The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

30. The Secrets to Hyper-Scaling Sales past $50 Million ARR w/ Matt Millen

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This week on the Sales Hacker podcast, we chat with Matt Millen, SVP of Revenue at Outreach.io. Matt is a longtime sales executive having worked at large companies, like T-Mobile, and even sold at Tony Robbins. Matt walks us through his playbook for building high-performing sales teams and how to build the right kind of culture and sales mentality.

One, two, one, three, pot hey folks, it's Sam Jacobs and you're listening to the sales hackerpodcast, so welcome back to this week's episode. We have a fantastic episodefor you lined up. This week we've got Matt Millan, WHO's svp ofrevenue for outreached, out I oh, one of our sponsors. We havea great conversation with Matt. He talks all about he developed his own salesmethodology called Sam, which is storytelling, activity mindset, and he talks allabout the power of mindset and how that can influence all of the outcomes thatlater happened through the course of a sale cycle. He also walks us throughhis sales career and talks about the difference between working at a company like tmobile, where he managed over a thousand people, to going to outreach,where he inherited a team of six. They now have a team of wellover a hundred. So really great insights, particularly around sort of attitude, storytellingand the keys to telling a good story and engaging a buyer on thephone. And he's also just a great person and a former professional race cardriver, so that was also quite interesting. Now let me tell you about oursponsors this week. Our two favorite sponsors in the world. I've beenwith us for a couple months now. The first is are call. It'sa phone system designed for the modern sales team. So I hope at thispoint, if you are a loyal listener, you understand that it's really critical thatyou go out and purchase all of the things that our sponsors cell butare call is a really outstanding phone system that seems slee integrates into your crm, eliminating data entry for your reps and providing you with greater visibility into yourteam's performance through advanced reporting. So when it's time to scale, you canadd lines and minutes, not weeks, and you can use in call coachingto reduce ramp time for your new Reps. so the website is are called outio forward sales hacker. Please visit are called dot io forward slash saleshacker and mentioned the podcast in the lead form and you can see they're whyLuber done and Bradstreet pipe drive in thousands of others trust are call for themost critical sales conversations. Also, we want to thank outreach. I'll reachthat. Ioh The leading sales engagement platform. They triple the productivity of sales teamsand empower them to drive predictable and measurable revenue growth by prioritizing the rightactivities and scaling customer engagement with intelligent automation. Outreach makes customer facing teams more effectiveand they improve visibility into what really drives results. So hop over tooutreach doto forwards sales hacker. That website again is outreached io forwards salesacker tosee how thousands of customers, including glass door, Pandora and Zillo, relyon outreach to deliver higher revenue for Sales Rep I also want to thank ourwonderful fans. A couple people that have just reached out really enthusiastically. SEAWANQuinlinn, if you're out there, and thank you, Ellen Hammond, force, it will rufo and Ari Zucker. Those are some of the folks thathave reached out to me on Linkedin. Thank you for listening. We reallyappreciate it and without further ado, let us listen to this week's episode withMatt Millen from outreach. Hey everybody, it's Sam Jacobs, your friendly neighborhoodsales podcast host, and I'm super excited. This week we've got the head ofrevenue for one of the fastest growing companies, perhaps in the world,definitely in the United States, and definitely one of the leaders in the salesengagement space and sales technology space in that company is none other than our sponsoroutreach. So let me tell you a little bit about Matt Millan before wedive into the interview. So Matt is currently the STP of revenue at outreach. He's been there just over two years but he has a distinguished and amazingcareer in sales at big companies and small companies and even at sales training company. So I think he started way bad. We won't say his age, butway back in the day, graduated from University of New Hampshire. Hespent time carrying a bag and then worked as a sales leader and sales professionalat tech data, at gateway, at Tony Robbins the sales training business teammobile, where he was from two thousand eleven to two thousand and sixteen,and now he's at outreach and he's overseeing one of the fastest growing businesses inthe US. Welcome Matt to the show. Thank you, Sam and great tobe here. We're happy to have you. So, like we tendto do, first let's frame Matt Millan. First of all, it's not theMatt Millan that was a professional football player or an NFL analyst, buta different that Milan. But let's frame what we're listening to. So yourstp of revenue at outreach. Tell us roughly what's the size of outreach?Well, we are between twenty five and fifty million. But I do wantto go back to one quick thing. Sam. Sure Reference Matt Mill inthe football? I did. There's no video. I can say that I'mbigger and meaner than that bat villain. Wow, well, I that's that'sa that's it's not. That would be difficult to do. So congratulations.Hey, it's not, but there's no video there. Think it's impossible totest the hypothesis. So our reaches twenty five to fifty million. How bigis your sales team? Tell us a little bit about sort of the revenuefootprint that you're managing. And that's great. We have a very traditional sass goto market model. We've got a large SCR team. We've got threeteams spread across the countries. We can...

...follow the Sun. We have ouraccount executives that are supported by pre sales engineers when needed, and then wego into a professional services all of our customers are professionally on boarded and thenhead over to success and you're responsible for the entirety of that sort of customerjourney, except for the STRs at this point. Okay, and how bigis the team? It's north of a hundred pross facing. Walk us througha little bit of your background, you know. Obviously I mentioned a bunchof different companies, but you're running now a team of over a hundred folks. You know you're scaling quickly. I'm sure a couple years ago outreach wasprobably in the single digit rr and now you're on your way past fifty.How did you get to outreach and walk us through some of the experiences thatled to this moment in time? Yeah, let's do that. You know,I know you re Frinch my age. I got out of college hundred eightyseven, and an interesting thing happened to me very early. My firstjob out of college was not in sales. I was actually like an assistant branchmanager on the fast track of a bank. My roommate was in sales. And here's what happens. Sam. We both had a base salary ofeighteen thousand dollars a year back then. Wow, yeah, wow, butwalkin was like I made eighteen thousand dollars a year. In my roommate,who is in sales, made a base salary of eighteen thousand dollars, butevery month he got paid again something called commission, and so he was likegetting paid twice every month. And then our apartment started filling up with allthe TV's and BCRS and things that he was winning along the way, includingtrips we would take. And I quickly ran the sales because I made adecision to get paid twice, just like my roommate. I think it wasa smart decision, very smart. How did you get into sale? Soyou went from being a branch manager or assistant branch manager on the fast track. What was your first job? First job selling? I was out inTampa Florida. I was a mid market, really a full cycle sales rep forZeno data systems, selling technology products. In the late s two things happenedat the same time. I actually started both my first sales job andI started my first addiction. I'll tell you about the addiction. First,I started competitively driving race cars, and when I first started I was racingin something called autocross, or you race in parking lots and the courses aremade up of cones. And within ten years I had been to Daytona Internationalspeedway four times and within five years after that, I'm racing desert trucks andthe deserts of California and Mexico and learned three things on the track that reallystuck with me. The first because it was crazy, like it was crazyon a racetrack and you learned that there's more bad luck than good luck ona racetrack. So you how to figure out, like how do you takecontrol of all the chaos? And I realize, like the first thing Icontrolled was how good of a driver I was, which how much was Igoing to invest in my skills? And I recorded every race from inside therace car and studied my tapes religiously to make better decisions on the track.The second thing I controlled was how much money I invested in my equipment,how much money my sponsor invested in the car, which inevitably allowed me todry faster stop, quicker turn sharper and keep me safe. And then third, how much I prepared for each race. And on average you prepared eight hoursfor every one hour on the track. If you learn these things. Andthen then I get in the sales and I quickly realize, saying thatthere is more bad luck than good luck in selling. There's no second andthird place trophy. Everyone's fighting for that one deal. You can have productaissues, economic issues, there's turbulence inside your prospect just all kinds of crazystuff can happen. So I'm like, what are the things that I cancontrol and sales, and I realize very quickly there were three things that Icontrolled as I work my way to sales. Number One, the words that comeout of my mouth all day, the conversations that I have, thestories that I tell, and what I found was the better my conversations,the better my success. Number two, how I spent my time, theactions in the activities that I took all day long had a big impact.The harder I work, the luckier I got. And then three was myattitude toward the business, like how I approached the day, everything from myattitude toward my commitment of getting my number to my attitude of the products thatI represented and how fiercely I competed, and that's really stuck with me throughoutmy career. I came up with the methodology that I call Sam story activityin mindset. We can talk about that later if we choose, but reallyabout really thinking the stories I tell, the activities I take and my attitudetoward the business. That has a big impact on your ability to win,though. Well, we don't have to talk about it later, let's talkabout it now. Walk us through like what makes a great story? Let'slook at each fam as your proprietary methodology. Let's make sure it gets the appropriateamount of airplay, starting with stories.

What makes a great story and talkthrough the methodology of choosing the right words to tell that story. It'sa great question and I'm going to take in a slightly different direction, becauseyou can spend a whole week on how to concern truck to story. Butone of the things that I've learned, and especially for all the sales developmentreps and leaders that listen to your podcast, I want to share one dimension ofstory that I think makes a very big impact, and I'll give yousome examples, but it's all around the way that you have the message veryquickly. Let's just face it, we are professional interrupters. As we're dialingout and making contact, we are usually interrupting somebody with good cause and we'vegot to grab their attention, hold their attention and then do something with thatattention. And that's not easy to do, especially the way the brains working ofthe person that you're interrupting. So when the first couple of seconds,when you make contact, that person is in a fight or flight space.It's just how the human brain works. And you have seconds to be nonthreatening and somewhat interesting to have them hold on. And what I have foundis most in sales development today how that ability. They've worked their craft andthey've got that Hook and they can get somebody to start listening. The nextplace the brain goes SAM is into relevancy. Like the brains asking like so what? And you've got to be relevant. Now you've got just few more secondsafter you're being interesting to be relevant. And again, based on our ICEPbased on our value proposition, we've got strong relevancy in the marketplace.People are doing a really good job, but here's where the money's made.It's in that third phase and it's around credibility and often times, once you'rerelevant now going to make a decision. Am I going to entrust you totackle that problem? It's the right problem that you've called the solved. Butwhy you and what I have found with many sales development wraps is that thecredibility is established at the level of the company. Here are other organizations thatwe've solved problems for. For the credibility is established with the next meeting you'regoing to have, whether it's an account executive for somebody else in the buyersjourney. The best sales development reps also established credibility within themselves and that tome, is a major takeaway to make sure that the sales development rep formulatesand embodies a level of credibility. Let me just give you an example howthis plays out. So lets you say you go to the doctor and youknow you're in the examination room in the doctor walks in and says you knowwhat's wrong. You explain your symptoms to the doctor and what if the doctorliterally took four steps back, put on a hazmat suit and then went backto you to finish your examination? Like what are you thinking? Thinking,I'm ahead tie pretty far. He'd like. The first is like what's wrong withme? But then you're like, I don't feel that bad. What'swrong with this doctor? Like how much credibility does a doctor having that momentand les you're like, I need a second opinion. But let's say youwalk into a doctor and you tell the doctor what's wrong and the doctor says, Sam, you are the third guy to come in today with that exactsame symptom. I'm going to give you a quick shot in the army.will be as good as new. How do you feel? But you feellike wow, the doctor knows what's wrong when you eat, deals with usall day long. He made an inherent promise that I'll be good as new. You feel very certain in that moment, and that's what we want the strsto do. We want the SDRs to come across as look, thisis what we do, you're in great hands and really establish that without deferringthat credibility beyond themselves. Do you have a do you have a good examplesfrom from your days at outrage where you can sort of demonstrate seamless credibility fromthe str from your kind of sext I think that's a great I'll give youone one do and one don't do. How's that? And then we'll moveon. But one do is is to be an expert strs, whether you'remaking fifty, seventy, whatever number of dials a day. If you thinkabout it, the STR speak to more potential businesses than anyone else in theorganization and we're hearing and seeing a lot. And one of the ways to establishcredibility is to share what they encounter when they make connections off those fifty, seventy, whatever number touches a day. And many cases those strs already havethat knowledge and don't give themselves enough creadit for the knowledge that they alreadypossess. Here's what not to do. Don't ever say I just need fiveminutes of your time. Don't ever minimize like the value or the commitment necessaryto do the right work. So there's a do and I don't do.It very helpful, very helpful. So the SAM framework of story activity mindsettell us about activity and sort of structuring...

...your day in the right way tomaximize productivity. Yeah, it's great. You know, activity, I liketo say, is evolving like what we think about. When I started sellingin the late S, there was no such thing as email. That didn'tcome out till the early s. There was no internet, that was themid S it. We had no mobile technology whatsoever. Yeah, so myidea growing up on activity was I had a phone and a facts machine andI was super busy, but I really couldn't work after hours either because wehad no way to be tethered. And if we think about the evolution ofactivity as we've had different mediums. Next we had email, then we hadthe Internet for both getting information and then socially interacting, and we continue toevolve the different touch points that we have from an activity perspective. And thecall out is I don't get, don't get hooked on email. Really veryup how you create touch points and spend your time with your prospects, meetthem where they're at and really understand the personage you're going after and where theyrespond to different touches. And I think recognize using the change in activity andjust to give you some some specificity here, it used to be about being busy, like like make your calls, do your follow ups and that wasadequate, like you got measured on your busyness. It was quantified. Youthe main you calls here didn't then with platforms in the sales engagement space likeoutreach, where we amplified and we're able to two to three extra activity,everything got to amplify. Your good habits and your bad habits got to amplify. So things did you did well, we did more of and things thatyou weren't doing well, you did more of. But that that was toothree years ago. These are table stakes today, and what's happening, Samis that habits and bias are being replaced by insights and data. And whatI mean by that is now, now, we know now that there's so muchactivity going on, the data, science and machine learning can give uswhat to do, when to do it, who to do it with, andthis is available today. This is not future talk, this is notflying cars, this is like today. We have the insights available to bemuch more precise and, quite frankly, much more effective with the actions,in the activities that we're taking each and all day. As a manager,does that impact exactly to your point? You know, maybe five or tenyears ago, I mean I even face the still on the one I'm managingmy teams. Are we focused on number of calls per day? Or whenyou're looking at evaluating inputs that ultimately will lead to pipeline generation and close business, are you still looking at number of calls per day, number of emailsper day, or have you moved to a different framework for evaluating the productivity, the input productivity, of the people that are on your team? It'sreal question, Sam. Look, I think at the end of the dayyou still have to do a minimum amount of work to get the job done. Would you agree? Yeah, of course, of course, right.So like. So do you measure the inputs? Yes, because there's aminimum amount that needs to happen for anything to result. And what's important asyou establish the right level of minimums around the right activities, whatever your businessis. That's completely subjective to you, but yes, we can. Asyour inputs. What's equally important and as we're watching revenue efficiency replace being busy, it's you know what are what are the conversion metrics? What what arethe efficiency metrics associated with the actions and activities that you're taking? So,for instance, if you start to take a look at what is resulting fromthe action layer and then revenue efficiency is a game of inches. So youcan start making these microadjustments to what they're doing, when they're doing who they'redoing it with, and start experimenting in terms of constantly experimenting and tweaking tomaximize the output of the inputs, any surprising insights or conclusions to the pointof, you know, tweaking and experimenting things that you guys have done overlast couple of months or years that have improved that efficiency or productivity. Yeah, we do something called mythbust for Mondays and it's on Linkedin for anybody thatwants to follow where we myth bust like will take some common folklore and runningthrough our machine learning engine and you know, like is that true? And youknow personalization. There's a lot of debate on personalization and there is apoint at which you can over personalize. Will you get them interesting? Whereyou get the minishing return? So some personalization is absolutely necessary, but youcan over personalize to a point where you're were all the time that you've gonebeyond what what actually is needed. That's wasted effort that could be spent inother areas. That's one example. And when you guys are designing, youknow your strategies for outreach? Are you still using you know, it's abasically just phone, an email? Are...

...you incorporating social selling? What areall the elements that go into, you know, generating a meeting with anICP with a prospect? We we do. We do a lot with social youknow, we have a full linked in integration, you know, linkedinto a very big piece of how we connect and get information. We've gotsome other touch points. will do manual, little sense physical mail, will setphysical gifts. We have a you know, we have a very targetedapproach depending on who we're going after, and that includes working with our marketingteam at providing certain air cover at a persona level. Interesting. So we'vegot story, we've got activity. Talk to us about the right mind fitand, you know, I'd imagine it's probably going to be well, Idon't know if it going to be about positivity or is it bigger than that? It's funny, it's so first of all, this is always a populartopic. I like to start off by saying that, you know, alot of people think that mindset is just a bunch of BS, and itis, but it's not the BS that you probably think I'm talking about itsbelief systems. Mindset comes down to your underlying beliefs, and I'll just askyou this question rhetorically. What's the difference between an STR and has a badcall goes into a funk for three hours? Verse, the SDR that has abad call takes themselves right up and the next call is the best callthe day, like the last call didn't even matter, just resilient as allget go. Verse, Yes, Dr and has a bad call, thinksabout it for a minute and calls that prospect back because they know they underserve them in the moment and they're going to ask for a second chance tomake a great impression. Like, what's the difference in those three scenarios?And it's mindset, and I like to say that mind that comes down yourattitude, like let's just not make it something the atheisphirs. Your attitude likeit is your attitude towards and I'll give you a couple of examples. Likeyou could have an attitude like my company's got my back, my company's gotthe back of my customers. I feel fully trained and ready to go dowhat I need to do. I'm a hundred percent accountable for the numbers thatI have signed up for me. These are beliefs that translate into an attitudein terms of how you approach the day. I mean that that is it's justattitudinal and when you have an attitude like that, you are going togo behave in a certain way. Those behaviors are your action layer. Youraction layer like what you do and how you do it, and that actionlayer will spin off a result, which is your performance, and then thatperformance is going to reinforce your attitude. Now works in both the up andthe down. So I've got a strong attitude. It's on a foundation ofthese beliefs. Like I'm ready, I own it, I got it.I represent a great product, it solves a real problem and it's my moralimperative that I take this to market. Today. When I have that beliefstructure, with that attitude, you can only imagine how I hit my activitylayer with zeal and energy and my story is told passion and conviction, andthat will yield a result that reflects what I put into it and reinforce thatI'm doing the right thing in the right way. And I I put evenmore energy in that cycle and that becomes a success cycle. It feeds itself. It's why the winners win, it's why the rich get richer. Cycleslike that just feed on itself. And it doesn't just work in sales ascan work in your relationships. This can work in your spirituality, this canwork in your finances, whatever you want to focus on. It can alsowork the other way, like you can go in with a shit attitude,Sam, and that shit attitude you're going to take a half last attitude.Good Man, I'm all right. Huh. Now, I was saying my attitudeis good, is. But you could go in with a shit attitudeand like how is that going to impact? Like how seriously and how much energyyou're putting into your action layer that day? And like you know howmuch passion and conviction is resonating in your story? Not much. And thenyou're getting a bad result that day and that just pisses you off more andyour attitude goes even lower. Right. So, like it works both ways. You're either you're either feeding this up or it's pulling you down, andthat's a decision we make, like it's a decision, like your mindset isa decision that you make, like in life about anything that you're going togo do, like it's your choice, nobody else's, and you control it. and to me that's mindset and unstoppable mindset is the uncompetitive advantage, likeit's just unfair are like to have this and go compete against it. Sofirst you said you control it, which means you believe it's sort of alearnable skill, that you know you can...

...develop the right mindset. So thenthe question is, how do you do that? What exercises, practically,exercises can you take to to build and solidify and construct the this mindset thatapproaches life with zeal and enthusiasm and optimism and passion? So great question.I can't answer that other than to say I will hire it and nurture it. I am not in the business of taking somebody with a disposition of negativity, no energy, no passion. I will not go there and resurrect that, if it's even possible. I hire it and I nurture it and Icelebrate it. Is there a way to test for it in the interview process? There's a couple ways to test for it. It's funny you ask.So I'll give you three fun techniques that you can run with in some way. The first is early in the interview process I do something called stand anddeliver, and what I find is sales people professional interviewers. They know exactlywhat to say and as part of telling a great story, the fact youknow, many sales people tell better stories than performance, I'm sure we've allfound. So one of the things I look for very early on is standand deliver. I ll ask the candidate to just literally stand up and giveme the two minut a pitch of wherever they are or just came from.Just give me the pitch. And what I hear Sam as well, whatI normally say is this, and I will politely say don't tell me whatyou normally say. I need you to do what you normally do, likedo it, like stand up and do it. And they can either doit or they can't. And this is a big, big piece of,you know, their accountability toward owning the message. They do it or theydon't do it, because how you do anything as how you do everything.So if you can stand up and give me a good pitch, good roleplay, some objection handling of where you are, then you'll just have tolearn that where I am, but you'll be able to do it. You'vejust demonstrated you can do it some struggle, right is so it's a good weedout process right off the top. Why would you ever hire someone forsales? I can sell the camp pitch. So that's the first one. Thesecond one really goes more into what I call ego strength, not ego, which is resiliency, and you really test for their ability to fight.Like there's a great quote the most powerful force in the human spirit is theneed to stay consistent with the identity you create for yourself. I'll say itone more time. It's a mouthful, but the most powerful force in thehuman spirit is the need to stay consistent with the identity you create for yourself. And what this really means is if you're a winner, not a opposer, not an emulator, but if you're really a winner, then you willdo anything and everything to win. That's who you are. Tell you identify, and if you're truly a winner, then you win here too. Soyou want to test is like. Well, they fight to protect their identity andthere's a way we can do this. So, Sam, we'll just doa really quick role plays. That cool. Yeah, it's great.All Right, here we go. Sam. If you were advertising for the positionthat you're applying for and you could only use one attribute in the ad, what do you think the most important attribute would be? I'll think commitment. Awesome, Grad say it to here's the problem, Sam, if youand I both agree that commitment is the number one determined for success in thisposition, why aren't I seeing commitment from you right now? Because I'm weak, Matt, I'm waiting when you want them to do because they came upwith the attribute and nine times out of ten they're actually going to pull outan attribute that they self identify with subcodessly. So you know you you value commitment. I know that from this. That's what you value. So let'sjust say I challenge you the commitment that I tell you don't have it.If you're truly a winner and you truly believe that you are committed in commitment, is that determine minute? Then you will risk the interview to defend youridentity, identity around commitment, because defending your identity is more important than thejob at hand. You'll defend it. I've literally had candidates come over thetable at me and say what the F don't you see like like literally,and I'm like, I just want to say you're hired in that moment,but I want to finish my interview too. We want to see them fight,like we want to see them defend themselves, because if they won't fightin a controlled environment of an interview room, they are not going to fight onthe jungle streets of competition. That makes a lot of sense. Thethird one is a lockdown, and it's very simple if you think about theway you interview for your team. Sam,...

I'm sure that you're very clear withany candidate what the minimums are around the job, the minimum activity levels, the minimum production levels, how we conduct ourselves culturally as a citizen ofthe of the company. Right. You're very clear in terms of what ittakes in terms of minimum requirements. Yes, sir, the professional standards I liketo call them. And so right before I'm going to make you anoffer, say I would say this. Let's say, Sam, I amone step away from offering you a job and if you want to know thatone step is I do. Yeah, you do, Sam. Of I'vebeen crystal clear through the entire interview process of what the professional minimums are associatedwith the job that you're interviewing for. I believe you have and every point. Have you not assured me completely that you would either meet or exceed allthe minimums? I have and I shall. That's awesome. Here's what I needto do. Yeah, we go home and from your personal email,I need you to send me an email stating and reaffirming your promise to meetor exceed the minimums. So all I need it just to meet or exceedthe minimums professional standards. I'm happy to do that. I'll make you apromise to exceed all minimums, not just meet them perfect. Upon receipt ofthat email, you can expect a job offer. It doesn't stop there,Sam. Here's what happens. On your first day of work. A copyof that emails hanging in two locations. It hangs where you sit and it'shanging in front of where I sit, and every day you and I bothlook at the promise, the promise to meet or exceed. So you know, two months in or three months in, when you stop making your calls oryou stip below the production, you know it's a very easy conversation.Look, look at your email, keep your promise, because I promise you, Sam that everything that I committed on behalf of myself as a leader inthe organization, I will deliver. I will not fall down on you.You have got to do the same. I will do the same. I'mcommitted to making this work. Matt please hire me. Let's work. Ifwe go, that was a thing I've wanted to change. Tactics, alittle bitter change tack. Yeah, you've been doing this, clearly for along time. You've got these methodologies developed in these ideologies developed. First ofall, how did you develop this perspective and point of view over the last, you know, however long it's been, twenty or so years, and alsowhat caused you to make the lead from a big company like Bison tooutreach, and one of the big difference has been between big companies and smallcompanies, giving your most recent experience relative to your background? First of all, you know everything that I espoused today, you know comes from a mistake Imade earlier my career. You know, you do you get, you knowgood experience. Good judgment cuts from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment. We all learned so, and who knows, there could be five yearsfrom now I could have better thinking based on mistakes I'm making today. WillContinue to make mistakes, but I look how the ending flowed between larger andsmall companies. You had a very large team, over a thousand people,a team mobile. You know, I came to outreach because outreach prospect ofme in the prospecting experience from outreach on their platform. That was amazing andthey told me they solve some problems that I had and I got introduced tothe company. But I'll tell you the biggest difference for me between these largeorganizations and a startup is there's a couple I'll share. The first is bigcompanies are delivering proven value and you have a trusted brand to get proven value. Small startups these are people that have found like either a better way tosolve a problem or a way to solve a problem that they believe is andbeing addressed. I mean it's awesome, like you got really smart people thathave figured out in the challenge is, how do I get known? Howdoes someone like how do I start getting traction of my business? Is there'sno fifty billion dollar sells velocity behind it. They've got to get traction. Greatidea, no traction and you how do you do that? And Ithink the biggest biggest challenge for a startup isn't the idea and when the firstidea is not good, they pivot for a different idea so that they havegreat ideas. It's really getting market traction and product market fit and getting toa point where it can ultimately scale into a viable business. Here, doesyour day to day shift from team Obile to to outreach? Are you doingdifferent things? Are you emphasizing different qualities or skills? Yeah, yeah,you know. It's a great question and so the answers yes and no.You know, at one level, at the stage that outreach is that,you know running them a fairly sophisticated sales process and a fairly sophisticated team.We've got good sense of the buyers journey...

...and what we need to do.Really where the biggest difference is? Sam is like when I want to trysomething new, I want to incubate an idea today or think about a differentway, a more revenue efficient way of doing something, and let's say you'vegot forty eight he's no, if I pill off a couple of days togo figure this out, today it's not such a big deal, but whenI join the company they had six a's and like what? What? Howdo you do that? Like how do you take like one third of yourrevenue risk to go try something like it's, you know, as a team mobilead eight hundred reps on the street. Like you and I had two teamsthat were really good at trying stuff. They read a really tight process andlike they were. I went when incubated ideas like if they went well, great, I didn't go well, there wasn't a lot of risk becausethey were good teams, right leader. So you have like a way totry things and then either roll a quickly across the organization or not, andI think there's more risk in these smaller organizations as you're trying to figure itout, get it right or improve upon that makes a tremendous amount of sense. One specific question I have you on that. From what's your point ofview? One of the big challenges at this stage of growth, particularly whenyou joined outreach, is you've got maybe a group of six, maybe it'sa group of Eight, and you personally have other teams, and so you'rereaching the point where the span of control is being stretched and you're going toneed a sales manager. And then the question is, who becomes the salesmanager? You hire from the outside and risk contaminating the culture and bringing insomebody that really hasn't proven in that int Ronment, or do you from promotefrom within? And if you promote from within, are you taking one ofyour top reps? And if you're taking one of your top Reps, howdo you think about losing that productivity? Just there's a bunch of questions inthere, but it's it's all related to that theme of trying to figure outwho are the leaders in the organization going to be and how do you rationalizethe loss of productivity and an individual basis out to the team? So youasked an amazing question and it really stems on like philosophy. There's no rightanswer here. So, for instance, anytime you're thinking about promoting someone orhiring someone, it comes down to risk. Right. So if I bring someonefrom the outside, you nailed it. You know there's a risk of theculture, there's a risk a ramping up and understanding what we do.There's a risk any of the bad habits they're going to bring. There's arisk or not all that they claim to be promoting from within. There's therisk of losing the production associated with the top rep there's the risk that they'venever let people before they're so there's all these risks, like on both sides. And you think about your career, Sam at every point in time someonetook a chance on you. Your first job, you never work before.They gave it to you over someone that did work before. The first timeyou got to lead people, they gave it to you against verse other peoplethat have led people before. Right. So our whole career, your career, my career, most of people listening like we owe it to all thepeople that took a chance on us. Now we did them right in termsof what we were able to do, but they took a chance and herewe are, and I would just for you, for the listeners, it'svery contextual. There's certain positions you have got to bring in experience, someonewho has done this before, and there are other positions where there's less risk, where you can give someone some upward mobility and a chance to lead forthe first time. And and it's very contextual to what's going on at thatpoint in time. I understand the last word sort of coming to coming tothe end of our time together, but I wanted to ask you a fewmore questions if I could. One of them is, you know, youwrote down when we were sort of preparating for the call. You talked aboutprobably a mindset difference of abundance versus scarcity. Walk us through you know what youmean by that and how that applies to sort of how you approach yourday to day yeah, that's great. I think there's an inherent in manysalespeople what I call scarcity mentality. You know, people hoardly's hoard accounts.There's like it's just not like this this tendency to believe there's not enough.And I don't know if you see that or have seen that your career,Sam, but I but I've seen this. I've also been there myself early mycareer. But I had I had a personal epiphany one day where somebodywants asked me to look around the room that I was in and I didand in this individual said to me, what does everything in the room havein common? And I said I don't know, and he said to meeverything that you see, including the ear that you're breathing which has gone throughan HVAC system was sold by somebody to someone. Everything, like everything thatwe see touch is was sold, was transacted, and it really changed mymindset in terms of the abundance of what's...

...available to me. Like it likeI get it now. And I'll give you another example. When I startedmy career early, you know, selling computers or zenith, there were threeof us at all started about the same time selling this technology. One ofmy buddies sold phone systems, back in the phone systems, and one ofmy buddies sold copiers. You know, at the end we start to happyhour at the end of the week if we'd like commiserate around how tough ourmarket was. And you know, I'd look at the Copyer guy and howeasy he had it or how easy the phone guy had it, and theylook at me and how and the truth is, like the market, themarket equalizes for everybody, like there's enough sellers and buyers the market. Themarket just equalizes it out. If there's too many of something, it getsequalized down like the we will fall off. So, like you either believe thatare you don't, but I want to share that there's enough of everything. There's enough leads, there's enough business, there's enough for everybody that cares aboutthe their craft to have an amazing career. And don't let scarcity comein, because scarcity is a limiting belief and it's a limiting belief that's goingto hurt your attitude, which is going to hurt your behavior, which willimpact your performance. But again, that's a choice, like how you chooseto look at opportunity. I choose abundance. I completely agree with you when itreally comes out as when you think about sharing, sharing resources, sharingideas. My personal approach and attitude is I'm much more open than I thinksometimes other people are. That's because I believe in abundance. If you takemy idea, that's final. Find another idea. There's plenty of work togo around. There's and I work really hard. So if you can outwork me and you're going to steal my idea, that's great. It's goingto be rare, though. Hey, one more quick example. You know, think about how many times you've got a rep working a deal and they'restruggling with it and there's someone else on the floor that can either help,know somebody, and the REP holds on way too long, didn't ask forhelp either, didn't share the deal, work the deal in Tianam and splitthe commission. They were so scared of giving half away that they got ahundred percent of nothing. It's exactly and that's exactly the reason. You know, when you're starting a company and you give equity, you can have ahundred percent of the company and you can control everything, or you can bringother people into the fold and build something much, much bigger and have asmaller share of a much much bigger pie. Sort of way I approach life.Talk to us about some of your influences. You know you've worked with, I'm sure, some great leaders. Who are some of the people thatwe should know about, in your opinion, either great sales leaders, great mentors, just people that have made an imprint upon you over the course ofthe last few years. You know, it's funny. I just had thisconversation earlier today and I've worked for some amazing leaders. I'm in very blasted. Also were for a few bad ones, which reminded me of what I didn'twant to be when I grew up. I'll tell you my current leader now, Manni Medina, is an inspiration, in an example for me every dayin terms of, like me lifting up my game, like I'm inspiredby Mannie's passion and his commitment in it. And is resolved. Tony Robbins.Working directly for Tony was a gift. But I'm going to go back tonineteen ninety three thousand nine hundred and ninety six, when I work fora lady named Terry Haggerty, and Terry was the most formative leader and mentorin my life and she led me at a time when I was a littletoo cocky and a little too full of myself and she really helped Chisel offmy corners and, you know, bring me little humility, a little selfrealization and actual actualization, and I'm forever indebted to her for the investment thatshe made in my career early on, because it's lasted with me. HarryHaggarty, that's her name. Yeah, she's retired now and if anyone listening, you know, just give her some love on linkedin and just say metwalls really highly of your awesomeness. We will. And that's that's again.That's the idea of abundance. It's putting love and good vibes out there andI'm sure it'll were down to your benefit. There's folks listening out there that probablywant to you know. They first of all they're inspired by the passionthat you bring both to the role into life itself. But if there's contentthat you know, they should be consuming books, they should be reading toget better at their craft, to invest in themselves the same way you investedin your race car. They read. That's awesome. There's are there's agreat book out there called conversations that win the complex sale, as nothing todo with complex selling, by Peterson, last name Peterson, and it's anamazing read. I'll tell you, of all the books I've read, thisis the one like you know how you fold the page corner over of theone that you want to go like every page in the book that the pageis folded over in the books yellow from highlighter. It's just so rich.It's so rich. I would just say...

...if you want to read a greatbook that could really change the way that you communicate and convey value, it'sa winner. That's fantastic. You have read it and loved it. SoI call the author and I going to talk to you like it's it wasawesome. You know that's especially as the host of a podcast. You'd beamazed at how not difficult it is to get in touch with authors particular booksthat aren't really widely read. So you know just people like when you consumetheir content and you reach out to them and say, Hey, that madea big impression among me. You have some great like a sort of agreat motto. We share it with the audience if you would, sort oflike guiding principle or life mode or how you think about approaching life. Youreferring to the other three principles. I think it's like speak deliberately. Yeah, yes, yeah, so my motto is like how do you own yourexistence? And as why I came up with three things. Speak deliberately,walk with purpose and live by choice, not chance. I love that andI think it's just all about, like, you know, owning, owning youlike people are listening to the words that come out of your mouth.Make the matter. People Watch the way you carry yourself. Don't take whatcomes at you, take what you want. Go out there. I love it, Matt, this has been a real pleasure. I assume, giventhe growth of outreach but correctly, if I'm wrong, that you guys arehiring and there's also a bunch of people that are that are probably listening,that are inspired by the words that you've shared. So if people want toget in touch with you, is that okay? And what's your preferred medium? Do you prefer Linkedin? Do you prefer email? How can they getin touch with you if they want to send you the resume or talk toyou about their sales career or or just get some advice? Yeah, forfor all of the above, the best way. Please reach out to meon Linkedin. I'm very active. I'll respond to all messages, all connectionrequests in any feedback you have for me. I'm still a student of the gameand I would love to hear from you and talk. Yeah, I'mon your so, for folks out there, it's linkedincom in, em millin,and it looks like you have a picture in a racing outfit on yourlinkedin. You want to check that out. I highly entertaining. Matt, thanksso much for joining us. It's been a pleasure having you on theshow when I look forward to meeting you in person soon. Great to bewith you. Sam thankfult a team. It's SAM's corner. I am yourhost, Sam Jacobs. You are listening to the wrap up portion of ourpodcast. That was a great conversation with Matt Millen. If you caught therole plays where I failed miserably, that's fantastic and I'm always happy to makean ass of myself for the benefit of everybody out there that's listening, hopefullyincluding my mother and my wife. Now, what can we take away from Matt'sconversation and mets insights? First of all, we got some really actionableinterview techniques. Matt talked about a mechanism called stand and deliver, where hesort of forces somebody in the moment to stand up and give the pitch forwherever they're working. He talked about having them sort of own up to theirpersonal beliefs and he says what's the most important thing that you think for thisjob? Quality, and then he asks them to explain why they haven't demonstratedthat quality and sort of he gages their response. But perhaps my favorite wasthe one where he says, hey, write down if you want this job. Write down and tell me that you understand our minimum expectations and you promiseto meet them and then when you do that, I'll give you the job. And then when they show up on the first day, he has thosepromises printed out on their desk and his desk. I imagine his desk becomesquite cluttered with all of these hundreds of promises, but their desk hopefully remainsnice and tidy. But the point is that he asks for recommitment into theprocess and then reminds people of those expectations throughout the course of their time withthe company. If you've ever read this great book first break all the rules, is this amazing management leadership book and they have twelve sort of guidelines forhow to manage. The first one is every employees themselves do I know what'sexpected of me and sort of this aligns very nicely with Matt's idea. Youhave to make sure that people understand what are the minimum expectations, what arethe expectations the rule? And so in the interview process, if you canconfirm those expectations and then have them commit to those expectations, I think you'llbe a very good spot. So that was a really actionable practical insight thatMatt gave us. I guess. The last thing that I would say ishe talks about the power of mindset and how you have to have perspective ofabundance, not scarcity. Life is not a zero sum game and certainly capitalismdefinitionally is not zero some the whole point of growth is that you can createsomething whence there was nothing, and that point of view, in that perspective, you know, I think there's lots of people that succeed with a scarcitymindset, with assuming that the only way to win is by taking from you, but it's a lot less fun and it makes you a miserable human being. It's a lot better to sort of...

...assume that there's abundance for great thingsin the world and that you can give of the world and not expect anythingin return and if you keep working hard you'll get good things back to you. So that's my philosophical entreaty to all of the people. They're listening.We want to lastly thank our sponsors. That's air call. As we know, they are the advanced call center software, complete business phone and contact center,one hundred percent natively integrated into any crm and outreach, a customer engagementplatform that efficiently and effectively engages prospects to drive more pipeline and close more deals. If you want to find me or check out the show notes, seeupcoming guests or play more episodes from our credible way of sales leaders, visitsales hackercom head to the PODCAST TAB. If you want to get in touchwith me, you can find me on Linkedin, twitter or elsewhere. Findme on twitter at Sam f Jacobs or Linkedin at linkedincom in Sam f Jacobs, and please share any insights that you have. Please contact me. Wewant the feedback and tell every single person that you know and all of theanimals that you know about the sales hacker podcast. We want to spread theword. Until next time, I'll talk to you then.

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