The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 2 years ago

32. Why Curiosity and Passion are Superpowers for Sales Leaders w/ Scott Schnaars

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This week on the Sales Hacker podcast, we speak to sales veteran, executive, and leader, Scott Schnaars. Scott has a long background in sales and has experienced the highs and lows of a long career selling different products. Scott has a great attitude on success and is one of the top leaders in SaaS, now overseeing global sales at Dynamic Signal.

One two one tree: Three Bo: everybody welcome to the Sales Hackerpodcast is your host Sam Jacobs. I am the founder of the New York revenuecollective. I guess we're calling it the revenue collective rit large now,because we've got London and we're opening Denver soon, so a bunch morecities to come. I'm also the chief revenule officer to place calledBEHAVVOX and super excited for today's episode. Today's episode Feature ScotchChenars, he's svp of worldwide sales at dynamic signal, he's talented andexperience hales executive, and we had a great conversation now first, I alsowant to think our sponsors are wonderful sponsor, so the first is aircall. At this point I hope you know air calls the phone system designed for themodern sales team, not the antiquated sales team. The modern sales team erecall seamlessly integrates into your crm, eliminating data entry for yourreps and giving you the manager greater visability into your team's performancethrough advanced reporting. You can also add new lines in minutes and usein call coaching to reduce ramptime for your new reps. the website is aircalled a ile forwardsh sales hacker are called at io forward, Slah sales hacker.Our second sponsor is outreach. That's outreached, O io, the leading salesengagement platform, outreach triples the productivity of sales teams andempowers them to drive, predictable and measurable Revenue Growth, which is thekind of growth that we all want. They do that by prioritizing the rightactivities, scaling customer engagement with intelligent automation, and theyalso make teams more effective, while improving visibility into it reallydrives results. So go over to outreach, a IO forward, Lash sales hacker to seehow thousands of customers, including Cloudera glassdoor, Pandora and Zilo,rely on out reach to deliver higher revenue. PERSAIL's rap finally want tothank a couple fans that have been talking about the podcast on Linkedinand I'm sure, I'm forgetting a few, but a couple: People First Jay Cronan, whoreally got a lot of value out of the John Berrol's episode. Thank you. JMatt Po, reached out to me Robert Doyle, reached out to me and said: Hey GreatPodcast, and then James Brett just posted about the tod Caponi episode.Just as of today. It September fourteenth you're, probably listeningto this in late October, so you're traveling back in time with me rightnow, but James. Thank you very much and thanks to tod todd's got a new book. Ifyou haven't bought it, it's called the transparency sale. It came out October.Ninth, make sure you get one and make sure you listen to the episode, becausehe's great and without further ado, let us listen to my interview with Scotchsnars on the sales hacker podcast everybody, its Sam Jacobs, welcome backto the Sales Hacker podcast incredibly excited today to have as my guest ScottSchnars, who is SBP of worldwide sales at dynamic signal, Scots, a longtimeveteran of the sales industry and of startup land and we're going to chatwith him about his background, his experiences and all of the ways that hehelps build great teams. So Scott Welcome to the show Salmot's great tobe here. Thank you very much. We're excited to have you so for those- let's,let's just you know, we do the the baseball card thing at the very top ofthe show, so that we understand your background and a little bit of contact.So your name is tdid. I say your name correctly by the way you want toabsolutely absolutely it's like cars and guitars. There you go cars, guitarsand Schnars Yep, and your sp word wide sales at dynamic signal tell us aboutdynamic signal for those notin to know, I sure so, dynamic signalisic company,that is a assas organization. Of course, we've been around about eight years andour real focus is on helping large organizations. Think your fortune, onethousand, helping them communicate to their frontline workers. WorkforceCommunications, one of the things that I think people in technology tend toforget is that most employees don't get a laptop and a Hoodie and a phone and anice notebook on their first day of work. Most employees are given maybe afifteen minute, here's what you have to do with your job and they go off andthey go do it, and these are for the people who actually keep the economyhumming. These are people that work in hospitality. They work in manufacturing.They work in health care. They work in janitorial services. All of thesepeople ar helpful employees to these large organizations and a lot of waysthey make up the entire company, but historically organizations have had ahard time communicating with those people and we make a platform thatmakes it really easy to communicate to those people on the super computer thateverybody carries in their pocket wow, and so how big is the company from youknow? What's the revenue Arr Range, you don't have to tell peces so so thecompany is about three hundred people and I've got about thirty five quotacarrying sellers who ere doing an enterprise quota carrying quota. So Ithink that the listeners can sort of figure out what the revenue rangeisbased on that okay cool and then a little bit of capital raised or youknow. Just where are you in your funding stage is is it sounds likeprobably pursuing you know some Ip event at someplane or something likethat yeah from Your Lips to God years, as I say, I think that we've raisedabout a hundred million dollars as an...

...organization and most recently earlierthis year we raised about forty five million dollars from Cisco, Microsoft,Adam Street and Boyt Telegom Wewl, congratulations, yeah, thank you, andso let's quickly get a birds Ziyeview ofyour organization. I think you mentioned some of the numbers but walkus through sort of both the sales organization and then the functions.I'm imagining you know the traditional str ae but walk us through all of thedifferent roles that you've got yeah. So we have, like I said: We'e got aboutthirty five quota carrying sellers. I've got three groups who are in the USor made up of corporate team. That is focusing on any organization between athousand and five thousand employees. I've got an enterprise sales team thatis focused on any organization between five thousand and about a hundredthousand employees and a strategic AC counts team. That's FOCUSD on anythingwith more than a hundred thousand employees, and then I've got a teambased in London where they have about five quota carrier sellers. There we'vegot a team of nine or ten solution consultant. So these are the people whoare helping to design what the implementation might look like: they're,helping to design any kind of launch and roll out plan and really helpingthe sellers achieve their quotas. Various assundry of sales, operation,sales, enablement people to help the team to really hum, and then our SDRteam actually rolls up to our marketing team. ND We've got about fifty SDR, sowe're trying to keep it a little bit higher than the traditional one to oneratio and when you think about, like the companies that we sell to that sortof fortune, two thousand or five thousand or Global Fivehsand, whateveryou want to call it, they may be a marketing strategy really works well inthat capacity. So it makes it easier to have the SDR sales person team reallyget laser focused on just a handful of accounts. That was actually going to beone of my questions so unpartially. This is selfishly because we're sort offiguring out some of the structure here behavox, but the enterprise team. Whenthey sell, is it hunters and farmers or it's like you know they get theycountsthey once they close the account on the first sale. They maintain therelationship so that they can continue to expand the account or is it adesignation between new logos and existing logos, so we're going througha similar kind of transition. I just recently within the last two or threeweeks hired our first call him a farmer if you will, but I'm excited to havehim on board, because now that we're to a point where we have five hundred orso customers, we want our sellers to go out and get new logos. We want them tobe focused on the UPSELE and oftentimes that juggling routine doesn't quitework out the way that you wantit to as a sales manager, so we've hired oneperson to come in and really you pick twenty five or thirty existingcustomers and see what they can do with them and really start to drive to therevenue at tdoes accounts. Yeah. That makes sense the issue sometimes that Ihave is, if you're going to spend it depends on your self cycle lengths butF for us. It's like twelve months yep, you know, and so, if you're going tospend a year getting to know somebody, it feels strange for me sometimes tothen immediately remove that person meeting the salesperson from theequation. I like to continue to sort of try to develop that relationship, butit's entirely dependent on the sale cycle. I agree and we're in a similarkind of sale cycle where it's nine to twelve months and when we look at these accounts that aremaybe two or three years old. In some cases, they've just been neglected bythe seller. That close them originally or you know, maybe not even necessarilyneglected, but the seller is foocused on closing a different deal with adifferent company or we've moved one cellar out of the organization andGivin them a new opportunity somewhere else, and we need to just figure outhow to we manage and maintain these existing customers who are reallyvaluable, and I think that there's a strong opportunity to make them morevaluable yeah. I agree. So, let's figure out your origin story, yourhumble beginnings, yeah, where re you from- and you know the key questions Ithink for a lot of the audience- or at least for me, because I'm justinterested in this stuff for because there's no real place to get a degreein sales. A lot of people come from very different educational backgroundsand find their way into sale. So how d you get into sales, and how did youbecome? You know a top executive part of the Executive Team N, a company-that's probably going to clear a hundred million an Arr and it's on agreat path. How did all that happen? So, like a lot of your guest Sam, I comefrom humble background. I grew up in a very small town outside of Philadelphiaand wanted something more and it was interesting like that seems to be acommon theme of a lot of your guests. I got a little bit of a taste of it. Mygrandfather was the number one life insurance seller at prudential fromafter World War. Two up until the early s then had a spectacular career,running team and an office there and did very, very well, and I went likewow. I want to do that job. At the same time, I and we can have a longerconversation about nature versus nurture at some other point, but I lovetechnology to my grandparents got me a trash Ady, a trsa computer when I wasprobably in the second or third grade, and I started to learn to code on thatand that's how I got the technology bite when I was in high school. I sawoffice equipment and I was really good at that. I would go door to door andjust knock on people's doors and say: Hey: Do you want to cash er, dusturb d?You need a copy or a fax machine as it comes out of my mouth, I'm reallydating myself, and I did very well at...

...that as a kind of parttime job and thenin college I took a job selling home improvement, so I would drive aroundand knock on doors in residential neighborhoods and try to convincepeople to put a new roof on their house or to put new sihting on their home,and I got to tell you I was absolutely horrible at that job. I got fired inabout six months. Well, I one thing is that you've been working the whole time.I mean that I'm always something I t S. I just have a lot of respect for peoplethat I mean it sounds like you've been grinding it out, even when you were inschool for a Longo Yeah you have to so after I got fire from that. I took ajob where I was doing upself or informercial. So I win. You would orderlike a Yousee, an informertial on television and you call the phonenumber. I was the guy that was entwering the phone and I would eithersell you additional packages of boaty supplies or I would sell you insuranceon your treadmill or whatever it might be, like whatever the script said tosell- and I did well at that and then my living situation changed a littlebit and I needed to get an apartment on my own and that job wasn't paying thebills, and I accidentally took a job selling software and I was working fora software reseller in Philadelphia and did very very well there and a companycalled Borland who, at the time it was based in Santa Cruz and was the thirdor fourth largest software company. The world called me up and said. We have ajob for you in California. If you wanted at yours and I jumped on a planeand went to California and never went back, and I worked there for about fouryears and started to get a little bit AF taste for management, where the youthey would make me a team lead. And then I ran a team of five insidesellers and then went to work for Webex. I was the third salesperson hired atWebex back one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine, and still have a copyof like my original active touch before they were even Webx paycheck. That wasa great run for us. We grew that team very well and went through the IPOthere, and I ran a team of about twenty people. I went to her for a companycalled starfish. The An starfish made a a modem for motorolo phones. We soldthat company to Moto Rola and after I took some time off, I went to work aoat the time. Yeho had an enterprise sales team and I went to run aWestcoast team for Yahoo Enterprise and immediately after me, joining the CEOand Coo of Yahoo came to us and said we shouldn't be in the enterprise softwarebusiness. This was a bad idea. We're going to shut this biusiness down. Iliked working at Yaho was a great experience and I stayed there for aboutfive years after that and was really just hustling around trying to find anyjob that I could find at Yahoo. So I went from henterprise sales. I was oneon of the product managers for Yahoo Messenger I got. Ai Was CARROL BARCS tose. You at that point way before Carol way before go. So it was right when Ijoined right when Terry Sembel joined Oh wow, yeah Li e, Terry Senmel joinedand then den Rosenswey joined, and then me I was thirding that lineup and theyprobably still culdn't pick me out of a line up very some was like the firstbig celebrity CEO that they hired when they were sort of GN figure out. Whatchapter two wis going to be is, if I'm not mistaken, exactly- and I think thatTerry Terry Rentento, like a lot of weird political things, that he wastrying to turn it into more of a media company versus a search company, and Ithink it was hard for him to get a lot of the people in Sunny Vail to makethat to make that shift. Yeah, I understand so, but it was cool like Ifelt like I was getting an NBA because I got to do sales like I had to do productmanagement and I got to do ad sales, and I my last job there was on the MNAteam, where I got to help do anmana integration with a lot of the like oldweb to Dido companies. That now, when I look around and I kind of see Instagram,I'm like well that was sort of flicker before it was instagram and I looktwitter and that could have been delicious should have been twitter andall these companies that we were. You know, I think Lo Yahoo is just ahead ofthe curve there, but I learned a ton and it was a great experience and thenI joined a company called Badgeville and helped the team. There grow therevenue banagefill moving to London, Iran, the European operations. Therecame back to the US and Mark Shuster and Jason Limpkinintroduced me to a really cool company in La called retension science, where Iran their sales, marketing and customer success for a year, and it sounds alittle bit spoiled, but my family just didn't like living in Santa Monica. Itwas ut the bother. You know the Bay Areais home for us and for my kids,their friends would fly down or they would fly up on the weekends and theneverybody would disappear. And then you kind of go into this other weird life,and it was just close enough to taste it. But it was far enough out of reachthat ye didn't have like the normal life that we had back in the bay area.So we moved back to the bay area a year later and lived on the same street thatwe lived on before we moved to London, RTHAT's awesome and then three yearsago I joined dynamic signal and it's exciting, because I really do believethat we're changing the way that large organizations can communicate with thevast majority of their employees, who traditionally they've had tocommunicate with the science in the breakroom or paper newsletters, and oneof the thingsthas really exciting about this company is, for the most part,every customer that we have you've heard of right. It's not a kind ofsmaller SASS company, that's selling to...

...online retailers that may or may not bearound in a couple of years: dynamic, signols customers, JP Morgan Chase orlarge logistics, company or Oracle or Sisco, or these companies just aren'tgoing to go out of business anytime in the near future, which kind F of givesan extra layer of safeetudity overall organization yeah. And do you sell toHR t who you selling to so I'm going to a meeting on Monday at a large retailer,they've thirty people coming to this presentation and it's people rangingfrom communications, so the coms people tend to be the main driver of this. ButHR is one of them legal oes. Of course, one of them because communicating toourly workers is often termes of tricky thing. From a llegal standpoint, it'swe've got a COO, that's coming to the meeting so becase, that's the personwho really cares. How do we communicate out to all these thirty five thosandemployees? We've got a lot of it. People who are coming. We've got someof the field managers so like a region like a district vice president type ofrole, so the wedge tends to be communications or HR, but then it veryquickly spreads out from there yeah and is the Roi, the employee pretention andplay engagement, leading to greater productivity. In addition to probablylike Hey, you'r regulatory, like you're legally required to provide. You knowthis helps wit fi regulatory, legal requirements round employment, yeah,you're hired, but you've nailed. It there you go so what would it do? If Icould change? You know: employee engagement, five percent across ahundred thousand workforce. This is why it's you know a million bucks yer,whatever yeah, you know, I mean it's. We had a client recently who told usthat, for every point increase in their employee net promoter score, they see ahalf a percent increase in topline revenue. Oh my that I mean that's athat's a great stat for the CHRO or chief people, officer, yea, it's or theCEO or the COO nd, and I think that people, especially in this day and age,where communications amongst your friends, an Themont, your peers andamongst the news like you're, getting so much information that people justexpect a level of transparency that I think a lot of companies don't givetheir employees yet, but we're seeing now that a lot of companies want to beable to do that n. They want to share what's going on and they just haven'thad the ability to do that in the past yeah. It makes a lot of sense. Well.Thank you. For that background. You know. I have a couple questionsspecifically related to the background. One of them is you've been doing this awhile, and not only have you been doing it a while, but you've had consistentsuccess. You Know Webbacks IPO starfish was acquired by Motorola. You were partof Yahoo, so my question is: What keeps you motivated like what keeps you firedup to jump back in and do this thing again of building sales teams, and youknow hitting a revenue number and the grind of it like? What is it about thispat? Is it the career like what are the things that are driving you every dayboth of my parents are entrepreneurs. My Mom ran the office supply store thatI worked for in high school. My Dad is a machinist and toolmaker, and you I'vealways grown up building things. My build furniture is a hobby at my house,so I love the idea of taking nothing and building it into something, and Ithink that the opportunity now a dynamic signal when I joined it wasfive people, and now it's thirty five like now, I'm looking at okay, like howdo I continue to take this piece of clay that we've molded into the halfshape that I wanted to be, and I feel like there's still a lot of moldingleft to do here. I just love building things and fixing things and and that'sjust kind of something, that's Im, ydna yeah. No, I mean it's a very common,it's very human. I mean it's basically, it's a long winded way of me saying metoo yeah the feeling of having nothing exist and then something exist, whetherit's a process or client or a team just can't be beat O it's so fun. Youmentioned nature versus nurture, I mean do you, I guess, when you're thinkingabout the elements of your personality, that you think have led you to besuccessful and or conveying that out to the rest of the community. What do youthink are the most important skills or qualities an an exceptional salesperson?I would say, empathy is number one. Curiosity is certainly number two, thenyou take that empathy and you take that curiosity and you start to transitionthat into okay. Well, how can I help solve a problem for somebody? Then, ofcourse like just the ability to ask for money. I think is number four, but Ireally do think like if you are a curious person and you ask smartquestions and you can be empathetic and put yourself in somebody else's shoes,but I think those two things go a long way and it's one of the things I oftencoach, younger sellers, whether they're on my team or elsewhere. Is thesepeople have a lot of stuff going on in their lives and it's you know they're,not just sitting around going like. Oh, you know what I got to get on thisdynamic signal contract. Let me just run this all over the place and sign itlike. These are large companies and large companies have big problems, andI try to coach people like if you work for a company that has a hundredthousand people in it think about a town that has a hundred thousand peoplet and the company probably has the same...

...problems and your head of coms and yourhead of HR are probably dealing with bigger things like that. So you knowright now: We've got Hurricane Florence coming into South Carolina, and I wantmy rip in the southwest to do well this quarter, but it would be a very selfishthing to just call that person up and go hey before you guys evacuate. Canyou hit that docky sin, but for me I mean you could do it on your phone. So,on the come on I mean I understand that yourtons flooded right and I think it's so important to be able to put yourself inthe shoes of the people that you're working with really understand whatmatters to them. And how can you make them successful if they want to besuccessful and if they don't want to be successful? Okay, what's the othermotivator for you? Is it to not get yelled at by your boss, or is it too,if you hit this project you're going to get this bonus out of it or there's apromotion out of it or whatever you know whatever? It might be, just reallyunderstanding that and trying to really grasp what it is. That's important tothat person, and then you know, keep digging into that and asking morequestions about it and helping to understand. What's going on there, Ithink intellectual curiosity, it's the fundamental yeah, the root ofeverything in many ways, and then your question like to your o: Is it nature,O versus nurture, it's probably nurture. I was very lucky again. I mygrandparents were very affluent and kind of took me around all over thenortheast, an ceaboard to see museums and to see orchestras and C symponi. SoI got to experience that kind of lifestyle, so I got very comfortabledealing with people there. I had my parents who were the builder, so I gotto experience that and and just kind of the melding of those two things kind ofthat curiosity and and that ability to build Tis kind of led to where I amTeday yeah. Those experiences, those formative experiences for whatever thereason that you got to experience som, whether our grandparents are Affu inEtceeras, they're, so important when you're young one of the things ort ofthe reason we moved to we moved to London, I wanted to be able to givethat experience O to my kids. Did you like London? Oh my God, I move back inart beat I absolutely love it. What's the difference not to go off on toomuch of a tangent, but what's the difference is the key difference? Iswhen you're building sales team, specifically that you notice betweenLondon and the states Europeans are less poshy is the big one. I think thatthere is a European culture s a little bit morepassive. I was in Spain once and the person I was talking to said You ow,you, Americans are crazy. You work so hard during the best parts of your lifeonly so that you have a little bit of money to not be able to spend it in thelater parts of your life, and I was really- and I was like okay- that sumsup the European experience pretty well they're, just not as driven by my experience is there there's lessquarterly pressure, there's less kind of pressure to how people there's justoverall, like less like things will happen when they happen versus like howdo I kind of continue to push and drive this thing as hard as I possibly canyeah I've? Now I mean we've got offices in London with my company and I guessour co just moved from London to New York, and he said you know I like NewYork, it's more transactional. People like to do deals here. Yeah, which is,I think, is interesting. One of the things that you we sort of we weretalking about offlying, you said no salesperson has ever had a bad call.Tell me what you mean by that? Oh, it's that's just something thatI've always found funny like if, as a sales manager, when you ask somebodyabout you know they always come rushing into your office and they're like Ohhey, I just had the best call with so and so and you're like well. Well, whywas it a good calleg's like oh well, we talked about their kids and our kidsplay soccer together and we talked about the forty nine ears and what'sgoing on there and we just like we, we just it was justsuch a good call a'm like well like. Are they going to give us some money orwhat's going to happen next or oh? I haven't figured that out Yeth, buttherthey're really committed to the they're so committed to doing thisproject, and I just like it got to the point where I said. I don't want tohear about your good calls anymore. Unless there's like a clearly definablenext step action item to it, you guys are dinimic. Simboit sounds like and anenterprice sale. So do you use a methodology like is ther process orusing medic walk us through? Like you know, your sales cycles just give us anoverview of like how you progress a deal through your stages at dynamicsignal. The average deal sizes about a hundred fifty thosand dollars a year.Aoror we've got half a dozen or so clients that are paying us well over amillion and bunch that are paying is under that hundred and fifty thousarddollar mark. But that's kind of the number our average sale cycle from likea really qualified opportucity to close is about six months. You know,sometimes they last a year year and a half, and sometimes they go rualelreally quickly, and you know again, there's lots of different forces thatin impact that we do use medic, we were running a sales methodology that calledskip Miller created for us and it was a great model. And then we changed ourbusiness a little bit and changed our messaging a little bit. So we'vecontinued to kind of tweak and adjust things in terms of what the processlooks like. I don't think it's too much different than any other sance process,but we're constantly looking at okay.

What are the best sellers on the teamdoing and how do we make that a lot more repeatable and then can we injectthat into a process? So one of the things one of my head of f enterprisediscoverd when he got here he just he immediately picked on some picked up onsomething that should have been very evident to the rest of us, and that is, if you don't have a senior leader,ceocoo svp, of something in a meeting by about your third meeting. That feelsnever going to happen. Essentially, so we went you're a hundred percent right.We looked at all the data around and we said. Okay, you have to have thatsenior leader, INA call or ANA meeting by the third conversation else.Otherwise we're just kind of spinning our wheels on this opportunity andlet's push it back to the SDR team and have them nurture that. So that's anexample of that. But it's let's get the opportunity from the SDR: Let's qualifyit, let's qualifyd some more, let's figure out afor the right selection andif we are the right selection, let's go through the legal process. We're notdoing brain surgery or lunch missiles or anything here. It's Y we're shewlingsoftware and it's it seems like it has been more or less the same process ofselling anything with minor tweeks. You know for the existence of time, yeah,no you're right the the benefit of again to your point, t whatever youcall it whether it's medick o my friend Dave Govan. They call it at Tachimedical. I think we're going to do something at Behav ox called Med, PicarGun, Medicald, boxave, medic, SOx Shit. That's that when I used a couple ofjobs ago, what is the FO? What does the Fox stand for? The Fox is just the Fox.Is the person that's going to come out of your deal at the end and bite you inthe ass and till your feel TAT's? That is probably the CO, the CEO or co, orsomething well or could be like the Li one of the things that, like our Fox,an our deal, tends to be it. So we recognize hey if it always has vidopower, so get it involved in your deals earlier, like let's not go through anine month, Hel cycle only to get to the end and have the it guy go. Well,you never ticked a bunch of boxes for this and we don't approve it and you'vegot this other thing, that's kind of like that and it blows everything up.So, let's just let's call that guy out early and make sure we can do something.Ere Yeah I mean the benefit of the whatever the acronym is: It's just a todo list for the six person hundred Percento go out and answer thisquestion go out and answer that question and thoare the questions weknow need to be answered. So one question: I have you're running a bigteam. It's growing quickly when you think about success or failure in yourrole. whate are the biggest drivers, so obviously revenue and as we grow andcontinue to scale the organization, the type of revenue becomes a lot moreimportant to me into the organization. As an example, we've noticed thataccounts that are under a certain dollar threshold, Havig much higherpropensity to turn and probably the beginning of two thousand and nineteenwe're just going to put the foot down and just say anything that is belowthis threshold. We're just not going to do that deal so either keep your dealabove that or walk away from it as fast as possible. The time to value on aparticular deal, so is the cack right is the LTV right? Can we get this donefaster, like that? Whole thing is like: How do we look at overall clinetsuccess and making sure that you know anybody can go get a hundred thousanddollars, but can you get a hundred thousand dollars that turns into threehundred? That turns into a million over the course of three years, and thatsays I started thinking about the deals that we're doing today. That's reallywhat I want to that's really what I'm starting to look at and how I'm measureon that and then the other ones, areround retention of employees are wedoing the right development of the employees are be giving them the righttraining. Are we putting them on the right career forjectory? I always liketo understand not so much. What does your next job look like? But what doesyour next next job look like and how do we make sure we're putting every youknow the people on the right path to get to that next next step in theircareer? I'm gonnt ask you a highly tactical question: Okybecause you'vedone this. So when you think about your dashboards, you know when you thinkabout the readouts in the metrics or refreshing every day, so obviously KACto LTV like what are the five or ten give us some metrics that you'relooking at on a very regular basis to give you overall, you know obviouslyyou're looking at revenue, but what else ar you looking at. So what I'mlooking at is more, and this is super tactical. I'mreally looking at overall activity, so these are the kind of deals. Agaipeople get distracted. They you know not. Everybody has a hurricane comingthrough, but they've got their own metaphorical hurricane, that's comingthrough their office, so I'm constantly looking at activity and are peoplestaying on top of these deals and I feel like if somebody shows up to yourhouse with a big bag of money and says hey. I want to give this to you. Sandlike you, should be able to take that. But if somebody says hey, you know, ifyou jump through some of these hoops, there might be a big bag of money atthe end of it. I want you to kind of continue to probe that so I'm lookingat when was the last activity Wenes the next stamp? What was that last activity?Look like? Are we getting to the IP person R? Are we getting to a sea level?person like how big is is the next...

...weating how many people are involved inthese conversations? All of those things tend to lean towards a betterdel for the company. If I talk to a seller- and they say I've got thishundred D- Fifty Housan dollar deal, but I've only talked to oe personinside of the organization, I'm going to be really skeptical about thereality of that deal, whereas I talk to a different show- and this say I've gotthis three hundred Hosan dollar deal and I've talked to four people in theHR team, and we've got five people from coms and I've met the CEO and the COOof the organization and it his blessed it and we've got y twelve or fifteenpeople who are involved in making this a success. That's going to be a gooddeal for us, probably not unlike a lot of sat companies like the churn when ithappens, oftentimes tends to happen because the champion who actuallybought the software got fired. So it's really important that we've got morethan just Jon Communications or Sally, and it is our single point of failurethere that we've got a good army of people who are there supporting thisprogram. If you let's say Youseller has a really good meeting for people, theysay, let's Hep the next meeting, but calendars don't line up it's threeweeks from now. Are you saying well between now and three weeks from now,let's figure out a way to sort of nurture all those differentrelationships and drop them some value and maybe get you know. How are youmaintaining the aacity one, one hundred percent one, not one hundred percent, they haveto stay on those things and it is hard to get for senior level people fromfour different departments in the room. At the same time, especially you we'rejust coming off of summer, both trying to schedule four people in the sameroom in Europe at the same time is damn near impossible. So you know thatnurture part of it is so critical and it's you know, tha. The nursing is alittle bit different for each role like it is going to get nurtured a littledifferently than H, Gar, tncoms and an executive, but we absololutely want tostay on all of those people during the time yeah. I agree. So it feels like alot of the emphasis very traditionally is, on sort of you know, value baseselling, but you were sort of mentioning that you know you thinkproposals are a waste of time. You don't want to demotorily walk usthrough a little bit of your thinking around how to make sure that I guessthere's the right level of equality, perhaps between you and the prospect oror what the motivation is for. You know for not sending proposals. For example,I have a lot of crazy beliefs that a lot of people don't necessarily agreewith, but I oftentimes all beliefs are crazy. Obviously, obviously we want to hearthem now. SOMY feeling on proposals is that mosttime when you tell somebody a number they're going to disappear, it's veryrare that p you go. You know, hey sem me, prepose on I spend an hour puttingtogether like a fancy document, and I send it over to you and then, like you,call me immediately and you're, like, oh, my God, Hey Sam, I'm so ready tobuy this thing. I sort of feel like, rather than sending a proposal likewhen you're ready, I'm just going to put together a contract and send thatover to you- and you know, the cost of this is twelve sanddollars a month andif you want to buy it great, let's we'rk, going to contract. If you don'twant to buy it, you need to go budget. It go writ down twelvesand dollars on apost it, but I don't want to spend lots and lots of time on something. That'sjust going to end up in the Ben and I get you and oftentimes. I do hear alotther, another belief, weird belief, hat you. I think that sales people tend touse proposals as they crutch when they haven't sold the value and if youhaven't, sold the value into anything like your propos or just going to getlooked at as a number. But if I can convince you that my solution willgenerate ten million dollars a year in savings and you're completely boughtinto that ten million dollars. As long as my proposal doesn't say, more thanten million dollars on it, you're probably going to you- will likely buythat because you're going to get a machine that when you put a dollar inthe top end, ten dollar falls at the bottom. An people like aure too quickto rush to a proposal without figuring out that value, maybe that's a betterway of articulating it. Well, I don't think it's that controversial, or atleast you know, okay yeah, I mean I guess I agree with you and I've seenexactly your point. Soels people like it because it's work so it feels likeI'm doing something and it helps me, but it doesn't really help. So whatwould you say when somebody says okay, Scottt's been great, you know this isgreat. Just send me a proposal. I actually say I don't semmreposals andI realize, like that's a little bit to stand off fish. What I say is I look. Isaid contracts, I'm happy to send a contract to you and if you know you cansign and send it back to me, but I also do Wel we're not ready for a contractyeah, okay, which is which I appreciate Salm, and I wouldn't expect that on thefirst call. That would be a weird thing if you were ready to buy something, butI think like if you're looking for a number to put into a budget, I think,like you, can write down twelve sand. Dolars a month is probably a good rangefor a company of your size. Oh well, that's actually there, so you didprovide at least you answer the question without giving too much. Iguess one of the guys on my team actually answers the question in maybethe best way I've ever heard, and he does it so consistently so well, he'll,say typically for your company, your size, it's about a hundred and fiftythousen dollars a year. Plus your mine is fifty percent. That's awesome. It's such a great way to provide aballpark without providing anything of...

...that's really measurable or accountableright. It's a little bit of like just please fuck off for now, but also like, and you do this at yourcompany like if somebody is asking for a number that quickly like they're,clearly a commodity buyer that doesn't appreciate value and they should justgo to the low price leader of whatever it is industry that you're selling intoand by that, because theyre, if they're so keen on. How much does this costearly on in the relationship? They're just not going to care, whatever valuethat you do and any sales process that you go through is likely going to be awaste of time, because it's so hard to convert a commodity buyer to a value.BUYER YOU'RE! Absolutely right! I mean we had the situation here a coupleweeks ago, where you know sort of like a tire, kicking exploration and theysaid, send us over your pricing and I didn't want to do it. But I also Ididn't consider it a sale cycle or an opportunity. But I also was thinkingthe back of my mind. Well, if they ever do get around to buying it would benice if they had some information, but we ended up not sending them thepricing information. As the answer the question, and I think that there's waysthat you can tease it a little bit to figure out, are they a commodity buyer?Are they a value buyer just by asking about like what other things have youpurchased and what is the value that you're getting out of that? And how doyou see people using that insideof, your organization, and you can start totease that out and figure out if their avalue or commodity buyer and if you're,trying to build, lay value BAS sales process? Youshould just ignore all of the commodity buyers and weed them out as fast aspossible, because otherwise it's going to o all of that stuff that we'ere justtalking about with time to value and cack and LTV that ut kind ofcontinuously driven down, and I think, like there's a space in the SASS marketfor a second place value leader, like not everybody, buy sales force. There'speople that buy the low price leader in crm they're, not a bad company likethey're, not sales for us but they're out there, yeah, no you're! Absolutelyright! I mean to your point one of the biggest things people say aboutineffective or bad sales practices is holding on to opportunities that youknow you're going to lose way too long, Yep, probably directly related to whatyou're talking about. I did a talk recently called Killier Darlings, whichis a famous literary expression of about writers, fall in love with thecharacter they fall in love with a sentence or a paragraph that they'vewritten, but it's not a hundred percent relevant to the overall message of thestory that you're trying to tell so it's hard for a writer to kill thatcharacter off. Similarly to Seles people like I built that relationshipwith that person and I've talked to hem about their kids, soccer game and iavehad so many great calls with them. But it's never going to turn in anything,and we just have to be honest with ourselves and kill these things.Absolutely e've got a few. More minutes. Walk US quickly through the list ofthings that you believe that you believe others don't believe, because Ithink it's a great list. I don't think the demo cell. I think too often salespeople are like, Oh hey, they want to demo. Let me show you everything thatwe can possibly do under the sun and they go through every like bell andwhistle and knob inside of their experience, and they try to showeverything off and really what most people want to do is have a businessconversation again. Most value buyers want to have a value convversation, butthey want some proof that what you're selling actually works- and I thinkthat you can show that in three to five minutes and you don't need to showeverything at some point. You need to show everything to somebody who isusing it, but even in like most cases, you don't need to show everythingeverything and I see too often sales people that what should be a seven oreight minute demo turns into a forty or fifty minute. Demout and people justget forward of that shit so be number one. I believe that you can't sell overemail. I think emails too easy to ignore people get two hundred emails aday and it's impossible to get through all of them a with any kind ofreasonable amount of time. Just pick up the phone and call these people like ifyou've got a good relationship that you want to sell to them, don't list yourwhole pitch and like a long S, email like most people, aren't going to readyour two thousand word email that you're putting together for them. Sojust pick up the phone and call them and have a conversation, and too oftenI see like oh I'm, going to I'll give this pitch over email like no just justpick up the phone and call them like. You have a relationship with thesepeople and they want to talk to you. If they really want to buy software, theywill answer the phone. An they'll call you back when they see your number. Ithink that this one might be my team's going to be pissed, but I think thatmost people can push harder. I talk to some of the team at Gong yesterday andI think that they've got a great leader in Ryan over there and a good team, butone of the things one of the stants that they have is that it used to takesix or seven contacts to get somebody on the phone or to connect withsomebody, and now it takes fourteen or fifteen, and that's a doubling of thatin what Lesshan a deccate or so so I do think like people can push a little bitharder and it's amazing like when you just say: Hey: can you help me out orhow you can? I ask a favore of you or hey culd. You do this for me like whenyou ask it like that, like it is Poche, but it's not alligerent and I feel likeif people are getting kicked out of one client for quarter they're pushingabout the right amount if they're getting kicked out of more than oneclient rerquarter er they're pushing way too hard. That is a great stat Ye.That's the price of admission for this podcast right there, all right! Hon! Wego!...

The last last few questions- and thishas been awesome- I've got a super tactical one that I did not prepby for.Okay, your policy unlinked in requests. Are you a, I need to know everybodyperson specifically, and I manage a tight network. How do you viewconnecting with people on Linkedon? I tend to fall into that category and myone brush with s celebrity early on when he foundod the company. I spentsome time with Red Hoffman. He came over to Yaoo to talk to us about whyLingctoln is important in why a corporate social network or businesssocial network is important, and somebody asked him that same question.He said I only accept invitations from people whom I know and that I've workedwith in the past. I've tried hard to maintain that policy, but I do have alot of Lumpon people fair enough. I'm the opposite. I accept all requests andI know very few of the people in my link in network atly, but it's hardbecause then then, when somebody's like, Oh hey, Sam, i Sol that you wereconnected to Scott. Can you make an introduction there and you're like w? Idon't really know Scott that well so, or do you just like blindly send themoff like? I know people that do that too. I get like the Hay Cott you and Imet it. Some conference that you spoke at in some weird place a million yearsago, and I introduce you to my friend an Joe it's like that's weird. I don'tget that request as often as I think as I would think that I would o. But if Ido get it no I say no, I don't really. You know. I know that I laugh and I say,listen. I know they're a first crodection, but I have no idea who thatperson is Andi'm. Sorry to tell you what we liketo do is sort of like at the end is sort of pay it forward a little bit andthat's where we yeah ask you know who are the people that have inspired youwho are some of your favorite vpzof sales or CMOS or other great leadersthat you think we should know about. So I got a couple so Ryan Longfeld Ho. Ijust mentioned it Gong I've gotten to know him recently he's a super. Sharpguy really seems to know his stuff and would be a good conversation, Abe Smith,who's, the CRRO itdecision great Guy Riony Zoos, who is the, I think, he'sstill the Siero at ring central or VBOF ORD wide sales. I'm not sure what hisexact title is Super Stellar Guy Greg Brown is one of the best VPS of sales.I've ever worked with from Black Hawk Kevin gather done at Zip recruiter ifyou've ever workd with him and that guy's that guy's phenomenan notill othat's awesome and then any like great books. If we want to, I think at somepoint I'm going to put together like the salesacker podcast reading list,because we get so many great recommendations, but what are some ofthe books that have really inspired you or that you're just reading recently,that you think we should pick up so there's a couple so one that I gotintroduced to maybe a decade ago from a friend of mine. She recommended thisbook because it was all about preparation and it's something that I'mreally passionate about whenever you're on a call or an interview like this oryou're, going to give a talk or anything like that. Preparation is socritical and she turned me on to this book called shadow divers, which I tryto read every probably every two years, but it is about a group of divers DPSdivers who find a German new boat off the coast of New Jersey, and this is atrue story. I think they're making a movie about it now. But these guys divedown and it's most of the book, Be Goin. These sixty minute dies, but they spendweeks and weeks and weeks preparing for this. Sixty minute die because they're,two hundred and fifty feet below water. Everything is so critical and you haveto be so careful and so perfect about everything that it's a really goodinsight. And what I glean from the book was how important preparation is, whenyou have a big event that you've got to go to whether that's a big client pitchor whether I'm giving a talk and I'm going to be on stage somewhere or I'vejust got a meeting with my boss to go, prepare for a board meeting like justhow important that preparation is to be successful great book. I love thatthat's awesome and it has nothing to do with sales at all. It's just like thisfascinating story about these guys that are diving, looking for sunk entreasure, because there's a lot of old ships off the coast of New Jersey andthey find this German Yeu boat, that you know in oe thousand nine hundredand forty four, whatever got very close to the new jer shore that you can divedown to it pitch anything by Oran. Claff, I think, is a great book. It'sone that I listen to on a pretty regular basis. I like influenced byRobert Caledini. I think it's one of the better books in terms of is thathow you pronounce his name, Ihave, no idea. I love that. I hope that that's Ibeen Y IOP, it is too, but I have no idea. I feel like that's the right way,I'm which crazy is. I have it on audio book and I it's one of those books. Iprobably listen to every six months or so because it's a pretty quick reed andyou can do it in a week of commuting or I can do in a week of commuting and hesays it, and I still don't now to say it. Fantastic JDACK, Troud's power ofsimplicity is just like all it's all about. Just like how can you? How can you take stuff out of whateveryou're doing to make it more simple for the audience, and it's really justabout kind of dumping it down just so. You have the most important messagethere right. If it takes twenty words to say, can you say inten if it takesfive sides, can you do it in three like just how do you just break all thatstuff out to get to the really...

...important stuff? When I do books, I tryto do a business related book, a fiction related book in a nonfictionrelated book. In sort of that cycle, I thought bad blood was awesome. It wasawesome, it's crazy. It's totally crazy right, it's crazy! What's the guy's name sunny, you knowthe yeah friend or whatever. Just I don't know, mants one of the things that's just shockingabout the world is how far liars can get. Hopefully they're caught at somepoint, but just you can go a long way because people are generally gullible.Well, the crazy thing to me not only that but like what did those peopletalk about when they got home at night, likethey had a thousand employees there,like you go home to your wife or your husband, and they asked you like. Whatdid you do it work today, like like D, You just lie like I did. They all lieabout it or did they think they were working on something that actuallyworked or that's what I didn't understand about the whole thing. Well,one of her strategies was to keep it so compartmentalized that you never gotthe Justalt, so you thought well, maybe my thing is, you know challenging, butmaybe the other teams are, you know working effectively or something likethat, so so nuts yeah Scott, I'm unfortunately I feel like we could talkfor a while, but we're at the end of our time together. So the last thing wewant to do is because dynamic signal is growing. You guys are hiring what isthe best way. You have account executives that are listening to thisright now, YEP, so w. can they email you? How should they get in touch withyou to the point of Likedin? What's your preferred mechanism for outrage,email, Scottet, dynamic, signalcom twitter is always a good one. To get ahold of me, I'm just at Schnars, Sch, N AARS Linkein is fine, although Iprobably won't accept the the request I'll startainto reply to the enmail.THAT'S PRETTY MUCH! Those are the best ways, I guess tit's fantastic it'Sgott.Thank you very much, congrats on all the success at dynamic signal and overthe course o the career. Thanks for all the book recommendations- and it'sreally great chatting with you and if you're ever in New York drop me aline,would love to say m m appreciate the time that I thank you. Thank you Hay folks. It's Sam Jacobs, founder ofthe New York revenue, collective and the host of your favorite podcast, theSal sacker podcast, and this is Sam's corner. We talked about a bunch ofdifferent things with Scotch snars. I really enjoyed speaking with them andhere's a couple kidbits, the main one. I would encourage everybody's wort tof,focusing on hoing in on. U The act of sales is not the act of taking ordersand it is not the act of providing information requested in sort of a oneway, unit directional relationship. It's not send me a proposal. Okay,here's a proposal. What's the price, HERE'S THE PRICE RIGHT! It is the actof discovering whether the prospects pain, whether their interests andpriorities are aligned with the value that your solution can create and theway that you do, that is by having an engaged business conversation. When youask lots of questions and it needs to be an equal conversation- you're notjust they may view you as a service provider or a vendor, but that's nothow you should view it. You should view it as an interaction of equals. Johnberrels has this thing where he has a gift to get score card. Scott talkedabout proposals or a waste of time. Don't give them full pricing when theyask for it. But the context is you need to qualify their interest around valuebefore you talk about the specifics of the purchasing cycle and the peoplethat are just hey, you know it's the first phone call. What's the price sendme a price semi proposal, hey you're, not going to send me proposal. Io KnowYour problem is I'll, just go to the next fender. Those people are probablynot going to be valuable buyers anyway, so you have to qualify them out of thepipeline and holding on to those people is, is often the mark and the hallmark ofan ineffective salesperson. So when someone says send me a proposal, take astep back and say: Hey I'd, love to send you proposal, but tell me aboutthe process for typically buying things. Let's confirm that you're interested-and maybe let's have a conversation with a few other folks to just becareful about how much you information you give away and try to have a morestructured discovery process that creates a relationship of equals. Sothat's been my one more revolatory insight from your favorite person, SamJacobs, but let's also think our sponsors. So this episode, as always,was brought you by two sponsors. That's air call your advanced call centersoftware, complete business phone and contact center, one hundred percentnatively integrated into any serm and outreach a customer engagement platformthat helps efficiently and effectively engaged prospects to drive morepipeline and close more deals now to check out the show, notes, see upcomingguests and play more episodes from our incredible line. Up of SALS leaders,visit sales, hackercom and head to the PODCAST TAB. You will find our podcaston itunes to Google play and if you enjoyed this episode, as I see manypeople doing, please share with your peers on Linkedon, twitter or elsewhere.If you want to get in touch with me, you can find me and twitter at Sam FJacobs, we're heading into election season so or we're in election seasonagain politics, the the views ar my own.

Don't at me, if you don't like mypolitics, I'm sorry and then Linkein or keep it professional and LinkedonLinconcom in Sah, Sam f Jacobs, reach out to me. Thank you so much for allthe support and this has been Sam's corner. Thank you. So much forlistening.

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