The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

30. The Secrets to Hyper-Scaling Sales past $50 Million ARR w/ Matt Millen

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This week on the Sales Hacker podcast, we chat with Matt Millen, SVP of Revenue at Outreach.io. Matt is a longtime sales executive having worked at large companies, like T-Mobile, and even sold at Tony Robbins. Matt walks us through his playbook for building high-performing sales teams and how to build the right kind of culture and sales mentality.

One two one: Three: Three Fov, Hey folks: It, Sam Jacobs and you're,listening to the sales hacker podcast, so welcome back to thes weetst episode.We have a fantastic episode for you lined up this week, we've got MatmillenWHOS SPP of revenue for outreached, a io one of our sponsors. We have a greatconversation with Matt. He talks all about. He developed his own salesmethodology called SAM, which is storytelling activity, N Mindset, andhe talks all about the power of mindset and how that can influence all of theoutcomes that later happen through the course of a sale cycle. He also walksus through his sales career and talks about the difference between working ata company like teamobile, where he managed over a thousand people to goingto outreach where he inherited a team of sixth, they now of a team of wellover a hundred so really great insights, particularly R, on sort of attitude,storytelling and the keys to telling a good story and engaging a buyer on thephone and he's also just a great person and a former professional race carddriver. So that was also quite interesting. Now, let me tell you aboutour sponsors. This week are two favorite sponsors in the world. I'vebeen with us for a couple months now the firses air call it's a phone systemdesigned for the modern sales team. So I hope at this point, if you are aloyal listener, you understand that it's really critical, that you go outand purchase all of the things that our sponsor sell. But air call is a reallyoutstanding phone system that seemlessly integrates into your crm,eliminating data entry for your reps and providing you with greatervisibility and your team's performance through advanced reporting. So whenit's time to scale, you can add lines and minutes not weeks, and you can usein call coaching to reduce Ram time for your new Reps. so the website is aircalled at io forward sales hacker please visit air called that ileforward, Fash sales tacker and mention the podcast in the lead form, and youcan see there why Uber Donan, Brad Street pipedrive and thousands ofothers PROSSD AR call for the most critical sales conversations. Also, wewant to thank outreach. OL reach that io the leading sales engagementplatform, they triple the productivity of sales teams and empower them todrive, predictable and measurable revenue growth by prioritizing theright activities and scaling customer engagement with intelligent automation,outraghmakes customer facing teams more effective and they improve visibilityinto what really drives results so hop over to outrage. Donile forrd, slatchsales tacker that website again is outreaced at Ile, forwork y sale,sacker to see ow thousands of customers and cuitting glass door, Candora andSillo rely on outrage, deliver higher revenue, por sales rap. I also want tothank our wonderful fans, a couple people that have just reached outreally enthosiastically Sean Quenlan. If you're out there D thank you EllenHammanforse Bill Rufo and are Zucker. Those are some of the folks havereached out to me on linkeon. Thank you for listening. We really appreciate itand without further ado, let us listen to this week's episode with Matt Millinfrom outreach, Hey everybody! It's Sam Jacobs, yourfriendly neighborhood sales, podcast post and I'm super excited. This week.We've got the head of revenue for one of the fastest growing companies.Perhaps in the world definitely in the United States and definitely one of theleaders in the sales engagement, space and sales technology space in thatcompany is none other than our sponsor outreagh. So let me tell you a littlebit about Matt Millin. Before we dive into the interview. The Mat iscurrently the FCP of revenue at outreach. He's been there just over twoyears, but he has a distinguished and amazing career in sales, at bigcompanies and small companies and even at Sales Training Compani. So I thinkhe started way BACD, we won't say his age, but way back in the day, graduatedfrom University of New Hampshire. He spent time carrying a bag and thenworked as a sales leader and self professional tech data at Gateway atTony Robins. The fale training business, tea mobile, where he was from twothousand Andeven to thousand and sixteen and now he's at outreach andhe's overseeing one of the fastest growing businesses in the US. WelcomeMat to the show. Thank you, Sam and great to be here.We're happy to have you so like we tend to do. First, let's frame mattmillin.First of all, it's not the Mattmillan that was a professional football playeror an NFL analyst, but a different TAT millon. But let's frame what we'relistening to so your sepof revenue, it ot reach,tell us roughly what's the tize of out rich, but we are between twenty fiveand fifty million, but I do want to go back to one quick thing: Sam Jer,Ruffrence, Matt, millin, the Football Poe. I didn't, there's no video. I cansay that I'm bigger and meaner than that bathvillain wow! Well, I that'sthat's a that'St. it's not! That would be difficult to do so. Congratulations,KAYIT's, butthere's! NO VIDEO! There yougohnkit's impossible that te test,th, t hypothesis, so ourages, twenty five to fifty million. How big is yoursellteam tell us a little bit about sort of the revenue footprint thatyou're managing and that's great. We have a very traditional sass go tomarket model. We've got a large SCR team. We've got three teams spreadacross the country, so we can follow...

...the sun. We have our account executivesthat are supported by presales engineers wher needed, and then we gointo professional services. All of our customers are professionally onboardedand then head over to success and you're responsible for the entirety ofthat sort of customer journey, except for the strs at this point. Okay, andhow big is the team, it's north of a hundred POSSB bacing walkin through alittle bit of your background. You know. Obviously I mentioned a bunch ofdifferent companies but you're running now, a team of over a hundred folks.You know you're scaling quickly, I'm sure, a couple years ago out, reach wasprobably the single digitarr and now you're on your way past fifty. How didyou get to outreach and walk us through some of the experiences that led tothis moment in time? Yeah? Let's do that. You know. I knowyou reference my age. I got out of College N, eight seven and aninteresting thing happened to me very early. My first job out of college wasnot in sales. I was actually like an assistant branch manager on the fasttrack of a bank. My roommate was in sales and here's what happens SAM? Weboth had a base salary of eighteen housanddollars a year back then wowyeah wow. But what happen was like I made eighteensandars a year in myroommate, who is in sales, made a base salary of eighteen thousand dollars,but every month he got paid again something called commission, and so hewas like getting paid twice every month and then our apartment started fillingup with all the tds and DCRs and things that he was winning along the way,including trips we would take, and I quickly ran the sales because I made adecision to get paid twice. Just like my roommate. I think it was a smartdecision very smart. How did you get into sale? So you went from being abranch manager or assistant branch manager on the fast track. What wasyour first job first job selling I was out in Tampa Florida. I was a midmarket, really a full psycho sales rap for Zena Theta systems, sellingtechnology products in the lates. Two things happened. At the same time. Iactually started both my first sales job and I started my first addictionI'll. Tell you about the addiction first, I started competively drivingrace cars and when I first started, I was racingin something called autocross or you racein parking lots and the courses aremade up of cones, and within ten years I had been to Daytona Internationalspeedway four times and within five years after that, I'm rasing deserttrucks and the deserts of California and Mexico. It learned three things onthe track that really stuck with me, the first, because it was crazy, likeit was crazy on a racetrack. Can you learn that? There's more bad luck thangood luck on a racetrack, so you got to figure ound like how do you takecontrol about the chaos, and I realize, like the first thing I controlled washow good of a driver I was which? How much was I goine to invest in my skillsand I recorded every race from inside the race car and studied my tapesreligiously to to make better decisions on the track. The second thing Icontrolled was how much money I invested in my equipment, how muchmoney my sponsor invested in the car, which inevitably allowed me to drivefaster, stop quicker, turn shopper and keep me safe and then third, how much Iprepared for each race and on average, you prepared eight hours for every onehour on the track. If you learn these things and then then I get into sales,and I quickly realized saying that there is more bad luck than good luckin selling. There's no second and third place trophy everyone's fighting. Forthat one deal you can producate issues economic issues, there's turbulenceinside your prospect. Just all kinds of crazy stuff can happen. So I'm likewhat are the things that I can control hin sales and I realize very quickly.There were three things that I controlled as I worked, my wayto salesnumber one the words that come out of my mouth all day. The conversationsthat I have the stories that I tell and what I found was the better myconversations, the better my success, number two, how I spent my time.Actions in the activities that I took all day long had a big impact, theharder I work, the luckier I got, and then three was my attitude toward thebusiness like how I approached the day, everything from my attitude toward mycommitment of Mitting, my number to my attitude of the products that Irepresented, and how fiercely I competed and that's really stuck withme- throw my career. I came up with t e methodology that I call Sam story,activity and mindset. We can talk about that later if we choose, but reallyabout really thinking, Ou Ow, the stories I tell the activities I takeand my attitude toward the business. That is a big impact on your ability towin to. Well, we don't have to talk about it later. Let's talk about it nowto walk us through like what makes a great story. Let's look at each Sam asyour proprietary methodology. LITEXPEN TAT get the appropriate amount ofairplay, starting with stories. What...

...makes a great story and talk throughthe methodology of choosing the right words to tell that story, it's a greatquestion and I'm going to take in a slightly different direction, becauseyou can spend a whole week on how to construct a story, but one of thethings that I've learned and especially for all the sales, development, rapsand leaders that listen to your podcast. I want to share one dimension of storythat I think makes a very big impact and I'll give you some examples, butit's all around the way that you have the message veryquickly t, let's just face it. We are professional interruptors as we'redialing out and making contact were usually interrupting. Somebody withgood cause and we've got to grab their attention, hold their attention andthen do something with that attention and that's not easy to do especiallythe way the brains working of the person that you're interrupting so hin.You first couple of seconds when you mak contact that person is in a fighterflight space, it's just how the human brain works and you have seconds to benon threatening and somewhat interesting to have them hold on, andwhat I found is most in sales development today how that ability,they've worked their craft and they've got that Hook and they can get somebodyto start listening the next place. The brain goes. Sam Is intorelevancy likethe brains asking like. So what and you've got to be relevant now,you've got just few more seconds after your being interesting to be relevantand again based on our ICP, based on our value proposition. We've got strongrelevancy in the market place. You know, people are doing a really good job, buthere's where the money's made it's in that third phase and it's aroundcredibility. In often times once you're relevant, now o' going to make adecision. Am I going to entrust you to tackle that problem? It's the rightproblem that you've called Ta solve, but why you and what I have found withmany sales efvelopment raps- is that the credibility is established at thelevel of the company. Here are other organizations that we've solvedproblems for for the credibility is established where the next meetingyou're going to have whether it's an account executive for somebody else inthe buyers journey. The best sales develope reps, also establishcredibility within themselves, and that to me is a major takeaway to make surethat the sales of elop rap formulates and Embodis a level of credibility. Letme just give you an example how this plays out. So, let's just say you go tothe doctor and you know you're in the examination roomand the doctor walks in and says you know what's wrong, you explain yoursymptoms to the doctor and one of the doctor literally took four steps backput on a hazmap suit and then went back to you to finish your examination likewhat are you thinking thinking? I'm Gohad tie pretty od. Youlike the first is like what's wrong with me, but then you're like I. Don'tfeel that bad, what's wrong with this doctor, like how much credibility doesthe doctor have in that moment, andles you're like I need a second opinion butlet'sse you walk into a doctor, and you tell the doctor what's wrong and thedoctor says Sam. You are the third guy to come in today. With that exact samesymptom, I'm going to give you a quick shot. The army will be as good as new.How do you feel, but you feel like wow, the doctor knowswhat's wrong when he eat deals with this all day long, he made an inheritpromise that I'll be good as new. You feel very certain that moment, and andthat's we want the STRs to do. We want the str to come across as wel. This iswhat we do our in great hands and really establish that without deferringthat credibility beyond themself, do you have do you have good examples fromfrom your days at Outrach, where you can sort of demonstrate seem withcredibility from the SDR from your counexacts yeah? I think that's a AtuinI'll give you one one do and one don't do of that, and then we move of the onedo is to be an expert. STR is whether you're making fifty seventy, whatevernumber of dials a day. If you think about it, the SDR speak to morepotential businesses than anyone else in the organization and they're hearingand seeing a lot and one of the ways to establish credibility is to Sheare whatthey encounter when they make connections off those fiftde nd.Seventy, whatever number touches a day in many cases, those scrs already havethat knowledge and don't give themselves enough credit for theknowledge that they already possess. Here's what not to do don't ever say. Ijust need five minutes of your time. Dowat ever minimize, like the value ofthe commitment necessary to do the right work. So there's a doing Adon't do veryhelpful, very helpful. So the SAM framework, Hi story activitymindset, tell us about activity and...

...sort of structuring your day in theright way to maximize productivity. That's great you kN! W activity, I liketo say, is avolving like what we think about when I started selling in thelates. There was no such thing as email that didn't come out till the early s.There was no internet. That was the mids at. We had no mobile technologywhatsoever yeah. So my idea growing up on activity was, I have a Phonin, afact machine and I was super busy, but I really couldn't work after hourseither, because we had no way to be tether and if we think about theevolution of activity, as we've had different mediums next weat email, thenwe had the Internet for both getting information and then sociallyinteracting, and we continue to evolve the different touchpoints that we havefrom an activity perspective and the call ot is like don't get don't gethooked on email. You really fery up how you create touchpoints and spend yourtime with your prospects, meet them where they're at an really understandthe personage you're going after and where they respond to different touches,and I think recognizing the change in activity and just to give yousome some specificity here. It used to be about being busy like like make yourcalls, do your followups and that was adequate. Like you got measured on yourbusyness, it was quantified you. The major calls here didn't then, withplatforms in the sales engagement space like outbreach, where we amplifyd andwe're able to two to three extra activity. Everything got amplified yourgood habits and your bad habits got implified, so things it. You did well,we did more of and things that you weren't doing well, you did more of butt at that was two three years ago. These are tablestakes today and what'shappening to Sam. Is that habbits and bias are being replaced by insights anddata, and what I mean by that is now now. We know now that there's so muchactivity going on the data science of machine worrying can give us what to dowhen to do it, who to do it with, and this is available today. This is notfuture talk as it's not flying cars. This is like. Today we have theinsights available to be much more precise and, quite frankly, much moreeffective with the actions in the activities that we're taking each anall day as a manager. Does that impact? Exactlyto your point, you know maybe five or ten years ago I mean I even face thisToonma. When I'm managing my teams are we focused on number of calls Fer Dayor when you're looking at evaluating inputs that ultimately will lead topipeline generation and closed business? Are you still looking at number ofcalls forday number of emails per day or have you moved to a differentframework for evaluating the productivity, the input productivity ofthe people that are on your team and Question Sam, but I think at the end ofthe day, you still have to do a minimum amount of work to get the job done.WHEL. You agree, yeah of course, of course right so likeso, do you measure the inputs? Yes, because there's a minimum amount thatneeds to happen for anything to result and what's important, is u youestablish the right level of minimums around the right activities, whateveryour business is, that's completely subjective to you, but yes, we measureinputs what's equally important and as we're watching revenue, efficiency wereplace being busy. It's you know what are t e. What are the conversion metric?What are the efficiency metrics associated with the actions andactivities that you're taking? So, for instance, if you start to take a lookat what is resulting from the action layer and then revenueefficiency is a game ifh inchest, so you can start making these microadjustments to what they're doing when they're doing who they're doing it withand start experimenting in Germs, go constantly experimenting and tweakingto maximize the output of the inputs. Any surprising insights or conclusionsto the point of you know tweaking and experimenting things that you guys havedone over the last couple of months or years that have improved thatefficiency or productivity yeah. We do something called mythbuster Mondaysit's on linked in for anybody that wants to follow, or we myth bust, likewe'll, take some common focal or and running through our machine learning.Engin. You know like it is that true- and you know, personalization Yo knowthere's a lot of debate on personalization and there is a point at which you canoverpersonalize Wer you get Theentrin Wer, you get theminishing return, so some personalization is absolutely necessary,but you can overpersonalize to a point where you're for all the time thatyou've gone beyond what actually is needed. That's wasted effort that couldbe spent inother areas, that's one s ample and when you guys are designing,you know your strategies for outreach. Are you still using, you know, is atbasically just phone an email. Are you...

...incorporating social selling? What areall the elements that go into? You know generating a meeting with an ICEP withhe prospect yeah we we do. We do a lot with social. Youknow we have a full linked in integration. You kN linked into a verybig piece of how we connect and get information. We've got some othertouchpoints will do Maol, Wol, syn physical male set physical gifts. Wehave a you know. We have a very targeted approach depending on whowe're going after, and that includes working with our marketing team andproviding certain air cover at a personal level. Interesting, so we'vegot story, Wev got activity, talk to us about the right mindset, and you knowit. Imagine it's probably going to be well, I don't know, is it going to beabout positivity or is it is it bigger than that? It's funny L. So, first of all, this isalways a popular topic. I like to start off by saying that you know a lot ofpeople think that mindset is just a bunch of BS and it is, but it's not theBS that you probably think I'm talking about its belief systems. Mindset comes down to your underlyingbeliefs and I'll. Just ask you this question rhetorically. What's thedifference between an STR and as a bad call goes into a funk for three hours,burse yestr, that has a bad call, picks themselves right up, and the next callis the best call. The day, like the last call didn't even matter justBrazilian does all get go. Verse Esdr that has a bad call, thinks about itfor a minute and calls that prospect back because they know they underservethem in the moment, they're going to ask for a second chance to make a greatimpression like like. What's the difference in those three scenarios andits mindset- and I like to see that mindset comes down your attitude like,let's just not make it something out, theeath is fery. Sure attitude like itis your attitude towards and I'll give you a couple of examples like you couldhave an attitude like my company's got. My back my companyhas got the back ofmy customers. I feel fully trained and ready to go. Do what I need to do. I'ma hundred percent accountable for the numbers that I have signed up. For Imean these are beliefs that translate into an attitude in terms of how youapproach the day, I mean that that is it's just attitudal and when you have an attitude like that, you were goingto go behave in a certain way. Those behaviors are your action layer, youractionly like what you do and how you do it, and that action layer will spitoff a result which is your performance and then that performance is going toreinforce your attitude that works in both the up and the down. So I've got astrong attitude. It's on a foundation of these beliefs. Like I'm ready, Iowne it. I got it. I reeber sait, a great product hitsolves a real problem and it's my moral imperative that I take this to markettoday. When I have that belief, structure,withat attitude, you can only imagine how I hit my activity layer with zealand energy, and my story is told passion and conviction, and that willyield a result that reflects what I put into it and reenforce that I'm doingthe right thing in the right way and- and I put even more energy in thatcycle and that becomes a success cycle. It feeds itself. It's why the winnerswent. It's why the Ridge get richer cycles like that, just feed on itself,and it doesn't just work in sales. This can work in your relationships. Thiscan work in your spirituality. This can work in your finances. Whatever youwant to focus on, it can also work. The other way likeyou can go in with a shit attitude Sam and that shit attitude you gnt take aas good man, I'm all right. No, I was saying my attitude is good,but you could go in with a shit attitude and like how is that goinimpact like how seriously and how much energy you're putting into your actionlater that day and like you know how much passionate conviction isresonating in your story not much and then you're getting a bad result thatday and that just pisses you off more and your Hattito goes even lower rightin so like it works both ways: You're, either you're, either feeding this upor it's pulling you down and that's a decision we make like it's a decisionlike your mindset, is a decision that you make like in life about anythingthat you're going to go. Do like it's your choice. Nobody else is, and youcontrol it and to me that's mindset and unstoppable mindset- is theuncompetitive advantage, like it's just unfair, like to have this and gocompete against it. So first you said you control it, whichmeans you believe, it's sort of a...

...learnable skill that you know you candevelop the right mindset. So then the question is: How do you do that? Whatexercises practical exercises can you take to build and solidify andconstruct the this mindset that approaches life with zeal andenthusiasm and optimism and passion Ye SOS great question? I can't answer thatother than just say: I will hire it and nurture it. I am not in the business of takingsomebody with a disposition of negativity, no energy, no passion. Iwill not go there and resurrect that if it's even possible, I hire it and Inurture it and I celebrate it. Is there a way to test for Irt in the interviewprocess? There's a couple ways to test for it. It's funny you D, Ask so I'll,give you three fun techniques that it can run with in some way. The first isearly in the interview process. I do something called stand and deliver andwhat I find is sase people, professional interviewers. They knowexactly what to say and, as part part of telling a great storythe fact you know many sales people tell better stories than performance,I'm sure we've all found. So one of the things I look for veryearly on is stand and deliver Alass the candid to just literally stand up andgive me the two minute pitch of whereever. They are, or just came fromjust give me the binch and what I hear Sam as well. What I normally say isthis, and I will politely say: Don't Tell me what you normally say. I needyou to do what you normally do like. Do It extand up and do it and they caneither do it or they can't- and this is a big big piece of you- know theiraccountability toward owning the message they do it or they don't do it,because how you do anything is how you do everything. So if you can stand upand give me a good pitch good roleplace on objection, handling of where you are,then you just have to learn that where I am but you'll be able to do it, You'ejust demonstrated you can do it, but some struggle iht. So it's a goodweedout process right off the top. Why would you ever hire someone for salesthat can' sell for? Can Pitch? So that's the first one, the second onereally goes more into what I call ego strength, not ego, which is brasiliencyand really test for their ability to fight like there's a great quote. Themost powerful force in the human spirit is the need to stay consistent with theidentity you create for yourself sat one more time. It's a moutfle for themost powerful force of the human spirit is the need to stay consistent with theidentity you create for yourself, and what this really means is, if you're awinner, not a poser, not an emulator, but if you're really winner, thenyouwill do anything in everything to win. That's who you are tow, youidentify and if you're truly aware- and you win here too so you want to test-is like well, they fight to protect their identity and there's a way we cando this. So Sam, we'll just do a really quick role. PLAC is that cool yeah,it's great allright! Here we go SAM. If you were advertising for theposition that you're applying for and you coand only use one attribute in thead, what do you think the most important attribute would be I'll? Thank commitment. Awesome Grad,say it to. Is the problem Sav if you and I bothagree- that commitment is the number one determined for success in thisposition. Why aren't I seeing commitment from you right now because I'm weak Matt, I'm Wa what you want them to do, because they came up with the attributeand and nine times out of ten they're actually going to pull out an attributethat they self identify with somegodatally. So you know you youvalue commitment. I know that from this that's wor yew value. So let's just sayI challenge ou w the commitment at tell you. Don't have it if you're truly awinner- and you truly believe that you are committed in commitment- is thedeterminate. Then you will riskly interview to defend your identitidentity around commitment, because defending your identity is moreimportant than the job at hand you'll defend it. I've literally hadcandidates come over the table at me and say what the F don't you see likelike, literally and inm like I just want to say, you're hired in thatmoment that I want to finish my interview too. We want to see themfight like we want to see them defend themselves, because if they won't fightin a controlled environment on an Interviewrom, they are not going tofight on the jungle streets of competition. That makes a lot of sense. The third wod is a lockdown, and it'svetvery simple. If you think about the...

...way you interview for Your Team Sam,I'm sure that you're very clear with any candidate whent, the minimums arearound the job. The minimum activity levels for midial production levels.How we conduct ourselve culturally is a citizen of the of the company right you're, very clearin terms of what it takes in terms of minimum requirements, Ye ter eprofessional standards I like to call them and so right before I'm going to make itoffer sai'll say this it' say Sam. I have one step away from offering you ajob Fancai. You wonder that one step is, I do yeah, he do seam ave. I beencrystal clear trough the entire interview process of what theprofessional minimums are associated with the job that you're interviewing,for I believe you have and every point have you not assured me completely thatyou would either meet or exceed all the minimums I have, and I shall that'sawesome- here's a need to do. Yeah we go home and from your personal email. Ineed you to send me an email stating and reaffirming your promise to meet orexceed the minimums all I need it just to meet or exceed the minimumsprofessional standards. I'm happy to do that. I will make you a promise toexceed all minimums, not just make them perfect upon receipt of that email. Youcan expect a job offer. Ot doesn't stop ther SAM here's. What happens on yourfirst day of work, a copy of that emails hanging in two locations? Ithangs where you sit and it's hangng in front of where I sait and everyday youand I both look at the promise the promise to mee o exceed. So you knowtwo months in or three months in when you stop making your calls, so you stipbelow the production. You know it's a very easy conversationlook. Look atyour email! Keep Your promise, because I promise you, Sam that everything thatI committed on behalf of myself. As a leader in the organization I willdeliver, I will not fall down on you. You have got to do the same. I will dothe same. I'm committed to making this work mat. Please hire me D Y, that'swort! I THERE WE GO! That was amazing. I wanted to change tactics a littlebittor change tack. Yeah you've been doing this clearly for a long time.You've got these methodologies developed in these ideologies developed.First of all, how did you develop this perspective in point of view over thelast? You know, however long it's been twenty or so years, and also what causeyou to make the leag from a big company like horizon to out Rach and one of thebig DIFFERENC has been between big companies and small companies, givingyour most recent experience relative to your background. Efirst of all, youknow everything that I espouse today, you know comes from a mistake I madeearlier I my career. You know you do you get. You know, good experience. Good judgement comes from experience.Experience comes from bad judgment, we all learn so and who knows there? Counbe five years from now. I could have better thinking based on mistakes, I'mmaking today and will continue make mistakes, but I look out the end. Indflowed between larger and small companies. You had a very large teamover a thousand people of team mobile. You know I came to outreach because Ireached prospected me and the prospecting experienced from outreachon thoir platform. That was amazing and they told me they solved some problemsthat I had and I got introduced to the company. But I'll tell you the biggestdifference for me between these large organizations and o startup. Is it's a couple I'll share? The first isbig companies are delivering proven value and you have a trusted brand toget proven value small startups. These are people that have found like eithera better way to solve a problem or a way to solve a problem that theybelieve is in being addressed. I mean it's awesome, like you get really smartpeople that have figured out in the challenges. How do I get Kno? How does someone likehow do I start getting traction tof, my businesss there's? No, fifty billiondollar sells velocity behind it. They've got to tattraction great idea,no traction an you know. How do you do that and I think the biggest biggestchallenge for startup isn't the idea and when the first idea is not good,they pive it for a different idea, so they they have great ideas. It's reallygetting market traction and that product market fit and getting to apoint where wo can ultimately scale into a viable business here. Does yourdaytoday shift from T MOBILE TO TO OUT REACHS? Are you doing different things?Are you emphasizing different qualities or skills yeah? You know it's a great question,and so the answer is yes, and no, you know at one level you know at the stagean outreach is that you know running a fairly sophisticated sales process anda fairly sophisticated team.

We've got good sense of the buyersjourney and what we need to do, you know really were the biggest differenceis Sam is like when I want to try something new. I want to incubate an idea today orthink about a different way, a more revenue efficient way of doingsomething and, let's say you'v Got Fortyaes. Now,if I kill off a couple ays to go figure this out, toddy I's not such a big deal,but when I joined the company they had six s and like what at? How do you do that,like? How do you take like onre? Thirty of your revenue risk to go, trysomething like it', Ai. You know as a team mobilie eight hundred raps on thestreet, like you know, and I had two teams and they were really good attrying yourself. They read a really tight process and like they were, Iwent when incubated ideas like if they went well greated it didn't go well,there wasn't a lot of risk because they were good teams great leader, so youhad like a way to try things and then either roll it quickly across theorganization or not, and I think there's more risk in these smallerorganizations as you're trying to figure it out, get it right or improveupon. That makes a tremendous amount of sense.One specific question: I have you on that from what's your point of view, one of the big challenges at this stageof growth, particularly when you joined outreaches you've, got maybe a group ofsix. Maybe it's a group of eight and you personally have other teams and soyou're reaching the point where the Spanic control is being stretched andyou're going to need a sales manager. And then the question is who becomesthe sales manager to hire from the outside and risk contaminating theculture and bringing in somebody that really is atproven in that environment?Or do you from promote from within and if you promote from within? Are youtaking one of your top raps and, if you're taking one of your top raps? Howdo you think about losing that productivity? Just there's a bunch ofquestions in there, but it's all related to that theme of trying tofigure out who are the leaders in the organization going to be and how to yourationalize the loss of productivity, an an individual basis out to the team. So you asked an amazing question and it really stemson like philosophy, there's no right answer here so, forinstance, anytime you're thinking about promotingsomeone or hiring someone. It comes down to risk right. So if I bringsomeone from the outside, you Knai that you know there's a risk of the culture,there's a risk of ramping up and understanding what we do. There's Ariskany of the bad habits they're going to bring that's a risk tere, not all thatthey claim to be promoting from withit there's the risk of losing theproduction associate with the top rap there's the risk that they never letpeople before there. So there's all these risks like on both sides and youthink about your career San at every point. In time, someone took a chanceon you, your first job, you never worke before they gave it to you over someonethat did work before the first time you got to lead people. They gave it to youagainst verse, other people that have let people before right so our wholecareer, your career, my career, most of the people listening like we owe it toall the people that took a chance of US nol. We did the right in terms of whatwe were able to do, but they took a chance and e. Here we are, and I wouldjust for you for the listeners- it's very contextual, there's certainpositions. You have got to bring an experience, someone who has done thisbefore and there are other positions where there's less risk, where you cangive someone some upward mobility and a chance to lead for the first time and it's very contextual to what'sgoing on at that point in time, iunderstand the last were sort of coming to coming tothe end of our time together. But I wanted to ask you a few more questions.If I could one of them is, you know you wrote down when we were sort ofpreperting for the call. You talked about probably a mindset. Difference ofabundance versus scarcity, walk us through. You know what you mean by thatand how that applies, to sort of how you approach your day today. Yeah that's great, I think, there's aninherent in many sales people, what I call scarcity mentality. You knowpeople horridly, hord accounts, there's like like thit's, just not like this istendency to believe. There's not enough, and I don't know if you see that orhave seen that in your career Sam, but I but I've seen this. I've also beenthere myself rearly my career, but I had I had a personal epimphony one daywhere somebody wants asked me to look around the room that I was in and I didand and and this individual said to me, whatdoes everything in the room? Havein common- and I said I don't know- and he said tome everything that you see, including the ear that you're breathing, whichhas gone through an hbak system, was sold by somebody to someone everythinglike everything that we see touch is were so was transacted and it reallychanged my mindset in terms of the...

...abundance of what's available to melike it like. I get it now and an I'll give you another example. When Istarted my Crir Urly, you know selling computers O Zenith. There were three ofus that all started about the same time: selling this technology, one of mybuddies sold phone systems back in the refhone systems and one of my buddiessold copiers. You know at the end, weest got to happthe hour at the end ofthe week and we' d, like commiserate around how tough our market was, andyou know I' Look at the copier guy and how easy he had it or how easy thephone guy had it and they look at me and how and the truth is like themarket, the market equalizes for everybody like there's enough sellersand buyers, the market, the market just egualizes it out. If there's too manyof something it gets equalized down like the weegill fall off so like youeither believe that or you don't. But I want to share that. There's enough wifheverything there's enough lead, there's enough business, there's enough foreverybody that cares about their craft to have an amazing career and don't letscarcity come in. BEA scarcity is a limiting belief and it's a limitingbelief. That's going to hurt your attitude, which is going to hurt yourbehavior, which will impact your performance. But again that's a choicelike how you choose to look at opportunity. I choose abundance. Icompletely agree with you when it really comes out as when you thinkabout sharing sharing resources, sharing ideas. My personal approach andattitude is I'm much more open than I think. Sometimes other people are tnotsbecause I believe in abundance. If you take my idea, that's fine I'll findanother idea there plenty of work to go around. There's ut and I work reallyhard. So if you can outwork me and you're going to steal my idea, that'sgreat. It's gonna be rare, though heyw onemore quick example. You now think about how many times you've got a rep workinga deal and they're struggling with it and there's someone else on the floor.That can either help know somebody and the REP holds on way too long didn'task for help either didn't share the deal work to deal in Tanem and splitthe commission. They were so scared of giving half away that they got ahundred percent of nothing. It's exactly and that's exactly the reasonyou know when you're starting a company and you give equity, you can have ahundred percent of the company and you can control everything or you can bringother people into the fold and build something much much bigger and have asmaller share of a much much bigger pie, sort of the way approach life talk tous about some of your influences. You know, you've worked with I'm sure somegreat leaders who are some of the people that we should know about inyour opinion, either great sales leaders, great mentors, just peoplethat have made an imprent upon you over the course of the last few years. You know it's funny. I just had thisconversation earlier today. I worked for some amazing leaders. I'm been veryblaste ball stwore for a few bad ones, which reminded me of what I didn't wantto be when I grew up I'll. Tell You my current leader nowmany Medina is an inspiration and an example. For me, every day, in terms oflike me, lifting up my game like I'm inspired by Mannie's passion and hiscommitment in in his resolve, you know Tony Robins d working directly for Tonywas a gift, but I'm going to go back, IO, onethousand nine hundred and ninety thre N, one thousand nine hundred and ninetysix, when I workd for a lady named Terry Hagry and Terry, was the mostformative leader in mentor in my life, and she led me at a time when I was alittle too cocky a little too full of myself and she really helped Chisel offmy corners and you know, bring me little humility, little self, realization and actualactualization, and I'm forever indebted to her for the Investment that she madein my career early on, because it's lasted with me: Harry Haggardy, that'sher name, yeah, she's retired. Now, and if anyone listening, you know just giveher some love, unlinked in and just say, Mat wonl, Tok, really highly of yourawesomeness. We will and that's that's again. That's the idea of abundance,at's, putting love and good vives out there and I'm sure it ilwer down toyour benefit. There's folks, listening out there that probably want to youknow they first of all, they're inspired by the passion that you bringboth to the role into life itself. But if there's content that you know theyshould be consuming books, they should be reading to get better at their craftto invest in themselves. The same way you invested in your race, car, H,theyread, that's awesome! There's a there's! A great book out there calledconversations that win. The complex sale has nothing to do with complex sellingby Peterson last name Peterson and it's an amazing, read I'll tell you of allthe books. I've read. This is the one like. You know how you fold the pagecorner over of the one that you want to go like every page in the book that thePagis folded over in the books yellow...

...from highlighter. It's just so rich,it's so rich and I would just say if you want to read a great book thatcould really change the way that you communicate and convey value it's awinter. That's fantastic! You! I read it ilove its. I called the author and Gonno Talk to you like it s. It wasawesome. You know that's, especially as the host of a podcast you'd be amazedand how not difficult it is to get in touch with authors, particularly booksthat aren't really widely read. So you know just people like when you consumetheir content and you reach out of them and say hey that made a big ompressionamong me, you have some great like a sort of a great motto: Wshare it withthe audience if he was sort of like guiding principle or life Modor, howyou think about approaching life Bo you referring to the e three principles. Ithink it's like speak deliberately yeah yeah, so my moto is like how do you own yourexistence and Thats Ho? I came up with three things: speak deliberately, walkwith purpose and live by choice, not chance. I love that, and I think it's just allabout, like you know, owning owning you, like people, are listening to the words thatcome out of your mouth, make the matter. People Watch the way you carry yourself,don't take. What comes at you take what you want like go out there. I love it Matt. This has been a real pleasure. Iassume given the growth of outrage but CORRECTL, if I'm wrong, that you guysare hiring and thees also a bunch of people that are probably listening thatare inspired by the words that you share. So if people want to get intouch with you is that okay- and what's your preferred medium, do you preferlike din? Do you prefer email? How can they get in touch with you if they wantto send you ther resume or talk to you about their selfs career or or just getsome advice yeah for all the above. The best way, please reach out to me onlinked in I'm veryactive I'll respond to all messages, Calle connectionrequests in any feedback you have for me, I'm still a student of the game andI would love to hear from you and in Tack Yeah, I'm on your. So for folksout there it's linoncom in flash, ND MILLIN AND IT looks likeyou- have a picture in a racing outfit on your limpin. So you want to teckthat out. I tily entertaining Matt thanks so much for joining us. It'sbeen a pleasure having you on the show when I look forward to meeting onperson soon great to be with you saam thank Oot Eighteem, it's Sam's corner. I am yourhost Sam Jacobs. You are listening to the wrapup portion of our podcast. Thatwas a great conversation with Matt Millen. If you caught the Wole playswhere I failed miserably, that's fantastic and I'm always happy to makean ass of myself for the benefit of everybody out there. That's listening,hopefully including my mother and my wife. Now what can we take away frommatts conversation and that's insights? First of all, we got some reallyactionable interview techniques, Matt talked about a mechanism called standand deliver where he sort of forces. Somebody in the moment to stand up andgive the pitch for wherever they're working. He talked about having themsort of own up to their personal beliefs, and he says, what's the mostimportant thing that you think for this job quality and then he asks them toexplain why they have a demonstrated that quality and sort of hegauges theirresponse. But perhaps my favorite was the one where he says: Hey write down.If you want this job write down and tell me that you understand our minimumexpectations and you promise to meet them and then, when you do that I'llgive you the job and then when they show up on the first day, he has thosepromises printed out on their desk and his desk. I imagine his desk becomesquite qluttered with all of these hundreds of promises, but their deskhopefully remains icsentidy. But the point is that he asks for recommitmentinto the process and then reminds people of those expectations throughoutthe course of their time with the company. If you've ever read this greatbook first break all the rules is this amazing management leadership book andthey have twelve sort of guidelines for how to manage the first one is everyemploy ask themselves. Do I know, what's expected of me and sort of thisaligns very nicely with Matt's idea, you have to make sure that peopleunderstand what at the minimum expectations, what are the expectationsof the rule and so in the interview process, if you can confirm thoseexpectations and then have them commit to those expectations, I think you'llbe a very good spot, so that was a really actionable practical insightthat Matt gave us. I guess the last thing that I would say is he talksabout the power of mindset and how you have to have perspective of abundance.Not Scarcity. Life is not a zerosome game, and certainly capitalismdefinitionally is not zero on the whole point of growth is that you can createsomething whence there was nothing and that point of view. In that perspectiveyou know, I think, there's lots of people that succeed with a scarcitymindset with, assuming that the only way to win is by taking from you, butit's a lot less fun and it makes you miserabwith him and being it's a lotbetter to sort of assume that there's...

...abundance for great things in the worldand that you can give of the world and not expect anything in return and ifyou keep working hard, you'll get good things back to you. So that's myphilosophical entreaty to all of the people thatare listening we want to.Lastly, thank our sponsors. That's air call. As we know they are the advancecall center software, complete business phone and contact center, one hundredpercent natively intergrated into Nycrm and outreach a customer engagementplatform that efficiently and effectively engages prospects to drivemore pipeline and close more deals. If you want to find me or check out theshow, notes, see upcoming guests or play more episodes from our incrediblea of sales, leaters visit sales hackercom head to the podcast cab. Ifyou want to get in touch with me, you can find me on Linkdon, twitter orelsewhere, find me on twitter, at Samf, Jacobs or Lincoln at Linthoncom InnLash, Sam f Jacobs, and please share any insights that you have pleasecontact me. We want the feedback and tell every single person that you knowand all the animals that you know about the sales tacker podcast. You want tospread the word until next time. I will talk to you then.

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