The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

3: Why Your CFO Shouldn’t Own the Revenue Model w/ Jess Hunt


On this episode of the Sales Hacker podcast, we talk with Jessica Hunt, Executive Vice President, GM of North America, & Head of Global Marketing, Sales & Strategy for Axiom.

One, two, one, three, three Fo. Hi everyone and welcome to the sales hacker podcast. I'myour host, Sam Jacobs, founder of the New York revenue collective. Beforewe start, a quick thank you to this month's sales hacker podcast sponsor node. NODES AI discovery platform can understand the meaning, context and connection between anyperson or company by proactively surfacing opportunities that are highly relevant and personalized in realtime. Note is creating an entirely New Paradigm for sales and marketing professionals togrow pipeline and accelerate revenue velocity. Visit Info dotnode DOT ioh forward sales hackerto learn more, and now on with the show. Welcome everybody to theSales Hacker podcast. It's your host, Sam Jacobs. I'm the founder ofthe New York revenue collective. I'm so excited today to share the stage withmy friend and colleague and somebody I've known for many, many years, JessHunt, Jessica Hunt, who is one of the top entrepreneurs and operators inthe city. I originally got to know jess years ago back at Gerson LearmaGroup, and since then she's had an incredible career most recently she was executivevice president reporting to the CEO at Axiom Law, responsible for North America business, including global marketing and sales strategy. Prior to joining Axiom, she wassvp and general manager of the life sciences business at Gerson Lemmon Group. Atglg just launched in at three new businesses, professional services, life science and corporatemarkets. That resulted in over a hundred million dollars in incremental revenue.She also built and led shelgs digital products, data science and analytics teams. She'san active advocate for mental healthcare policy. She's also a vice president of theboard of directors of the National Alliance from mental illness in New York,where she focused on destigmatation of mental illness. She grew up in Iowa. Shereceived an Undergrad degree from Duke. She got a PhD from Yale.She's a very smart person. She lives in Brooklyn now and welcome to theshow. Just so excited to have you say I was really fun. I'mdelighted to be with you, to reconnect with you and also be a partof the New York revenue collective. We were, we're excited to have you, so let's start as we historically have done, and that means that threeepisodes in with your baseball card stats. So let's I'm going to just runthrough to help frame your expertise to everybody. So your name. What's your name, Jim, and what's your current title and most recent title? Mymost recent title I was I was any VP at axiom law. I washead of North American sales and I was head of global marketing. And Giveus how big is axiom law and what does axiom do, for those thatdon't know? So axium it well into the nine figures and revenue. It'sa seventeen year old startup. It's a market place for attorneys for large enterprise. It's sometimes referred to as in the alternative legal services space. It's anovel model for are acquiring legal services for big companies and we've I don't know, we've got it maybe about four hundred employees, maybe a little more thanthat now. And for the folks that are listening, nine figures means overa hundred million dollars in revenue. So for those that are struggling to getfrom two million a rr to five million a R or even up to thetwenty mark. Jess as I has experienced building companies, while north of ahundred million. And then how long have you been in startup land, jessor, you know, in high growth land, however you want to defineit? Yeah, high growth like because I have built businesses off the groundfrom zero. But I tend to be the person that comes in and helponce you've got product market fit and it's you're really ready to begin to scalethe commercial operations, sale, the marketing teams that really grow revenue. SoI've mostly focused on later stage venture back company. So let's say I've beendoing that for about fourteen years. Fourteen years, that's excellent. So reallyquickly. You know, we read, I read in the in the Intro, that you grew up in Iowa, which is amazing, but then youwent to Duke, you got a PhD at Yale. How did you endup in this role? Give us a little bit of your background in yourorigin. Yeah, it's not obvious. I was studying human paleontology, sothe evolution of humans and and other primates,...

...those digging up fossils of human ancestorsand working a museum and I, like many people, some people,began to realize maybe I wasn't good enough to be a scientist. So Ifinished my graduate degree and then I went to work on a Pumpkin farm wowin Ohio for a while and as I was I I reconnected with some friendsfrom school who had started a company and it was about, I think,four years old when I joined. It was called Girson Lemon Group. Ididn't know a thing about business. I had been an academic and I didn'tknow what a stock was, but I joined in an entry level, youknow, role in a growing start up. I think we were definitely the tensof millions. I think maybe Sam were already there. What year wasthat? Two Thousand and four. Yeah, I was there beginning two thousand andthree. We were well into the tens of millions. Jaff we were, yeah, probably around thirty to forty million, I think at the endof a four was Northritian are are. Yeah, so we were going andI saw I was in a customer successful and then the CEO at the time, who I didn't even know, knew my name, took me up forbreakfast and asked me to join the Sales Team and I was bewildered and toldhim know, implying. I think that you know, I'm an intellectual,without pointing out what a asshole I sounded like. He eventually taught me andjoining the sales team and I loved it. So I carried a bag and thenI built and ran sales teams and really, really love that time inmy career. And then I became a GM around. It was a roundmarketing and product and learned a hell of a lot about business and eventually evenbuilt the data science team at first learning group. But I would call myselfan entrepreneurial executive and not necessarily an entrepreneur, but as I have as my careersprogressed, I'd steed really close to sales and marketing. Why do youthink that is? Well, first of all it's what I know, butI also think that I you know, when I was doing my graduate workand it was quantitative and I think that there's a certain amount of inner personalskill that comes with with sales and if you're gregarious, you're persuasive, youcan really enjoy a sales career. But if you are a system thinker,that's kind of how your brain works with numbers, with data, it canreally enhance your effectiveness as a leader and I think that's probably that. Youknow, if I look for anything that's transferable to my stays as a paleoncolleges, they think that's probably what it is. Could be a stretch?No, I believe it. I think to your point, a lot ofpeople say that sales and marketing is both art and science, and when Ilook at sales executives and people that are upandcoming, it's often the lack oforganization in the lack of process is often the thing that ends up being thereundoing. So when you think about the last fourteen years, a big chunkof time at Glg, then you got to axiom and there's another good friendof both of ours that has worked with you and for you and has justsaid you made it a transformational impact on axiom over the last couple of years, particular with your marketing insights. What do you think is the difference between, you know, what characterizes success, particularly successful business and then successful ventureback businesses? Yeah, I think is one of the things that I've learnedlater on. I think my former our former CEO, a personal ever,group of called us the difference between a good business and a great business.There are lots of good businesses in the world, as you know. SayI'm that shouldn't be venture back businesses, and you and I tend to work, and probably a lot of people listening to this of tend to work,in the venter back space, and it's really about sustainable growth. And youcan get lots of sustainable growth from sales and marketing and not just a productthat's built for scale. And so solving those problems of growth and understanding inthe way that you solve them, to turn, can determine the difference betweena successful business in a Middle League business. Of course, vinger back businesses haveeven more accountability for very high growth, and that's sort of what I've beenworking on, especially the last part of my and the most recent partof my career. Tell us what you do now, and I would lovean example where to your point about the right sales and marketing strategy being eitherapplied correctly or incorrectly and in either generating a good but not great outcome versusan excellent outcome? Yeah, I think...'s that you need business architecture thatcontemplate scale, but all the time, and I would make a distinction asthe pattern I see a lot. I bet you've seen Sam is what youhave to be good at a startup is the opposite of what you have tobe good at when you're trying to grow the sustainable prop of you know,eventually profitable business. Startups have terminal risk. So managing startup successfully in the beginningborders on the negligent. You have to actively ignore things. You haveto constantly just get the company to the next level. As you begin togrow and mature, you have to pups that framework and while you are stillprioritizing constantly in this sort of juggling thing, staying a hot mess doesn't work,and this is usually where in my most reason sperience. This is whereI come in. You have to continue to prioritize, but you have toknit all the pieces of sales and marketing together in a model that is constantlylooking for scale. And by scale I specifically mean that the next dollar ischeaper to acquire than the last. Talk Wow, so diminishing cost of acquisition, which is something I probably I don't know if I experience that very often. So how do you do that? You walked into axiom, let's saythat it was going great, but let's maybe say that there was some messysituations going on. What's your strategy for bringing it together in some kind ofstructured, organized way? Well, this is it does apply to acting,but applies to most enterprise startups when they move from the stage of like productmarket fit and then really engineering the sales and marketing, one might say,machining the Commercial Organization. You are looking for efficiency and effectiveness. So that'stwo sides of the same coin. The best way to talk about it withteams is around productivity. So there's some common levers that eventually get used inthe insuccessful enterprise. I mean the first one is specialization, all kinds ofspecialization. So you begin to look at your funnel carefully, and let's talkabout some of the stuff that's easy to do in the stuff that most peoplegrew up. So the stuff is easier to do is you develop SDRs anddrs. You may develop a distinction between hunters and farmers. must start upsdon't necessarily start out with that. You look for opportunities for telephonic sales andreally push yourself for a place where you need feed field sales and then ofthe field sales the seniority and skill set you need. You're looking for enablementopportunities that would offer more repeatability in your sales process, and then you beginto measure things. meansuy. It's really hard to do in the beginning,but like, once you've been around for four or five years, you shouldreally have a sense of your different sale cycle. So that's just a majorlever, of course, and if you can shorten sale cycle, you changeyour productivity. So you've got like you have your levers in mind and youbegin to get a much better picture of your data models, your sales datamodel, and you do this every day. It becomes a habit, it becomesthe operating framework for sales and marketing. What are the metrics that you're toyour point about your data model? Are there specific Apis or things thatyou're looking at every single day to tell you, you know, that wheretrue north is and if you're moving in the right direction? Yeah, andthey're distinct from the things that are telling you how you're going to do thismonth. Right. They're actually the things that are showing you whether you becomingwhether you may be finding scale. So they're probably around. First of all, what your customers are paying in a couple different ways. But you knowwhat's the first sale with the upsale? How are they actually and then thattranslates into what revenue are you driving per fte or whatever? Your sales unitis usually your per quota baring salesperson. And sale cycle is another one.How do you shorten stale? Well, let's see, how did that endthe past? I mean one of the ways you certain sale cycle is youreally carefully design your territories territory optimization. Sale cycles get long when territories getsdiffuse. Now I'm over simplifying, of...

...course, because that not that.That is not necessarily true. There are some types when you're entering a marketwhere you really want your sales people to Skim. I don't know what termuse for this saying, but you know what I mean, where they havea big territory and in some context they would be seen as sort of asprain prey, but another context you may want to sprain prey. You maywant to go find your early adoptors in a method that allows you to reachthe early adopters faster, find them and close them. That's an unattractive strategyfor in a number of contexts. You know, there are times where youreally want to do that. So territory and how you have to build theterritories and approach the territories. This one way to think about closed in thesale cycle another parts of closing the sale cycles really hard work. I meanone of the best ways to close sale cycle is really great sales management.So there's where so you were saying art in side. There's where the artcomes in. I think not as a theme that keeps emerging time and timeagain, and a good friend of mine, Evan Bartlett from Zac Doc, alwaystalks about frontline management. Is the unheralded, less talked about fulcrum andlever in the business that drive this productivity and I don't think we spend enoughtime focused on how to develop great frontline managers and what makes a good oneand what makes a bad one. Totally and I'll tell you what, Idon't think I've ever done it. I've never been excellent at it. It'srocket science. It's about finding the space for it and it can be informal, but the it curriculum around it, definding what good looks like, teachingpeople how to become good and then finding the time and energy and all theother things have to do in the day to actually actually get that done.Yeah, but that I mean that make that made me mean fact you're investingin it, which is you know, one of the things I've seen fromearly executives is that we forget to ask for enough stuff because we're a littlesheepish sometimes about requiring resources to do our job. In one of the bigareas where I've seen vpiece of sales, early V piece of sales, failis by not getting enough enablement resources, not getting enough training resources in placeand as a consequence, the entire organization is unable to scale effectively and inthe right way. I think that's absolutely right. There's two thanks. Onetraining is I find training. I don't know how you feel about that,Sam, but I find training hard because I don't always know if I havea handle on what good looks like and what actually is working for me.That's the biggest puzzle in the enablement bucket. But going back to what we weresaying about how do you scale, one of the tough and it's judgment, it's feel, but one of the tough parts of scaling is doing justwhat you said which is knowing when it's time to even further specialize, beyondthe obvious, beyond building an inside sale team, but going further and sayingit's time for us to develop a more mature opts team, it's time forus to develop an a more sophisticated stack. It's time for us, and weI went through this recently, it's time for us to develop a rigorous, assisticated sales recruiting engine that is adjacent to the sales team and not,you know, native to the sales team. Like because at the end of theday, you get past if you're hiring, you know, more thanthirty, forty sales people in a given year. Probably should have somebody workingon that full time and I always wait too long for that. And thenyou build a rigorous process for it and you start to get some like uniformityand standardization of roles, and that actually helps with the scaling process. SoI think your point is a good one. It's like when to build those adjacenciesto the sales function. Yeah, I think it's really, really difficultto know and I think a lot of the people that don't know or thepeople that are just managing for growth particularly companies. Way earlier than axiom,the board members are saying just high a bunch of sales people, and youknow, sales people without infrastructure around them, and particularly, as everybody knows metalk about all the time, without any marketing support, are just goingto fail and then you're going to blow up the culture and then you're notgoing to be able to recruit new great people because everybody's hearing that it's abit of a shit show. So I think infrastructure and enablement is so important. One more tactical question for you and...

...then I kind of want to moveon to some other topics. But you mentioned there's a common misconception that theCFO should own, as you call is it the revenue model, the revenuedata model? Tell us about how youth, particular, with someone such a quantitativebackground, your work in modeling the results of the business and how thatinforms, I guess, both your personal success in your targets, but justhow you approach building up the revenue plan for a business that's doing, youknow, over three hundred million dollars in revenue. It's a great question because, and I've spent a lot of my career working on this and I thinkone of the big mistakes I made that I'm a sort of realized later wasthis is not the CFO's job. I'm your partner to the CFO and ifyou know, depending on the CFO that you get to work with, theCFO may be a major contributor to your commercial data and revenue plan, butif you're has sales, it's your job. You've got to own that. Icalled the data model and and when I say the data model, Imean the sales and marketing data model, which includes revenue. But it doesn'tjust include revenue. I mean revenue is a big part of your data model. That I don't think a CFO would describe it like that. That's okay, because the CFO is a different job in the head of sales to thehead of revenue, let's call it. Recently I was looking at how weshould design our sales operations and strategy team and I called a couple of biggercompanies at first. Person I called is the head of sales operations and strategyfor Linkedin. It's a giant team and it includes a big function called salesfinance, and it's not a bad idea to look at these larger companies andhow that function eventually turns out, because you're building the embryo. As youbegan to build sales operations, you build your data model. That's the intellectualancestor of what will eventually be a pretty large function. CRM usually live there. Sometimes marketing, analytic and operations can live with sales operations in larger companiesthan in fact, I think it's a really good thing if it does commonly. So the first thing I would say is that if your head of revenue, the data model is your model. How do you build it? Well, the first thing you do if you build in the stuff you know orcan estimate. Things like so cycle, things like they you know the initialACV or engagement value or subscription cost. Now most data models like this isbecause it's focused on revenue, because in its purpose is delivering revenue. It'snot focus usually on profitability. We're going to leave that for finance, butwe're really going to look at the the key dependencies or correlates to revenue,and so then you understand where your levers are. And if you take alook at first of all, it's a great thing to be deductive here.I tend you know, be kind of scientific method like. Here's what Ithink it should be, here's my hypothesis. If the following things are true,then my hypothesis is true, but if the following things are not true, then I've got the I've got the model wrong, and so if weproceed on these assumptions, are going to fail. I find that the mosthelpful way to govern how I grow revenue is to really understand what my loversare. I mean you may look at your levers and go look, wecan't change pricing right now. The initial price we get from a customer isgoing to say the same. So what are the other levers we can change? You get a you know, figure out what you can the dials youcan move to move them. What are the some of the dials that youknow, just to be a one layer more specific, so revenue, averagedeal size, sale cycle length. But YOU'RE A head of marketing too,so I'm sure you've got insights on further up the funnel dials that you cantwist and maneuver. What are some of those that you're commonly looking at?Our evaluating right now. I have not worked in the very most advanced demandJen Legion marketing, I would say, in fact, these things tend toget developed too late in many startups. I've certainly been. Those are mistakesthat I've made. I've always developed marketing too late. I'm not going tomake that mistake next time. By the way, by marketing, just beclear, I mean demand and marketing that delivers pipeline. And you could definepipeline anyway. What you can, you know, decide where the SDRs andB ares live in the marketing or sales... But at the end ofthe day, is your marketing delivering a certain amount of leads that are goingto become customers and the levers that marketing has tend to be? Not justhow much are you willing to spend to get those pipelines? Who? That'sall. That's a dynamic. That's the dying of a piece of the modelright like well, but which one, how fast and how much time arewe willing to have spent allowing those prospects to raise their hand and say I'mready, or are we just going to you know, is it sort oflike, you know, we're going to meet them, they're going to interfacewith our message in some way in in some medium and then you know we'renot going to date, we're just going to ask them to get married.You know what I mean? Like I saw those sort of things. And, by the way, those things are not the most sophisticated demand on marketingyou've ever heard. Those are the basics. Yeah, I mean, I thinkto the point about your success, you seem to be able to articulateit, even if you don't consider yourself an expert, in a way thatis that sort of simplifies and clarifies at the same time. So Kudos toyou and I guess I take it from your perspective. I've seen executive teamstruggle with is they get religion about marketing. They say, okay, great,I get it. We can't close deals without pipeline. We need marketingto generate pipeline. The next thing I say is, okay, well,I'm going to snap my fingers. Sam, can you help us find, youknow, a great head of marketing? And the answer as well? Toyour point, marketing is a message and the amount of time it takesfor that message to sort of indoctrinate itself within the host organism, and thattakes time and I can't just spin up pipeline for it to close next month. Next month was baked six months ago. If you want me to do somethingabout marketing, we can do that, but we're talking about the second halfof the year at this point. Exactly, I don't see yet consistentlyfails leaders and marketing leaders really learning to speak each other's language. I don'tfeel like we have had a consistent besides in some great company, the marriagebetween sales and marketing so that they actually work together. Well. There's abunch of different debates. One of them is, hey, we want salesand marketing to fight, because that's a constructive tension within the business. There'sthe other part of it, which is I feel like marketing feels a littleunder the gun and threatened right now and I think the sales leaders always bangingthe table for more leads, better leads in the marketing person if they're notdoing it the right way, they're forced to spend time educating the business,often in times where the business doesn't have the patients to listen. And soI think no, I haven't seen it work really, really well and I'vefrankly seen some of the best marketing leaders that are my peers specifically say hey, I don't want to report to sales. I don't wanting to maintain a veryclear distinction between the functions, which can be both a blessing and acurse. So I think it's still don't think that actually say a work.Yeah, actually think it works and I know I may be in the minorityand you know we all have limited and we've all only worked with so manycompanies, but I actually think, first of all, my most recent headof marketing, what had done sales before and she's also highly analytical. Iactually wonder if there's a setup where at least marketing operations or the demansion partof marketing actually lives in the same organism as sales, or at least partof sales, and reports up to you know, some commercial leader, maybeit's the crow, and you find another place for the brand of keting person. You actually separate the person or people that are working on the overall messageof the company, press the brand, which, by the way, I'velearned over time is incredibly important, and I an earlier my career I definitelyundervalued brand something worthy of investment in sophistication on. But I wonder if itjust lives somewhere else, because, although they do, it's important that theybe integrated in some way. The messaging of the brand lives in the messagingin the Divans, and marketing of course, otherwise the different objectives. And sorecently that's what I've done. We at actually we actually put man Jinand sales more or less in the same organization, reporting it to the sameperson, which sort of ended up with..., and I wouldn't say thatwe we nailed it, but over time I think that's the only way you'regoing to actually end up with an integrated funnel. I think you're dropping alot of knowledge right now, Jess. The last thing I would have Ihad is there might even be a world because marketing, man, that wordmeans everything. It can mean a million different things, and so I thinkfirst of all formalizing a definition of marketing is important, but I also cansee a World War demandain is not marketing and it's not sales. It's athree step journey, three departments. Yes, for probably hours and hours. There'sanother important part of your journey, particularly in the modern political environment, inthe modern social environment, in our society, which is the fact that you arean accomplished woman and gender, you know, is a fact of life. You know, I guess to what extent you feel has it played arole in your career? I mean, obviously it's play a role in yourlife because it's part of who you are, but how's it played a role inyour career in specifically, you know, you mentioned to me offline you thinkNew York City is a better place for diversity. Love to hear yourthoughts for the women that are listening to this, how they can think aboutmodeling their career and their choices on your pattern, which is clearly incredibly successful. Yeah, well, I love I mean maybe I'll. I'll buy intothat in a couple different paragraphs. I really think New York is a greatplace, especially the tech and startup seeing it's a great place for women andprobably other types of diversity, including different age groups of people in different partsof their career, including LGBTQ, including people of color and and other diversity. So I actually think, and I know I'm not the only one too. You I there are there are nights where, like you know, we'rehaving beers and there are a few women in text talking, and I thinkthis is something that's been I'm not the first to voice. Now I couldbe super cynical, Sam and say there are just like a lot of consumercompanies and lip glass companies and things, and that would be found sexist andalso probably true in New York City. New York has a lot of techenabal services, a lot of digital and consumer product technology start up. ButI really think it's true. And maybe it's just because what's the old thingabout? Like I like a town with more than one kind of asshole andI think New York as sounds more the one kind of asshole. So maybethat's you know, there's some women assholes too. I do think the artsof great place that, as you think about as a woman leader and someoneyou know who's really up in my ey mid careers have even might be hiscareer. Anyway, as so many's approaching the middle of my career, Ihave now, I think, realize that I have a real responsibility to thinkabout gender, probably more than I did earlier in my career, and ithas to do with bringing other people up and I think there's a natural vigilanceI have now and a couple different arenas. First of all, you know,if you're charismatic person, no matter who you are, you should bevigilant for bias, because bias. So that's something I'm naturally just looking for. And whether it's, you know, an early career person calling women girlsin the office and just say, I think you mean women. There areany girls working here and I know I'm a woman. You know, it'sjust it was right. So I think that's some vigilance that you keep,kind of just wear it on your sleeve, but you're in you help other peopleto be vigilant around bias, and sometimes I goes a little for this. Sometimes you say, wait a second, we're making this decision about this talentedperson. We make the same decision if she were a man. Youknow. Yeah, so it's like a little beyond the correction. But whatyou're doing is you're showing other people how to lead and how to look asleaders. You're developing leaders. As leaders, you're looking for bias and you justtry to make sure that you're seeking it out and sensitive to it andjust doing some course correction. Frankly, I have sometimes is I want thereto be more great I want them to be more diversity in the leadership ranksand diversity comming in a lot of different things, but but it definitely alsomeans gender. It also means people of Color. But the pool of selectionis often not it's not big enough.

So what do you how do youtackle that? And I feel like we've going to hire next CTO, yournext CFO, and you want that part even like wow, I think wecan add another woman. And we're old enough that we know what it's liketo be in a board room or executive room or just in a room withleaders and there's like one woman and I got to tell you, as assomeone who's sometimes that one woman, it feels like shit and it's angering andI'm someone with little kids. And some people call this the leaky pipeline.It's been looked at a lot and it turns out that this leaky pipeline thatis women seem to be falling out of the Labor Pool in mid career,happened in government, in academia, in education, in finance, in business, it happens across industries and when it's been looked at in depth, alot of that variation can be explained by people starting families now it's not all, interestingly, it's not all explained by people having family, because woman doesnot equal mother and there are lots of parents, not just women, whohave kids and decide to step out and there are lots of parents or takea break, and there are less of parents who decide to, you know, continue and they find ways to do that. So there are some structuralthings that we can work on, definitely, and I get asked about it alot. One thing I can tell you is that I'm really hypervisional.I think people who have worked with me would say this. I'm hyper vigilantabout women who are starting of kids. Men to, but a lot ofwomen were having kids. Is Biological and you know, it sucks to travelwhen you're really pregnant and it's a change of life that when you have ababy, you kind of feel like everybody else's life kept going, but mindschanged so fundamentally, and so I do things like and by the way,no one did this for me, and I think the time in my lifeI felt least supported, with the exceptional course of friends and family and myhusband, was when I was starting to have kids. At Work I purposelytake women aside as you know, they're starting a family and I say,I want you to come back. I want you to do whatever is bestfor you and your family, but I want you back and we're going tohelp you. And I done it and it's not easy. And then theygo away and you check in with them a little bit, but you'll letthem stay as long as you possibly can, and then when they come back,you do things that provide a little more support. So you're providing thingslike a buddy, someone who's just come back from maternity leave, maybe theyear before. You're providing things like understanding of travel or I commonly tell peoplethat the top this part or the only time I my career that I feltat a disadvantage for being a woman, it's when I was nursing. Andyou know, I just heard a story from a friend of she was pumpingon an airplane in a middle aisle because you have to, and she hadto do the business trip, and so it just identifying those things and,by the way, they are so powerful when they're done my men and women, and the Nice thing I see is men taking time off to have kidsand men going to the school play at leaving work to go to the schoolplay and that I know used to be mostly women. I see a bigdifference, even in my career, of seeing men doing that too. Socause, anyway, I think there are controversial and I'm asking as somebody thatyou know, I want to be a good partner for the women that Iwork with. How do you balance the business needs, particularly in adventure backedbusiness looking for hyper growth? Or is that a in my fell of Shit? Is that a bullshit? You know, console it's where I'm trying to thinkabout. Like, listen, I want to be a supportive as possible, but this is capitalism, it's rough and it's for profit and we've gota number to hit this month and this quarter in this year and hey,by the way, we spend more money than we make. So if wedon't show the right trajectory, everything changes in the business when we go outto raise more money. So how do I balance those harsh sort of realitieswith my sincere desire to provide a supportive and, as you know, accommodatinga workplace as possible for people that are...

...making these decisions? You well,they're a couple answers to that question. The first is it's a venture backbusiness. It's full of grown up and in modern society we make time forpeople to have kids, and so you don't get a pass just because yourventure back business. I've heard that argument many times and I think it's mostlybullshit. If you want to build a business in the United States, getlots of advantages with one of the things you have to do if you haveto be a good employer and once you start employing more than the founders,you're an employer and you have to play by some rules. In my opinion, also it's just a matter of ethics, like do the right thing, likeyou don't cheat to get ahead as a venture back business, and Iview not being a good employer to a certain degree is cheating. So that'snumber one. Now, having said that, I know exactly what you means them. I mean we're all racing ahead. I mean how do you build acomp plan for an adventure back business where burn rate is so critical andyou got people take them leave and they didn't contribute, and I know howthat feels. It's hard. It's hard that. You know. I've beenin a situation where I've got a bunch of people out on on leave.That one. It can be crushing. I think there is an honest conversationyou can have with people about the choices they make and even saying to peopleit's okay for you to take a break or do a different job for afew years. Now my advice, when people want my personal advice, Iusually say don't leave the job pool completely for years because it's so hard toget back in. It's not impossible. If you need to take time,take time, but it's okay to take a step back. And I givethe speech about your career as in a ladder. It's monkey bars, andI'm sure I'm not the one who came up with that, and I giveexamples of that and that working in this business context. By the way,like other contexts, this venture back businesses aren't the only intense, high sacrificeemployer context and the employment context in the world. There's the military, there'sgovernment, there's being a corporate lawyer, there's finance. So you're going tohave to make sacrifices and your family, including your spouse, will have tomake sacrifices and you have to kind of sign up for that. I thinkpeople in venture back businesses already know it, but that's absolutely true. It's sucha pleasure chatting with you. So we've got a little bit of timeleft and I really really appreciate all your insights. Let's get some final thoughtsand let's figure out where else the bread crome trail may lead. So youknow, just who are your mentors like? When you think about people that haveinfluenced you and you want to celebrate some people, you know, wewant to know the names of the people that have helped you along the way. Who are those people and who are some of your favorite vipiece of salesyou know that have helped you along the way? Oh, that's great.First of all, I'm big believer in mentors. I'm constantly connecting people onmentory kind of relationships. Say, I don't know if you fill this way, Sam, but as I my career as advanced, the notion of rolemodels and advisors and mentors and people whose advice I seek out so kind ofblending together and I find when I was seeking wisdom and advice, I reallyrole models. I look a lot at my pierce that maybe there are peoplewho are a little ahead of me or maybe even a little behind me.So I think some of my best advisors and role models are, as someoneyou know, Christy Reardon, feel of the flat iron schools. That's nowwe work. Sheila Gulatti, a tole of capital, Nancy Lovelin, whothat crisis text line and just started laurs. And I'm naming women. Good doit. Maybe they can make the podcast at some point yes the day. McLaughlin is one. She's a CEO of envelope. Michelle Green, who'sstart helping to start the long term stock exchanges, is really exciting. Foundersin New York especially. I mean Hidi Messer, Nancy Lovelin, for Ibuy, Kate Frewser a favorites outside of New York, King to be,and Keeni Amy Chang, I don't know personally, but really excited about hernew business and investors, especially in New York. I mean Katerina fake,Glenda Rottenberg through endeavor, Lizzie Kleine Shane, a fisher. And then there area lot of their emerging great tech writers. I mean one that Ilove that I always follow, increase.

She will raise Jesse Himpele's not wired, but she founded and launched back channel, its rate insights on tech. Iread everything she writes. So thanks for allowing me to know. Thatwas amazing. These great women. I very much appreciate it. We've gota pay homage to them and it's great that you've got that list. So, Jess, last thing I'll tell you, by the way, you've got toconnect with with Liz young from rhanamy. She's part of the New York revenuecollective and she's I think you guys would really hit it off, andso I hope at the next I guess we'll have a happy hour and acouple weeks our next week. I hope you guys a bind each other.So I think we should do a moderated panel on the biological basis of behaviorand women in stem what do you think? I would listen to it. Youknow, I've been reading a lot of you know, like read Hurrariand you know, like I've been reading of Man, like I've been readingall about Australopithecus and the origins of God. Yeah, so I think we gothave a lot to talk about offline and evolution, because I'm fascinated byit. I think it's like the most beautiful thing. Thank you so muchfor participating. It was a great pleasure. Yeah, I will see you soonin person. I'm going to give you back the rest of your Saturdayand thank you again for participating. We loved having you. Oh there wasso much fun. Thanks for having me. Take care by now. Hi Everybody, this is Sam Jacobs and this is Sam's corner. What an incredibleinterview with Jess Hunt. You can really tell when somebody has spent a lotof time in non sales related disciplines, and jess is a trained psychologist anda trained paliontologist and her insights on how to build a sales marketing funnel arevery powerful. I think one of the other things that she said, whichI hope everybody picked up on, she said as she was thinking about whatshe wanted her operations team to look like, she called the head of sales operationsand strategy at Linkedin and I think, and she said, that you knowshe in her role at Axiom, was the embryo of a larger,more fully developed organism down the road. So I think that's a really powerfulinsight. When you're looking at where you want to take your company to goin the future, look for companies that have been there already and then tryto connect with those people that are in leadership roles to understand some of theirlearnings and best practices. I also think, just as a professional and mentor toWomen in the workforce, Jess is a really powerful leader. If youwant to connect with her, you can find her on Linkedin and we reallythink her so much. This has been Sam's corner and this has been thesales hacker podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in and I will seeyou next time. To check out the show notes, see upcoming guests andplay more episodes from our incredible lineup of sales leaders, visit sales hackercom podcast. You can also find the sales hacking podcast on itunes or people play.If you enjoyed this episode, please give us a share on Linkedin, twitteror any other social media platform. And finally, special thanks again to thismonth's sponsor, at node. See more at Info dotnode dot IO. Forwardsales hacker. Finally, if you want to get in touch with me,find me on twitter at Sam f Jacobs or on Linkedin at linkedincom slash inslash Sam f Jacobs. I'll see you next time.

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