The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

42. The Key to Building Career as Sales Professional w/ Jamie Scarborough, Co-Founder, Sales Talent Agency

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This week on the Sales Hacker podcast, we talk to Jamie Scarborough, Co-Founder of the Sales Talent Agency, one of the largest sales recruitment firms in North America. Jamie’s team worked with over 18,000 sales professionals in 2018 alone and Jamie can share ideas, strategies, and tips on what makes a great salesperson, how to interview, and how to properly manage your career.  

One, two, one, three, three. Hey everybody, it's Sam Jacobs and you're listening to the sales hacker podcast. Today we've got Jamie Scarborough on the pod. Jamie is one of the CO founders and partners and maybe president. He's got a number of important titles at sales talent agency STA, which is one of the largest recruiting firms specifically for salespeople in Canada, and he's on the pond to talk about a you know, they interviewed, they interacted with eighteen thousand different sales professionals in two thousand and eighteen alone, and they placed over eight hundred folks. So Jamie understands what you need to do when you go into an interview, what you need to do when you're thinking about your career. He also understands, if you're a hiring manager, if you are a sales manager looking to build your team, some things that you need to think about. And also, you know, the most of or perhaps one of the most interesting parts of it is Toronto is booming right now. The revenue collective, the organization that I run, we have six chapters all over the world and one of those six is Toronto and it's because it's growing so quickly and specifically for sales teams and really for for great companies. They just build great betb tech in Toronto and in Canada. That's been at least my experience, home of shopify and a bunch of other amazing companies. Now, of course, we want to thank our sponsors before we deeply dive in. So the first is chorus dot AI. Cours is the leading conversation and tell legends platform for high growth sales teams. It records, transcribes and analyzes business conversations in real time to coach t reps on how to become top performers. With chorus, more reps meet quota, new hires ramp faster, leaders become better coaches. Everyone in the organization can collaborate over the actual voice of the customer. I've used chorus. It's a fantastic product. One of the great features of courus is a playlist, so you can put together a playlist of like best moments on the sales team or, you know, coaching moments. But it's a really, really powerful platform. The entire category is really special. So that's chorus dot AI. Forward sales hacker to see what they're up to. We also are always sponsored by outreach, and outreach is the leading sales engagement platform. That's Outreacht Ioh. Outreach support sales reps by enabling them to humanize their communications at scale. So I suppose that means dropping authentic pieces of information into email communication, as opposed to always looking like a Bot. Now they automate the bad part of the job, that's the soul sucking manual work, and what they do is provide action oriented tips on what communications are working best. So outreach has your back, and this particularly important because if you're sending generic emails right now, they are not working. Cold called pickup racer declining. It's getting more and more difficult to get through to people if you're not personalizing the experience, and that's what outreach helps you do. Now we've got a couple two more announcements. March. outreaches running unleas two thousand nineteen. That's the conference. It's going to be the definitive great news sales engagement conference and it's going to take place March ten through twelve in San Diego. Listeners the pod get hundred dollars off simply. We for entering the Code Sh pod, so hop over to outreach. The website is unleashed dot outreached ioh and use the code sh pod to save a hundred dollars off your ticket. And then, finally, lastly, we start a new tradition at salesacer. It's our top fifty awards, so we're continuing at this year. Look for those amazing sales people. We're looking for those amazing sales people who elevated the sales profession in two thousand and eighteen. So we ask you podcast listeners to nominate your colleagues or yourselves. It's okay if you nominate yourself. We we may know, but we won't judge you. There's no it's a judgment free zone, and you know your salespeople were all salespeople. So we've got to nominate ourselves. Winners will be featured on this very podcast. We're going to interview the winners and we'll receive some other very exciting prizes, including the recognition and praise the salesacker community. So get nominating. You can nominate at sales hackercom. Forward slash nominate sales hackercom. Forward slash nominate. Now, without further ado, let us listen to Jamie Scarborough on the sales hacker podcast. Hey, everybody, it is Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the sales hacker podcast. We are really, really excited to have a different type of guest today. We've got Jamie Scarborough on the POD and Jamie is important for a number of different reasons that I think we're going to find out, but let me give you his quick background. Jamie's a founding partner at sales talent agency, one of North America's biggest and most prolific sales recruitment companies, and they've placed more than eight hundred sales professionals in two thousand and eighteen alone own so as CO president, Jamie has helped more than a thousand employers, from sales for shopify and tell us to Auckland's granger, sap and Castrel, attract and higher top revenue generators. The company has been recognized by Canadian business or its annual growth five hundred listings for five years in a row. and Sta founded and runs the Great Canadian sales competition, which is introduced more than a thousand caught, eleven thousand, sorry, college and university students to be to be sales since launching in two thousand and four team. He's also a featured expert for profit guide in the areas of sales leadership and recruitment strategy. So if you if you did not quite pick up, Jamie runs one of...

...the largest and most successful recruiting agencies specifically for salespeople in Canada. They're based in Toronto and if you don't know about Toronto, the revenue collective is launching a chapter there for very good reason. It's boomtown right now. Toronto is one of the fastest growing markets for specifically for sales and marketing in North America and I think learning about both the growth of that market but also Jamie and his team work with as he as he mentioned, they placed over eight hundred sales professionals in two thousand and eighteen. So, thinking about that, they must have interacted with thousands and thousands of sales professionals. They know benchmarking data, they know what's going on in the market. I think it's going to be a great conversation. So, Jamie, welcome to the show. Thank you, Sam not to chat to you. We actually interacted with eighteen thousand, so I knew you would have that number. You guys have all of the data. There's what I wanted about. Where we fall a sales coss like every other sales company, we've got at Kpis and Dash Boards and obviously one of the biggest things we follow is how many sales people we meet and how many we interact with and how many we think are really good and how many we can place and how many we do place. So well, while we're here will tell me some of those stats. So what is the specifically interested in, sort of like the ratio between what you just said, people that are really good, versus how many people you meet? What is what is that percentage? Probably fifteen percent of the people we meet we could realistically place. Now. That doesn't mean fifteen percent can get a job. Obviously the standards for a recruitment agency who has to charge a client, so that introduction is much higher than if the introduction came from an employee referral or came by apply through an indeed job posting. They're not going to look at the candidate the same way. But fifteen percent of the people that we meet we could typically place. Now. Some of it is just timing. You know, we don't have the right role for the right that person at the right time. We have amazing candidate sometimes who fit all of our requirements, but by the time we've got something for them it's too late. They've already got something else or they have been promoted or something. But fifteen percent of what of who we meet, we've got a realistic chance of presenting in place, and I think that's that's an amazing stat because at least in the US, you know, the unemployment rates below four percent, if I'm not mistaken, and you're saying that eighty five percent of the candidates that you meet you don't think you can find a role for, even if some of them are just timing best. Yeah, so, yeah, absolutely, there's maybe. Again, the standard for our business is really high. Most of the candidates that we can place have a job already. It's very hard for us to play someone who doesn't have a job. Unfortunately, this is someone we're trying to address. If someone's a certain career point, they're a little less attractive for a company to pay us for what. Clients can be a little myopic in terms of what they're looking for, in terms of cultural fit, as they call it. For their business and we're going to try and change that perception. We think that's that's an opportunity. But yeah, and some people are just not good enough if they've had too me jumps on their careers. Sales is incredibly measurable. If they haven't hit the targets they need to hit consistently. They may feel they're really good and they can sometimes get very upset with us for not presenting them two rolls that they think they would be brilliant at. But the reality is we're in a world where our client dictates a very, very high bar and we have to jump over it. That makes a lot of sense. We're going to dive into a lot of the conversation both, especially around all of the data that you've seen, and you know I have so many different questions about personality profiles and the advice that you give your clients. But let's focus on you for a second. You know we can hear the accent, so tell us where you're from. I'm at a sound all strike and I'm I'm from East London. So if you think of that twenty minute train ride from Liverpool Street Station, I can assure you that most of the people listening. Have no idea where Liverpool Street stations, but I actually do know where it is. They how you right. Maybe we're under selling a lot of people have seen that. I know I grew up in England, but I actually got to Canada when I was nineteen, in nineteen and ninety four and and I've been here ever since. I lived in half in Vancouver, half in Toronto. So almost like if for people that don't know the map, that's kind of like living half in la half in in New York. And got it when I was nineteen. had been doing you know, had no education, no, no university degrees. Seventy percent of Canadians have some kind of post secondary education. So it was a typically would be a disadvantage, but I came into Canada an amazing time. I debate this with my mom a lot about the best time to grow up in terms of the ability to get a job, and I believe that I had an incredible luck advantage because at the age of nineteen twenty the world wide web is basically just launching and so no one is really trained on it except for the engineers. So no one in sales. They're not looking for education, they're looking for bright minds and I was fortunate enough to be able to get a head start. Wow, and what prompted you to move from London to Toronto and Vancouver, to move to Canada in the first place? Well, I...

...could growing up in England. I would watch all of these great shows like Bay Watch and neighbors and and and nine, O, two, one, Oh, and I'm sitting in this east London house in a miserable gray area and less in London. England was wonderful. I go back there all the time. My family still there and I love it, but at that point I didn't. I was like what am I doing? This beach is around the world, there's places you can go and there's people having showers and we have bathtubs and this all. I'm just thinking, what am I doing? And so from a very, very young age, all I wanted to do was get out. I was. I left England Very Young, actually around sixteen, and so that gap between sixteen and Nineteen you were and that you were traveling the world and seeing the world or or did something as that. That makes you sound much more romantic than it was. That was it. You know, anther people go and want to see amazing things. I just wanted literally to go and run all over the place and be chaotic, and that's what I did. I lived in ten of reef was the first place I went to. I went there on a small vacation with a friend and just tore out my ticket and then come back for for the summer. That was the first thing, and then I went from there to Barbados and did the same thing and longer, and then I went from there to tie them, Malaysia, Indonesia, Australia. That's where I get this crazy accent and you may you may have also gotten the traveling bug from Australia, because this is a very traditional profile for for a lot of the UR SASONA and Vancouver is a very traditional place for them to come too. So then, so when you got to Canada, like how did you you know that's one thousand nine hundred and ninety four STA as? Obviously not. You know whatever. It is, twenty past years old. Yeah, there to walk us through that path and specifically the path to, you know, starting your own business and what what you were doing before and what the impetus was to to become an entrepreneur. I START I got a sales jobs. Obviously when you're traveling like that, and even before that I always wanted freedom and my whole life that's kind of been my driving force, and so I wanted money earlier I wanted to have enough money where I didn't have to rely on anybody else, and so I would take jobs. I would work in bars very, very early. I'm very tall and I could. In England there was a little bit more leniency. So from a very fourteen I was working in pubs, I was working, I was doing paper out so I was doing selling state knights door to door. I was working on a market store selling rugs and carpets. Anythink I could do to make money I was happy to do just to create a bank roll so that I had some freedom. And I get to Canada and nineteen, after doing all of that for years and years with out really any idea of what I'm going to do. I did not have a corporate bone in my body. I my older sister was very at that point and still but at that point I felt very accomplished in the corporate world. It didn't feel like me and I thought I was going to be a writer. So I started writing a book. I finished the book. It was terrible. Boy, I know it was a horrible book. I still have it somewhere. It makes me cringe whenever I pick it up. Was it fiction? Was it fiction or non fictional? With the book of it was very selacious and fectional, as fantastic and terrible, and I sent the first couple of chapters to a bunch of advertising agencies and publishing companies to try being editor. Really I didn't think I was going to get the book sold. I really, I really didn't think it was that good at that time. So I try to be an editor or a writer and I got a job as a junior copywriter within a recruitment advertising agency called T MP. Is Actually called cal at the time, but they're a very familiar with TMPA used to recopire has. So at the time we'll call an advertising was massive. You got to think this is before the Internet. So companies were spending a absolute fortune to advertise jobs, to advertise their company as a place to work, and so it was a huge business. You you know, if you wanted to advertise a engineering job, you'd spend, you know, thirty, fortyzero dollars on a weekly on a weekly newspaper at in the Troyno Globe a mouth, and my job was to write those awful ads that were here we grow again and all of those pay of things. And I did that for years and got promoted a few times and they had trouble fitting me into where they thought I could be. I I loved working with clients and love working with the team and really enjoyed what we were doing. And so a few years in they said would you like to be a sales person? And at this point I progressed to being a creative director. I was probably twenty five and I said no, I love that title, created director. That's fantastic, and they said we're going to make a lot more money and I said well, okay, let's give it a try, and so I gave it a prior got in the sales and absolutely loved it and TMP ended up owning something called money stuff monstercom, which was a huge job board. They're late S and early heard of it and it was massive and I ended up working there as a salesperson. I was sales rap of a year for the multiple years I managed their team and met my business partner now, who became sales up of the year after after when I was in that leadership role, and...

...then we decide we're going to start a company and we thought, Hey, you know what we should do? I don't like the job board business because you have can't, you're not you don't feel like you're solving a problem. You feel too far away from highers and we didn't feel that there was a really good sales recruitment specific company and we just went we're going to go and do it, and so we started to two thousand and seven south talent agency. So you've been in business for twelve years. So how's it going and sort of what have you learned? And tell us about I mean, I was in I kind of know how it's going because I was in your offices last week and it's going amazing. But tell the rest of the audience, you know, about the growth over the last twelve years and and sort of how the business is doing. Well. It's funny because we went in there. We own this fastest growing list, which always makes me laugh because we're the slowest growing fast growing company I've ever seen. We've got where we're really good company. We got sixty people are amazing problem solvers all different career levels. That's what they do every single day. You know, sixty odd percent of our income goes out to salaries and bonuses and commissions, because our product really is people, the people that solved the problems for our clients. Every year we've grown own every single quarter we've grown year over year. We're now at ten million, just a lot over ten million of revenues a year. Any company in the software space that got to ten million after eleven years would want to jump off a bridge. But we really happy with it. We love what we do. We we work with some amazing companies. We try and be better all the time. I think what's really excited me about our company is, you know, you start the business and you go hey, we're going to be the greatest sales recruitment company ever, and we placed candidates and we were actually doing pretty well. And a few years in we realized actually the candidates were placing and not that much better than the candidates, that they're higher in themselves. The only differences they're paying a lot more money for them. And so we really we are looked at our business and said we got to figure out what the ingredients for a great sales personer is, and we came up with something called DNA pro, which is super simple and almost to the point of idiocy, but it is amazing and it is incredibly impactful and every time I talked to a sales leader about it there are like, Oh my God, how do we not been doing this all along? Or is it tell us about it? Well, so you know, there's loads of ways to analyze salespeople, right, you you there's loads of opportunities you can have. The more time you can spend with a candidate the better. Every employers trying to make great sales highs, and so we said, okay, well, what are we trying to analyze, though? What are we actually looking for? And so we asked all of our clients. You know, what do you look for in a sales person? And we were finding company within the same company, if you put a whiteboard up and said what do you look for in a salesperson, every sales leader would come up with fifty different things and we're like, well, why are you all looking for? For the same ingredients, but said a different way, and we came up with DNA pro. DNA is related to their raw talent. So if someone seventeen years of age, or if they're seventy years of age. What is the ingredients that you need to be really good at sales? And then Pr Oh, Hey, you what makes you job ready for this role right now? How can you ramp up quickly? So it's simple. For us with DNA was drive, nature, acumen. Very simple words, but we broke them down in a way that a lot of people hadn't thought of them before. So, for example, drive, everyone would say, yes, a salesperson needs drive, but we often as leaders, miscategorized drive with ambition. We think that somebody's ambitious, therefore they're driven. We think that they're loud and aggressive, therefore their driven. But what we found was you needed three things to have drive in the way that we needed it. We needed someone who had a great work ethic. Hey, sales people of the last place to hide, not so much in the modern era, but at the time we launched, you know, there was a lot of outside sales people who could sit in their car for hours on end if they wanted to. So we need someone who was you know, had great work ethic, they were accountable to themselves. We needed someone who set goals for themselves, as you know, companies set goals for salespeople all the time, but the best salespeople pretty much ignore those goals. They don't care about quota quotas from mediocre people. They care about the goals they set for themselves, which are typically much higher than quota and we want someone who's resilient enough to go through all of the crap you have to go through to get to those goals. As a salesperson, you're going to get told no a ton and you got to be okay with that. Not Accept it, but be okay with it. So having a good work I think, with the resiliency to be able to get to that goal was a huge thing. And so we're always looking for people that have set goals for themselves, depending on what career level they are, it may be in their personal, professional, educational, Athletic Life, and we want to see how hard that goal was and what they did specifically to bust through that wall, to punch through that wall to get to that goal. So that was drive. Okay, well, that was fantastic. Then we said, well, drives not enough because pay you can, a serial killer can have drive. We need someone whoo's got a great amount of...

...nature. What we refer to as nature is emotional intelligence. You can call it empathy if you want to. We debate often whether there is empathy, but emotional intelligence is critical for a salesperson. You're going to be dealing with people all the time, different kinds of people, different personality types, different career levels, different influence levels, and you need to be able to understand where they're coming from. You need to be able to have a conversation with them in a way that makes sense to them. And then, finally, you need acumen. We're in a world where we want challenges, we want solution. Sales people, we want consultants. We problem solved as a salespeople now, and so we need someone who's bright and curious. They don't have to be a jeopardy champion, they just have to have a bright, curious mind where they're going to become an expert something. If you think about the best challenges their experts, they're not challenging just because their decks they're they're actually challenging because they know what they're talking about and the client may not, happen, may have a problem that they don't even recognize yet, and that salesperson is going to help them figure that out because they know it. They learn more about the sales process, they learn more about the competition, they learn more about the sales the client and what they do and how they do it and what challenges they face, and they are sponges for information. So that's just the DNA side and you can kind of see that if you start digging into that, you can get really passionate about not just what it is but how to find that in someone. Yeah, I mean, that's that's actually the question. The mean. And so, first of all, one common is to your point, exactly to your point, like a lot of these qualities are just you know, a lot of people are talking about them but using slightly different words. I have a question. You know about drive and about resiliency. Do you have a degree of difficulties scale when you're asking a question of a candidate, you know, you say what's the hardest thing you've ever done, and you sort of have a framework where if it wasn't quite hard enough in your opinion, than that disqualifies them. How do you test for drive? Why? So every role. So if you think of DNA as dim ast switches, right, so some roles require a lot more drive then others. If you're selling state knives door to door, you're going to need a drive on eleven, whereas if you're working for a company as an account manager, your drive level may not need to be quite as high. It doesn't me, it doesn't mean it can be a too, but it doesn't have to be quite as high. So a lot of the time we're analyzing, based on a specific role, what the requirements are, as opposed to whether they could be good at all. But when we're looking at drive, the question we always ask ourselves is why is that good? You know, for example, if you get someone junior in our company with the first few weeks of their job is literally just to analyze DNA of hundreds of candidates. That's what their only job is to interview analyze so that we can kind of help them direct their questions, because it's not a same question every single time. You've got to try and dig in and figure out what was hard for them. And it doesn't mean just because they have drive that they'll be good in sales, for example, there's loads of people that have an amazing wheel when it comes to exercise. Maybe it's a triathlete, but they don't have they haven't prioritized work in the same way they've prioritize their health, the fitness in in that way. So their drive is being executed completely. Their goals are completely related to their athletic achievement. What we've got to do is not only find out do they have drive, but is it directed in a way that is useful for us and our clients? And, would you say the directing a usefully means, frankly, I mean this is something I've always learned when I was going to going through discussions about assessment and assessing personality profile. is they like to make money and they're willing to admit that. Is that? Is that a framework or a test that that you use when you're talking to candidates? I think that's a really great question you want to I just said about myself I want to make money. The question is why and how much right, because what you're trying to do. So let's say, for example, if it's someone at the beginning of their career, I want to make money, I want to know what does that mean to you and what are you prepared to do to get it? Doesn't make in money mean fortyzero a year consistent income, or does it mean you want to get to a hundred thousand dollars in the next two years, in which case that's kind of interesting. Now that doesn't that's just ambition. Again, I've now got to align that with the analysis of whether they have what it takes to to meet that ambition, the work ethic and the resiliency. But that's the goal they've got. It's an interesting goal. That does help me align it and say, yeah, you've got the right goal. Now someone's a bit more Seenia, their goal related to money can become completely different, almost debilitated, where they become golden handcuffs and they're more focused on a consistent, big income than they are about chasing something much bigger. It's a great point. There's brightness same because this just even this conversation, you can see it's it's a it's a it's so fluid. You know, if I knew exactly how to I identify driving every single person a hundred percent of the time, I would...

...be way why. I'd be rich, rich, rich block in an amazing way. Now, why is interesting for me is that what I say two employers all the time and they have to keep in mind that as an employer, your job is to take risks, but it's to analyze and mitigate bad risk. Right you hire and someone is like bedding on is bedding in poker. You have you can't win unless you bear, but you can only lose if you bet. And same as in recruitment and employment. You can't get bigger, you can't get more money unless you hire people. But the only way you can make bad highs is by hiring people. So your job now is not to be right, it's to mitigate as much risk as possible. There is no successful leader out there that hasn't made mistakes, including me, lots and lots of them. I did analysis last year. We'd hide a hundred and twenty eight people in our entire history and I try to put them in three buckets as to should I never have hired them, should I have hired them and they did a great job and that was awesome, or could I've done a better job as a company? But every employer, every leader, needs to be analyzed in that and trying to get closer and closer and closer to the route of risk mitigation and risk assessment. Yeah, and so, I mean, I agree completely that I have, I said, hiring as a probabilistic exercise. That's how you have to understand it. It's a lone here employed if if you're not hiring at all. And also it shouldn't keep I guess well this I'd love your reaction to this statement, which is the lack of a perfect hiring process should not keep you from making hires. had. What do you think about that? Well, of caught absolutely first. Yes. So then what is a perfect time process? You know, there's amazing books out there. Let's look at something like top grading, which is a really interesting way of analyze and ever of interview in a lot of companies have used that very successful in the past, but it is flawed as well. Everything be flawed. The reality of recruitment is you could yell out of your window who wants a job. Someone could lift up their hand and that could theoretically be your best heart you've ever made. It could be. Eretically, now the probability is low. So the better you can get at recruiting is o. that's awesome, but we do notice that as companies go from early stages where the leader of the company, who's got a real good pulse on what they want, the leader of the company who's got that pulse and what they want. As they get further and further away from the recruiting process, the company that can often go through some challenges because the people who've they're put in a much more stringer recruitment process, but the people in that process aren't as close to the solution. HMM, that's really interesting. And get past that and then you get the companies that are really big who, frankly, are just doing a horrible job because they've let their their operations HR team take control of it in a way that is impossible for you to make good, good decisions as a leader. You're making decisions that are holistic, that are designs to weed out the worst, not to get the best. I want to ask you a question about sort of career pathing for for people you know the world has changed so much. What advice when you've got all of these young, you know, sales professionals and you're again, you met eighteen thousand last year. What's the advice that you're giving them specifically about managing their career? Do you think? Have the rules changed? Have they evolved? Are they still the same. And what do you see? You know the common mistakes people make as they look out, you know, five to ten years over the course of their career. Well, the more we run, as you said earlier that we run the biggest student competition in the country, which is designed to get young people into sales in the first place. And this year, then you're five. We got four thousand people from eighty campuses across the country who are all talking about southes. That doesn't mean they're going to go into sales, but they're talking about it in a way that they wouldn't have done six years ago, and so we talked to them a lot about career path and ideas and what you know, how do you manage a career? And again, it depends on your level. But let's talk about someone early stages. The first thing you've got to say is, well, what do you need? What is your hierarchy of needs? You know maslow's hierarchy of need. Course, walk about hierarchy of needs a lot, which is what is the first thing you need is a salesperson. And what they often forget is the value proposition. You know, you can get so attracted to these bright and shiny companies that are getting a lot of money invested in them, but they actually, as a salesperson, incredibly hard to sell because they don't have something that really is unique and compelling. They don't have proof of it. And so the first thing a salesperson, you got to look for when you're making a decision on a roll is do you have something that has an audience and can you communicate it, that factor, to that audience in a way that is compelling? And then you go well, is there a manager or leader, a coach or an infrastructure that set up for me to continue to develop? You know, obviously, if you're a little...

...later in your career, you may want more autonomy and no development. You're you're a gun for hire, but early on you don't know anything. You know, I think about myself as a salesperson in my early days in Berb sales and I was absolutely useless. I still make sales, but a rate that was so much less efficient and effective than it would be at this stage of my career. And so for me, first of all, it's the biggest mistake people make is they jumped to a shiny object, they're inner path, instead of staying in that path. Someone else comes along a company like mine and they wave hey, hey, hey, look at this. You've been there for eight months, nine months, a year, look what you could be doing, look how much they'll pay you, and you make that move. And as much as you would think as a recruitment agency we would encourage that, we don't at all. We feel like every career a jump should be a three year minimum courage jump so that you've had a chance to learn something, prove something and get a really good reference and advocate from your employer. And so that's interesting. I mean I would bet that most you know sales professionals, particularly early in their career, are not staying places for for three years. Are there? I would imagine that from your perspective it doesn't hurt them quite as much as it may be used to twenty or thirty years ago. But you know, it strikes me just that the act of putting the stones together, that the path, assembling the path that becomes a curse, just much less transparent to people in terms of what should they do at then it's ever been before, I guess. I mean, I don't know if you agree. Well, yeah, I think that the average tenure of a salesperson. We know the average ten you of a sales post is much, much less than that. I mean we're in a really hyper fast as you said earlier, Toronto is a growing market. If you look at Boston, if you look at Seattle, if you look at Houston, San Francisco, New York, similar markets where there is a huge amount of new companies that are coming up, that are being incredibly well funded. The are looking for really good talent and that talent whole is scarce, and so it is really attractive to make those moves. When I say three years, that is an ideal. That certainly is not what's happening. Yeah, yeah, when you so we've talked sort of from the candid perspective. When you're coaching employers. You know, you mentioned MP and you know I think employer branding as more important than ever. Certainly I worked at them, mews, so they would reinforce that that idea. But you know what, are you coaching the employers, the companies, when they're trying to put to get? You mentioned that there's a bunch of flaws in the in the recruiting process. What do you think is the perfect recruiting process and how? How should a company design itself in order to get the best possible talent? So we have an answer for this. I'm going to just go through our full processor. I love it. The answers are good, perfect. So the first thing I want an employer to think about is what is a good higher? Right, because oftentimes when you say hey, what's a great high you've made, they'll tell you someone in the last six seven months who they love, who's doing a good job. But actually, if you think about a great higher, someone who's hit numbers, being a cultural contributor to help you grow as a business for an extended period of time. Whatever that period of time is depends on your business, on how quickly you can monetize them, how quickly they can ramp up. If it's a sale cycle of eighteen months or more, if they're not there for three years, there's no chance they've been affective. But and if it's a really fast out cycle, they could have been really effective in eighteen months. But the first thing you've got to do is say, well, what is a great higher? And now you've got to say, well, why do we not sometimes make great highst what is the most obvious reason and the first thing that employer will say to you as well, we chose him incorrectly, I should have chose a different person. And what we will typically say is, yeah, that's one of them. But there's two other reasons that are much bigger. Those reasons are that you didn't have good people to choose from. You didn't find an attract them, so you ended up choosing high, lower high risk at highres that you shouldn't have chosen because you hadn't got low risk hires in your put and your pipeline. And the other one is that you had a good hire, you didn't equipment for success. You're blaming all of their failure on on them, when actually you need to take a much bigger look at yourself. So we come up with summit called face face, find, attract, choose equip and every one of our biggest clients we try and do it with every client, but it's obviously so we're much more transactional with some. We look at that, find a tract, choose equipment. We try and analyze each of those areas and say, okay, how are you finding candidates? How are you basically getting in front of people that would have a conversation with you. They've got the skill set, basically, you're looking for and they want to have a conversation with you. What are you doing in terms of employer for us? What are you doing in terms of inbound leads? What are you doing in terms of outbound networking or head hunting or whatever you call it? Then you say,...

...well, now that you've have in these conversations, that's a that's great, but good candidates have choice. How can you attract those good can it is to your business. You need to know what those good candidates want and you need to be understanding that a ping pong tables not going to do it. You know, I go to so many companies now. Now, this is kind of a Cliche, but we'll go into that company in the first thing they show us when they talk about their employee experience is a game's room or is a kitchen that's got free food, and it's like, well, listen, that may appeal to some people, but it doesn't appeal to good sales people. They can pay for their own stuff, damned straight. Hey, and I am against through food. And then we go to find a tract. Now you got to choose them, use that DNA pro process. That doesn't mean that solve your problem. It's just the ingredients. But now let's look at how you're going to identify those ingredients and then, and I'll get to that propart later if you want to. And then the last part is equip okay, you done all this work. You've lifted up all the rocks to find them. You've worked really hard to build an environment that tracks them. You've looked to your condensates, you've done everything. You've gone and you've analyzed and based on DNA pro to choose them. You've done all kinds of panel interviewing, top grade in assignment's assessments. And now you've got to equip them for success. You've got to put them in a spot where that maslow's hierarchy of sales needs is actually provided. You've got to keep looking it over and over again and say what do they need that they don't have right now to be the best version of themselves so that they're not only performing at high rate but they're also happy be here? Most people don't want to jump from job to job. They do it because they're running out of in a perceived roadway where they are. It thanks a lot of sense. Yeah, I mean I feel like even just the what what kind of advice do you give companies around employer branding? Are you telling them higher t MP, do big videos? You know, what's what's sort of the fundamentals from that perspective, Justin when we're thinking about a tract. Yeah, we talked about being authentic again. I'll I try and be agnostic in terms of referrals. You know, like who do you refer someone to? You know, I find TMP. I work for four years. It depends what team you get. Like any advertising agency. You know, if the team that some compan advertiser advertising companies of any kind coming with is their best team, and then once you're there for a year, do you still have their best team? But theoretically you need to. However you do it, whether it when it be outsourcing it ends or internally, you need to say what is our experience? We talked about it as an employer brand. We talked about as a culture. What is our experience and how can we communicate that so that the people that would really enjoy this experience know of it, can and can interact with it? We try and get them to be much, much more authentic. I'll give you an example right now. One of the things that every candidate does, ideally they should before they make a decision, if they go into glass door and they look at all of the glass door reviews of that company. Well, who puts a review? What employee puts a review on our store? There are twos, mostly than the disgruntled, negative employee. That's been my experience. That's the first one. WHO's the other one? The well, the manager posing as a as a midlevel employee, the HR person, the manager, raditus family. WHO's going? This is the greatest place I've ever worked out. I would never work anywhere else again. If if someone gave me a hundred more, I would. There's no ways. Yes, there's two things. So so we've got this glass door which there is an interesting idea but theory, but in practice is actually a very flawed analysis. So you go, Oh, well, why? You need to not let them be so reliant on that analysis. Give your candidates more transparency into what you do really well and what you don't do really well. Do X interviews on camera with people that leave the organization and let their words stand. Don't let it be phony. have an opportunity to really tell your story. What do you do well? What don't you do well? What are you improving? You know? How do your managers lead? What is their goal? How are they measured? When a promotions made? How are they made? Is it a meritocracy? If so, how can you prove it? It's exactly the same you. We put so much effort now into what we sell as a company, but the reality is without the right sounds professionals, we are in a really tough spot. We need to put as much thought into how to communicate our value proposition to the employees before they get there, and it's not as easy as a nice add from t MP, even right. Yeah, he can definitely help. Don't get me wrong. I Hey, listen, I did great work there and I know some amazing people, but if you expecting advertising to solve your problem, you'll get people coming in who leave three, six, nine months later because it wasn't true. You got to get to the root of what you do really well, figure out what...

...you do poorly and look for ways to mitigate those challenges. If you know you can't pay as much as the market, you got to be a little bit more thoughtful about the candidate poll that you go from and not try and get people from the same pool. Be a little smarter. You have to look at all of the little things that you do really well. And you know we're in a world where there are some beast companies out there that have a lot more money to spend. So if you're hot thinking that the only way you're going to get tamed candidates is by outspending you, you don't have a lot of bullets in your gun. You're absolutely right. And also the well, you know, you just have to decide where do you want emphasize, and maybe maybe pay as one of the areas that you want emphasize. But then again, you're you're going to the deep water with the people with pools of capital, like, you know, facebook and sales worse, and all those folks stick because a lot of the employers will say, yeah, but Tim makes that money and he's fine, and you go well, Hey, Tim hasn't been recruited enough yet. Tim's and anomaly. If you if you can survive building your business on Tim, good for you, but you may need sixty of those, a hundred of those, two hundred of those, and you're in a tough spot. You're absolutely right. So we're almost at the end actually, of our time together. But there's one last topic going to talk about because we love giving sort of practical, actionable, market driven insight. So you're in the market all the time talking to SDRs and account executives. You're in Toronto. Walk us through some of the numbers. What are the numbers that you're seeing for base salary? Are we still seeing, you know, account executive at least mid markets, ass account executives in New York, you know, markets about six thousand and sixty. So sixtyzero base, sixtyzero bonus. The quote is probably x the the Ote on the commission. Target SCRS are different. What are you saying, Jamie, in terms of compensation, so that the people listening can know if they're, you know, making them out that they're supposed to, if they're overpaid underpaid, and what the frameworks are? I think it's a really timely question. Obviously, the first question we ever get asked by an employers what should we pay? That is a question that we've tried to answer over the years with a salary guides. We've got a definitive salary guide, but actually that God is just vastly out of date now, and what we've found is that every salary guide is out date. How we taken that information is incredibly flawed, and so we're actually in the process of building something right now called our last one hundred, and I lost one hundred is essentially an algorithm and it takes that lost one hundred placements, whether it be holistically or in specific the regions or with specific job titles or role descriptions, and you can actually say the last one hundred placements what the salary was, what the total ink come was, what a word cloud of what benefits were, and you could also see that down to the last ten placements. So you can start to get a real time. It will update all the time because every placement we make will be added to that data. So the last one hundred is always changing. In the last ten is always changing. How do we get our hands on the last one hundred? This is sounds amazing. We're going to be launching it in the next before the end of queue one we will have launched it and I would love for you to help us analyze it. Sam obviously this is something that was passionate for you and I would love your help with that. Great I will definitely get you on that team. But so, theoretically we've got something that we've got to finish. But is a really good answer for this. Let's look at it practically. It as you know, in major markets around North America real estate has jumped massively in the last few years, in the last ten, fifteen years. Income compensation has not typically matched that and it was pushing at the seams in the last few years and it has exploded now. The last two years have had massive, massive increases in the income and the salaries and the market expectations of candidates and what they're getting out there. For example, if you're a new graduate now, just two or three years ago you could have come out in a sales role for thirty six thousand dollar salary. Of Forty Five Tho, you're not going to get anywhere close to that anymore. You know, if a new graduate is not coming into a role in this it's forty two to Sixtyzero. There's new graduate for an str new graduate for an str I remember. These are con million dollars or US dies dollar Sam. So whenever a poking about this money right now. We do a lot of placements in the US by don't have quite as much of a knowledge of that. So I'm going to use Canadian dollars. You've got to take thirty percent difference on that are good. So let's say forty two to six S, what you mentioned. So let's say Fiftyzero as the midpoint, and that's base. That's a base salary and typically it will be fifty. For an STR Bedr, the the base salary is going to be higher and you're going to have another twenty thirty percent in commissions or bonuses. Once you get to that AE range, you're going to get in more like fifty, fifty percent, fifty percent, fifty percent. Yeah, and now and that AE range you could there's a really, really wide range. Again depends on the industry, but let's stay within the text base for the time being. You're definitely now looking at a very minimum of six K base and we've seen a he's in the last year going for over a hundred eighty,...

...hundred eighty base. And again it depends on what their expectation is, the expectation of what they're going to be bringing into a company. If they're working on software deals that are millions and millions of dollars and expected to do three huge deals a year. One hundred and eighty base with a three hundred and sixty on target is absolutely in the realm of possibility, whereas if you're looking at something that the south cycle is more likely six months, the average deal size, the annual revenues, the at the annual revenues of a company all the at the price point would be twentyzero dollars. You're probably looking closer from sixty five to eighty five K base with a non target income of one thirty, two hundred and seventy. Yeah, Great. Last question specifically on str is. Okay if you don't know the answer, but we talked a lot about str camp plans. You know, do you see commonalities there? You know, the twenty thirty percent? Is it typically just opportunities generated or meeting set? Do you see a significant percentage of the time that the SDR is getting, you know, one percent of the closed business that they originate? You know, just talk to us a little bit about that, because it's a it's a topic of comment. That's question. We all know that the the the sales process in software since predictable, where revenue came out in two thousand and eleven. The sales pro the sales processes changed dramatically for almost every company, but especially in the software space. Everyone's taking chunks of the sales process. Very few people are doing full sales cycle. When it's full sale cycle, you can be measured completely on revenue, and this fine. You know you you open in the revenue, your close in the revenue when it comes to an str or media. But let's talk about an St let's talk about an outbound sales professional only responsible for essentially getting it to the point where in a qualifying to the point where an a is taken it over to give them it based on revenues. Actual deal closing can be quite frustrating for them because they have so little control over that actual deal closing and it's also so much later than when they were involved in the process. They could be involved in the process eight months before anything happens. So what we're finding more and Moise people being paid for activity and quality activity as opposed to revenues, being paid for the book meeting as opposed to being paid. They may get a trial in number based on the revenues, but it won't be just revenues. It will be based on quality activities, books, meetings, books meetings to convert into quality sales processes, as opposed to just the revenue that's generated from it. got it very good, Jamie. It's been incredible to have you on the show. We did not get, unfortunately, to figuring out what pro is. Why don't you tell us very quickly what? Yeah, exactly that. It's that and and we're going to have you on Friday fundamentals in a couple days and that's when we're going to I'm going to ask you one question, which is, you know, what's the number one piece of advice you can give people going into an interview? But before we part ways this time it would be great. So if I'm a person in Toronto or I'm considering moving to Canada or I'm just a sales professional, I want to get in touch with you. I guess the first question is a is that okay? Are you open to people from that are listening to the podcast reaching out to you? Absolutely hot and not just okay. I'm encourage. If you ever want to reach out to me, you can obviously reach out to me on Linkedin and I'll be happy to point in the right direction. Very good, very good, and any parting words or life motto or Guiding Principles that that you want to share before before we hit the road on this conversation? We have a very clichehade model, that sales talent agency, which is the way you do anythink is the way you do everything, and so we try and explode. We try and take everything we do seriously, even when it should be laughed at. We try and take every day as if it is something that's really important, every current problem. We understand that we're not here in cancer. Most companies aren't. So there is a certain sense of humor you have to have in business. But we take every problem that we get really, really seriously and and and try and run it as hard as we possibly can and be the sales people, be the business people that we want to clients to hire. I love it. I love it, Jamie. Thank you so much for joining us on the salesacker podcast. Folks, it's the spelling did. The last name is scaar Br Bo Rou gh scarborough, and he's on Linkedin. So if you want to reach out to him on Linkedin, and get in touch. He'll be responsive and if you're a candidate, that'll be great and if you're a company looking to higher sta, that'll be great too. That I get that correctly, Jimmie solutely perfect. So thanks so much for joining and and we'll talk to you on Friday. Look forward to it. Everybody. It's Sam Jacobs and this is Sam's corner. We really enjoyed speaking with Jamie Scarborough and on Friday fundamentals, he's going to have some really great insights on how to prepare for an interview. I took away a couple things that we've heard repeatedly on the POD. They STA...

...sales talent agency. That the company that Jamie runs. They've developed this thing called DNA pro. We didn't figure out what pro stands for because we were having so much fun talking, but we did figure out that DNA stands for drive, nature and acumen. We talk a lot about qualities that make a great salesperson. I want to focus on on drive and you know he has his own way of framing it and we've talked about the will to sell on the podcast and commitment, responsibility, outlook and accountability and desire. That was the other one. But Jamie frames that is drive. It's not just ambition. So his point is it's not just about you know, wanting something big for yourself, it's what are you willing to do to get that? In my world I call that commitment and his world he calls that drive and resiliency. But we recognize that it's just important. What are you willing to do to achieve the goals and why are you willing to do it and what proof do you have that you've done that? Also, echoing Danny Hertzberg and a bunch of other people, goal setting. They want to know, hiring managers want to know what are the goals that you've set and and how can you demonstrate that you've achieved them? And why are those goals interesting to you? Why do they motivate you? Why do they challenge you? So I think that's something else that's interesting. Now, finally, we talked a little bit about comp remember to adjust for Canadian dollars, but in the Canadian market right out of school we're looking at forty twozero base up to Sixtyzero Canadian for SDRs and twenty to thirty percent bonus on top of that. Moving away from including closed business as a payment mechanism. Early focused on activities, activities of the SDR can control. Those are going to tend to be set meetings, book meetings, S Qo, sales, qualified opportunities. We all know that. Some of my best friends are doing point systems that sort of combine a variety of different activities, but that's the compet you can expect. And then if you're a mid market rep, you know he talked about mid market reps anywhere from sixty five to eighty thousand cannadian base, maybe as high as a hundred thousand. That sounds about right because it's about sixty thousand US dollars. Another fifty percent of that's going to come in the form of commission and and then enterprise reps as high as a hundred and eighty maybe sighs two hundred thousand dollars against, you know, a three to three and a half million dollar quota. So those are some specific numbers that we can take away in terms of what's happening in the hiring market. This has been Sam's corner. Before we go, we want to thank our sponsors, chorus DOT AI and outreach, and if you want to get in touch with me. You're always free to do that. If you have feedback on the show, find me on twitter at Sam f Jacobs, around Linkedin, at Linkedincom the word in and then Sam f Jacobs. Of course we'd love to hear from you. We hope to see you at unleash and we hope that you are nominating yourself or your colleagues for the sales hacker top fifty, because again those guests will be featured on the pot now. I will see you next time.

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