The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 4 years ago

32. Why Curiosity and Passion are Superpowers for Sales Leaders w/ Scott Schnaars

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This week on the Sales Hacker podcast, we speak to sales veteran, executive, and leader, Scott Schnaars. Scott has a long background in sales and has experienced the highs and lows of a long career selling different products. Scott has a great attitude on success and is one of the top leaders in SaaS, now overseeing global sales at Dynamic Signal.

One, two, one, three, three. Fo Hey everybody, welcome to the sales hacker podcast. It is your host, Sam Jacobs. I am the founder of the New York revenue collective. I guess we're calling at the revenue collective or at large now, because we've got London and we're opening Denver soon, so a bunch more cities to come. I'm also the chief revenue officer to place called behave ox and super excited for today's episode. Today's episode features Scotch Shnars. He's svp of worldwide sales at dynamic signal. He's a talented and experienced sales executive and we had a great conversation. Now, first I also want to thank our sponsors. are wonderful sponsors. So the first is are call. At this point I hope you know air calls a phone system designed for the modern sales team, not the antiquated sales team. The modern sales team. Are Call seamlessly integrates into your crm, eliminating data entry for your reps and giving you, the manager, greater visibility into your team's performance through advanced reporting. You can also add new lines in minutes and use incall coaching to reduce ramp time for your new reps. the website is air called out io forward sales hacker are called dot io forward slash sales hacker. Our second sponsor is outreach. That's outreached at IO, the leading sales engagement platform. Outreach triples the productivity of sales teams and empowers them to drive predictable and measurable Revenue Growth, which is the kind of growth that we all want. They do that by prioritizing the right activities, scale ailing customer engagement with intelligent automation, and they also make teams more effective while improving visibility into what really drives results. So go over to outreach DOO forward sales haacker to see how thousands of customers, including cloud era, glass door, Pandora and Zillo, rely on outreach to deliver higher revenue per sales Rep. finally, want to thank a couple of fans that have been talking about the podcast on Linkedin, and I'm sure I'm forgetting a few, but a couple people. First, J Cronin, who really got a lot of value out of the John Barrows episode. Thank you, Jay. Matt Poe reached out to me. Robert Doyle reached out to me and said Hey, great podcast, and then James Brett just posted about the todd capony episode. Just as of today, it's September fourteen. You're probably listening to this in late October, so you're traveling back in time with me right now. But James, thank you very much, and thanks to todd. Todd's got a new book if you haven't bought it, it's called the transparency sale. It came out October ninth. Make sure you get one and make sure you listen to the episode because he's Great. And without further ado, let us listen to my interview with Scotch schnars on the salesaccer podcast. Hey everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome back to the sales hacker podcast. Incredibly excited today to have as my guests Scott Schnars, who is STP of worldwide sales at dynamic signal. Scott's a long time veteran of the sales industry and of startup land and we're going to chat with him about his background, is experiences and all of the ways that he helps build great teams. So, Scott, welcome to the show. Sam, it's great to be here thank you very much. We're excited to have you. So for those let's let's just you know we do the the baseball car thing at the very top of the show so that we understand your background and a little bit of contacts. So your name is? Did I say your name correctly? By the way, you want absolutely, absolutely. It's like cars and guitars. They go cars, guitars and snars. Yep, and your STP worldwide sales at dynamic signal. Tell us about dynamic signal for those not in the know. Sure. So, dynamic signal is a company that is as Sass Organization, of course. We've been around about eight years and our real focus is on helping large organizations, think your fortune one thousand, helping them communicate to their front line workers, Workforce Communications. One of the things that I think people in technology tend to forget is that most employees don't get a laptop and a Hoodie and a phone and a nice notebook on their first day of work. Most employees are given maybe a fifteen minute here's what you have to do with your job, and they go off and they go do it, and these are the people who actually keep the economy humming. These are people that work in hospitality, they work in manufacturing, they work in healthcare, they work in janitorial services. All of these people are helpful employees to these large organizations and a lot of ways they make up the entire company. But historically organizations have had a hard time of communicating with those people and we make a platform that makes it really easy to communicate to those people on the supercomputer that everybody carries in their pocket. Wow, and and so how big is the company? From you know what's The revenue R range? You don't have to tell us specific so the company is about three hundred people and I've got about thirty five quote of carrying sellers who are doing an enterprise, quote of carrying quota. So I think that the listeners can sort of figure out what the Revenue Range is based on that. Okay, cool. And then a little bit of capital raised or you know, just where are you and your funding stages? As I'm it sounds like, probably pursuing, you know, some IPO event at some point or something like that. Yeah, from Your Lips to God's ears, as they say. I think that we've raised about a hundred million dollars as an organization and most recently,...

...earlier this year, raised about forty five million dollars from Cisco, Microsoft, Adam Street and Dutch Telecom. Wow, congratulations. Yeah, thank you. And so let's quickly get a bird's eye view of your organization. I think you mentioned some of the numbers, but walk us through sort of both the sales organization and then the functions. I'm imagining, you know, the traditional str ae but walk us through all of the different roles that you've got. Yeah, so we have, like I said, we've got about thirty five, quotea carrying sellers. I've got three groups who are in the US or made up of corporate team that is focusing on any organization between a thousand and five thousand employees. I've got an enterprise sales team that is focused on any organization between five thousand and about a hundred thousand employees and the strategic accounts team that's focus on anything with more than a hundred thousand employees. And then I've got a team based in London where they have about five quota carrier sellers. There we've got a team of nine or ten solution consultants. So these are the people are helping to design what the implementation might look like. They're helping to design and you kind of launch and roll out plan and really helping the sellers achieve their quotas. Various ausundry of sales operation, sales enablement people to help the the team to really hum and then our str team actually rolls up to our marketing team. We've got about fifty SDR, so we're trying to keep it a little bit higher than the traditional one to one ratio. And when you think about like the companies that we sell to, that sort of fortune two thousand or five thousand or global five thousand, whatever you want to call it, and maybe I'm marketing, strategy really works well in that capacity. So it makes it easier to have the SDR salesperson team really get laser focused on just a handful of accounts. That was actually going to be one of my questions. So, and partially this is selfishly because we're sort of figuring out some of the structure here, behaves. But the enterprise team, when they sell, is it hunters and farmers or it's like, you know, they get the counts. They once they close the account on the first sale, they maintain the relationships so that they can continue to expand the account or is it a designation between new logos and existing logos? So we're going through a similar kind of transition. I just recently, within the last two or three weeks, hired our first call him a farmer if you will, but I'm excited to have him on board because now that we're to a point where we have five hundred or so customers, we want our sellers to go out and get new logos. We want them to be focused on the upsell and oftentimes that juggling routine doesn't quite work out the way that you want it to as a sales manager. So we've hired of one person to come in and really you pick twenty five or thirty existing customers and see what they can do with them and really start to drive the revenue those accounts. Yeah, that makes sense. The issue sometimes that I have is if you're going to spend it depends on your sales cycle length, but if for us it's like twelve months, Yep, you know, and so if you're going to spend a year getting to know somebody, it feels strange for me sometimes to then immediately remove that person, meaning the salesperson from the equation. I like to continue to sort of try to develop that relationship, but it's entirely dependent on the sale cycle. I agree, and we're in a similar kind of sale cycle where it's nine to twelve months. And when we look at these accounts that are maybe two or three years old, in some cases they've just been neglected by the seller that close them originally, or, you know, maybe not even necessarily neglected, but the seller is focused on closing a different deal with a different company, or we've moved one seller out of the organization and given them a new opportunity somewhere else, and we need to just figure out how do we manage and maintain these existing customers who are really valuable and I think that there's a strong opportunity to make them more valuable. Yeah, I agree. So let's figure out your origin story, your humble beginnings. Yeah, where are you from? And you know, the key questions, I think, for a lot of the audience, or at least for me, because I'm just interested in this stuff, for because there's no real place to get a degree in sales, a lot of people come from very different educational backgrounds and find their way into sale. So how'd you get into sales and how did you become, you know, a top executive, part of the executive team and a company that's probably going to clear a hundred million and a rr and it's on a great path. How did all that happen? So, like a lot of your guests, Sam I, I come from humble background. I grew up in a very small town outside of Philadelphia and wanted something more and it was interesting like that seems to be a common theme of a lot of your guests. I got a little bit of a taste of it. My grandfather was the number one life insurance seller at prudential from after World War II up until the early s and had a spectacular career running a team and an office there and did very, very well, and I went like wow, I want to do that job. At the same time, I love and we can have a longer conversation about nature versus nurtured some other point, but I love technology to my grandparents got me a trash eighty, a trsaty computer when I was probably in the second or third grade, and I started to learn to code on that and that's how I got the technology by when I was in high school I sold office equipment and I was really good at that. I would go door to door and just knock on people's doors and say, Hey, do you want to cash or a dister and you need a copy or a fax machine? And as it comes out of my mouth, I'm really dating myself. And I did very well at...

...that as a kind of part time job. And then in college I took a job selling home improvements. I would drive around and knock on doors and residential neighborhoods and try to convince people to put a new roof on their house or to put a new sighting on their home. And I got to tell you, I was absolutely horrible at that job. I got fired in about six months. Well, and one thing is that you've been working the whole time. I mean that I'm always something. I it's I just have a lot of respect for people that. I mean, it sounds like you've been grinding it out, even when you're in school, for a long yeah, you have to. So after I got fired from that, I took a job where I was doing upsell or infomercials. So I when you would order like a you see an infomercial on television and you call the phone number, I was the guy that was entering the phone and I would either sell you additional packages of booty supplies or I would sell you insurance on your treadmill, or whatever it might be like, whatever the script said to sell. And I did well at that. And then my living situation changed a little bit and I needed to get an apartment on my own and that job wasn't paying the bills and I accidentally took a job selling software and I was working for a software reseller in Philadelphia and did very, very well there and a company called Borland, who, at the time it was based in Santa Cruz and was the third or fourth largest software company in the world, called me up and said we have a job for you in California. If you wanted it's yours, and I jumped on a plane and went to California and never went back and I worked there for about four years and started to get a little bit of a taste for management where the they would make me a team lead and then I ran a team of five inside sellers and then went to work for Webex. I was the third salesperson hired at Webex back in one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine and still have a copy of like my original active touch before they were even Webex paycheck. That was a great run for us. We grew that team very well and went through the IPO there and I ran a team of about twenty people. I went to a for compody called starfish the and starfish made a modem for motor rolla phones. We sold that company to Motorola and then, after I took some time off, I went to work at at the time Yahoo had an enterprise sales team and I went to run a west coast team for Yahoo Enterprise and immediately after me joining, the CEO and CEO of Yahoo came to us and said we shouldn't be in the enterprise software business. This was a bad idea. We're going to shut this business down. I liked working at Yahoo. Is a great experience and I stayed there for about five years after that and was really just hustling around trying to find any job that I could find at Yahoo. So I I went from enterprise sales. I was one of the product managers for Yahoo Messenger. I got into this was Carol Barts, the CEO at that point, way before Carol, way before girl. So it was right when I joined, right when Terry Simil joined. Oh Wow, the Terry simil joined, and then Dan rose and sway joined and then me. I was started in that lineup and they probably still couldn't pick me out of a line up. Harry sell was like the first big celebrity CEO that they hired when they were sort of figure out what chapter two is going to be his, if I'm not mistaken exactly. And I think the Terry Terry ran into like a lot of weird political things as he was trying to turn it into more of a media company versus a search company, and I think it was hard for him to get a lot of the people in Sunnyvale to make that to make that shift. Yeah, I understand so. But it was cool, like I felt like I was getting an MBA because I got to do sales and I got to do product management and I got to do ad sales and I I my last job there was on the MNA team where I got to help do an MNA integration with a lot of the like old web too, dotto companies that now, when I look around and I kind of see instagram. I'm like, well, that was sort of flicker before it was instagram. And I look at twitter and that could have been delicious. Should have been twitter, and all these companies that we were I think Yahoo is just ahead of the curve there. But I learned a ton and it was a great experience. And then I joined a company called Badgeville and helped the team there grow the revenue. Badial move me to London. I were in their European operations there. Came back to the US and Mark Schuster and Jason Lympkin introduced me to a really cool company in La called Retention Science, where I ran their sales marketing in customer success for a year. And it sounds a little bit spoiled, but my family just didn't like living in Santa Monica. It was the bother. You know, the bay areas home for us and for my kids. Their friends would fly down or they would fly up on the weekends and then everybody would disappear and then you kind of go into this other weird life and it was just close enough to taste it, but it was far enough out of reach that you didn't have like the normal life that we had back in the bay area. So we moved back to the bay area year later and lived on the same street that we lived on before we moved to London. Great, that's awesome. And then three years ago I joined dynamic signal and it's exciting because I really do believe that we're changing the way that large organizations can communicate with the vast majority of their employees who traditionally they've had to communicate with the signs in the break room or paper newsletters. And one of the things is really exciting about this company is, for the most part, every customer that we have you've heard of, right. It's not a...

...kind of smaller SASS company that's selling to online retailers that may or may not be around in a couple of years. Dynamic signals customers, JP Morgan Chase or large logistics company or Oracle or Cisco or these companies just aren't going to go out of business anytime and then your future, which kind of gives an extra layer of safety to the overall organization. Yeah, and do you sell to HR? Who you selling to? So I'm going to a meeting on Monday at a large retailer. They've thirty people coming to this presentation and it's people ranging from communications, so the Commons people tend to be the main driver of this, but hr is one of them. legals, of course, one of them, because communicating to hourly workers is often times a tricky thing from a legal standpoint. It's we've got a COO that's coming to the meeting. So, because that's the person who really cares, how do we communicate out to all these thirty FIVEZERO employees? We've got a lot of it people who are coming. We've got some of the field managers, so like a region, like a district, vice president type of roles. So the wedge tends to be communications or HR, but then it very quickly spreads out from there. Yeah, and is the Roi. The employee retention and play engagement leading to greater productivity, in addition to probably like a your regulatory like you're legally required to provide. You know, this helps fulfill regulatory or leak requirements around employment. Yeah, you're hired that, you've nailed it. There you go. So what would it do if I could change, you know, employee engagement five percent across a hundred thousand workforce? This is why it's, you know, a million bucks here or whatever. Yeah, you know, I mean it's we had a client recently who told us that for every point increase in their employee net promoter score, they see a half a percent increase in topline revenue. Oh my that I mean that's a that's a great stat for the HR row or chief people officer it's, or the CEO or the CEO and it and I think that people, especially in this day and age where communications amongst your friends and amongst your peers and amongst the news like you're getting so much information that people just expect a level of transparency that I think a lot of companies don't give their employees yet, but we're seeing now that a lot of companies want to be able to do that and they want to share what's going on and they just haven't had the ability to do that in the past. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. Well, thank you for that background and I have a couple questions specifically related to the background. One of them is you've been doing this a while, and not only have you been doing it a while, but you've had consistent success. You know, Webeck's ipoed starfish was acquired by Motorola. You were part of Yahoo. So my question is, what keeps you motivated, like what keeps you fired up to jump back in and do this thing again of building sales teams and, you know, hitting a revenue number and the grind of it. Like what is it about this pat is it the career, like what are the things that are driving you every day? Both my parents were entrepreneurs. My Mom ran the office supply store that I work for in high school. My Dad is a machinist and tool maker and you I've always grown up building things. My build furniture as a hobby at my house. So I love the idea of taking nothing and building it into something and I think that the opportunity now a dynamic signal. When I joined it was five people and now it's thirty five. Like now I'm looking at okay, like how do I continue to take this piece of clay that we've molded into the half shape that I want it to be, and I feel like there's still a lot of molding left to do here. I just love building things and fixing things and that's just kind of something that's in my DNA. Yeah, no, I mean it's a very common. It's very human. I mean it's basically it's a long winded way of me saying me too. Yeah, that the feeling of having nothing exist and then something exists, whether it's a process or client or a team, just can't be beat. No, it's so fun. You mentioned nature versus nurture. I mean do you, I guess, when you're thinking about the elements of your personality that you think have led you to be successful and or conveying that out to the rest of the community, what do you think are the most important skills or qualities and an exceptional salesperson? I would say empathy is number one. Curiosity is certainly number two. Then you take that empathy and you take that curiosity and you start to transition that into okay, well, how can I help solve a problem for somebody? Then, of course, like just the ability to ask for money. I think is is number four. But I really do think like if you are a curious person and you ask smart questions and you can be empathetic and put yourself in somebody else's shoes. But I think those two things go a long way and it's one of the things I often coach younger sellers, whether they're on my team or elsewhere, is these people have a lot of stuff going on in their lives and it's you know, they're not just sitting around going like, Oh, you know what, I got to get on this dynamic signal contract, let me just run this all over the place and sign it like. These are large companies and large companies have big problems and I try to coach people like, if you work for a company that has a hundred thousand people in it, think about a town that has a hundred thousand people in it, and the company probably has the same problems and your head of...

Colms and your head of HR are probably dealing with bigger things like that. So you know, right now we've got Hurricane Florence coming into South Carolina and I want my rep in the southwest to do well this quarter. But it would be a very selfish thing to just call that person up and go hey, before you guys evacuate, can you hit that Docu sign button for me? I mean you could do it on your phone, so on them. Come on, I mean, I understand that your towns flooded, right and I think it's so important to be able to put yourself in the shoes of the people that you're working with, really understand what matters to them and how can you make them successful if they want to be successful and if they don't want to be successful. Okay, what's the other motivator for you? Is it to not get yelled at by your boss, or is it to I've you hit this project, you're going to get this bonus out of it or there's a promotion out of it or whatever. You know, whatever it might be, just really understanding that and trying to really grasp what it is that's important to that person and then, you know, keep digging into that and asking more questions about it and helping to understand what's going on there. I think intellectual curiosity. It's the fundamental yeah, the root of everything and many ways. And then your question, like to your you know, is it nature versus nurture? It's probably nurture. I was very lucky. Again, I know my grandparents were very affluent and kind of took me around all over the northeastern seaboard to see museums and to see orchestras and see symphony. So I got to experience that kind of lifestyle. So I got very comfortable dealing with people there. I had my parents who are the builders, so I got to experience that and and just kind of the melding of those two things, kind of that curiosity and that ability to build is kind of led to where I am to day. Yeah, those experiences, those form of of experiences, for whatever the reason that you got to experience in whether your grandparents are affluent, etceteras, they're so important when you're young. One of the things, part of the reason we moved to we move to London, I wanted to be able to give that experience. So to my kids. Did you like London? Oh my God, I move back in harbead. I absolutely loved it. What's the difference? Not to go off on too much of a tangent, but what's the difference? Is the key difference is when you're building sales team specifically, that you notice between London and the state, Europeans are less pushy. Is the big one. I think that there is a European culture. It's a little bit more passive. I was in Spain once and the person I was talking to you said you Americans are crazy. You work so hard during the best parts of your life only so that you have a little bit of money to not be able to spend it in the later parts of your life. And I was really and I was like okay, that that sums up the European experience pretty well. They're just not as driven. By my experiences there, there's less quarterly pressure, there's less kind of pressure to how people there's just overall like less like things will happen when they happen, versus like how do I kind of continue to push and drive this thing as hard as I possibly can? Yeah, I've no, I mean we've got offices in London with my company and I guess our CEO just moved from London to New York and he said, you know, I like New York. It's more transactional. People like to do deals here. Yeah, which is I think is interesting. One of the things that you we sort of we were talking about offline. You said no salesperson has ever had a bad call. Tell what you mean by that. Oh, it's I that's just something that I've always found funny. Like if, as a sales manager, when you ask somebody about you know, they always come rushing into your office and they're like, oh, hey, I just had the best call with Soandso, and you're like well, well, why was it a good call? It's like, Oh, well, we talked about the their kids and our kids play soccer together and we talked about the forts and what's going on there and they would just like we, we just it was just such a good call and like well, like are they going to give us some money? Or what's going to happen next? or Oh, I haven't figure that out yet. There were they're really committed to the they're so committed to doing this project and I just like it got to the point where I said, I don't want to hear about your good calls anymore unless there's like a clearly definable next step action item to it. You guys are dynamic some but it sounds like an an enterprice sale. So do you use a methodology, like is there a process are using medic walk us through, like you know your sales cycles? Just give us an overview of like how you progress a deal through your stages at dynamic signal. The average deal size about a hundred fifty thousand dollars a year. Aarr. We've got a half a dozen or so clients that are paying us well over a million and you know bunch that are paying us under that hundred fiftyzero dollar mark, but that's kind of the the number. Our average sale cycle from like a really qualified opportunity to close is about six months. You know, sometimes they last a year, year and a half and sometimes they go ruler really quickly and you know, again there's lots of different forces that impact that. We do use medic we were running a sales methodology that called skip Miller created for us and it was a great model and then we changed our business a little bit and change our messaging a little bit. So we've continued to kind of tweak and adjust things. In terms of what the process looks like. I don't think it's too much different than any other sance process, but we're constantly looking at okay,...

...what are the best sellers on the team doing and how do we make that a lot more repeatable and then can we inject that into a process? So one of the things one of my head of enterprise discovered when he got here. He just he immediately picked on some picked up on something that should have been very evident to the rest of us, and that is, if you don't have a senior leader, CEO, Coo, svp of something in a meeting by about your third meeting, that deals never going to happen, essentially. So we went you're a hundred percent right. We looked at all the data around and we said, okay, you have to have that senior leader in a call or in a meeting by the third conversation. Else otherwise we're just kind of spinning our wheels on this opportunity and let's push it back to the SDR team and have them nurture that. So that's an example of that. But it's let's get the opportunity from the str let's qualify it, let's qualified some mo or, let's figure out if where the right selection and if we're o the right selection. Let's go through the legal process. We're not doing brain surgery or lunch missiles or anything here. It's we're selling software and it's it seems like it has been more or less the same process of selling anything, with minor tweaks for the existence of time. Yeah, now you're right. The benefit of again to your point, whatever you call it, whether it's medic my friend Dave Govin, they call it at Hatachi medical. I think we're going to do something at behave ox called Med pick cary medically have medic sox. Yet that's when I use a couple of jobs ago. What is the thought? What does the Fox stand for? The Fox is just the Fox is the person that's going to come out of your deal at the end and bite you in the ass and fill your guilt. That is probably the CEO, the CEO or CEO or something well, or could be like the one of the things that like our Fox and our deal tends to be it. So we recognize hey, if it always has veto power, so get it involved in your deals earlier. Like let's not go through a nine month sale cycle only to get to the end and have the it guy go well, you never take a bunch of boxes for this and we don't approve it and you've got this other thing that's kind of like that and it blows everything up. So let's just let's call that guy out early and make sure we can do something here. Yeah, I mean the benefit of the whatever the acronym is, it's just a to do list for the sales person. Some hundred percent. Go Out and answer this question. Go Out and answer that question and those are the questions we know need to be answered. So one question I have. You're running a big team. It's grown quickly. When you think about success or failure in your role, what are the biggest drivers? So obviously revenue and as we grow and continue to scale the organization, the type of revenue becomes a lot more important to me into the organization. As an example, we've noticed that accounts that are under a certain dollar threshold having a much higher propensity to churn and probably the beginning of two thousand and nineteen, we're just going to put the foot down and just say anything that is below this threshold we're just not going to do that deal. So either keep your deal above that or walk away from it as fast as possible. The time to value on a particular deal. So is the CAC right? Is the LTV right, and we get this done faster like that. Whole thing is like how do we look at overall clients excess us and making sure that you know, anybody can go get a hundred thousand dollars, but can you get a hundred thousand dollars? That turns into three hundred, that turns into a million over the course of three years, and that says I start thinking about the deals that we're doing today. That's really what I want to that's really what I'm starting to look at and how I'm measured on that. And then the other ones around retention of employees. Are we doing the right development of the employees? Are we giving them the right training? Are we putting them up on the right career trajectory? I always like to understand not so much what does your next job look like, but what does your next next job look like, and how do we make sure we're putting every you know, the people, on the right path to get to that next, next step in their career? I'm going to ask you a highly tactical question, okay, because you've done this. So when you think about your dashboards, you know, when you think about the readoubts in the metrics then or refreshing every day. So obviously cact LTV like, what are the five or ten? Give us some metrics that you're looking at on a very regular basis to give you overall. You know, obviously you're looking at revenue, but what else you looking at? So what I'm looking at is more and this is super tactical. I'm really looking at overall activity. So these are the kind of deals. Again, people get distracted. They've you know, not everybody has a hurricane coming through, but they've got their own metaphorical hurricane that's coming through their office. So I'm constantly looking at activity and our people staying on top of these deals. And I feel like if somebody shows up to your house with the big bag of money and says hey, I want to give this to you, Sam, like you should be able to take that. But if somebody says hey, you know, if you jump through some of these hoops, there might be a big bag of money at the end of it, I want you to kind of continue to probe that. So I'm looking at when was the last activity? When's the next stamp? What was that last activity look like? Are we getting to the ITP person? Are we getting to a sea level person like? How big is the next meeting? How many people are involved in these conversations? All of...

...those things tend to lean towards a better deal for the company. If I talk to a seller and they say I've got this hundred fifty thousand deal, but I've only talked to one person inside of the organization, I'm going to be really skeptical about the reality of that deal. Whereas if I talk to a different cellar and they say I've got this three Hundredzero deal and I've talked to for people on the HR team and we've got five people from COMMS and I've met the CEO and the CEO of the organization and it is blessed it and we've got your twelve or fifteen people who are involved in making this a success, that's going to be a good deal for us. Probably not unlike a lot of sads companies like the churn, when it happens, oftentimes tends to happen because the champion who actually bought the software got fired. So it's really important that we've got more than just Joe and communications or Sally and it as are single point of failure there, that we've got a good army of people who were there supporting this program if you, let's say you seller, has a really good meeting for people, they say let's set up the next meeting, but calendars don't line up. It's three weeks from now, are you saying? Well, between now and three weeks from now, let's to grow a way to sort of nurture all those different relationships and drop them some value and maybe get how are you maintaining the APCITY? One one hundred percent? One, not one hundred percent. They have to stay on those things and it is hard to get for senior level people from four different departments in the room at the same time, especially we're just coming off of summer both trying to schedule for people in the same room in Europe at the same time is damn near impossible. So that nurture part of it is so critical and it's you know, the nursing is a little bit different for each role, like it is going to get nurtured a little differently than h jar than comes and an executive, but we absolutely want to stay on all of those people during that time. Yeah, I agree. So it feels like a lot of the emphasis very traditionally is on sort of, you know, value based selling. But you were sort of mentioning that. You know you think proposals are a waste of time. You don't want to demotorily walk us through a little bit of your thinking around how to make sure that, I guess, there's the right level of equality perhaps between you and the prospect or what the motivation is for, you know, for not sending proposals. For example, I have a lot of crazy beliefs that a lot of people don't necessarily agree with, but oftentimes all beliefs are crazy. Well, obviously, obviously we want to hear them. Now. My feeling on proposals is that most time when you tell somebody a number, they're going to disappear. It's very rare that you go hey, send me a proposal, I spend an hour putting together like a fancy document and I send it over to you and then, like, you call me immediately and you're like, Oh my God, Hey Sam, I'm so ready to buy this thing. I sort of feel like, rather than sending a proposal, like when you're ready, I'm just going to put together a contract and send that over to you and you know, the cost of this is twelvezero a month. Then if you want to buy it, great, let's work on a contract. If you don't want to buy it, you need to go budget it, go write down Twelvezero on a post it but I don't want to spend lots and lots of time on something that's just going to end up in the Bin, and I get you, and oftentimes I do here I'll about throw another belief, weird belief, at you. I think that sales people tend to use proposals as a crutch when they haven't sold the value. And if you haven't sold the value into anything like your proposal just going to get looked at as a number. But if I can convince you that my solution will generate ten million dollars a year in savings and you're completely bought into that ten million dollars, as long as my proposal doesn't say more than ten million dollars on it, you're probably going to you will likely buy that because you're going to get a machine that when you put a dollar in the top end, ten dollar falls at the bottom end. People like you are too quick to rush to a proposal without figuring out that value. Maybe that's a better way of articulating it. Well, I I just don't think it's that controversial, or at least you know. Okay, yeah, I mean I guess I agree with you and I've seen exactly your point. Sales people like it because it's work, so it feels like I'm doing something and it helps me, but it doesn't really help. So what would you say when somebody says, okay, Scott's been great, you know, this is great, just send me a proposal, I actually say I don't send proposals and I realize like that's a little bit to stand off fish. What I say is, I look, I send contracts. I'm happy to send a contract to you and if you know, you can sign and send it back to me, but I also know I will. We're not ready for a contract yet. Okay, which is which I appreciate, Sam, and I wouldn't expect that on the first call. That would be a weird thing if you were ready to buy something. But I think like if you're looking for a number to put into a budget, I think that you can write down Twelvezero a month is probably a good range for a company of your size. Oh well, that's actually there. So you did provide at least you you answer the question without giving too much, I guess. One of the guys on my team actually answers the question in maybe the best way I've ever heard, and he does it so consistently so well. He'll say typically for your company your size, it's about a hundred fifty thousand dollars a year, plus or minus fifty percent. That's awesome. It's such a great way to provide a ballpark without providing anything of that's really measurable or...

...accountable. Right. It's a little bit of like just please fuck off or now, but also like, and you do this at your company, like if somebody is asking for a number that quickly, they're clearly a commodity buyer that doesn't appreciate value and they should just go to the low price leader of whatever it is industry that you're selling into and buy that, because they're if they're so keen on how much does this cost early on in the relationship, they're just not going to care about whatever value that you do and any sales process that you go through is likely going to be a waste of time because it's so hard to convert a commodity buyer to a value buyer. You're absolutely right. I mean we had the situation here a couple weeks ago where, you know, sort of like a tire kicking exploration and they said send us over your price saying and I didn't want to do it, but I also I didn't consider a sale cycle or an opportunity. But I also was thinking the back of my mind, well, if they ever do get around to buying, it would be nice if they had some information, but we ended up not sending them the pricing information. Is The answer to the question and I think that there's ways that you can tease it a little bit to figure out are they a commodity buyer or are they a value buyer? Just by asking about like what other things have you purchased and what, if the value that you're getting out of that, and how do you see people using that inside of organization, and you can start to tease that out and figure out if there are a value or commodity buyer. And if you're trying to build a value base sales process, you should just ignore all of the commodity buyers and weed them out as fast as possible, because otherwise it's going to all of that stuff that we're just talking about with time to value and Kak and LTV. That gets kind of continuously driven down and I think like there's a space in the SASS market for a second place value leader. Like not everybody buy sales force. There's people that buy the low price leader in crm. They're not a bad company, like they're not sales force, but they're out there. Yeah, now, you're absolutely right. I mean to your point. One of the biggest things people say about ineffective or bad sales practices is holding on to opportunities that you know you're going to lose way too long. Yep, probably directly related to what you're talking about. I did a talk recently called kill your darlings, which is a famous literary expression of about Writers Fall in love with the character or they fall in love with a sentence or a paragraph that they've written, but it's not a hundred percent relevant to the overall message of the story that you're trying to tell. So it's hard for a writer to kill that character off. Similarly, the sales people like I've built that relationship with that person and I've talked to him about their kids soccer game and I've had so many great calls with them, but it's never going to turn in anything and we just have to be honest with ourselves and kill these things absolutely kind a few more minutes. Walk US quickly through the list of things that you believe. That you believe others don't believe because I think it's a great list. I don't think the demo cell. I think too often sales people are like, oh, hey, they want a demo, let me show you everything that we can possibly do under the sun, and they go through every like bell and whistle and knob inside of their experience and they try to show everything off, and really what most people want to do is have a business conversation. Again, most value buyers want to have a value conversation, but they want some proof that what you're selling actually works, and I think that you can show that in three to five minutes and you don't need to show everything. At some point you need to show everything to somebody who is using it, but even in like most cases, you don't need to show everything everything. And I see too often sales people that what should be a seven or eight minute demo turns into a forty or fifty minute demo and people just get bored of that Shit. So be number one. I believe that you can't sell over email. I think emails too easy to ignore. People get two hundred emails a day and it's impossible to get through all of them and with any kind of reasonable amount of time. Just pick up the phone and call these people, like if you've got a good relationship an you want to sell to them, don't list your whole pitch and like a longass email, like most people aren't going to read your two thousand word email that you're putting together for them. So just pick up the phone and call them and have a conversation. And too often I see like, Oh, I'm going to I'll give this pitch over email, like no, just just pick up the phone and call them, like you have a relationship with these people and they want to talk to you. If they really want to buy software, they will answer the phone of all call you back when they see her a number. I think that this one might be my team's going to be pissed, but I think that most people can push harder. I talk to some of the team at Gong yesterday and I think that they've got a great leader and Ryan over there and a good team. But one of the things, one of the stats that they have is that it used to take six or seven contacts to get somebody on the phone or to connect with somebody, and now takes fourteen or fifteen, and that's a doubling of that and what less than a decade or so. So I do think that people can push a little bit harder and it's amazing like when you just say, favor of you, or hey, could you do this for me, like when you ask it like that, like it is pushy but it's not belligerent, and I feel like if people are getting kicked out of one client per order, they're pushing about the right amount. If they're getting kicked out of more than one client recorder or they're pushing way to have art. That is a great stat yea, that's the price of addmission for this podcast right there.

All right, you know, I the last last few questions and this has been awesome. I've got a super tactical one that I did not prep before. Okay, your policy on Linkedin requests? Are you a I need to know everybody person specifically and I manage a tight network. How do you view connecting with people on Linkedin? I tend to fall into that category and my one brush with celebrity early on when he founded the company, I spent some time with Reid Hoffman. He came over to Yahoo to talk to us about why Linkedin is important and why a corporate social networker, a business social network, is important, and somebody asked him that same question. He said I only accept invitations from people whom I know and that I've worked within the past. I've tried hard to maintain that policy, but I do have a lot of lumped in people. Fair enough, I'm the opposite. I accept all requests and I know very few of the people in my linkedin network, sadly. But it's hard because then then when somebody's like, Oh hey, Sam, I saw that you were connected to Scott, can you make an introduction there? And you're like, well, I don't really know Scott that well. So or do you just like blindly send them off, like I know people to do that too. I get like the Hey, Scott, you and I met at some conference that you spoke at in some weird place a million years ago. Can I introduce you to my friend and Joe? It's like, that's weird. I don't get that request as often as I think as I would think that I would, but if I do get it, no, I say no, I don't you know. I know that. I laugh and I say listen, I know there are first connection, but I have no idea who that person is and I'm sorry to tell you. What we like to do is sort of like at the end, it's sort of pay it forward a little bit, and that's where we yeah ask, you know, who are the people that have inspired you? Who are some of your favorite VP's of sales or CMOS or other great leaders that you think we should know about. So I got a couple. So Ryan Longfeld, who I just mentioned, it Gong. I've got to know him recently. He's a super sharp guy. Really seems to know his stuff and would be a good conversation. Abe Smith, who's the Croro a decision. Great Guy. Ryan a Zeus, who is the I think he's still the Cerero at ring central or VP of worldwide sales. I'm not sure what it is. Exact title is superstellar guy. Greg Brown is one of the best VP's of sales I've ever worked with. From Black Hawk. Kevin gaither done at zipp recruiter, if you've ever worked with him, and that guy's that guy's phenomenal to know. That's awesome. And then any like great books if we want to. I think at some point I'm going to put together like the Sales Acer podcast reading list, because we got so many great recommendations. But what are some of the books that have really inspired you or that you're just reading recently that you think we should pick up? So there's a couple. So one that I got introduced to maybe a decade ago from a friend of mine. She recommended this book because it was all about preparation and it's something that I'm really passionate about. Whenever you're on a call or an interview like this, or you're going to give a talk or anything like that, preparation is so critical. And she turned me on to this book called shadow divers, which I try to read every probably every two years. But it is about a group of divers, deep sea divers, who find a German U boat off the coast of New Jersey, and this is a true story. I think they're making a movie about it now. But these guys dive down and it's most of the book be going these sixty minute dies, but they spend weeks and weeks and weeks preparing for this sixty minute died because they're two hundred and fifty feet below water. Everything is so critical and you have to be so careful and so perfect about everything that it's a really good insight. And what I glean from the book was how important preparation is when you have a big event that you've got to go to, whether that's a big client pitch or whether I'm giving a talk and I'm going to be on stage somewhere, or I've just got a meeting with my boss to go well prepare for a board meeting, like just how important that preparation is to be successful. Great Book. I love that. That's awesome and it has nothing to do with sales at all. It's just like this fascinating story about these guys that are diving looking for sunken treasure because there's a lot of old ships off the coast of New Jersey, and they find this German you both that you know in one thousand nine hundred and forty four or whatever, got very close to the the New Jersey. Sure that you can dive down to it, pitch anything by or and clap. I think is a great book. It's one that I listened to on a pretty regular basis. I like influenced by Robert Calladini. I think it's one of the better books in terms of is that how you pronounce his name? I have no idea. I love that. I hope that that's I've been I hope it is too, but I have no idea. I feel like that's the right way I'm going to what's crazy is is I have it on audio book and I it's one of those books I kindly listened to every six months or so because it's a pretty quick read and you can do it in a week of commuting, or I can do in a week of commuting, and he says it and I still don't know how to say it. Fantastic. Jack Trout's power of simplicity is just like all it's all about, just like how can you, how can you take stuff out of whatever you're doing to make it more simple for the audience? And it's really just about kind of dumping it down just so you have the most important message. They're right. If it takes twenty words to say, can you say in ten? If it takes five sides, can you do it in three? Like just how do you just break all that stuff out to get to the really important stuff? When I do books I try to...

...do a business related book, a fiction related book in a nonfixtion related book and sort of that cycle. I thought bad blood was awesome. It was awesome. It's crazy. It's totally crazy. Right, it's crazy. What's The guy's name? Sonny, you know, the yeah rend or whatever. Just I don't know, man. It's one of the things it's just shocking about the world is how far liars can get. Hopefully they're caught at some point, but just you can go along way because people are generally gullible. Well, the crazy thing to me not only that, but like, what did those people talk about when they got home at night? They had a thousand employees. They're like you go home to your wife or your husband and they ask you like a what did you do it work today, like like do you just lie like the they all lie about it, or did they think they were working on something that actually worked? Or that's what I didn't understand about the whole thing. Well, one of her strategies was to keep it so compartmentalized that you never got the just stalt so you thought, well, maybe my thing is, you know, challenging, but maybe the other teams are, you know, working effectively or something like that. So, so nuts yeah, Scott, I'm unfortunately I feel like we could talk for a while, but we're at the end of our time together, so the last thing we want to do is because dynamic signal is growing. You guys are hiring. What is the best way? You have a kind of executives that are listening to this right now. Yep, so how can they email you? How should they get in touch with you? To the point of Linkedin, what's your preferred mechanism for outreach? Email, scotted, dynamic signalcom twitter is always a good one to get ahold of me. I'm just at snars ash and AARS. Linkedin is fine, although I probably won't accept the the requests, I'll certainly reply to the inmail. That's pretty much those are the best ways. I guess that's fantastic, Scott. Thank you very much. Congrats on all the success at dynamic signal and over the course the career. Thanks for all the book recommendations and it's really great chatting with you and if you're ever in New York, drop me a line. Would love to Sam. I appreciate the time that I thank you. Thank you. Hey, folks, it's Sam Jacobs, founder of the New York revenue collective and the host of your favorite podcast, the sale sacer podcast, and this is Sam's corner. We talked about a bunch of different things with Scotch Nars. I really enjoyed speaking with them, and here's a couple tidbits. The main one I would encourage everybody sort of focus in on hone in on the act of sales. Is Not the act of of taking orders and it is not the act of providing information requested in sort of a one way, unidirectional relationship. It's not send me a proposal, okay, here's our proposal. WHAT'S THE PRICE? Here's the price right. It is the act of discovering whether the prospects pain, whether their interests and priorities are aligned with the value that your solution can create, and the way that you do that is by having an engage business conversation where you ask lots of questions, and it needs to be an equal conversation. You're not just they may view you as a service provider or a vendor, but that's not how you should view it. You should view it as an interaction of equals. John Barrows has this thing where he has a gift to get score card. Scott talked about proposals or a waste of time. Don't give them full pricing when they ask for it. But the context is you need to qualify their interest around value before you talk about the specifics of the purchasing cycle. And the people that are just pay you know it's the first phone call. WHAT'S THE PRICE? Send me a price, send me a proposal. Hey, you're not going to send me proposal, I don't know your problem is, I'll just go to the next vender. Those people are probably not going to be valuable buyers anyway. So you have to qualify them out of the pipeline and holding onto those people is as often the mark in the hallmark of an ineffective salesperson. So when someone says send me a proposal, take a step back and say, Hey, I'd love to send you a proposal, but tell me about the process for typically buying things. Let's confirm that you're interested and maybe let's have a conversation with a few other folks. So just be careful about how much you information you give away and try to have a more structured discovery process that creates a relationship of equals. So that's been my one more revelatory insight from your favorite person, Sam Jacobs. But let's also thank our sponsors. So this episode, as always, was brought to you by two sponsors. That's air call, your advanced call center software, complete business phone and contact center, one hundred percent natively integrated into any CRM, and outreach, a customer engagement platform that helps efficiently and effectively engage prospects to drive more pipeline and close more deals. Now to check out the show notes, see upcoming guests and play more episodes from our incredible lineup of sales leaders, visit sales hackercom and head to the PODCAST TAB. You will find our podcasts on itunes, Google play. And if you enjoyed this episode, as I see many people doing, please share with your peers on Linkedin, twitter or elsewhere. If you want to get in touch with me, you can find me on twitter at Sam f Jacobs. We're heading into election season, so or we're intelection season again. Politics. The views are my own. Don't at me if you don't like...

...my politics. I'm sorry, and then Linkedin or keep it professional. On linkedin, linkedincom in slash Sam F Jacobs. Reach out to me. Thank you so much for all the support and this has been Sam's corner. Thank you so much for listening.

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