The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 4 years ago

4. How to 10x Your Business Using Customer Success w/ Emmanuelle Skala

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

On this episode of the Sales Hacker podcast, we talk with Emmanuelle Skala, VP of Customer Success at Toast.
What You’ll Learn:

  • How to organize and structure a Customer Success team with a specific focus on Customer Experience
  • The transformative moments in customer experience that driver customer delight
  • How to use NPS to improve revenue growth and reduce churn
  • The benefits of focusing on the post-sale moment
  • The importance of investing in Customer Success early in a company’s growth

... the sales hacker podcast. I'm your host, Sam Jacobs, founder of the New York revenue collective. Before we start, a quick thank you to this month's sales hacker podcast sponsor node. NODES AI discovery platform can understand the meaning, context and connection between any person or company by proactively surfacing opportunities that are highly relevant and personalized in real time. Note is creating an entirely New Paradigm for sales and marketing professionals to grow pipeline and accelerate revenue velocity. Visit Info dotnode DOT ioh forward sales hacker to learn more. And now on with the show. Welcome everybody to the Sales Hacker podcast. It's your host, Sam Jacobs. Today we've got a great show. We've got a Manuel Scala. Emmanuel wellknown in the start up ecosystem. She's been doing this and building businesses for the last eighteen years. She's currently vp of customers success at toast, but she's also served in a number of other client facing functions and revenue generating functions. She led sales and success it to dewelotion. She was also vp of sales at influidive, where she scaled the organization over X. previously in her career she was at INDECCO, which was acquired by Oracle for a billion dollars, and Vertica, which was acquired by HB. So, Emmanuel, were so excited to have you. Welcome. Thanks, Sam. Excite to be here. So first thing we want to know is your baseball card. So we know your name is Emmanuel Scala. Do you ever have any nicknames? By the way, l El okay, so I saw that an email once and I wanted to know if I could write an email that said l because I love it. Yeah, go for it. That's all right. It's a lot. I mean, Emmanuel's kind of a mouthful. So it's beautiful. What's your current title? Vice President of customer success, and where you working? Toast? Yeah, we'll tell us about it. What kind of company is it? What you guys do? We sell a restaurant platform to, you know, sort of two restaurants. Obviously we saw mostly the SNDA restaurants, but we also saw that enterprise and and mid market restaurants and it's a full suite of every piece of software that the restaurant would need from their pos system, while their back office inventory management, online ordering, scheduling of resources, etc. So it's like the the full suite solution for restaurants. Pretty cool. It's cool space than I've never done before into this industry. But it's cool because, you it's something that I go out too restaurants and I, you know, I see my product in a place where, you know, I'm also there for personal times. It's meat. It is and I imagine it's probably fair. You know, you've been doing enterprise sales, you've done channel sales. This sounds like it's, you know, sort of high velocity transactional selling. Is that accurate or or no? It's definitely high velocity transactional. It's also in market, and so that's also really different. Is Most of our reps are in their market, in their geographic market, and so it's a local eyes cell for the most part, and it's also a localized delivery, like a services delivery. So that's pretty unique as well. Localized services delivery, do you mean like on Prem so no, what I mean it's not. It's a definitely cloud based solution, but what I mean is that where we actually have people post sale doing the on site installations and training and allow interesting. This sounds like a business who are lining up the unit economics. Is Very, very important and you need a great cfo and we do have a group. So yeah, lining up the unit economics is pretty important, but we have pretty phenomenal unit economics. So yeah, I think that we're a hard work there's hand, a software business, and we're also the credit card processor. So there's we have three, lot three, weadny streams. Oh Wow, okay, and how big is toast? Give us a range just so we can frame it appropriately. We're private company, so we don't do revenue range, but I can tell you that it's the significant and it's you know, we're doubling every year. So we have published our fundraising. So that's something that I can share with the our...

...series C, which we close this past summer, was a hundred and one million, raised, a hundred and one million. That was the series Ce. So over totals over one hundred and fifty. Seriously, was a hundred one million. That was done this this past spring. Very good. That's impressive. Yeah, the post money on a hundred million is significant. So I'm sure that you guys are well north of fifty million, hopefully. What's the size of your organization? So you run customer success. How big is that? Three hundred people? Three hundred people, amazing. Yeah, so the company is eight hundred and fifty and we grown really fast. We were at about three hundred a year ago and now or eight hundred and fifty. And the two biggest teams are the sales team and then the customer success team. Now, customer success people often think of it as, you know, just sort of your CSM's or your you know, quote unquote, account managers. That I have a lot more than just that. And here at Tos. So my team is composed of five different departments. So we have our services team, which does all the installation and deployments. Then we have our support team, which is, you're took, you know, sort of traditional seven support, and then I have your customer success team. You know, you can typically think of a customer success. We call it restaurant success, which our relationship managers essentially, and then I have our customer education team and then the last one is our customer experience team. Wow, that's a lot of teams. Did all of those teams exist prior to your arrival? Did you create those teams? What was I'm interested in the organizational design hypothesis that led to all of these elements. Yeah, so some of them did and some of them are new. The customer success wasn't an umbrella organization. Is it is now. My role is new to the company. Any the departments were reporting straight up to the CEO prior to my arrival and in September. So the services team is always existed in with a pretty similar mission to take our customers live. The support team is also always existed with a similar mission to support the inbound requests that are coming in and questions that are coming and I've changed the mission of the Count Management Team to be much more consultative and proactive, created a very customer focused education team and created the customer experience team. And why? I mean you know the we just there's a couple reason. Services. It's, like I said, support didn't change. On the kind of relationship management side, or what people typically refer to as customer success, the team previously was really reactive and almost like an extension of support, and what I was recognizing was that our customers, what they really wanted, was, especially our customers who had been using the products for four, five, six years. They didn't have a great way outside of your normal, you know, email communications and some marketing road shows and events that we did to really understand what's new and toast and how can they base, you know, the best take advantage of our technology? How can they get the most value out of it? How do they do they understand our partner ecosystem? All those things. We really needed a team that was focused some value realization and also upselling because as we scale our product, were adding more and more capabilities to the product and our sales team is primarily focused on winning new business, and so that that's why, I know, rebranded to restaurant success and I kind of change the mission of that team. And then the education team. You Think Pos is an easy thing to understand, but education of our know how to use a cloud based system and how to take advantage of all the you know, all the various attributes of the system is something that we have to be created and put a lot of attention on. So that is a team that now reports through me's because it's pretty strategic. And then the last one is the experienced team. I'm a big believer in MPs and like I especially in an industry like the restaurant industry where the restaurant owners are to tight knit community. We're a very low company. They talk, you know, to each other all the time. They're opening new restaurants and they're recommending...

...products of their friends, and so having someone focused on customer experience and improving the MPs and having a small team do that was is, I think, pretty critical of building a company that's going to scale. So the customer experienced team, how are they different than, I guess, the Account Management Team there. They don't own account so they don't have, you know, a portfolio of accounts that are are there's they look across every department, not just in my own department, but they look across product and fine and and marketing and sales and every department and look at are the ways that we can improve the customer experience? are other ways that we can essentially that the the key metric for them is our mpsfour. So maybe it's the sales to serve US has handoffs my knees improvement, or maybe it's how we sat expected or maybe it's how quickly we are I'm a piece of hardware you know, the woman who leads that team talks about often talks about the makers in the breakers. There's there's certain moments. There's a book I recently read called the power of moments, which I think is great, and we use some of the material in that to think about how moments in a customer life cycle can really make or break the experience. And sometimes it's like the smallest moment that can make the biggest difference or the opposite, which is the smallest moment that can ruin a relationship. And you wouldn't think, oh, someone's going to turn or get angry over the small little moment, but for them that moment is critical. So identifying what those moments are and making sure that we're doing the best we can in the makers and the and that we're improving and not letting the things that could break a relationship or break, you know, trust with our customers that those things aren't existing and they aren't getting in the way business results. That's really interesting. And so the sale happens, the handoff is to essentially, is it? Is it an onboarding team? Yeah, essentially, and it's a multi step process. When you if you're a restaurant you. Your Pos system is your heart and soul. I mean you're taking all your orders through that. It's you know, has all your menu, you're running out your entire business, all your you know, your cashion, your credit card transactions are going through. It's a complex implementation but yeah, essentially it goes to our services team, who is responsible for the onboarding, the installation, deployment and training. That's incredible. So, you know, I'm curious. You have built your career previously to toast, being responsible for new business generation and formally being designated, you know, the head of the sales function and I know that you've run success in the past, clearly, but walk us through you know the your thought process when you're thinking about your next step in your career and how you decided to take this role with toast and why? You know what the pluses and is were specifically focusing and designating a customer success. That's it's a great question. In a bit of a journey and I think it's I'm not going to go the Labor with my whole background, but I will say that I kind of even got into sales in a bit of an unusual way to begin with. My early pre even being in software sales background was all. It was in operations and then I moved into I kind of partly that into sales operations and then I partly that into running sales. And for a long time in my career I was looking at sales from a very operations way like. So I was looking. I ran channel sales at a company for five years because channel is an efficient way to go to market. I ran inside sales for a number of years because inside is an efficient way to go to market. I joined digital otion and was responsible for sales there, and that's a product led model and again another efficient way to go to market. So I spent at this trend of looking for, you know, what's what are the most efficient ways of going to market, because my operations background, and one of the things that I realized, and it was that influentive, that it really struck me, was that in its aspiration, especially in Sass, and how much stass is taken off in the last...

...ten years, right, that we have this fascination and aspiration with efficiency of our go to market model and but we were often doing it at the expense of the customer experience, right, and at the expense of MPs or happy customers. And it's only been recently when you've had these like superviral products and the product led models, you know, like slack or digitalution or others, that have started to you know, get back to okay, your our goal is to, you know, create raving fans, you know, as a business. But I think that got lost in sort of the early days assass and what I noticed is that the more your focus on efficiency, the more we were seeing bad customer experience and that was starting to show up in churn. And then, you know, you five years ago. You know, you look at any NBC and what people were writing about and it was all about, you know, your funnel and your cat to LTV and how do you make sure you're looking at your LTV and how does your turn play into that, etc. And then the customer success was been born right as a function not only to you know, to take customers live or to on board them or to make them successful, but you know, frankly a lot of the reasons why I was created was turn prevention and, you know, because company started having these leaky buckets and and it just sort of dawned on me that, like, well, have we fund the puns in too far and, you know, is there a way that we can have both highly efficient go to market model and, I you know, have happy customers? I started to get more and more fascinated with how do you have both and how do you generate happy customers? And, like I said, influid of sort of kick this this off for me because that we were in the business of creating advocate programs, you know, which is all about leveraging your customers to help scale your business. You can't do that unless you have advocates. So that led me to think, well, maybe, you know, a blend of customer success and and sales is is really the right thing, and we can talk more about my thinking on where the industry overall is headed. Toast. I've been talking to tooth for a while. These are ex colleagues from INDECCA, so I've known what they've been up to and one day the you know, suppose a friend of mine called me and said, I have a crazy idea. You know, we'd love to bring you in to toast the go to market model and that the sales leadership is amazing here, like, but how about running customer success? And it was for me it was the right time because I was starting to get really intrigued by this notion of kind of can you have your cake and eat it too, and as a sales leader who was pretty obsessed with trying to figure out I have a great customer experience already, kind of seemed like a no brainer. So I jumped full blown into the post sales side of the world and it's been the last six months. Well, I still miss there's some things up sales I miss absolutely. So I'm not necessarily saying that this is forever for me, but right now, what do you what do you think the biggest differences are? So you know now that again and digital ocean. I mean think almost all of the roles I've had recently I am running both, and I'm sure there's benefits and disadvantages. Now, as somebody that is just focused on obviously you're focused on the entire customer experience, but you're specifically focused on the post sale moment, to use your word. Yeah, what are the biggest differences? A cost center, not a revenue center right now. Quite so, like it's a pretty big difference, and I as an executive, I've never been as focused on margins and efficiency and other things, as I am right now, because sales honestly kind of can get away sometimes with it, you know, not being as efficient as as you need to be, as long as you're hitting your number. Sometimes boards and CEO's can and CEFO is concern a little bit of a blind eye. So I've one that's really big. Does that mean that you're not obviously we don't need to know anything numerical details, but that, for example, your plan, your personal plan, is focused on margin or it's a KPI of the business. How does margin make its way into sort of your operating dashboard? Yeah, so, I mean I one of the things I measured on its margin. So I'm I am measured on revenue, because we are responsible for taking our customers lives and so that is a revenue number. So I have four metrics and I'm measured on I'm measured on revenue margin and customer MPs and employee MPs. So those are the thing...

...as I care about and the interesting that I think the tricky part is moving employee MPs out for a second, because every executive should own employee MPs. But what I find challenging about being than the customer success. That, especially when I also have a revenue target, is the balance of the three. Is the balance of, you know, keep a high MPs and be efficient and drive revenue, and it's hard to find the right balance. It's really easy to keep a high MPs and have crappy margins right and just grow a lot of bodies at a problem mine right, or it's easy to get revenue targets and not your margin targets, you know, or hit revenue targets and not your MPs targets. But finding that right balance between how much effort you put into MPs efforts and how much effort you put into your margins and your efficiency and how much effort you put into revenue. We all were historically my world while, yeah, as an executive I had to watch cost and I had budgets and all those kind of thing, but really, at the end of the day, if you're a sales leader, it's revenue, revenue, revenue, and everything else is sort of third or fourth were it is absolutely not that. Here it is a very tight rope that I'm balancing those three in virtually equal which is new for me. It's just kind of flexing skills in being watching efficiency and and margin and and PS more. Walk US through. I don't know if there's a specific example because I guess I think if you have the wrong product or if you have a product that's not ready to scale, and then none of those things are possible. And I would think, conversely, there's a balancing act at the stage that you guys are at. But walk us through some of the tradeoff state that you think about. Is it maybe, for example, how hard to enforce an auto renewal clause in you give us some examples? Yeah, sure so. I mean it can be something like what part of the customer journey do you automy and what part do you have white glove treatment? Right when you're selling to SMB, and especially in a hospitality industry, which is what we're telling into, there's a high expectation of white glove treatment because that's how they treat their with a white glove treatment. We can't necessarily afford to be as white glove with every single customer as we would, you know, ultimately like to, which would give us, you know, mindboggling and PS scores. Right. So we have to make decisions about what part of the customer journey. Are we going to give white glove treatment and what part of the customer journey are we not going to get white glove treatment and we're going to ask people to do self service or other things? Right. What are some examples? There? Will Give us. One example would be, you know, when, like the the actual transition from one pos system to another, because it's all a financial heart and soul of a restaurant. That is a those that first day, that first week, when someone goes live that process of relearning a system, especially if you're transitioning off of a legacy, which many of our customers are, that really does require Yo and like loove, you know, treatment. But you know, you call it, you know, a week down the road, when they need to order a new printer and it, do we really we don't need to have a yeah, a human being show up and, you know, hand deliver a printer. We could probably have them go online or to their printer get a shipped, never talk to a human being. Yeah, that's a decision right. And the other we had to make that says, all right, we're going to do the installations live and we're going to have people on site, but you know, after the initial installation we're going to use self service in automation to support, you know, some of the transactional needs of our customers. Some people don't want to do the onboarding. As an example, many kinds of many SASS companies do on boarding virtual and while we will, we will and do for certain classic customers that don't need the on premise, you know, live in person support, we don't believe that that for our business. We're willing to spend the money there. So those are the some of the kind of decisions that I have to think through is where do we want to spend our money? What value were...

...going to get out of it? What's the balance of how much is it going to cost US versus how much we're going to achieve in either an MPs or revenue, you know benefit. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. You know, you've had the benefit of working at very small companies. You're now at what I would probably consider a medium size large company and I think one of the things some people might be thinking as they're hearing about all the different functions and roles within just a customer success organization is how do you know when to start building those teams, given that you've seen the full spectrum of scaling size, from probably preproduct market fit all the way to where you're at now. What are your strategies or how do you think about building those teams and when to build those teams and how you know it's the right time? Yeah, it's a good question. Someone depends on your model. Whether you're, you know, going to do a fremium or free trial or product led, you know, self service, or where there it's an enterprise solution that requires sort of super high touch go to market. So my answer would depends, to paste on what Your Business Model is. But in general, even despite the business model nuances, which would lead mean to one direction or another, is I think we invest in customers success too late. I actually was just listening this morning to read Hoffman has his master's a scale podcast, and it was this particular one was about the importance of early on the important Zoe customers who love you and not, you know, just like you, and how you can create viral effects and and network effects by just maniacally being focused on your, you know, ten customers and making sure that they know they absolutely love you, and then their next hundred customers and then, obviously the power of advocacy. They'll bring to you the next hundred, the next hundred and next hundred and so forth. I think that customers that companies. Even if you're super enterprise and you have a really high, I touch, go to market model, if you don't have somebody who is whose goal is stir this customer gets you unbelievable value from the product, in the service and will be a raving fan, then you're absolutely missing an opportunity and to ten s your business with a significantly less investment the good. There was a gave a story in the podcast about the bakery in New York who sells, you know, the pronuts, and like how he didn't put any effort into he didn't market it, he didn't do any publicity stunts, he didn't do anything. He just had a out the door every day of hundreds and hundreds of people waiting to try a crownut and then this created a phenomenal over, you know, of people copying his pronus, etc. Just because of word of mouth and you know, a couple happy customers of the very beginning and then the way he continued to treat his customers as they were waiting outside in the line and the cold, delivering them hot chocolate, etc. So I think it's early, like really early. The more product led you are, the more self service. Then it's even potentially before sales and obviously the more kind of high touch your sales model is. And maybe at the same time you're such a big proponent of MPs. Obviously everybody wants, you know, a seventy or eighty or ninety. How do you you know, for you what sort of green, yellow red in terms of you know, hey, things are going well, like we feel like we're still in good scaling mode. You know, the customers are still delighted. Versus, actually, we're starting to see some warning signs and maybe we need to go back and rethink or go to mark a strategy. Versus, Hey, this is not the time to be investing in go to market. It looks like customers really don't like what we're doing. Are there numbers? Are Proxies that you use to help inform those decisions? Their MPs standards that are across all industries of what's good, what's great, what's excellent, but the nuances would in an industry are so different that it's really hard if you if you look at the airline industry as an example, right, you know the in the airline industry at thirty it may be phenomenal. Right. So you do have to compare yourself to...

...your industry. That's one thing. I mean in general, the kind of rough roll of film is. Anything below zero is not good. You know, zero to thirty is, you know, thirty two to fifty is good, as you know, doing pretty good, and you know like above seventy is amazing, right, and sort of best in class. You know, you're talking Nordstrom and Disney. You know, kind of best in class. But you do have to look at your industry. But I think more important than a number because, listen, that the IBE. It's just one number. You can overemphasize any one number that you know you're that you're looking at. I think it's more important than the number. That is the context. I don't like to get fixated on what number we are and how much it's gone up or down. And we do do MPs every month, so we are do look at it and we care about it, but I want the context. So the to me, it's the comments that you know are put in or it's the feedback that we get when we do our post survey follow up and we follow up with both of the tractors and the promoters. And you know it if we don't get any kind of comments and we listen and we learn about what's causing them to be a tractor or a promoter and then we make, you know, just strategic decisions based off of that. So I don't really try to get fixated on this score. Try to get fixated on the commentary and then also I correlate. You know that the MPs day there was other data, like what is our support ticket data telling us and what you know, what are the anecdotal things we're hearing from sales? And we have an advocacy program here at towes and what's that telling us? Me Can't look at one thing in general to get a good pulsive where you are. But in general, if we feel like overall we're starting to hear both anecdotal negativity and or there's a know a score is decreasing, then we quickly identify what we believe is the root cause and put project plans together to improve those areas of the customer experience and then, you know, correlate we see any improvement, and that could be tickets on a certain tough biic topic or it could be an mpscre or something else. I like your point about not focusing on on one particular number. So I guess you mentioned earlier what your kpis are. But if you're thinking about like an operating dashboard to provide you that pulse on overall health of the post the business, do you look at both unit retention and sort of, I guess, net revenue retention, including up cells? Do you look at all of it? You Look at MPs? What are all the things that you're looking at? And I guess the other thing that I think is helpful to hear from you is what's a leading indicator from your perspective and a lagging indicator, because I think a lot of times people get fixated on things that are so late in the life cycle of the the face that they're investigating it's not really as useful. Revenue is the least useful thing often times to look at from the new new business perspective and churn is often the least useful thing because it's a thing that happens at the end. So walk us through sort of your operating dashboard. Yeah, no problem. So it's because of the vary nature of the different departments that I run. It's there's very few things that are across all departments. The things that are across all departments are churn. Like everybody can have an has the ability to influence churn positively, because there's a lot of folks out there that are not measuring churn the right way. So how do you guys measure it? Just just so that everybody knows the exact calculation. So the exact calculation is we do generally do revenue churn, but we also can do unit churn. Right the kind of depends on your business whether you want to do one or both. I encourage people to do both revenue churn and unit churn. It's the amount of revenue or units that have left the business that particular period over the total amount of revenue or units that you have from in the company. Will slice and dice it by turn reason. You know, as you can imagine, in the SNBA world we have and in restaurant industry we have a bunch of custod restaurants such as good. They go out of business. So we look at out of business churn versus non out of business churn, competitive churn, you know. So that we just we look at a turn in different ways. What the most important thing about turn is? Obviously,...

...the number is important and how you measure it's important, but why it's happening is the most important. And so if you can have multiple categories, that's going to help you get a better indication of what's causing the churns you can fix. Yeah, so I interrupted you before. So that's turn. What else are you looking at? Obviously MPs and PS to look across all of it. On the revenue side, we look at live revenue, which is our booked revenue or, sorry, our build post installation. We also look at up self revenue, which separate. So we have a separate number for live and a separate number for up cel. And then, obviously, turn is another revenue impacting number. And then on the sort of efficiency side, we look at margin cost, a good sold, and then I have quality metrics that I look at, and so that is things like, you know, number of tickets after ago live, you know number of tickets overall by customer, because it can just indicate, you know, the quality of the the installation or the goalife process. So those are the areas in general. And then, yeah, there's lots of support metrics. Might first call resolution and, you know, time to answer a call and sea sat and other things. But the high level ones are the ones I mentioned earlier. It's the red the ones that are tied to revenue, of the ones that are tied to cost, the ones that are tied to MPs and quality. Was it hard? You mentioned that when you got to toast. I guess. I don't know if it's the success team or specifically the account management team, but was, in your words, reactive? Was it difficult to shift the culture to a more proactive stance and maybe even, you know, if you're focusing on up cells two, more of what might be called a sales orientation, when maybe some of the folks that join the team were explicitly joining a success organization because they didn't want to be in sales. Yes, the leading crested progress of and it is. Yeah, it's been tricky and I think so that that's that's actually something that's going on, you know, at a macro level. To write. Remember what I said before, right. So the customer success was created, you know, out of Sass, because the reality is you can lose your customers in with Sass when you're on a monthlier, portally or annual subscription, you can lose your customer diss easily as you acquire actually more than you acquired your customer. Your kind of have to resell every day make sure the customers getting value, and so it was started that way, but it was started as a non revenue focused job. The very first customer success team I remember was sales force, and they it was all about best practices. You know, are you getting the most out of sales force like that was kind of the role that then you added on boarding on to that, you know, over time, and it over time you had a churn. So not churn like retention, essentially, like now now you have to on board them, you have to make sure that they're using the product and their best practices and you got to keep them. And then we added up sell, you know, over time on that and overall customer success is turning more and more and more into a revenue team, especially for companies that, based on their market dynamics, are based on mother something, potentially have a high degree of churn. Right. So now you need your customer success team not to just on bore people and know the best practices, but you're constantly reselling. So you think about like if you lose a champion or you know something in the dynamics of your customer changes, you're not just hey, how do you make sure they're using the reporting as well as they can, but you're maybe going back to that executive sponsor. We're reselling the entire value of why they're they are to begin with. So the skill set of the customer success person has absolutely gone overall in the industry and it's happening in the microcosm here at toast. But it's gone from, you know, a more reactive, you know, more touchy Feeley, you know, support, you know, or customer service, I should say, type person, to much more revenue focus type person. It's tricky to find and it's a tricky balance because if you're to revenue focus, then you know you're going to lose...

...trust with a customer and you're not going to be able to potentially keep, you know, could keep their business because I think you're going to you're so CODA focus best. But if you're not revenue focused at all, then you can be either wildly and efficient or give away the farm or just not be able to either say or or upset or get the the most value you can. I think some companies are dealing with this in a bunch of different ways. One of them is they are maybe creating an account management team that is revenue focused but some other part of the success or customer service organization that is not revenue focused. Yep and revenue and Sentiviz. And then I think at the enterprise level it's even more different, because sometimes you're just saying the salesperson that sold the deal maintains that relationship maybe into perpetuity, or at least for the first year. Have you seen those different models and do you have a preference and how do you think about that preference? I agree, I think the more what I've seen is definitely a bit of a convergence. And then, and I also would in use point of this out earlier, I definitely seen customer success in sales starting to be under the same leader, right. So, whether that individual contributors are different or not, I have seen more and more at the leadership level. I mean the cro title is kind of a fairly new title and often that's customer success and sales, and so I definitely seen at the leadership level, at the individual contributor level, it often depends on how product led you are, how enterprise versus smber or transactional you are. How much upsell is actually part. Some some businesses don't have any ability. Up Seals just so one and don't. Right. It's how much upsell do you you know, have what is a sticky as factor of your product? When those are all to make a difference in whether you need three people, one for new business, one for post business, quote unquote, sales and one for like relationship and on boarding, or whether you're going to need even just one person. Might some organizations are going to have one person if they're really transactional, more product led. This was a digital ocean. You didn't necessarily need to have a new business person and an on boarding person or relationship person and a post sales revenue person. We could actually blend those all into into one person. So I do think it very much depends on the on the business model. But what I am saying is that as more and more companies are becoming product led and then we're we are sorry to see those roles starting to consolidate down to potentially even one role. Yeah, I've seen that as well. Last question on the specific topic. So I'm curious, because you have so many different types of people reporting up to you, do you have a point of view on which rolls should have incentive comp and or variable comp and which should just be listen, this is your base salary, this is your job, or do all of them have some kind of variable component to them? And Perfect World I would love, I think, in a high growth startup, which, even though we're employeewise, we're beyond start up phase. We're still doubling revenue, so we're so super high growth. In a perfect world everybody has some kind of bonus structure. I I'm a big believer in like okay, ours and stretch goals and in scenting people to go, you know, above and beyond, you know, whatever it is that that may be their goals. I think, coming from a background of incentive comp I think that's a good motivator. I don't necessarily think everyone should have like a fifty complex salesperson, but I do like the kind of incentive program so that's like in a perfect world for the reality is some some companies can't do that and some roles don't require it. But I always try to find if I can't do it from a comp perspective, either because of legal, potly legal reasons, I do have a good percentage of non exempt employees, then I try to do another way right. And so I try to find, you know, it's not the same as cash necessarily, but whether it could be stock or bonuses or spot awards or prizes or recognition or something. But human beings in general are motivated by goals and by recognition, and so I think roll should have some kind of incentive programmed. I just...

...may not look and smell like commissions. I think that word that you've mentioned, recognition, is really the key to it. I think that it's at every level. It's not even at the junior level, but everybody wants some level of recognition for the good work that they do. Yeah, it doesn't have to be cash. You don't recognize people like you sell a deal. You get a hundred bucks. Right, it doesn't have to take cash. It can be, you know, an award. Awards are cheap, you know, like it's a piece of paper or a shout out you know, but it can have the same cycle logical benefit as a commission check pen. I know that. You know in sales were constantly thinking of multiple ways of recognizing people outside of just commissions, and I think that idea can be used across all departments, even if you can't commission your employees. Yeah, I agree, we've got a little bit of timelift. And one of the things I think a lot of people are wondering, at least I'm wondering. You're obviously an accomplished, an incredible revenue leader, both on the sales side and the success side. You're also, of course, a woman. What advice do you have or would you like to give to folks that are coming up through the ranks that are women, because we're all talking about diversity, you know, it's sometimes putting into practice seems more difficult, at least from the sales perspective, where, you know, trying to find great female leaders to promote and to be make part of the executive team is a conscious effort. And from your perspective, I'm sure you're facing all kinds of challenges, all kinds of unconscious bias every day. So what advice would you give to, you know, the twenty three year old, twenty four year old woman that's starting out her career in startups and how you managed it and what advice you would share with them. Yeah, so I would say I never really it didn't even dawn on me, honestly, like I would say into Bible became vp of sales, that it even dawned on me that I was not that. Obviously I knew I was a woman, but on hold me that there was like that. It would be something that even mattered. Right. You know, I M in my early days, I just focused on, you know, getting my job done, achieving you know, I got a high level of competency, seeking out, as you know, extra projects. I am looking for ways of adding value to the company. I just wanted to be a good employee really, and I don't have another I don't have a shy personality, and so I was always willing to talk about my opinions and my beliefs and share them and wanted to get involved in multiple ways and that, you know, around the organization so I can have more values. So my advice would be is is one speak up. Your Voice is valued. Everyone's voice is valuing frankly, my advice for a woman be the same as my advice for a man, but I is like your opinions valued. Speak Up. That's the first thing. The second one maybe a little more women, because I think women tend to beat themselves up more and tend to self doubt more than men do. Right, but like, trust yourself, like you know, trust your instinct, don't doubt yourself. You'll make mistakes, you know, but learn from them versus the having the mistake prevent you from even failing again in the future. You know, I think that's pretty important. And then, honestly, don't play the woman card and don't really emphasize the woman thing, because someone asked me once the question, like in an interview with said, how is it different being a female executive? And I was like, it's not like I have goals, you have goals. Right, I want to achieve my goals. You want to achieve your goals with certain things we're expected to do as a leader. You know, manager employees, you know, provide a great you know work environment, you know achieve business. This goals. At the end of the day, it's the same. And so I tried if if you put too much emphasis on the differences, I think it's going to actually do you a disservice and just focus on the things that are the same. I think that's good advice. Last few questions so we can pay it forward a little bit. Tell us some of your mentors, some of your influences, maybe some of the books that had a big impact on you, some of the podcasts you're listening to. If we want to keep following the bread crumb trail of the things that created and the influences that created El Scala, what are those things and who are those people? Sure? So let's say God books. I have a like an hour commute every day, so I'm now doing all my books audio, so...

I get a lot of stuff read that way. I mentioned the power of moments. That's a recent one. I just finished fan of radical candor and can Scott's work. There said. I just finished that and I just finished work rules love extreme ownership. That was one of my favorite books. I just think there's so much in the idea of like the especially in the startup world right, truly owning the power of one just read that too, or not just but that was recently on my on my list. So those are probably the ones that read in the last four or five months that I that stood out to me. The podcast. So I kind of flip flop with with between podcasts and audio books on my commutes and sometimes I want to do like my list podcast. Is His name, condever? Noah, from daily show, the Atli show. Yeah, so like sometimes you just want the two out a little bit. From business books, I'm right now that I like the serial style mystery, you know, kind of real kind of crime story. So I'm doing Atlanta Monster Right now, which is another one of those serial type podcast. But on the business side, Tim Ferris seeking wisdom, the radical candor that think Kim Scott Master's scale. Read Hoffman. Read Hoffman One, and then I also look do the a z the and resent Horowitz Past. I think I have a pretty good one. So those are some of the business ones. Great and then any mentors, any great people and start up land that we should be thinking about a following. I mean I follow like the typical ones. You know, when I first became a VPA sales I actually asked brind and Cassidy to be my mentor. He's been a great mentor to me and my early days of running sales. You know, I follow the sort of typical people in the influencer category and the VC world, like you're your Jason Lincoln's or your David Scox in the customer successful Lincoln Murphy Nick made a so kind of the WHO's who, like nobody that you haven't heard before. And then, obviously, in terms of like women, you know Sheryl Samberg and I absolutely look up to a lot of the strong women leaders that are making, you know, having a voice. I personally, from mental perspective, I like to have dozens of mentors. That serves like a slightly different purpose. My you know, like I have really close friend who's a female CEO, and so when it comes to like female leadership, and you know, how is that my next step? She's the person I go to when it comes to sales stuff. All my call Brendan when it you know, when it's a I like having a dozen people I can go do for different things. I think that's great advice. Emmanuel, thank you so much for joining us today. If folks want to reach out to you, are you open to that, and what's your preferred channel? Sure, so, preferred would either be twitter or linkedin and can connect with me on Linkedin and twitter is at La Scala, l e. s Kaa awesome thank you so much for participating. We will see you in the future and and I'll be in touched you and thanks again. Thanks Sam. This is SAM's corner. Great interview with Emmanuel Scala, vp of success at toast. Emmanuel really sheds a lot of light on the scale and complexity of a fully scaled customer success organization when you've got eight hundred and fifty people in the company. One of the other things that she pointed out, just for frame of Reference, when you're evaluating MPs, so anything belows zero, probably think about whether or not you should be scaling at all, consider not investing in any further go to market. If your MPs is below zero, zero to thirty, that's the yellow. Range. North of thirty maybe up to fifty or sixty, that's the green, and then bright green is north of fifty or sixty. Of You all the way up to seve me. So when you're thinking about measuring net promoter score, the other thing that Manuel mentioned. She does it every month and she's looking at the comments, not just the score. She's tracking trendline in the score, but also looking specifically at the comments. Final thought, she's following up with every single person that leaves the...

...comment, positive or negative. So there's been some debate in the past whether that's appropriate. Emmanuel is saying do it regardless of positive or negative score. This has been Sam's corner. Thanks so much for listening. To check out the show notes, see upcoming guests and play more episodes from our incredible lineup of sales leaders, visit sales hackercom podcast. You can also find the sales hacking podcast on itunes or Google play. If you enjoyed this episode, please give us a share on Linkedin, twitter or any other social media platform. And finally, special thanks again to this month's sponsor, at node seemore at INFO dotnode DOT IO. Forward sales hacker. Finally, if you want to get in touch with me, find me on twitter at Sam f Jacobs or on Linkedin at linkedincomas in slash Sam f Jacobs. I'll see you next time.

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