The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 2 years ago

42. The Key to Building Career as Sales Professional w/ Jamie Scarborough, Co-Founder, Sales Talent Agency

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This week on the Sales Hacker podcast, we talk to Jamie Scarborough, Co-Founder of the Sales Talent Agency, one of the largest sales recruitment firms in North America. Jamie’s team worked with over 18,000 sales professionals in 2018 alone and Jamie can share ideas, strategies, and tips on what makes a great salesperson, how to interview, and how to properly manage your career.  

One two one twe three FO everybody: It's Sam Jacobs and you're.Listening to the Sales Hacker podcast today, we've got Jamie Scarborough onthe pod. Jamie is one of the cofounders and partners, and maybe president he'sgot a number of important titles at sales talent, agency STA, which is oneof the largest recruiting firm, specifically for sales people in Canadaand he's on the pont to talk about a you know. They interviewed theyinteracted with eighteen thousand different sales professionals in twothousand and eighteen alone, and they placed over eight hundred folks. SoJamie understands what you need to do when you go into an interview what youneed to do when you're thinking about your career. He also understands, ifyou're, a hiring manager, if you are a sales manager looking to build yourteam, some things that you need to think about, and also you know, themost R, perhaps one of the most interesting parts of it is Toronto- isbooming right now the revenue Collectov of the organization that I run. We havesix chapters all over the world and one of those six is Toronto. And it'sbecause it's growing so quickly and specifically for sales teams and reallyfor for great companies. They just build great btob tech in Toronto and inCanada, that's been at least my experience home a shopiffy and a bunchof other amazing companies. Now, of course, we want to thank our sponsorsbefore we deeply dive in so the first is corus dot. Ai Course is the leadingconversation, intelligence platform for high growth sales teams, it recordstranscribes and analyzes business conversations and real time to coachtraps on how to become top performers with chorus more repsme quota. Newhirers ramfaster leaders become better coaches. Everyone in the organizationcan collaborate over the actual voice of the customer. I've used chorus, it'sa fantastic product. One of the great features, of course, is a playlist. Youcan put together playlist of like best moments on the sales team, or you knowcoaching moments, but it's a really really powerful platform. The entirecategory is really special, so that's Corus, dot, AI fordsash sales hacker tosee what they're up to we also are always sponsored by Outragh and I'llreach. H is the leading sales engagement platform. That's ow reachedout io outreach support sales raps by enabling them to humanize theircommunications, IT scale. So I suppose that means dropping authentic pieces ofinformation into email communication, as opposed to always looking like a Bot.Now they automate the bad part of the job. That's the sole sucking manualwork and what they do is provide action, oriented tips on what communicationsare working best. So outreach has your back and thisis particularly important,because if you're sending generic emails right now they are not working acold calld, pickup, Racor, declining it's getting more and more difficult toget through to people. If you're not personalizing the experience and that'swhat our reach helps to do. Now, we've got a couple: two more announcements:March, outreachis running UNLA, two thousand and nineteen. That's theconference. It's going to be the definit IFE, great new sales engagementconference and it's going to take place March ten through twelve in San Diegolisteners, O the pod get hundred dollars off simply for entering theCode Shpod so hof over to out reach. The website is unleashed on outreagedon Ao and use the Codesh pod to save a hundred dollars off your ticket andthen finally, lastly, we started a new traditionat sales acker, it's our topfifty awards, so we're continuing it this year. Look for those amazing sales.People were looking for those amazing sales, people who elevated the salesprofession in two thousand and eighteen. So we ask you podcast listeners, tonominate your colleagues or Yourselvs it's okay. If you nominate yourself, wewe may know, but we won't judge you there's no j, it's a judgment free zone,and you know your sales. People were all sales people imselve. We got tonominate ourselves. Winners will be featured on this very podcast, we'regoing to interview the winners and well receive some other very exciting prizes,including the recognition of praise in the sales hackerr community, so getnominating. You can nominate at sales. Hackercom Ford, Lash, nominate sales,hackercom forward nominate now without further ado. Let us listen to JamieScarborough on the sales hacker podcast everybody. It is Sam Jacobs, welcome tothe sales hacker podcast. We are really really excited to have a different typeof guest. Today, we've got Jamie Scarborough on the pod, and Jamie isimportant for a number of different reasons that I think we're going tofind out. But let me give you his quick background: Jamie's, a founding partnerat sales, talent agency, one of North America's biggest and most prolific,sales, recruitment companies and they've placed more than eight hundredsales professionals in two thousand and eighteen alone. So, as Co, presidentJamiehas helped more than a thousand employers from sales for shopify andtell us to acklands, granger sap and castral attract and higher top revenuegenerators. The companyhs been recognized by Canadian business throughits annual growth, five hundred listnings for five years in a row andSTA founded and runs the Great Canadian sales competition which is introducedmore than a thousand CA. Eleven Thousand Sorry College and universitystudents to be to be sale since launching in two thousand and fourteenis also a featured expert for profit guide in the areas of sales leadershipand recruit ant strategy. So if you, if you did not quite pick up Jamie, runsone of the largest and most successful...

...recruiting agencies, specifically forsalespeople in Canada, they're based in Toronto, and if you don't know aboutToronto, the Revenue Collective is launching a chapter there for very goodreason. It's boom town right now Toronto is one of the fastest growingmarkets for specifically for sales and marketing in North America, and I thinklearning about both the growth of that market, but also Jamie and his teamwork with as he as he mentioned. They placed over eight hundred saleprofessionals, intwo thousand and eighteen. So thinking about that, theymust have interacted with thousands and thousands of sales professionals. Theyknow benchmarking data, they know what's going on in the market. I thinkit's going to be a great conversation, so Jamie welcome to the show. Thank youso I'm nice to chat to you. We actually interacted with eighteenhousand. I knewyou would have that number. You guys have all of the data irs. What I on o.We follow. Souse fors, like every other sales company, we've got at KPS antheir dasbors and obviously one of the biggest things we follow is how manysouth people we meet and how many we interact with and how many we think arereally good and how many we can place and how many we do place so well, whilewe're here tell me some of those stats so wha, what is the ive specificallyinterested in sort of like the ratio between what you just said, people thatare really good versus how many people you meet? What is what is thatpercentage? Probably fifteen percent of the people we meet. We couldrealistically place now. That doesn't mean fifteen percent can get a job.Obviously the standards for a recruibant agency who has to charge aclient so that introduction is much higher than if the introduction camefrom employer referral or came by applying to an indeed job postingthey're, not going to look at the candidate the same way, but fifteenpercent of the people that we meet. We could typically place now. Some of itis just timing. You know we don't have the right role for the right at thatperson at the right time. We have amazing candidates, sometimes who fitall of our requirements, but by the time we've got something for them. It'stoo late, they've already got something kelse or theyhave been promoted orsomething, but fifteen percent of what of who we make we've got a realisticchance of presenting an Pison. I think that's that's an amazing stat, becauseat least in the US you know the unemployment rates below four percent.If I'm not mistaken and you're saying that eighty five percent of thecandidates that you meet, you don't think you can find a role for, even ifsome of them are just timing based yeah, so yeah, absolutely there's, maybe thegame. The standard for our business is really high. Most of the candidatesthat week can place have a job already, it's very hard for us to play someonewho doesn't have a job. Unfortunately, this is somewhat we're trying toaddress if someone's at a certain career point they're a little lessattractive for for a company to pay us for whatthe. Clients can be a littlemiopic in terms of what they're looking for in terms of cultural fit as theycall it for their business and we're going to try and change that persession.We think that's that's an opportunity, but yeah, and if some people are justnot good enough, if they've had to by jumps on their careers, sous isincredibly measurable. If they haven't hit the tiges, they need to hitconsistently. They may feel they're really good and they can sometimes getvery upset with us for not presenting them to rolls that they think theywould be brilliant at. But the reality is wear in a world where our clientdictates a very, very high bar and we have to jump over. That makes a lot ofsense. We're going to dive into a lot of the conversation, both especiallyaround all of the data that you've seen and you know I have so many differentquestions about personality profiles and the advice that you give yourclients. But let's focus on you for a second. You know we can hear the accentso tell us where you're from I'm a a Saundal strukin M, I'm from East London.So if you think of hetwenty minute train ride fromlivelporl street station, I can assure you that most of thepeople listening have no idea where Liverpool Street station is, but Iactually do know where it is tha how you bi, maybe we're Unde Sellan a lotof people ave seen that cu nam. I know I grew up in England, but I actuallygot to Canada when I was nineteen, one thousand nine hundred and ninety fourand and I've been here ever since I lived half in Vancouver half in Toronto,so almost like. If for people that don't know the map, that's kind of likeliving half in la half in New York, I got it when I was nineteen had beendoing. You know had no education, no no university degree. Seventy percentof Canadians hade some kind of postseconary education, so it was atypically would be a disadvantage, but I came into Canada an amazing time. Idebate this with my Mama Lot about the best time to grow up in terms of theability to get a job, and I believe that I had an incredible luck advantagebecause at the age of on Tuand, Nineeen and twenty, the worldwide web isbasdally just launching, and so no one is really trained on it, except for theengineers, so no one in sales they're not looking for education, they'relooking for bright minds, and I was fortunate enough to be able to getahead start wow and what prompted you to move from London to Toronto andVancouver to move to Canada in the...

...first place. Well, I gon up in England.I would watch all of these great shows like Bay Watch and neighbors and andand nine on two one. No and I'm sitting in this East London House, in amiserable gray area and Lesser Londonat, England's wonderful. I go back thereall the time. My familys still there and I love it, but at that point Ididn't I was like whyt. Am I doing this beaches around the world? There'splaces you can go and there's people having showers and we have bath tubsand thes, I'm just thinking what am I doing and so from a very, very youngage. All I wanted to do was get out. I was, I left, Ingtan very young actually around sixteen and LSO that gap between sixteen andNineteen. You were a not lik, were traveling the world and seeing theworld or or Dod something that makes it sound much more romanic than it was. Iwas a you know, a lot of people go and want to see amazing things I justwanted literally to go and run all over the place and be chaotic and that'swhat I did I lived in Tena Reef was the first place I went to. I went there ona small vacation with a friend and just TOR. My ticket and Dhidn't come backfor for the summer. That was the first thing and then I went from there toBalbadus and did the same thing and longer, and then I went from there toTylem, Alaisia, Indonetia, Australia. That's where I get this crazy accent,and you may have also gotten the traveling bug from Australia, becausethis is a very traditional profile F for a lot of the ossis. I know andVancuve s a very taditional place for them to con to so that's how, when you got to Canada Li, how did youyou know? THT, one thousand nine hundred and ninety four STA isobviously not you know whatever it is. Twenty pesteers Alli Yeah Teo walk usthrough that path and specifically the path to you know, starting your ownbusiness and what what you were doing before and what the impetus was to tobecome an entrepreneur. I I got a sols job, obviously, when you're traveling,like thate, and even before that I always wanted freedom and my whole life,that's kind of been my driving force, and so I wanted money early. I wantedto have enough money where I didn't have to rely on anybody else, and so Iwould take jobs. I would work in bars very, very early, I'm very tall and Icould in England there was a little bit more leniency. So from a very fortein Iwas working in pups. I was working a was do paper outs, Iwas doing selling state nined dougter door. I was working on a market store,selling, rugs and carpets anything. I could do to make money. I was happy todo just to create a bank croll so that I had some freedom and I get to Canadaand nineteen after doing all of that, for years and years with out really anyidea of what I'm going to do, I did not have a corporate bone in my body, I, myoldest sister, was very at that point and still, but at that point I feltvery accomplished in the corporate world. It didn't feel like me, and Ithought I was going to be a writer, so I started writing a book. I finishedthe book. It was terrible. Yi know it was a horrible work. I stillhave it somewhone. It makes me cringe. Whenever I pick it up was it fition was't fiction or nontriction Os Looka. It was very salacious and fictional. I wasfantastic and terrible, and I sent ha first couple chapters to a bunch ofadvertised notices and publishing companies to try be an editor really. Ididn't think I was going to get the book sold. I really didn't think it was that goodat that time. So I tried to be an editor or a writer, and I got a job asa junior copywriter Withi, a recruitment advertising agency calledTMP is actually cooled cotter at the time, but ee familiar with Tmpau Stoososothe time Te Co, an advertising was massive. You got to think this isbefore the Internet, so companies were spending a absolute fortune toadvertised jobs to advertise their company as a place to work, and so itwas a huge business youwuld. You know. If you wanted to advertise aengineering job, you' spend you know thirty. Forty thousand dollars on aweeky on a weekly newspaper at in the Trono global mouth and my job was towrite those awful ads that were here. We grow again and all of those crentthings I did that for years and but promoted a few times, and they hadtrouble feding me into where they thought I could be. I I loved workingwith clients and love working with a team and really enjoyed what we weredoing, and so a few years in they said Weld you like to be a Sansperson, andat this point I progressed to being a creative director. I was probablytwenty four twenty five and I said no, I love that title. Creative director,that's fantastic and they sayd well you're Goin to make a lot more moneyand say well: okay, let's give it a try, and so I gave I a PRI got into sauseand absolutely loved. It and TMP ended up owning something called Monster:monstercom, which was a huge job board, the late s and only twosand herde e, and it wasmassive wend. I ended up working theras, a south person. I was Tousrep for theyear for the multiple years I managed their team and met my business partnernow who became stausup for the year after after when I was in thatleadership rol, and then we decided we...

...were going to start our company and wethought hey. You know what we should do. I don't like the job board businessbecause you can't you're, not you don't feel like you're solving a problem. Youfeel too far away from hiers and we didn't feel that there was a reallygood souoqetent specific company and we just went we're going to go and do it,and so we started to two thousand and seven sours Tomon Agency, so you'vebeen in business for twelve years, so how's it going and sort of. What haveyou learned and tell us about? I mean I was in I kind of know how it's going,because I was in your offices last week and it's going amazing but tell therest of the audience. You know about the growth over the last twelve yearsand sort of how the business is doing. Well, it's funny because we went onthere. We are on this fastest growing list, which always makes me laughbecause we're the slowest growing fast grown company, I've ever seen, wwe'vegot weare really good company we' got sixty people, Ale, amazing problem,solvers, all different career levels, that's what they do every single day.You know, sixty ine percent of our income goes out to salaries and bonusesand commissions, because our product really is people the people that solvethe problems for our clients. Every year we've grown every single quarter.We'VD go year over year, we're now at ten million just a little over tenmillion of revenues a year. Any company in the Software Space THATV got to tenmillion after eleven years would want to jump off a bridge, but we reallyhave it with it. We love what we do. We work with some amazing companies. Wetry and be better all the time I think. What's really excited me about ourcompany, is you know? You start the business and you go hey we're going tobe the greatest souse equipment company ever and we placed candidates, and wewere actually doing pretty well and a few years in. We realized, actually,the candidates were place, ind they're, not that much better than thecandidates that they're hiring themselves. The only difference istheyre, paying a lot more money for them, and so we really we looked at ourbusiness and said we got to figure out what the ingredients for a great sousepersoner is, and we came up with someitg called DNA pro, which is supersimple and almost to the point of idiocy, but it is amazing and it isincredibly impartful and every time I talkd to a souds leader about it, therare like, Oh, my God. How do we not been doing this all all along? Oh, whatis hit tell us about it. Well, so you know there's loads of ways to analyze.Soue people t there's loads of Opportunitye. You can have the moretime you can spend with a a candidate, the bedder, every employers trying tomake great saues hires, and so we said, okay. Well, what are we trying toanalyze thot? What are we actually looking for, and so we asked all of ourCIET. You know what do you look for in a souse person and we will find incompany within the same company. If you put a white board up and said what doyou look for in a souse person, every sous leader would come up with fiftydifferent dacks and we ere like well. Why are Y, we all looking for o thesame ingredients but said a different way and we came up with DNA. Pro DNA isrelated to their raw telent. So if someone seventeen years of age or ifTheyr, seventy years of age, what is the ingredients that you need to bereally good at Stet and then Piaro Hey? What makes you job ready for this roleright now? How can you ramp up quicky so simple for us with DNA was drive,nature, acuman, very simple words, but we broke them down in a way that a lotof people hadn't thought of them before so, for example, drive everyone wouldsay. Yes, a south person needs drive, but we often as leaders miscategorizesdrive with ambition. We think that someone's ambitious, therefore they'redriven. We think that they're loud and aggressive, therefore they're driven,but what we found was you needed three things to have drive in the way that weneeded it, but we needed someone who had a great work ethic, hey souls,people, f e, live place to hide, not so much in the modern era, but at the timewe launched you know there was a lot of outside soles people who could sit intheir car for hours on end if they wanted to. So we need someone who was,you know, had a great work ethic. They were accountable to themselves. Weneeded someone who set goals for themselves. As you know, companies setgoals for south people all the time, but the best souse people pretty muchignore those girls. They don't care about quota quotas for mediocre people.They care about the goals they set for themselves, which are typically muchhigher e quota, and we want someone who's Azilion enough to go through allof the crap. You have to go through to get to those goyds as a soulhs person,you're going to get told no Egh ton, and you got to be okay with that, notaccept it, but be okay with it. So having a good work, I think, with theresiliency to be able to get to that goal was a huge thing, and so we'realways looking for people that have set goals for themselves depending on whatcareer level they are. It may be in their personal, professionaleducational, Athletic Life, and we want to see how hard that goal was and whatthey did specifically to bus through that wall to punch through that wall toget to that goal. So that was drive okay! Well, that was fantastic. Then wesaid well drives not enough, because hey you can a serial killer can havedrive wening at one who's got a great...

...amount of nature. What we refer to asnature is emotional intelligence. You can call it empathy if you want to Weryou debate, often whether there is empathy but emotional intelligence iscritical for a souse person, you're going to be dealing with people all thetime, different kinds of people, different personality, types, differentand career levels, different influence levels, and you need to be able tounderstand where they're coming from you need to be able to have aconversation with them in a way that makes sense to them and then finally,you need acumen we're in a world where we want challenges. We want a solution,sous people, we want consultants, wer problem solve as as souse people now,and so we need someone who's bright and curious. They don't have to be aJaopady champion. They just have to have a bright curious mind wherethey're going to become an expert, something if you think about the bestchallenges. Theyre experts they're not challenging just because theyre decks,theyre they're actually challenging because they know what they're talkingabout and the client may not Ha may have a problem that they don't evenrecognize yet, and that sounds personis going to help them figure that outbecause they know it. They learn more about the soush process. They learnmore about the competition, they learn more about the sells the client andwhat they do and how they do it and what challenges they face and they aresponges for information. So that's just the DNA side and you can kind of seethat if you start digging into that, you can get really pasionate about notjust what it is but how to find it. In someone yeah I mean that's, that'sactually the question the main and so first of all, one commen is to yourpoint exactly to your point. Like a lot of these qualities are just you know, alot of people are talking about them, but using slightly different words. Ihave a question you know about drive and about resiliency. Do you have adegree of difficulty scale when you're asking a question of a candidate? Youknow you say: What's The tardest thing you've ever done and you sort of have aframework where, if it wasn't quite hard enough in your opinion than thatdisqualifies them, how do you test for drive? Well, so every role? So if youthink of DNA as dime switches right, so some roles require a lot more drivethan other Os. If you're selling stake nights door, the door you're going toneed a drive on eleven, whereas if you're working for a company as anaccount manager, your drive level main otly to be quite as high, it doesn'tmake, it doesn't mean it can be a to, but it doesn't have to be quite ahite.So a lot of the time we're analyzing, based on a specific role, what therequirements are as opposed to whether they could be good at toll. But whenwe're looking at drive, the question we always ask ourselves is: Why is thatgood? You know, for example, if you get someone Junor in our company, will thefirst few weeks of their job is literally just to analyze DNA of ahundreds of candidates. That's what their only job is to interview analyzeso that we can kind of help them direct their questions, because it's not asame question every single time. You've got to try and dig in and figure outwhat was hard for them, and it doesn't mean just because they have drive thatthey'll be good in south, for example, there's loads of people that have anamazing will when it comes to exercise, maybe it's to a try athlete, but theydon't have. They haven't, prioritized and work in the same way: they'vecriitized their health o fitness in that way, so their drive is beingexecuted completely. Their goals are completely related to their athleticachievement. What we've got to do is not only find out, do they have drive,but is it directed in a way that is useful for us n Nour clients, and wouldyou say that directing it usefully means? Frankly, I mean this issomething iul always learned when I was go to going through discussions aboutassessment and assessing personality profile. is they like to make money andthey're willing to admit that is that is that a framework or a test that thatyou use when you're talking to candidates? I think that's a reallygreat question you want to. I just said about myself: I want to make money. Thequestion is why and how much bit, because what you're trying to do so,let's say, for example, it's someone at the beginning of their career. I wantto make money, I want to know what does that mean to you and what are youprepared to do to get it? Does Mak in money mean forty tousend dollar a year,consistent income, or does it mean you want to get to a hundred thousanddollars in the next two years, in which case that's kind of interesting? Nowthat doesn't that's just ambition again, I've now got ta align that with theanalysis of whether they have what it takes to meet that ambition, the workethic and the resiliency, but that's the goal. They've got it's aninteresting got that does help me. Align it and say: Yeah you've got theright goal. Now it sous a bit more senior their goal. Wer like to moneycan become completely different, almost debilitated where they become goldenhandcusfs and they're more focused on a consistent big income than they areabout chasing something much bigger. It's a great point, theres sand,because this just even this conversation you can see it's it's ait's a it's so fluid! You know if I knew exactly how to identify drivingevery single person, a hundred percent...

...of the time. I would be way what I' berich rige rich bu like in an mazing Wi yeah. What is interesting for me is that whatI say to employers all the time and they have to keep in mind that as anemployer, your job is to take risks, but it's to analyze and medigate badrisk right you hiring, someone is like bedding on is Bettin in poker. You have you can'twin unless you bear, but you can only lose if you Bett and same as in recruitment andemployment, you can't get bigger. You can't get more money unless you hirepeople, but the only way you can make bad highs is by hiring people. So yourjob now is not to be right. It's to mitigate as much risk as possible.There is no successful leader out there that hasn't made mistakes, including me lots and lots of them. I did anowsislast year, we'd hired a hundred and twenty eight people in our entirehistory, and I trye to put them in three buckets as to should I never havehied them should I have hired them and they did agreat job and that was awesome or could have done a better job as a company,but every employer, every leader needs to be analyzing that and trying to getcloser and closer and closer to the root of risk mitigation and riskassessment. Yeah, and so I mean I agree completely- that I've always saidhiring as a probablistic exercise. That's how you have to understand it.It's o your point, if you're not hiring at all and also it shouldn't, keep I Iguess well this. I love your reaction to this statement, which is the the lack of a perfect hiringprocess, should not keep you from making hires pad. What do you thinkabout that? Whel of Cour Yo Ha Absolutel? First, yes, so ther? What isa perfect time process? You know, there's amazing books out there, let'slook at something like top grading, which is a really interesting way ofanalyzind of of interview, and a lot of companies have used that verysuccessful in the past, but is flawed as well. Every taby flood the realityof a Croman is you could yell out of your window, who wants a job? Someonecould lift up their hand and that could theoretically be your best hir you'veever made. He could be redyay now the probability is low, so the better youcan get ever cruwed in is that's awesome, but we do notice that ascompanies go from early stages, where the leader of the company who's got areal good post on what they want, the leader of the company who's gotthat pulse on what they want as they get further and further away from therecruiting process. The company that can often go through some challengesbecause the people they're put in a a much more stringeen recrupment process,but the people in that process aren't as close to the solution. HMM, that'sreally interesting and iget past that and then you get the companies that arereally big, who, frankly, are just doing a horrible job, because they'velet their their operation to HR team, take control of in a way that isimpossible for you to make good good decisions as a leader you're,making decisions that are holistic that are designed to weed out the worst notto get the best. I want to ask you a question about sort of career pathingfor people. You know the world has changed so much what advice when you'vegot all of these young. You know sales professionals and you again, you meteighteen thousand last year. What's the advice that you're giving themspecifically about managing their career? Do you think have the ruleschanged? Have they evolved? Are they still the same? And what do you see?You know the common mistakes people make as they look out. You know five toten years over the course of their career. Well, the Mo we ran, as yousaid earlier, thet we Wen the biggest student competition in the country,which is designed to get young people into soues in the first place, and thisyear then near five, we gut fourhousand people from ety campuses across thecountry who are all talking about south. That doesn't mean they're going to gointo sales, but they're talking about it in a way that they wouldn't havedone six years. We, and so we talkd to them a lot about career path and ideasand what you know, how do you manage a career and again it depends on yourlevel. But let's talk about someone early stages, the first thing you'vegot to say is well what do you need? What is your hierarchy of needs? Youknow Maslo's hierarchy of negose Wak about hierarchy of needs, a lot whichis what is the first thing you need as a soues person and what they oftenforget is the value proposition. You know you can get so attracted to thesebright and shiny companies that are getting a lot of money invested in them,but they actually as a soush person incredibly hard to sell because theydon't have something that really is unique and compelent. They don't haveproof of it, and so the first thing a south Qerson. You got to look for whenyou're making a decision on on a Rolis. Do you have something that has anaudience and can you communicate H, t that factor to that audience in a waythat is compellent and then you go ar? Is there a manager, a leader, a coachor an infrastructure that set up for me to cocontinue to develop? You know,obviously, if you're little later in...

...your career, you may want more autonomyand no development, your you're a gun for hire, but early on you don't knowanything. You know I think about myself as a SOEs person in my early days inBtob sous and I was absolutely useless. I still make Salles but a rate that wasso much less efficient and effective than it would be at this stage of mycareer and so for me, first, a voice. The biggest mistake people make is theyjump to a shiny object there in a path instead of staying in that path?Someone else comes along a company like mine and they wave hey, hey, hey, lookat this you've been there for eight months nine months a year. Look whatyou could be doing! Look how much they'll pay you and you make that moveand as much as you would think. As a recritment agency, we would encouragethat we don't at all. We feel like every career jump should be a threeyear, minimum carrage jump so that you've had a chance to learn something,prove something and get a really good reference andadvocate from your employer, and so that's interest. I mean I would betthat most you know. Seles professionals, particularly early in their career, arenot staying. Places F for three years are there. I would imagine that, fromyour perspective, it doesn't hurt them quite as much as it may be used totwenty or thirty years ago, but you know it strikes me just that the act ofputting the stones together the path assembling, the path that becomes acreer is just much less transparent to people in terms of what should they dothan it than it's ever been before. I guess I mean I don't know if you agree well yeah. I think that the average curtenure of asales person we know the average ten your ou souse peson- is much much lessthan that. I mean we're in a really high perfast. As you said earlier,Tronto is a growing market. If you look at Boston, if you look at Seattle, ifyou look at Houston San Francisco New York, similar markets, where there is ahuge amount of new companies that are coming up, that are being incrediblywell funded, that are looking for really good talent and that town pal isscarce, and so it is really attractive to make those moves. When I say threeyears, that is an ideal. That certainly is not what's happening: Yeah Yeah,when you so we've talked sort of from the kindate perspective when you'recoaching employers, you know you mentioned tmp and you know I thinkemployer branding is more important than ever. He certainly I worked at theMuwse, so that would reinforce that that idea. But you know what are youcoaching: The employers, the companies when they're trying to put toget youmentione that there's a bunch of flaws in the in the recruiting process? Whatdo you think is the perfect regruiting process and how how should a companydesign itself in order to get the best possible talent? So we have an answerfor this. I'm gonna just go through our to process of I love it. The answersare good. perctthe first thing I want an employer to think about is what is agood hire right because often times when you say hey, what's a great highyou've made they'll tell you someone in the last six seven months who they love who's, doing a good job,but actually, if you think about a great hireat someone who's hit numbersbeing a cultural contributor to help you grow as a business for an extendedperiod of time. Whatever that period of time is depends on your business on howquickly you can monitize them, how quickly they can ranparp. If it's asoul cycle of eighteen months or more, if they're not there for three years,there's no chance, they've been affective, but and if it's a reallyfast out syycle, they could have been really effective in eighteen months.But the first thing you've got to do is say: Well what is a great hire and nowyou've got to say well, why do we not sometimes make great highes? What isthe most obvious reason, and the first thing that an employe will say to youis well we chosen incorrectly. I should have chose a different person and whatwe will tipically says: Yeah, that's one of them, but there's two otherreasons that are much bigger. Those reasons are that you didn't have goodpeople to choose from you didn't find and ATTRACP them. So you ended upchoosing high low high risk COT hires that you shouldn't have chosen becauseyou hadn't got low riskiers in your put in your pipe one and the other one isthat you hade a good high. You didn't equip them for success, you're blamingall of their failue on on them. When, actually, you need to take a muchbigger look at yourself, so we come up with someing called face, face, find atract choose, equip and every one of our biggest clients wer try and do withevery client, but it's obviously so were much more transactiona with some.We look at that find attrack hose equipment we try and to analyze each ofthose areas and say: Okay, how are you finding candidates? How are youbasically getting in front of people that would have a conversation with you?They've got the skill set basically you're. Looking for and they want tohave a conversation with you, what are you doing in terms of imporer furrals?What are you doing in terms of inboundlead? What are you doing interms of of outbound network in or head...

...hunting, or whatever you call it, thenyou say well now that you've havein these conversations, that's a that'sgreat, but good candats have choice. How can you attract those goodcandidates to Your Business? You need to know what those good candidates want,and you need to be understanding that a pingpong table is not going to do it. You know I goto so many companies nownow this is kind of a Cliche, but we'll go into that company. An the firstthing. They show us when they talk about their employe experience. Is agames room or is a kitchen? That's got free food and it's like well, listenthat may appeal to some people, but it doesn't appeal to good sales peoplethey can pay for their own stuff. DANTR IM I am against free food and then we go to find a tract. Now yougot to choose them. Use that DNA pro process that doesn't mean that solvesyour problem is just the ingredients, but now, let's look at how you're goingto identify those ingredients and then and I'll get to that pro part later. Ifyou want to and then the last part is equip okay, you done all this work.You've lifted up all the rocks to find them. You've worked really hard tobuild an environment that tracts them. You've looked to your contensatio,you've done everything, you've gone and you've analyzed and based on DNA pro tochoose them. You've done all kinds of panel interview and top grade andassignments assessments, and now you've got to equip them for success. You'vegot to put them in a spot where that maslows hierarch of solves needs isactually provided. You got to keep looking it over and over again and say:What do they need that they don't have right now to be the best version ofthemselves, so that they're not only performant at high rate but they'realso happy here. Most people don't want to jump from job to job. They do itbecause they're running out of a perceived roadway where they are, itmakes a lot of sense. Yeah I mean I feel like even just the. What kind of advice do you givecompanies around employer branding? Are you telling them hier TMP. Do bigvideos, you know. What's what sort of the fundamentals from that perspectivejust in when we're thinking about attract yeah, we talk about beingauthentic. Again A I try to be agnostic in terms of referals. You know like whodo you refer? Someone to you know I find TMP I work for for years. Itdepends what team you get like any advertising agency. You know if you,the team that some come Pur advertis advertising companies of any kindcomeing with is their best team and then once Yore there for a year, do youstill have their best team? But theoretically you need to. However, youdo it, whether it Wen it be outsourcin it in or internally you need to saywhat is our experience? We talk about it as an employer brand. We talk aboutas a culture. What is our experience, and how can we communicate that so thatthe people that would really enjoy this experience know of it can can interactwith it? We try a get them to be much much more authentic, I'll give you anexample right now, one of the things that every candidate does. Ideally theyshould before they make a decision. is they go into glass door and they lookat all of the grasssor reviews of that company. Well, who puts a review? Whatemployee puts a review on glassdoor ther are t, mostly the disgruntlednegative employee. That's been my experience, that's the first one who's,the other one, the well, the manager posing as a as a midletal enploy, the hpress and the manager Teman of his family who's Gong. This is the greatestplace. I've ever worked AUT. I would never work anywhere else again. Ifsomeone gave me a hundred thounld more, I would there's no way. Yes, there'stwo things so so Wev got this glass stor, which theret it's an interestingidea, but theo, but in practice, is actually a very flawed analysis. So you go well why you needto not let them be so reliant on that analysis. Give your candidates moretransparency into what you do really well and what you don't do really welldo XA interviews on camera with people that leave the organization and lettheir word stand. Don't let it be foney have an opportunity to really tell yourstory. What do you do? Well, what don't you do? Well, what are you improving?You know: How do you managers lead? What is their goal? Howare theymeasured when up promotions made how they made. Is it a maritocrasy? If so,how can you prove it? It's exactly the same. You we put so much effort nowinto what we sell as a company, but the reality is without the right salesprofessionals. We are in a really tough spot. We need to put as much thoughtinto how to communicate our value proposition to the employees beforethey get there and it's not as easy as a nice ad from TMP DM Right Yeh. Hecoun definitely help don't get me wrong, Hey, listen! I did great work there andI know some amazing people, but if Youre expecting advertising to solveyour problem, you'll get people coming in who leave three six nine monthslater, because it wasn't true, you got to get to the root of what you doreally well figure out what you do...

...polly and look for ways to mitigatethose challenges. If you know you can't pay as much as the market, you got tobe a little bit more thoughtful about the candidate, pull that you go fromand not try and get people from the same pole be a little smarter. You haveto look at all of the little things that you do really well, and you knowwe're in a world where there are some beast companies out there that have alot more money to spend. So, if Youre Het thinking that the only way you'regoing to get ton candidates is by out spending O, you don't have a lot ofbullets. Ind You gut you're, absolutely right and also the well. You know youjust have to decide. Where do you want to emphasize, and maybe maybe pay asone of the arres that you want to emphasize but then again, you're you' E,going Nto the deep water with the people with pools of capital, like youknow, facebook and sales force and all those folks tick, because a lot of the employerswill say yeah, but him makes that money and he's fine and you go well. Hey Timhasn't been recruited enough, yet thims an Henomaly if you, if you can survivebuilding your business on Tim good for you, but you may need sixty of those ahundred of those two hundred of those and you're in a tough spot, you're,absolutely right, so we're almost at the end, actually ave our time together.But there's one last topic. I want to talk about because we love giving sortof practical actionable market driven inside so you're in the market, all thetime talking to sdras and account executives your in Toronto Walcusthrough some of the numbers. What are the numbers that you're seeing for BASSSALARY? Are? We still seeing you know account executive, at least midmarketSASS account executives in New York. You know markets about sx sixty, sosixty thsedoars base sixty hzan dolar bonus. The quote is probably FIVX. Thethe Ote on the commission target SRS are different. What are you sayingJamie in terms of compensation so that the people listening can know ifthey're, you know making them out that they're supposed to O, if they'reoverpaid underpaid and what the frameworks are? I think it's a reallytimely question. Obviously the first question we ever get asked by anemployer is: What should we pant? That is a question that we tri to answerover the years with a salary guide, we've got a defenitive salary guide,but actually that Guid is just vastly out ofdate now and what we've found isthat every salary guide is out of date, how we taking that information, isincredibly floowed and so we're actually in the process of buildingsomething right now called our last one hundred and our last one hundred isessentially an algorithm and it takes their last one hundred placements,whether it be holistically or in specific, the regions or with specificjob titles or role descriptions, and you can actually see the last onehundred placements. What the salary was, what the total income was, what a wordcloud of what benefits were, and you could also see that down to the lastten placements, so you can start to get a real time. It will update all thetime, because every placement we make will be added to that data. So the lastone hundred is always changing in the last ten is always changing. How do weget our hands on the last one hundred this is sounds amazing. We're going tobe Laughi in the next before the end of t one we will havelodged it and I would love for you to help us analyze it ham. Obviously thisis something that's passionate for you and I would love your healp with thatGran. I will definitely get you on thet to, but so theoretically we gotsomething that we've got ta finish, but is a really good answer for this? Let'slook at it practically. As you know, in major markets around North America,real estate has jumped massively in the last few years. In the last ten fifteenyears, income convensation has not typically matched that and it was pushing at the seams in the last fewyears and it has exploded now. The last two years have had massive massiveincreases in the income and thesalaries and the market expectations ofcandidates and what they're gevting out there, for example, if you're a newgraduate now just two or three years ago, you couldhave come out in a sous well for a thirty six housand dollar salary offorty fivehousand you're not going to get anywhere close to that anymore. Youknow if a new graduate is not coming into a role: An tless, it's forty, twoto sixtyzand at a new graduate for an str now graduate for NSDO. I rememberthese Ar milliondollars or US Die Olar Sam. So whenever I'm talkit about thismoney right now, we do a lot of placements in the US, but I don't Khavequite as much o e knowledge of that. So I'm going touse Canadian dollars you've got to take thirty percent difference on Thet, ohgood. So let's say forty two to Tis what you mentioned. So let's say:Fiftyzeoa is the midpoint and that's base. That's a base salary andtypically it will be FIF for an SDRBDR. The the BAS salary is going to behigher and you're going to have another twenty thirty percent in commissions orbonuses. Once you get to thet AEU Ange you're going to get in more like fiftfifty percent, fifty percent, fifty percent yeah and now in tha AA range.You could there's a really really wide range again depends on the industry,but let's say within the text: Bace for the time being, you're. Definitely nowlooking at a very minimum of Sixty Five K base and we've seen a yeas in thelast year going for over a hundred...

...eighty hundred eighty mes and again itdepends on what their expectation is, the expectation of what they're goingto be bringing into a company if they're working on software deals thatare millions and millions of dollars and expected to do three huge deals ayear. A onded and eighty base with a three ND sixty on target is absolutelyin the ream of possibility. Whereas, if you're looking at something that thesolt cycle is more likely six months, the average deal size the annualrevenues, the the annual revenues of a company or the the pricepoint would be twentythozer dollar you're, probably looking closer fromsixty five to eighty five k base with a non target income of on onered ND.Thirty, two one. Seventy yeah great last question specifically on SRS. Okay,if you don't know the answer, but we talk a lot about SDR COM plans. Youknow: Do you see commonalities there? You know the Twentyto, thirty percent.Is it typically just opportunities generated or meeting set? Do you see asignificant percentage of the time that the SDR is getting? You know onepercent of the closed business that they originate. You know just talk tous a little bit about that, because it's a topic of common escention. Weall know that the soues process in software sincepredictable revenue came out. INTWO thousand and Leven the south proe southprocess es changed dramatically for almost every company, but especially inthe software space, everyone's taking chanks of the sales process. Very fewpeople re doing fulsale cycle. When it's fullale cycle, you can be measuredcompletely on the revenue and it's fine. You know you're opening the RevenueYoure closing the revenue when it comes to an Sdor Bdar, but let's talk aboutan Est. Let's talk about an out bound, solls professional, only responsible for essentially getingit to the point where I now qualifying to the point where in AE is taken Iover to give them. I based on revenues, actual deal closing can be quitefrustrating for them because they have so little control over thei actual dealclosing, and it's also so much later than whenthey were involved in the process. They could be involved in the process eightmonths before anything happens. So what we'R, finding more and Moreis peoplebeing paid for activity and quality activity as opposed to revenues beingPA paid for the book meeting as opposed to being paid, they may get a trailingnumber based on the revenues, but it won't be just evenues itill, be basedon quality activities, books meetings, bookd meetings that convert intoquality sales processes as a posed to just a revenue that' generated from it,got it very good Jamie. It's been incredible to have you on the show. Wedid not get, unfortunately, to figuring out what pro is? Why don't you tell Ahiver quickly, whateer yeah, exactly that is Tik and and we're going to have youon Friday fundamentals in a couple days, and that's when we're going to I'mgoing to ask you one question which is you know? What's the number one pieceof advice you can give people going into an interview, but before we partways this time it would be great. So if I'm a person in Toronto or I'mconsidering moving to Canada or I'm just a sales professional, I want toget in touch with you. I guess the first question is a is that okay, areyou open to people from that are listening to the podcast reaching outto you absolutely in not just okay, I'm encouraged. If you ever want to reachout to me, you can obviously reach out to me on Lin, thim and I'll, be happyto point in the right direction, very good, very good and any parting wordsor life motto or Guiding Principles that that you want to share beforebefore we hit the road. On this conversation, we have a very clichademode that solls talent agency, which is the way you do anything is the way youdo everything, and so we try and explode. We try and take everything wedo seriously, even when it should be laughed at. We try and take every dayas if it is something. That's really important every kind problem. Weunderstand that we're not pureing cancer, most companies Aren'. So thereis a certain sense of humor you have to have in business, but we take everyproblem that we get really really seriously and and and try and run it ashard as we possibly can and be the south people be the business peoplethat we want our clos to hire. I love it. I love it Jamie! Thank you so muchfor joining us on the SALESHACKER podcast folks. It's the spelling, Dude.The last name is SC Ar Br Bo R, O. U Gh scarborough and he's on Linkdin. So ifyou want to reach out to Themon, linkedidnand get in touch, he'll beresponsive and if you're a candidate that'll be great and if you're acompany looking to HIRSD that'll, be great too. Do I get that correctly?Jimmie solutely perfect. So thanks so much for joining and an we'll talk toyou on Friday. Look forward to it, everybody it's Sam Jacobs, and this isSam's corner. We really enjoyed speaking with Jamie Scarborough and onFriday, fundamentals he's going to have some really great insights on on how toprepare for an interview. I took away a couple things that we've heardrepeatedly on the POD: THEY STA sales...

...tollent agency, that the company thatJamie runs, they've developed a thing called DNA pro. We didn't figure outwhith pro stancs, for because we were having so much fun talking, but we didfigure out that DNI stands for drive, nature and acuman. We talk a lot aboutqualities that make a great sales person. I want to focus on on drive andyou know he has his own way of framing it, and we've talked about the will tosell on the podcast and commitment, responsibility, outlook andaccountability and desire. That was the other one, but Jamie frames at hisdrive. It's not just ambition. So his point is it's not just about you knowwanting something big for yourself: It's! What are you willing to do to toget that in my world? I call that commitment and his world. He calls thatdrive and Weziliency, but we recognize that it's just important. What are youwilling to do to achieve the goals and why are you willing to do it and whatproof do you have that you've done that? Also echoing Danny Hurtzburg and abunch of other people goal setting, they want to know hiring managers wantto know what are the goals that you've sat and how can you demonstrate thatyou've achieved them, and why are those goals interesting to you? Why do theymotivate you? Why do they challenge you? So I think that's something else.That's interesting! Now. Finally, we talked a little bit about com rememberto adjust for Canadian dollars, but in the Canadian market right out of school,we're looking at forty two housand dolars base up to sixty thsand Canadianfor SDRs and Twentyo thirty percent bonus on top of that, moving away fromincluding closed business as a payment mechanism, eally focused on activities,activities of the SDR can control those are going to tend to be set meetings,book meetings, Sqo Sles, qualified opportunities. We all know that some ofmy best friends are doing point systems that sort of combine a variety ofdifferent activities, but that's the comthat you can expect and then, ifyou're midmarket rap, you know he talked about a midmarket reps anywherefrom sixty five to eightythousand candidadian base, maybe as high as ahundred thousand. That sounds about right, because it's about sixty hzandUS dollars, another fifty percent of that's going to come in the form ofcommission and and then enterprise reps as high as a hundred and eighty maybesize. Two hundred thousand dollars against. You know a three to three anda half million dollar quota. So those are some specific numbers that we cantake away in terms of what's happening in the hiring market. This has beenSam's corner before we go, we want to think our sponsors chorus tot AI andoutreach, and if you want to get in touch with me, you're always free to dothat. If you have feedback on the show find me on twitter, at Sam, F, Jacobs,reon Linkedin at Linkoncom, the word in and then Sam. If Jacobs, of course,wou'd love to hear from you, we hope to see you at on leash and we hope thatyou are nominating yourself or your colleagues for the sales hacker topfifty, because again those guests will be featured on the pot. Now I will seeyou next time.

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