The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

32. Why Curiosity and Passion are Superpowers for Sales Leaders w/ Scott Schnaars

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This week on the Sales Hacker podcast, we speak to sales veteran, executive, and leader, Scott Schnaars. Scott has a long background in sales and has experienced the highs and lows of a long career selling different products. Scott has a great attitude on success and is one of the top leaders in SaaS, now overseeing global sales at Dynamic Signal.

One, two, one, three, three. Fo Hey everybody, welcome to the sales hacker podcast. Itis your host, Sam Jacobs. I am the founder of the New Yorkrevenue collective. I guess we're calling at the revenue collective or at large now, because we've got London and we're opening Denver soon, so a bunch morecities to come. I'm also the chief revenue officer to place called behave oxand super excited for today's episode. Today's episode features Scotch Shnars. He's svpof worldwide sales at dynamic signal. He's a talented and experienced sales executive andwe had a great conversation. Now, first I also want to thank oursponsors. are wonderful sponsors. So the first is are call. At thispoint I hope you know air calls a phone system designed for the modern salesteam, not the antiquated sales team. The modern sales team. Are Callseamlessly integrates into your crm, eliminating data entry for your reps and giving you, the manager, greater visibility into your team's performance through advanced reporting. Youcan also add new lines in minutes and use incall coaching to reduce ramp timefor your new reps. the website is air called out io forward sales hackerare called dot io forward slash sales hacker. Our second sponsor is outreach. That'soutreached at IO, the leading sales engagement platform. Outreach triples the productivityof sales teams and empowers them to drive predictable and measurable Revenue Growth, whichis the kind of growth that we all want. They do that by prioritizingthe right activities, scale ailing customer engagement with intelligent automation, and they alsomake teams more effective while improving visibility into what really drives results. So goover to outreach DOO forward sales haacker to see how thousands of customers, includingcloud era, glass door, Pandora and Zillo, rely on outreach to deliverhigher revenue per sales Rep. finally, want to thank a couple of fansthat have been talking about the podcast on Linkedin, and I'm sure I'm forgettinga few, but a couple people. First, J Cronin, who reallygot a lot of value out of the John Barrows episode. Thank you,Jay. Matt Poe reached out to me. Robert Doyle reached out to me andsaid Hey, great podcast, and then James Brett just posted about thetodd capony episode. Just as of today, it's September fourteen. You're probably listeningto this in late October, so you're traveling back in time with meright now. But James, thank you very much, and thanks to todd. Todd's got a new book if you haven't bought it, it's called thetransparency sale. It came out October ninth. Make sure you get one and makesure you listen to the episode because he's Great. And without further ado, let us listen to my interview with Scotch schnars on the salesaccer podcast.Hey everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome back to the sales hacker podcast.Incredibly excited today to have as my guests Scott Schnars, who is STP ofworldwide sales at dynamic signal. Scott's a long time veteran of the sales industryand of startup land and we're going to chat with him about his background,is experiences and all of the ways that he helps build great teams. So, Scott, welcome to the show. Sam, it's great to be herethank you very much. We're excited to have you. So for those let'slet's just you know we do the the baseball car thing at the very topof the show so that we understand your background and a little bit of contacts. So your name is? Did I say your name correctly? By theway, you want absolutely, absolutely. It's like cars and guitars. Theygo cars, guitars and snars. Yep, and your STP worldwide sales at dynamicsignal. Tell us about dynamic signal for those not in the know.Sure. So, dynamic signal is a company that is as Sass Organization,of course. We've been around about eight years and our real focus is onhelping large organizations, think your fortune one thousand, helping them communicate to theirfront line workers, Workforce Communications. One of the things that I think peoplein technology tend to forget is that most employees don't get a laptop and aHoodie and a phone and a nice notebook on their first day of work.Most employees are given maybe a fifteen minute here's what you have to do withyour job, and they go off and they go do it, and theseare the people who actually keep the economy humming. These are people that workin hospitality, they work in manufacturing, they work in healthcare, they workin janitorial services. All of these people are helpful employees to these large organizationsand a lot of ways they make up the entire company. But historically organizationshave had a hard time of communicating with those people and we make a platformthat makes it really easy to communicate to those people on the supercomputer that everybodycarries in their pocket. Wow, and and so how big is the company? From you know what's The revenue R range? You don't have to tellus specific so the company is about three hundred people and I've got about thirtyfive quote of carrying sellers who are doing an enterprise, quote of carrying quota. So I think that the listeners can sort of figure out what the RevenueRange is based on that. Okay, cool. And then a little bitof capital raised or you know, just where are you and your funding stages? As I'm it sounds like, probably pursuing, you know, some IPOevent at some point or something like that. Yeah, from Your Lips to God'sears, as they say. I think that we've raised about a hundredmillion dollars as an organization and most recently,...

...earlier this year, raised about fortyfive million dollars from Cisco, Microsoft, Adam Street and Dutch Telecom. Wow, congratulations. Yeah, thank you. And so let's quickly get a bird'seye view of your organization. I think you mentioned some of the numbers, but walk us through sort of both the sales organization and then the functions. I'm imagining, you know, the traditional str ae but walk us throughall of the different roles that you've got. Yeah, so we have, likeI said, we've got about thirty five, quotea carrying sellers. I'vegot three groups who are in the US or made up of corporate team thatis focusing on any organization between a thousand and five thousand employees. I've gotan enterprise sales team that is focused on any organization between five thousand and abouta hundred thousand employees and the strategic accounts team that's focus on anything with morethan a hundred thousand employees. And then I've got a team based in Londonwhere they have about five quota carrier sellers. There we've got a team of nineor ten solution consultants. So these are the people are helping to designwhat the implementation might look like. They're helping to design and you kind oflaunch and roll out plan and really helping the sellers achieve their quotas. Variousausundry of sales operation, sales enablement people to help the the team to reallyhum and then our str team actually rolls up to our marketing team. We'vegot about fifty SDR, so we're trying to keep it a little bit higherthan the traditional one to one ratio. And when you think about like thecompanies that we sell to, that sort of fortune two thousand or five thousandor global five thousand, whatever you want to call it, and maybe I'mmarketing, strategy really works well in that capacity. So it makes it easierto have the SDR salesperson team really get laser focused on just a handful ofaccounts. That was actually going to be one of my questions. So,and partially this is selfishly because we're sort of figuring out some of the structurehere, behaves. But the enterprise team, when they sell, is it huntersand farmers or it's like, you know, they get the counts.They once they close the account on the first sale, they maintain the relationshipsso that they can continue to expand the account or is it a designation betweennew logos and existing logos? So we're going through a similar kind of transition. I just recently, within the last two or three weeks, hired ourfirst call him a farmer if you will, but I'm excited to have him onboard because now that we're to a point where we have five hundred orso customers, we want our sellers to go out and get new logos.We want them to be focused on the upsell and oftentimes that juggling routine doesn'tquite work out the way that you want it to as a sales manager.So we've hired of one person to come in and really you pick twenty fiveor thirty existing customers and see what they can do with them and really startto drive the revenue those accounts. Yeah, that makes sense. The issue sometimesthat I have is if you're going to spend it depends on your salescycle length, but if for us it's like twelve months, Yep, youknow, and so if you're going to spend a year getting to know somebody, it feels strange for me sometimes to then immediately remove that person, meaningthe salesperson from the equation. I like to continue to sort of try todevelop that relationship, but it's entirely dependent on the sale cycle. I agree, and we're in a similar kind of sale cycle where it's nine to twelvemonths. And when we look at these accounts that are maybe two or threeyears old, in some cases they've just been neglected by the seller that closethem originally, or, you know, maybe not even necessarily neglected, butthe seller is focused on closing a different deal with a different company, orwe've moved one seller out of the organization and given them a new opportunity somewhereelse, and we need to just figure out how do we manage and maintainthese existing customers who are really valuable and I think that there's a strong opportunityto make them more valuable. Yeah, I agree. So let's figure outyour origin story, your humble beginnings. Yeah, where are you from?And you know, the key questions, I think, for a lot ofthe audience, or at least for me, because I'm just interested in this stuff, for because there's no real place to get a degree in sales,a lot of people come from very different educational backgrounds and find their way intosale. So how'd you get into sales and how did you become, youknow, a top executive, part of the executive team and a company that'sprobably going to clear a hundred million and a rr and it's on a greatpath. How did all that happen? So, like a lot of yourguests, Sam I, I come from humble background. I grew up ina very small town outside of Philadelphia and wanted something more and it was interestinglike that seems to be a common theme of a lot of your guests.I got a little bit of a taste of it. My grandfather was thenumber one life insurance seller at prudential from after World War II up until theearly s and had a spectacular career running a team and an office there anddid very, very well, and I went like wow, I want todo that job. At the same time, I love and we can have alonger conversation about nature versus nurtured some other point, but I love technologyto my grandparents got me a trash eighty, a trsaty computer when I was probablyin the second or third grade, and I started to learn to codeon that and that's how I got the technology by when I was in highschool I sold office equipment and I was really good at that. I wouldgo door to door and just knock on people's doors and say, Hey,do you want to cash or a dister and you need a copy or afax machine? And as it comes out of my mouth, I'm really datingmyself. And I did very well at...

...that as a kind of part timejob. And then in college I took a job selling home improvements. Iwould drive around and knock on doors and residential neighborhoods and try to convince peopleto put a new roof on their house or to put a new sighting ontheir home. And I got to tell you, I was absolutely horrible atthat job. I got fired in about six months. Well, and onething is that you've been working the whole time. I mean that I'm alwayssomething. I it's I just have a lot of respect for people that.I mean, it sounds like you've been grinding it out, even when you'rein school, for a long yeah, you have to. So after Igot fired from that, I took a job where I was doing upsell orinfomercials. So I when you would order like a you see an infomercial ontelevision and you call the phone number, I was the guy that was enteringthe phone and I would either sell you additional packages of booty supplies or Iwould sell you insurance on your treadmill, or whatever it might be like,whatever the script said to sell. And I did well at that. Andthen my living situation changed a little bit and I needed to get an apartmenton my own and that job wasn't paying the bills and I accidentally took ajob selling software and I was working for a software reseller in Philadelphia and didvery, very well there and a company called Borland, who, at thetime it was based in Santa Cruz and was the third or fourth largest softwarecompany in the world, called me up and said we have a job foryou in California. If you wanted it's yours, and I jumped on aplane and went to California and never went back and I worked there for aboutfour years and started to get a little bit of a taste for management wherethe they would make me a team lead and then I ran a team offive inside sellers and then went to work for Webex. I was the thirdsalesperson hired at Webex back in one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine and stillhave a copy of like my original active touch before they were even Webex paycheck. That was a great run for us. We grew that team very well andwent through the IPO there and I ran a team of about twenty people. I went to a for compody called starfish the and starfish made a modemfor motor rolla phones. We sold that company to Motorola and then, afterI took some time off, I went to work at at the time Yahoohad an enterprise sales team and I went to run a west coast team forYahoo Enterprise and immediately after me joining, the CEO and CEO of Yahoo cameto us and said we shouldn't be in the enterprise software business. This wasa bad idea. We're going to shut this business down. I liked workingat Yahoo. Is a great experience and I stayed there for about five yearsafter that and was really just hustling around trying to find any job that Icould find at Yahoo. So I I went from enterprise sales. I wasone of the product managers for Yahoo Messenger. I got into this was Carol Barts, the CEO at that point, way before Carol, way before girl. So it was right when I joined, right when Terry Simil joined. OhWow, the Terry simil joined, and then Dan rose and sway joinedand then me. I was started in that lineup and they probably still couldn'tpick me out of a line up. Harry sell was like the first bigcelebrity CEO that they hired when they were sort of figure out what chapter twois going to be his, if I'm not mistaken exactly. And I thinkthe Terry Terry ran into like a lot of weird political things as he wastrying to turn it into more of a media company versus a search company,and I think it was hard for him to get a lot of the peoplein Sunnyvale to make that to make that shift. Yeah, I understand so. But it was cool, like I felt like I was getting an MBAbecause I got to do sales and I got to do product management and Igot to do ad sales and I I my last job there was on theMNA team where I got to help do an MNA integration with a lot ofthe like old web too, dotto companies that now, when I look aroundand I kind of see instagram. I'm like, well, that was sortof flicker before it was instagram. And I look at twitter and that couldhave been delicious. Should have been twitter, and all these companies that we wereI think Yahoo is just ahead of the curve there. But I learneda ton and it was a great experience. And then I joined a company calledBadgeville and helped the team there grow the revenue. Badial move me toLondon. I were in their European operations there. Came back to the USand Mark Schuster and Jason Lympkin introduced me to a really cool company in Lacalled Retention Science, where I ran their sales marketing in customer success for ayear. And it sounds a little bit spoiled, but my family just didn'tlike living in Santa Monica. It was the bother. You know, thebay areas home for us and for my kids. Their friends would fly downor they would fly up on the weekends and then everybody would disappear and thenyou kind of go into this other weird life and it was just close enoughto taste it, but it was far enough out of reach that you didn'thave like the normal life that we had back in the bay area. Sowe moved back to the bay area year later and lived on the same streetthat we lived on before we moved to London. Great, that's awesome.And then three years ago I joined dynamic signal and it's exciting because I reallydo believe that we're changing the way that large organizations can communicate with the vastmajority of their employees who traditionally they've had to communicate with the signs in thebreak room or paper newsletters. And one of the things is really exciting aboutthis company is, for the most part, every customer that we have you've heardof, right. It's not a...

...kind of smaller SASS company that's sellingto online retailers that may or may not be around in a couple of years. Dynamic signals customers, JP Morgan Chase or large logistics company or Oracle orCisco or these companies just aren't going to go out of business anytime and thenyour future, which kind of gives an extra layer of safety to the overallorganization. Yeah, and do you sell to HR? Who you selling to? So I'm going to a meeting on Monday at a large retailer. They'vethirty people coming to this presentation and it's people ranging from communications, so theCommons people tend to be the main driver of this, but hr is oneof them. legals, of course, one of them, because communicating tohourly workers is often times a tricky thing from a legal standpoint. It's we'vegot a COO that's coming to the meeting. So, because that's the person whoreally cares, how do we communicate out to all these thirty FIVEZERO employees? We've got a lot of it people who are coming. We've got someof the field managers, so like a region, like a district, vicepresident type of roles. So the wedge tends to be communications or HR,but then it very quickly spreads out from there. Yeah, and is theRoi. The employee retention and play engagement leading to greater productivity, in additionto probably like a your regulatory like you're legally required to provide. You know, this helps fulfill regulatory or leak requirements around employment. Yeah, you're hiredthat, you've nailed it. There you go. So what would it doif I could change, you know, employee engagement five percent across a hundredthousand workforce? This is why it's, you know, a million bucks hereor whatever. Yeah, you know, I mean it's we had a clientrecently who told us that for every point increase in their employee net promoter score, they see a half a percent increase in topline revenue. Oh my thatI mean that's a that's a great stat for the HR row or chief peopleofficer it's, or the CEO or the CEO and it and I think thatpeople, especially in this day and age where communications amongst your friends and amongstyour peers and amongst the news like you're getting so much information that people justexpect a level of transparency that I think a lot of companies don't give theiremployees yet, but we're seeing now that a lot of companies want to beable to do that and they want to share what's going on and they justhaven't had the ability to do that in the past. Yeah, it makesa lot of sense. Well, thank you for that background and I havea couple questions specifically related to the background. One of them is you've been doingthis a while, and not only have you been doing it a while, but you've had consistent success. You know, Webeck's ipoed starfish was acquiredby Motorola. You were part of Yahoo. So my question is, what keepsyou motivated, like what keeps you fired up to jump back in anddo this thing again of building sales teams and, you know, hitting arevenue number and the grind of it. Like what is it about this patis it the career, like what are the things that are driving you everyday? Both my parents were entrepreneurs. My Mom ran the office supply storethat I work for in high school. My Dad is a machinist and toolmaker and you I've always grown up building things. My build furniture as ahobby at my house. So I love the idea of taking nothing and buildingit into something and I think that the opportunity now a dynamic signal. WhenI joined it was five people and now it's thirty five. Like now I'mlooking at okay, like how do I continue to take this piece of claythat we've molded into the half shape that I want it to be, andI feel like there's still a lot of molding left to do here. Ijust love building things and fixing things and that's just kind of something that's inmy DNA. Yeah, no, I mean it's a very common. It'svery human. I mean it's basically it's a long winded way of me sayingme too. Yeah, that the feeling of having nothing exist and then somethingexists, whether it's a process or client or a team, just can't bebeat. No, it's so fun. You mentioned nature versus nurture. Imean do you, I guess, when you're thinking about the elements of yourpersonality that you think have led you to be successful and or conveying that outto the rest of the community, what do you think are the most importantskills or qualities and an exceptional salesperson? I would say empathy is number one. Curiosity is certainly number two. Then you take that empathy and you takethat curiosity and you start to transition that into okay, well, how canI help solve a problem for somebody? Then, of course, like justthe ability to ask for money. I think is is number four. ButI really do think like if you are a curious person and you ask smartquestions and you can be empathetic and put yourself in somebody else's shoes. ButI think those two things go a long way and it's one of the thingsI often coach younger sellers, whether they're on my team or elsewhere, isthese people have a lot of stuff going on in their lives and it's youknow, they're not just sitting around going like, Oh, you know what, I got to get on this dynamic signal contract, let me just runthis all over the place and sign it like. These are large companies andlarge companies have big problems and I try to coach people like, if youwork for a company that has a hundred thousand people in it, think abouta town that has a hundred thousand people in it, and the company probablyhas the same problems and your head of...

Colms and your head of HR areprobably dealing with bigger things like that. So you know, right now we'vegot Hurricane Florence coming into South Carolina and I want my rep in the southwestto do well this quarter. But it would be a very selfish thing tojust call that person up and go hey, before you guys evacuate, can youhit that Docu sign button for me? I mean you could do it onyour phone, so on them. Come on, I mean, Iunderstand that your towns flooded, right and I think it's so important to beable to put yourself in the shoes of the people that you're working with,really understand what matters to them and how can you make them successful if theywant to be successful and if they don't want to be successful. Okay,what's the other motivator for you? Is it to not get yelled at byyour boss, or is it to I've you hit this project, you're goingto get this bonus out of it or there's a promotion out of it orwhatever. You know, whatever it might be, just really understanding that andtrying to really grasp what it is that's important to that person and then,you know, keep digging into that and asking more questions about it and helpingto understand what's going on there. I think intellectual curiosity. It's the fundamentalyeah, the root of everything and many ways. And then your question,like to your you know, is it nature versus nurture? It's probably nurture. I was very lucky. Again, I know my grandparents were very affluentand kind of took me around all over the northeastern seaboard to see museums andto see orchestras and see symphony. So I got to experience that kind oflifestyle. So I got very comfortable dealing with people there. I had myparents who are the builders, so I got to experience that and and justkind of the melding of those two things, kind of that curiosity and that abilityto build is kind of led to where I am to day. Yeah, those experiences, those form of of experiences, for whatever the reason thatyou got to experience in whether your grandparents are affluent, etceteras, they're soimportant when you're young. One of the things, part of the reason wemoved to we move to London, I wanted to be able to give thatexperience. So to my kids. Did you like London? Oh my God, I move back in harbead. I absolutely loved it. What's the difference? Not to go off on too much of a tangent, but what's thedifference? Is the key difference is when you're building sales team specifically, thatyou notice between London and the state, Europeans are less pushy. Is thebig one. I think that there is a European culture. It's a littlebit more passive. I was in Spain once and the person I was talkingto you said you Americans are crazy. You work so hard during the bestparts of your life only so that you have a little bit of money tonot be able to spend it in the later parts of your life. AndI was really and I was like okay, that that sums up the European experiencepretty well. They're just not as driven. By my experiences there,there's less quarterly pressure, there's less kind of pressure to how people there's justoverall like less like things will happen when they happen, versus like how doI kind of continue to push and drive this thing as hard as I possiblycan? Yeah, I've no, I mean we've got offices in London withmy company and I guess our CEO just moved from London to New York andhe said, you know, I like New York. It's more transactional.People like to do deals here. Yeah, which is I think is interesting.One of the things that you we sort of we were talking about offline. You said no salesperson has ever had a bad call. Tell what youmean by that. Oh, it's I that's just something that I've always foundfunny. Like if, as a sales manager, when you ask somebody aboutyou know, they always come rushing into your office and they're like, oh, hey, I just had the best call with Soandso, and you're likewell, well, why was it a good call? It's like, Oh, well, we talked about the their kids and our kids play soccer togetherand we talked about the forts and what's going on there and they would justlike we, we just it was just such a good call and like well, like are they going to give us some money? Or what's going tohappen next? or Oh, I haven't figure that out yet. There werethey're really committed to the they're so committed to doing this project and I justlike it got to the point where I said, I don't want to hearabout your good calls anymore unless there's like a clearly definable next step action itemto it. You guys are dynamic some but it sounds like an an enterpricesale. So do you use a methodology, like is there a process are usingmedic walk us through, like you know your sales cycles? Just giveus an overview of like how you progress a deal through your stages at dynamicsignal. The average deal size about a hundred fifty thousand dollars a year.Aarr. We've got a half a dozen or so clients that are paying uswell over a million and you know bunch that are paying us under that hundredfiftyzero dollar mark, but that's kind of the the number. Our average salecycle from like a really qualified opportunity to close is about six months. Youknow, sometimes they last a year, year and a half and sometimes theygo ruler really quickly and you know, again there's lots of different forces thatimpact that. We do use medic we were running a sales methodology that calledskip Miller created for us and it was a great model and then we changedour business a little bit and change our messaging a little bit. So we'vecontinued to kind of tweak and adjust things. In terms of what the process lookslike. I don't think it's too much different than any other sance process, but we're constantly looking at okay,...

...what are the best sellers on theteam doing and how do we make that a lot more repeatable and then canwe inject that into a process? So one of the things one of myhead of enterprise discovered when he got here. He just he immediately picked on somepicked up on something that should have been very evident to the rest ofus, and that is, if you don't have a senior leader, CEO, Coo, svp of something in a meeting by about your third meeting,that deals never going to happen, essentially. So we went you're a hundred percentright. We looked at all the data around and we said, okay, you have to have that senior leader in a call or in a meetingby the third conversation. Else otherwise we're just kind of spinning our wheels onthis opportunity and let's push it back to the SDR team and have them nurturethat. So that's an example of that. But it's let's get the opportunity fromthe str let's qualify it, let's qualified some mo or, let's figureout if where the right selection and if we're o the right selection. Let'sgo through the legal process. We're not doing brain surgery or lunch missiles oranything here. It's we're selling software and it's it seems like it has beenmore or less the same process of selling anything, with minor tweaks for theexistence of time. Yeah, now you're right. The benefit of again toyour point, whatever you call it, whether it's medic my friend Dave Govin, they call it at Hatachi medical. I think we're going to do somethingat behave ox called Med pick cary medically have medic sox. Yet that's whenI use a couple of jobs ago. What is the thought? What doesthe Fox stand for? The Fox is just the Fox is the person that'sgoing to come out of your deal at the end and bite you in theass and fill your guilt. That is probably the CEO, the CEO orCEO or something well, or could be like the one of the things thatlike our Fox and our deal tends to be it. So we recognize hey, if it always has veto power, so get it involved in your dealsearlier. Like let's not go through a nine month sale cycle only to getto the end and have the it guy go well, you never take abunch of boxes for this and we don't approve it and you've got this otherthing that's kind of like that and it blows everything up. So let's justlet's call that guy out early and make sure we can do something here.Yeah, I mean the benefit of the whatever the acronym is, it's justa to do list for the sales person. Some hundred percent. Go Out andanswer this question. Go Out and answer that question and those are thequestions we know need to be answered. So one question I have. You'rerunning a big team. It's grown quickly. When you think about success or failurein your role, what are the biggest drivers? So obviously revenue andas we grow and continue to scale the organization, the type of revenue becomesa lot more important to me into the organization. As an example, we'venoticed that accounts that are under a certain dollar threshold having a much higher propensityto churn and probably the beginning of two thousand and nineteen, we're just goingto put the foot down and just say anything that is below this threshold we'rejust not going to do that deal. So either keep your deal above thator walk away from it as fast as possible. The time to value ona particular deal. So is the CAC right? Is the LTV right,and we get this done faster like that. Whole thing is like how do welook at overall clients excess us and making sure that you know, anybodycan go get a hundred thousand dollars, but can you get a hundred thousanddollars? That turns into three hundred, that turns into a million over thecourse of three years, and that says I start thinking about the deals thatwe're doing today. That's really what I want to that's really what I'm startingto look at and how I'm measured on that. And then the other onesaround retention of employees. Are we doing the right development of the employees?Are we giving them the right training? Are we putting them up on theright career trajectory? I always like to understand not so much what does yournext job look like, but what does your next next job look like,and how do we make sure we're putting every you know, the people,on the right path to get to that next, next step in their career? I'm going to ask you a highly tactical question, okay, because you'vedone this. So when you think about your dashboards, you know, whenyou think about the readoubts in the metrics then or refreshing every day. Soobviously cact LTV like, what are the five or ten? Give us somemetrics that you're looking at on a very regular basis to give you overall.You know, obviously you're looking at revenue, but what else you looking at?So what I'm looking at is more and this is super tactical. I'mreally looking at overall activity. So these are the kind of deals. Again, people get distracted. They've you know, not everybody has a hurricane coming through, but they've got their own metaphorical hurricane that's coming through their office.So I'm constantly looking at activity and our people staying on top of these deals. And I feel like if somebody shows up to your house with the bigbag of money and says hey, I want to give this to you,Sam, like you should be able to take that. But if somebody sayshey, you know, if you jump through some of these hoops, theremight be a big bag of money at the end of it, I wantyou to kind of continue to probe that. So I'm looking at when was thelast activity? When's the next stamp? What was that last activity look like? Are we getting to the ITP person? Are we getting to asea level person like? How big is the next meeting? How many peopleare involved in these conversations? All of...

...those things tend to lean towards abetter deal for the company. If I talk to a seller and they sayI've got this hundred fifty thousand deal, but I've only talked to one personinside of the organization, I'm going to be really skeptical about the reality ofthat deal. Whereas if I talk to a different cellar and they say I'vegot this three Hundredzero deal and I've talked to for people on the HR teamand we've got five people from COMMS and I've met the CEO and the CEOof the organization and it is blessed it and we've got your twelve or fifteenpeople who are involved in making this a success, that's going to be agood deal for us. Probably not unlike a lot of sads companies like thechurn, when it happens, oftentimes tends to happen because the champion who actuallybought the software got fired. So it's really important that we've got more thanjust Joe and communications or Sally and it as are single point of failure there, that we've got a good army of people who were there supporting this programif you, let's say you seller, has a really good meeting for people, they say let's set up the next meeting, but calendars don't line up. It's three weeks from now, are you saying? Well, between nowand three weeks from now, let's to grow a way to sort of nurtureall those different relationships and drop them some value and maybe get how are youmaintaining the APCITY? One one hundred percent? One, not one hundred percent.They have to stay on those things and it is hard to get forsenior level people from four different departments in the room at the same time,especially we're just coming off of summer both trying to schedule for people in thesame room in Europe at the same time is damn near impossible. So thatnurture part of it is so critical and it's you know, the nursing isa little bit different for each role, like it is going to get nurtureda little differently than h jar than comes and an executive, but we absolutelywant to stay on all of those people during that time. Yeah, Iagree. So it feels like a lot of the emphasis very traditionally is onsort of, you know, value based selling. But you were sort ofmentioning that. You know you think proposals are a waste of time. Youdon't want to demotorily walk us through a little bit of your thinking around howto make sure that, I guess, there's the right level of equality perhapsbetween you and the prospect or what the motivation is for, you know,for not sending proposals. For example, I have a lot of crazy beliefsthat a lot of people don't necessarily agree with, but oftentimes all beliefs arecrazy. Well, obviously, obviously we want to hear them. Now.My feeling on proposals is that most time when you tell somebody a number,they're going to disappear. It's very rare that you go hey, send mea proposal, I spend an hour putting together like a fancy document and Isend it over to you and then, like, you call me immediately andyou're like, Oh my God, Hey Sam, I'm so ready to buythis thing. I sort of feel like, rather than sending a proposal, likewhen you're ready, I'm just going to put together a contract and sendthat over to you and you know, the cost of this is twelvezero amonth. Then if you want to buy it, great, let's work ona contract. If you don't want to buy it, you need to gobudget it, go write down Twelvezero on a post it but I don't wantto spend lots and lots of time on something that's just going to end upin the Bin, and I get you, and oftentimes I do here I'll aboutthrow another belief, weird belief, at you. I think that salespeople tend to use proposals as a crutch when they haven't sold the value.And if you haven't sold the value into anything like your proposal just going toget looked at as a number. But if I can convince you that mysolution will generate ten million dollars a year in savings and you're completely bought intothat ten million dollars, as long as my proposal doesn't say more than tenmillion dollars on it, you're probably going to you will likely buy that becauseyou're going to get a machine that when you put a dollar in the topend, ten dollar falls at the bottom end. People like you are tooquick to rush to a proposal without figuring out that value. Maybe that's abetter way of articulating it. Well, I I just don't think it's thatcontroversial, or at least you know. Okay, yeah, I mean Iguess I agree with you and I've seen exactly your point. Sales people likeit because it's work, so it feels like I'm doing something and it helpsme, but it doesn't really help. So what would you say when somebodysays, okay, Scott's been great, you know, this is great,just send me a proposal, I actually say I don't send proposals and Irealize like that's a little bit to stand off fish. What I say is, I look, I send contracts. I'm happy to send a contract toyou and if you know, you can sign and send it back to me, but I also know I will. We're not ready for a contract yet. Okay, which is which I appreciate, Sam, and I wouldn't expect thaton the first call. That would be a weird thing if you wereready to buy something. But I think like if you're looking for a numberto put into a budget, I think that you can write down Twelvezero amonth is probably a good range for a company of your size. Oh well, that's actually there. So you did provide at least you you answer thequestion without giving too much, I guess. One of the guys on my teamactually answers the question in maybe the best way I've ever heard, andhe does it so consistently so well. He'll say typically for your company yoursize, it's about a hundred fifty thousand dollars a year, plus or minusfifty percent. That's awesome. It's such a great way to provide a ballparkwithout providing anything of that's really measurable or...

...accountable. Right. It's a littlebit of like just please fuck off or now, but also like, andyou do this at your company, like if somebody is asking for a numberthat quickly, they're clearly a commodity buyer that doesn't appreciate value and they shouldjust go to the low price leader of whatever it is industry that you're sellinginto and buy that, because they're if they're so keen on how much doesthis cost early on in the relationship, they're just not going to care aboutwhatever value that you do and any sales process that you go through is likelygoing to be a waste of time because it's so hard to convert a commoditybuyer to a value buyer. You're absolutely right. I mean we had thesituation here a couple weeks ago where, you know, sort of like atire kicking exploration and they said send us over your price saying and I didn'twant to do it, but I also I didn't consider a sale cycle oran opportunity. But I also was thinking the back of my mind, well, if they ever do get around to buying, it would be nice ifthey had some information, but we ended up not sending them the pricing information. Is The answer to the question and I think that there's ways that youcan tease it a little bit to figure out are they a commodity buyer orare they a value buyer? Just by asking about like what other things haveyou purchased and what, if the value that you're getting out of that,and how do you see people using that inside of organization, and you canstart to tease that out and figure out if there are a value or commoditybuyer. And if you're trying to build a value base sales process, youshould just ignore all of the commodity buyers and weed them out as fast aspossible, because otherwise it's going to all of that stuff that we're just talkingabout with time to value and Kak and LTV. That gets kind of continuouslydriven down and I think like there's a space in the SASS market for asecond place value leader. Like not everybody buy sales force. There's people thatbuy the low price leader in crm. They're not a bad company, likethey're not sales force, but they're out there. Yeah, now, you'reabsolutely right. I mean to your point. One of the biggest things people sayabout ineffective or bad sales practices is holding on to opportunities that you knowyou're going to lose way too long. Yep, probably directly related to whatyou're talking about. I did a talk recently called kill your darlings, whichis a famous literary expression of about Writers Fall in love with the character orthey fall in love with a sentence or a paragraph that they've written, butit's not a hundred percent relevant to the overall message of the story that you'retrying to tell. So it's hard for a writer to kill that character off. Similarly, the sales people like I've built that relationship with that person andI've talked to him about their kids soccer game and I've had so many greatcalls with them, but it's never going to turn in anything and we justhave to be honest with ourselves and kill these things absolutely kind a few moreminutes. Walk US quickly through the list of things that you believe. Thatyou believe others don't believe because I think it's a great list. I don'tthink the demo cell. I think too often sales people are like, oh, hey, they want a demo, let me show you everything that wecan possibly do under the sun, and they go through every like bell andwhistle and knob inside of their experience and they try to show everything off,and really what most people want to do is have a business conversation. Again, most value buyers want to have a value conversation, but they want someproof that what you're selling actually works, and I think that you can showthat in three to five minutes and you don't need to show everything. Atsome point you need to show everything to somebody who is using it, buteven in like most cases, you don't need to show everything everything. AndI see too often sales people that what should be a seven or eight minutedemo turns into a forty or fifty minute demo and people just get bored ofthat Shit. So be number one. I believe that you can't sell overemail. I think emails too easy to ignore. People get two hundred emailsa day and it's impossible to get through all of them and with any kindof reasonable amount of time. Just pick up the phone and call these people, like if you've got a good relationship an you want to sell to them, don't list your whole pitch and like a longass email, like most peoplearen't going to read your two thousand word email that you're putting together for them. So just pick up the phone and call them and have a conversation.And too often I see like, Oh, I'm going to I'll give this pitchover email, like no, just just pick up the phone and callthem, like you have a relationship with these people and they want to talkto you. If they really want to buy software, they will answer thephone of all call you back when they see her a number. I thinkthat this one might be my team's going to be pissed, but I thinkthat most people can push harder. I talk to some of the team atGong yesterday and I think that they've got a great leader and Ryan over thereand a good team. But one of the things, one of the statsthat they have is that it used to take six or seven contacts to getsomebody on the phone or to connect with somebody, and now takes fourteen orfifteen, and that's a doubling of that and what less than a decade orso. So I do think that people can push a little bit harder andit's amazing like when you just say, favor of you, or hey,could you do this for me, like when you ask it like that,like it is pushy but it's not belligerent, and I feel like if people aregetting kicked out of one client per order, they're pushing about the rightamount. If they're getting kicked out of more than one client recorder or they'repushing way to have art. That is a great stat yea, that's theprice of addmission for this podcast right there.

All right, you know, Ithe last last few questions and this has been awesome. I've got asuper tactical one that I did not prep before. Okay, your policy onLinkedin requests? Are you a I need to know everybody person specifically and Imanage a tight network. How do you view connecting with people on Linkedin?I tend to fall into that category and my one brush with celebrity early onwhen he founded the company, I spent some time with Reid Hoffman. Hecame over to Yahoo to talk to us about why Linkedin is important and whya corporate social networker, a business social network, is important, and somebodyasked him that same question. He said I only accept invitations from people whomI know and that I've worked within the past. I've tried hard to maintainthat policy, but I do have a lot of lumped in people. Fairenough, I'm the opposite. I accept all requests and I know very fewof the people in my linkedin network, sadly. But it's hard because thenthen when somebody's like, Oh hey, Sam, I saw that you wereconnected to Scott, can you make an introduction there? And you're like,well, I don't really know Scott that well. So or do you justlike blindly send them off, like I know people to do that too.I get like the Hey, Scott, you and I met at some conferencethat you spoke at in some weird place a million years ago. Can Iintroduce you to my friend and Joe? It's like, that's weird. Idon't get that request as often as I think as I would think that Iwould, but if I do get it, no, I say no, Idon't you know. I know that. I laugh and I say listen,I know there are first connection, but I have no idea who thatperson is and I'm sorry to tell you. What we like to do is sortof like at the end, it's sort of pay it forward a littlebit, and that's where we yeah ask, you know, who are the peoplethat have inspired you? Who are some of your favorite VP's of salesor CMOS or other great leaders that you think we should know about. SoI got a couple. So Ryan Longfeld, who I just mentioned, it Gong. I've got to know him recently. He's a super sharp guy. Reallyseems to know his stuff and would be a good conversation. Abe Smith, who's the Croro a decision. Great Guy. Ryan a Zeus, whois the I think he's still the Cerero at ring central or VP of worldwidesales. I'm not sure what it is. Exact title is superstellar guy. GregBrown is one of the best VP's of sales I've ever worked with.From Black Hawk. Kevin gaither done at zipp recruiter, if you've ever workedwith him, and that guy's that guy's phenomenal to know. That's awesome.And then any like great books if we want to. I think at somepoint I'm going to put together like the Sales Acer podcast reading list, becausewe got so many great recommendations. But what are some of the books thathave really inspired you or that you're just reading recently that you think we shouldpick up? So there's a couple. So one that I got introduced tomaybe a decade ago from a friend of mine. She recommended this book becauseit was all about preparation and it's something that I'm really passionate about. Wheneveryou're on a call or an interview like this, or you're going to givea talk or anything like that, preparation is so critical. And she turnedme on to this book called shadow divers, which I try to read every probablyevery two years. But it is about a group of divers, deepsea divers, who find a German U boat off the coast of New Jersey, and this is a true story. I think they're making a movie aboutit now. But these guys dive down and it's most of the book begoing these sixty minute dies, but they spend weeks and weeks and weeks preparingfor this sixty minute died because they're two hundred and fifty feet below water.Everything is so critical and you have to be so careful and so perfect abouteverything that it's a really good insight. And what I glean from the bookwas how important preparation is when you have a big event that you've got togo to, whether that's a big client pitch or whether I'm giving a talkand I'm going to be on stage somewhere, or I've just got a meeting withmy boss to go well prepare for a board meeting, like just howimportant that preparation is to be successful. Great Book. I love that.That's awesome and it has nothing to do with sales at all. It's justlike this fascinating story about these guys that are diving looking for sunken treasure becausethere's a lot of old ships off the coast of New Jersey, and theyfind this German you both that you know in one thousand nine hundred and fortyfour or whatever, got very close to the the New Jersey. Sure thatyou can dive down to it, pitch anything by or and clap. Ithink is a great book. It's one that I listened to on a prettyregular basis. I like influenced by Robert Calladini. I think it's one ofthe better books in terms of is that how you pronounce his name? Ihave no idea. I love that. I hope that that's I've been Ihope it is too, but I have no idea. I feel like that'sthe right way I'm going to what's crazy is is I have it on audiobook and I it's one of those books I kindly listened to every six monthsor so because it's a pretty quick read and you can do it in aweek of commuting, or I can do in a week of commuting, andhe says it and I still don't know how to say it. Fantastic.Jack Trout's power of simplicity is just like all it's all about, just likehow can you, how can you take stuff out of whatever you're doing tomake it more simple for the audience? And it's really just about kind ofdumping it down just so you have the most important message. They're right.If it takes twenty words to say, can you say in ten? Ifit takes five sides, can you do it in three? Like just howdo you just break all that stuff out to get to the really important stuff? When I do books I try to...

...do a business related book, afiction related book in a nonfixtion related book and sort of that cycle. Ithought bad blood was awesome. It was awesome. It's crazy. It's totallycrazy. Right, it's crazy. What's The guy's name? Sonny, youknow, the yeah rend or whatever. Just I don't know, man.It's one of the things it's just shocking about the world is how far liarscan get. Hopefully they're caught at some point, but just you can goalong way because people are generally gullible. Well, the crazy thing to menot only that, but like, what did those people talk about when theygot home at night? They had a thousand employees. They're like you gohome to your wife or your husband and they ask you like a what didyou do it work today, like like do you just lie like the theyall lie about it, or did they think they were working on something thatactually worked? Or that's what I didn't understand about the whole thing. Well, one of her strategies was to keep it so compartmentalized that you never gotthe just stalt so you thought, well, maybe my thing is, you know, challenging, but maybe the other teams are, you know, workingeffectively or something like that. So, so nuts yeah, Scott, I'munfortunately I feel like we could talk for a while, but we're at theend of our time together, so the last thing we want to do isbecause dynamic signal is growing. You guys are hiring. What is the bestway? You have a kind of executives that are listening to this right now. Yep, so how can they email you? How should they get intouch with you? To the point of Linkedin, what's your preferred mechanism foroutreach? Email, scotted, dynamic signalcom twitter is always a good one toget ahold of me. I'm just at snars ash and AARS. Linkedin isfine, although I probably won't accept the the requests, I'll certainly reply tothe inmail. That's pretty much those are the best ways. I guess that'sfantastic, Scott. Thank you very much. Congrats on all the success at dynamicsignal and over the course the career. Thanks for all the book recommendations andit's really great chatting with you and if you're ever in New York,drop me a line. Would love to Sam. I appreciate the time thatI thank you. Thank you. Hey, folks, it's Sam Jacobs, founderof the New York revenue collective and the host of your favorite podcast,the sale sacer podcast, and this is Sam's corner. We talked about abunch of different things with Scotch Nars. I really enjoyed speaking with them,and here's a couple tidbits. The main one I would encourage everybody sort offocus in on hone in on the act of sales. Is Not the actof of taking orders and it is not the act of providing information requested insort of a one way, unidirectional relationship. It's not send me a proposal,okay, here's our proposal. WHAT'S THE PRICE? Here's the price right. It is the act of discovering whether the prospects pain, whether their interestsand priorities are aligned with the value that your solution can create, and theway that you do that is by having an engage business conversation where you asklots of questions, and it needs to be an equal conversation. You're notjust they may view you as a service provider or a vendor, but that'snot how you should view it. You should view it as an interaction ofequals. John Barrows has this thing where he has a gift to get scorecard. Scott talked about proposals or a waste of time. Don't give themfull pricing when they ask for it. But the context is you need toqualify their interest around value before you talk about the specifics of the purchasing cycle. And the people that are just pay you know it's the first phone call. WHAT'S THE PRICE? Send me a price, send me a proposal.Hey, you're not going to send me proposal, I don't know your problemis, I'll just go to the next vender. Those people are probably notgoing to be valuable buyers anyway. So you have to qualify them out ofthe pipeline and holding onto those people is as often the mark in the hallmarkof an ineffective salesperson. So when someone says send me a proposal, takea step back and say, Hey, I'd love to send you a proposal, but tell me about the process for typically buying things. Let's confirm thatyou're interested and maybe let's have a conversation with a few other folks. Sojust be careful about how much you information you give away and try to havea more structured discovery process that creates a relationship of equals. So that's beenmy one more revelatory insight from your favorite person, Sam Jacobs. But let'salso thank our sponsors. So this episode, as always, was brought to youby two sponsors. That's air call, your advanced call center software, completebusiness phone and contact center, one hundred percent natively integrated into any CRM, and outreach, a customer engagement platform that helps efficiently and effectively engage prospectsto drive more pipeline and close more deals. Now to check out the show notes, see upcoming guests and play more episodes from our incredible lineup of salesleaders, visit sales hackercom and head to the PODCAST TAB. You will findour podcasts on itunes, Google play. And if you enjoyed this episode,as I see many people doing, please share with your peers on Linkedin,twitter or elsewhere. If you want to get in touch with me, youcan find me on twitter at Sam f Jacobs. We're heading into election season, so or we're intelection season again. Politics. The views are my own. Don't at me if you don't like...

...my politics. I'm sorry, andthen Linkedin or keep it professional. On linkedin, linkedincom in slash Sam FJacobs. Reach out to me. Thank you so much for all the supportand this has been Sam's corner. Thank you so much for listening.

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