The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

39. How to Build a Startup Inside One of the World’s Biggest Tech Companies with Diane Chang Wardi, Growth Lead, Facebook

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This week on the Sales Hacker podcast, we talk to Diane Chang Wardi, one of the sales leaders running and building the Workplace by Facebook initiatives within the global Facebook organization.  Diane originally hails from the fashion industry before joining entering the tech world via Google and then Facebook. She’s tasked with the daunting role of building a traditional B2B enterprise sales team the most recognizable consumer tech company on the planet.

One, two, one, three, three. Hey everybody, it's Sam Jacobs and welcome to the salesacker podcast. If my math is correct, I think this should be two thousand and nineteen that you're listening to this and if so, I hope you had a happy new year and if it's still two thousand and eighteen, then fantastic. I hope you're looking forward to two thousand and nineteen. I don't know that die you. This week we've got a great show. We've got Diane Shang Wardy, who is leading enterprise growth for the east coast for workplace by Facebook, which is their their enterprise collaboration tool that is nestled within the broader facebook consumer organization. So it's really interesting story about how to build a start up within this big corporate entity that is focused on a totally different market, which is the consumer world. And Diane's got an incredible background. She was in strategic partnerships at Google before she was at facebook and she's had a bunch of different roles. So she talks about sort of how to take advantage of your career, how to navigate your career and how to make sure that when there's an opportunity, so to lean in and sees the day and raise your hand for that opportunity. So it's a great it's a great conversation and she sort of walks through her personal philosophies, including having a protagonist framework, which is really interesting. So listen on for that. Before we dive in, we want to thank our sponsors. The first is air call, a phone system designed for the modern sales team. Are Call seamlessly integrates into your crm, eliminating data entry for your reps and providing with greater visibility into your team's performance through advanced reporting. When it's time to scale, you can add new lines and minutes and use in caall coaching to reduce ramp time for your new reps. visit are called dot io for salesacker to see why a million great companies are using air call. Our second sponsor is outreach. That's outreached, out I owe, the leading sales engagement platform. Outreach triples the productivity of sales teams and empowers them to drive predictable and measurable revenue growth by prioritizing the right activities in scaling customer engagement. With intelligent automation, outreach makes customer facing teams more effective and improves its ability into what really drives results. So go over to outreach, dot io forward salesacker. That is outreach, dot io forward slash sales sacker, to see how thousands of customers, including cloud air, glass door, Pandora, Zillo and on and on and on, rely on outreach to deliver higher revenue for Sales Rep lastly, as many of you know, I am part of a global advocacy organization for commercial executives called the revenue collective. We are now in Toronto, Denver, Boston, London, New York and I'm probably forgetting one Amsterdam, where Andre Brussel, the CEO of Hatsh Hotel Champ, started that chapter. But if you're in a different market somewhere out there and you're interested in starting up a revenue collective chapter, drop me a line. You can reach me at Linkedincom in slash Sam f Jacobs. So that's a little announcement for the revenue collective. Now, without further ado, let's listen to Diean Shag Lordy from facebook in this week's episode of the Salesacer podcast. Everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome back to the sales hacker podcast. We are incredibly excited. If I've done my math right, it is now two thousand and nineteen and so and if it's not two thousand and nineteen, will have I hope you're having a good two thousand and eighteen, but it should be two thousand and nineteen. But that's not the point. The point is that we're really excited for this week's guest. She is a member of the revenue collective but, more importantly, Diane Shang Wardy is the enterprise growth lead for workplace by facebook. So in her role she leads workplaces commercial presence on the East Coast. She's going to tell us all about workplace. If you're not familiar with it, it is their enterprise software solution, obviously for enterprises, and she's building a go to market sales team that looks a lot like and is be to be enterprise sales within the construct of the global facebook organization. So it's going to be a super interesting conversation. Prior to this role, she was the chief of staff for Nicola Mendelsohn, facebook's VP of Amia. Earlier in her career she spent a number of years at Google leading strategic partnerships with top e commerce companies in the UK and she holds a bea from Princeton and an MBA from Harvard business school. So she's smart. Diane, welcome to the show. Great, thanks so much for having you. So we are excited to...

...have you. So let's just dive into it. Be So for the listeners out there, facebook as a public company. Normally we would go into Diane's baseball card and we'd ask about rr and, you know, all of those financial metrics that private companies have. But we can all look up facebooks ten K if we want to know about how big they are and what they're up to. So let's hear about you, Diane. First of all, tell us what is enterprise. Tell us about workplace for facebook or work place by Facebook, and give us a little bit about of the origin store right, because I think it's really interesting. Yeah, of course. Okay, so we're placed by facebook and in a quick sound by even think of it as a private facebook for the organization, and it actually started it as an internal tool. So basically, in two thousand and eleven mark Zuckerberg gets up on stage at fate and he talks about think back to a time where facebook did not have groups and we would announce that as a feature. So it was a place for friends and family to get together. And at the time the organization facebook had grown so quickly that it actually felt, while we were on stage talking about new innovative features and the new type of company that facebook was actually internally we had grown so quickly that things were locked in silos, so emails, meetings, etc. So one enterprising engineer basically took groups and made it available for just facebook, the organization, and it actually kind of changed everything overnight. And so when we think about as the organization grew, the most important thing is that people have access to information so they can make the best decision. That's literally not the people that are just in the meeting rooms or on the senior email threads that are making the decisions. And so it was a very deliberate management decision since two thousand and eleven to actually make what we called facebook at work a thing. And then along the way we got a lot of questions from people who would ask about, you know, how has facebook brought people along in the journey as it's grown so quickly, and we realize like in some ways we used facebook to make facebook facebook. So we we took it to I mean a lot of the I think companies are like that, right. You know, even some instances you fee. You look at Aaron Ross, feel say sales force made sales for sales force. So and this instance it feels very relevant. And so in two thousand and fifteen we made it available in Beta and the our first paying customer was the Royal Bank of Scotland, who was in a totally opposite business then facebook, but they had basically invested a law in external advocacy after the financial crisis and wanted to do more for their employee base. And so it's grown from there. We renamed it to workplace in two thousand and sixteen. Facebook at work was very confusing for the external market and now we've got thirtyzero organizations using it, from Walmart, starbucks, Delta to the ten person Nail Salon that's run corner. Wow, and you're you're running that. Are you allowed to tell us how big your team is? Yes, and so in New York, and we actually have a landing team in New York. So we just put people here a year ago, and so we've got three in sales to in customer success and one solutions architect, and so it's just a straight up pod function. But workplace, interestingly, is the first product of facebook to be fully built outside of Menlo Park. And so, again, because it was like an internal side project, there were a couple of enginerors working on it in London and it's now grown to an organization of maybe a hundred, hundred fifty people on the commercial side and that as well as on product. Wow, awesome. Well, I want to sort of deeply dig in, but let's start with with you. And how did you get to this role? We heard in your bio that you were sort of you went to Princeton and HBS. But how did we how did you find your way to facebook in the first place? gives us a little bit about your background. Sure, it's a good question, and so I mean, I think generally my foray into tech started in a place that you wouldn't necessarily expect, and that actually was because I started my career in fashion and all for all the amazing things that fashion brings, I think my vantage and entry and entry point into it made me feel like actually I wanted to work on something with like true scale, and so if you wanted scale, I went to somewhere that where I got it, and that was Google, and I think from there I basically got hulked and completely spoiled on what it meant for, you know, a thought, a product, a project to have such impact for People's daily lives. And so through there, you know, had added variety of different partnerships roles that took me to London, Mountain view, etc. And then my journey to actually facebook was just a continuation of that kind that continual, I think, hunt for impact and scale. But the interesting thing, I think...

...while I've done a lot of partnerships role, having done that, I actually ended up taking a chief of staff role in London for our VP of Amia, which is your Middle East and Africa. It's quite a corporate distinction to call it Amia, and that basically gave me exposure to kind of the whole business in a way that probably would that it would take some time for me to see other vantage points of the business. So I'm thinking about comms policy, areas of the business that didn't necessarily work around just the core silo that I was in, and I think the interesting thing about that is you would imagine, okay, when people talk to leaders of Facebook, they could ask anything right. They could ask anything from how does facebook feel about X Y Z policy to what are you doing on ABC product? But the single biggest thing that people want to ask and talk about was facebook's culture. How have you scaled it? You know, people would always say things about actually, it really feels like I'm trying to get my messages out and how does facebook do it? And interestingly, so much of that conversation just came back to to wordplay, and so I felt like it was coming up in so many conversations that when it was time to look for my next role, along with a personal move to New York, it seemed pretty clear cut to me that I was really excited to build out what place could be for the east coast. And you're in a sales leadership role and I think you know so your commercial roles before had been running sort of partnerships teams. Are you noticing a difference? Does it feel completely natural? You know, how are you approaching sort of this new set of responsibilities? So I think some things do feel completely natural and I think this maybe both I think learned at the mee of my previous Boston and a broad facebook thing of just like a people or people right. So, whether you're like selling someone on the opposite side or you're building a partnership, fundamentally we're trying to do is like have a thought, have a vision, guide and educate and then get to that that piece. I think what will feel slightly different or a couple of the things of just like the rigor of what is it be tob sale versus how I thought about partnerships in the past and I've worked on, you know, on revue revenue partnerships previously, but it feels completely different, I think, in this aspect of how we think about it, and I think when you talk to sales leaders who were doing be to be software sales in particular, I've completely marveled at the discipline and the Pantheon of knowledge that exists in these sales leaders of just how similar the issues are. Right you could be a sales leader for twenty five years and you could be a sales leader for six months and you're still kind of fundamentally figuring out, okay, you know, where is the line between our sales and marketing team? How do we get them to work together? How do you think about your demand Jin? How do you think about sales cycle optimization? And so I love that because I think I've found it a very welcoming and incredible community of such smart, switched on, sometimes very high decibel leaders that are so willing to talk about anything from the most entry level to the most advanced, and so I think that's been some of the biggest challenge and then also some of the biggest surprise. So how are you? I mean it's super interesting, first of all, just scaling the culture and obviously share what you're comfortable sharing, but how do you introduce or be part of the team that is introducing I guess you know, it's two thousand and sixteen. It sounds like when things, you know, got into Beta, but still a relatively new effort to introduce the concept of traditional be tob sales inside this global consumer organization. How do you do that? What's your strategy for doing that and what's the timeline for you to feel like you're making the right impact? I guess if you guys have thirtyzero different organizations using it, you've alread any meaning, already made any impact. But how do you think about it? Yeah, so I think we feel really lucky because we will always ask why, why is facebook in this space like that? Wouldn't actually have to go into the enterprise space. And for US actually, if you think about it, like facebook changed its mission last year to be centered around giving people the power to build community and bring the world closer together. And so actually, if you think about like your most arguably and maybe not your most important community, but for many people their most important community and the one that you spend the most time with, it is your work. And so for us we feel like workplace is a fundamentally important way to bring people into communities in their workplace. And so I think from there we feel very lucky within the larger facebook ecosystem, that this is a huge bet investment for for facebook. And so if you look at our three, five ten year Road Map, as we talked about our products, we're in the same...

...company as instagram and Messenger. So for the workplace team, we feel really proud about that and think that's really good company. But that said again, I mean if you're working on consumer businesses, it's so easy for instagram and Messenger to tout their huge user counts, are monthly active people, and for workplace that it will feel somewhat different because we're in a different stage with the business, but that's that. I think it comes with both strengths and then things are areas to develop on. So I think the the great part about it is with facebook's consumer DNA, the whole point is like what we care about is getting people to use the product. So I think while there are more traditional benchmarks and milestones as you think about building enterprise business, we still take that lens to what it means about workplace and it just means that all we want to do is build greate products that people want to use. And then if you go in and you talk to people who have been in the enterprise collaboration software space and have potentially invested in previous ones, all they will do and tell you whether there are hr it comms. Pick your persona. Is that like we bought something, it seemed great, it ticked every box on the matrix and yet people don't use it. So I think we feel really lucky because we at least have a track record of building products that people use. On the opposite side, I mean the funny thing is what it means to build an enterprise organization within a large consumer organization. Is just some of the like the milestones of what that means. So, for example, you know, we were building an SDR function. It wasn't one that was familiar to facebook until basically built an enterprise sales organization. So going through that concept of what is an organization look like and and what are the things actually that we need as a baseline. And then, you know, some of the other things of just like how we think about our Legen and demand. Jen will be very different from some of the other areas of facebook's business. So that's something that we've also have to explore and strike the right balance. Is Your Legen is it sort of this concept of product qualified leads? I mean is there like a is it a fremium platform? Tell us a little bit more about like the product itself. And I guess my question is, does it compete? I mean is it a slack competitor? Is it a yammer competitor? How do we sort of fit it into, you know, the right category? Yeah, of course it's a great question. And even, I think, the enterprise collaboration space. If you were to Google like enterprise collaboration space, you'll get fifteen different articles which will tell you either like it's slack or M or chatter jive. But fundamentally actually, we think our biggest competition is email, and that sounds kind of like, okay, what does that actually mean? But let me guarantee everyone who is collaborating in a company is sending communications on email. It is the most like entrenched technology you can think of, and so for US actually, we think there's a huge opportunity to start even with something as simple revolutionizing top down collaboration, because most of that is still done via email. Your CEO or your senior leader will send an email to, you know, one hundred, two hundred and fifty two hundred Tho people and unless you were the intern that miss missed the memo, you do not reply all to that email. And all that means is that you don't actually get to a conversation organization, whereas if you put it in something that's a little bit more familiar, which by by by definition, there is a blanket says reply, write a comment, like you're asking for feedback, and it's not so scary to reply back to your CEO when he posts it or when he goes live or uses something that's like actually how people communicate in two thousand and nineteen, and so I think that's kind of where we think we play and there's a lot of people who have tried other things. So some of the names that you've mentioned and obviously are great products, but I think what we have found is that there's an incredible adoption across an entire organization. And so back to the idea of bringing you know, bring making a company into a community. This not only takes your tech team or your accounting team, where you're HR team, but the whole goal is really to bring everyone in. Matier question on business model, so we have two options. We have both standard, which is free, and then premium. But most people, I think, over premium just because it comes with some controls, like, you know, for an admin panel for example. So anything, I think above a ten person organization would want that. And our pricing model is like three dollars per monthly active person. So again I am we've we charged on an active usage rather than seats, and that's another example. I think what we're talking about if we really care, we want people to use the product rather than thinking about what more traditional pricing options when you think about like the the Roy and I guess my I'm just super interested in I'm always interested in the concept of like building these be to be enterprise businesses...

...within like a broader ecosystem, like a broader consumer business like facebook. So do you guys have like your own marketing team when you're thinking about Roy? Has it been a struggle to sort of develop all of the right traditional enterprise sales collateral to help the sales team be effective? Yeah, and I think for us it's still very much a work in progress. And so and even thinking through like what it means for a product to be headquartered in in London and built out of London. So that means that those were our first sales cycles, right. So what cells in the enterprise collaboration space, and Amia may be different than an Apac, maybe be different in North America and Lad am. So I think that's definitely something we're still learning. So, for example, culture may resonate with a certain set of CEOS, but others will find that fluffy and like. What they actually want to measure is impact to their bottom line. And so if I think about our marketing team, for example, I mean I think they've done an incredible job of just getting your workplace out there and still figuring out how we tell our enterprise story and what we're leading with, because I think I think back trying to explain what facebook was when you were like first on it and you asked your friend to get on it and you're like it's photos, but it's news feed and etc. And I think for us what we're doing is really trying to crystallize actually what this could be, which has it's both feature rich but also very targeted in what we want to do for an organization. But sometimes, I mean, I think trying to distill that in in, you know, ten copy display at can be tricky and so we're still working through that. But it's, I think, a good problem to have. What kind of sales people have you found to be effective? And you know, I mean it's a common question across all sales leadership, but when you think about the ideal profile, what are the qualities for the specific type of sales motion that have emerged as sort of determinatet of success? Yeah, it's interesting. So I think also, you know, workplace has gone through an interesting evolution as we started in the market. Obviously you have the name recognition from the parent brand, but not a lot of other people, I think, understood what it was. And again we took it to market with like facebook at work. So I think in the earlier stage is you really needed somebody who could like sell the vision right what this could be. It's a new way of running a company on a lot of the pieces around that, and so kind of the classic like I hate to use the Jeffrey Moore type methodology, but it like a hundred percent applies. Right. Are you getting charismatic business leaders who can see what this is? And then, as obviously as the sales like cycle goes on, then people have more questions. Right, then you're dealing with a fortune two thousand it company. And then I think we feel really excited about the progress and how we've we've met that challenge. And so some of our recent customers we've announced our Austras, Seneca, Vota phone, Glaxo Smith client, and so as you get into those industries, you imagine that they have the most rigorous checks in the world of what they want to accomplish, our wy security, etc. And we've been able to make that happen. And so I think from a broader perspective. That evolution has then meant you need salespeople who are very like just basically adaptable, right, who can actually sell a vision and tell that story and and lay that as as the baseline, but then also be like proficient enough to talk through what it actually means for a security check. And I think probably the second piece we're finding to be really successful is somebody who can say, like, okay, I'm going to tell you, this is how we think about collaboration at facebook and this is what we've learned from our base of customers about how collaboration communication are happening and the enterprise today, what it'll look like in two years, in five years, and you may not be ready to figure out how that's going to work in your organization, but I'm going to tell you how. These are the people that you need to go galvanize. This is the story that you need to tell, here are the common questions you're going to get, and so it really is this kind of guiding educational piece. I think of salespeople who aren't afraid to say actually, like, I fully hear you and I I justlike I disagree, but because I care enough about your organization and the future of it, to tell you. And so that's, I think, what we've seen transfer the most successfully to workplace skill set. So that's almost like a challenger methodology, you know, leading with commercial insight and talking to customers about sort of their business and presenting it in a new way. Yeah, absolutely to me. So when you you know, you've been at Google and you've been at facebook, and I think there's probably a lot of people out there who are either at high growth companies or maybe some of them are at big companies and trying to figure out how do they become you and like how...

...do they navigate these organizations effectively and continue moving up the ladder? What are when you think about what's made you successful at, you know, Google and facebook, these two huge companies, companies that are driving sort of the technical evolution of the world, what do you attribute it to? What are the skills that you think you've relied on that have really helped you? Like how does somebody else sort of following your footsteps? Wow, wow, what a nice question. I think some of the things that I can think. I don't think it's like one thing in particular right and everyone will kind of always classically say like what's the difference between like hard work or lucky break? And I think kind of classically people will say, well, it's the hard work that gets you to your lucky break, and for me I do feel very lucky. I've had a lot of great opportunities along the way in between these different organizations. But I'd say if there were a couple of things that cut that I pinpoint. So one is really just like if you see something and you're interested in it, like don't be afraid to go have the conversation or ask a question, and I think I'd be. You'd be some prizes by having people just don't do that. That being just like the literal table stakes of step one. And so, for example, like a Google, when I wanted to do strategic partnerships, basically everyone told me I was way too junior to go do it. Right, I had, you know, Google had just signed an agreement with apple the Google maps on the launch of the Apple iphone, and I would this is literally two thousand and seven. I was like that's cool. Who Signs that agreement? Who pays whom, Etcetera, etc. And then you know, everyone was like, well, it is this very like fancy strategic partnerships team. But again, you're going to need like ten more years experience. So if you want to go do partnerships, like quick Google go to like, you know, a smaller company that allow you to do partnerships. I was like, okay, well, that sounds like a pretty drastic move. And so then you would basically just find someone on the team and it's you know who were like, are you happy to have a thirty minute chat? And with most people were ready to have a have a thirty minute chat, which led to a six month maternity cover on that team, which led to a full time role. But I'd like seen that time and time again, and even if I look at roles like even for hiring my replace for cheapest aff role, a lot of people basically just didn't like go for the role because they were like they thought, Oh, I'm not sure I'm ready for it or etcetera. But like that you already like put yourself out of the running to begin with, and I think I felt really surprised seeing that that cycle happen. And so I'd say the biggest thing I would say is literally just like there's nothing wrong to go have the thirty minute conversation. There's literally zero downside to it. And then you mentioned a few lessons. What are some of the other so one of them is like raise your hand and sort of jump at the opportunity. And you know, what else? Do you think? Are there other sort of management skills? And I guess one of the other questions is, how do you go from being an individual contributor to a manager or and what are your thoughts on sort of what is representative of a great manager? This is a kind of all over the place, but I'm tyfically interested in that. Yeah, but that's we're going to get through that. This is going to be like a good management book that we're going to finish. I hope so, so, so, I think. Okay, so a couple of things I think, and back to the kind of first question, of other things I think that are important to remember. I'm I think you don't necessarily have to have a steer on like what your fifteen year plan is, but have a sense of life what your next is after your next, and so again, that doesn't mean like you have fully figured out what, like you know what you're going to be when you grow up, but if you know that. Like so, for example, if you wanted to be a manager at some point and start to figure out like okay, well, then maybe, if not my next role, then what would allow me to be a manager in my next one? And of course there's a lot of soul searching conversations that go alongside with that, of like do you want to be a manager? Do you care about investing in teams and other people's Development and influencing to produce outcomes? But at least you've done some of that thought work, and I actually found it really pretty surprising, even in inflection points where so, for example, you like classic like Business School Application Essays, which you would imagine are pretty like stock and barrel, but they actually ask you what sound like very trite questions, like you know, what do you want, like what drives you and why? But actually be like take a step back and whether you're applying to school or not, it like actually just think, like okay, like what actually is the fifth level answer to that question, not the first one of the second one. But if, like my best friend were to keep asking me why, like why do I actually want to do something? And if you can get to that point where you have like a pretty good answer. Maybe every five or ten years. I think that's a pretty good guy to a North Star so you don't end up in like some industry and function that has nothing to do with what you would actually have drawn for yourself.

And so I think I've like done that a couple of times and just had the discipline to do it, because it is a discipline and it is a process in the same way where you easily could get distracted by your day to day to the business of work, the business of personal life, etc's to make that happen, let me, let me, let me in our ject real quick. So what? Why do you what is your I mean this is fat. This is really important, because I think there's so many people out there listening that they're trying to figure out what is that. I mean, I hate to sound Cliche, but what is there? Why? So, when you've done that every couple of years, like what's the most recent? I mean, if you're comfortable sharing it's probably pretty personal. But like what does motivate you? What does propel you forward, of course, and so I think for me actually, when I did like the list, and some of this is like the little like the practical tips on our life. Write down like five moments where you felt like man, I like accomplish that, and I was the only like this is I think I accomplish it in a way that nobody else would have, because I cared about something that somebody else wouldn't have, and that can be both personal and professional, and so I think what I cared about and doing that, like it was literally everything from things at work where I had like stay longer on a project and I'm like no, no, I really care about this, to even personal things where I'm like I want above and beyond on that like so, for example, like planning a trick, and I'm like, okay, well, what's the common thread between these things? And I'm actually like think about it, I actually really care about, like, I think, creating the experiences and like the stories that people like, that people here and have, and I think that continually has been a thing that's led me through. I mean I've loved in every single role when I've been able to to like latch onto what is a vision, and I think that's what drives me about the workplace of like there is a vision of what work could be and I really care about like people understanding that, having that experience, experience, go with that, go through that with me, even if, like you know, six months into it they're going to be like actually now, like you know, we may have signed an agreements to twelve months ago with a previous provider. I'm like, I really care about you having the experience where your work is fundamentally better. And so I think that's been true, I think, throughout my whole career, like thinking through like what is an experience that you think people should have and how can you help them have that? Wow, that's I mean, that's that's really really powerful stuff. So and that's kind of propelled you the whole way. I mean I interrupted you before, but so, so, tell us what else you know, like you're you're you're taking stock, you're sort of pushing forward and you're thinking about like what motivates you. What else? What other lessons do you have for people as they think about sort of pursuing and I guess one of the other ones that you just mentioned is, you know, raising your hand and making sure that you lean in on the opportunity and probably like maybe tackling things that you feel you might not be completely ready for. Does that sound accurate? Yeah, definitely. And I think maybe the last one is like just having like as a somewhat contract from what I was just saying, of like have an idea of what your next is, a you're next. But I think I feel really lucky to have had international experience for a big chunk in my career. So I worked in London for before and after business schools of seven years in total, and I think with that was incredible about that. Is it just basically like reorients yourself a running completely different too graphic access, and then just the idea that, like your inputs are going to come from different places. And if you assume that your inputs are always going to come from like one straight path, that's not actually true. And so I think just putting yourself in a position where you seek out, and that doesn't mean have to necessarily mean geography, but just where you think you'll get to a point where you get enough interdisciplinary inputs. I mean basically every great like leader and thinker and invention out there has been because like somebody has seen things that haven't been seen before and putting yourself in a position where you are exposed to new things. Like what naturally does that for you? So I'd say that's kind of the the third part of you know, my management, how to be successful. True, it is. Well, I mean people are listening. So so I think it's helpful. One of the things that you've talked to me about is is sort of this concept of like the protagonist mindset. So tell us what that is and walk us through that that framework. Yeah, so this one time I have to credit to a thinker and a leader named Fred Kaufman, who wrote a book called conscious business, and within conscious business he introduces this framework of basically like the protagonist mindset. Right, so this is like the classic okay, Somebody's late to a meeting in the morning and you ask them like Oh, you know, or they run, they rush in, they're like king coffee spilled on them and then you're like what's up and they're like, oh, there was terrible traffic, and so the protagonist basically is like to...

...flip that mindset and say like actually, I know, there's traffic every single day and I'm late because I didn't leave enough room. Now, on the one hand, that can sound like totally like. Man, this is like a hard framework on one, because then you're always basically taking responsibility. But the idea is that there is a spectrum right between a protagonist and a victim, and the victim is the one that's like, I couldn't do anything, there was traffic. And then protagonist is like, I didn't leave enough time. So in the future I know that I have agency to leave another ten minutes. And how does that translate across? You know everything right, both personal and professional, and so in an interaction with, you know, a close friend, like, what does it mean to actually, like take ownership of that? And then, certainly, I mean you'll know this better than anyone, but building like you in a startup environment, there's like going to be crazy things that happen to you and sometimes you will have to acknowledge that. Look, maybe the structure wasn't right, this wasn't set up for success. We should have thought about that six months ago. But it's all kind of like stems around Kent. Do you have like the the even the first sliver of light to be able to say, actually, I take responsibility for that, like I should have done x, even if it's like I should have thought about that six months ago, twelve months ago, and I didn't. So the only thing that prevents you like just means that you probably will think about it when you come to that similar situation in the future. So within the workplace team, I think it's very interesting within North America. Again, usually in North America you have the very luxurious position of your product team sitting in likely in California or pretty close to you. And again, I think for the workplace team it's a very good experience for all of us that are lend our London is our product team in our commercial headquarters. So it stretches a lot of skills and like what that means to be in touch with your product team, getting feedback and just the additional work it takes to make sure communication is working. But alongside with that it means also in North America, we've been really focused on adopting a protagonist mindset, meaning like, just in case you feel like that product feedback didn't get back, like it's, you know, one thing to be like well, I sent the email and starting to be like I didn't hear back and I didn't follow up, and so I think that's something that we've really had to take to heart and also meet key for basically just a small team that can feel far away from from a commercial and product head quarters. Do you guys have like a different hiring methodology or I like, are you looking for different types of people for workplace by facebook than the broader facebook consumer organization? And does that impact I mean, how does that impact you, if at all? I don't I wouldn't say that it's kind of it's different. I mean, certainly I think there are core skills or Fingo some of the conversation we've been having around having an enterprise background that is going to be much more helpful to you selling workplace rather than many potential other sales skill sets. But that said, I think you know facebook broadly and this will always be kind of like the first filter of what does it mean to succeed at Facebook, and I think there will be things of you know, being able to work cross functionally. Right. I think this is an organization like many matrix organizations, where a lot of your success is built on, like how quickly you can build relationships and understand that, like you, your success doesn't happen just by yourself, which their other organizations where that that actually does happen. But that's something that really won't work at facebook and just just given our history and the way that we've grown. And so that's, I think, a key one that we think about when we bring people into the organization. I think the second one in classically, everyone will tell you, adaptability. But again, I mean I think that that also applies to how we think about workplace, and I mean interestingly, a lot of the people who started the workplace team or long time facebookers and hadn't sold enterprise software before, but the reason they were successful as they could tell you basically what the vision of like this is how we think we should run a company. Right in some instance. We were talking a little bit about how we thought about culture and obviously, as the product expanded, then we see how this manifest at other people's organizations. So have the stories to feed in and now it's a much richer conversation about what culture would employ, engagement, etcetera, looks like now. But that said, you kind of need to be able to like adapt to that change and I think you know every time you're starting a new business within facebook, you want to bring in that facebook DNA and then obviously, you know, subject matter expertise. How did you guys think about bringing in, you know, enterprise sales expertise into this new business unit? Did you hire a bunch of consultants? Did you read a bunch of books? What did you guys embrace the specific sales methodology? Tell us a little bit about that evolution. Yeah, so I don't know if we've settled on sales, a particular sales methodology, and then certainly the book reading. You'll on my entire team laughs, basically because I feel...

...like I walk like I'm Amazon's best customer every single day. But I think every salesperson at this point and May, we haven't like settled on one, and so it is basically just working on what works for them and we kind of have a joke, you know. So we have a sales leader who leads our a mere region and he's like an incredibly charismatic but also very forceful person and he can say stuff that I would never be able to get away with in a sales pitch. So he'll like get in there, like start the pitch and just say it's too late, you're already too late, and people will pousibly like, what are you talking about? It says In't like, you know, an amazing conversate in an amazing French accent. He's like your people are already communicating on what's up there, already on consumer facebook. They're already out there with your enterprise data. You've completely missed it. Okay, like think about me saying that like that would never happen. It would just never be like my personality, my pitch. But it's very effective. When he says it. Everyone's lowers like, Oh my God, I'm too late, and so I would love to find that's been for me, whereas I'm going in talking about, like, you know, the vision of a company and what it will be. But so I think all that is to say we're not yet there. There's a lot of room for personality and how people approach it. But I think you know, as obviously the organization grows up, we will standardize it and bring in kind of core enable my functions so that if it doesn't feel like if you're a brand new and you aren't a natural, you're too late type of person, that is you're not. You have your some other tools to fall back upon and if I did, you guys. You guys use like crm? I mean do you sales force or some kind of see? Are you adopting and embracing, you know, other elements of like traditional SASS, be tob sales or war? Is it a lot of like still homegrown facebook tools to sort of go to market? In that regard, I mean I think we we use sales force and we were using sales force even when it was an enterprise business, and so that as a baseline and you know, we're a happy customer of sales loft, and so there's a lot of other things, I think that we're bringing into the organization and still exploring. Again, I think, you know, we're on a path to kind of figure out how do we make everyone most efficient and, like you know, it's we think about it like the team is pretty lean if you think about it. So, like I said, you know, it's basically three sales people for a total team of the seven with customer success in Solutions Architect for the East Coast Region, and so a lot of that will be will scale through service partners and a partner ecosystem in that is a, you know, a muscle that in some ways we know because facebooks. FACEBOOK has a lot of partnership DNA. But that said, also, like you know, figuring out in the enterprise space is new as well. And then the thing, I mean we brought an incredible leaders and so we the person to leads our global sales organization now is a is Leslie Young, who came to us from Bob and I think it's been incredible what she's built within the organization and the change and impact has been able to kind of mold with workplace. And so it's a, I think, a perfect marriage of enterprise, history and excellence and would best in class organization should look like. Plus that facebook like history and DNA just like the craziness of facebook in general. One of the you sort of alluded to a little bit before when you're talking about sort of one of the things that impacted your career. As you're you said if there's an opportunity to make sure you sort of you raise your hand and go for it. And of course, like the first two words that jump to my mind at least darling in and you know that famous book, and you are a female sales leader. Obviously, any advice or has that affected you? I mean, obviously gender affects all of us every single day, and just in ways that are conscious and unconscious. But have you developed your own personal strategy for navigating the workplace? Have you felt like it's impacted you at all? What advice would you give to to young women that are rising up through the ranks? Just always curious. We live in, you know, a changing time and we want to make sure that we're arming everybody with the tools they need to be successful in their careers. What's your perspective on that? Yeah, of course, and so I think my perspective on this is kind of changed over time. I think you know, earlier in my career I was thinking actually like it shouldn't matter right you you know somebody is up for a job, who is up for a job? And if you're not, you know, you should be able to put your hand up. It should be easy and etc. And I think over time actually and spending more time and thinking a lot about it, and then certainly I think working for incredible female leaders has given me even more vantage point on the that actually it's not just like a you know, you should just raise your hand and every all else follows this by the fact that I just literally gave you that advice. So I'm acknowledging that. But on top of that, I think actually what it is is there's a couple of things that I...

...think go into it. One, I think it's just the acknowledgement that it is important at for female leaders and and people who are female to like actually think about what they want things to look like and then just go for them, right, and so I think maybe it just takes some like being actually planful to make sure that the natural circumstances don't end up just meaning that somebody isn't in a place where they want to be. And so I think maybe for me it has been about actually taking just a little bit more thought to make sure that like the default doesn't happen, so to speak. And second things I would be about like actually just finding like people within the organization that don't necessarily to be like you, your quote Unquote Mentor, but people who have like qualities that you admire and the basically just go like study those qualities and then like see what, like, what that actually manifest says. Right. So if if you have a North Star for okay, fine, I know that this particular leader like I'm sure that she might handle XYZ situation a certain way, then actually like then that's your rubric and Road Map, and so I think that kind of modeling is really helpful, even if it doesn't have to be as personal as like a mentorship or a one on one conversation. And then third thing I'd say is like actually just like find your you're like literal people in the workplace that you feel are like your kinfred spirits, and that doesn't necessarily mean that has to be of the same gender, but people who you think kind of like, get how you think and like that you can actually like band together and bounce ideas off each other, and so some people will tell you that's kind of like a personal board, but I will certainly say, for you know, a big decisions and small, but largely the big ones. I have, you know, a set of friends that I would certainly look to, all of whom I think are incredible women who kind of see the world differently than I will and in some ways that you like. They'll bully me and tell me that I'm being stupid on one thing and other things be incredibly encouraging, and I think it's really important to just kind of have that as you go and again everyone has friends that you'll go to four different decisions, so one on jobs other than personal, but just like building that bench, I think is really important. I mean sort of a loaded question, but do you think should you modify your behavior towards quote unquote, masculine qualities, particularly in sales? You know there's these stereotypes about, even though they've largely been debunked, because it's sort of been shown that introverts, or at least amberverts are, are probably more successful in sales than sort of typically or stereotypically defined extroverts. But have you found yourself, or do you find yourself embracing certain elements of your personality or modifying your personality based on gender roles as you look for success, or you completely you're ignoring all of those things and just trying to beat do your best and etc. Yeah, some of it, I think may even be like, I actually don't even know right. So I could probably potentially be like more intent, like is intense or something in a meeting that I actually have no idea. I will say at revenue collective dinner's my volume level does go up, and notcher too, so maybe that's the most profund. That's the most reflective of me trying to, you know, fit in with a greater team. But I think, I look, I think this is going to be easier said than done, but I think in the end, like there is only so much you can do kind of like trick and environment into a personality. I think like it's exhaust usting and so some people may have been full masters of it, and I give total credence to there is a whole host of people who have done that and like, I think, sacrificed either personality wise or disguised truly who they were to bring us to where we are in and in time. That said, I think we are also coming to a moment where the acknowledgement and the acceptance is that actually it's exhausting to pretend like you're somebody else, and I think actually, you know, Harvard to a study that actually like the productivity game that's lost out of be like pretending not to be yourself actually is terrible and I'm very impactful. So if you can think about what unlocks if you actually are just like through true self, and so I'd like to be fairly optimistic about it, that were in a moment where people actually can be their true selves and don't need to modify. But I think probably classically people will. There's a little bit of just like mirroring, but for the most part, again, I don't think you can like trick people what I say, like you can't trick people into dating who you are who you are, and I think that's kind of true in all things. Yeah, makes a lot of sense. So we're almost at the at the end of of our time together. This is obviously been a fascinating conversation because you know you're doing something so innovative within this broader context. When you think about one of the things that we like to do in the podcast is sort of pay it for forward and talk about people that have influenced you. So who...

...are some of the people that you think we should know about that are great sales or marketing leaders or just great executives that have been, you know, role models for you over the last couple of years? Yeah, so on that when I'd say, hands down, it's pretty easy that it's my former boss, Nicola Mendelssoon, who runs facebook's business in a MIA, and I think for that actually the most incredible thing is like I think she's the one who actually taught me that you like can bring like literally be your whole person, and so nicolas an incredible visionary, a sales leader, and I think that said, also has like taught me the importance of what it means like actually fundamentally have people at the core. And so she's always the person who, like, no matter how hectic things seem, more intense, like will literally take the ten minutes and like thinks that actually it's a failing or professional relationship if you don't know what's going on in that person's personal life. She's like how can you possibly like work with this person, understand what drives them, makes them take if you don't know what's going on like under the hood, so to speak? And I think the other thing around that is actually, you know, for Nicola, like she has a four children and has basically, like, you know, prioritize that. She worked four day weeks for a number of years because she had for young, small children and she like basically, like you know, one to her boss is one day I was like Weok, like I basically could just use one extra day. I feel like I'm not doing very well at mom thing and the and the work thing and I really like just benefit from that one day, and I think that's an incredible role model and an incredible just way to be. Like look, like I can see a system that would work better for me and I just need like your support to make that happen. And obviously she had incredible people around her to make that happen, but I think just like the the boldness to kind of like this, know what you need and then actually just vocalize that. I mean, I think that's half the battle. So I think she's been truly inspirational in formative for me. That's awesome. Well, I'm definitely going to look her up. I hadn't heard of her before. When you think about you know, you just mentioned you're downloading all these books off of Amazon, and so what are some of the books that you've been reading that have had an impact on you that we can sort of follow the bread come trailer? I'd get some bin insights from. Oh my God, this is so embarrassing. I'm reading everything from like the Challenger sale to the challenger customer to fanatical prospecting to predictable prospecting, and the most hilarious thing about fanatical prospecting had, you know, had tipped Jeb Blount's basically like he'll still say things like, you know, the difference in sales between wearing like a role x and a time X is prospecting. You're like, this is amazing. When was this book written? It was written in like two thousand and sixteen, two thousand and seventeen. So it's like it was written in one thousand nine hundred and eighty two. But I think he's absolutely right. It's like, you know people who are like Ush, like I forgot, you know, Shit, I forgot to prospect, and then that's where you are. And so I think there's like a bunch of books like that. And then, obviously, you know, there's lead of the kind of classic like be to be enterprise ones, and so you know, again they are and Ross Pantheon. And then there's just like a ton of ones that I'm reading like, you know, the talent code, Culture Code, Dan Poyle, like what it means to be high performing teams, and so stuff like that. I think is also super helpful. Just look like again, like in the end, people are people and so there's something behind them that makes the tick and you're all the better forward if everyone could have an open conversation and yet to what that is so fanatical. Prospecting is the one that you just mentioned. Why are you laughing? I'M gonna look it up because because somehow that's like this is gonna like come back to me where I'm like, I made like I thought it was hilarious. The difference between like driving, you know, this car in that car comes down to prospecting. But I guess you know at the core, but it's probably true. Well, I guess it's about goal setting and about doing stuff that you don't feel like doing. And you know who doesn't want to roll x? Absolutely I used to want a roll x, but then I got an Apple Watch and the problem is that a roll x couldn't do like my heart rate and calorie counting and all that other exercise stuff. So I'm like, I don't really even know if I'd ever wear it if I had one. So there you go. Apple solved your entire problem exactly. Totally lowered my expectations from us. Now I don't need a Twentyzero one. Dan, I assume you guys are growing or hiring or if people out there are hearing this, and you know they want to. They want to get in touch with you. Maybe they want to have a coffee with you or they want to apply for a job at facebook. Are you okay with listeners reaching out to you, and what's your preferred mechanism, if so? Yeah, of course so, probably I think the best bet would to be email me the directly. It's Diane Chang, diacchng at fbcom. And Yeah, and so I mean posting is on our website. We keep pretty fairly up to date, and so that would be your...

...best bet to see if there's an opening. But yeah, we're excited to grow this team. Awesome, Diane, thanks so much for joining us on the PODCAST and I'll see you. I'll see you very soon. Thanks so much. It's been so nice to be here. By Bye. Hey, folks, this is Sam's corner. Really enjoyed that conversation with Diane Chang Wardy from facebook. Diane walked through a lot of different frameworks and a couple of them are really just about agency in your life and I think it's an important mindset. She talked about this concept of the protagonist framework. If you're late, don't say it was because the train. How many people have heard that in their lives when somebody's rolling into a meeting five minutes late and they're always blame and public transportation. And instead of doing that, flip that on its head and say, you know what, I could have left five minutes earlier. It's about taking accountability and responsibility, which in the moment may feel like you're punishing yourself, but in the long term what it does is give you control, give you back control over your life. The other thing that she mentioned is, and other people have the podcast have mentioned it, if you see an opportunity, don't don't sort of self monitor yourself. If you don't ask, you can't get right. So, if you think that you're a good candidate for a potential role, want to you raise your head, raise your hand and lean it, especially if you're a woman, I have to say, because you know when when they've done gender studies, sometimes it is women who are a little bit more reserved who will who are calibrating their expertise relative to the role in a more measured way. And you don't have to do that. If you think that you can contribute, get out of your comfort zone and go for that role. Go for that opportunity, particularly if it lines up with your career ambitions. And that's the final part of Diane's message that I think is really important. She said every five to ten years, you know, figure out your why, figure out what is your true motivation, and go five layers deep, she said, you know, get a friend that can keep saying why? Why do you want to do that? Why is that motivating to you? And I think that that's really, really important, and I've done that recently for myself, just figuring out what gets me out of bed every day and why do I want to exist, besides just making lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of money, which of course I want to do. But but it's not really about that would for me, it's about helping other people, and it really is about helping people that I particct, that in particular, that I respect, that take agency and work their asses off. Those are the people I want to see if I can accelerate their careers in some way, give them a boost and help them achieve their goals. And that's that's why I started the revenue collector for that exact purpose, and that came out of an exercise of self reflection and actually working with a personal coach. So figure out what motivates you and use that to set five and ten your goals, which is also a lesson that Danny Hertzberg from slack has also mentioned on the podcast. Now, before we go, we want to we want to give a shout out to our sponsors before we part air. Call Your Advanced Call Center software, complete business phone and contact center, one hundred percent natively integrated into any serum and outreach, a customer engagement platform that helps efficiently and effectively engage prospects to drive more pipeline and close more deals. You'll find this podcast on itunes, Google play, spotify or anywhere that you enjoy your podcasts. And if you enjoy this episode, please share with your peers on Linkedin, twitter, share it on your internal company slack. That's a new request. Put that out there and sort of the general channel, but, you know, tell people about it, because that's what keeps us on the air and that's what helps us bring great content and great guests. And if you want to get in touch with me, find me on twitter or find me on Linkedin. Linkedin's probably better for professional correspondence that's Linkedincom the word in and then Sam f Jacobs, or you can just Google Sam Jacobs. Behave ox and I will show up. So thanks for listening. We will talk to you next time and hope you had a great new year.

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