The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 2 years ago

38: Why You Should Focus on Customers Unstated Needs w/ Munya Hoto, Digital Marketing Director, Foundry

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This week on the Sales Hacker podcast, we talk to Munya Hoto, Digital Marketing Director at Foundry and a Founding Member of the London Revenue Collective. Munya is an "accidental" marketer who comes to marketing from an economics background and who has helped develop unique insights into how to expand the market opportunity for growing companies.

One two one: Three: THREE BOT EVERYBODY: It's Sam Jacobs, welcome tothe sales hacker podcast. I am your host. I am also the founder of therevenue collective and we are now in New York, London, Boston, Denver,Toronto and Amsterdam thanks Andrek ressell and we're going to be over thecourse oftwo thousand and nineteen expanding to most of the major citiesin the world. I would expect so that's exciting and then I'm also the chiefRevenue Officer of a company, that's growing by a massive percentage everyyear, focus on the machine, learning and behavioral people in a lydic spaceand that's called behavox. So today, on the show we're super excited. We've gotone of the founding members: The London revenue, collective, a guy name,Unuratzzi hoto from Zimbabway. A short name for him is Munya, so Munyahoto isa digital, marketer and Munya has an economics degree in background andbrings a lot of really interesting insights about how to think aboutselling to people and why a lot of what we're doing is just you know: you'llhear it all the time when you sort of listen to sophisticated sales leadersbut speeds and feed selling features and selling core product. functronalityjust doesn't work it's a commodity. I mean it works you're, going to be aprice dweller you're, going to be competing on price because you're notgoing to create enough value. So munya teaches us in this episode how to movebeyond what people tell you. Their problems are and teach them about whattheir problems actually are, and a lot of this has to do with some of theconcepts that we heard from last week from Brent Adamson around theChallenger Sale. When you came up with this stuff sort of on his owne andactually didn't even hasn't yet sort of been a student of challenge ormethodology. But it's a lot of the same ideas if You'e just going off of whatthe prospect says, you're probably going to do it wrong. So he'll tell usall about that now before we get started. As always, we want to thankour sponsors. The first is aircall air calls ephone system designed for themodern sales team. Of course they seamlessly and magically integrate withyour crm. They eliminate data entry for your EPS. They provide you with greatervisibility into your team's performance. They've been an outstanding supporterof the saleshacker podcast. So we really are appreciative of the worktheyre. Originally a French company growing massively in the US. Thanks tosome of the work that Jeffre Kers is doing and when it's time to scale withaircall, you can hade new lines and minutes. It doesn't take very much atall. You can use incall coaching to reduce ramptime, so visit ar calld dot,io forward Ashsales hacker to see why a bunch of amazing companies like Uber,Donand, Bradstreak, pipe drive and many others use them to power the mostcritical sales conversations. Our second sponsor is out reach the leadingsales engagement platform out reached triples, O productivity of sales teamsand empowers them, and you to drive predictable and measurable revenue.Growth outreach has been growing by leaps and bounds out. Rich acquiredsales tacker, the company earlier in two thousand and eighteen, but reallythe product and the category is exploding sales, enablement salesdevelopment. All of it is just very, very powerful. Outrach does that byhelping you prioritize the right activities, scaling customer engagement,it's an enterprise, ready platform, so e can scale for the biggest companies,but it can also be for you know, for a very small company. They've gotintelligent, aunimation they've got amazing, analytics and Dashbortsthey've got a great team. They've got a product driven founder in many Medinaand, of course they are just an incredible company. So go over tooutreach dot, IOE forward, sash sales hacker to see how thousands ofcustomers, some of them include glassdor cloud. Dara Pandorazilo relyon outrage to deliver higher revenue, persale's rap, that's outreached, dot,isle forward Ash Sale, tacker finely. Let's thank a bunch of you, amazingfans and- and I want to talk to you about what's possible. So one of thepeople I want to mention is Oran Freedman or in reached out to me andhas a lot of really interesting insights on podcast formats, and so Isaid what do you think we should do different and he said how about like aJoe Roganstyle long form interview, and I think that that's really reallyinteresting and so trying to we're going to try and pick a few one or twopeople. Maybe do it on a weekend or something but have you know somethingthat's a little bit longer than thirty or thirty five for forty minutes, sothanks or in for the feedback also want to think Chase Carter chaseworks atpendo and chase got. You know his cro bill to be a guest on the podcast, sothat's coming up. So if you've got a salesleader or you got somebody thatyou think its super interesting that you think should be a guest, send themour way but chase helped us do that Harrison. Johnson and Justin Ingram areup at starborh data and Boston and they heard about the Boston revenuecollective through the PODCAST, and they also listen to the podcast soagain, all kinds of different ways of a reaching out and contributing you're ina city that you think needs a revenue, collective or you've got a boss or aleader or a mentor that you think should be a guest or you just havesuggestions, because you think I'm an idiot, many people think I'm an idiotand I'm not offended anymore at this point, I'm just too old and too tired,so chase oren, but als and Harrison, but also are hairy and Justin Ingram,but also timothy, Hartnett, Branan,...

Santos, Jack Agilar Casey from thankyou so much Murray, Sharp Scott Tirco Ben Hoginson and Nate Brascom fromChili Piper. Thank you all for listening. Please give your feedback.Please find me on Linke Dan. We really really appreciate the support share,the the episodes and the content that you think is interesting and tell yourfriends so that we can continue to grow and you can get better and betterguests. So that's my thanks to all of the fans out there and without furtherDu. Let us listen to Munyahoto who's, absolutely an amazing marketer, andthis should be a great interview: Hey Everybody! It's Sam Jacobs, yourfriendly neighborhood podcast host. Welcome back to the sales hackerpodcast. We are really really excited today to have somebody that I recentlymet. That's been really influential and sort of how I approach the world ofmarketing he's. Also a founding member of the London revenue, collective andhis insights on marketing are really really. I don't know if they'recontroversial but they're unique and they're incredibly helpful when you'rethinking about messaging, so without further dolet. Let's talk about myguests today, his name is Munyo hotel. He describes himself, as is imbaboyborn accidental marketer. Currently he is the Digital Marketing Directoratefoundary, which is an aword winning software provider in computer, graphics,Visual Effects, gaming and design and then prior to foundry. He was on thefounding team in Ideo its a content intelligence platform where he was SPPof marketing reporting directly to the CEO. That is essentially where helearned the skill and the craft and began to apply some of his ideas tomarketing and then before that, he graduated from the University of Exeterhere in the UK, where we're recording this with an MSC in economics and anhonors degree, and he's he's done a lot of very important work at CambridgeUniversity, which we'll talk about so Munya welcome to the show Sam. Thankyou very much for having me we're excited to have you so what we like todo when we get started. Is We like to just we call it the baseball card, butwe learned we like to learn a little bit about you, sort of where you'reworking a little bit about that company. So first tell us about your phole nameis Munyaradzi. Is that right? That's correct, okay, good and your title isDigital Marketing Directorate Foundary? Also correct. That's right! Okay, tellus about foundry what is foundry you mentioned when I saw you on Wednesday.You guys are breaking out of sort of like the film world, where I thinkyou've won some awords. That you'll tell us about and intonew category, sotell us what is foundry? What do you do there? How big is the company walk usthrough that? A little bit so foundry is a producer of visual efect softwaremostly focused on the movie gamiand kind of episodic TV industry beenaround for twenty years prior to about two years ago. It was known as adefoundry. So if you ask anybody about the foundry in the industry, that'sprobably what they identify with, but we dropped the te in a rebrand whichwas not easy to kind of pull off, but it was much easier for ourcotertwriters to be able to kind of insert that into pr release and thatkind of thing. But if you've watched a movie or a TV series in the last saytwenty years, you've probably seen some of ours. Two Kit in action, NukAlflagshir product, has become the defactor industry standard within themovie industry for compositing and actually this year. For the first time,actually one was on a cademy award at the sideteck awards at the Oscars wow yeah. Did you get to go to the Oscars? No, wesent the product team hat that works on you. I think I would have loved to be the one to goup there, but it was a real special moment for the for the kind of hardworking guys wor come in, go into the basement and come up with this reallyreally cool stuff. So we send to if you do end up going to the Oscars. Can I beyour date, so I'm sure I'd be the lucky one inthat situation. That's very kind of you to say so. It's visual effects for films,which is, and then you mentioned, that you're sort of applying the technologyto new industry so tell us a little bit about that. Yeah. The really cool thingright is we prodectized in film and TV, but it's cool. What or SWEDOF productis able to do. Is it allows you to visualize incredible ideas? So when youelevated to that that level, you find out ther loads of industries wherethere's a lot of legacy kind of process around bringing ideas to life. If youthink about industries where people are sketching pencil, crafting models andplay en our software, becauses really really powerful, so one of the areasthat were it pending into at the moment is in footware design, where we'rehelping footwear brands and some of the largest in the world and move away fromsketche and Pencil in Tudy to actually visualizing the ideas and looking atdifferent types, ofd formats of the of the products that they make in ThrdNNANVR. So that's one of the new applications and it's a really excitingspace, much as for us, but even for the customers as well, because it's reallyreally helping them to get to market faster and to see a lot more of aSitilitin. The design process, that's exciting. So how big is foundry and isit it's? Okay, if it's not, but is it a...

SAST? Business is a recurring revenuebusiness or is it more transactional revenue? What's the business model? Sofoundry is about three hundred people and we operate in kind of four revenuescelarios. If you can believe that, so in our COR business, we still have aperpetual lecensing model with maintenance kind of sitting on the topof that. But we do have subscription products on the law end of our pricefoin. So some of our sculpting Texturi and paging tools, those can be bort onmanual, license on a subscription model, and then we've got some of ourenterprise. Playns Cudin Multie re occurring deals. So we've got the wholesweet, even self transacting kind of self surviing lowr price point to setsthat customers can just buy on their own as well, that are on a subscriptionmodel and you' You're, not really venture backed, but your sort ofprivate equity back tos that right, that's right! Well, foundry began itslife as a venture, backed assets and then a few years into that journey,Carlile came along and bought out the whole company N in Ina p kind ofmanagement byouts and then at then led to about five years journey with withCarlysle and then about four years ago. The London based privateate Wude Fund,the ht capital, bougt foundry from Carlou and so we're a p bad assets outof London at the moment. Well, I guess you weren't really therewhen when it was venture back but have you having been adventure backcompanies, I would have you been at adventure back companies or exclusivelyprivate equity back companies in your career. So far, so I have been anadventure back tos that in fact, at idio we initially we were kind of seebacked by some angels, and then we took on some Vinchca some venture capitalwith a notion Captel, who you might be Wer, of course notion, and that was afantastic journey with notion. So Yeah I've been I've been on the inside ofadventure back dasset before is there a difference in your experience, just asbeing a senior operator between venture and private equity that you can tell oryou just do your thing and you don't really care what the captables yeahthere is. There is iuld say the main difference is the ubiquity of cash in the venture world. I think you canyou're always feeling that tension of you know how long have we got. What'sour runaway, how much w we bring in wheres in the Pe Back World You'rreally sitting the plane up front. I'm not really worrying about the fact thatyou might run out of cash because that's not really a dynamic that comesinto play in the same way as if you're in a venture backdaset. Is that becauseyou're, profitable or just because they've said they'll underwrite you nomatter what oh it's their business, they minded to keep it going, butactually the good news is that often times in the PWORLL, you already at apoint where you're, profitable and you're really looking at multiple waysto expand that business either in organical organically. So cashgenerally is not a challenge. That's really interesting! I like Hi. Exactlyyour point is, is well input, which is it's their business and adventure.There are not typically majority shareholders, so the foundary is howbig is foundry just from a I guess, wwe're in London recording this, so youcan tell me in terms of pounds or euros or US dollars, but how big is it sofoundry is on about a I think. Fifteen million pon run rate fifty millionpounds at previous exchange rates. That would be seventy million US dollars now,it's probably closer to sixty, but still pretty big yeah still pretty big,and it's about three hundred people, like I said so, Rell really tighten itwel function team! That's helping to deliver that value to to the shirholder.That's great! Well! Well, Munet! Thank you for that overview of the business.You know you describe yourself as an accidental marketer walk us through. Iguess I mean it's always interesting to hear. You grew up in Simbobbay how youmade it from Zibomway first to the University of Exeter, but also to thepoint of sort of this conversation. Why coming out of Exeter, you know you sortof describe yourself as an accidental marketer and how you're applying someof the concepts of economics to the world of marketing. That story isreally really interesting. So would love for you to to share it with USyeah. So I am Sin Bob Win born and I encourage anybody. That's listening tothis podcast o spend some time down there. It's really beautiful. Weobviously have one of the seven natural wonders of the world down there. TheRITORIA falls, but I love Zim in about the right age of eighteen to come outto the University of Exeter to come and study economics. The reason I choseeconomics was, I really didn't, know what I wanted to study and somebodykind of whispered in my ear that here's a discipline that if you study thisyou'll, be able to walk into any field with some level of understanding of howa business operates. So the goal was to be as broad and kind of general ha aspossible, and that was the reason for stepping into that. In the first placethat turns out, I loved it. I loved the principles of it and the way it madeyou think about kind of prospects and customers as rational economic agents.Initially. So it was during my first sea ther that I met up with thecofounders, an idio who were trying to build this software company, and one ofthe things that I brought to the trable at that time was a real, simple view ofthe world, which I think oftentimes. When you're in marketing I mean italways exist, and so we wule talk very...

...early on in the dinamics principles,classes that buyers, customers, Arsta, rational economic agents that aretrying to optimize their utility, given their constraints, which means thatthey're trying to get as much of value as possible out of the thing thatyou're trying to provide them against the constrasts that they have in theiruniversea. That can be budgetary. It coul be time and could be otherresources. So how do you position your story, your product, in such a way thatthe customer, the prospect feels like they're, getting the maximum value forthe least amount of investment, and so taking that into insideration ad alwaysbeen thinking that way, I wasn't trained classically in anything likebranding or PR or any of those really really cool disciplines at othermarketers, everal strength, and but what I was capable of doing was takinga perspective on the customer. That meant that I was always trying to getto the heart of the issue rather than trying to kind of embellish or presentour product in a way that was more compelled. I just wanted them to feellike if they choose us as a natural partner, do business with they're goingto get maxilum VALU interesting. So how do you do that? Andfor those that are not in my brain, which is the entirety of the universeNua, and I were in a messaging workshop on Wednesday evening as part of theLondon revenue collective, where Munyo sort of walk through some of his coremessaging ideas? So tell us: How do you help the prospect or the customer getmaximum value, and how does that impact the marketing messaging that you bringto market as a company making a product yeah? It's a frantetic question Tan. Ithink when I think about prospects and customers in fectual night. When I talkto you, we started our workshop at the London rever you collective by playinga little kind of game where we were looking at whether or not we in theroom were rational agents, ourselves kind of a lottery game and if there'stime, maybe one day will play on on one of our official discussions, but but but the basic for the basic premise ofhow I approach Marketingis to think about how prospects or customers howthe brain is operating as a confront Al encounter. The messages that we'reputting in front of them- and the very very first thing that I introduced intothe discussion that we were having on Weddinsday, is at prospects, andcustomers are three times more likely to move away from a pain than to movetowards again hat. That sits, install contrast to a lot of the messaging thatyou will encounter, particularly ind Beeta, BA, where a lot of the websitesof vendar and solution providers are talking about how much they can improvecertain outcomes, how they can improve performance, but actually that's notmotivating the customer of the prospect at all, in fact, its actuallyreinforcing their decision to do nothing rather than to actually make adecision to change. So in helping not just the business that I operate intoday as a foundry, but some of our partners from the later revenue,collective and other venture back an p Bak assets. I help them to starp tothink more carefully about how to position their message in front ofcustomers so at the Customr is motivated first of all to change notnecessarily to choose them as the Natrel partnersship business with,because the hurdle that most F businesses face is not about beingselected as one of the solution providers in a competitive bakeof. Butit's actually getting customers to change in the first place, because mostof us who are selling software to to customers are losing to the statusquarrel more than we'e losing to the competition in fact bout. Eightypercent of the time. How do you motivate people to change you mentionedthere's sort of three times more likely to move away to resist te loss. Is thatright on my expartiit Curreculat? How do you frame that in the right way andmaybe walk us through? You know you, we've discussed in the past sort oflike the difference between stated needs and kind of unconsidered need, sowalk us through that framework a little bit okay, so the first thing that mostkind of sales and marketing people do and- and you correctme, if I'm wrong,but I've run an STR team before and I've supported a lot of sales leaders.The first thing that we often do when we get on the discovery or we'remeeting customers for the first time is we ask them to tell us what theirproblem is? You know what are you struggling with what's hard about yourjob at the moment and because they aske that question a lot by a lot of serviceproviders. They've got an answer for that question and those are theirstated needs. Those are the things that they know to tell you. Unfortunately,those things they've already aligned them with what they think yourcapabilities are as a solutions provider and the issue with askingabout those things. This voice of the custom feback about their needs thatthat they understand is that that message is already become a commodityand does not motivate them to change. It actually reinforces them to stay inthe cart way of working, because actually that set of circumstances thatthey currently operating was somebody's good idea. Somebody in the organizationcame up with a strategy, came up with a plan an that has engineered been intothat position and even though they're telling you that it's a problem, theacten ot minded to change very much. So in the very beginning, we're alwaystrying to figure out what are the unconsidered needs that the customer isnot discussing or not revealing in those conversations and Bheunconsidered need to come in kind of...

...three types. There is the undervalued,unconsidered need, which is the thing where they kind of feel like it's aproblem, but they haven't really identified it. Clearly, the size andspeed of that problem in their organization and Eslechthy feel likethey can limp along and with it quite comfortably and not have to change thesecond one is the unmet unconsidered need. This is where the organizationhas crated a workaround. They've got a Hada. Theyve got a manual process thatthey've put in place, and they theye quite comfortable that wayare working.They know it's not best in practice. They it's not perfect, but who'sperfect and they okay with it and then the third one is the unknown,unconsidered need where they don't even know they have that problem, and so thegoal in messaging and training sales people in putting out our distinctpoint of view to the marketplace is to match those unconsidered need with whatI would closs as your y unspecified capabilities and I'll give you a verysimple example: When people think about foundry, they think about foundrywithin the context of visial effects for films and gaming and TV, butactually like we discussed, there is an unspecified capability. There, that'sactually very, very useful to footwarl brand wo today in order to bring ashoot to life or having to draw it in Pencil, modelate and in clay and shipsamples from the US o from the UK v China back and forth, and that processis riddled with all kinds of unconsidered needs and inefficiencies.So when we begin to talk to them about those issues, rather than just tellingthem that you can design a shoe bletter, suddenly Wi'vhe identified andunconsidered need and also introduced a distint point of view. We talked aboutthis before, but this is similar. Although you know sort of the ideashere are both very very powerful a little bit. You know and similar tosome of the ideas that we hear about in challenge or where you're sort oftrying to lead with commercial insight and particularly on sort of like theundervalued, maybe they've stated they have an idea of a problem, but maybethey're characterizing it as an inefficiency and they're, not reallyconsidering the size scope. As you said, the size and the speed is that right,tats rigt of that problem, the magnitude of that problem- and you youhave a great example from your daysat idea- walk us through sort of how youguys your content management system. If I'm not, if I'm not mistaken, how youtook data from the market and transformed it into messaging, thatdirectly sort of stoke to the pain of an unconsidered need and then and thenultimately help us tie that back to you know, business performance and salesgrowth right, yeah, so idio, which is still growing fantastic tool, said thatthe teams built over there is a constant intelligese platform and verysimply what Ido as able to do is it's able to build a unique interest profileabout you, San based on what you're reading and then is able to query thatYouneique data said in order to give you the next best piece of content. Thenext time you visit that particular website or you open the next email,that's coming or being delivered to via exact Agu or Markyo automation likeMaretto Elloqa, this kind of thing. So we were looking at entering the wealthand asset management space because we had a distint point of view. Abou wasgeing on thit. The message that wasn't going to work was aboutperssinalization and improving the click through rates on emails andclicks on calls to Actualy on a website by thirty or thirty five percent.Although that would have been an interesting or good improvement, itwasn't something that was sufficiently loosening the status quoe and creatingurgency and uniqueness, because the challenge they had was bigger than justgetting people to posilization on the website. The biggest challenge they hadwas about. Why are we producing content at irrelevant in the first place? So Iwalk that back and kind of explain it in a bit more detail. Please do I loveit? So if you think about he, the Walthan assid management space, that'sa highly competitive space and the way that people choose which funds to gowith is that they read content as a result. JP Morgan Alliance, BernsteinState, stree, global advisors, blackcrop, are all producing loads andloads of reports content in order to not be missing from any conversationwhen a customer comes searching for content as it pertains to oil and gas,enewables, energy mining, etc. So the CHALLENGEIS that they end up producinga lot of content that nobody ever ends up reading. In fact, the statisticaround that floats around Aboue under utilized or unused contents instedabout sixty to seventy percent. When we spend time with these brands, we foundout that Eightyo. Ninety percent of their content actually sat aused. Noone ever saw it on a website or in an email, but they were investing all ofthis money into producing this content and then, when you've got so muchcontent and you're producing it at such a high pace be to take competitivelyrelevant. You think that thet solution to your problem is pestalization,because you're thinking Huh, if I can just put the right content in front ofthe right person, even though I've got this huge, broad library of content,then that's going to mean we're going to be more efficient in terms of howwe're using that content. But actually...

...that was actually the small end of theproblem. The big problem is: why are you investing millions and millions ofdollars a year producing that content in the first place, and the unspecifiedcapability that idio has? Is that idio was able to tell you not only whichQaunten you should serve the customer, which is the output of its its engine,but internatly? It's able to tell you which topics are read the most by yourcustomer base and actually begin to inform your editorial and contenteamabout what content to produce in the first place. So now you go away fromtrying to optimize on an inefficiency to actually creating the right contentright out of the out of the box, and the saving for them was multiplemillions of dollars. But they started thinking about how to produce the rightcontent in the first place, not just trying to prestnalize this huge libraryof irrelevant content that they were creating, and so we were able to notonly expose that undervalued, unconsidered need around cottonproduction, not precalization and then put an actual size and a speek to thatproblem, because they were telling us that their biggest challenge from amarkting perspective was budget. And then we were able to show them thatactually, when eighty percent of their content sits, unread, they're wastingup to and I'm going to kind of avigate this between eight and ten milliondollars a year in waste of budget on producing content that nobody actuallyends up reading. So the natural decision to go with us in order toinform the editorial conpentin. What to produce in the first place was an wasan easy one. At that point, it's a great story because, to your point,they're telling you well, you know we don't have enough budget to addressthis solution and you're saying well, you know you're spending, ten milliondollars more than you need to I'm sure we can find a couple hundred thousanddollars for idio within the ten million dollars that we're going to save youover the course of the next one to two years. Is that right? That's right!That's right, and then that story became powerful when we were going intoother people that look a lot like that particular asid manager, because againthey all have the same problem and customers a believe something about youand I that sometimes we don't even know about ourselves. Customers believe thatyou and I a see more people that look like them, that they do so as a result,they believe us and we tell them about a trend or a change- that's happeningin their marketplace because again they really believe that we see more peoplethat look like them. We have an understanding of the market from amacro perspective, Ive, as we are spending every day solving thesechallenges. So when we say to them, you don't have to struggle at eiht ninetypercent of content under utilization. They take it seriously because again,they know that theyr competitive looks not like them is working with us tosolve that problem. So now again, you're loosening the status quo, you're,creating urgency and youliqueness and then watcs they compelled O wit. Theyneed to change. You can then begin to differentiate your solution and that'swhere Youre specified and state of capabilities can than Poe en toIntepeso. How do you I mean? It's really really interesting.I guess sounds like there's: How do you operationalize this concept, and- andwhat do you give is this all sort of at the top of the funnal when it comes tocontent marketing? Are there tools or specific what are th the tools that arethe arrows that you give to the salesperson's quiver to help theminstigate this kind of conversation, so, first of all think you have to go alayar deeper in terms of understanding. What are the blockers in our way right?What is stopping the prospect from even making the decision to change andthere's about four things that I think every salesperson every marketer shouldknow before they launche that SDR discovery called before they even beginto craft and editorial and content strategy and those it's four pillars,really that I typically look at, and these are the things that, if you don'tconfront these in your sales deck on your website, you know editoryl andCONDOF strategy, you're not going to be successful. So here they are. The firstis preference stability. We know that customers are eighty percent of the time, they'remore likely to do nothing than to choose any supply, and you know this byanalyzing your crm. Eighty percent of qualified opportunities end up choosingto make no decision, and that's because the customer has as retreated back tothe current way of working. So the first thing we need to be telling oursales people is be aware that the thing that you're going to confront today asyou go into that conversation, is somebody whois wedded to the status quo,as somebody whose preferences are so stable that you have to come with aprovocative and unique point of view. That makes them think that there is aflaw in the way that theye approaching their current business process and makeit an existential flaw like a mortal wound. That means that they didn't justfeel like H. Okay, that's bad for us this quarter, but, like we continuedown, this path, We'e, Ote, going to be in business in two to three years. Thesecond thing is that all prospects have anticipated regret when they'rethinking about a new partner, a new solution that they're trying to kind ofintroduce into their process and anticipated egret is about what, ifthis doesn't work, you know when you're telling us all this great stuff abouthow we're going to know what to write first and that's going to you know kindof improve all ou utilization of content. What if this all goes wrong,I'm the one who's on the line here is the sponsor of this deal. So how do youhelp youryour prospect and your...

...customer to feel comfortable that thecost of change is less than the cost of staying the same because as you walkinto that conversation, the cost of saying the same looks negligible. Youknow they've already discounted it, perhaps even down to zero. They feellike there's no cost to our current operation or process, but the momentthat I introduce in new technology, I have to consider training have toconsider resourcing so they've got. This anticipated regret that if we makeall of these investments in it goes wrong somebody's going to be on theline for that and that person looks like me. The third thing that they'refeeling about again is the anticipated they worried about the procived cost ofchange wh. I just talked about this looks hard not just from a cost andinvestment perspective, but how do I get the organization as a whole tocomer with me? How do I get my managers to come with me? Ur? I get my fellowdecision makers to come along with this, that perceived cost of change and thatthat challenge of getting the organization to kind of go with thisagain it's hard and we don't often equip oursalves people to be havingthat conversation that empathizes with our responsors. When we're running adeal to say, you know what I want you to know that this is hard. I see a lotof people that look a lot like you and it was hard for them as well, but wegave them they structured and with mythological step through that helpthem to go from being in this position that during today, to being asuccessful hero to the organization and then finally, you've got this challengeof selection difficulty. The reason why a prospects often also fall away fromfrom doing a deal is because they confuse theyr overwhelmed with choiceoverload, because initially we talk about what we're capable of doing andthe e Lan in all these value added services, because we're trying to getthe deal done, but actually it's more important to be surgical and be very,very clear. How you are a resolution to the unconsidered need that you'vesurfaced and making that the first step for them to begin a journey with you,so bringing that to how you operationalize that, once you've laidthe foundation of those unconsidered needs, you've discovered how you'regoing to specifically de stabilize thet preferences you're going to resolve forthat anticipated regret by making them the hero of the story. They're, goingto prove that the cost of change is less than the cost of saying the sameand you're going to sufficiently defrentiate so that your solutionbecomes the natural next step to getting them out of the situation tofind themselves in you, then, on top of that begin to Croft messaging for thewebsite, you begin to create an editorial conton strategy. That saysour wite paper is going to be focused on these issues, because we know thesecause customers to want to change. Your SDRs are now acquainted with the goalof getting customers to choose to change before they choose to choose youas a solution provider, so the foundation is messaging and theneverything else its on top of that. So I have a question for you sure doesthis mean you know to your point of marketing again, is not as effective assort of causing or provoking t e sense that to your point, the status quot isuntenable and that the the pain of the present situation is dramatic and, as aconsequence, that's the thing that's going to motivate them to change asopposed to marketing or or sort of pitching them. You know an incrementalgame, particularly against the stated need because, as you said, that's acommodity. They've said that to every single vendor that they've come upagainst. Does that mean that all of our messaging kind of needs to be fearbased and there can't be aspiration or optimism in the marketing messaging?You know ind like in the website, is everything about hey. You didn't knowthis, but your business is about to go of. He cliff and it's it's all fear uncertainty in doubtand there's nothing about hey. We can sort of change the world together andclimb this mountain together in an optimistic way. What's your take there?Actually, I think it's hazardous to just be the bear of bad news ut all thetime. What I think we're trying to do here is to create sufficient contextand contrast for the customers that they see their current situation, andthen they see a preferred picture of the future. So youyou've got to do bothit's not sufficient for you to just leave them in a crisis without givingthem steps to be able to resolve that crisis. So very simply, I want to bringcustomers into a place where they understand the real eistential impactof the card way of working to their business, but then show them that thefuture can literally be better than that, because I work with people thatlook like them and I can help them to begin to make that journey. You've gotto put those things side by side and the grass literally needs to be greeneron the other side. So I always say anybody that I work within this regard,that your product needs to be good enough or at lest the minimum viblecapabily of is needs to be competitive enough that you can actually show thatthe grass, if you come with me, is literally greener on the other side.But I want you to know that you cannot continue to operate your business likethis, because I want to bring the reality of the flaws of your approachto your process to bear and then give you a picture of what the future lookslike. But that only is effective if you have an understanding of your currentcontext in realityes yeah, but so understood that they live side by side.But there's a sequence and y a it does feel like. The first thing you need todo is sort of tell them that their life...

...is terrible before you can make theirlife better yeah, but th this one unique case where you almost want toflip that around and that's when it comes to the renewal conversation andagain, this is applicable to to to Mostof the people who are the audienceto this. As far as I understand, where operating fast businesses, whereretention is absolutely crucial in the retention conversation, you are now thefaitest qual, your somebody else is disrupting your customers point of viewand telling them that they need to change. In that conversation, you needto restate to them why they shows you in the first place, show to them thejourney that they've made from the thei initial status quol to your currentposition and how the grasp or them is Greea. You know, so you start byreinforcing why it was right to go with you and then, from that perspective,begin to introduce other capabilities that you can lay on on top of that froma from an upsode Crossou perspective. But in that situation we don't want tobe telling your customer that Mab was the time to change Yeue, actuallytrying to tell them that now was the time to stay the same of course. Wellnow you are the now you are the Status Co. You have to flip the whole thingand tell them that everything everything is all of a sudden, fine onemore question, so it strikes me that I mean I have many questions. We have abit more time together, but it strikes me that this message has to bedelivered to somebody that cares, and so that sort of speaks to me about theclassic kind of value, baseselling concepts of moving above the powerlineand making sure that you're getting to power, because you have to be tellingsomebody that your business is failing. That cares about whether the businessis failing. Do you agree? Disagree? Is that part of the strategy of sort oftrying to get to the CA suite? That's right. I think you have to elevate ouconversation, I've written in the Posta Bout, how sales people, particularly atthe SDR level, are afraid of heights and that's about, if you actuallyanalyze your crm and the volume of convversations that are happening withpeople that can actually make decisions affect the business from an exestentialpoint of view is probably about twenty percent and the rest of theconversations are happening with midde level kind of sponsors who love to havea good conversation, but can actually elevate those issues or don't want tobecause they also don't want to be the ones to expose the business to the ideathat well not do as well as we thought we were doing so. I would say it's keyto take to elevate this conversation to the people who are worried aboutwhether the business will be here in a year or two years. Time and again,those people don't want to know the newancs of the features that youprovide as solutions provider as a software as a softwadare provider. Theywant to understand how was this going to affect our business and so there's alittle bit of a contradiction as it pertains to how most ssassivebusinesses that have ve seen the inside of and even we were guilty of thisearlyon in our life, an Ireo where we train ourselves, people a lot on whatthe product does but know how it affects the customers existence goingforward, whereas the customer is worried about the existence goingforward, Bot necessarily about what your product is capable of doing from afeature new one's perspective. So there is a business acuman gap there thatdoes exist and it's crucial. ENSALES leadership, perspective of Markeleadership perspective to be elevating the conversation sufficiently that youare speaking in the lexicon of the person who is capable of making apercencition in your favor because they feel like they gin to save theirbusiness from falling apart. Does this impact how you partner with the salesteam in terms of the sequencing of the sales flow? To our point about I meanit completely agree with you that, particularly in product led technologyled companies, the engineers, often they are passionate about what they'vebuilt and they want the business team to understand how the product worksyeah, but they fail themselves to understand anything about or notanything, but often they fail to understand about the customers, livesand people. Don't they don't buy features to your point. They buysolutions to problems that exist in their business. Yeah t does this. Youknow, for example, in many minmarket sale cycles. The Demo is like thesecond thing that happens. You know you have a discovery. Call it's forty fiveminutes. You do all the things that you've just said. Maybe you haven'tsaid, don't do them, but you said that they are commodity. Things to do liketell me about your problems. Tell me about your day. You know walk methrough what your greatest struggles are. What's keeping you up at night andthen the next thing that happens is you try to move into a demo and the contextI mean, as it says, it's a demo. It's a demonstration you're supposed to sortof do a screenshare or maybe meet them in person, show them the platform andthat's kind of like the in some ways the apex of the sale cycle, which isyou know? Okay, I askd you a bunch of questions, see my softwork can solvethou h the answers to those questions. Do you delay the demo? Do yourestructure the the entire flow of the sales or Customer Journey Presale? Howdo you take these ideas, not just from a content marketing perspective butfrom Selves Process Perspective and put them into action? Sois, a written 's, areally good question and not not an easy one to solve. I would say thefirst thing is the people that are...

...ready to jump on a demo and as much aswe get excited about about those people again. Those are the people that havealready made the decision to change most of the time. So they've got afunded initionship in the organization. They are in a vendous selection mode atthat point in time and there's nothing wrong with those guys. My contestionsat those are just a very, very small proportion of the opportunity for mostsolution providers and we invest all of our effort in trying to get somebody.WHO's already made a decision to change, to try and compel them that they'vemade the right decision, which is to change so nothing wrong with with demos,nothing wrong with kind of being good at temals, and even going a stepfurther with that, but I would say, as it petains to the rest of theopportunity to eighty percent would ose to do nothing in those situations. I dowant to partner with the sales organization carefully I want to spend.I listen to sales calls I like to go along to sales meetings, and I oftenencourage at that early stage, unstructured conversation I'm trying toget to the heart of the matter of why somebody took the meeting in the firstplace. You know what is actually going on in their organization. That meansthat you know they may not be able, to wit, their finger on it, but there'sthere's a compelling need for changer that we need to articulate togetheruntil we get to a point where they say you know what there's our magic moment.If you can help us to do that thing, then you're the natural partner Tipisi,because that is an actural issue for us. So early on. I want to move salespeople away from the goal being to finish a presentation o to to move awayfrom it being to get them to agree to a Demor to somehow quantifying, or atleast getting into a point where the sales person feels confident that thisprospect is ready to change, and if I could figure out a formula of how tokind of consistently get sales people to tell me with confidence that theymay not choose us, but they're definitely going to choose somebody,because I was able to articulate value to them and to show them a serious flawin the way that they're currently approaching their process that they arenow going to make a change in their business. If we can make thatrepeatable across Audestia and marketing and demonjen functions, thenwe will be gowing businesses because now you're creating demand for thefirst time you're, not just double clicking on somebody. That's alreadymade the decision to change, that's invended selection, mode, yeah, andthat's to your point I mean inbound marketing. Oftentimes people, love in Boun leads,but it's the same thing: their inventor selection mode right. They became alead in all likelihood because they're becoming a lead for a lot of people, Yeexactly definitionaly competitive. So that's the beauty of out bound sales.You've decided they're a good fit based on the profile in the persona, and thenhopefully your messaging can help you get in there. That's right you've madeit pretty clear that walking in the shoes of the customers important. Howdoes this impact? I guess you have a point of view on hiring sales, peopleor marketing people from industry, or is it really about the training andsort of investing heavily and onboarding so that you can take peoplethat don't practicularly, have industry background and mould them in sculp themand help them understand? The context of the buyer that they're selling to sothat's O Arge, I'm in two mins about this I'll, tell you what, when it comesto strs when I've been building out those teams, I didn't take people thatwere coming from from industry at all. I took people that were coming fromrecruitment and tmost times of people that were coming from the hospitality,because I liked people who could create a report and Duid a relationship withcustomers with it. I could train them effectively on understanding how toapproach the customer and to coach them into thinking and empathizing with thecustomer and really articulating with value. But what I really needed was therul ingredients of somebody who can create relationship with customers andwho customers can feel comfortable with, but then somebody who's also curious tolearn. How do our customers making money not just to what do we do and howcan we help them to be more successful and help them to grow? So I'm not I'mnot a sickler for hiring from industry, I'd rather hihe from parallel ortengental verticals, where there is a best practice around cradialrelationships. pactically at thesdr stage makes sense so Monya, I thinkwe're sort of coming to the end of our time. Together for this session, I'msure there will be future sessions. One of the, as I say, one of the things welike to do is sort of pay it forward and understand how you became you alittle bit and and sort of hear about some of your influences. Some of yourmentors. I know that you've had them, there's sort of one person that youmentioned the other night that I want everybody to hear about, and thenthere's a professor, so tell us a little bit about the people that havehelped. You come to these realizations and formulate these opinions, so we cando a little bit of research and celebrate them a little bit sure thefirst guy that I want to pay home uch to- and I would never claim to havecome up with these ideas- is Tim Restra who's, the chief strategy officer atcorporate visions, Tims of phenomenal guy, his ideas on prospect, theory andbehavioral science as it pertains to marketing and messaging, really reallytransformed my perspective. I remember sitting in a conference when I saw himspeak for the first time and making the decision to change it was that good? Icame back and I sat ou exacting down at...

...the time and I said Guys D we've beengetting it all wrong. We've been trying to talk about who we are and what we doand it's time for us to really really double click on the you know,understanding how our customers lives are at risk unless we come in and andthen articulate that advantage to them. So Tim has been a phenomenal to me.We've Weve subsequently done weabinars together, I'm a fan of his books, so Iwould definitely say that three value conversations is one of the thefantastic game, Changin kind of assets that I've taken op and recently I spentsome time. I think I mentioned that the University of Cambridge with ProfessorEd in Hein again looking at prospect, theory and understanding, you know howdo you define need? What is that equation if you could simplify it? Thatmeans that we can begin to understand the key drivers that mean people reacha consensus decision and be to B and make that in our favor, so soprofessory in fantastic research in the world of favorol economics and prospecttheory again, and I've taken those kind of two influences and really built apractice around messaging, so om forever grateful to them and will shotabout that miny opportunity. I get very good any books or content that you'reconsuming. That's been particularly influential that we should be aware ofyeah. I view guess it's not a question o asked me John O Burgeris contagious.I think it's a fantastic book about why things go viral. I think it's a rightof passage for every kind of demanden led marketer. He gives you a very, verygood land to wish to think about how to Croft programs that give customersvalue that give them social currency that make sure that things go bigger.So I'd say: that's a fantastic book, one of my kind of repeated reeds andthen most recently thinking fast, an slow by Dan, has helped me again toreinforce these ideas around prospectheory and Paboi Calics, verygood Dan conneman thank Yoa Fat, slow, great book parting words. Life Mottos. Give ussomething inspirational to leave us with I'd, say one of the things that Ireally believe in is. We should all discover what our strength is and kindof stay in that box. We're not all always going to be good at everything.I don't think we should feel under pressure to be good at everything. Ithink we should delegate all the stuff. That's not in our core capability. YouKnow Samuel and my weaknesses are somebody's opportunity and I think weshould. We should resist the impulse because we're in charge because we'reresponsible, because we have remit to keep ahold of of things that are not inthe center of what ous our cose trength and capability and to delegate thatstuff out to somebody WHO's dying in a corner somewhere, hoping that you givethem the opportunity to have a go at it. So I'd say: Double Click on you,strengths and delicate your weaknesses, so yeah, okay, I believe it last thingwhen Yo, I'm sure people o that are listening to this have been inspired.They have questions. Maybe they want to have a conversation or coffee with you.If people want to reach out to you a is that okay and be what's your preferredmechanism or channel Hey? That is okay and be if you can connect with me onlinkedin massively off. For that. I take h m almost all connections thatcome my way so happy to. Is it Muno hotel at Lingdon, or is it when youread to Yo? What is it? It's Miorazi Hotel, Ian, a Yo hotelyeah. So that'sthat's! That's the easy place to go and yeah. We can take it from ther, I'malways king, to meet New People and especially people that are building adesruptive or category creating software. Wonderful. When you thank somuch for your time on the sale, sacer podcast, we really appreciate it. Thankyou very much, son everybody. This is SAM's corner.Munyahoto has a lot of really really insightful ideas about marketing, and Ihope I hope it got your head spinning a little bit and that you're thinkingabout the concepts. Let me walk you through a couple key ideas- and this isnot some of these aren't just new they're, just they're just repackagedin really interesting and useful ways. First thing is we all love in Bounleads, but you got to understand what does that mean that they're an Invanlead? It means that they have decided that they have pain and they areactively seeking to remedy that pain. That's okay, but it means that you're,probably not the only person that they're seeking to remedy that painwith once you're out there searching on the Internet there's a lot of differentoptions, especially if your competitors are. You know advertising on Googleright above your search result. So the first thing is: You have to understandthat an inbound lead, they're, very valuable and maybe in certain sales andif you're, just an expert demand en marketer they're not going to becompetitive, comparison shopping, but most of the time they will be, and thatmeans that you're going to compete on price. That means that you're going tobe chiselled, which is a word that I use a lot and reduced, and so that'sokay. We need that money. We need that business and we need that content. Thecontent marketing that drives Theinboun Lens, but we really have to understand.That's why outbound is valuable. AP On is valuable because you've decidedtheyre a fit and you can control the experience in a way that you can't whenthey're an invound late. So that's one...

...thing to think about related to that.Menyo pointed out stated needs right. So when you ask what's your datodaylike what's keeping you up at night, just remember, they are saying the sameanswer to the market. To everybody. andthat means that they're alreadyputting you in a box and that box is a commodity box, and so that's why youhave to lead, as Challenger tells us with commercial insight. You have to beprovocative and you have to teach them something new about their business thatreframes their world because you have to move into the undiscovered needs.Wrigte, the unknown undiscovered needs, that's where eighty percent that's whenhe says you know, eighty percent of your crm is lost, but has undiscoveredneeds and chooses to do nothing he's just talking about traditional win,rigts right. If it's a well qualified opportunity, we expect to win one outof five times four out of five times they choose to do nothing. So howthat's the opportunity? How do we get the people that our competitors aren'teven working at? How do we get those people to change? Yes within the twentypercent of the deals that we win? Yes, they've decided to change. They we'rein a bakeoff. It's going to be a competitive situation. Many of the time,especially in be to be Sass, where you know we're all selling similarsolutions or there's three providers in a specific category. So that's okay. Wewant to win those deals. We have to win those deals, that's the hard way butthink about how to go where they ain't. As they say, how do you go where yourcompetitors aren't one of the ways that you do, that is by provokingundiscovered needs and being provocative and sales conversations. Idon't mean provocative, like swearing or being an asshole, I mean beingprovocative by delivering unique insights that the prospects hadn'tconsidered and get people that weren't going to do anything, get them sizethat at size and speed. That's what Lunia says frame that that opportunityframe that pain in a way that makes not changing untenable and again the onlyway that you're also going to do that as you're talking to somebody thatgives a shit and the people that give a shit tend to be the more senior people.The most junior people often times do not give a shit so try to move higherin the conversation and Wewe need to get those mobilizers like bread, Adamsand says, but move higher in the conversation and then and then try tounlock that. Eighty percent try to change your win lost raite by usingmessaging. That makes the that sort of speaks to and addresses undiscoveredneeds, rather than stated nee. So this has been Sam's corner before we go. Wealso always have to think all of the sponsors and all of the people so tocheck out, show notes, see upcoming guests. That's actually not true. Idon't think that we have upcoming guests on that Web page, but we haveprevious guests so check out, show notes, see previous guests and playmore episodes from our incredible line. UPOVE sales and marketing leaders andother inspirational figures visit sales hackercom and head to the PODCAST TAB.You'll find us on itunes of Google play. If you enjoye the episode, please doshare it with your peers on Linkein, twitter or elsewhere. So just clickthat share. It's really easy to do and we appreciate it and if you want to getin touch with me, find me on twitter, at Sam of Jacobs or on Linkdon atLinkoncom, slash the word in and then slash and then Sam f Jacobs and, as youcan tell from the intro where I thinked all of our fans. I really do appreciateit. We appreciate t the team there's a team here, that's working really reallyhard. Thank the team includes a bunch of different people that I can't nameright now, but I will name next week but they're amazing. The sales hactorteam and the outreach team are absolutely amazing to work with. Andfinally, thanks to our sponsors, that's air call your advance count. Centersoftware, complete business phone and contact center, a hundred percentnatively integrated into any serum and outreach, a customer engagementplatform that efficiently and effectively engages prospects to drivemore pipeline and close more deals and also positions you as a salesperson asthoughtful, intelligent and capable of delivering unique and persona lizeinsights. So that's what Ou Rucyou can do for you. I will see you next time,thanks for listening to me, Talk.

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