The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

4. How to 10x Your Business Using Customer Success w/ Emmanuelle Skala

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

On this episode of the Sales Hacker podcast, we talk with Emmanuelle Skala, VP of Customer Success at Toast.
What You’ll Learn:

  • How to organize and structure a Customer Success team with a specific focus on Customer Experience
  • The transformative moments in customer experience that driver customer delight
  • How to use NPS to improve revenue growth and reduce churn
  • The benefits of focusing on the post-sale moment
  • The importance of investing in Customer Success early in a company’s growth

One two one three three hi everyone and welcome to the SalesHacker podcast on your host: Sam Jacobs, Fotter, the New York revenue collective.Before we start a quick thank you to this months. Sales Hanker, podcast,sponsor noe nodes, AI discovery platform can understand the meaningcontext and connection between any person or company by proactivelysurfacing opportunities that are highly relevant and personalized in real time.Note is creating an entirely new paradigm for sales and markeingprofessionals to grow hipeline and accelerate revenent felocity visitinphodot, no don Io for WHICD, a sales tacker to learn more and now on, withthe show, welcome everybody to the Sales Hackerpodcast. It's your host Sam Jacobs. Today, we've got a great show: We'vegot a manual Scola Manuel well known in the STARTU ECO system. She's been doingthis and building businesses for the last eighteen years. She's currently vpof customer Successiv Toast, but she's also served in a number of other clientfacing functions and revenue generating functions. She led sales and success. Itotiociean she was also vp of sales at influitive, where she scaled theorganization over tenx previously in her career. She was at INDECA, whichwas acquired by Oracle for a billion dollars and Vertica, which was acquiredby HB, so emanuel were so excited to have you welcome thanks? Sams, like thebe her so first thing we want to know is your baseball card, so we know yourname is Emanuel Scala. Do you ever have any nicknames by the way Lelle? Okay? So I saw that an emailonce and I wanted to know if I could write an email that said ell, because Ilove it, yeah go for it. That's right! It's a lot. I mean Amanuelis kind of aMOUs, Ol SOEA, it's beautiful. What's your current title, Nice Pesen AdCustomer Success and where you working tost yeah well tell us about it. Whatkind of company is it? What do you guys? Do we sell a restaurant platform to youknow sor F to restaurants. Obviously, we saw mostly Tho Smba restaurants, andwe also sells enterprise and and midmarket restaurants, and it's a fullsuite of every piece of software that the restaurant would need from their PSsystem e, their backoff ans inventory management online, ordering schedulingof Resources Etctera. So it's like the the full sweet solution for restaurants.It s pretty cool, it's cool space thing, I've never done before into thisindustry, but it's cool because you it's something that I go out torestaurants, and you know I see my product in a place where you know I'malso there for personal times. It is- and I imagine it's probably fair- youknow you've been doing enterprise sales, you've done channel sales. This soundslike it's. You know, sort of high velocity transactional selling. Is thataccrt or or no it's definitely high velocity transactional? It's also inmarket, and so that's also really different is most of our reps are intheir market in their J bathic market, and so it's a localized sale for themost part and it's also a localized delivery like a serviceis delivery. Sothat's pretty unique as well. Localized services delivery. Do you mean like onPrem? So no what I mean? It's not definitely cloud based solution, butwhat I mean is that, were we actually have people post, sale, doing theonsite installations and training and follow interesting. This sounds like abusiness where lining up the unit. Economics is very, very important andyou need a great cfo and we do have a group but yeah blinding up the unit.Economics is pretty important, but we have pretty phenomenal unit ECOPIC, soyeah. I think that's but we're hardwor thos ANA software business and we'realso the credit card processor. So there's we have at three L, three o BatNewe Tams, Oh wow, okay, and how big is toast, give us a range just so we canframe it appropriately or private company. So we don't do revenue range,but I can tell you that it's the significant and it's you know, but weare doubling every year, so we have published our fundraising. So that'ssomething that I can share. Be Our...

SERIESC, which we close this pastsummer was a hundred one million. You raised a hundred one million. That wasthe series scene. So over total eds over o e hundred and fifty was a hundred one million that was donethis this past pring, very good, that's impressive, yeah, the post money on ahundred million is significant, so I'm sure that you guys are well north offifty million, hopefully what's the size of your organization, so you runcustomer success. How big is that three hundred people three hundred people,amazing yeah, so the company is eigt. Fifty wee grown really fast. We wereabout three hundred a year ago, a nowere, eight fifty and the two biggestteams are the sales team and then the customer success tea now customersuccess. People often think of it. As you know, just sort of your csms oryour you know quote unquote account managers that I have a lot more thanjust that, and here it te. So my team is composed of five differentdepartments. So we have our services team, which does all the installationand deployments. Then we have our support team, which is your you know,sort of traditional twenty four seven support, and then I have your customersuccess team. You know you an typically think of as custoer success. We call itrestaurant success, which you relationship managers essentially andthen I have our customer education team and then the last one is our customer.Experience am wow. That's a lot of teams. Did all of those teams existprior to your arrival? Did you create those teams? What was I'm interested inthe organizational design hypothesis that led to all of these elements yeah?So some of them did and some of them are new. The customer success wasn't anumbrella organization, as it is now. My role is new to the company. Thedepartments were reporting straight up to the CEO prior to my arrival inSeptember. So services team is always existed. You know, and with a prettysimilar mission to take our customers live. The support team is also alwaysexisted with a similar missions. O support the inbound requests that arecoming in and questions that are coming in I've changed the mission of theAccount Management Team to be much more consultative and proactive, created avery customer, focused education, team and created the customer experience O,and why I mean you know the we just there's a couple: Rason Services Ust,like I said, support, didn't change on the kind of relationship managementside or what people typically refer to as customer success. The teampreviously was really reactive and almost like an extension of support,and what I was recognizing was that our customery, what they really wanted, wasespecially our customers, who had been using the product for four or five sixyears. They didn't have a great way outside of your normal. You know: Email,communications and y w some of th marketing road shows and events that wedid to really understand. What's new and toast, and how can they base y knowthek best take advantage of our technology? How can they get the mostvalue out of it? U Now? How do thit do they understand our PARTMERICO system?All those things we really needed? Ha Team that was focused on value,realization and also upselling, because as we scale, our product were addingmore and more capabilities to the product, and our sales team is, youknow, primarily focused on one o need business, and so that's why Irebrandedto restaurant success and I kind of changed the mission of thatteam and then th the education team. You Think Pos is an easy thing tounderstand, but education of our you know how to use a cloud base system andhow to take advantage of all the you know. All the various attributes of thesystem is something that we have to be created and put a lot of attention on.So that is a team that now reports through MES, because it's prettystrategic and then the last one is the experience. Team am a big believer inin NPS and like I, especially in an industry like the restaurant industry,where the restaurant owners are to tighten it community were a verylocompany. They talk got ow to each other all the time you know they're,opening new restaurants, ther...

...recollending products of their friends,and so having someone focused on customer experience and improving theNPS and having a small team do that was, is, I think, pretty critical tobuilding a company that's going to scale, so the customer experience team.How are they different than? I guess the Account Management Team? theyare?They don't own account, so they don't have you know a portfolio of accountsthat R are theirs. They look across every department, not just in my owndepartment, but they look across product and finance and marketing andsales and every department and look at are ther ways that we can improve. Thecustomer experience are other ways that we can essentially that the kymetricfor them is our NPS for so ou. Maybe it's the sales to services handoff myknees, improvement of maybe it's how we said expectoat or maybe it's howquickly we are't a a piece of hardware. You know the woman who leads that teamtalks about often talks about the makers and the breakers like there's.There's certain moments Wen. There's a book I recently red called the power ofmoments, which I think is great and we use some of that material and that tothink about how moments in a customer life cycle can really make or break theexperience, and sometimes it's like the smallest moment that can make thebiggest difference or the opposite, which is the smallest moment that canruin ar relationship, and you wouldn't think oh someone's going to churn orget angry over this small little moment. But for them that moment is critical,so identifying what those moments are and making sure that we're doing thebest we can in the makers and the and that were improving and not letting thethings that could break a relationship or break. You know trust with ourcustomers that that those things aren't ixisting and they aren't getting inthee with E business results. That's really interesting, and so the salehappens. The handoff is to essentially is it. Is it an onboarding team yeahessentially, and it's a multistep process when you, if you're a restaurant, yourpos system is your heart and Stoul. I mean you're, taking all your ordersthrough that it's you know, has all your menu you're running of your entirebusiness. All your you know your Passon, your predit card transactions are goingthrough. It's a complex implementation, but yeah. Essentially it goes to ourservices team, who is responsible for the onboarding, the installation,deployment and training. That's incredible! So you know I'm curious.You have built your career previously to toast being responsible for newbusiness generation and formelly being designated. You know the head of thesales function and I know that you've run success in the past clearly, butwalk us through. You know the your thought process when you're thinkingabout your next step in your career and how you decided to take this role withtoast and why you know what the pluses and minuses were specifically focusingand designating at customer success. That's TAT's a great question in a bitof a journey. Might I think it's I'm not going to go Belabor with my wholebackground, but I will say that I kind of even got into sales in a bet of anunusual way to benking, with my early pre even being in software salesbackground was all it was an operations, and then I moved into kind of parleythat into sales operations, and then I parleyed that into running sales andfor a long time in my career, I was looking at sales from a very operation.Se Way like so I was looking. I ran channel sales that accompany for fiveyears, because channel is an efficient way to go to market. I ran inside salesfor a number of years, because inside is an efficient way to go to market. Ijoined Digital Otian and was responsible for sales there and that'sa pro led model and agot another efficient way to go to market. So Ispent at Ha trend of looking, for you know, what' What are the most efficientways of going to market because of my operations background and one of thethings that I realized, and it was TAT influeted that it really struck me wasthat in its aspiration, especially in SAS, and how much Tass as taken off inthe last ten years. My we have this the...

...fascination and aspiration withefficiency of our go to market model, and but we were often doing it at theexpense. At the customer experience I and at the expense of NPS or happycustomers, and it's only been recently when you've had these like super virroproducts and like product lead models, you know like slack or digital ocean orothers that are started to you know get back to. Okay, our goal is to you know,create raving fans, you know as a business, but I think that got lost inSert ofthy early days assass, and what I notice is that the more your focus onefficiency, the more we were seeing bad customer experience, and that wasstarting to show up and turn. And then you know you five years ago you knowyou, L, look at ANYNBC and what people were writing about and it was all about.You know your funnel and your cap to Ltb, and how do you make sure you're,looking at your LTB and thow? Does your turn play into that etc? And then thebook customer success was been born, Igh as a function, not only to you know,to take customers live or to on board them or to make them successful. Butyou know, frankly, a lot of the reasons why it was created was turm prerventionand you know, because company started having these leaky buckets and it justsort of dawned on me that like well how we found the pendulun too far- and youknow- Is there a way that we can have both highly efficient go to marketmodel and I you know, have a happy customers. I started to get more andmore fascinated with how do you have boths by and how do you generate happycustomers and, like I said, inplodeims going to kick this. This offer mebecause hat we were in the business of creating advocate programs. You knowwhich is all about leveraging your customers to help scale your business,and you can't do that unless you have advocates. So that led me to think.Well, maybe you know a blend of customer success. N and sales is reallythe right thing. We can talk more about my thinking on where the industryoverall is headed. Toast I've been talking otous for a while. These are X,colleagues from INDECA, so I've known what they've been up to and one day theyou know pose friend of mine called me and said: I have a crazy idea: yeahwe'd love to bring you in to toast to go to market model and h. This tavsleadership is amazing here like, but how about running customer success andit was for me it was the right time, because I was starting to get reallyintrigued by this notion of kind of. Can you have your cake and eatit to andas a sales leader that was pretty obsessed with trying to figure out. Ihave a great customer experience already. I kind of seemed like a nobrainer, so I jumped full blown into the post sales side of the world andit's been the last six months. Welli still miss there's somethings off sales.I miss absolutely so I'm not necessarily saying that this is foreverfor me, but right now hat Yoa. What do you think the biggest differences are?So you know now that again in digital ocean, I mean think almost all of theroles I've had recently IAM running both and I'm sure, there's benefits anddisadvantages now, as somebody that is just focused on. Obviously your focuson the entire customer experience, but you're specifically focused on thepostsale moment to use your word. whate are the biggest differences, Cos Cenare,not o Revenue Center right right now, quite so, like it's a pretty bigdifference N as an executive, I've never been as focused on margins andefficiency and the Tay things as I am right now, because sales honestly kindof can get away, sometimes with you know not being as efficient as as Yomeed. Today. As long as you're hitting your number, sometimes boards and CEOScan ndcfis Goin turn a little bit of Blindee. So that's one, that's realtybig. Does that mean that you're not obviously don't need to know any of thenumerical details but that, for example, your plan, your personal plan isfocused on margin or it's a KPI of the business. How does margin make its wayinto sort of your operating dashboard yeah? So I mean I one of the things Imeasured on is margin, so I am measured on revenue because we are responsiblefor taking our customers lives, and so that is a revenue number. So I havefour metrics that I measured on ind measure, Don revenue margin andcustomer NPS and employee NBS. So those...

...are the things I care about and theinteresting th, the. I think the tricky part is move a plimpom ps out for asecond, because every executive shouldnow, an employee MPs, but what Ifind challenging about being in the customers success that especially whenI also have a revenue target is the balance of the three is the balance ofyou know: Kepa High MPs and go be efficient and drive rebbithelp and it'shard to find the right balance. It's really easy to keep a highnps and havecrappy margins might just grow a lot of bodies at a problem. Fine by or it'seasy to get revenue targets and not your margin targets. You know orHiwevena targets and not your NPS targets, but finding that right balancebetween how much effort you put into r MPs efforts and how much effort you putinto your margins and your efficiency and how much effort HEU put intorevenue. We were historically my world while yeah as an executive, I had towatch cost and I had budgets and all those kind of things, but really at theend of the day, if you're a sales leader, it's revenue, revenue, revenueand everything also sort of third or fourth, where it is' absolutely notthat here it is a a very tight rope that I'm balancing those three andvirtually equal, which is new. For me, it's just y kind of flect to skills inbeing watching efficiency and and margin and andps more walk us through.I don't know if there's a specific example, because I guess I think if youhave the wrong product or if you have a product, that's not ready to scale,then then none of those things are possible and I would think, conversely,there's a balancing act at the stage that you guys are at but walk usthrough some of the trade offs at that you think about. Is it maybe, forexample, how hard to enforce an auto renewal clause- and you know, give ussome examples, yeah sure. So I mean it can be something like what part of thecustomer journey do you autome, and what part do you have lhite glovetreatment right when you are selling to smb, and especially in a hospitalityindustry, which is what we're selling into there's a high expectation ofwhite glove treatment, because that's how they treat their with the WhiteClob Chamet? We can't necessarily afford to be as white glove with everysingle customer as we would you know ultimately like to which would give us.You know mind boggling and yeah scores Right, so we have to make decisionsabout what part of the customer journey are we going to give white globtreatment and what are the customer journy a we not going to get whitegluve treatment and and we're going to ask people to do selfservice or otherthings like? What are some examples there ghat example would be. You knowwhen, like the the actual transition from one pos system to another, becausetit'is all t a financial harm soul of a restaurant, that is a those that firstday that first week when someone goes live that process of relearning. Asystem, especially if you're you know, transitioning off, of the legacy whichmany of our customers are. That really does require you no and like glove. Youknow treatment, but you know we call it. You know a week down the road when theyneed to order a new printer, and do we really? We don't need to have like yeaha human being show up and you know, hand deliver a printer wo. Cul probablyhave them go online order, their printer get a shipd, never talk tohuman being yeah, that's a decision right, an the other. We had to makethat says all right, we're going to do the installations live and we're goingto have people on site, but yeah after the initial instalation we're going to?U Sell Service and automation to support. You know some of thetransactional needs of our customers. Some people don't want to do theonboarding as an example, many couns, many Saus companies do onboardingvirtual and while we will, we will and do for certain classic customers thatdon't need the on premise. You know live in person support. We don'tbelieve at for our business. We're willing to spend the money there, sothose are some of the kinds f decisions that I have to think through is: Wheredo we want to spend our money? What...

...value we going to get out of it? What'sthe balance of how much is it going to cost US versus how much we're going toachieve in either an MPs or revenue? You know benefit yeah? That makes a lotof sense. You know you've had the benefit of working at very smallcompanies Youre now at what I would probably consider a medium sizelargecompany, and I think one of the things some people might be thinking asthey're hearing about all the different functions and roles within just thecustomer Success Organization is: How do you know when to start buildingthose teams, given that Youve seen the full spectrum of scaling size fromprobably preproduct market foot, all the way to where you're at now? Whatare your strategies or how do you think about building those teams and when tobuild those teams and how you know it's the right time? Yeah, it's a goodquestion, so it depends on your e model, whether you're, you know Gointo do afreemium or free trial or product lead. You know selfservice or whether it's anenterprise solution that requires sort of super high touch go to market.So my answer would depends to pase on what your business moteral is, but ingeneral, even despite the business model, nuances which would lead me intoone direction or another is, I think we invest in customer success to late. I,and actually was just listening this morning to read. Hoffman has hismasters a scale podcast, and it was this particular one was about theimportance of early on the importance of customers who love you and not. Youknow just like you and how you can create viral effects and a D networkeffects by just maniacly being focused on your. You know ten customers andmaking sure that they, you n, they absolutely love you and then their nexthundred customers and then obviously the power of at because see they'llbring to you the next hundred in the next hundred in next hundred and soforth. I think that customer the companies, even if you're superenterprise and you have a really high touch, go to market model. If you don'thave somebody who is whos goal is ttare. This customer gets Y ow unbelievablevalue from the product in the service and will be a waving fan. Then you'reabsolutely missing an opportunity and to tennx your business with asignificantly less investment. The good there was a. They gave a story in thepodcast about the bakery in New York. Who sells you know the pronuts and likehow he didn't put any effort into he didn't market it. He didn't do anypublicity stunts. He didn't do anything. He just had e out the door every day ofhundreds and hundreds of people waiting to try a CRONA, and then this created aphenomena over you know of people. Copying is pronents etce, just becausea word of mouth- and you know a couple- happy customers, ot the very beginningand then the way he continued to trat his customers as they were waitingoutside in the line and the cold, delivering them hot chocolate, etc. SoI think it's early like really early the more product led you are the morecelfl service than it's even potentially before sales, and obviouslythe more kind of high touch yourselles model is and maybe at the same timeyou're such a big proponent of NPS. Obviously everybody wants, you know aseventy or eighty or and ninety. How do you you know for you? What sort ofgreen, yellow bred in terms of you know, hey things are going well like. We feellike we're still in good scaling mode. You know the customers are stilldelighted versus actually we're starting to see some marning signs, andmaybe we need to go back and breaththink or go to Marca strategyversus hey. This is not the time to be investing and go to market. It lookslike customers really don't like what we're doing. Are there numbers orproxies that you use to help inform those decisions, their NBA standardsthat are across all industries of what's good, what' great, what'sexcellent, but the nuances within an industry are so different that it'sreally hard like you. If you look at the airline industry as an example Wey,you know the in the airline industry of thirty. It may be phenomenal right, soyou do have to compare yourself to your...

...industry. That's one fanamet in general,the kind of rough roll of Thum is anything below zero is not good. Youknow, zero to thirty is eiou know thirty. To to fifty is good, as youknow, doing pretty good, and you know like above. Seventy is amazing, mighand sort of best in class you're. Now you're talking, nords Coman Disney. Youknow kind of best in class, but you do have to Loik it your industry, but Ithink more important than a number because listen to like Bhas, just onenumber, you coald overemphasize. Anyone number that you know you R that you'relooking at, I think, what's more important than the number tha is thecontext. I don't like to get fixated on, what number we are and how much it'sgone up or down and we do do MPs every month, so we are do look at it and wecare about it. But I want the context, so he to me it's the comments that youknow are put in or it's the feedback that we get when we do. Our Post surveyfollow up and we follow up with both of the tractors and the promoters, and youknow I if we don't get any kind of comments and we we listen and we learnabout what's causing them to be a attractor or a promoter, and then wemake you know distrigutic decisions based off of that. So I don't reallytry to get fuxated on the score. I try to get fuxated on the the commentaryand then also I correlate. You know that the MPs day that was other datalike what is our support ticket data telling us and what you know, what arethe anecdotal things we're hearing from sales and en we have an advocacyprogram here at Tellus? What's that telling us me, you can't look at onething in general to get a good pust of where you are, but in general, if wefeel like overall we're starting to hear both anecdotal negativity and orthere's you know, a score is decreasing. Then we quickly identify what webelieve is the root cause and put project plans together to improve thoseareas of the customer experience and then you know, correlate, we see anyimprovement and that could be tickets on a certain topbac topic or it couldbe an NPS score or something else. I like your point about not focusing onon one particular number, so I guess you mentioned earlier what your kpisare, but if you're thinking about like an operating dash for to provide youthat pulse on overall health of the postsale business, do you look at bothunit etention and sort of Igess net revenue rettension, including upcells?You look at all of it. Do you look at NPS. Whet are all the things thatyou're looking at, and I guess the other thing that I think is helpful tohear from you is what's Ta leading indicator from your perspective and alogging indicator, because I think a lot of times people get sixated onthings that are so late in the lifecycle of He. The phase that they'reinvestigating it's not really as useful revenue is the least useful thing,often times to look at from the news. Business Perspective and turn is oftenthe least useful thing, because it's a thing that happens at the end so walkus through sort of your operating dashboard, yeah, no problem. So it'sbecause of the varied nature of the different departments that I run. It'sthere's very few things that are across all departments. The things that areacross all departments are curned, like everybody can have an you know, has theability to influence turn positively, because there's a lot of folks outthere that are not measuring turn the right way. So how do you guys measureit just just so that everybody knows the exact calculation, so the exactcalculation is. We do generally do revenue turn, but we also can do unitturn right. It kind of depends on your business, whether you want to do one orboth. I encourage people to do both revenue turn and unit turn it's theamount of revenue or units that have left the business that particularperiod over the total mount of Revenur units that you have in the company ightwe slice and dace it by turn reason you know, as you canimagine, in the SNB world we have an in restaurant industry. We have a bunch ofCuste Westfrends TAT, just G, they go out of business, so we look at out ofbusiness turn versus non at a business curnn competitive turn. You know solike we just we look at a turn in different ways. What the most importantthing about turm is. Obviously the...

...number is important and how you measureit's important, but why it's happening is thit's the most important. So if youcan have multiple categories, that's going to help you get a betterindication of what's causing the Thurns that you can fix. Yeah, that's how Iinterrupted you before. So that's true, and what else are you looking at?Obviously onps andps to look across all of it? On the revenue side, we look atlive revenue, which is our booked revenue, we're sorry, our bill postinstallation. We also look at up South Revenue Wich separate, so we have aseparate number for live and the separate number for upsol and thenobviously turn is another revenue impacting number and then on the sortof efficiency side we look at margin, cost a good sold, and then I havequality metrics that I look at, and so that is things like. You know, numberof tickets. After a go, live you kno number of tickets overall by customer,because it can just indicate you know the quality of the installation or thegoal life process. So those are the areas in general and then yeah. There'slots of support, metricxs, Myh first call resolution and you know time toanswer a call and see, sat and other things, but the high level ones of theones I mentioned earlier. It's the red, the ones that are tied to revenue arethe ones that are tied to costs. hones that are tied to NPS and quality. Wasit hard? You mentioned that when you got to toast? I guess I don't know ifit's the success team or specifically the Count Management Team, but was inyour words, reactive. Was it difficult to shift the culture to a moreproductive stance? And maybe even you know, if you're focusing on upsells tomore of what might be called a sales orientation when maybe some of thefolks that joined the team were explicitly joining a successorganization because they didn't want to be in sales? Yes, Leinpesto in progress of and is yeah,it's been tricking. I think so that that's that's actually something that'sgoing on. You know at a macro level to riket. Remember what I said Ban beforeright. So the customer success was created. You know out of Sass, becausethe reality is, you can lose your customers and with Sass, when you're ona monthly or portarly your annual susciption, you can lose your customerdustas easily as you acquire y actually more than you acquired your customer,you kind of have to resell every day. You know make sure the customersgetting value, and so it was started that way, but it was started as a nonrevenue focus job. The very first customa success team, I remember, wassales forse and he it was all about best practices. You know, are yougetting the most out of sell sforce like that was kind of the role Henyoadded onboarding onto that you know over time and in overtime hand, you hada turn so wil not turn like pretention, essentially like now. Now you have toonboard them. You have to make sure that they're using the product andtheir best practices and you got to keep them, and then we added upsell.You know over time on that and overall customer success is turning more andmore and more into a revenuteam. I especially for companies that, butbased on their market dynamics, are based on Noto, something potentiallyhave a high degree of churn bight. So now you need your customer success teamnot to just onbor people and know the best practices, but you're constantlyreselling. So you think about like, if you lose a champion or you knowsomething in the dynamics of your customer changes- you're, not just hey.How do you make sure they're using the reporting as well as they can, butyou're? Maybe going back to that executive, sponsoring reselling theentire value of why theyre theyare to begin with, so the skill set of thecustomer success person has absolutely gone overall in the industry and it'shappening in the Microcosim here toast. But it's gone from. You know a morereactive. You know more touchy feely, you know support you know or customerservice, I should say type person to Melch more revenue focus type person.It's tricky to find an it's a tricky balance, because if you're too revenuefocus, then you know you're going to...

...lose tress with the customer you're notgoing to be able to Otentally Ke, you know keep their business because Ithink you're going to your so coto focused. But if you're not revenuefocused at all Ik, then you can be either wildly inefficient or give awaythe farm or just not be able to either save or upsell or get the most valueyou can. I think some companies are dealing with this in a bunch ofdifferent ways. One of them is, they are maybe creating an accountmanagement team that is, revenue focused, but some other part of thesuccess or customer service organization. That is not revenue,focused Yep and revenue and senovise, and then I think, at the enterpriselevel, it's even more different because sometimes you're just saying thesalesperson that sold the deal maintains that relationship maybe intoperpetuity, or at least for the first year, have you seen those differentmodels and do you have a preference? And how do you think about thatpreference? I agree. I think the more what I've seen is definitely a bit of aconvergence and the, and I also would inneus pointod this out earlier. Idefinitely H ve seen customer success in sales starting to be under the sameleader right, so whether the individual contributors are different or not. Ihave seen more and more at the leadership level mean the cro title iskind of a fairly new title, and often nuts customer success and sales, and soI' definitely seen that the leadership level at the individual contributorlevel. It often depends on how product led you are, how enterprise versus SMBor or transactional. You are how much upcell is actually part SOM. Somebusinesses don't have any ability. Dups Ou is just a one and done right is howmuch upsell do you. You know have what is the stickiness factor of yourproduct and those are probably to make a difference in whether you need threepeople, one for new business, one for post business quote unquote, sales, andone for like relationship and onboarding or whethe you're ging toneed even just one person right. Some organizations are going to have oneperson if they're really transactional more product led. This was adigitalition. You didn't necessarily need to have a new business person andan onboarding person, a relationship person and a post sales revenue person.We could actually blend those all into into one person, so I do think it verymuch depends on the on the business model, but what I am saying is that asmore and more companies are becoming product led and then rwe are starting to see thoseroles starting to consolidate down to potentially one role, yeah. I've seenthat as well last question on the specific topic. So I'm curious becauseyou have so many different types of people reporting up to you. Do you havea point of view on which roles should have incentive, compen or variable compand which should just be listen? This is your bas salary. This is your job,or do all of them have some kind of variable component to them in perfectworld. I would love, I think, in a high grosth startup, which, even thoughwe're employee wise were beyond Ar that phase, we're still doubling revenue sowe're so super high growth ben in the perfect world. Everybody has some kindof bonus structure. I am a big believer in like yeah, okay, ours and stretchedgoals and in senting people to go. You know, above and beyond you knowwhatever it is, that that may be their bolls. I think, coming from thebactgrund of incentive comp, I think that's a good motivator. I don'tnecessarily think everyone should have like a fit. Fifty complic a salesperson,but I do like the kind of incentive program, so that's like in a perfectworld, but the reality is some yea. Some companies can't do that and someroles don't require it, but I always try to find if I can't do it fromcoperspective either because of legal poy legal reasons. I do have a goodpercentage of non exempt employees, then I try to do another waste, and soI try to find you know it's not the same as pash necessarily but whether itcould be stock or bonuses or spot awards or prizes or recognition orsomething. But human beings in general are motivated by goals and byrecognition, and so I think it role should have some kind of incentiveprograme. I just may not look and smell...

...like commissions. I think that wordthat you mentioned recognition is really the key to it. I think that it'sat every level- it's not even at the junior level, but everybody wants somelevel of recognition for the good works that they do. Yeah it doesn't have toBA cash. You don't recognize people lit, you sell a deal. You get a hundredbucks right, it doesn't have to e cash. It can be. You know, an award. Wordsare cheap to Ou, know like it's a piece of paper or a shoutout you, but it canhave the same psychological benefit as a commission check hen. I know that youknow in sales were constantly thinking of multiple ways of recognizing peopleoutside of just commissions, and I think that idea can be used across alldepartments. Even if you can't commission your place yeah, I agree.We've got a little bit of time left and one of the things I think a lot ofpeople are wondering at least I'm wondering you're, obviously anaccomplished and incredible revenue leader both on the saleside and thesuccess side. You're. Also, of course, a woman. What advice do you have, orwould you like to give to folks that are coming up through the ranks thatare women, because we're all talking about diversity, you know is sometimesputting into practice, seems more difficult, at least from the salesperspective, where you know trying to find great female leaders to promoteand to be make part of the executive team? Is it conscious effort and, fromyour perspective, I'm sure, you're facing all kinds of challenges, allkinds of unconscious bias every day? So what advice would you give to? You knowthe the twenty three year old twenty four year old woman that starting outher career and startups and how you managed it and what advice HEU wouldshare with them yeah. So I would say I never really it didn't even dawn on mehonestly, like I would say, intool became vpsales that even dawned on methat I was not that. Obviously I knew I was a woman. Bu O know me that therewas like t. It would be something that even mattered right. You know I in myearly days I just focused on you know getting my job done. Achieving you knowlike at a high level of competency. You O seeking out you know extra projects,a looking for ways of adding value to the company. I just wanted to be a goodemployee like really- and I don't have not. I don't- have a shy personality,and so I was always willing to talk about my opinions and my beliefs andshare them and wanted to get involved in multiple ways in the you know aroundthe organization, so I can have more values, so my advice Wuld, be, I is, isone speakup. Your voice is valued everyone's voices bout. I mean franklymy advice for a woman, be the same as my advice F for a man, but I is likeyour opinions. Valued speak up. I that's the first thing, the second one,maybe a little more women, because I think women tend to beat themselves upmore and tend to self doubt, but more than men do right. But like Yo TrustYourself, like you trust your instinct, don't doubt yourself you'll makemistakes. You know but learn from them a versus the having the mistake andprevent you from even failing again in the future, and I think that's prettyimportant and then honestly don't play the woman card and don't reallyemphasize the woman thing, because someone asked me once the question likean an interview with said: How is it different being a female executive andI was like it not like: I have goals, you have goals Mi I want to achieve myboals. You want to achieve your bolls wit. Certain things were expected to doas a leader. You know manager, employees, you know, provide a great.You know work environment, you o achieve business goals at the end ofthe day. It's the same, and so I tried, if you cou, put too much emphasis onthe differences. I think it's going to actually do you with disservice andjust focus on the things that are the same. I think that's good advice lastfew questions, so we can pay it forward. A little bit tell us some of yourmentor, some of your influences, maybe some of the books that had a big impacton you, some of the podcast Yore listening to. If we want to keepfollowing the bread crum trail of the things that created and the inflencesthat created Elscala, what are those things and who are those people sure so,let's say God books. I have a like an hour commute every day, so I'm nowdoing all my books audio. So I get a...

...lot of stuff read that way. I mentionedthe power of moments. That's a recent one! I just finishedfan a radical candor and Ken Scotts work there, and I just finished thatand I just finished work rules, love extreme ownership. That was one of myfavorite books. I just think there's so much in the idea of like, especially inthe startup world, when I a' truly owning the power of one just read thatto or not just but that was recently onmy on my list, so those are probablythe ones at read in the last four or five months that I hat stood out to me,the podcast, so I kind of Flip Sop bothwitbetween podcast and audio books on my commutes, and sometimes I want to dolike my list. PODCAST witis, his name Howeevernoa from Ento daily, Show daily, show yeah solike sometimes just want tune out a little bit from business books andright now t I, like the the serial style mystery. You know kind of real.You know kind of crying story, so I'm doing Atlanta Monster Right now, whichis another one of those serial type podcast, but on the business side,temberis seeking wisdom, the radical candor that the Kem ScottMasters scill read, Hofsman a so read, Homan one and then I also look Tou theANZ, the andreson horror, wits bast. I think they have a pretty good one. Sothose are some of the business ones great and then any mentors any greatpeople and start up land that we should be thinking about. Hor. Following Imean I follow like t e, the typical ones yeah. When I first became a vpsaos,I actually aske Brendan Cassiny to be my mentor. He's been a great mentor tome and my early days of running sales. You know I follow the sort of typicalpeople in the influenceor category and the VC world, like Youa Jason Linconsor your avid scocks in the customer, successful Lincoln Murphy, Nickmada, sokind of the hose who, like nobody, that you haven't heard before and thenobviously, in terms of like women, you know Cheryl, Samberg and yeah. Iabsolutely look up to a lot of strong women leaders that are making you knowhaving a voice. I personally fom mental perspective I like to have dozens ofventors hit serve like a slightly different purpose. My you KN, like I,have a really close friend WHO's, a female CEO, and so when it comes tolike female leadership and K, you know how is that my next step she's? Theperson I go to when it comes to sales stuff, O Miy, call Brandon. When it youknow what it's a I like having a dozen people, I can go do for differentthings. I think that's great advice, a man youell. Thank you so much forjoining us today. If folks want to reach out to, are you open to that? Andwhat's your preferred channel Surei'm so preferred would either be twitter orLindon. Yo can connect with me on Lington and twitter is at l, SCOLAELLESK Ala awesome. Thank you so much for participating. We will see you in thefuture and and I'll be in touch tooen thanks again, thanks Sam. This is Sam's corner great interviewwith Emmanual scalavp of success at Toast Immanuel really sheds a lot oflight on the scale and complexity of a fully scale Customer SuccessOrganization when you've got eight hundred and fifty people in the company,one of the other things that she pointed out just for frame of referencewhen you're evaluating NPS, so anything below zero, probably think aboutwhether or not you should be scaling at all. Consider not investing in anyfurther go to market if your NPS is below zero zero to thirty, that's theyellow range north of thirty, maybe up to fifty or sixty that's the green andthen bright green is north of fift or sixteen, maybe all the way up toseventy. So when you're thinking about measuring net promotor score the otherthing that Manuel mentioned, she does it every month and she's. Looking atthe comments, not just the score she's tracking tremline in the score, butalso looking specifically at the...

...comments. Final thought: She's fallingup with every single person. That leaves a comment positive or a negative.So they'se been some debate in the past, whether that's appropriate the manualas saying do it, regardless of positive or negative score. This has been Sam'scorner thanks. So much for listening to check out the show, notes, seeupcoming guests and play more episodes from our incredible lineup of salesleaders visit sales, hackercom podcast. You can also find the sales tackingpodcast on itunes or Copol play. If you enjoyed this episode, please give us ashare, Om Linke in twitter or any other social media platform and finallyspecial thinks again to this month, sponsor at no Seymore at Info Dot. NoteDot, IO, fords sales tacker. Finally, if you want to get in touch with me,find me on twitter, at Sam f Jacobs or on Linkdon at linoncom, H, inlah, Sam F,Jacobs, I'll, see you next time.

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