your thoughts for the women that are listening to this, how they can think about modeling their career and their choices on your pattern, which is clearly incredibly successful. Yeah, well, I love I mean maybe I'll. I'll buy into that in a couple different paragraphs. I really think New York is a great place, especially the tech and startup seeing it's a great place for women and probably other types of diversity, including different age groups of people in different parts of their career, including LGBTQ, including people of color and and other diversity. So I actually think, and I know I'm not the only one too. You I there are there are nights where, like you know, we're having beers and there are a few women in text talking, and I think this is something that's been I'm not the first to voice. Now I could be super cynical, Sam and say there are just like a lot of consumer companies and lip glass companies and things, and that would be found sexist and also probably true in New York City. New York has a lot of tech enabal services, a lot of digital and consumer product technology start up. But I really think it's true. And maybe it's just because what's the old thing about? Like I like a town with more than one kind of asshole and I think New York as sounds more the one kind of asshole. So maybe that's you know, there's some women assholes too. I do think the arts of great place that, as you think about as a woman leader and someone you know who's really up in my ey mid careers have even might be his career. Anyway, as so many's approaching the middle of my career, I have now, I think, realize that I have a real responsibility to think about gender, probably more than I did earlier in my career, and it has to do with bringing other people up and I think there's a natural vigilance I have now and a couple different arenas. First of all, you know, if you're charismatic person, no matter who you are, you should be vigilant for bias, because bias. So that's something I'm naturally just looking for. And whether it's, you know, an early career person calling women girls in the office and just say, I think you mean women. There are any girls working here and I know I'm a woman. You know, it's just it was right. So I think that's some vigilance that you keep, kind of just wear it on your sleeve, but you're in you help other people to be vigilant around bias, and sometimes I goes a little for this. Sometimes you say, wait a second, we're making this decision about this talented person. We make the same decision if she were a man. You know. Yeah, so it's like a little beyond the correction. But what you're doing is you're showing other people how to lead and how to look as leaders. You're developing leaders. As leaders, you're looking for bias and you just try to make sure that you're seeking it out and sensitive to it and just doing some course correction. Frankly, I have sometimes is I want there to be more great I want them to be more diversity in the leadership ranks and diversity comming in a lot of different things, but but it definitely also means gender. It also means people of Color. But the pool of selection is often not it's not big enough.

So what do you how do you tackle that? And I feel like we've going to hire next CTO, your next CFO, and you want that part even like wow, I think we can add another woman. And we're old enough that we know what it's like to be in a board room or executive room or just in a room with leaders and there's like one woman and I got to tell you, as as someone who's sometimes that one woman, it feels like shit and it's angering and I'm someone with little kids. And some people call this the leaky pipeline. It's been looked at a lot and it turns out that this leaky pipeline that is women seem to be falling out of the Labor Pool in mid career, happened in government, in academia, in education, in finance, in business, it happens across industries and when it's been looked at in depth, a lot of that variation can be explained by people starting families now it's not all, interestingly, it's not all explained by people having family, because woman does not equal mother and there are lots of parents, not just women, who have kids and decide to step out and there are lots of parents or take a break, and there are less of parents who decide to, you know, continue and they find ways to do that. So there are some structural things that we can work on, definitely, and I get asked about it a lot. One thing I can tell you is that I'm really hypervisional. I think people who have worked with me would say this. I'm hyper vigilant about women who are starting of kids. Men to, but a lot of women were having kids. Is Biological and you know, it sucks to travel when you're really pregnant and it's a change of life that when you have a baby, you kind of feel like everybody else's life kept going, but minds changed so fundamentally, and so I do things like and by the way, no one did this for me, and I think the time in my life I felt least supported, with the exceptional course of friends and family and my husband, was when I was starting to have kids. At Work I purposely take women aside as you know, they're starting a family and I say, I want you to come back. I want you to do whatever is best for you and your family, but I want you back and we're going to help you. And I done it and it's not easy. And then they go away and you check in with them a little bit, but you'll let them stay as long as you possibly can, and then when they come back, you do things that provide a little more support. So you're providing things like a buddy, someone who's just come back from maternity leave, maybe the year before. You're providing things like understanding of travel or I commonly tell people that the top this part or the only time I my career that I felt at a disadvantage for being a woman, it's when I was nursing. And you know, I just heard a story from a friend of she was pumping on an airplane in a middle aisle because you have to, and she had to do the business trip, and so it just identifying those things and, by the way, they are so powerful when they're done my men and women, and the Nice thing I see is men taking time off to have kids and men going to the school play at leaving work to go to the school play and that I know used to be mostly women. I see a big difference, even in my career, of seeing men doing that too. So cause, anyway, I think there are controversial and I'm asking as somebody that you know, I want to be a good partner for the women that I work with. How do you balance the business needs, particularly in adventure backed business looking for hyper growth? Or is that a in my fell of Shit? Is that a bullshit? You know, console it's where I'm trying to think about. Like, listen, I want to be a supportive as possible, but this is capitalism, it's rough and it's for profit and we've got a number to hit this month and this quarter in this year and hey, by the way, we spend more money than we make. So if we don't show the right trajectory, everything changes in the business when we go out to raise more money. So how do I balance those harsh sort of realities with my sincere desire to provide a supportive and, as you know, accommodating a workplace as possible for people that are...

...making these decisions? You well, they're a couple answers to that question. The first is it's a venture back business. It's full of grown up and in modern society we make time for people to have kids, and so you don't get a pass just because your venture back business. I've heard that argument many times and I think it's mostly bullshit. If you want to build a business in the United States, get lots of advantages with one of the things you have to do if you have to be a good employer and once you start employing more than the founders, you're an employer and you have to play by some rules. In my opinion, also it's just a matter of ethics, like do the right thing, like you don't cheat to get ahead as a venture back business, and I view not being a good employer to a certain degree is cheating. So that's number one. Now, having said that, I know exactly what you means them. I mean we're all racing ahead. I mean how do you build a comp plan for an adventure back business where burn rate is so critical and you got people take them leave and they didn't contribute, and I know how that feels. It's hard. It's hard that. You know. I've been in a situation where I've got a bunch of people out on on leave. That one. It can be crushing. I think there is an honest conversation you can have with people about the choices they make and even saying to people it's okay for you to take a break or do a different job for a few years. Now my advice, when people want my personal advice, I usually say don't leave the job pool completely for years because it's so hard to get back in. It's not impossible. If you need to take time, take time, but it's okay to take a step back. And I give the speech about your career as in a ladder. It's monkey bars, and I'm sure I'm not the one who came up with that, and I give examples of that and that working in this business context. By the way, like other contexts, this venture back businesses aren't the only intense, high sacrifice employer context and the employment context in the world. There's the military, there's government, there's being a corporate lawyer, there's finance. So you're going to have to make sacrifices and your family, including your spouse, will have to make sacrifices and you have to kind of sign up for that. I think people in venture back businesses already know it, but that's absolutely true. It's such a pleasure chatting with you. So we've got a little bit of time left and I really really appreciate all your insights. Let's get some final thoughts and let's figure out where else the bread crome trail may lead. So you know, just who are your mentors like? When you think about people that have influenced you and you want to celebrate some people, you know, we want to know the names of the people that have helped you along the way. Who are those people and who are some of your favorite vipiece of sales you know that have helped you along the way? Oh, that's great. First of all, I'm big believer in mentors. I'm constantly connecting people on mentory kind of relationships. Say, I don't know if you fill this way, Sam, but as I my career as advanced, the notion of role models and advisors and mentors and people whose advice I seek out so kind of blending together and I find when I was seeking wisdom and advice, I really role models. I look a lot at my pierce that maybe there are people who are a little ahead of me or maybe even a little behind me. So I think some of my best advisors and role models are, as someone you know, Christy Reardon, feel of the flat iron schools. That's now we work. Sheila Gulatti, a tole of capital, Nancy Lovelin, who that crisis text line and just started laurs. And I'm naming women. Good do it. Maybe they can make the podcast at some point yes the day. McLaughlin is one. She's a CEO of envelope. Michelle Green, who's start helping to start the long term stock exchanges, is really exciting. Founders in New York especially. I mean Hidi Messer, Nancy Lovelin, for I buy, Kate Frewser a favorites outside of New York, King to be, and Keeni Amy Chang, I don't know personally, but really excited about her new business and investors, especially in New York. I mean Katerina fake, Glenda Rottenberg through endeavor, Lizzie Kleine Shane, a fisher. And then there are a lot of their emerging great tech writers. I mean one that I love that I always follow, increase.

She will raise Jesse Himpele's not wired, but she founded and launched back channel, its rate insights on tech. I read everything she writes. So thanks for allowing me to know. That was amazing. These great women. I very much appreciate it. We've got a pay homage to them and it's great that you've got that list. So, Jess, last thing I'll tell you, by the way, you've got to connect with with Liz young from rhanamy. She's part of the New York revenue collective and she's I think you guys would really hit it off, and so I hope at the next I guess we'll have a happy hour and a couple weeks our next week. I hope you guys a bind each other. So I think we should do a moderated panel on the biological basis of behavior and women in stem what do you think? I would listen to it. You know, I've been reading a lot of you know, like read Hurrari and you know, like I've been reading of Man, like I've been reading all about Australopithecus and the origins of God. Yeah, so I think we got have a lot to talk about offline and evolution, because I'm fascinated by it. I think it's like the most beautiful thing. Thank you so much for participating. It was a great pleasure. Yeah, I will see you soon in person. I'm going to give you back the rest of your Saturday and thank you again for participating. We loved having you. Oh there was so much fun. Thanks for having me. Take care by now. Hi Everybody, this is Sam Jacobs and this is Sam's corner. What an incredible interview with Jess Hunt. You can really tell when somebody has spent a lot of time in non sales related disciplines, and jess is a trained psychologist and a trained paliontologist and her insights on how to build a sales marketing funnel are very powerful. I think one of the other things that she said, which I hope everybody picked up on, she said as she was thinking about what she wanted her operations team to look like, she called the head of sales operations and strategy at Linkedin and I think, and she said, that you know she in her role at Axiom, was the embryo of a larger, more fully developed organism down the road. So I think that's a really powerful insight. When you're looking at where you want to take your company to go in the future, look for companies that have been there already and then try to connect with those people that are in leadership roles to understand some of their learnings and best practices. I also think, just as a professional and mentor to Women in the workforce, Jess is a really powerful leader. If you want to connect with her, you can find her on Linkedin and we really think her so much. This has been Sam's corner and this has been the sales hacker podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in and I will see you next time. To check out the show notes, see upcoming guests and play more episodes from our incredible lineup of sales leaders, visit sales hackercom podcast. You can also find the sales hacking podcast on itunes or people play. If you enjoyed this episode, please give us a share on Linkedin, twitter or any other social media platform. And finally, special thanks again to this month's sponsor, at node. See more at Info dotnode dot IO. Forward sales hacker. Finally, if you want to get in touch with me, find me on twitter at Sam f Jacobs or on Linkedin at linkedincom slash in slash Sam f Jacobs. I'll see you next time.

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