The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 2 years ago

41. Helping Marketo IPO, Achieve Hyper Scale, and Take Those Lessons to the Next Great Company with Bill Binch, CRO of Pendo

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This week on the Sales Hacker podcast, we talk to Bill Binch, Chief Revenue Officer for Pendo and a former sales executive at Marketo who, over close to 10 years, helped guide the company through multiple phases of growth including both an IPO and an acquisition. Bill is the consummate commercial leader, sales manager, and team player and walks us through his career insights.

One two one twe three ohe everybody,it's Sam Jacobs- and this is the sales hacker podcast. We've got a fantasticshow for you. Today. We've got bill, binch the chief revenue officer ofPendo, one of the fastest growing businesses in the United States.Perhaps the world bill is an acknowledged commercial, great andleader He's been over ten years or close to ten years at Marcetto,starting, I think he may have been. He may have been one of the earliestsalespeople there, but rows up the ranks and eventually became evp worldwride sales. He helped launch in Japan. He help blaunch in Agsia, spacificregion and and obviously saw Marcuetto through a bunch of liquidity events,including going public and then ultimately the acquisition he started.His early career people, soft he's really a fantastic leader, and it'sreally clear why people love working for him. So we're excited about thatinterview now before we dive into it. As always, we have to thank oursponsors. The first is chorus: Dot, AI, the leading conversation, intelligenceplatform for high gros sales teams, chorus records, transcribes andanalyzes business conversations in real time to co trips. On how to become topperformers with chorus, morrups mate quota, new hires ramp, faster leadersbecome better coaches and everyone in the organization can collaborate overthe actual voice of the customer. It is a fantastic tool. I've used it beforeI'm a huge fan check out coruse tot ai forward, slash sales tacker to see whatthey're up to so that's CORUs dot, ai forwarks last sales hacker. Our secondsponsor, as you know, is outreached. They are the leading sales engagementplatform, outreach support sales reps by enabling them to humanizecommunications at scale from automating. The Sol sucking anual work that eats upselling time to providing action, oriented tips on what communicationsare working best outreach as your back now coming up in March, outreachesrunning unleash two thousand and nineteen the sales engagementconference. This is going to be the definitive new sales conference in theworld. It'll take place March, ten through Twelveh in San Diego. So ifyou're on the East Coast and you've got some March snowstorm that comes uponyou and you thought it was going to start getting warmer. Let's all go toSan Diego. Instead, it's better there, it's dry, it's warm! It's sunny, it'sbeautiful! All kinds of things are legal there that aren't legal. In otherplaces, the listeners of the pod get a hundred dollars off simply forenderingthe code, Sh pot, so listeners to the pod you get a hundred dollars off thecode is sh pod, hop over to unleash dot outreached on Io and use the code shpod to save a hundred dollars off your ticket, I'm going to be there eithermoderating a panel or speaking so youll get to meet me in person, which is mostpeople's highlight of their life, if not of the entire universe just kidding,but I will be there and and we'd love to see you there so again that cot issh pod. Finally, I went through a lot of my linkedin requests and there'sjust so many great people out there, so that are listening and sharing, and Iwant to thank you here, some of the folks Kyle royball at Sindoso. Thankyou. Kyle Justin, CARDILO VPF sales in Chicago Justin. We're going to belaunching the revenue collective in Chicago in two THOUSAD and nineteen. Somake sure you get involved Ed Spencer at Sales Force, Austin, Calan or Colin.I hope that I pronounced to write at bamboo GRAT HR platform. Annabetrakcampaign monitor she's, listening all the way from Sydney, Australia DennisBrook Holzer from Germany, Jason English from at Blewolf Andrew Wallworking at facebook, Darrennoble quantum workplace, Bryan, tate, Alane,morer WHO's, incorporating some of the stuff from Munya that we had onprevious episodes. Sean Buxton Matthew done from Carbon Black, hopefullymatthew heard the amiapple yard episode last week, Jerry Oni, who just messagedmean linkdin literally three seconds ago. All of you folks, thank you somuch for listening, and this is this- is going to be a great show. So withoutfurther do let's dive in and and listen to this interview with Bill Bench, everybody, it is Sam Jacobs and you arelistening to the Sales Hacker podcast welcome to two thousand and nineteen.We are in the meat of two thousand NN nineteen right now. If I have mycalendar program correctly and today, we're incredibly excited to have billbinch, who is the chief Revenue Officer at Pendo? PENDO is wone O we're goingto learn more about the company, but one of the fastest growing businessesand one of the fastest sgring startups. To my knowledge, in the US and perhapsin the world and bill, has a really long and incredibly impressivebackground and history working at some of the most pivotal technologycompanies and high growth companies that all of us know a lot about soreally quickly at Pendo bill oversees all revenue bearing aspects of thebusiness, including the sales customer success in professional services,organizations he's had sales leadership, experiences at Oracle, people, soft andBEA systems, and then back in two thousand and eight he joined a littlecompany called Barquetto and he helped them grow from zero in revenue to overtwo hundred and fifty million over nearly a decade. He helped lead themarketing automation giant from a small...

...bunch of CX startup to a public companyto going private with its one point. Eight billion dollar sale to VistaEquity Partners in two thousand and sixteen his sales operation grew fromtargeting bea Ta Bee to be deceived from SSAN BEDEMAN enterprise and fromdomestic to global. With customers and offices all over the world, mostrecently bench managed Marcuetto's Agian Pacific team based in Sydney,Australia, which is one of my favorite cities and he's an adviser if you're onhis linkedon profile, you see that bill is an adviser to a number of differenthigh growth companies. So we are super excited to have you bill. Welcome tothe show. Thanks am I'm ready to get O thosandy and nineteen kicked off withyou. So thanks for having me Joi, this is a time travel experience,because we're recording this with a few days left in two thousand and eighteen,but people will be listening in two thousand and nineteen. So what we liketo do just really quickly buill, is to get what we call. I read your bio, butwe like to know a little bit of what we might call your baseball cartspecifically around your current company and give you an opportunity topitch that business to the listeners a little bit so your cro at Pendo. Whatis Pendo tell us a little bit about what the company does, who they are:Yeah, Pandos in what we call the product, analytic space, which wereally define as being able to measure the use, your behavior of what you'reuser doing inside your APP. So that's what we call insights and then we allowyou to action that. So we allow you to help guide that USOUR experience to bebetter so that your customers end up loving what you do the best real world,or you know common person, language analogy that I could give you Sam, isthink about what a fit bit does for the body right. It tells you how many stepsyou've walked. How many stairs you've gone up? What your calories are, whatyour sleeping habits and it allows you to control your calories, your intake.It allows you to drive your body to be better right. That's what Pendo is foran application is what fit bit is to the body understood and it' feels likeit's probably like a fast growing category and an a competitive space,roughly obviously private companies, confidential information and all that,but roughly how big is Pendo from an Arr perspective, so we're all overthirty million. We re about two hundred and fifty m employees right now and youyou used a really operative word there about growing space and that's one fthethings that was really exciting and appealing to me is you reference, myMarquetto experience when, when I joined Marquetto there were no Gartenerquadrants for Markin animation. There were no companies like Oracle and salesfor us who today, Longside Adobe, are the biggest vendors in that, and I sawvery similar type of growth on the horizon. With Pendo is. I saw t thiswas a space that had well funded organizations out there that were goingand trying to define and create the category for what we are. So I thinkthat'll be a good topic for us to cover off today, and the the category wouldbe product analytics. Is that accurate, my defining appoy, yeah product,panalytics or useur experience analytic something along those lines that, likeI said, there's there's there's no, you know crm bender, Quadran or marketaunimation platform, category name that's been created and had everybodykind of circle around yet, but product analytics is probably the best the bestand most common eis one well yeah, and you know if there, if there isn't acategory et it's up to, if tendo can define it, there are multiples ofenterprise value that go to the person that coins, the name, which issomething I read about in this book played bigger. So the totalorganization is two hundred how many people are in the Revenue Organization,actually o over Tur, a D fifty. You know I joined back in January here oftwo thousand and eighteen, and there was about a hundred and thirty hundredforty folks and today we're nearing two n sixty. So we've almost two sixty jestin the revenue work, no two sixty entire company and about a hundred andtwenty comprise the sales customer success and pro services teams got itand is it would you describe? Is there a sort of a deal size you know? Is itSMB MIT market enterpriseis there specific slice of the universe thatyou're going after from from a customer size perspective? We cover small mediumin large. The heritage of the company definitely followed a page out of theplaybook that I think sales force created, and then you know Marquettoamong many other companies followed and started with the SNDB. Go, getexperience go get transactions done with small customers. Show that you canthat your marketing message works, that your sales team can execute that yourcustomer success can get them, live and launching and give that feedback to thePROC team to continue innovating and so for the last couple of years, Pendo hasbuilt a good reputation with about seven hundred customers in the in thesmall medium segment and are making the that March upwards indto the right andmoving into the strategic team. So, while I've been here this year, we'vegot druple the size of our team that that calls on on enterprise andstrategic accounts how's that going, I...

...guess the side. The head count isgrowing is. Are you seeing pipeline growth commensorat with the investmentsyou're making and in new personnel yeah? It's been really successful. You knowwe have a vice president of Fales engineering here named Brian Mezz andhe came from Zandaskan Zendus Eaus, another one of these companies that hasgone through this transition of starting small and going into bigger,more enterprising companies, and he called something out as our head ofsales engineer, he's kind of got a unique perch to see this is he saidBill. I started last December cember of seventeen and he said you know thebiggest difference between than and now is. I said what he said: the amount ofsecurity and info sack and questionnaires that were going throughright now during the sales cycle- and I said, what's your read on that he goesthe difference of logos of who were calling on y. You know it used to bethe you know: th the Yo, w the venture, fundit start ups, and now it's the youknow it's the pro level software companies. You know that we're talkingabout now, so this here's been really successful in that March upwards. LikeI said, we caught druple the team this year. We won't do it. We won't growthat much next year on that team, but we've just gained a lot of confidencethis year that our product is scalable, the functionality set is applicable andthat we can create a very compelling value case for those big companies isyour vpof sales enginering the person that manages what we would call likethe RFP Infosec database. You know where you, you know you're getting likethe two hundred questions in a spreadsheet and you go back to yourlibrary to make sure you're answering the same way you answered, for you knowfor the other ones yeah he is, I mean you know so: Pendo our product beingproduct analytics, we oftentime, sell to the product management function, theuser experience function, the customer success function and those tend to bepeople that buy or break a little bit more. On the you know, the technical by,and so almost everyone in addition to dammos wants to do a trial. So oursales engineering function Yearis, certainly the group that doesrequirements gathering along with the sales wrap they participate in doingthe demos, though, with like I said, our buyer being fairly technical. Mostof our sales reps are all certified to do their own demos, but you know forthe juicyer ones the SES paroshoot in on they do the RPS and then they alsomanage any type of proof of technology process. Yeah pocs. This is a highlytactical question, but that's why people come to the saleshacker podcast.Do you charge for your pocs? Or is it kind of case by case? No? No, we don't.Like said you know, our founders are all former product people and you knowIh ta tune into this coming out of the last ten years of being in marketingsoftware, that marking softwar. When we started and it wasn't a definedcategory, everybody asked for a trial you're, a small company. The space is alittle bit unknown. You know they don't have budget for this, so they're GOINNAhave to go ask for incremental, so you need to go, prove it and then, once pen,I'm sorry Marqetto got to about w thousand customers and we grew ourconfidence. The space was shaping and forming up. We probably got a littlebolder and started offering trials left often and by the time I left. It wasvery infrequent that we were doing a trial or proof of technology pendoagain starting over and having a bunch of founders that came from the PROXsbace they like to get hands on they like to feel the product, and so youknow there's a number of ways you can gauge with Pendo. We have playgroundthat you can use. We have a free trial that use selfservicee and you candownload that and then there's a more guided trial that we can give you afull version of the product but typnically what we do during t thatphase Sam is instead of charging for it. What we do is we ask this question.Look if you're excited about doing a trial, it means that you're probablyinterested in potentially bringing this into your organization, becauseotherwise, why would you exert the time? Why would you spend your teamsresources to spend the next fifteen or thirty days, trialing some software? Solet's project out fifteen or thirty days from now and tell us what happensthen, what's different now or then versus now, and and we ask about whattheir process is, and we ask a question of that point: Do you have money forthis and a lot of people say no we're going to have to go, get money and wesay we'll tell you what that, while we're doing the trial, why don't wesinmetaneously help you build a business case to show the impact thatPendo will have, and so that's been really helpful for, like I said when itdoesn't matter what your category is, and Software Sam, if you're in a space,that's newer or fledgling, and you have people looking to buy, you probablyhave to help them, buy it right. Yeah H, yeah Ye, it's not like buying crat, Imean almost every soft from the company. Every company that has that's intechnology has a crm and it's a budgeted line item in their their spendyear after year. And so, if you make a change, you might be changing yourvendor, but it's at least something that already exists in a younger spacelike PROCC analytics. It may not exist, so we have to help our Birus by alittle bit, and I think I think that's...

...candidly, the case in in sort of themajority of software sales at this point, because there's so many newcategories that are being formed and that's, I guess one reason why somepeople say that Bant is no longer like I relevant qualifying mechanism orcriteria because a lot of people don't have they don't have they don't ever havebudget for these new things. They always have to kind of go, build abusiness case. A hundred percent I mean and I'd sayI've been along. I've been on that riff for a few years that realistically, ifyou do use a bant style criteria and your call qualification that reallywhat I care about is does someone have a need and I define a need as if theydon't do something, there's some consequence and that consequence tendsto have a time frame. So the ND in the t portion of band are the two thingsthat are valuable to me, but the budget, an authority will you know I mean,there's that saying out there, that buyers are liars. So you know the firstperson you're talking to may say that they're, the the decision maker whenthey're really not, and they might say that they have budget when they reallydon't yeah and and then I had Brent Adamson on from Gartner whowrote the Challenger books and he's also saying that on average it used tobe five point. Four, but now it's eight different people within an enterpriseneed to sign off before a software purchase is made. So the idea thatthere's one person that signs he contract is also probably a little outof date. Yeah I caught that when they went from when they came with the nextbook. I think it's the challenger customer. I saw that they'd hadexpansion of the five to the eight people and- and it's so true today Imean especially with gdpr coming in in the last year that you see that youknow like got it just didn't feel this way. But I'll say this: You know fiveten years ago it was easier to sell SAST software. It wasn't easy, I'm notgoing to get caught. You know and get quoted saying that, but but Gosh I kindof I wish we could go back in a way because today, just the info sack- andyou know like we just hired Atpendo, achief information security officer, wehave a data protection officer. We have a general council here and the amountof commercial work they do is impressive comparative to what itlooked like five years ago, yeah, no, I'm sort of like the rising cost ofdoing business so and obviously today, there's headlines about facebookselling, our personal emails to Netflix and and Google and Amazon. So there yougo. So, let's go back to the beginning andfigure out how you got here and learn some lessons along the way you came out.T are you from Arizona originally? Is that right or you just went to ArizonaState Yeah? I went to Wason state and then I really loved it and ended upback there about fifteen years after I graduated but grew up in Californiagrew up in northern cow right in the heart of the Silcon valley and socoming out. Did you always know that you wanted to be in sales? Was, I guess,Orca was your first job out of sale, it was at just you know they were hiringand it was you needed a job. Or did you have like a perspective on how youwanted your career to go? Yeah I mean my dad's been a tremendous influence onme and he, you know, started his career bout of college at IBM and had kind ofa classic. You know sales, a D marketing approaching HETP being a vicepresident oracle in the S and early S, and when I was graduating college harto say when I was in college, I'd come home for the Summers and actuallylanded some internships at Oracle at three of them, and these are kind offunny to talk about today, Sam, but my first one. My first summer was in whatthey called the manufacturing and distribution warehouse and wephysically used to ship software and to recognize revenue back in the day likeif it was jam, thirty, one or December thirty, one it had to ship that day.The sofware physically had to leave your warehouse. MEA, you had to have away bill for it to get recognized, so we would work furiously at the end ofmonths and quarters. So my first summer was shipping software and I learnedabout what quarter ends really meant for businesses. Second Summer I wentback and again this is just amazing to say, but we had a physical contractroom at Oracle where all of the physical master services agreements andorder forms Werstore it, because this is before imaging and having thingsonmine, and so, when someone's coming to do a new contract and they hade thereference at they'd come up to this room and we managed the inventory thereand then my third summer was in the good old famous mailroom I delieredmale, which was quite honestly it's exactly what they say that it was ablessing in disguise, because I got to meet from everybody from Larry Allisondown in that organization by delivering mail. So you just think about what Ijust said there one was a summer of shipping software. We don't do thatanymore. One was e summer of managing physical contracts. We don't do thatanymore. Another one was working in a maroom like you know, I'm sure theyhave a package department, but you know I mean how much direct mail happened.So I was pretty directed to give you a short answer. Early, my career by youknow my dad. I saw what he did I tuned...

...into it, and I obviously had an end. SoI took the in and worked it boracle and, like I said, working in the warehouseand working in the mailroom Gott me a lot of connections, and so by the timeI was graduating, I've met the people that R n a group called DMD Dreft,marking division, and this is the group that a lot of famous people have beenin, notably Tom Seabele. You know we're in that group and he went and found it.SEABOLL systems and Mark Pennyoff ran that group for a while. We all knowwhat he want to do. Did you work with Bennyof? They were the generation aheadof me, so benny off was at Oracle. While I wasthere so, but he was doing different things head, moved out of running theDrek sales and was doing more product things yeah. Well, that's I mean Ithink, for some of the young folks out there. They don't quite appreciate howOracle and sap and people soft these were like the pillars. These were thecompanies. Besides, maybe Hewlett Packard that really form the corefoundation of BTPN, a price sales for most technology businesses. They arelike the godfathers of the whole of the whole thing. Goling totally I mean I soI graduated and I started my career as an str and I quickly moved up to Bein asales wrap, and I did that for a couple of years and then I had a reallyinteresting fork in the road, and I think you and I ill probably explorethis, but I had the opportunity interview for being both a field wrapbecause back then you had inside and outside sales, and I was an insidesales. Wrapping Redwood shores had the chance interview to go to Chicago, be afield rep and then also I had a really influential manager there. Thatencouraged me to consider ou management- and you know twenty five years old,asous school three years, and I was thinking how many twenty five year oldsalesmanaged are there at orcl. There were't a lot, and so I went thatdirection got the GIG and did that for a couple years and worked for that samewoman and she encouraged me to apply for this director role in Boston andI'd never set foot in the state of Massachusetts before, but I went for itearned the job moved myself to Boston spent a few years there before wrappingup nearly a decade at oricle and making a move to people off. So one quickquestion: I didn't realize that they had SDRs back then so that's been athing for at least twenty five years. The title was direct ResponseRepresentative back then, but yeah we got on the phones and it was obviouslyless. You know there ere no tools like out reach or sales loft yeah ths is Hond, nine hundred n Niney three. So there was an internet, I guesssomewhere, but we didn't use it. It was mostly inbound phone calls and soyou're on the phone and classic like today. You started on Inboun typicallyand learned how to deliver the messaging and work with you know:Potential buyers and qualify them, and then he moved out to Albath wow thats.So what and why'd you go from orcal to people softwalk us through some of thebig transitions and then would love to also hear about. Obviously, you startedat Marchetto. So that's something that we want to hear a lot about: Yeah Yeah.So it's again it's a point in time story. So if you look at my onethousand nine hundred and ninety three to o one period at Oracle, it waspurely in transaction volume and velasy sales. It was all inside, focused orchannel focused and we were just startedg to do online and Websales atthat point. So it was all h, the Vilasi stuff, and so what I like to say, Samis those you know. Nine years at Orcor were like getting an MBA intransactional business, and I was really quite good at it. But at thatpoint and the models have changed a little bit since then. You know thechallenge I was facing and you know early twosands was whenever I went outand said: Hey. I have over a hundred people that work for me. I have over ahundred million dollar quota that I manage Dogo. This is great experience,great operational experience, but you haven't closed the elephant. Size deals.You haven't closed the twelve month, seven figure transactions, you know inyour history and you need that to grow. So I was like shoot. You know I getthat experience, and so I thought to myself: What's one of the most complexthengs to sell? And you know application? Software was one of thembecause it's Longsale Cyples your changing business practices when you'redoing them, and so I you know looked around, I found that people saw offjust from a cultural perspective, was a great company that it starte off asnature a company and was a merging as a true competitor in the Erp pace and andIdoan and went after that, and I got the role and I went from being a vicepresident with over a hundred people working for me to being a director withabout nine people. Working for me, and a lot of people always asked me likeJeez was out a step backwards and sure from a title perspective it was but,like I said, I was pursuing something specific, as I was trying to check abox of something that I hadn't done previously, and it was these big ticketdeals. So I spent the next three years at peoplesoff. Getting that experiencebeing a field level manager, but smaller team, but you know being in thetrenches rolling up my sleeves and helping drive. Those deals and I'd saythis: Sam Does I'mrize. It Oracle really taught me how to be a reallysaddy business man and people. Sa Of taught me how to sell Oh wow, and whydo you say that? Because you feel like...

...the the twelve month eighteen month,you know, million dollar deal is just a different level of sophistication interms of like how to how to push that deal through the organization. Yeah,certainly that, but also I mean again going back to Oracle. I was a year asan str two years as a sales rap, and then I was managing people and, as youknow, when you're manging Tallo sales, you're managing a lot of process and alot of system and a lot of repeatable cadence. And you know it's not likecustom deal because you're looking at rexler doing maybe five six seven tendeals a month. So it's not like you're camped out. You know in the lobby ofthese these companies right and so like I said, I learned how to really run abusiness and you know understood, t the basics of finance and money coming inand out and structure and hiring profiles and cop planning and thingslike that, but that's different than selling, and so I got to people softand you know thrust right in there. So Lov youll always ask like hey. You wentbackwards and toisaid yeah, but I advanced careerwise. So I toke that boxand then I went to a company called BEA people, softgut bought by Oracle and and after nine years at orcle. You knowI'd been around the the circus. Long enough, I decided I didn't want to goback, so I went to a county, go bea and I moved back to the West Coast and thatjob was really interesting because they had a unique model. You manage there,not just sales, you managed inside and outside sales. You managed the salesengineers, you didn't own, the professional services people, but theywere aligned directly to your region, and so I took over the northwest andRocky Mountain region and ran that for a couple years and a similar story- people I'm sorry bea-got bought by Oracle as well, sose a little bit of a run, and so at thatpoint I decide it was time to go, maybe explore and try working for a smallarcompany, and so let's hear about the Marquetto experience and let's I'mspecifically curious. So do you join Mircetto prerevenue. Is that right,yeah sort of they shipp the product in Marchof a Weit and I joined in May ofo eight. So I joined. May Twenty seventh and Iremember that because there are twenty seven customers that day and thosecustomers probably had you know an average sale price of Fifteenk. Sothere's maybe three hundred thousand acxr revenue, and so how did you I mean when you think abouta company? That's and I call that post revenue, it's a at a trade mark phraseO if you want to use it feel free, but which is like that stage where it's notquite zero, but it's just past Cero. But how did you first of all like did you worry thatyou were too much in terms of your? You know the teams that you've managed andthe processes and systems that you built that it was maybe too much forsuch an early stage company, and how did you get right with the risk awardprofile of a company that has you know twenty seven customers and is tinycompared to these bigns organizations? At this point you know you probablyhave a family. So how did you? How did you sort of like make that decision andcalibrate it in your own, mind, yeahis, a great top great question. I have kindof a two party answer. So, first of all, there's a stop between BEA and Morcetto.There is a small company called Avalyn that I spent fifteen months at and itwas ten yearold company that burned througha ton of venture cash. Wasn't doing a lot in revenues had burned throughFivev piece of sales in the last five years, part of me, but I had blinderson in a way and what I saw was number one, the chance to be a vice presidentsales, not just be a regional, vice presient, or something like that Sam,but to be the vice present sales and to work for the CEO, which there's a skillin learning how to work for a CEO, and so I saw that as vival and then numbertwo. This was a company that an old on Pram heavy solution and they werereinventing it in a hosting space. So I went there and it failed. It failed.You know it was the Mulligan of my career if you, if you want to go withthat term, but I caughl my year of learning and not a earning, because Ididn't make much much money at all. But I'll tell you this, and is the secondpart is Sam. Don't think I ever would have landed the Marquetto Gig. If Ihadn't done that, because Othrwise, I would have been like some midlevelmanager coming out of a big billion dollar company, and so you know I wasable to go get this company. It was not an a player by any stretch ofimagination, but I learned a lot from the CEO. I learned. You know how to bedynamic, how to not be so regimented which big billion dollar companiestrain you to be really really good. At and like I said, I got my firstexposure to sash and without those two elements, I'm not sure I would havebeen that attractive to to Marcetto, but with Marcetto I got in through, andthis is just a good life lesson about. You know a lot about who you know BruceCleveland had been the CMO at feebl and he had been an oracle prior of that andwe'd gotten acquainted, and he and I a flirted a couple times during myoracale career about me- coming over and working at seable with him and meanwe just never were able to make it...

...happen. But I think we had you knowkind of some mutual affinity for trying to find something and he had become theseries. A investor along with his partner, got named, dug pepper inMarcetto, and my time is perfect. I reached out to him and said I waslooking for something he said: Hey talk with these guys at Marcetto, and thatwas in o seven. While I was at Avalin and I met with the Marcetto foundersand I adored them, but Sam they didn't have a product and I believe inselfawareness. I believe that's one of the best traits that you know anybodyin sales for sure, but also leadership can have, and I knew that I wasn't apreproduct guy, I'm not a bus, Deve Guy, at least at that stage. In my careerthat wasn't my skill set, I needed a Procu to go, take the market, and so Imet with them. I like them, but I wasn't ready to make that risk to yourpoint. Powrid made a pretty positive impression on them, so we canof putanything on back burner and bout. A year later, CEO reach back to me andsaid: Hey Bill. We have a product we have about. Sixteen customers, we onmarket about a month month and a half I'd love to show it to you and I camein and I fell in love again with the team and film ove even more the productin the space and when you reflect back because you were there, you know fromtwenty seven customers and a couple hundred grand to well over two hundredand fifty million. Is that right, yeah? So? And I'm asking this because youknow so many vcs and so many kind of founder advisors are whispering intheir ears. Saying you know, is she the zero to ten head of sales and maybeshe's, not the ten? To thirty? Is He this ten to thirty, but not the thirtyto a hundred? How did you maintain your standing in your position, or were youlayered and laddered over the course of the seven years and eleven months, butyou liked it for the bigger opportunity of you know having equity in a companythat's ultimately acquired for one point: Eight billion is obviously worthmore than whatever the title is at the company Yeah, all the above. You know Igot in and was to had a sales and customer success, which was an army ofabout five people at the time because, like I said I was the seventeent personin and and I embarked upon, an amazing tenyuare journey of incredible highsand successes and the biggest business challenges I've ever faced, and youknow moments of heartbreak, and you know, despair and everything like that.But you know ultately what what I tuned into with them is. This was a team of aplayers that were building something to win. I'm not sure we all quite realizehow big the space would get, but we all knew that we were building to be theleader of the space of whatever it became and and that journey was amazing.You know fill the CEO, I say that other than my father he's the mostinfluential coach or manager or mentor that I've had, and you know any timeyou have a tenur relationship with anybody. You have highs and lows, andso yeah. There were three times during that decade that he brought in someoneabove me, and you know the first time it hurt like how you know had me reallyconsidered O. I want to be on the thing and that kind of went back to you, K,ow basics and just thought that Jesus team is built to win in this place isgoing somewhere, so I'm Goinna come back and do whatever job. I have reallyreally well and a year year and a half later that personal was out- and I waselevated backup- and you know that happened a couple times, but I tell youit's one of those thing, Sam, that you know Iran, sales and customer success.When we got a little bigger. We split customer success off, gave it someoneelse, and then you know that didn't work out for a while. So I got it backand then we carved this devi off of me and channels and that went away andthen it came back and then there was a time when we started developinginternational and it wasn't mine and then it was d. You know, then there asa time that actually went and moved overseas to run international and AsiaPack, and so you know I still get back like this. Did all those things feelgreat at the time? No was it an incredible learning experience that Ilook back on and wouldn't give up for anything at this point I wouldn't Iwouldn't, because even though it didn't feel great at the time, I look at allthe things I've done. I've run, SMB IVE run the enterprise of run. You know thedirector run, the indirect ov run the sales or ron the customer SuccessarFron, both O run domestic of run International. How many people can tellthat story? I mean that's just it's Amazin, it's an it's an amaz short andto do it going through, like you said from you, know, kind of a couplehundred thousand revenue to a couple hundred million to be in that that pace.I mean well say, is this all the people that were layered above me during thattime had stints there that were probably less than two years, and so Ithink most people kind of look and say you know the one you know kind ofcontinuous you know. Kind of trock was probably me inside of that organization.So I have a Treumat Mount of pride of teaming up with that crew and doingwhat we did. I think it's a it's just a huge lesson and it speaks volumes toyour humility and to your work ethic that you able to take those lumps andjust keep going and ultimately emerge. You know, on top of the heap aftereight years did, did you ever have like those tough confort when they'reslicing off pieces of your portfolio? Are they saying bill? You know you'remaking x, but you got to make XS twenty...

...percent because we're giving this jobto somebody else. Did you have those kinds of conversations, or at least wasyour kind of your economic security protected through all those ups anddowns yeah? Now we were they're pretty loyal to me on that there was never aneconomic thing from you know a WTWO or comp planperspective, because when you're growing I mean you gotta, remember this.You start off as ten person company you know I'll use a sports analogy. It'slike in baseball, like you know, when your spot compan, you pay leftright andcenter field right, but as you get bigger, you define what left right andCenterfield look like and you put people in them and you want to try andavoid collisions, and so you start doing thing. So it's to be expected. Imean very few people have the fortune of going from. You know basically zerorevenue to a couple hundred million and going through those stages back to yourquestion that you'd asked, but at the same time, if you do have that ability,you've got to expect that most people are not. You know, Larry Alison or youknow you brought facebook earlier with Mark Ura. They don't open up it withthe company and then just go with the company for the next couple of decadesor a few decades in the same efact rall only people evolved yeah. No, I meanhonestly for me personally, it's been a it's not a lesson. My my ego is notreally naturally positioned to when somebody says, listen, Sam Youre, greatsales leader, but somebody else should run marketing. I want to hold on to it,even though probably for the business, the best thing is to have the personthat is exceptional, an marketing running marketing and if they want toreport to the CEO they should be able to. So you know on that one one of the thingsthat I really learned at Marqetto you know and this's very divergent fromoracled Oracle. We used to have a saying that was control, what you cancontrol and how that kind of manifest itself is. There's another saying it'sinside of Oracle. Was You know people don't just stab you in the back herethey stab you in the front right like it was a tough environment, and so youprotected your back. You know you protected yourself. Information waspower, so you didn't share and that's like. If, if you look at like you readany management philosophy or these, you know books by Peter Drunker, or atleast you know, icredible management practitioners. Basically, that's likethe worst thing you can have happene whan it does it just absolutely killsproductivity and transparency and communication cross the company insideof Marcetto. It was very opposite n. You had- and this is a fair point Y,that you have to have some trust, but there is always a mantra of you knowI'll use the morbid version of it. But what if you walked outside you got hitby the Bos? Who would take your role? So there is always this focus on. Doyou have a strong number two and by the way, when you're highour number two?This is the part that a lot of people this is depending on the culture of thecompany. You have to really tot land. You know, we always us say, hiresomebody better than you and you know, look back over your shoulder because ofthat good and some companies that might be bad. That might be the death.Someone might say well that person is better than you and so I'm going tomove up, but it Marcetto, that's what got you promoted was when you hiredgreat people they'd be like all right. Well, you don't need to be doing thisjob anymore. Let's give it to them and let's move you into something that wasreally good, so it would open up opportunity to, and so that's a bit bitof a mature. I think you know leadership philosophy that I felt. Thatwas something that we got really right at Marchetto yeah. I mean, I think, it's really hard to scale a company ifyou're threatened by the people that work for you or with you. Even you haveto be have a big enough vision that you are rooting for everybody's successbecause because even because, ultimately the truth will catch up toyou anyway. So if you're, not any good that will be found out and you alsobecome unreliable as somebody giving counselor advice to management if it'sclear that you'r self interested the whole time. Well, I can tell you thiswhen I joined Pendo, our CEO Toddleson here, obviously the first reference hedid was with Phil Fernandas, my seet you at Marchetto, because I'd been withhim for a decade and after they had their conversation. Talking me and hesaid Hey. You know I talked to Phi and I talked with a couple ofther folks andhe said that from a skillset perspective you could you could writebooks on the volume and Velasy side of the business, but on the enterpriseside of stuff. You know that's not as strong. You break fifty one percentmore towards the smaller business type of deals. He was. What do you have tosay about that and I said Yeah it's Trie and he goes Huh. Should I beworried about that and I said no ND, he goes why I said well, let's think aboutthis. Your harm is a cro. If you're hiring me to be cro you're, not hiringme to be the Alfa level salesperson. If that's what you're trying to get, thenthen that's not what I want a the stage in my career and it's not the right fitfor both of us. So let's figure that out, I said, but I said Y. let me askyou question: was I at Marcetto when it went public in two thousand andthirteen he was like yeah I was like is Marcetto now their biggest business,their enterprise portion, he was yeah. I go yeah at's right because my jobwasn't to go be the best enterprise leader. My job was to hire theenterprise leader and make sure that they were awesome at what they did,make sure that they had the tools and the things they needed to go andrecruit and train and bring on the best enterprise sales talent in the world,and I said so he's absolutely right.

You Know Fil sad is you know like yeah.My earlier days when I was more hands on in sales was definitely much morebent towards that an b but the enterprise stuff fight a few years atpeople soft and a couple more years after that it bea before I kind ofstopped doing that as my role and moved up into real big leadership type ofpositions. I think- and your point is exactly right- A lot of people don'treally realize, like the number one job of a sea level executive is recruiting.It's not your job to know have all the answers. It's your job to make thesmartest people want to work with you that do have the answers. It's numberone SAM. I mean I just my cos over in London right now, because we're openingup our office there in February- and I just hung up with him before I got withyou and he said, Ih'd six interviews today, and so it's so true. It's like Ispend. I mean with this pace that we're growing, probably four or fiveinterviews per day. So you know obviously the cro their job isobviously delivered performance, but number two is to toobvously put theplayers on the field, and so that second part is just such a corkopponent of the role absolutely so we're almost. This has just been suchan easy conversation, we're actually almost at the end of our time together,but one of the things that you know you and I were talking about offline andwe've got so many up and comers that are listening to this right now. Youhave this phrase. You said crwer passer for bee players, and you know when e'rlooking back on your career, certainly you've done a lot of different things.You've taken different roles and different titles. So when you say cerepasser for bee players, tell us what you mean yeah, so that's creates alittle controversy and that's not why I say it and I'm trying to provoke athought process. Wonthink. We like profocation, just to be clear, allright. Well get this! Maybe do it for you, but let me first start this waytthat Marquetto and then here at Pendo we have a career path. We have a pathwhere we can go recruit. STRs, who are you know, right out of school or earlyin their career, train them up in that role of how to qualify, how to positionour product? How to talk and deal with you now potential buyers and then apath up to corporate sales role which can lead them to you, know midmarket,or that you go into managein world. So we do have a carved out path, so it isthere and it's necessary, it's necessary for me to give that thecruittop powe people want to be able to see that they join here that they have aplace to go. So sounds a little speaking outside of the other side ofmy mouth and that's not what I'm tempting O do. It's just that, I thinkthat's kind of tablesaxe. You have to have it. My point about FA players isat a players, don't tend to follow a defined career path. What happens witha players is opportunity knocks and smart savvy a players answer the doorwhen it knocks and they go fallow it, and that could be something. That's avery linear track of you know: Hey you're been an individual. You want toput you into a first line management. It could be in something that says wewant you to go overseas. It could be onct you to start up a new division ora new function inside of a business. That's not so linear, but the importantthing there is is that I just simply say for people that are top performersopportunitiis going to present it to them to themselves and take it justtake it. You know I mean I I the Fortune Sam to move to you mentionedearlier Sydney at the age of forty five, and you know I spent thirteen monthsliving there n my family, we loved it and and when we came back you know allI thought was wish I'd done, that at twenty five yeah. Oh, my God before youwere married, Jesus yeah, so I mean that's a whole different podcast. But but but you know you get the just.There is like like opportunity knocks for people and, like I said I, you knowmy first really big one was. I had a boss that encouraged me to go, get thisjob in Boston and, as I said earlier, in the podcast I'd, never even set footin the state of Massachusetts has no friends there. I was a West Coast Guyand- and I was like Gosh- I don't want to do it for those reasons she's likeyou're, going to do it, because this is going to advance you a career and giveyou that that you kof that turbo charge, Yoour career path and so- and Ifortunately listen to her and the job wasn't just offered to me. I had to go,compete for it and get it, but I was successful getting it nd. I went thereand, like I said it was probably the catalist, the key catless point in mycareer of advancing me. It's awesome bill. It's been awesome to have you onthe show right at the end. Here we tend to like to do. You know, pay it forwardkind of shoutouts. If you can think about, it can be books that you've readthat really had a big impact on you in any way it can be people like who aresome of your influences, whether it's great sales leaders or great books thatyou've read or any kind of ideas that you want us to leave us with that wecan sort of do more digging on yeah. Let me give you a couple of thosethings. So, first, all since we're talking about creer advancement,there's a book out there called multipliers by Liz wisesman anybody,that's making a move from an individual contribute to a manager. I think shouldread this book, because it's Bait like multipliers, it's about if you'regetting promoted from an individual to a manager, it's probably because you'rebeing recognized as really good at what...

...you do in that individual role and whatsomeone's looking for you to do is multiply yourself, make you know sevenor eight many Mes f what you are, and it really helps you tune into that thatleadership and management philosophy around that and then. Secondly, youknow around some some keymenters. You know we mentioned this group TMD atorcle that Tom Seabond Benny off were a part of it has an incredible lineage ofpeople that are out there. I mean James Ramsey, who went on to become thatwarwide sales at netsweet came out of that Org Mark Huffman, who also went onto run all of net sweets businesses and now, as the COO at black line, EricaShalz who's, the cro over at new relic norm, Genaro O who's, the Siro over atZendesk there's a group of us that all work together and it was kind of amagical time. We work for a woman named Hillary COPLA mcgadams, who was thepresident of sales force and then the see I think oo of new Ralicshe's sincegone inteventure capital. But you know there's just some inncredible peoplethere to your point about paying it forward. I didn't do this Alon, youknow I had people pushing me a people rooting for me. I people, mentoring meand people tell me really hard things. You Know Hey. Your tie is a little bitaf skew or you know you look a little Chubby. You should lose some weight, Imean like, like I make flight of it. I make things that ame not allowed to sayToa, I make light of it there. Sam, but like the reality is, is that they were.They were people that cared about me and they were really trying to do that,and so you know like when I was coming to Pendo. There are four individualsthat I reached out O to get their counsel. As I was looking atopportunities and exploring different things, one was clearly my dad. Theother one was Phil Fernand is the ldceo of Marcetto who's. You know, we'vecontained a great friendship and we taxed almost every day, and then I havea friend John Hunter, who is the chief Robin Officer at microphocus and thenMark Hoffman, who I previously mentioned. WHOs the COO black linereuch up to those four people and said: Look you know here's what I'm lookingat. You know here's my hies and lows: What do you think and- and it was greatlike to a t all of them essentially said Chese Pando, one of them didn'tsay it by name. One of them was just kind of subtly nudging me, but theother three were like bill: Go to Pando you're, going to go, create a spaceyou're going to help create some of the culture inside of that company you're,going to have a hell of a lot of fun and not going wood, hopefully repeatwhat you did at Marchetta. That's awesome! It's bill. You guys aregrowing, I'm sure you're hiring. If people out there want to connect withyou and maybe apply for job or maybe just seek you out as a mentor. Are youokay with people contacting you and then? If so, what's the preferredmechanism? Is it Linkedon as an email? How would you prefer Yeah Bill DotBench at Pendo that I ow is my email here, fireaway just come at me. Directawesome, buill thanks. So much for joining us on the show is Great Eah.Thanks for aving e SAM appreciate it everybody, it's Sam's corner what afantastic interview with bill. It's clear, why people love working for themand how he's capable of taking these companies to such great heights? And Iparticularly liked his advice on career pahing, it's a common theme and it'ssomething that you hear time and time again in this podcast and the realpoint of it is when opportunity knocks answer the door, so I think billsphrases. You know, B. Players have career paths. The point is that it's not that you don't seek upwardmobility. The point is that you have to be open to opportunity and open topossibility. I think one of the the best examples of this. I believe it wasSheryl Sanberg who was working for Larry Summers. You know something liketwenty years ago or something like that and somebody called and it was google.I think it was Eric schmint and she was having all this consternation about.Should she move out to the west coast. She was in DC at the time andultimately, Larry said: listen just it's a rocket ship get over there andshe hopped on that rocketchip and obviously that took her up to the ranksof Google and then into facebook, and it's because she answered the door whenopportuntiy knocked. So please remember to do this. So that's been Sam's corner,pretty short one, but the point is leanen leaning on your career takeopportunity and take advantage when you can and if there's a new opportunity,if there's an opportunity to move to a new city, one of my good friends, DanBrown, he was in New York. He worked for me at Axeel. He worked for me atlive stream. He then went on to weework he's at we work now opportunity.Knockdwe Work said: Go to Austin. He moved to Austin Opportunity Knockeagain he moved to San Francisco. This is a man that is putting his careerambitions as a top priority in his life and he's getting he's getting shit done.So we love you Dan or hope Youare out there listening now. If you want tocheck out the show notes, see upcoming guests play more episodes from ourincredible land up te sales leaders, visit sales hackercom and had to thispodcast tab. If you want to join us in San Diego, please do that it's unleashdot out reached a Io and remember that code is a hundred dollars off. Is Shpod you'll find this anywhere podcasts are made. So if you enjoyed thisepisode, please share with your peers...

...on Linkedin, twitter or elsewhere. Ifyou've got a great idea or a guest for the show, if you want to get in touchwith me, find me on twitter, at Sam f Jacobs or on Linton at Linoncom, in Samf Jacobs and lastly, if you're out there in a city that the revenuecollective is not yet president we're in Denver, BOSTON, London, Toronto, NewYork and Amsterdam, and we're growing all of those chapters and we're alsolaunching consulting services. So if you want to figure out what's going onwith the reve collective or if you're, in a city that doesn't yet have therevenent collective we're launching in about ten to fifteen new markets in twothousand and nineteen, that's a good reason to reach out to mean Likedinn aswell. So we're looking for VPN above sales and marketing leaders and successleaders across commercial functions, an high gresth companies and those are thefolks that represent the now over two hundred people that are in the globalrevenue. Collective. So Ping me on Linkdon ought to learn more: that'slinked, incom sash, the word in and then Sah Sam f Jacobs. Finally, thanksagain to our sponsors, chorus, the leading conversation, intelligenceplatform for high gross sales teams and outreach the leading sales engagementplatform, I will see you next time.

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