The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

30. The Secrets to Hyper-Scaling Sales past $50 Million ARR w/ Matt Millen

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This week on the Sales Hacker podcast, we chat with Matt Millen, SVP of Revenue at Outreach.io. Matt is a longtime sales executive having worked at large companies, like T-Mobile, and even sold at Tony Robbins. Matt walks us through his playbook for building high-performing sales teams and how to build the right kind of culture and sales mentality.

One, two, one, three, pot hey folks, it's Sam Jacobs and you're listening to the sales hacker podcast, so welcome back to this week's episode. We have a fantastic episode for you lined up. This week we've got Matt Millan, WHO's svp of revenue for outreached, out I oh, one of our sponsors. We have a great conversation with Matt. He talks all about he developed his own sales methodology called Sam, which is storytelling, activity mindset, and he talks all about the power of mindset and how that can influence all of the outcomes that later happened through the course of a sale cycle. He also walks us through his sales career and talks about the difference between working at a company like t mobile, where he managed over a thousand people, to going to outreach, where he inherited a team of six. They now have a team of well over a hundred. So really great insights, particularly around sort of attitude, storytelling and the keys to telling a good story and engaging a buyer on the phone. And he's also just a great person and a former professional race car driver, so that was also quite interesting. Now let me tell you about our sponsors this week. Our two favorite sponsors in the world. I've been with us for a couple months now. The first is are call. It's a phone system designed for the modern sales team. So I hope at this point, if you are a loyal listener, you understand that it's really critical that you go out and purchase all of the things that our sponsors cell but are call is a really outstanding phone system that seems slee integrates into your crm, eliminating data entry for your reps and providing you with greater visibility into your team's performance through advanced reporting. So when it's time to scale, you can add lines and minutes, not weeks, and you can use in call coaching to reduce ramp time for your new Reps. so the website is are called out io forward sales hacker. Please visit are called dot io forward slash sales hacker and mentioned the podcast in the lead form and you can see they're why Luber done and Bradstreet pipe drive in thousands of others trust are call for the most critical sales conversations. Also, we want to thank outreach. I'll reach that. Ioh The leading sales engagement platform. They triple the productivity of sales teams and empower them to drive predictable and measurable revenue growth by prioritizing the right activities and scaling customer engagement with intelligent automation. Outreach makes customer facing teams more effective and they improve visibility into what really drives results. So hop over to outreach doto forwards sales hacker. That website again is outreached io forwards salesacker to see how thousands of customers, including glass door, Pandora and Zillo, rely on outreach to deliver higher revenue for Sales Rep I also want to thank our wonderful fans. A couple people that have just reached out really enthusiastically. SEAWAN Quinlinn, if you're out there, and thank you, Ellen Hammond, force, it will rufo and Ari Zucker. Those are some of the folks that have reached out to me on Linkedin. Thank you for listening. We really appreciate it and without further ado, let us listen to this week's episode with Matt Millen from outreach. Hey everybody, it's Sam Jacobs, your friendly neighborhood sales podcast host, and I'm super excited. This week we've got the head of revenue for one of the fastest growing companies, perhaps in the world, definitely in the United States, and definitely one of the leaders in the sales engagement space and sales technology space in that company is none other than our sponsor outreach. So let me tell you a little bit about Matt Millan before we dive into the interview. So Matt is currently the STP of revenue at outreach. He's been there just over two years but he has a distinguished and amazing career in sales at big companies and small companies and even at sales training company. So I think he started way bad. We won't say his age, but way back in the day, graduated from University of New Hampshire. He spent time carrying a bag and then worked as a sales leader and sales professional at tech data, at gateway, at Tony Robbins the sales training business team mobile, where he was from two thousand eleven to two thousand and sixteen, and now he's at outreach and he's overseeing one of the fastest growing businesses in the US. Welcome Matt to the show. Thank you, Sam and great to be here. We're happy to have you. So, like we tend to do, first let's frame Matt Millan. First of all, it's not the Matt Millan that was a professional football player or an NFL analyst, but a different that Milan. But let's frame what we're listening to. So your stp of revenue at outreach. Tell us roughly what's the size of outreach? Well, we are between twenty five and fifty million. But I do want to go back to one quick thing. Sam. Sure Reference Matt Mill in the football? I did. There's no video. I can say that I'm bigger and meaner than that bat villain. Wow, well, I that's that's a that's it's not. That would be difficult to do. So congratulations. Hey, it's not, but there's no video there. Think it's impossible to test the hypothesis. So our reaches twenty five to fifty million. How big is your sales team? Tell us a little bit about sort of the revenue footprint that you're managing. And that's great. We have a very traditional sass go to market model. We've got a large SCR team. We've got three teams spread across the countries. We can...

...follow the Sun. We have our account executives that are supported by pre sales engineers when needed, and then we go into a professional services all of our customers are professionally on boarded and then head over to success and you're responsible for the entirety of that sort of customer journey, except for the STRs at this point. Okay, and how big is the team? It's north of a hundred pross facing. Walk us through a little bit of your background, you know. Obviously I mentioned a bunch of different companies, but you're running now a team of over a hundred folks. You know you're scaling quickly. I'm sure a couple years ago outreach was probably in the single digit rr and now you're on your way past fifty. How did you get to outreach and walk us through some of the experiences that led to this moment in time? Yeah, let's do that. You know, I know you re Frinch my age. I got out of college hundred eighty seven, and an interesting thing happened to me very early. My first job out of college was not in sales. I was actually like an assistant branch manager on the fast track of a bank. My roommate was in sales. And here's what happens. Sam. We both had a base salary of eighteen thousand dollars a year back then. Wow, yeah, wow, but walkin was like I made eighteen thousand dollars a year. In my roommate, who is in sales, made a base salary of eighteen thousand dollars, but every month he got paid again something called commission, and so he was like getting paid twice every month. And then our apartment started filling up with all the TV's and BCRS and things that he was winning along the way, including trips we would take. And I quickly ran the sales because I made a decision to get paid twice, just like my roommate. I think it was a smart decision, very smart. How did you get into sale? So you went from being a branch manager or assistant branch manager on the fast track. What was your first job? First job selling? I was out in Tampa Florida. I was a mid market, really a full cycle sales rep for Zeno data systems, selling technology products. In the late s two things happened at the same time. I actually started both my first sales job and I started my first addiction. I'll tell you about the addiction. First, I started competitively driving race cars, and when I first started I was racing in something called autocross, or you race in parking lots and the courses are made up of cones. And within ten years I had been to Daytona International speedway four times and within five years after that, I'm racing desert trucks and the deserts of California and Mexico and learned three things on the track that really stuck with me. The first because it was crazy, like it was crazy on a racetrack and you learned that there's more bad luck than good luck on a racetrack. So you how to figure out, like how do you take control of all the chaos? And I realize, like the first thing I controlled was how good of a driver I was, which how much was I going to invest in my skills? And I recorded every race from inside the race car and studied my tapes religiously to make better decisions on the track. The second thing I controlled was how much money I invested in my equipment, how much money my sponsor invested in the car, which inevitably allowed me to dry faster stop, quicker turn sharper and keep me safe. And then third, how much I prepared for each race. And on average you prepared eight hours for every one hour on the track. If you learn these things. And then then I get in the sales and I quickly realize, saying that there is more bad luck than good luck in selling. There's no second and third place trophy. Everyone's fighting for that one deal. You can have producta issues, economic issues, there's turbulence inside your prospect just all kinds of crazy stuff can happen. So I'm like, what are the things that I can control and sales, and I realize very quickly there were three things that I controlled as I work my way to sales. Number One, the words that come out of my mouth all day, the conversations that I have, the stories that I tell, and what I found was the better my conversations, the better my success. Number two, how I spent my time, the actions in the activities that I took all day long had a big impact. The harder I work, the luckier I got. And then three was my attitude toward the business, like how I approached the day, everything from my attitude toward my commitment of getting my number to my attitude of the products that I represented and how fiercely I competed, and that's really stuck with me throughout my career. I came up with the methodology that I call Sam story activity in mindset. We can talk about that later if we choose, but really about really thinking the stories I tell, the activities I take and my attitude toward the business. That has a big impact on your ability to win, though. Well, we don't have to talk about it later, let's talk about it now. Walk us through like what makes a great story? Let's look at each fam as your proprietary methodology. Let's make sure it gets the appropriate amount of airplay, starting with stories.

What makes a great story and talk through the methodology of choosing the right words to tell that story. It's a great question and I'm going to take in a slightly different direction, because you can spend a whole week on how to concern truck to story. But one of the things that I've learned, and especially for all the sales development reps and leaders that listen to your podcast, I want to share one dimension of story that I think makes a very big impact, and I'll give you some examples, but it's all around the way that you have the message very quickly. Let's just face it, we are professional interrupters. As we're dialing out and making contact, we are usually interrupting somebody with good cause and we've got to grab their attention, hold their attention and then do something with that attention. And that's not easy to do, especially the way the brains working of the person that you're interrupting. So when the first couple of seconds, when you make contact, that person is in a fight or flight space. It's just how the human brain works. And you have seconds to be non threatening and somewhat interesting to have them hold on. And what I have found is most in sales development today how that ability. They've worked their craft and they've got that Hook and they can get somebody to start listening. The next place the brain goes SAM is into relevancy. Like the brains asking like so what? And you've got to be relevant. Now you've got just few more seconds after you're being interesting to be relevant. And again, based on our ICEP based on our value proposition, we've got strong relevancy in the marketplace. People are doing a really good job, but here's where the money's made. It's in that third phase and it's around credibility and often times, once you're relevant now going to make a decision. Am I going to entrust you to tackle that problem? It's the right problem that you've called the solved. But why you and what I have found with many sales development wraps is that the credibility is established at the level of the company. Here are other organizations that we've solved problems for. For the credibility is established with the next meeting you're going to have, whether it's an account executive for somebody else in the buyers journey. The best sales development reps also established credibility within themselves and that to me, is a major takeaway to make sure that the sales development rep formulates and embodies a level of credibility. Let me just give you an example how this plays out. So lets you say you go to the doctor and you know you're in the examination room in the doctor walks in and says you know what's wrong. You explain your symptoms to the doctor and what if the doctor literally took four steps back, put on a hazmat suit and then went back to you to finish your examination? Like what are you thinking? Thinking, I'm ahead tie pretty far. He'd like. The first is like what's wrong with me? But then you're like, I don't feel that bad. What's wrong with this doctor? Like how much credibility does a doctor having that moment and les you're like, I need a second opinion. But let's say you walk into a doctor and you tell the doctor what's wrong and the doctor says, Sam, you are the third guy to come in today with that exact same symptom. I'm going to give you a quick shot in the army. will be as good as new. How do you feel? But you feel like wow, the doctor knows what's wrong when you eat, deals with us all day long. He made an inherent promise that I'll be good as new. You feel very certain in that moment, and that's what we want the strs to do. We want the SDRs to come across as look, this is what we do, you're in great hands and really establish that without deferring that credibility beyond themselves. Do you have a do you have a good examples from from your days at outrage where you can sort of demonstrate seamless credibility from the str from your kind of sext I think that's a great I'll give you one one do and one don't do. How's that? And then we'll move on. But one do is is to be an expert strs, whether you're making fifty, seventy, whatever number of dials a day. If you think about it, the STR speak to more potential businesses than anyone else in the organization and we're hearing and seeing a lot. And one of the ways to establish credibility is to share what they encounter when they make connections off those fifty, seventy, whatever number touches a day. And many cases those strs already have that knowledge and don't give themselves enough creadit for the knowledge that they already possess. Here's what not to do. Don't ever say I just need five minutes of your time. Don't ever minimize like the value or the commitment necessary to do the right work. So there's a do and I don't do. It very helpful, very helpful. So the SAM framework of story activity mindset tell us about activity and sort of structuring...

...your day in the right way to maximize productivity. Yeah, it's great. You know, activity, I like to say, is evolving like what we think about. When I started selling in the late S, there was no such thing as email. That didn't come out till the early s. There was no internet, that was the mid S it. We had no mobile technology whatsoever. Yeah, so my idea growing up on activity was I had a phone and a facts machine and I was super busy, but I really couldn't work after hours either because we had no way to be tethered. And if we think about the evolution of activity as we've had different mediums. Next we had email, then we had the Internet for both getting information and then socially interacting, and we continue to evolve the different touch points that we have from an activity perspective. And the call out is I don't get, don't get hooked on email. Really very up how you create touch points and spend your time with your prospects, meet them where they're at and really understand the personage you're going after and where they respond to different touches. And I think recognize using the change in activity and just to give you some some specificity here, it used to be about being busy, like like make your calls, do your follow ups and that was adequate, like you got measured on your busyness. It was quantified. You the main you calls here didn't then with platforms in the sales engagement space like outreach, where we amplified and we're able to two to three extra activity, everything got to amplify. Your good habits and your bad habits got to amplify. So things did you did well, we did more of and things that you weren't doing well, you did more of. But that that was too three years ago. These are table stakes today, and what's happening, Sam is that habits and bias are being replaced by insights and data. And what I mean by that is now, now, we know now that there's so much activity going on, the data, science and machine learning can give us what to do, when to do it, who to do it with, and this is available today. This is not future talk, this is not flying cars, this is like today. We have the insights available to be much more precise and, quite frankly, much more effective with the actions, in the activities that we're taking each and all day. As a manager, does that impact exactly to your point? You know, maybe five or ten years ago, I mean I even face the still on the one I'm managing my teams. Are we focused on number of calls per day? Or when you're looking at evaluating inputs that ultimately will lead to pipeline generation and close business, are you still looking at number of calls per day, number of emails per day, or have you moved to a different framework for evaluating the productivity, the input productivity, of the people that are on your team? It's real question, Sam. Look, I think at the end of the day you still have to do a minimum amount of work to get the job done. Would you agree? Yeah, of course, of course, right. So like. So do you measure the inputs? Yes, because there's a minimum amount that needs to happen for anything to result. And what's important as you establish the right level of minimums around the right activities, whatever your business is. That's completely subjective to you, but yes, we can. As your inputs. What's equally important and as we're watching revenue efficiency replace being busy, it's you know what are what are the conversion metrics? What what are the efficiency metrics associated with the actions and activities that you're taking? So, for instance, if you start to take a look at what is resulting from the action layer and then revenue efficiency is a game of inches. So you can start making these microadjustments to what they're doing, when they're doing who they're doing it with, and start experimenting in terms of constantly experimenting and tweaking to maximize the output of the inputs, any surprising insights or conclusions to the point of, you know, tweaking and experimenting things that you guys have done over last couple of months or years that have improved that efficiency or productivity. Yeah, we do something called mythbust for Mondays and it's on Linkedin for anybody that wants to follow where we myth bust like will take some common folklore and running through our machine learning engine and you know, like is that true? And you know personalization. There's a lot of debate on personalization and there is a point at which you can over personalize. Will you get them interesting? Where you get the minishing return? So some personalization is absolutely necessary, but you can over personalize to a point where you're were all the time that you've gone beyond what what actually is needed. That's wasted effort that could be spent in other areas. That's one example. And when you guys are designing, you know your strategies for outreach? Are you still using you know, it's a basically just phone, an email? Are...

...you incorporating social selling? What are all the elements that go into, you know, generating a meeting with an ICP with a prospect? We we do. We do a lot with social you know, we have a full linked in integration, you know, linked into a very big piece of how we connect and get information. We've got some other touch points. will do manual, little sense physical mail, will set physical gifts. We have a you know, we have a very targeted approach depending on who we're going after, and that includes working with our marketing team at providing certain air cover at a persona level. Interesting. So we've got story, we've got activity. Talk to us about the right mind fit and, you know, I'd imagine it's probably going to be well, I don't know if it going to be about positivity or is it bigger than that? It's funny, it's so first of all, this is always a popular topic. I like to start off by saying that, you know, a lot of people think that mindset is just a bunch of BS, and it is, but it's not the BS that you probably think I'm talking about its belief systems. Mindset comes down to your underlying beliefs, and I'll just ask you this question rhetorically. What's the difference between an STR and has a bad call goes into a funk for three hours? Verse, the SDR that has a bad call takes themselves right up and the next call is the best call the day, like the last call didn't even matter, just resilient as all get go. Verse, Yes, Dr and has a bad call, thinks about it for a minute and calls that prospect back because they know they under serve them in the moment and they're going to ask for a second chance to make a great impression. Like, what's the difference in those three scenarios? And it's mindset, and I like to say that mind that comes down your attitude, like let's just not make it something the atheisphirs. Your attitude like it is your attitude towards and I'll give you a couple of examples. Like you could have an attitude like my company's got my back, my company's got the back of my customers. I feel fully trained and ready to go do what I need to do. I'm a hundred percent accountable for the numbers that I have signed up for me. These are beliefs that translate into an attitude in terms of how you approach the day. I mean that that is it's just attitudinal and when you have an attitude like that, you are going to go behave in a certain way. Those behaviors are your action layer. Your action layer like what you do and how you do it, and that action layer will spin off a result, which is your performance, and then that performance is going to reinforce your attitude. Now works in both the up and the down. So I've got a strong attitude. It's on a foundation of these beliefs. Like I'm ready, I own it, I got it. I represent a great product, it solves a real problem and it's my moral imperative that I take this to market. Today. When I have that belief structure, with that attitude, you can only imagine how I hit my activity layer with zeal and energy and my story is told passion and conviction, and that will yield a result that reflects what I put into it and reinforce that I'm doing the right thing in the right way. And I I put even more energy in that cycle and that becomes a success cycle. It feeds itself. It's why the winners win, it's why the rich get richer. Cycles like that just feed on itself. And it doesn't just work in sales as can work in your relationships. This can work in your spirituality, this can work in your finances, whatever you want to focus on. It can also work the other way, like you can go in with a shit attitude, Sam, and that shit attitude you're going to take a half last attitude. Good Man, I'm all right. Huh. Now, I was saying my attitude is good, is. But you could go in with a shit attitude and like how is that going to impact? Like how seriously and how much energy you're putting into your action layer that day? And like you know how much passion and conviction is resonating in your story? Not much. And then you're getting a bad result that day and that just pisses you off more and your attitude goes even lower. Right. So, like it works both ways. You're either you're either feeding this up or it's pulling you down, and that's a decision we make, like it's a decision, like your mindset is a decision that you make, like in life about anything that you're going to go do, like it's your choice, nobody else's, and you control it. and to me that's mindset and unstoppable mindset is the uncompetitive advantage, like it's just unfair are like to have this and go compete against it. So first you said you control it, which means you believe it's sort of a learnable skill, that you know you can...

...develop the right mindset. So then the question is, how do you do that? What exercises, practically, exercises can you take to to build and solidify and construct the this mindset that approaches life with zeal and enthusiasm and optimism and passion? So great question. I can't answer that other than to say I will hire it and nurture it. I am not in the business of taking somebody with a disposition of negativity, no energy, no passion. I will not go there and resurrect that, if it's even possible. I hire it and I nurture it and I celebrate it. Is there a way to test for it in the interview process? There's a couple ways to test for it. It's funny you ask. So I'll give you three fun techniques that you can run with in some way. The first is early in the interview process I do something called stand and deliver, and what I find is sales people professional interviewers. They know exactly what to say and as part of telling a great story, the fact you know, many sales people tell better stories than performance, I'm sure we've all found. So one of the things I look for very early on is stand and deliver. I ll ask the candidate to just literally stand up and give me the two minut a pitch of wherever they are or just came from. Just give me the pitch. And what I hear Sam as well, what I normally say is this, and I will politely say don't tell me what you normally say. I need you to do what you normally do, like do it, like stand up and do it. And they can either do it or they can't. And this is a big, big piece of, you know, their accountability toward owning the message. They do it or they don't do it, because how you do anything as how you do everything. So if you can stand up and give me a good pitch, good role play, some objection handling of where you are, then you'll just have to learn that where I am, but you'll be able to do it. You've just demonstrated you can do it some struggle, right is so it's a good weed out process right off the top. Why would you ever hire someone for sales? I can sell the camp pitch. So that's the first one. The second one really goes more into what I call ego strength, not ego, which is resiliency, and you really test for their ability to fight. Like there's a great quote the most powerful force in the human spirit is the need to stay consistent with the identity you create for yourself. I'll say it one more time. It's a mouthful, but the most powerful force in the human spirit is the need to stay consistent with the identity you create for yourself. And what this really means is if you're a winner, not a opposer, not an emulator, but if you're really a winner, then you will do anything and everything to win. That's who you are. Tell you identify, and if you're truly a winner, then you win here too. So you want to test is like. Well, they fight to protect their identity and there's a way we can do this. So, Sam, we'll just do a really quick role plays. That cool. Yeah, it's great. All Right, here we go. Sam. If you were advertising for the position that you're applying for and you could only use one attribute in the ad, what do you think the most important attribute would be? I'll think commitment. Awesome, Grad say it to here's the problem, Sam, if you and I both agree that commitment is the number one determined for success in this position, why aren't I seeing commitment from you right now? Because I'm weak, Matt, I'm waiting when you want them to do because they came up with the attribute and nine times out of ten they're actually going to pull out an attribute that they self identify with subcodessly. So you know you you value commitment. I know that from this. That's what you value. So let's just say I challenge you the commitment that I tell you don't have it. If you're truly a winner and you truly believe that you are committed in commitment, is that determine minute? Then you will risk the interview to defend your identity, identity around commitment, because defending your identity is more important than the job at hand. You'll defend it. I've literally had candidates come over the table at me and say what the F don't you see like like literally, and I'm like, I just want to say you're hired in that moment, but I want to finish my interview too. We want to see them fight, like we want to see them defend themselves, because if they won't fight in a controlled environment of an interview room, they are not going to fight on the jungle streets of competition. That makes a lot of sense. The third one is a lockdown, and it's very simple if you think about the way you interview for your team. Sam,...

I'm sure that you're very clear with any candidate what the minimums are around the job, the minimum activity levels, the minimum production levels, how we conduct ourselves culturally as a citizen of the of the company. Right. You're very clear in terms of what it takes in terms of minimum requirements. Yes, sir, the professional standards I like to call them. And so right before I'm going to make you an offer, say I would say this. Let's say, Sam, I am one step away from offering you a job and if you want to know that one step is I do. Yeah, you do, Sam. Of I've been crystal clear through the entire interview process of what the professional minimums are associated with the job that you're interviewing for. I believe you have and every point. Have you not assured me completely that you would either meet or exceed all the minimums? I have and I shall. That's awesome. Here's what I need to do. Yeah, we go home and from your personal email, I need you to send me an email stating and reaffirming your promise to meet or exceed the minimums. So all I need it just to meet or exceed the minimums professional standards. I'm happy to do that. I'll make you a promise to exceed all minimums, not just meet them perfect. Upon receipt of that email, you can expect a job offer. It doesn't stop there, Sam. Here's what happens. On your first day of work. A copy of that emails hanging in two locations. It hangs where you sit and it's hanging in front of where I sit, and every day you and I both look at the promise, the promise to meet or exceed. So you know, two months in or three months in, when you stop making your calls or you stip below the production, you know it's a very easy conversation. Look, look at your email, keep your promise, because I promise you, Sam that everything that I committed on behalf of myself as a leader in the organization, I will deliver. I will not fall down on you. You have got to do the same. I will do the same. I'm committed to making this work. Matt please hire me. Let's work. If we go, that was a thing I've wanted to change. Tactics, a little bitter change tack. Yeah, you've been doing this, clearly for a long time. You've got these methodologies developed in these ideologies developed. First of all, how did you develop this perspective and point of view over the last, you know, however long it's been, twenty or so years, and also what caused you to make the lead from a big company like Bison to outreach, and one of the big difference has been between big companies and small companies, giving your most recent experience relative to your background? First of all, you know everything that I espoused today, you know comes from a mistake I made earlier my career. You know, you do you get, you know good experience. Good judgment cuts from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment. We all learned so, and who knows, there could be five years from now I could have better thinking based on mistakes I'm making today. Will Continue to make mistakes, but I look how the ending flowed between larger and small companies. You had a very large team, over a thousand people, a team mobile. You know, I came to outreach because outreach prospect of me in the prospecting experience from outreach on their platform. That was amazing and they told me they solve some problems that I had and I got introduced to the company. But I'll tell you the biggest difference for me between these large organizations and a startup is there's a couple I'll share. The first is big companies are delivering proven value and you have a trusted brand to get proven value. Small startups these are people that have found like either a better way to solve a problem or a way to solve a problem that they believe is and being addressed. I mean it's awesome, like you got really smart people that have figured out in the challenge is, how do I get known? How does someone like how do I start getting traction of my business? Is there's no fifty billion dollar sells velocity behind it. They've got to get traction. Great idea, no traction and you how do you do that? And I think the biggest biggest challenge for a startup isn't the idea and when the first idea is not good, they pivot for a different idea so that they have great ideas. It's really getting market traction and product market fit and getting to a point where it can ultimately scale into a viable business. Here, does your day to day shift from team Obile to to outreach? Are you doing different things? Are you emphasizing different qualities or skills? Yeah, yeah, you know. It's a great question and so the answers yes and no. You know, at one level, at the stage that outreach is that, you know running them a fairly sophisticated sales process and a fairly sophisticated team. We've got good sense of the buyers journey...

...and what we need to do. Really where the biggest difference is? Sam is like when I want to try something new, I want to incubate an idea today or think about a different way, a more revenue efficient way of doing something, and let's say you've got forty eight he's no, if I pill off a couple of days to go figure this out, today it's not such a big deal, but when I join the company they had six a's and like what? What? How do you do that? Like how do you take like one third of your revenue risk to go try something like it's, you know, as a team mobile ad eight hundred reps on the street. Like you and I had two teams that were really good at trying stuff. They read a really tight process and like they were. I went when incubated ideas like if they went well, great, I didn't go well, there wasn't a lot of risk because they were good teams, right leader. So you have like a way to try things and then either roll a quickly across the organization or not, and I think there's more risk in these smaller organizations as you're trying to figure it out, get it right or improve upon that makes a tremendous amount of sense. One specific question I have you on that. From what's your point of view? One of the big challenges at this stage of growth, particularly when you joined outreach, is you've got maybe a group of six, maybe it's a group of Eight, and you personally have other teams, and so you're reaching the point where the span of control is being stretched and you're going to need a sales manager. And then the question is, who becomes the sales manager? You hire from the outside and risk contaminating the culture and bringing in somebody that really hasn't proven in that int Ronment, or do you from promote from within? And if you promote from within, are you taking one of your top reps? And if you're taking one of your top Reps, how do you think about losing that productivity? Just there's a bunch of questions in there, but it's it's all related to that theme of trying to figure out who are the leaders in the organization going to be and how do you rationalize the loss of productivity and an individual basis out to the team? So you asked an amazing question and it really stems on like philosophy. There's no right answer here. So, for instance, anytime you're thinking about promoting someone or hiring someone, it comes down to risk. Right. So if I bring someone from the outside, you nailed it. You know there's a risk of the culture, there's a risk a ramping up and understanding what we do. There's a risk any of the bad habits they're going to bring. There's a risk or not all that they claim to be promoting from within. There's the risk of losing the production associated with the top rep there's the risk that they've never let people before they're so there's all these risks, like on both sides. And you think about your career, Sam at every point in time someone took a chance on you. Your first job, you never work before. They gave it to you over someone that did work before. The first time you got to lead people, they gave it to you against verse other people that have led people before. Right. So our whole career, your career, my career, most of people listening like we owe it to all the people that took a chance on us. Now we did them right in terms of what we were able to do, but they took a chance and here we are, and I would just for you, for the listeners, it's very contextual. There's certain positions you have got to bring in experience, someone who has done this before, and there are other positions where there's less risk, where you can give someone some upward mobility and a chance to lead for the first time. And and it's very contextual to what's going on at that point in time. I understand the last word sort of coming to coming to the end of our time together, but I wanted to ask you a few more questions if I could. One of them is, you know, you wrote down when we were sort of preparating for the call. You talked about probably a mindset difference of abundance versus scarcity. Walk us through you know what you mean by that and how that applies to sort of how you approach your day to day yeah, that's great. I think there's an inherent in many salespeople what I call scarcity mentality. You know, people hoardly's hoard accounts. There's like it's just not like this this tendency to believe there's not enough. And I don't know if you see that or have seen that your career, Sam, but I but I've seen this. I've also been there myself early my career. But I had I had a personal epiphany one day where somebody wants asked me to look around the room that I was in and I did and in this individual said to me, what does everything in the room have in common? And I said I don't know, and he said to me everything that you see, including the ear that you're breathing which has gone through an HVAC system was sold by somebody to someone. Everything, like everything that we see touch is was sold, was transacted, and it really changed my mindset in terms of the abundance of what's...

...available to me. Like it like I get it now. And I'll give you another example. When I started my career early, you know, selling computers or zenith, there were three of us at all started about the same time selling this technology. One of my buddies sold phone systems, back in the phone systems, and one of my buddies sold copiers. You know, at the end we start to happy hour at the end of the week if we'd like commiserate around how tough our market was. And you know, I'd look at the Copyer guy and how easy he had it or how easy the phone guy had it, and they look at me and how and the truth is, like the market, the market equalizes for everybody, like there's enough sellers and buyers the market. The market just equalizes it out. If there's too many of something, it gets equalized down like the we will fall off. So, like you either believe that are you don't, but I want to share that there's enough of everything. There's enough leads, there's enough business, there's enough for everybody that cares about the their craft to have an amazing career. And don't let scarcity come in, because scarcity is a limiting belief and it's a limiting belief that's going to hurt your attitude, which is going to hurt your behavior, which will impact your performance. But again, that's a choice, like how you choose to look at opportunity. I choose abundance. I completely agree with you when it really comes out as when you think about sharing, sharing resources, sharing ideas. My personal approach and attitude is I'm much more open than I think sometimes other people are. That's because I believe in abundance. If you take my idea, that's final. Find another idea. There's plenty of work to go around. There's and I work really hard. So if you can out work me and you're going to steal my idea, that's great. It's going to be rare, though. Hey, one more quick example. You know, think about how many times you've got a rep working a deal and they're struggling with it and there's someone else on the floor that can either help, know somebody, and the REP holds on way too long, didn't ask for help either, didn't share the deal, work the deal in Tianam and split the commission. They were so scared of giving half away that they got a hundred percent of nothing. It's exactly and that's exactly the reason. You know, when you're starting a company and you give equity, you can have a hundred percent of the company and you can control everything, or you can bring other people into the fold and build something much, much bigger and have a smaller share of a much much bigger pie. Sort of way I approach life. Talk to us about some of your influences. You know you've worked with, I'm sure, some great leaders. Who are some of the people that we should know about, in your opinion, either great sales leaders, great mentors, just people that have made an imprint upon you over the course of the last few years. You know, it's funny. I just had this conversation earlier today and I've worked for some amazing leaders. I'm in very blasted. Also were for a few bad ones, which reminded me of what I didn't want to be when I grew up. I'll tell you my current leader now, Manni Medina, is an inspiration, in an example for me every day in terms of, like me lifting up my game, like I'm inspired by Mannie's passion and his commitment in it. And is resolved. Tony Robbins. Working directly for Tony was a gift. But I'm going to go back to nineteen ninety three thousand nine hundred and ninety six, when I work for a lady named Terry Haggerty, and Terry was the most formative leader and mentor in my life and she led me at a time when I was a little too cocky and a little too full of myself and she really helped Chisel off my corners and, you know, bring me little humility, a little self realization and actual actualization, and I'm forever indebted to her for the investment that she made in my career early on, because it's lasted with me. Harry Haggarty, that's her name. Yeah, she's retired now and if anyone listening, you know, just give her some love on linkedin and just say met walls really highly of your awesomeness. We will. And that's that's again. That's the idea of abundance. It's putting love and good vibes out there and I'm sure it'll were down to your benefit. There's folks listening out there that probably want to you know. They first of all they're inspired by the passion that you bring both to the role into life itself. But if there's content that you know, they should be consuming books, they should be reading to get better at their craft, to invest in themselves the same way you invested in your race car. They read. That's awesome. There's are there's a great book out there called conversations that win the complex sale, as nothing to do with complex selling, by Peterson, last name Peterson, and it's an amazing read. I'll tell you, of all the books I've read, this is the one like you know how you fold the page corner over of the one that you want to go like every page in the book that the page is folded over in the books yellow from highlighter. It's just so rich. It's so rich. I would just say...

...if you want to read a great book that could really change the way that you communicate and convey value, it's a winner. That's fantastic. You have read it and loved it. So I call the author and I going to talk to you like it's it was awesome. You know that's especially as the host of a podcast. You'd be amazed at how not difficult it is to get in touch with authors particular books that aren't really widely read. So you know just people like when you consume their content and you reach out to them and say, Hey, that made a big impression among me. You have some great like a sort of a great motto. We share it with the audience if you would, sort of like guiding principle or life mode or how you think about approaching life. You referring to the other three principles. I think it's like speak deliberately. Yeah, yes, yeah, so my motto is like how do you own your existence? And as why I came up with three things. Speak deliberately, walk with purpose and live by choice, not chance. I love that and I think it's just all about, like, you know, owning, owning you like people are listening to the words that come out of your mouth. Make the matter. People Watch the way you carry yourself. Don't take what comes at you, take what you want. Go out there. I love it, Matt, this has been a real pleasure. I assume, given the growth of outreach but correctly, if I'm wrong, that you guys are hiring and there's also a bunch of people that are that are probably listening, that are inspired by the words that you've shared. So if people want to get in touch with you, is that okay? And what's your preferred medium? Do you prefer Linkedin? Do you prefer email? How can they get in touch with you if they want to send you the resume or talk to you about their sales career or or just get some advice? Yeah, for for all of the above, the best way. Please reach out to me on Linkedin. I'm very active. I'll respond to all messages, all connection requests in any feedback you have for me. I'm still a student of the game and I would love to hear from you and talk. Yeah, I'm on your so, for folks out there, it's linkedincom in, em millin, and it looks like you have a picture in a racing outfit on your linkedin. You want to check that out. I highly entertaining. Matt, thanks so much for joining us. It's been a pleasure having you on the show when I look forward to meeting you in person soon. Great to be with you. Sam thankfult a team. It's SAM's corner. I am your host, Sam Jacobs. You are listening to the wrap up portion of our podcast. That was a great conversation with Matt Millen. If you caught the role plays where I failed miserably, that's fantastic and I'm always happy to make an ass of myself for the benefit of everybody out there that's listening, hopefully including my mother and my wife. Now, what can we take away from Matt's conversation and mets insights? First of all, we got some really actionable interview techniques. Matt talked about a mechanism called stand and deliver, where he sort of forces somebody in the moment to stand up and give the pitch for wherever they're working. He talked about having them sort of own up to their personal beliefs and he says what's the most important thing that you think for this job? Quality, and then he asks them to explain why they haven't demonstrated that quality and sort of he gages their response. But perhaps my favorite was the one where he says, hey, write down if you want this job. Write down and tell me that you understand our minimum expectations and you promise to meet them and then when you do that, I'll give you the job. And then when they show up on the first day, he has those promises printed out on their desk and his desk. I imagine his desk becomes quite cluttered with all of these hundreds of promises, but their desk hopefully remains nice and tidy. But the point is that he asks for recommitment into the process and then reminds people of those expectations throughout the course of their time with the company. If you've ever read this great book first break all the rules, is this amazing management leadership book and they have twelve sort of guidelines for how to manage. The first one is every employees themselves do I know what's expected of me and sort of this aligns very nicely with Matt's idea. You have to make sure that people understand what are the minimum expectations, what are the expectations the rule? And so in the interview process, if you can confirm those expectations and then have them commit to those expectations, I think you'll be a very good spot. So that was a really actionable practical insight that Matt gave us. I guess. The last thing that I would say is he talks about the power of mindset and how you have to have perspective of abundance, not scarcity. Life is not a zero sum game and certainly capitalism definitionally is not zero some the whole point of growth is that you can create something whence there was nothing, and that point of view, in that perspective, you know, I think there's lots of people that succeed with a scarcity mindset, with assuming that the only way to win is by taking from you, but it's a lot less fun and it makes you a miserable human being. It's a lot better to sort of...

...assume that there's abundance for great things in the world and that you can give of the world and not expect anything in return and if you keep working hard you'll get good things back to you. So that's my philosophical entreaty to all of the people. They're listening. We want to lastly thank our sponsors. That's air call. As we know, they are the advanced call center software, complete business phone and contact center, one hundred percent natively integrated into any crm and outreach, a customer engagement platform that efficiently and effectively engages prospects to drive more pipeline and close more deals. If you want to find me or check out the show notes, see upcoming guests or play more episodes from our credible way of sales leaders, visit sales hackercom head to the PODCAST TAB. If you want to get in touch with me, you can find me on Linkedin, twitter or elsewhere. Find me on twitter at Sam f Jacobs or Linkedin at linkedincom in Sam f Jacobs, and please share any insights that you have. Please contact me. We want the feedback and tell every single person that you know and all of the animals that you know about the sales hacker podcast. We want to spread the word. Until next time, I'll talk to you then.

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