The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 2 years ago

42. The Key to Building Career as Sales Professional w/ Jamie Scarborough, Co-Founder, Sales Talent Agency

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This week on the Sales Hacker podcast, we talk to Jamie Scarborough, Co-Founder of the Sales Talent Agency, one of the largest sales recruitment firms in North America. Jamie’s team worked with over 18,000 sales professionals in 2018 alone and Jamie can share ideas, strategies, and tips on what makes a great salesperson, how to interview, and how to properly manage your career.  

One, two, one, three, three. Hey everybody, it's Sam Jacobs and you're listening to the saleshacker podcast. Today we've got Jamie Scarborough on the pod. Jamie is oneof the CO founders and partners and maybe president. He's got a number ofimportant titles at sales talent agency STA, which is one of the largest recruitingfirms specifically for salespeople in Canada, and he's on the pond to talk abouta you know, they interviewed, they interacted with eighteen thousand different sales professionalsin two thousand and eighteen alone, and they placed over eight hundred folks.So Jamie understands what you need to do when you go into an interview,what you need to do when you're thinking about your career. He also understands, if you're a hiring manager, if you are a sales manager looking tobuild your team, some things that you need to think about. And also, you know, the most of or perhaps one of the most interesting partsof it is Toronto is booming right now. The revenue collective, the organization thatI run, we have six chapters all over the world and one ofthose six is Toronto and it's because it's growing so quickly and specifically for salesteams and really for for great companies. They just build great betb tech inToronto and in Canada. That's been at least my experience, home of shopifyand a bunch of other amazing companies. Now, of course, we wantto thank our sponsors before we deeply dive in. So the first is chorusdot AI. Cours is the leading conversation and tell legends platform for high growthsales teams. It records, transcribes and analyzes business conversations in real time tocoach t reps on how to become top performers. With chorus, more repsmeet quota, new hires ramp faster, leaders become better coaches. Everyone inthe organization can collaborate over the actual voice of the customer. I've used chorus. It's a fantastic product. One of the great features of courus is aplaylist, so you can put together a playlist of like best moments on thesales team or, you know, coaching moments. But it's a really,really powerful platform. The entire category is really special. So that's chorus dotAI. Forward sales hacker to see what they're up to. We also arealways sponsored by outreach, and outreach is the leading sales engagement platform. That'sOutreacht Ioh. Outreach support sales reps by enabling them to humanize their communications atscale. So I suppose that means dropping authentic pieces of information into email communication, as opposed to always looking like a Bot. Now they automate the badpart of the job, that's the soul sucking manual work, and what theydo is provide action oriented tips on what communications are working best. So outreachhas your back, and this particularly important because if you're sending generic emails rightnow, they are not working. Cold called pickup racer declining. It's gettingmore and more difficult to get through to people if you're not personalizing the experience, and that's what outreach helps you do. Now we've got a couple two moreannouncements. March. outreaches running unleas two thousand nineteen. That's the conference. It's going to be the definitive great news sales engagement conference and it's goingto take place March ten through twelve in San Diego. Listeners the pod gethundred dollars off simply. We for entering the Code Sh pod, so hopover to outreach. The website is unleashed dot outreached ioh and use the codesh pod to save a hundred dollars off your ticket. And then, finally, lastly, we start a new tradition at salesacer. It's our top fiftyawards, so we're continuing at this year. Look for those amazing sales people.We're looking for those amazing sales people who elevated the sales profession in twothousand and eighteen. So we ask you podcast listeners to nominate your colleagues oryourselves. It's okay if you nominate yourself. We we may know, but wewon't judge you. There's no it's a judgment free zone, and youknow your salespeople were all salespeople. So we've got to nominate ourselves. Winnerswill be featured on this very podcast. We're going to interview the winners andwe'll receive some other very exciting prizes, including the recognition and praise the salesackercommunity. So get nominating. You can nominate at sales hackercom. Forward slashnominate sales hackercom. Forward slash nominate. Now, without further ado, letus listen to Jamie Scarborough on the sales hacker podcast. Hey, everybody,it is Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the sales hacker podcast. We are really, really excited to have a different type of guest today. We've got JamieScarborough on the POD and Jamie is important for a number of different reasons thatI think we're going to find out, but let me give you his quickbackground. Jamie's a founding partner at sales talent agency, one of North America'sbiggest and most prolific sales recruitment companies, and they've placed more than eight hundredsales professionals in two thousand and eighteen alone own so as CO president, Jamiehas helped more than a thousand employers, from sales for shopify and tell usto Auckland's granger, sap and Castrel, attract and higher top revenue generators.The company has been recognized by Canadian business or its annual growth five hundred listingsfor five years in a row. and Sta founded and runs the Great Canadiansales competition, which is introduced more than a thousand caught, eleven thousand,sorry, college and university students to be to be sales since launching in twothousand and four team. He's also a featured expert for profit guide in theareas of sales leadership and recruitment strategy. So if you if you did notquite pick up, Jamie runs one of...

...the largest and most successful recruiting agenciesspecifically for salespeople in Canada. They're based in Toronto and if you don't knowabout Toronto, the revenue collective is launching a chapter there for very good reason. It's boomtown right now. Toronto is one of the fastest growing markets forspecifically for sales and marketing in North America and I think learning about both thegrowth of that market but also Jamie and his team work with as he ashe mentioned, they placed over eight hundred sales professionals in two thousand and eighteen. So, thinking about that, they must have interacted with thousands and thousandsof sales professionals. They know benchmarking data, they know what's going on in themarket. I think it's going to be a great conversation. So,Jamie, welcome to the show. Thank you, Sam not to chat toyou. We actually interacted with eighteen thousand, so I knew you would have thatnumber. You guys have all of the data. There's what I wantedabout. Where we fall a sales coss like every other sales company, we'vegot at Kpis and Dash Boards and obviously one of the biggest things we followis how many sales people we meet and how many we interact with and howmany we think are really good and how many we can place and how manywe do place. So well, while we're here will tell me some ofthose stats. So what is the specifically interested in, sort of like theratio between what you just said, people that are really good, versus howmany people you meet? What is what is that percentage? Probably fifteen percentof the people we meet we could realistically place. Now. That doesn't meanfifteen percent can get a job. Obviously the standards for a recruitment agency whohas to charge a client, so that introduction is much higher than if theintroduction came from an employee referral or came by apply through an indeed job posting. They're not going to look at the candidate the same way. But fifteenpercent of the people that we meet we could typically place. Now. Someof it is just timing. You know, we don't have the right role forthe right that person at the right time. We have amazing candidate sometimeswho fit all of our requirements, but by the time we've got something forthem it's too late. They've already got something else or they have been promotedor something. But fifteen percent of what of who we meet, we've gota realistic chance of presenting in place, and I think that's that's an amazingstat because at least in the US, you know, the unemployment rates belowfour percent, if I'm not mistaken, and you're saying that eighty five percentof the candidates that you meet you don't think you can find a role for, even if some of them are just timing best. Yeah, so,yeah, absolutely, there's maybe. Again, the standard for our business is reallyhigh. Most of the candidates that we can place have a job already. It's very hard for us to play someone who doesn't have a job.Unfortunately, this is someone we're trying to address. If someone's a certain careerpoint, they're a little less attractive for a company to pay us for what. Clients can be a little myopic in terms of what they're looking for,in terms of cultural fit, as they call it. For their business andwe're going to try and change that perception. We think that's that's an opportunity.But yeah, and some people are just not good enough if they've hadtoo me jumps on their careers. Sales is incredibly measurable. If they haven'thit the targets they need to hit consistently. They may feel they're really good andthey can sometimes get very upset with us for not presenting them two rollsthat they think they would be brilliant at. But the reality is we're in aworld where our client dictates a very, very high bar and we have tojump over it. That makes a lot of sense. We're going todive into a lot of the conversation both, especially around all of the data thatyou've seen, and you know I have so many different questions about personalityprofiles and the advice that you give your clients. But let's focus on youfor a second. You know we can hear the accent, so tell uswhere you're from. I'm at a sound all strike and I'm I'm from EastLondon. So if you think of that twenty minute train ride from Liverpool StreetStation, I can assure you that most of the people listening. Have noidea where Liverpool Street stations, but I actually do know where it is.They how you right. Maybe we're under selling a lot of people have seenthat. I know I grew up in England, but I actually got toCanada when I was nineteen, in nineteen and ninety four and and I've beenhere ever since. I lived in half in Vancouver, half in Toronto.So almost like if for people that don't know the map, that's kind oflike living half in la half in in New York. And got it whenI was nineteen. had been doing you know, had no education, no, no university degrees. Seventy percent of Canadians have some kind of post secondaryeducation. So it was a typically would be a disadvantage, but I cameinto Canada an amazing time. I debate this with my mom a lot aboutthe best time to grow up in terms of the ability to get a job, and I believe that I had an incredible luck advantage because at the ageof nineteen twenty the world wide web is basically just launching and so no oneis really trained on it except for the engineers. So no one in sales. They're not looking for education, they're looking for bright minds and I wasfortunate enough to be able to get a head start. Wow, and whatprompted you to move from London to Toronto and Vancouver, to move to Canadain the first place? Well, I...

...could growing up in England. Iwould watch all of these great shows like Bay Watch and neighbors and and andnine, O, two, one, Oh, and I'm sitting in thiseast London house in a miserable gray area and less in London. England waswonderful. I go back there all the time. My family still there andI love it, but at that point I didn't. I was like whatam I doing? This beach is around the world, there's places you cango and there's people having showers and we have bathtubs and this all. I'mjust thinking, what am I doing? And so from a very, veryyoung age, all I wanted to do was get out. I was.I left England Very Young, actually around sixteen, and so that gap betweensixteen and Nineteen you were and that you were traveling the world and seeing theworld or or did something as that. That makes you sound much more romanticthan it was. That was it. You know, anther people go andwant to see amazing things. I just wanted literally to go and run allover the place and be chaotic, and that's what I did. I livedin ten of reef was the first place I went to. I went thereon a small vacation with a friend and just tore out my ticket and thencome back for for the summer. That was the first thing, and thenI went from there to Barbados and did the same thing and longer, andthen I went from there to tie them, Malaysia, Indonesia, Australia. That'swhere I get this crazy accent and you may you may have also gottenthe traveling bug from Australia, because this is a very traditional profile for fora lot of the UR SASONA and Vancouver is a very traditional place for themto come too. So then, so when you got to Canada, likehow did you you know that's one thousand nine hundred and ninety four STA as? Obviously not. You know whatever. It is, twenty past years old. Yeah, there to walk us through that path and specifically the path to, you know, starting your own business and what what you were doing beforeand what the impetus was to to become an entrepreneur. I START I gota sales jobs. Obviously when you're traveling like that, and even before thatI always wanted freedom and my whole life that's kind of been my driving force, and so I wanted money earlier I wanted to have enough money where Ididn't have to rely on anybody else, and so I would take jobs.I would work in bars very, very early. I'm very tall and Icould. In England there was a little bit more leniency. So from avery fourteen I was working in pubs, I was working, I was doingpaper out so I was doing selling state knights door to door. I wasworking on a market store selling rugs and carpets. Anythink I could do tomake money I was happy to do just to create a bank roll so thatI had some freedom. And I get to Canada and nineteen, after doingall of that for years and years with out really any idea of what I'mgoing to do. I did not have a corporate bone in my body.I my older sister was very at that point and still but at that pointI felt very accomplished in the corporate world. It didn't feel like me and Ithought I was going to be a writer. So I started writing abook. I finished the book. It was terrible. Boy, I knowit was a horrible book. I still have it somewhere. It makes mecringe whenever I pick it up. Was it fiction? Was it fiction ornon fictional? With the book of it was very selacious and fectional, asfantastic and terrible, and I sent the first couple of chapters to a bunchof advertising agencies and publishing companies to try being editor. Really I didn't thinkI was going to get the book sold. I really, I really didn't thinkit was that good at that time. So I try to be an editoror a writer and I got a job as a junior copywriter within arecruitment advertising agency called T MP. Is Actually called cal at the time,but they're a very familiar with TMPA used to recopire has. So at thetime we'll call an advertising was massive. You got to think this is beforethe Internet. So companies were spending a absolute fortune to advertise jobs, toadvertise their company as a place to work, and so it was a huge business. You you know, if you wanted to advertise a engineering job,you'd spend, you know, thirty, fortyzero dollars on a weekly on aweekly newspaper at in the Troyno Globe a mouth, and my job was towrite those awful ads that were here we grow again and all of those payof things. And I did that for years and got promoted a few timesand they had trouble fitting me into where they thought I could be. II loved working with clients and love working with the team and really enjoyed whatwe were doing. And so a few years in they said would you liketo be a sales person? And at this point I progressed to being acreative director. I was probably twenty five and I said no, I lovethat title, created director. That's fantastic, and they said we're going to makea lot more money and I said well, okay, let's give ita try, and so I gave it a prior got in the sales andabsolutely loved it and TMP ended up owning something called money stuff monstercom, whichwas a huge job board. They're late S and early heard of it andit was massive and I ended up working there as a salesperson. I wassales rap of a year for the multiple years I managed their team and metmy business partner now, who became sales up of the year after after whenI was in that leadership role, and...

...then we decide we're going to starta company and we thought, Hey, you know what we should do?I don't like the job board business because you have can't, you're not youdon't feel like you're solving a problem. You feel too far away from highersand we didn't feel that there was a really good sales recruitment specific company andwe just went we're going to go and do it, and so we startedto two thousand and seven south talent agency. So you've been in business for twelveyears. So how's it going and sort of what have you learned?And tell us about I mean, I was in I kind of know howit's going because I was in your offices last week and it's going amazing.But tell the rest of the audience, you know, about the growth overthe last twelve years and and sort of how the business is doing. Well. It's funny because we went in there. We own this fastest growing list,which always makes me laugh because we're the slowest growing fast growing company I'veever seen. We've got where we're really good company. We got sixty peopleare amazing problem solvers all different career levels. That's what they do every single day. You know, sixty odd percent of our income goes out to salariesand bonuses and commissions, because our product really is people, the people thatsolved the problems for our clients. Every year we've grown own every single quarterwe've grown year over year. We're now at ten million, just a lotover ten million of revenues a year. Any company in the software space thatgot to ten million after eleven years would want to jump off a bridge.But we really happy with it. We love what we do. We wework with some amazing companies. We try and be better all the time.I think what's really excited me about our company is, you know, youstart the business and you go hey, we're going to be the greatest salesrecruitment company ever, and we placed candidates and we were actually doing pretty well. And a few years in we realized actually the candidates were placing and notthat much better than the candidates, that they're higher in themselves. The onlydifferences they're paying a lot more money for them. And so we really weare looked at our business and said we got to figure out what the ingredientsfor a great sales personer is, and we came up with something called DNApro, which is super simple and almost to the point of idiocy, butit is amazing and it is incredibly impactful and every time I talked to asales leader about it there are like, Oh my God, how do wenot been doing this all along? Or is it tell us about it?Well, so you know, there's loads of ways to analyze salespeople, right, you you there's loads of opportunities you can have. The more time youcan spend with a candidate the better. Every employers trying to make great saleshighs, and so we said, okay, well, what are we trying toanalyze, though? What are we actually looking for? And so weasked all of our clients. You know, what do you look for in asales person? And we were finding company within the same company, ifyou put a whiteboard up and said what do you look for in a salesperson, every sales leader would come up with fifty different things and we're like,well, why are you all looking for? For the same ingredients, but saida different way, and we came up with DNA pro. DNA isrelated to their raw talent. So if someone seventeen years of age, orif they're seventy years of age. What is the ingredients that you need tobe really good at sales? And then Pr Oh, Hey, you whatmakes you job ready for this role right now? How can you ramp upquickly? So it's simple. For us with DNA was drive, nature,acumen. Very simple words, but we broke them down in a way thata lot of people hadn't thought of them before. So, for example,drive, everyone would say, yes, a salesperson needs drive, but weoften as leaders, miscategorized drive with ambition. We think that somebody's ambitious, thereforethey're driven. We think that they're loud and aggressive, therefore their driven. But what we found was you needed three things to have drive in theway that we needed it. We needed someone who had a great work ethic. Hey, sales people of the last place to hide, not so muchin the modern era, but at the time we launched, you know,there was a lot of outside sales people who could sit in their car forhours on end if they wanted to. So we need someone who was youknow, had great work ethic, they were accountable to themselves. We neededsomeone who set goals for themselves, as you know, companies set goals forsalespeople all the time, but the best salespeople pretty much ignore those goals.They don't care about quota quotas from mediocre people. They care about the goalsthey set for themselves, which are typically much higher than quota and we wantsomeone who's resilient enough to go through all of the crap you have to gothrough to get to those goals. As a salesperson, you're going to gettold no a ton and you got to be okay with that. Not Acceptit, but be okay with it. So having a good work I think, with the resiliency to be able to get to that goal was a hugething. And so we're always looking for people that have set goals for themselves, depending on what career level they are, it may be in their personal,professional, educational, Athletic Life, and we want to see how hardthat goal was and what they did specifically to bust through that wall, topunch through that wall to get to that goal. So that was drive.Okay, well, that was fantastic. Then we said, well, drivesnot enough because pay you can, a serial killer can have drive. Weneed someone whoo's got a great amount of...

...nature. What we refer to asnature is emotional intelligence. You can call it empathy if you want to.We debate often whether there is empathy, but emotional intelligence is critical for asalesperson. You're going to be dealing with people all the time, different kindsof people, different personality types, different career levels, different influence levels,and you need to be able to understand where they're coming from. You needto be able to have a conversation with them in a way that makes senseto them. And then, finally, you need acumen. We're in aworld where we want challenges, we want solution. Sales people, we wantconsultants. We problem solved as a salespeople now, and so we need someonewho's bright and curious. They don't have to be a jeopardy champion, theyjust have to have a bright, curious mind where they're going to become anexpert something. If you think about the best challenges their experts, they're notchallenging just because their decks they're they're actually challenging because they know what they're talkingabout and the client may not, happen, may have a problem that they don'teven recognize yet, and that salesperson is going to help them figure thatout because they know it. They learn more about the sales process, theylearn more about the competition, they learn more about the sales the client andwhat they do and how they do it and what challenges they face, andthey are sponges for information. So that's just the DNA side and you cankind of see that if you start digging into that, you can get reallypassionate about not just what it is but how to find that in someone.Yeah, I mean, that's that's actually the question. The mean. Andso, first of all, one common is to your point, exactly toyour point, like a lot of these qualities are just you know, alot of people are talking about them but using slightly different words. I havea question. You know about drive and about resiliency. Do you have adegree of difficulties scale when you're asking a question of a candidate, you know, you say what's the hardest thing you've ever done, and you sort ofhave a framework where if it wasn't quite hard enough in your opinion, thanthat disqualifies them. How do you test for drive? Why? So everyrole. So if you think of DNA as dim ast switches, right,so some roles require a lot more drive then others. If you're selling stateknives door to door, you're going to need a drive on eleven, whereasif you're working for a company as an account manager, your drive level maynot need to be quite as high. It doesn't me, it doesn't meanit can be a too, but it doesn't have to be quite as high. So a lot of the time we're analyzing, based on a specific role, what the requirements are, as opposed to whether they could be good atall. But when we're looking at drive, the question we always ask ourselves iswhy is that good? You know, for example, if you get someonejunior in our company with the first few weeks of their job is literallyjust to analyze DNA of hundreds of candidates. That's what their only job is tointerview analyze so that we can kind of help them direct their questions,because it's not a same question every single time. You've got to try anddig in and figure out what was hard for them. And it doesn't meanjust because they have drive that they'll be good in sales, for example,there's loads of people that have an amazing wheel when it comes to exercise.Maybe it's a triathlete, but they don't have they haven't prioritized work in thesame way they've prioritize their health, the fitness in in that way. Sotheir drive is being executed completely. Their goals are completely related to their athleticachievement. What we've got to do is not only find out do they havedrive, but is it directed in a way that is useful for us andour clients? And, would you say the directing a usefully means, frankly, I mean this is something I've always learned when I was going to goingthrough discussions about assessment and assessing personality profile. is they like to make money andthey're willing to admit that. Is that? Is that a framework ora test that that you use when you're talking to candidates? I think that'sa really great question you want to I just said about myself I want tomake money. The question is why and how much right, because what you'retrying to do. So let's say, for example, if it's someone atthe beginning of their career, I want to make money, I want toknow what does that mean to you and what are you prepared to do toget it? Doesn't make in money mean fortyzero a year consistent income, ordoes it mean you want to get to a hundred thousand dollars in the nexttwo years, in which case that's kind of interesting. Now that doesn't that'sjust ambition. Again, I've now got to align that with the analysis ofwhether they have what it takes to to meet that ambition, the work ethicand the resiliency. But that's the goal they've got. It's an interesting goal. That does help me align it and say, yeah, you've got theright goal. Now someone's a bit more Seenia, their goal related to moneycan become completely different, almost debilitated, where they become golden handcuffs and they'remore focused on a consistent, big income than they are about chasing something muchbigger. It's a great point. There's brightness same because this just even thisconversation, you can see it's it's a it's a it's so fluid. Youknow, if I knew exactly how to I identify driving every single person ahundred percent of the time, I would...

...be way why. I'd be rich, rich, rich block in an amazing way. Now, why is interestingfor me is that what I say two employers all the time and they haveto keep in mind that as an employer, your job is to take risks,but it's to analyze and mitigate bad risk. Right you hire and someoneis like bedding on is bedding in poker. You have you can't win unless youbear, but you can only lose if you bet. And same asin recruitment and employment. You can't get bigger, you can't get more moneyunless you hire people. But the only way you can make bad highs isby hiring people. So your job now is not to be right, it'sto mitigate as much risk as possible. There is no successful leader out therethat hasn't made mistakes, including me, lots and lots of them. Idid analysis last year. We'd hide a hundred and twenty eight people in ourentire history and I try to put them in three buckets as to should Inever have hired them, should I have hired them and they did a greatjob and that was awesome, or could I've done a better job as acompany? But every employer, every leader, needs to be analyzed in that andtrying to get closer and closer and closer to the route of risk mitigationand risk assessment. Yeah, and so, I mean, I agree completely thatI have, I said, hiring as a probabilistic exercise. That's howyou have to understand it. It's a lone here employed if if you're nothiring at all. And also it shouldn't keep I guess well this I'd loveyour reaction to this statement, which is the lack of a perfect hiring processshould not keep you from making hires. had. What do you think aboutthat? Well, of caught absolutely first. Yes. So then what is aperfect time process? You know, there's amazing books out there. Let'slook at something like top grading, which is a really interesting way of analyzeand ever of interview in a lot of companies have used that very successful inthe past, but it is flawed as well. Everything be flawed. Thereality of recruitment is you could yell out of your window who wants a job. Someone could lift up their hand and that could theoretically be your best heartyou've ever made. It could be. Eretically, now the probability is low. So the better you can get at recruiting is o. that's awesome,but we do notice that as companies go from early stages where the leader ofthe company, who's got a real good pulse on what they want, theleader of the company who's got that pulse and what they want. As theyget further and further away from the recruiting process, the company that can oftengo through some challenges because the people who've they're put in a much more stringerrecruitment process, but the people in that process aren't as close to the solution. HMM, that's really interesting. And get past that and then you getthe companies that are really big who, frankly, are just doing a horriblejob because they've let their their operations HR team take control of it in away that is impossible for you to make good, good decisions as a leader. You're making decisions that are holistic, that are designs to weed out theworst, not to get the best. I want to ask you a questionabout sort of career pathing for for people you know the world has changed somuch. What advice when you've got all of these young, you know,sales professionals and you're again, you met eighteen thousand last year. What's theadvice that you're giving them specifically about managing their career? Do you think?Have the rules changed? Have they evolved? Are they still the same. Andwhat do you see? You know the common mistakes people make as theylook out, you know, five to ten years over the course of theircareer. Well, the more we run, as you said earlier that we runthe biggest student competition in the country, which is designed to get young peopleinto sales in the first place. And this year, then you're five. We got four thousand people from eighty campuses across the country who are alltalking about southes. That doesn't mean they're going to go into sales, butthey're talking about it in a way that they wouldn't have done six years ago, and so we talked to them a lot about career path and ideas andwhat you know, how do you manage a career? And again, itdepends on your level. But let's talk about someone early stages. The firstthing you've got to say is, well, what do you need? What isyour hierarchy of needs? You know maslow's hierarchy of need. Course,walk about hierarchy of needs a lot, which is what is the first thingyou need is a salesperson. And what they often forget is the value proposition. You know, you can get so attracted to these bright and shiny companiesthat are getting a lot of money invested in them, but they actually,as a salesperson, incredibly hard to sell because they don't have something that reallyis unique and compelling. They don't have proof of it. And so thefirst thing a salesperson, you got to look for when you're making a decisionon a roll is do you have something that has an audience and can youcommunicate it, that factor, to that audience in a way that is compelling? And then you go well, is there a manager or leader, acoach or an infrastructure that set up for me to continue to develop? Youknow, obviously, if you're a little...

...later in your career, you maywant more autonomy and no development. You're you're a gun for hire, butearly on you don't know anything. You know, I think about myself asa salesperson in my early days in Berb sales and I was absolutely useless.I still make sales, but a rate that was so much less efficient andeffective than it would be at this stage of my career. And so forme, first of all, it's the biggest mistake people make is they jumpedto a shiny object, they're inner path, instead of staying in that path.Someone else comes along a company like mine and they wave hey, hey, hey, look at this. You've been there for eight months, ninemonths, a year, look what you could be doing, look how muchthey'll pay you, and you make that move. And as much as youwould think as a recruitment agency we would encourage that, we don't at all. We feel like every career a jump should be a three year minimum couragejump so that you've had a chance to learn something, prove something and geta really good reference and advocate from your employer. And so that's interesting.I mean I would bet that most you know sales professionals, particularly early intheir career, are not staying places for for three years. Are there?I would imagine that from your perspective it doesn't hurt them quite as much asit may be used to twenty or thirty years ago. But you know,it strikes me just that the act of putting the stones together, that thepath, assembling the path that becomes a curse, just much less transparent topeople in terms of what should they do at then it's ever been before,I guess. I mean, I don't know if you agree. Well,yeah, I think that the average tenure of a salesperson. We know theaverage ten you of a sales post is much, much less than that.I mean we're in a really hyper fast as you said earlier, Toronto isa growing market. If you look at Boston, if you look at Seattle, if you look at Houston, San Francisco, New York, similar marketswhere there is a huge amount of new companies that are coming up, thatare being incredibly well funded. The are looking for really good talent and thattalent whole is scarce, and so it is really attractive to make those moves. When I say three years, that is an ideal. That certainly isnot what's happening. Yeah, yeah, when you so we've talked sort offrom the candid perspective. When you're coaching employers. You know, you mentionedMP and you know I think employer branding as more important than ever. CertainlyI worked at them, mews, so they would reinforce that that idea.But you know what, are you coaching the employers, the companies, whenthey're trying to put to get? You mentioned that there's a bunch of flawsin the in the recruiting process. What do you think is the perfect recruitingprocess and how? How should a company design itself in order to get thebest possible talent? So we have an answer for this. I'm going tojust go through our full processor. I love it. The answers are good, perfect. So the first thing I want an employer to think about iswhat is a good higher? Right, because oftentimes when you say hey,what's a great high you've made, they'll tell you someone in the last sixseven months who they love, who's doing a good job. But actually,if you think about a great higher, someone who's hit numbers, being acultural contributor to help you grow as a business for an extended period of time. Whatever that period of time is depends on your business, on how quicklyyou can monetize them, how quickly they can ramp up. If it's asale cycle of eighteen months or more, if they're not there for three years, there's no chance they've been affective. But and if it's a really fastout cycle, they could have been really effective in eighteen months. But thefirst thing you've got to do is say, well, what is a great higher? And now you've got to say, well, why do we not sometimesmake great highst what is the most obvious reason and the first thing thatemployer will say to you as well, we chose him incorrectly, I shouldhave chose a different person. And what we will typically say is, yeah, that's one of them. But there's two other reasons that are much bigger. Those reasons are that you didn't have good people to choose from. Youdidn't find an attract them, so you ended up choosing high, lower highrisk at highres that you shouldn't have chosen because you hadn't got low risk hiresin your put and your pipeline. And the other one is that you hada good hire, you didn't equipment for success. You're blaming all of theirfailure on on them, when actually you need to take a much bigger lookat yourself. So we come up with summit called face face, find,attract, choose equip and every one of our biggest clients we try and doit with every client, but it's obviously so we're much more transactional with some. We look at that, find a tract, choose equipment. We tryand analyze each of those areas and say, okay, how are you finding candidates? How are you basically getting in front of people that would have aconversation with you. They've got the skill set, basically, you're looking forand they want to have a conversation with you. What are you doing interms of employer for us? What are you doing in terms of inbound leads? What are you doing in terms of outbound networking or head hunting or whateveryou call it? Then you say,...

...well, now that you've have inthese conversations, that's a that's great, but good candidates have choice. Howcan you attract those good can it is to your business. You need toknow what those good candidates want and you need to be understanding that a pingpong tables not going to do it. You know, I go to somany companies now. Now, this is kind of a Cliche, but we'llgo into that company in the first thing they show us when they talk abouttheir employee experience is a game's room or is a kitchen that's got free food, and it's like, well, listen, that may appeal to some people,but it doesn't appeal to good sales people. They can pay for theirown stuff, damned straight. Hey, and I am against through food.And then we go to find a tract. Now you got to choose them,use that DNA pro process. That doesn't mean that solve your problem.It's just the ingredients. But now let's look at how you're going to identifythose ingredients and then, and I'll get to that propart later if you wantto. And then the last part is equip okay, you done all thiswork. You've lifted up all the rocks to find them. You've worked reallyhard to build an environment that tracks them. You've looked to your condensates, you'vedone everything. You've gone and you've analyzed and based on DNA pro tochoose them. You've done all kinds of panel interviewing, top grade in assignment'sassessments. And now you've got to equip them for success. You've got toput them in a spot where that maslow's hierarchy of sales needs is actually provided. You've got to keep looking it over and over again and say what dothey need that they don't have right now to be the best version of themselvesso that they're not only performing at high rate but they're also happy be here? Most people don't want to jump from job to job. They do itbecause they're running out of in a perceived roadway where they are. It thanksa lot of sense. Yeah, I mean I feel like even just thewhat what kind of advice do you give companies around employer branding? Are youtelling them higher t MP, do big videos? You know, what's what'ssort of the fundamentals from that perspective, Justin when we're thinking about a tract. Yeah, we talked about being authentic again. I'll I try and beagnostic in terms of referrals. You know, like who do you refer someone to? You know, I find TMP. I work for four years. Itdepends what team you get. Like any advertising agency. You know,if the team that some compan advertiser advertising companies of any kind coming with istheir best team, and then once you're there for a year, do youstill have their best team? But theoretically you need to. However you doit, whether it when it be outsourcing it ends or internally, you needto say what is our experience? We talked about it as an employer brand. We talked about as a culture. What is our experience and how canwe communicate that so that the people that would really enjoy this experience know ofit, can and can interact with it? We try and get them to bemuch, much more authentic. I'll give you an example right now.One of the things that every candidate does, ideally they should before they make adecision, if they go into glass door and they look at all ofthe glass door reviews of that company. Well, who puts a review?What employee puts a review on our store? There are twos, mostly than thedisgruntled, negative employee. That's been my experience. That's the first one. WHO's the other one? The well, the manager posing as a as amidlevel employee, the HR person, the manager, raditus family. WHO'sgoing? This is the greatest place I've ever worked out. I would neverwork anywhere else again. If if someone gave me a hundred more, Iwould. There's no ways. Yes, there's two things. So so we'vegot this glass door which there is an interesting idea but theory, but inpractice is actually a very flawed analysis. So you go, Oh, well, why? You need to not let them be so reliant on that analysis. Give your candidates more transparency into what you do really well and what youdon't do really well. Do X interviews on camera with people that leave theorganization and let their words stand. Don't let it be phony. have anopportunity to really tell your story. What do you do well? What don'tyou do well? What are you improving? You know? How do your managerslead? What is their goal? How are they measured? When apromotions made? How are they made? Is it a meritocracy? If so, how can you prove it? It's exactly the same you. We putso much effort now into what we sell as a company, but the realityis without the right sounds professionals, we are in a really tough spot.We need to put as much thought into how to communicate our value proposition tothe employees before they get there, and it's not as easy as a niceadd from t MP, even right. Yeah, he can definitely help.Don't get me wrong. I Hey, listen, I did great work thereand I know some amazing people, but if you expecting advertising to solve yourproblem, you'll get people coming in who leave three, six, nine monthslater because it wasn't true. You got to get to the root of whatyou do really well, figure out what...

...you do poorly and look for waysto mitigate those challenges. If you know you can't pay as much as themarket, you got to be a little bit more thoughtful about the candidate pollthat you go from and not try and get people from the same pool.Be a little smarter. You have to look at all of the little thingsthat you do really well. And you know we're in a world where thereare some beast companies out there that have a lot more money to spend.So if you're hot thinking that the only way you're going to get tamed candidatesis by outspending you, you don't have a lot of bullets in your gun. You're absolutely right. And also the well, you know, you justhave to decide where do you want emphasize, and maybe maybe pay as one ofthe areas that you want emphasize. But then again, you're you're goingto the deep water with the people with pools of capital, like, youknow, facebook and sales worse, and all those folks stick because a lotof the employers will say, yeah, but Tim makes that money and he'sfine, and you go well, Hey, Tim hasn't been recruited enough yet.Tim's and anomaly. If you if you can survive building your business onTim, good for you, but you may need sixty of those, ahundred of those, two hundred of those, and you're in a tough spot.You're absolutely right. So we're almost at the end actually, of ourtime together. But there's one last topic going to talk about because we lovegiving sort of practical, actionable, market driven insight. So you're in themarket all the time talking to SDRs and account executives. You're in Toronto.Walk us through some of the numbers. What are the numbers that you're seeingfor base salary? Are we still seeing, you know, account executive at leastmid markets, ass account executives in New York, you know, marketsabout six thousand and sixty. So sixtyzero base, sixtyzero bonus. The quoteis probably x the the Ote on the commission. Target SCRS are different.What are you saying, Jamie, in terms of compensation, so that thepeople listening can know if they're, you know, making them out that they'resupposed to, if they're overpaid underpaid, and what the frameworks are? Ithink it's a really timely question. Obviously, the first question we ever get askedby an employers what should we pay? That is a question that we've triedto answer over the years with a salary guides. We've got a definitivesalary guide, but actually that God is just vastly out of date now,and what we've found is that every salary guide is out date. How wetaken that information is incredibly flawed, and so we're actually in the process ofbuilding something right now called our last one hundred, and I lost one hundredis essentially an algorithm and it takes that lost one hundred placements, whether itbe holistically or in specific the regions or with specific job titles or role descriptions, and you can actually say the last one hundred placements what the salary was, what the total ink come was, what a word cloud of what benefitswere, and you could also see that down to the last ten placements.So you can start to get a real time. It will update all thetime because every placement we make will be added to that data. So thelast one hundred is always changing. In the last ten is always changing.How do we get our hands on the last one hundred? This is soundsamazing. We're going to be launching it in the next before the end ofqueue one we will have launched it and I would love for you to helpus analyze it. Sam obviously this is something that was passionate for you andI would love your help with that. Great I will definitely get you onthat team. But so, theoretically we've got something that we've got to finish. But is a really good answer for this. Let's look at it practically. It as you know, in major markets around North America real estate hasjumped massively in the last few years, in the last ten, fifteen years. Income compensation has not typically matched that and it was pushing at the seamsin the last few years and it has exploded now. The last two yearshave had massive, massive increases in the income and the salaries and the marketexpectations of candidates and what they're getting out there. For example, if you'rea new graduate now, just two or three years ago you could have comeout in a sales role for thirty six thousand dollar salary. Of Forty FiveTho, you're not going to get anywhere close to that anymore. You know, if a new graduate is not coming into a role in this it's fortytwo to Sixtyzero. There's new graduate for an str new graduate for an strI remember. These are con million dollars or US dies dollar Sam. Sowhenever a poking about this money right now. We do a lot of placements inthe US by don't have quite as much of a knowledge of that.So I'm going to use Canadian dollars. You've got to take thirty percent differenceon that are good. So let's say forty two to six S, whatyou mentioned. So let's say Fiftyzero as the midpoint, and that's base.That's a base salary and typically it will be fifty. For an STR Bedr, the the base salary is going to be higher and you're going to haveanother twenty thirty percent in commissions or bonuses. Once you get to that AE range, you're going to get in more like fifty, fifty percent, fiftypercent, fifty percent. Yeah, and now and that AE range you couldthere's a really, really wide range. Again depends on the industry, butlet's stay within the text base for the time being. You're definitely now lookingat a very minimum of six K base and we've seen a he's in thelast year going for over a hundred eighty,...

...hundred eighty base. And again itdepends on what their expectation is, the expectation of what they're going tobe bringing into a company. If they're working on software deals that are millionsand millions of dollars and expected to do three huge deals a year. Onehundred and eighty base with a three hundred and sixty on target is absolutely inthe realm of possibility, whereas if you're looking at something that the south cycleis more likely six months, the average deal size, the annual revenues,the at the annual revenues of a company all the at the price point wouldbe twentyzero dollars. You're probably looking closer from sixty five to eighty five Kbase with a non target income of one thirty, two hundred and seventy.Yeah, Great. Last question specifically on str is. Okay if you don'tknow the answer, but we talked a lot about str camp plans. Youknow, do you see commonalities there? You know, the twenty thirty percent? Is it typically just opportunities generated or meeting set? Do you see asignificant percentage of the time that the SDR is getting, you know, onepercent of the closed business that they originate? You know, just talk to usa little bit about that, because it's a it's a topic of comment. That's question. We all know that the the the sales process in softwaresince predictable, where revenue came out in two thousand and eleven. The salespro the sales processes changed dramatically for almost every company, but especially in thesoftware space. Everyone's taking chunks of the sales process. Very few people aredoing full sales cycle. When it's full sale cycle, you can be measuredcompletely on revenue, and this fine. You know you you open in therevenue, your close in the revenue when it comes to an str or media. But let's talk about an St let's talk about an outbound sales professional onlyresponsible for essentially getting it to the point where in a qualifying to the pointwhere an a is taken it over to give them it based on revenues.Actual deal closing can be quite frustrating for them because they have so little controlover that actual deal closing and it's also so much later than when they wereinvolved in the process. They could be involved in the process eight months beforeanything happens. So what we're finding more and Moise people being paid for activityand quality activity as opposed to revenues, being paid for the book meeting asopposed to being paid. They may get a trial in number based on therevenues, but it won't be just revenues. It will be based on quality activities, books, meetings, books meetings to convert into quality sales processes,as opposed to just the revenue that's generated from it. got it very good, Jamie. It's been incredible to have you on the show. We didnot get, unfortunately, to figuring out what pro is. Why don't youtell us very quickly what? Yeah, exactly that. It's that and andwe're going to have you on Friday fundamentals in a couple days and that's whenwe're going to I'm going to ask you one question, which is, youknow, what's the number one piece of advice you can give people going intoan interview? But before we part ways this time it would be great.So if I'm a person in Toronto or I'm considering moving to Canada or I'mjust a sales professional, I want to get in touch with you. Iguess the first question is a is that okay? Are you open to peoplefrom that are listening to the podcast reaching out to you? Absolutely hot andnot just okay. I'm encourage. If you ever want to reach out tome, you can obviously reach out to me on Linkedin and I'll be happyto point in the right direction. Very good, very good, and anyparting words or life motto or Guiding Principles that that you want to share beforebefore we hit the road on this conversation? We have a very clichehade model,that sales talent agency, which is the way you do anythink is theway you do everything, and so we try and explode. We try andtake everything we do seriously, even when it should be laughed at. Wetry and take every day as if it is something that's really important, everycurrent problem. We understand that we're not here in cancer. Most companies aren't. So there is a certain sense of humor you have to have in business. But we take every problem that we get really, really seriously and andand try and run it as hard as we possibly can and be the salespeople, be the business people that we want to clients to hire. Ilove it. I love it, Jamie. Thank you so much for joining uson the salesacker podcast. Folks, it's the spelling did. The lastname is scaar Br Bo Rou gh scarborough, and he's on Linkedin. So ifyou want to reach out to him on Linkedin, and get in touch. He'll be responsive and if you're a candidate, that'll be great and ifyou're a company looking to higher sta, that'll be great too. That Iget that correctly, Jimmie solutely perfect. So thanks so much for joining andand we'll talk to you on Friday. Look forward to it. Everybody.It's Sam Jacobs and this is Sam's corner. We really enjoyed speaking with Jamie Scarboroughand on Friday fundamentals, he's going to have some really great insights onhow to prepare for an interview. I took away a couple things that we'veheard repeatedly on the POD. They STA...

...sales talent agency. That the companythat Jamie runs. They've developed this thing called DNA pro. We didn't figureout what pro stands for because we were having so much fun talking, butwe did figure out that DNA stands for drive, nature and acumen. Wetalk a lot about qualities that make a great salesperson. I want to focuson on drive and you know he has his own way of framing it andwe've talked about the will to sell on the podcast and commitment, responsibility,outlook and accountability and desire. That was the other one. But Jamie framesthat is drive. It's not just ambition. So his point is it's not justabout you know, wanting something big for yourself, it's what are youwilling to do to get that? In my world I call that commitment andhis world he calls that drive and resiliency. But we recognize that it's just important. What are you willing to do to achieve the goals and why areyou willing to do it and what proof do you have that you've done that? Also, echoing Danny Hertzberg and a bunch of other people, goal setting. They want to know, hiring managers want to know what are the goalsthat you've set and and how can you demonstrate that you've achieved them? Andwhy are those goals interesting to you? Why do they motivate you? Whydo they challenge you? So I think that's something else that's interesting. Now, finally, we talked a little bit about comp remember to adjust for Canadiandollars, but in the Canadian market right out of school we're looking at fortytwozero base up to Sixtyzero Canadian for SDRs and twenty to thirty percent bonus ontop of that. Moving away from including closed business as a payment mechanism.Early focused on activities, activities of the SDR can control. Those are goingto tend to be set meetings, book meetings, S Qo, sales,qualified opportunities. We all know that. Some of my best friends are doingpoint systems that sort of combine a variety of different activities, but that's thecompet you can expect. And then if you're a mid market rep, youknow he talked about mid market reps anywhere from sixty five to eighty thousand cannadianbase, maybe as high as a hundred thousand. That sounds about right becauseit's about sixty thousand US dollars. Another fifty percent of that's going to comein the form of commission and and then enterprise reps as high as a hundredand eighty maybe sighs two hundred thousand dollars against, you know, a threeto three and a half million dollar quota. So those are some specific numbers thatwe can take away in terms of what's happening in the hiring market.This has been Sam's corner. Before we go, we want to thank oursponsors, chorus DOT AI and outreach, and if you want to get intouch with me. You're always free to do that. If you have feedbackon the show, find me on twitter at Sam f Jacobs, around Linkedin, at Linkedincom the word in and then Sam f Jacobs. Of course we'dlove to hear from you. We hope to see you at unleash and wehope that you are nominating yourself or your colleagues for the sales hacker top fifty, because again those guests will be featured on the pot now. I willsee you next time.

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