The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

38: Why You Should Focus on Customers Unstated Needs w/ Munya Hoto, Digital Marketing Director, Foundry

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This week on the Sales Hacker podcast, we talk to Munya Hoto, Digital Marketing Director at Foundry and a Founding Member of the London Revenue Collective. Munya is an "accidental" marketer who comes to marketing from an economics background and who has helped develop unique insights into how to expand the market opportunity for growing companies.

One, two, one, three, three. Fo Hey everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the saleshacker podcast. I am your host. I am also the founder of therevenue collective and we are now in New York, London, Boston, Denver, Toronto and Amsterdam, thanks Andre Brussel, and we're going to be over thecourse of two thousand and nineteen expanding to most of the major cities inthe world, I would expect. So that's exciting. And then I'm alsothe chief Revenue Officer of a company that's growing by a massive percentage every year, focus on the machine learning and behavioral people in Alytic Space, and that'scalled behave oks. So today on the show we're super excited. We've gotone of the founding members the London revenue collective, a guy named Munyaratzijoto fromZimbabwe. A short name for him is Munya. So Munya Hote is adigital marketer and Munya has an economics degree in background and brings a lot ofreally interesting insights about how to think about selling to people and why a lotof what we're doing is just you know, you'll hear it all the time whenyou sort of listen to sophisticated sales leaders, but speeds and feeds sellingfeatures and selling core product functionality just doesn't work. It's a commodity. Imean it works. You're going to be a price dweller, you're going tobe competing on price because you're not going to create enough value. So Munateaches us in this episode how to move beyond what people tell you their problemsare and teach them about what their problems actually are. And a lot ofthis has to do with some of the concepts that we heard from last week, from Brent Adamson around the Challenger Sale, when you came up with this stuffsort of on his own and actually didn't even hasn't yet sort of beena student of Challenger methodology, but it's a lot of the same ideas.If you just going off of what the prospect says, you're probably going todo it wrong. So he'll tell us all about that. Now before weget started, as always, we want to thank our sponsors. The firstis air call. Air Call as a phone system designed for the modern salesteam. Of course, they seamlessly and magically integrate with your crm. Theyeliminate data entry for your Reps. they provide you with greater visibility into yourteam's performance. They've been an outstanding supporter of the Sales Hacker podcast, sowe really are appreciative of the work. They're originally a French company, growingmassively in the US thanks to some of the work that Jeff Freakers is doing. And when it's time to scale with air call you can add new linesand minutes. It doesn't take very much at all. You can use incall coaching to reduce ramp time. So visit are called DOT IO. Forwardsales hacker to see why. A bunch of amazing companies like Uber done andBrad Street, pipe drive and many others use them to power their most criticalsales conversations. Our second sponsor is outreach, the leading sales engagement platform. Outreachtriples the productivity of sales teams and empowers them and you to drive predictableand measurable Revenue Growth. Outreach has been growing by leaps and bounds. Outreachacquired sales hacker the company earlier in two thousand and eighteen, but really theproduct and the category is exploding. Sales enablement, sales development, all ofit is just very, very powerful outreach does that by helping you prioritize theright activities, scaling customer engagement. It's an enterprise ready platform, so itcan scale for the biggest companies, but it can also be for, youknow, for a very small company. They've got intelligent automation, they've gotamazing analytics and DASHBOARDS, they've got a great team, they've got a productdriven founder and Manny Medina, and of course they are just an incredible company. So go over to outreach, dot io forward sales hacker to see howthousands of customers, some of them include glass door, cloud, Dara PandoraZillo, rely on outreach to deliver higher revenue for sales rep that's outreach,dot io forward slash sales hacker. Finally, let's thank a bunch of you amazingfans and and I want to talk to you about what's possible. Soone of the people I want to mention is or in Freedman. Or inreached out to me and has a lot of really interesting insights on podcast formats, and so I said, what do you think we should do different andhe said how about like a Joe Rogan style long form interview? And Ithink that that's really, really interesting and so trying to we're going to tryand pick a few, one or two people. Maybe do it on aweekend or something. But have you know something that's a little bit longer thanthirty or thirty five or forty minutes? So thanks or in for the feedback. Also want to thank Chase Carter. Chase works at Pendo and chase got, you know, his cro bill to be a guest on the podcast.So that's coming up. So if you've got a sales leader or you gotsomebody that you think is super interesting that you think should be a guest,send them our way. But Chase helped us do that. Harrison Johnson andJustin Ingram are up at starburst data and Boston and they heard about the Bostonrevenue collective through the podcast and they also listen to the podcast. So again, all kinds of different ways of a reaching out and contributing, I fear, in a city that you think needs a revenue collective, or you've gota boss or a leader or a mentor that you think should be a guest, or you just have suggestions because you think I'm an idiot. Many peoplethink I'm an idiot and I'm not offended anymore at this point. I'm justtoo old and too tired. So Chase Uren, but also and Harrison,but also or Harry, and Justin Ingram, but also timothy, Hartnett, Brennan, Santos, Jack Aguilar Casey from...

...thank you so much, Murray Sharp, Scott, Turko, Ben Hoganson and Nate Brascom from Chili Piper. Thankyou all for listening. Please give your feedback. Please find me on Linkedin. We really really appreciate the support. share the episodes and the content thatyou think is interesting and tell your friends so that we can continue to growand we can get better and better guests. So that's my thanks to all ofthe fans out there and without further ado, let us listen to Munyahote who's absolutely an amazing marketer and this should be a great interview. Hey, everybody, it's Sam Jacobs, your friendly neighborhood podcast host. Welcome backto the sales hacker podcast. We are really, really excited today to havesomebody that I recently met that's been really influential and sort of how I approachthe world of marketing. He's also a founding member of the London revenue collective, and his insights on marketing are really, really I don't know if they're controversial, but they're unique and they're incredibly helpful when you're thinking about messaging.So, without further do let's let's talk about my guests today. His nameis Munya Hotel. He describes himself as a Zimbabwe born accidental marketer. Currentlyhe is the digital marketing director at foundry, which is an award winning software providerin computer graphics, Visual Effects, gaming and design. And then,prior to foundry, he was on the founding team at Ideo, it's acontent intelligence platform, where he was svp of marketing, reporting directly to theCEO. That is essentially where he learned the skill and the craft and beganto apply some of his ideas to marketing. And then before that he graduated fromthe University of Exeter here in the UK, where we're recording this,with an MSC in economics and an honors degree, and he's he's done alot of very important work at Cambridge University, which we'll talk about. So,Munia, welcome to the show. Sam, thank you very much forhaving me. We're excited to have you so what we like to do whenwe get started is we like to just we call it the baseball card,but we learned. We like to learn a little bit about you, asort of where you're working, a little bit about that company. So firsttell us about your full name is Munoadzi. Is that right? That's correct.Okay, good. And your title is digital marketing director at foundry.Also correct. That's right. Okay. Tell us about foundry. What isfoundry? You mentioned when I saw you on Wednesday. You guys are breakingout of sort of like the film world, where I think you've wanted some awardsthat you'll tell us about, and into new category. So tell us. What is foundry? What do you do there? How big is thecompany? Walk us through that a little bit. So foundry is a producerof visual effect software, mostly focused on the movie, gaming and kind ofepisodic TV industry. It's been around for twenty years. Prior to about twoyears ago it was known as the foundry. So if you ask anybody about thefoundry in the industry, that's probably what they identify with. But wedropped the the in a rebrand, which was not easy to kind of pulloff, but it was much easier for our content writers to be able tokind of insert that into pr release and that kind of thing. But ifyou've watched a movie or a TV series in the last say, twenty years, you've probably seen some of ours tool kit in action. Nuke flagship producthas become the de factor industry standard within the movie industry for compositing and actuallythis here for the first time actually won its own academy award at the sideTech Awards at the Oscars. Wow. Yeah, did you get to goto the Oscars? No, we sent the product team that works on nuke. I think I would have loved to be the one to go up there, but it was a real special moment for the for the kind of hardworking guys would come in and go into the basement and come up with thisreally, really cool stuff. So we sent with each charity. If youdo end up going to the Oscars, can I be your a Sam?I'm sure I'd be the lucky one in that situation. That's very kind ofyou to say. So it's visual effects for films, which is and thenyou mentioned that you're sort of applying the technology to new industry. So tellus a little bit about that. Yeah, the really cool thing right is weproductized in film and TV, but at its core what our suite ofproducts is able to do is it allows you to visualize incredible ideas. Sowhen you elevate it to that that level, you find out their loads of industrieswhere there's a lot of legacy kind of process around bringing ideas to life. If you think about industries where people are sketching, Pencil, crafting modelsand clay, then our software becomes really, really powerful. So one of theareas that we're expanding into at the moment is in footwear design, wherewe're helping footwear brands and some of the largest in the world move away fromsketchy and Pencil into D to actually visualizing their ideas and looking at different typesand formats of the of the products that they make in D and in aand V are. So that's one of the new applications and it's a reallyexciting space, much as for us, but even for the customers as well, because it's really really helping them to get to market faster and to seea lot more versatility in their design process. That's exciting. So how big isfoundry and is it it's okay if...

...it's not. But is it aSASS business? Is a recurring revenue business or is it more transactional revenue?What's the business model? So foundry is about three hundred people and we operatein kind of a for revenue scenarios, if you can believe that. Soin our core business we still have a perpetual licensing model with maintenance can ofstating on the top of that. But we do have subscription products on thelower end of our price point. So some of our sculpting, texturing andpaging tools, those can be bought on an annual license on a subscription model. And then we've got some of our enterprise play which can be multier reoccurringdeals. So we've got the whole suite, even self transacting kind of self servinglower price point tool sets that customers can just buy on their own aswell that are on a subscription model. And you're you're not really a venturebacked but you're sort of private equity. Back to that right. That's right. Well, foundry began its life as a venture backed asset and then afew years into that journey carlisle came along and or alcohol company in a Pekind of management buy out and then that then led to about five years journeywith with Carlisle and then about four years ago the London based private I wouldyou fund a Hg capital bought foundry from Carlisle and so we're a P backedasset out of London at the moment. Well, I guess you weren't reallythere when when I was venture back. But have you having been at ventureback companies? I would have you been at venture back companies? Are Exclusivelyprivate equity back companies in your career so far? So I have been anadventure backed assets, in fact an ideo. We initially we were kind of seedbacked by some angels and then we took on some Venc cut some venturecapital with a notion capital, who might be well, of course notion,and that was a fantastic journey with notion. So yeah, I've been I've beenin on the inside of a venture backdasset before. Is there a differencein your experience, just as being a senior operator, between venture and privateequity, that you can tell or you just do your thing and you don'treally care who what the CAP tables? Then yeah, there is. Thereis out say the main difference is the ubiquity of cash. In the eventualworld. I think you can you're always feeling that tension of you know,how long have we got? What's all runaway, how much we bring in, whereas in the Pe back world you really setting the plant up front andnot really worrying about the fact that you might run out of cash, becausethat's not really a dynamic that comes into play in the same way as ifyou're an adventure backed asset. Huh, is that because you're profitable or justbecause they've said they'll under write you no matter what? Well, it's theirbusiness. They minded to keep it going. But actually the good news is thatoften times in the PE world you already at a point where you're profitableand you really looking at multiple ways to expand that business, either in organicalorganically. So cash generally is not a challenge. That's really interesting. Ilike how exactly your point is is well and put, which is it's theirbusiness and adventure. There are not typically majority shareholders. So the foundry ishow big is foundry? Just from a I guess we're in London recording this, so you can tell me in terms of pounds or euros or US dollars. But how big is it? So foundry is on about a I thinka fifteen million pound run rate, fifty million pounds. At previous exchange ratesthat would be seventy million US dollars. Now it's probably closer to sixty,but still pretty big. Yeah, still pretty big and it's about three hundredpeople, like I said, so really tighten it while functioning team that's helpingto deliver that value to to the shareholder. That's great. Well, well,mania, thank you for that overview of the business. You know,you describe yourself as as an accidental marketer. Walk us through, I guess.I mean it's always interesting to hear you grew up in Zimbabwe, howyou made it from Zimbabwe first to the University of Exeter, but also tothe point of sort of this conversation why coming out of Exeter. You know, you sort of describe yourself as an accidental marketer and how you're applying someof the concepts of economics to the world of marketing. That story is really, really interesting, so would love for you to share it with us.Yeah, so I am Zimbabwe and born and I encourage anybody that's listening tothis podcast to spend some time down there. It's really beautiful. We obviously haveone of the seven natural wonders of the world down dead the Victoria Falls. But I loved Zim at about the right age of eighteen to come outto the University of Exeter to come and study economics. The reason I choseeconomics was I really didn't know what I wanted to study and somebody kind ofwhispered in my ear that he is a discipline that if you study this you'llbe able to walk into any field with some level of understanding of how abusiness operates. So the goal was to be as broad and kind of generousas possible and that was the reason for stepping into that in the first place. Turns out I loved it. I loved the prince pulls of it andthe way it made you think about kind of prospects and customers as rational economicagents. Initially so it was during my first share there that I met upwith the CO founders an idio, who were trying to build this software company, and one of the things that I brought to the table at that timewas a real simple view of the world which I think often times when you'rein marketing, may not always exist, and so we were taught very earlyon in the economics principles classes that buyers,...

...customers are just to rational economic agentsthat are trying to optimize their utility given their constraints, which means thatthey're trying to get as much value as possible out of the thing that you'retrying to provide them against the constraints that they have in their universe. Thatcould be budgetary, it could be time, it could be other resources. Sohow do you position your story, your product in such a way thatthe customer or the prospect feels that they're getting the maximum value for the leastamount of investment? And so, taking that into consideration, had always bethinking that way. I wasn't trained classically in anything like branding or PR orany of those really, really cool disciplines at other marketers. Are Real strengthsand but what I was capable of doing was taking a perspective on the customer. That meant that I was always trying to get to the heart of theissue rather than trying to kind of embellish or present our product in a waythat was more compelled. I just wanted them to feel like if they chooseus as a natural proder to do business with, they're going to get amaximum value. Interesting. So how do you do that? And for thosethat are are not in my brain, which is the entirety of the universe, Moon here and I were in a messaging workshop on Wednesday evening as partof the London revenue collective, where moon you sort of walk through some ofhis core messaging ideas. So tell us how do you help the prospect orthe customer get maximum value and how does that impact the marketing messaging that youbring to market as a company making a product? It's a fantastic questions andI think when I think about prospects and customers, in fact when I whenI talk to you, we started our workshop at the London revenue collective byplaying a little kind of game where we were looking at whether or not wein the room were rational agents ourselves. Kind of a lottery game, andif this time, maybe one day we'll play on one of our feature discussions. But, but, but the basic for the basic premise of power approachmarketing is to think about how prospects or customers, how the brain is operatingas they confront or encounter the messages that we're putting in front of them.And the very, very first thing that I introduced into the discussion that wewere having on Wednesday is a prospects and customers are three times more likely tomove away from a pain than to move towards a game. But that's itsinstall contrast to a lot of the messaging that you will encounter, particularly inB to B, where a lot of the websites of vendor and solution providersare talking about how much they can improve certain outcomes, how they can improveperformance. But actually that's not motivating the to know the prospect at all.In fact, it's actually reinforcing their decision to do nothing rather than to actuallymake a decision to change. So in helping not just the businesses that Ioperate in today as a foundry, but some of our partners from the Londonrevenue collective and other venture backed and pedibacked assets, help them to start tothink more carefully about how to position their message in front of customers that thecustomer is motivated first of all to change, not necessarily to choose them as thenatural partners to business with, because the hurdle that most businesses face isnot about being selected as one of the solution providers in a competitive bakeoff,but it's actually getting customers to change in the first place, because most ofus who are selling software to to customers are losing to the status quo morethan we're losing to the competition, in fact about eighty percent of the time. How do you motivate people to change? You mentioned the sort of three timesmore likely to move away to resist a loss. Is that right inmy expect right here? correctulate. Yeah, how do you frame that and theright way, and maybe walk us through you know you we've discussed inthe past sort of like the difference between stated needs and kind of unconsidered needs. So walk us that framework a little bit. Okay. So the firstthing that most kind of sales and marketing people do, and and you'll correctme if I'm wrong, but I've run an STR team before and I've supporta lot of sales leaders, the first thing that we often do when weget under discovery or we're meeting customers for the first time, is we askthem to tell us what their problem is. You know, what are you strugglingwith? What's hard about your job at the moment and because they askthat question a lot, but a lot of service providers they've got an answerfor that question and those of their stated needs. Those are the things thatthey know to tell you. Unfortunately, those things they've already aligned them withwhat they think your capabilities are as a solutions provider. And the issue withasking about those things, this voice of the customer feedback about their needs thatthey that they understand, is that that message is already become a commodity anddoes not motivate them to change. It actually reinforces them to stay in theircurrent way of working because actually that set of circumstances that they currently operating withsomebody's good idea, somebody in the organization came up with a strategy, cameup with a plan that has engineered them into that position and even though they'retelling you that it's a problem, they actually not minded to change very much. So in the very beginning we're always trying to figure out what are theunconsidered needs that the customer is not discussing or not revealing in those conversations,and the unconsidered needs come in kind of...

...three types. There is the undervaluedunconsidered need, which is the thing where they kind of feel like it's aproblem but they haven't really identified clearly the size and speed of that problem intheir organization and as such, they feel like they can lint along with itquite comfortably and not have to change. The second one is the unmet unconsideredneed. This is where the organization has created a workaround. They've got athey've got a manual process that they've put in place and they quite comfortable thatway of working. They know it's not best in practice, they know stopperfect, but who's perfect? And they okay with it. And then thethird one is the unknown unconsidered need, where they don't even know they havethat problem. And so the goal in messaging, in training sales people,in putting out our distinct point of view to the marketplace, is to matchthose unconsidered need with what I would class as your or my unspecified capabilities.And I'll give you a very simple example. When people think about foundry, theythink about foundry within the context of visual effects for films and gaming andTV, but actually, like we discussed, there is a an unspecified capability therethat's actually very, very useful to footwear brands who today, in orderto bring a shoe to life, are having to draw it in Pencil,modulated in clay and ship samples from the US or from the UK to China, back and forth, and that process is riddled with all kinds of unconsideredneeds and inefficiencies. So when we begin to talk to them about those issuesrather than just telling them that you can design a shoe better, suddenly we'veidentified and unconsidered need and also introduced a distinct point of view. We talkedabout this before, but this is similar, although you know sort of the ideashere are both very, very powerful, a little bit you know, andsimilar to some of the ideas that we hear about and Challenger where you'resort of trying to lead with commercial insight and particularly on sort of like theundervalued. Maybe they've stated they have an idea of a problem, but maybethey're characterizing it as an efficiency and they're not really considering the size scope,as you said, the size and the speed. Is that right? That'sright, of that problem, the magnitude of that problem, and you areyou have a great example from your days. That idea. Walk us through sortof how you guys, your content management system, if I'm not,if I'm not mistaken, how you took data from the market and transformed itinto messaging that directly sort of stoked the pain of an unconsidered need and thenand then ultimately help us tie that back to, you know, business performanceand sales growth, right. Yeah, so idio, which is still growing, fantastic tool. said that, the team's built over there is a constantintelligence platform and, very simply, what idiot is able to do is it'sable to build a unique interest profile about you, Sam based on what you'rereading, and then is able to query that unique data, said, inorder to give you the next best piece of content the next time you visitthat particular website or you open the next email that's coming or being delivered toyou via exact target or mocking automation like Marquette or Alloquo, this kind ofthing. So we were looking at entering the wealth and asset management space becausewe had a distinct point of view of I was getting on there. Themessage that wasn't going to work was about personalization and improving the click through rateson emails and clicks on calls to actually on a website by thirty or thirtyfive percent. Although that would have been an interesting or good improvement, itwasn't something that was sufficiently loosening the status quo and creating urgency and uniqueness,because the challenge they had was bigger than just getting people to personalization on thewebsite. The biggest challenge they had was about why are we producing content that'sirrelevant in the first place? So walk that back and kind of explined ina bit more detail, please do. I love it. So, ifyou think about the the wealth and asset management space, that's a highly competitivespace and the way that people choose which funds to go with is that theyread content. As a result, JP Morgan, alliance, Burnstein, statesteglobal advisors, black prop are all producing loads and loads of reports content inorder to not be missing from any conversation when the customer comes searching for content, as it pretends to oil and gas, renewables, energy mining, etc.So the challenge is that they end up producing a lot of content thatnobody ever ends up reading. In fact, the statistic around that floats around aboutunder utilized or unused contents. It's at about sixty to seventy percent.When we spend time with these brands, we found out that eighty to ninetypercent of their content actually set. I'm used no one ever saw it onour website or in an email, but they were investing all of this moneyinto producing this content. And then, when you've got so much content andyou're producing it at such a high pace, be to to take comparatitively relevant.You think that the solution to your problem is personalization, because you're thinking, Huh, if I can just put the right content in front of theright person, even though I've got this huge, broad library of content,then that's going to mean we're going to be more efficient in terms of howwe're using that content. But actually that...

...was actually the small end of theproblem. The big problem is why are you investing millions and millions of dollarsa year producing that content in the first place? And the unspecified capability thatidio has is that any is able to tell you not only which content youshould serve the customer, which is the output of its engine, but internallyit's able to tell you which topics are read the most by your customer baseand actually begin to inform your editorial and content team about what content to producein the first place. So now you go away from trying to optimize onan inefficiency to actually creating the right content right out of the out of thebox. And the saving for them was multiple millions of dollars when they startedthinking about how to produce the right content in the first place, not justtrying to personalize this huge library of irrelevant content that they were creating. Andso we were able to not only expose that undervalued, unconsidered need around contentproduction, not personalization, and then put an actual size and a speed tothat problem, because they were telling us that their biggest challenge from a marketingperspective was budget, and then we were able to show them that actually,when eighty percent of their content sits unread, they're wasting up to, and I'mgoing to kind of aggregate this, between eight and ten million dollars ayear in wasted budget on producing content that nobody actually ends up reading. Sothe natural decision to go with us in order to inform the editorial content teamwhat to produce in the first place was and wasn't easy one at that point. It's a great story because, to your point, they're telling you,well, you know we don't have enough budget to address the solution, andyou're saying, well, you know you're spending ten million dollars more than youneed to. I'm sure we can find a couple Hundredzero for idio within theten million dollars that we're going to save you over the course of the nextone to two years. Is that right? That's right, that's right. Andthen that story became powerful when we were going into other people that looka lot like that particular asset manager, because again, they all have thesame problem. And customers and believe something about you and I that sometimes wedon't even know about ourselves. Customers believe that you and I see more peoplethat look like them that they do. So as a result, they believeus when we tell them about a trend or a change that's happening in theirmarket place because, again, they really believe that we see more people thatlook like them. We have an understanding of the market from a macro perspectivebecause we are spending every day solving these challenges. So when we say tothem you don't have to struggle at eighty to ninety percent of content under utilization, they take that seriously because again, they know that their competitor, wholooks not like them, is working with us to solve that problem. Sonow again you're loosening the status Quale, you're creating urgency and uniqueness, andthen, once they compelled with the need to change, you can then beginto differentiate your solution and that's where you're specified and state of capabilities can thencome into into class. How do how do you? I mean, it'sreally, really interesting. I guess sounds like there's how do you operationalize thisconcept and and what do you give? Is this all sort of at thetop of the funnel when it comes to content marketing? Are there tools orspecific what are the tools? That are the arrows that you give to thesalesperson's quiver to help them instigate this kind of conversation? So first of all, I think you have to go at lay a deeper in terms of understanding. What are the blockers in our way right what is stopping the prospect fromeven making the decision to change? And there's about four things that I thinkevery salesperson, every marketer, should know before they launch, that SDR discovery, called before they even begin to craft and editorial and content strategy, andthose it's four pillars really that I typically look at, and these are thethings that if you don't confront these in your sales deck, on your website, you know, editorial and cold of strategy, you're not going to besuccessful. So here they are. The firstest preference stability. We know thatcustomers are eighty percent of the time they're more likely to do nothing than tochoose any supply, and you'll know this by analyzing your crm. Eighty percentof qualified opportunities end up choosing to make no decision, and that's because thecustomer has has retreated back to their current way of working. So the firstthing we need to be telling our sales people is be aware that the thingthat you're going to confront today, as you go into that conversation, issomebody who's wedded to the status quo and somebody who's preferences are so stable thatyou have to come with a provocative and unique point of view that makes themthink that there is a flaw in the way that they approaching their current businessprocess and make it an existential flaw, like a mortal wound. That meansthat they didn't just feel like, Oh, okay, that's bad for us thisquarter, but like we continue down this path, we're not going tobe in business in two to three years. The second thing is that all prospectshave anticipated regret when they're thinking about a new partner, a new solutionthat they're trying to kind of introduce into their process, and anticipated regret isabout, what if this doesn't work? You know, when you're telling usall this great stuff about how we're going to know what to write first andthat's going to, let you know, kind of improve our utilization of content, what if this all goes wrong? I'm the one who's on the linehere, is the sponsor of this deal. So how do you help your prospectand your customer to feel comfortable that...

...the cost of change is less thanthe cost of staying in the same because as you walk into that conversation,the cost of staying the same looks negligible. You know they've already discounted it,perhaps even down to zero. They feel like there's no cost to ourcurrent operational process. But the moment that I introduce in new technology, Ihave to consider training, I have to consider resourcing. So they've got thisanticipated regret that if we make all of these investments in it goes wrong,somebody's going to be on the line for that in that person looks like me. The third thing that they're feeling about again is the anticipated they worried aboutthe perceived cost of change, which I just talked about. This looks hard, not just from a cost and investment perspective, but how do I getthe oranization as a whole to come with me? How do I get mymanagers to come with me, but I get my fellow decision makers to comealong with this? That perceived cost of change and that that challenge of gettingthe organization to kind of go with this again is hard and we don't oftenequip ourselves people to be having that conversation. That empathizes with our sponsors when we'rerunning a deal to say, you know what, I want you toknow that this is hard. I see a lot of people that look alot like you and it was hard for them as well, but we gavethem they structured and with mythological step through that help them to go from beingin this position that during today to being a successful hero to the organization.And then, finally, you've got this challenge of selection difficulty. The reasonwhy our prospects often also fall away from from doing a deal is because theyconfuse. They overwhelmed with choice overload, because initially we talked about what we'recapable of doing in the relay, in all of these value added services,because we're trying to get the deal done. But actually it's more important to besurgical and be very, very clear how you are a resolution to theunconsidered need that you've surfaced and making that the first step for them to begina journey with you. So, bringing that to how do you operationalize that? Once you've laid the foundation of those unconsidered needs, you've discovered how you'regoing to specifically destabilize their preferences, you're going to resolve for that anticipated regretby making them the hero of the story. They're going to prove that the costof change is less than the cost of staying the same, and you'regoing to sufficiently differentiate so that your solution becomes the natural next step to gettingthem out of the situation to find themselves in. You then, on topof that, begin to Croft messaging for the website. You begin to createan editorial cuntal strategy that says all white paper is going to be focused onthese issues, because we know these cause customers to want to change. Yourstalls are now acquainted with the goal of getting customers to choose to change beforethey choose to choose you as a solution provider. So the foundation is messagingand then everything else that's on top of that. So I have a questionfor you. Sure does this mean? You know, to your point ofmarketing, a gain is not as effective as sort of causing or provoking asense that, to your points of status quo is untenable and that the painof the present situation is dramatic and, as a consequence, that's the thingthat's going to motivate them to change, as opposed to marketing room or sortof pitching them, you know, an incremental game, particularly against the statedneed because, as you've said, that's a commodity. They've said that toevery single vendor that they've come up against. Does that mean that all of ourmessaging kind of needs to be fear based and there can't be aspiration oroptimism in the marketing messaging? You know, and like in the website, iseverything about hey, you didn't know this, but your business is aboutto go off a lift and and it's it's all fear, uncertainty and doubtand there's nothing about hey, we can sort of change the world together andclimb this mountain together in an optimistic way. What what's your take? They're actuallyI think it's hazardous to just be the bearer of bad news all thetime. What I think we're trying to do here is to create sufficient contextand contrast for the customers that they see their current situation and then they seea preferred picture of the future. So you've you've got to do both.It's not sufficient for you to just leave them in a crisis without giving themsteps to be able to resolve that crisis. So, very simply, I wantto bring customers into a place where they understand the real existential impact ofthe current way of working to their business, but then show them that the futurecan literally be better than that, because I work with people that looklike them and I can help them to begin to make that journey. You'vegot to put those things side by side and the grass literally needs to begreener on the other side. So I always say anybody that I work withinthis regard that your product needs to be good enough, or at least theminimum viable capability of it is, needs to be competitive enough that you canactually show that the grass, if you come with me, is literally greeneron the other side. But I want you to know that you cannot continueto operate your business like this, because I want to bring the reality ofthe flaws of your approach to your process to bear and then give you apicture of what the future looks like. But that only is effective if youhave an understanding of your current context in reality. Yeah, but so understoodthat they live side by side. But there's a sequence. And Yeah,it does feel like the first thing you need to do is sort of tellthem that their life is terrible before you...

...can make their life better. Yeah, but there's one unique case where you almost want to flip that around,and that's when it comes to the renewal conversation. And again, this isapplicable to to to most of the people who are the audience to this,as far as I understand, will operating SASS businesses where retention is absolutely crucial. In the retention conversation, you are now the status quale you're somebody elseis disrupting your customers point to view and telling them that they need to change. In that conversation, you need to restate to them why they shows youin the first place. Showed them the journey that they've made from there,the initial status Quale, to your current position, and how the grass forthem is green up, you know. So you start by reinforcing why itwas right to go with you and then, from that perspective, begin to introduceother capabilities that you can lay on on top of that from a froman upset across a perspective. But in that situation we don't want to betelling your customer that now was the time to change. The actually trying totell them that now is the time to stay the same. Of course.Well, now you are the now you are the status quale. So youhave to flip the whole thing and tell them that everything, everything is allof a sudden. Fine, one more question. So it strikes me that, I mean, I have many questions. We have a bit more time together, but it strikes me that this message has to be delivered to somebodythat cares, and so that sort of speaks to me about the classic kindof value based selling concepts of moving above the power line and making sure thatyou're getting to power, because it you to be telling somebody that your businessis failing that cares about whether the business is failing. Do you agree,disagree? Is that part of the strategy of sort of trying to get tothe C suite? That's right. I think you have to elevate the conversation. I've written in the post about how sales people, particularly at the strlevel, are afraid of heights, and that's about if you actually analyze yourcrm and the volume of conversations that are happening with people that can actually makedecisions that affect the business from an existential point of view is probably about twentypercent. The rest of the conversations are happening with midlevel kind of sponsors wholove to have a good conversation but can actually elevate those issues or don't wantto because they also don't want to be the ones to expose the business tothe idea that we're not doing as well as we thought we were doing.So I would say it's key to take to elevate this conversation to the peoplewho are worried about whether the business will be here in a year or twoyears. Time and again, those people don't want to know the nuance ofthe features that you provide a solutions provider, as a software as a software provider. They want to understand how is this going to affect our business,and so there's a little bit of a contradiction as it pertains to how mostSASS businesses that have I've seen the inside of, and even we were guiltyof this early on in our life at Idio, where we train our salespeople a lot on what the product does, but not how it affects the customersexistence going forward, whereas the customer is worried about the existence going forward, not necessarily about what your product is capable of doing from a feature andones perspective. So there is a business acumen gap there that does exist andit's crucial at a sales leadership perspective and moxy leadership perspective to be elevating theconversation sufficiently so that you are speaking in the lexicon of the person who iscapable of making a percent decision in your favor because they feel like they needto save that business from falling apart. Does this impact how you partner withthe sales team in terms of the sequencing of the sales flow? To yourpoint about I mean I completely agree with you that, particularly in product ledtechnology led companies, the engineers often they they are passionate about what they've builtand they want the business team to understand how their product works. Yeah,but they fail themselves to understand anything about or not anything. But often theyfail to understand about the customers lives. And people don't they don't buy features, to your point, they buy solutions two problems that exist in their business. Yeah, so does this. You know, for example, in manymen market sale cycles, the demo is like the second thing that happens.You know, you have a discovery call. It's forty five minutes. You doall the things that you've just said. Maybe you haven't said don't do them, but you've said that they are commodity things to do, like tellme about your problems, tell me about your day, you know, walkme through what your greatest struggles are, what's keeping you up at night.And then the next thing that happens is you try to move into a demoand the context, I mean, as it says, it's a demo.It's a demonstration. You're supposed to sort of do a screen share or maybemeet them in person show them the Plat form, and that's kind of likethe in some ways, the apex of the sale cycle, which is,you know, okay, I asked you a bunch of questions. See mysoftware can solve though, the answers to those questions. Do you delay thedemo? Do you restructure the the entire flow of the sales or Customer JourneyPresale? How do you take these ideas, not just from a content marketing perspectivebut from a sales process perspective and put them into action? So it'sa it's a really good question and not not an easy one to solve.I would say the first thing is the people that are ready to jump ona demo and as much as we get...

...excited about about those people, again, those are the people that have already made the decision to change most ofthe time. So they've got a funded Denisative in the organization. They arein a vendor selection mode at that point in time, and there's nothing wrongwith those guys. My contestion is that those are just a very, verysmall proportion of the opportunity for most solution providers and we invest all of oureffort in trying to get somebody was already made a decision to change, totry and compel them that they've made the right decision, which is to change. So nothing wrong with the demos, nothing wrong with kind of being goodat demos and even going in a step further with that, but I wouldsay as it pretends to the rest of the opportunity, to eighty percent whichchoose to do nothing in those situations. I do want to partner with thesales organization carefully. I want to spend I listen to sales calls, Ilike to go along to sales meetings and I often encourage at that early stageconstructured conversation. I'm trying to get to the heart of the matter of whysomebody took the meeting in the first place. You know what is actually going onin the organization. That means that you know they may not be ableto with their finger on it, but there's there's a compelling need for changeit that we need to articulate together until we get to a point where theysay, you know what, there's our magic moment if you can help usto do that thing, then you're the natural partner to do Belsu, becausethat is an actual issue for us. So early on, I want tomove sales people away from the goal being to finish a presentation, to tomove away from it being to get them to agree to a demo, tosomehow quantifying, or at least getting into point where the salesperson feels confident thatthis prospect is ready to change. And if I could, forgo out aformula of how to kind of consistently get sales people to tell me with confidencethat they may not choose us, but they're definitely going to choose somebody becauseI was able to articulate value to them and to show them a serious flawin the way that they're currently approaching their process, that they are now goingto make a change in their business. We can make that repeatable across ourstr and, marketing and demonjen functions, then we will be growing businesses,because now you're creating demand for the first time, you're not just double clickingon somebody that's already made the decision to change. That's inventor selection mode.Yeah, and that's to your point. I mean in bound marketing. Oftentimespeople love and bound leads, but it's the same thing. Their inventor selectionmode. Right. They became a lead in all likelihood because they're becoming alead for a lot of people. Yeah, exactly, definitionally competitive. So that'sthe beauty of outbound sales. You've decided they're good fit based on theprofile and the persona and then hopefully your messaging can help you get in there. That's right. You've made it pretty clear that walking in the shoes ofthe customers important. How does this impact? I guess you have a point ofview on hiring sales people or marketing people from industry, or is itreally about the training and sort of investing heavily and onboarding so that you cantake people that don't practicularly have industry background and mold them and sculpt them andhelp them understand the context of the buyer that they're selling to? Such apreference? I'm in two minds about this. I'll tell you what. When itcomes to Stas, when I've been building out those teams, I didn'ttake people that were coming from from industry at all. I took people thatwere coming from recruitment and most times of people that were coming from hospitality,because I liked people who could create a repoll and build a relationship with customers. With the I could train them effectively on understanding how to approach the customerand to coast them into thinking and empathizing with the customer and really articulating withvalue. But what I really needed was the role ingredients of somebody who cancreate relationships with customers and who customers can feel comfortable with, but then somebodywho was also curious to learn how do our customers make money, not justwhat do we do, and how can we help them to be more successfuland help them to grow? So I'm not I'm not a stickler for hiringfrom industry. had rather hire from parallel or tangential verticals where there is abest practice around creating a relationships, particularly at the str stage, makes sense. So, Munia, I think we're sort of coming to the end ofour time together for this session. I'm sure there will be future sessions.One of the as I say, one of the things we like to dois sort of pay it forward and understand how you became you a little bitand and sort of hear about some of your influences, some of your mentors, I know that you've had them. They're sort of one person that youmentioned the other night that I want everybody to hear about. And then there'sa professor. So tell us a little bit about the people that have helpedyou come to these realizations and formulate these opinions so we can do a littlebit of research and celebrate them a little bit. Sure, the first guythat I want to pay homage too, and I would never claim to havecome up with these ideas, is Tim Ristra, who's the chief strategy officerat corporate visions. Terms of phenomenal guy, his ideas on prospect theory and behavioralscience as it pertains to marketing and Messaging Really, really transformed my perspective. I remember sitting in a conference when I saw him speak for the firsttime and making the decision to change. It was that good. I cameback and I sat out executing down at...

...the time and I said, guys, we've been getting it all wrong. We've been trying to talk about whowe are and what we do and it's time for us to really really doubleclick on the you know, understanding how our customers lives are at risk unlesswe come in and and articulate that value to them. So Tim has beenphenomenal to me. We've we've subsequently done webinars together. I'm a fan ofhis books. So I would definitely say three value conversations is one of thethe fantastic game change and kind of assets that I've taken off and recently Ispent some time, I think I mentioned that, the University of Cambridge withProfessor Eden in again looking at prospect theory and understanding. You know, howdo you define need? What is that equation? If you could simplify it, that means that we can begin to understand the key drivers. That meanpeople reach a consensus decision and be to be and make that in our favor. So so professor in fantastic researcher in the world of Payroll Economics and prospecttheory again, and I've taken those kind of two influences and really built apractice around messaging. So I'm forever grateful to them and will shout about themmany opportunity I get very good any books are content that you're consuming that's beenparticularly influential that we should be aware of. Yeah, I view. Guess it'snot a question you ask me. Jona burghers contagious, I think,is a fantastic book about why things go viral. I think it's a rideof passage for every kind of demand and led marketer. He gives you avery, very good lens through which to think about how to craft programs thatgive customers value, that give them social currency, that make sure that thingsgo bigger. So I'd say that's a fantastic book, one of my kindof repeated reads. And then most recently thinking fast and slow by Dan andhas helped me again to reinforce these ideas around prospect theory and payboy comics.Very good, Dan Connoman. Thank you. FATO's little great book parting words,Life Mottos give us something inspirational to leave us with. I'd say oneof the things that that I really believe in is we should all discover what, I'll strength is and kind of stay in that box. We're not alwaysgoing to be good at everything. I don't think we should feel under pressureto be good at everything. I think we should delegate all the stuff that'snot in our core capability. You know, Samuel and my weaknesses are somebody's opportunity, and I think we should. We should resist the impulse because we'rein charge, because we're responsible, because we have remit to keep a holdof of things that are not in the center of what I was our callstrength and capability, and to delegate that stuff out to somebody WHO's dying ina corner somewhere, hoping that you give them the opportunity to have a goat it. So I'd say double click on your strengths and delegate your weaknesses. So yeah, okay, I believe it. Last thing when you I'msure people have that are listening to this have been inspired, they have questions. Maybe they want to have a conversation or coffee with you. If peoplewant to reach out to you a is that okay and be. What's yourpreferred mechanism or channel? Hey, that is okay and be. If youcan connect with me on Linkedin, massively off for that. I take them, almost all connections that come my way, so happy to engage it. Isit Munya hotel at Linkedin, or is it when you re to you? How what is it? It's minora Zi hotel. I'M gonna Zee Hotel. Yes, so that's that's that's the easy place to go. And Yeah, we can take it from them. Always keen to meet New People,and especially people that are building disruptive or category creating softway. Wonderful, Mounia, thanks so much for your time on the sale soccer podcast. We reallyappreciate it. Thank you very much then, everybody, this is Sam's corner.Moonya hote has a lot of really, really insightful ideas about marketing and Ihope, I hope it got your head spending a little bit and thatyou're thinking about the concepts. Let me walk you through a couple key ideas, and this is not some of these aren't just new, they're just they'rejust repackaged in really interesting and useful ways. First thing is we all love inbound leads, but you got to understand what does that mean that they'rean inbound lead? It means that they have decided that they have pain andthey are actively seeking to remedy that pain. That's okay, but it means thatyou're probably not the only person that they're seeking to remedy that pain with. Once you're out there searching on the Internet, there's a lot of differentoptions, especially if your competitors are, you know, advertising on Google rightabove your search result. So the first thing is you have to understand thatan inbound lead, they're very valuable and and maybe in certain sales and ifyou're just an expert demandaiin marketer, they're not going to be competitive comparison shopping, but most of the time they will be, and that means that you'regoing to compete on price. That means that you're going to be chiseled,which is a word that I use a lot, and reduced. And sothat's okay. We need that money, we need that business and we needthat content, the content marketing that drives the inbound leans. But we reallyhave to understand that's why outbound is valuable. Outbound is valuable because you've decided they'rea fit and you can control the experience in a way that you can'twhen they're an inbound lead. So that's...

...one thing to think about related tothat when you have pointed out stated needs. Right. So when you ask what'syour daytoday like? What's keeping you up at night, just remember theyare saying the same answer to the market, to everybody, and that means thatthey're already putting you in a box, and that box is a commodity box. And so that's why you have to lead, as challenge or tellsus, with commercial insight. You have to be provocative and you have toteach them something new about their business that reframes their world, because you haveto move into the undiscovered needs. Right, the unknown, undiscovered needs. That'swhere eighty percent, that's when he says you know, eighty percent ofyour crm is lost, but has undiscovered needs and chooses to do nothing.He's just talking about traditional win rates. Right. If it's a well qualifiedopportunity, we expect to win one out of five times. Four out offive times they choose to do nothing. So that's the opportunity. How dowe get the people that are competitors aren't even working at how do we getthose people to change? Yes, within the twenty percent of the deals thatwe win, yes, they've decided to change. They were in a bakeoff. It's going to be a competitive situation many of the time, especially inb Tob Sass, where you know we're all selling similar solutions or there's threeproviders in the specific category. So that's okay. We want to win thosedeals. We have to win those deals. That's the hard way. But thinkabout how to go where they ain't, as they say. How do yougo where your competitors aren't? One of the ways that you do thatis by provoking undiscovered needs and being provocative and sales conversations. I don't meanprovocative like swearing or being an asshole. I mean being provocative by delivering uniqueinsights that the prospects hadn't considered and get people that weren't going to do anything, get them. Size that at size and speed. That's what Luna says. Frame that that opportunity, frame that pain in a way that makes notchanging untenable. And again, the only way that you're also going to dothat as you're talking to somebody that gives a shit, and the people thatgive a shit tend to be the more senior people. The most junior peopleoftentimes do not give a shit. So try to move higher in the conversation. And now we need we need to get those mobilizers, like Bret Adamsand says, but move higher in the conversation and then, and then tryto unlock that eighty percent. Try to change your win loss right by usingmessaging that makes the that sort of speaks to and address is undiscovered needs ratherthan stated needs. So this has been Sam's corner. Before we go,we also always have to thank all of the sponsors and all of the people. So to check out show notes see upcoming guests. That's actually not true. I don't think that we have upcoming guests on that Web page, butwe have previous guests. So check out show notes, see previous guests andplay more episodes from our incredible lineup of sales and marketing leaders and other inspirationalfigures. Visit Sales Hackercom and head to the PODCAST TAB. You'll find uson itunes or Google play. If you enjoyed the episode, please do shareit with your peers on Linkedin, twitter or elsewhere. So just click thatshare. It's really easy to do and we appreciate it. And if youwant to get in touch with me, find me on twitter at Sam fJacobs or on Linkedin at Linkedincoma, the word in and then slash and thenSam f Jacobs. And as you can tell from the intro where I thankedall of our fans, I really do appreciate it. We appreciate at theteam. There's a team here that's working really, really hard. Thank theteam includes a bunch of different people that I can't name right now but Iwill name next week, but they're amazing. The sales hacker team in the outreachteam are absolutely amazing to work with. And finally, thanks to our sponsors, that's air call, your advance cal center software, complete business phoneand contact center, hundred percent natively integrated into any CRM, and outreach acustomer engagement platform that efficiently and effectively engages prospects to drive more pipeline and closemore deals, and it also positions you as a salesperson as thoughtful, intelligentand capable of delivering unique in personalized insights. So that's what outreach can do foryou. I will see you next time. Thanks for listening to MeTalk.

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