The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

43. How Endurance and Tenacity Can Translate Into an Amazing Sales Career w/ Carson Heady

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This week on the Sales Hacker podcast, we talk to author Carson Heady, whose “Birth of a Salesman” series translates real-life sales issues into a popular fictionalized series of sales books.  Carson’s other role is as a leading specialist for Microsoft and he talks about his career in sales, why endurance and tenacity are so important, and how to bring the right perspective to a career in field sales.

One, two, one, three, three, quote. Hey everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome back to the salesacker podcast. Today we've got a great show. Would I ever? I say this a lot, but am I ever going to tell you that we have a shitty show? Probably not. The odds are low. It's unlikely. We can go into reasons why that is offline sometime. But first this is going to be a good show. We've got Carson Hetty. He is a three time novelist that writes about sales. They are novels featuring sales people as protagonist. It's called the birth of a salesman series. He's going to talk to us about that. He's also going to talk about what it's like carrying a bag at Microsoft as a cloud specialist working on some of their products, how to effectively do social selling, why it's important to cast a wide net, why you have to understand probabilities, what the Holy Trinity of sales is. So there's a lot of great nuggets in here and we and it was. He's just a great person. It's great to talk to him. Now, before we get into that, we want to talk about sponsored messages, messages from our advertisers and from the people that that pay the bills. The first is chorus DOT AI, the leading conversation intelligence platform for high gross sales teams. It records, I would say the platform, the software records, transcribes and analyzes business conversations in real time to coach reps on how to become top performers. With corus dot a, more reps meet quota, new hire, ramp faster, leaders become better coaches. Everyone in the organization collaborates over the actual voice of the customer. Everything goes much, much better when you use chorus. So check out CORUS DOT AI forward salesacker to see what they're up to. Our second sponsor is outreach, the leading sales engagement platform. Outreach support sales reps, as you know, by enabling them to humanize their communications at scale, from automating the soul sucking manual work that eats up selling time to providing action oriented tips on what communications are working best. Outreach has your back. outreaches one of the companies that is just kicking ass right now, growing incredibly quickly, and they also acquired sales hacker last year. Now we've got a couple to two more items. One coming up in March. We're running outreaches, running unleash two thousand nineteen, the sales engagement conference. It's going to be an amazing conference. I'm going to be there. A lot of the guests of the pot are going to be there. We've got some notable celebrities that are going to be there. It's March ten through twelve. So now you know, press pause on the PODCAST. Go ask your boss, Ma'am or Mr or mis or just remove the gender moniker prefix all together. I don't know where I'm going with this. The plans. Ask Your boss. Can I go to to San Diego March ten through twelve? Listeners the pod get a hundred dollars off simply for entering the code sh pod. Hoop over to unleashed out outreach dot io and use the code sh pod to save a hundred dollars. If your ticket, that is sh pod and unleashed dot outreach dot io. I can tell you that San Diego and March is a better place to be than most other play is in the country. Beautiful Zoo, beautiful beach, beautiful weather, great people. It's California. There's not what's not to like? Also, we started a new tradition at salesacer. Last year our top fifty awards. We're continuing at this year. We're looking for amazing sales people who elevated the profession in two thousand and eighteen. So we're asking you, MR or Mrs or again I'm getting back into the swamp of gender prefixes. So we're asking you human, whatever your pronouns. Maybe we ask you, podcast listener, to nominate your colleagues or yourselves. Winners will be featured on this very podcast and will receive some very exciting prizes, including being featured on the podcast, including the recognition and praise of the salesacker community. Get nominating. You can nominate at salesackercom forward slash. Nominate. Sales Hackercom fortslash nominate. I'm going to be nominating the few of my favorites, including Mark Jacobs, the best svp of sales cro I know, who leads the team over there at CB insights, and I'll probably nominate a few other amazing people as well. So we hope that you nominate some people. Anyway, I've been talking too long. Let's listen to Carson Hetty and here's Today's show. Thanks for being here, everybody it's Sam Jacobs and you are listening to the sales hacker podcast. You know who I am at this point on the founder of the revenue collective in the host of the show. But today's guest is a very special guest. He's award winning author and a top performing sales leader, speaker and management consulting his name is Carson Hetty and he's the author of the birth of a salesman series, which details the artist sales from interviewing through preparation, pitching, closing and advancing your career. He's served over the course of his career at multiple levels of leadership at Microsoft, atnt, verizon and t mobile. It's currently working at Microsoft and he's overseeing partner relationships and leading strategic sales planning. He's got a strong social media presence of over three hundred and thirtyzero followers. has hosted the smart Biz show on AG radio and he's been interviewed by a number of sales gurus, including JEB blunt and Jeffrey Gittimer. And me, I'm a sales right anyway. Welcome Carson. Welcome to the...

...show. Sam. Thanks so much. Appreciate the opportunity we are we're glad to have you. You're coming at a great time. We seem to be growing every week. We're now past five thou downloads per week, which I think is pretty good milestone. So so welcome. So, you know, we want to know who you are first and foremost. So you know, I just read through your bio, but tell us a little bit about your background, tell us what you're doing currently and give us sort of like some high level overview of both your role at Microsoft and then we can dive into your upbringing but also the books that you wrote the birth of a salesman series, because I think that's obviously going to be the highlight of the show. So I'll hand the mic over to you and give us a little bit of background. Yeah, no, I definitely appreciated Sam and excited to be a part of your show today. You know a little bit about me. I'm just a guy who really is passionate about selling and kind of came across it by happenstance. You know, I thought I was getting myself into a customer service type will after college and turned out it was pretty intense selling and I was one of only two people out of a dozen folks and my training class that graduated and within a month I was tops in the office and very quickly rose through the ranks and it had just had a lot of fun in sales and I've worked in telecom and advertising and now in technology and it's been incredible. Just you know, and it's funny, you know, we talked about the books and I had the audacity to write a sales book when I was in my late s and I knew nothing about selling relatively back then. That that what I what I understand now and just how my perspective has a vault and I think that's true of us all. I think it's important that we we task ourselves with a with a constantly evolving selling perspective and leadership perspective. So right now I do work from Microsoft. I am in a specialist type role. I'm in St Louis and I've got a territory and some reps that I work with and several different other specialist that I work with across different competencies. But the long story short is I'm in selling and I work directly with, in some instances, clients and sometimes partners based on what their initiatives look like. And whether it's me constructing a complex deal or whether it's pulling in resources in our immense company and partner ecosystem. My role has a lot of different hats and so keeps me on my toes. It's never dull and it's a lot of fun. Now you mentioned the books, and so I do have three currently I'm tinkering with a fourth, but it's been the best experience I could have imagined it kind of. I obviously haven't sold enough to retire because I still have a day job, but at the same time I've been able to connect with people all over the world like yourself, because of those books and and without them, those types of relationships never would have occurred. So it's been a very rewarding experience and I continue to learn and I'd consider myself a student of sales. So where are you from? Originally, Cape Girardo, which is a hundred miles south of St Louis. It's probably best known for two things, and based on your perspective that these could be good or bad, it's the home of rush limbaugh and it's also the plass gone girl. Gone girls are good movie. Russian Bas a bad, not a positive reference from my perspective, but we don't want to introduce politics. I guess if I need to score some drugs I can go visit with thresh limball. Just getting I think Cape Gardas mentioned in it's it's like a listen to William Song or something. I've heard it in the song recently that I got to go look actually on the from what I understand the last season of Ozark as well, they were trapesing through Cape or mentioned something that had transpired in Cape. So it's definitely growing in the ranks and maybe some day I'll be on their wall of fame too. All right, so have you sorry that we're we were going to talk about sales, but have you been to the ozarks? I have. I guess I have to like make the lake of the ozarks or whatever area. Yeah, it's a great area, Nice family spots and activities Galore for the family or for the single person. So I mean this. You can make this an ad for it there and no like big crime syndicates and heroin distribution and stuff like that like now, but I know of it. I've never sink any maintman wandering around there either. That's to the Marty bird well, fair enough, all right. Well, let's talk about so you said, it's a tell us about your books. You know, like, let's figure figure it out. You know, we don't have people that are both authors and so thought leaders on the one hand and in the end, not that you're not a thought leader in your role at Microsoft, but it sounds like you've got a quota and you're trying to close deals and I think it's always great also to have frontline practitioners. So it would be great to dive into both aspects of what you're doing. But tell us about the books. What prompted you to write them? Three books is deeply impressive. And tell us what they're about. And you know, I guess it's called the birth of a salesman series, but walk us through the trilogy, as it were. Absolutely so I found myself writing a column years...

...ago while I was at atnt. It was a kind of a divisional column and it was about sales and just different topics. And sales books have been written so many times that, you know, there was a I've always had a natural inclination to write. I enjoy it. Hopefully some people enjoy reading what I write. And yet at the same time I was like, you know, sales books have been done so many times and so well, I can't possibly contribute to that ecosystem. So I kind of created a fictional author of a sales book, and so I toggled back and forth between a novel about this fictional protagonist having these experiences and sales and then a book that he writes. And so he basically learns the lesson through real life application and then writes about it in this book, and so it's kind of a book within a book. It was a lot of fun to do, but the Labor of love and I've you know, I could tell you it took a long time to get it published. I sent a thousand nine hundred and sixty eight letters or emails to agents and publishers and very small amounts actually it would even read it. And then I had a handful that agreed to publish it. And nowadays, I mean, if you've ever tried to write a book or get it published, I mean there's a it's an interesting experience for sure, and there's some folks that sure it. I mean, anybody will do anything for money. So there's some that still want you to to buy it. Or pay for it, and I was fortunate I didn't have to do that. I went through a traditional publisher and is a good experience. Got It published, something I'd always wanted to do. So that's kind of what it was about. And and it was called birth of a salesman. It is called that, Yep. So birth of a salesman obviously a twist off of Arthur Miller's death of a salesman from a title standpoint, and you know, just kind of follows this guy and he goes through typical things that we, I think we all encounter. I took a lot of influence from people that I had worked with and some of my own experience of just things that we had seen and created a story. There's a little bit of a conspiracy running through the theme as well. So there's some business politics and and selling. It just things that we grapple with on the daytoday basis, and so that's kind of what prompted it and it's a little bit about what it's about. And then, you know, it was a good experience and there was more story to tell. I think that's the greatest thing about being in in sales as that you'll always have more story to tell and I would encourage you to journal your experiences. I mean, you don't have to set out to write a book, but I'll tell you, if I can do it, anybody can and it was very rewarding. It looks great as far as something that you've accomplished in your body of work, and so, you know, certainly would encourage you to at least journal your experiences, because it's great to look back and see where you've come from and what you've learned. But then, you know, the journey kind of continued for this guy. So the fictional character is Vincent Scott and you know he's, like I said, he's this kind of the sales guy and he decides to what as he what does he sell? So you know, everything and anything, and he starts out very similar to to my path. He was actually in the telecom business. I had a lot of stories from from that time and so that seemed like a natural place for him to start, and then he went into advertising later on. So we had some similar Valka life and you know, but the journey kind of continued into books too, and free and each time. You know, I wouldn't have done it if I didn't feel like I had had a unique story to tell each time out of the gates, and so each time I've tried to put a little bit more of a unique spin on it. But you know, I again I didn't want to go where others have gone and been far more successful than I could ever be. Are there sales ideas that you want to communicate through the books that also to you know, you want to communicate to the audiences? There are you? Are there specific ideas and methodologies? You know what, if we if we wanted to grab the cliff notes of like the three books and not focus on the plot or the narrative, but focus on the key concepts that you're trying to convey? What are those key concepts in your opinion? Yeah, it's a great question. It's it has definitely changed and I would say as when it started out, a lot of it was around what I felt was kind of your the attention to the sales food chain. So you know how important it is to be linked and to have a positive interaction and relationship with everybody that you're touching in the sales food chain. So if I'm a rep my relationship with my customer and my manager is very impacted. If I'm a manager, my relationship with upper management and with my sales rep is very effective. If I'm leading managers, you know, so you can see where that's kind of going and just how symbiotic those relationships could and should be, how focused on others priorities you need to be to be successful in those relationships. I also have a philosophy about the holy sales trinity. It's the customer, the company and you, and those three entities have to benefit from every deal that's constructed. If somebody loses and that deal, it's a bad deal. Walk away from it. Don't do it, and I think applying those philosophies is paramount. So I mean, even in my role today, I still craft deals and situations and...

...of course I've got to make sure that, you know, the partner that's involved in my organization, that's involved, gets the things that you know that are high up on the priority list, but I also have to ensure that the customer is getting their's that were bringing in resources to make sure that they benefit from this deal and that, at the same time ensuring that that that I when you know it's important that you're looking after everybody that's impacted by that deal. And it's not just for the immediate because of course, you know, any of US could go in for a cash grab, close a deal, get paid, but it could charge back, it could not. You know, I could leave a bad relationship there with the client and a year from now, when you want to go back in and upset or when that contract ends, you may lose that business if it's a bum deal. So you've got to be very forward thinking, but also focused on the the priorities of the here and now. I would also summarize by saying I'm very people in process oriented. I'm a firm believer that if you've got the right people, and by that I just mean people that have the right approach, the work ethic, the endurance, you've got the right folks doing the right process, and by right process I mean the one that's got the highest probability at success each leg of the sale, the of the selling process, you're going to equate to success. I'm a big probability guy, statistics and odds and you know it, each step of the process of selling. It's so important that we're focused on that step. You know, when I'm prospecting, I can't focus on the end result. I can't focus on trying to sell everything and anything that I've got in my little bag of goodies. I've got to sell a meeting half the time, or just somebody to pay attention to what I have to say, or or even just to what to connect with me in some way. And we've got so many different tools that have come available during my selling career. It's extremely exciting, but it also, I think, ups the anti for us as sellers to make sure that we're really putting a quality and best foot forward. The last thing I'll say on that topic would be, you know, if Sam if you'd ask me ten years ago, you know what I thought was the most important thing in sales, I would have probably said work ethic or or tenacity or, you know, just some of that will to win, or a personality. But frankly, at this stage of my career, I would say it's endurance, because there's so many times that we are going to go into selling situations where we're going to be told no where, deals don't go our way at even at the last minute, where internal politics bure accuracy process impedes us and the way that we react and responded. That is going to determine our destiny. You know, we can either pivot on it and tackle that scenario very quickly and a dress it and be effective and be responsive to our clients, or we can fold like a tent and if we if we react poorly, if we get frustrated and complain, that's not only going to create a negative brand for yourself, but it's also going to ensure that you're not successful in that role. And that's where you're going to be upset. You're going to be looking at other roles, you may become a job hopper because of it. You're going to have issues no matter where you are. There's always going to be similar types of issues at every organization. So it's important, I think, to really embrace the fact that you know you signed on to this. You know that's kind of a two way street. Company owes you training and Resources and support and you owe them the being the person you were on interview day and as I think it's very important to remind yourself of that daily, and I take that with me every single day. I remind myself of that every single day. Am I the guy that I promised to be on interview day and that helps me start off and keep my head straight every day no matter what happens. So when you're I mean it's a great lesson in theory right, talking about endurance and kind of perseverance and just maintaining a positive attitude. You've been doing this a while. How do you do that? You know, are there books that you've read? You Meditate to you exercise? Do you have a morning routine? Like walk us through if we can give some tips out there to the folks, because, you know, losing deal sucks. We all hear no more than we hear yes, and I think probably if you're young and you're your career, you may not have the strategies you know, you may not have the toolbox fully developed so that you know what to do when you lose a deal at the finish line for some reason that's outside of your control. So what do you recommend? I think it's important for me right now to repent for my past sends. That hell and my s I had the problem with wearing my heart on my sleeve on a lot of these deals and I I was reactionary in some of these situations and I probably sat with the pain a little bit longer than I should have, rather than saying, you know, hey, I mean this is, you know, learning from it immediately. You know, I actually had one of the best years of my career this past year and Co grabbing all thank you, and it was coming off a tough here actually, Sam and, and I learned a ton from that, from the from the tough here. But I lost a lot of deals last year and but with because of that, I took so...

...much learning and two other deals that I had that I won very substantially and that was all that really mattered in the box score. And so you're talking about routines and I think it's that's very personal for everyone to find kind of what their routine looks like. But I would say that it's all about, for me, prioritization of my schedule and making sure that I've got I'm carving out time to do the things that have to be done, that are necessary, you know, being being strict to follow process, and so for me that looks like, Hey, I'm up early, I'm usually up by thirty. What, Oh, yeah, Oh yeah, and and I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why in a second. And it's funny because, you know, my answer would be different at every stage in my career because when I was young and single, I mean I was sleeping in, I was getting to work right at right on time, and, you know, I was hammering out cold calls, and then as I got older and I was a sales leader, looked a little bit different. But you know, now I'm married, I've got two kids, so I'm up early because that's really the only alone time I'm going to get for the day and the only time that I can really totally, one hundred percent free my mind. So I'm up, I'm on the TREADMILL, I'm lifting weights and listening to music from rocky or whatever it is. I'm watching Netflix or streaming a show while I'm on the treadmill, because that's when I get to pick what I want to watch and I'm just and I come up with some of my best ideas. You know, I can I can look at my work email, but I'm not beholding to anything because nobody's calling me and I'm completely left alone. So I can plan my day and I had a manager tell me a few years back go through your schedule and even if you know, even if it disappoints the other person. If there is a something that's scheduled for that day that isn't paramount to your process and you have you know you've got other things that take priority, offer a move that meeting and push it out to a time where it's more conducive and really prioritized, but you've got to get done that day. And I gave that a lot of thought and I started to subscribe to that, because you look at your schedule sometimes and there's some fluff, there's stuff that doesn't absolutely have to happen right then and there, and then there's other things on your schedule that, frankly, should and could be expounded upon. Or maybe a customer is only available that day and you've been trying to get a hold of them for six months. You've got a prioritize. So I think it's important to be flexible with your scheduling and so I typically make it make it a point to do that. And then also scheduling me time, whether that's meaning that you have to schedule a lunch, lunch isn't just for whim scored and Gecko, and also making sure you maybe it's scheduling time to read a book, or maybe it's scheduling time to specifically to prospect, you know, carving out that hour where you're going through and you're consistently prospecting every day, going through the the business journals, going through your Linkedin, your sales navigator, doing some outreach, planting seeds for future success, being consistent and consistently applying process. It's what's going to yield results. So I think it's important to have a few different things based on your priorities, but it's also important to be consistent in your prospecting and in your you time what's going to help you focus the best, and that's going to look different for everybody, but for me that is made me so much more effective. What I'll drop this soon, but what time to go to bed? It depends. So a lot of times kid activities will take us up to like a thirty nine o'clock and then, you know, I try to spend a little bit of time with my wife before I got to go to bed, so it's like ten eleven o'clock. So it depends on a lot of you don't don't get honestly, yeah, it's I don't get a lot of sleep, unfortunately. I'm sorry. Okay, catch up to me, but not today. Well, let's talk about you know, you got so much sales experience and you talked about you just said your best here. So you're at Microsoft. You're a cloud specialist. First of all, tell us what does that mean? Yead, good question. I mean we we've evolved substantially as a company over the last few years and obviously a lot of our initiatives are very much play in the cloud space, but also on open source and how we can expand partnerships, and so we've taken a much more partnership approach, not only with clients but also our traditional partner ecosystem. So my role specifically, I used to be an account manager. My current role I'm I've got a team of specialist that I work with. There's account managers that work into my St Louis accounts that I partner with. I also manage the partner activity that transpires in those accounts, and so I spent a lot of my time meeting with partners, with account managers and with clients and a lot of cases, you know, a lot of the sea level, some of the strategic, more strategic deals are the ones that I probably get most involved in. So it can really vary, which is exciting and never never dull, never boring. But my role is traditionally spent in some of the strategic deals...

...that transpire in this geography. So these are the the big deals that you work on. Would that be accurate? When you mean strategic, you mean like seven figure deals? Potentially? Yes, absolutely. And so what's fun is I spend my time in what's considered the small, medium and premier corporate so I may have a startup company that is, you know, small in number from a seat perspective, but they consume a lot of cloud or I could have a ten, fifteen thousand employee organization. I have a lot of different industries that are represented. So it's exciting. I you know, I can I've learned a lot about deal negotiation in the role. I've learned a lot about just some of the different initiatives and things that customers are looking at now and into the future, you know, as they kind of road map out their priorities. It's it's exciting to watch what customers are doing with the data, what they want to do with data and even just being a small part of their journey. So you've mentioned prospecting a few times. What's the structure that you so you you are part of a team of people that includes account managers, but I take it from from the way describing it, you don't have a bedrs or str you're sort of doing your own pipeline generation. Is that ACCURA? It is to a degree, you know. So I definitely want to be respectful to our partner community. They do generate a lot of leads, but it's also important that we are going out proactively and connecting and meeting with and so there are there are some bedrs in certain cases and I would say a lot of times they traditionally will reside in accounts that are under penetrated, account mounts that are, you know, true, if maybe not grasped onto our overtures for cloud for the last few years. So there's a lot of folks that reside in that space. I spend a lot of time prospecting into into the sea level, but also into the you know, some of the I mean with some of the applications that we have today. You know, into you could be sales, could be marketing, could be hr so really anybody that could be you know, if it could benefit from our tools, which you know. Obviously that's pretty pretty wide array. Now you're you're asking about prospecting and kind of what. You know what Mymo is, obviously. So we purchase linkedin. So I mean, I definitely want to point that out that we own linked in as I endorse it. So this is not like a company endorsement or anything of that nature, but linkedin has been phenomenal for me to personally go out and meet whomever I need connect with, find who has what title at would organization Keep Tabs of who is changing roles, Geo targeting and helping really train my reps as well on how they can better prospect and what I mean by that is probably best illustrated by one of our larger winds that we had within this past couple of years and there. So you know, we have a lot of reports. You know we're big company, a lot of date, a lot of reports, and so I can see when clients, or even prospects, potentially so prospects that are not managed customers today, are maybe trialing some of our services, maybe using it to a small degree, and so actually went out use linked in to find I saw an organization that was using enough to probably justify maybe a small agreement, but certainly would have benefited from some of our resources. So used linked in and I think where I use it differently than others is that if somebody wants to meet with a CEO or a CFO, a lot of times they'll reach out to the CEO or the CFO. I'll reach out to twenty, thirty people maybe in an organization to get the one person or the five people that I may want to really ultimately connect with. In the end, I think I think all the relationships have have a lot of value, but I also cast a wide net because it comes down to probability and I think the main thing is that if you if you don't do it that way and if you're not casting a wide net, you're not going to be able to have the maximum probability of getting the person to connect with that you want. So had a deal a couple of years back where I would manage to connect with eleven people at an organization and one of them actually replied to my follow up and said you need to talk to this guy and I wasn't connected with that guy. Called that guy said Hey, I was told by this person that you seat. You know that I should be talking to you. Long Story Short, went out there. They were actually testing our services versus a couple of competitors. I brought in a bunch of resources and we were able to sign a seven figure deal and it was one of the larger deals in my channel for that time period. But that was a huge when and it wouldn't have existed without social selling and prospecting, but also casting a very wide net to ensure the best chance of success. So a couple questions. One, when you're casting the wide net, what is the are you first just very tactically? Our audience loves tactics. Are you using in mail? Are you using a connection request or you using linkedin sales navigator or something like it to find their email address and sending them an email? First question is, what's your first point of outreach? Yeah, I would say yes, and yes and yes. I think it really depends and it could the there's no right or wrong answer. I think you're looking for the highest probability of...

...success. Me Personally, I find that if I said linkedin request invitations to connect to these folks and I use what I've kind of evolved as wording over the last several years that I give myself a higher probability of them accepting. So a lot of times it will be something similar to Mr and Mrs Customer, Good Morning, good afternoon. Hope this note finds you well. Based on your experience and our mutual energy or our mutual synergies, or our mutual experiences or our mutual interest I felt you'd be a great person to connect with and to share ideas with or to learn from. would be honor to connect and, you know, just send it from that vantage point. Now, from a career standpoint, it could also be it could be also very personalized. So for these guys it was a little different because I work for Microsoft. These guys were utilizing our technology, so it was actually a lot more targeted and it was I noticed that you guys are actually utilizing some of our services. I want to make sure you're aware of the resources that we can bring to bear, some of the some of the specialists, some of the potential funding dollars, you name it. So it could be very personal or it could be very general at based on the situation. I mean, if you're totally blindly going into an organization, they might be very general and I also I encourage you to do things that you can scale effectively with, because if you definitely don't want to be prospecting into one account for an entire day only to come up empty. So finding a way to prospect into an account that can be pretty quick. Or maybe I'm blanketing and sending thirty requests and I get ten people that accept and then I reach out to those ten within a week and just try to set a meeting. That's what I would encourage. So it can be very targeted. I could also be very general, but I do mostly use linkedin connection requests, but I like I love sales navigator because you can save everybody as leads. I like to save not only my target customers as leads, target organizations as leads, but also even people internally that are sharing things that I think would be pertinent that might look good on my linkedin feed. So there's a lot of strategies that I think I take that everybody does, and I may add one additional layer, and that's one thing that I would say. You know, we were talking about philosophies earlier. I've got a really big philosophy around to change your sales results dramatically. You don't have to make dramatic change. Often it's a small tweak that can make a very, very large impact to your selling and frankly, a lot of times too, if you feel that a change is warranted, you know, don't just go out there and try it a couple times and it fails and you jettison that change. If you really thought it was worthwhile, keep doing it applied consistently over the longer haul, see what transpires. Maybe you tweak it a little bit here and they're going forward. But your sales process is never totally banked. It's always going to evolve based on the tools, the parameters, what's happening in the industries, etc. Up. So you know, I think it's important to take those types of approach. So there's no right or wrong answer and I do not profess to be a linkedin or a sales navigator expert, but I will tell you I've used it a lot and it's helped me be quite successful. I have a couple follow up questions. One is lots of people on Linkedin are out there saying to all the people that send me a connection request and then immediately try to sell me something as soon as I accept. Please stop doing that. Yep, are you one of those people? Are Or do you have like a different approach to it? No, not at all. I'm not even remotely one of those people. And I completely agree, and I see those posts all the time. I think it's all about adding value. You know, number one is it's all about value and, frankly, even if you're just even if you're selling something, look, I can see your profile. You know, you send me a request and I can almost read, I can almost guess when I get a request, what is you know, what's the motivating factor behind it? In some cases right, and I'm sure that a lot of our business decision makers are probably in the same boat. If they accept your request and then they see you're a seller, they probably know that something's common. And, frankly, you know the old adage that I used to tell all of my folks that were in inside sales, if you act like a telemarketer, it's very likely you're going to be treated like you think telemarketers get treated. You know, throw them for a loop. They've got a process for dealing with what you're doing, just like you've got a process. I hope for how you're going to address their you know, the call, the needs, the concerns. So differentiate yourself because that's the only way you're going to get a different result. Don't send them a litany of things that your company does. They don't care. They probably already have something that does something similar and they probably also have something that you know, or maybe they just you know, they just don't want to hear from a from a salesperson or whatever it is. I mean, there's a variety of reasons why they will or will not accept or will or will not respond, and I think we've got to be cognizant of that going in. Frankly, being in my position as a seller over the years, a lot of the people that I'm talking to maybe in sales, which is great, especially without selling advertising, or...

...they maybe a sea level or whatever it is, and I've tried to find kind of the common ground type of thing. You know, maybe you look for something that's personal on their on their on their Linkedin, you know, some commonality. Did you go to the same school when you have a similar interest, or you can the same group, and so that can often be the common ground to get the connection. But also, when you're sending a five follow up, you know, just even just request, remember your requesting a meeting. You're not trying to sell them that in an in mail or an email. You're just trying to sell the meeting and I think it's important that we remind ourselves that and tell them why you want the meeting or why the meeting would be a value to the customer. Or maybe you taken in a completely different direction altogether and you say, Hey, I'm in this industry, I do this, but what I'm very interested in is we don't work a ton in your industry or whatever it is, and I would love to sit down get your advice or either maybe even here. You know how kind of how you're grappling with this issue in your industry, or just think about a way that you can come at this, at this prospect in a unique way, and if you do it in a unique way you're likely more likely to get a unique result. Definitely don't want to reach out too quickly. You know, and especially immediately after I was liking it to dating and the the old movie swingers. You want to wait at least three days before you call. So don't be so opportunistic that the second they accept your request, you're pouncing on them with every single thing your company does. But politely ask for a meeting, you know, maybe three to four days later, if not more, and tell them why the meeting would be a value and and frankly, there's got to be something that your company does it differentiates and even if it's a call, and you know I've heard very respectful approaches that, frankly, you may already be doing something in this regard, but I would love your feedback on this component or you know, this is kind of what we do different than the rest, and if you don't think it's worth your time part, you know, just please just let me know where if there's somebody else I need to be talking to. But I think the main thing is differentiate, be respectful and understand that it's a numbers game your that's why I send a lot of notifications to a lot of different people, because the odds are small that I'm going to talk to somebody to begin with and I know that if I send out a hundred I can at least get a conversation and I'm willing to do that because once you're in the conversation. That's when you're driving pipeline and beginning a relationship. So another question for you. So you're one of the problems in sales is that oftentimes the people that want to talk to us want to talk to us and are willing to listen because they don't have any influence in their organization and they just like to take meetings. And so I'm sure, because you're reaching out to so many different kinds of people, that you encounter those people. What are your tactics or strategies for, you know, if you're ultimately trying to get to the c suite, you know on the ultimate buyers, the CIO or the chief sales officer, chief marketing officer, what are your specific strategies to move to use those people to, you know, judo your way to the people that you actually want to talk to, that have power, that have decisionmaking authority or influence and have economic, you know, authority, that can make decisions that can help you move the ball forward. Judo your way. I love that, Sam. That's good. You know, it's funny that you say that, because there's actually a chapter in my second book that there's a story, that there's a character that I kind of created, that that is that person, that that person that shows up to the meetings, gets the free breakfast, is always at the events, but they never buy anything, and it's funny because it's I won't give you any spoilers there, but sometimes these folks can lead to a relationship and you never know when or how, or even if it's at the organization that they're currently at. I mean they may make a move somewhere else, and that's why it's important to make sure that you don't burn bridges and relationships and the the earliest responsive in these types of situations. Now you very likely, if you're running into this, you've identified that that that a person may fit that bill, that they may be somebody that you know is just talking us, to take a meeting period, to show up on a calendar, you know, show their boss that they did something, and I think that's why it's so important too, and this ties to another really good trick of the trade, is always be looking for ways to set up a referral system, and this could be a litany of different things. It could be reaching out to different partners that you know may or may not be folks that you compete with on every single facet of your business, but that you could have kind of a symbiotic relationship with and do a, you know, a kind of a barter of trade here where you know, I don't sell this metric, I don't get compensated on this petric, but you do. So I love to refer people to you that do this and perhaps you could reciprocate by, you know, referring back to me the folks that you don't sell this component to, but I do. So I think, you know, that's one area where setting up a referral system is important. If...

...you're talking to somebody that you think just takes the meeting to take a meeting, can they help and, you know, get you in front of an influencer in your organization? Hopefully, at the end of each meeting you're asking, you know, who else should I be talking to about this? You know, obviously there's there's other people in your organization. You know, is it your boss? Is it this person or that person? We sometimes we're fortunate we have situations where we're able to go right to the top and we're able to work with that person. But I've had situations where I've had to start relatively low in an organization at work my way all the way up. It helps sometimes because you're able to say, you know, I've talked to your team, I've talked to your organization and this is what they're telling me from a feedback perspective. So sometimes these meetings can be valuable. But certainly when you identify that I've had two or three meetings with this person. They seem to love it when I take them to lunch, but there they've this organization's ever bought a thing or this person has an introduced me to anybody in their organization. Probably time to cut bait. If you ultimately want to get to the sea suite. I think it's important that you're targeting many different members of the sea suite, being cognizant that you know you've gotta that really requires more of that personal touch because the priorities are so different from one another. You know, whether you're working with somebody that is very focused on the financials or the operations, the Roi. Everybody's got a budget and you've got to ensure that you know you're able to you know, to really bring value and understand their business model, understand their their fiscal year and how it runs. So I think part of me wants to say, Hey, you can get a lot of pertinent information that can help you get to the c suite from the guy that just wants to take the meetings and, if they don't pan out, to give you referrals or introduce you to anybody else in the organization. You can at least use some of that information when you're trying to prospect to a sea level. It actually helps you from a position of strength to say hey, some of the feedback I'm getting from your team is this and I'd love to talk to you about this or get your thoughts on this, or how are you tackling this? Or this is something we've done in this similar area, just to try to get their attention because again, probability that may give you a better probability of getting in front of those folks. So I'd say again kind of cast that wide net, but don't discriminate against Intel, even if it means that you know you may have eventually cut bait on some of these relationships that are not bearing fruit. That makes a lot of sense when you were actually funny enough. I mean it's the time has gone quickly, but we're almost at the end of our time together. When you're thinking about you know you mentioned perseverance. Are there one or two other key lessons that you think we should take if we want to be successful for sticlar an enterprise sales, because you know you're working on there are multiple stakeholders. You're trying to work your way through the organization to get to the decision maker. Besides perseverance, what do you recommend that we think about when we're pursuing, you know, a twelve, eighteen month sales cycle for seven figures? So glad yes said Sam. It's also funny and I want to make sure I point out to because I know that there's a wide reaching audience that you have that are at various stages of their careers. And when I was in my s and I was in an inside sales group, I managed an inside sales group. There was a lot of one call closed scenarios, right and so I was very transactional and you know your you compare and contrast at to where I am now, where there's longer sales cycles, you're working with the sea level. It's all about relationships and that is at every stage of your career. You could be selling something, you could be trying to move around in your career. You know, I found myself inexplicably and not expectedly out of work several years ago and I had to train myself to really look in the job market and it ended up being from linkedin and social networking. There's a lot of tools that are out there. Nothing will ever replace the facetoface, though, and so I think you use these social tools, learn how to maximize your usage of the social tools with high probability activities, but nothing's ever going to replace the facetoface, the relationship and the responsiveness. I've had so many customers do business with me only because they knew I respond to every time out of the gate, sometimes within record time, and they pay more to go through me because I was responsive and they knew that I would take care of them. If there was an issue. I was responsive then too. I didn't go into hiding, I was on it immediately, pulling in the right people and I would always responsive. Even when it wasn't in my per view or my swim lane, I was still trying to help, get involved and bring folks in. And you never know when that's going to come back around. It's going to benefit you. Some of these folks will move to different roles or two rolls at different companies and then that's another potential prospect for you. So be very mindful of the relationship and do everything you can to devote yourself to that. The last thing I would would highlight. You know, we were talking about the endurance, perseverance, peace, the relationships. Peace. There's probability and you know, I don't know how many folks...

...out there are big game players, card players. It all comes down to probability of success. I mean we're in a game that can be broken down into a science and mathematics and sure there's a lot of psychology to it, but at the same time every action that you take is very designed to graduate to the next stage of the selling cycle. So if I'm prospecting, if I'm doing five different activities to prospect instead of one, you better believe I've got a better chance of getting ahold of the person that I want. Or you know, if I'm watching the business journal Trades and I see that X Y Z company named a new CEO, you better believe I'm reaching out to that person. Immediately and I've had many situations where I've done that. Got Them on Linkedin that day and I was in their office the next week. And so be as opportunistic as you can, but use as many mechanisms as you can to get in front of these people. But remember up front you're selling a meeting. You're not selling your product or service, just selling a meeting. So figuring out what you need to say to get that meeting and realize that it is a numbers game. You're going to need to try to sell a hundred meetings maybe to get one. Sometimes and change your messaging. Evolved, pivot, be adaptable, be coachable. But those are the types of things that are really going to change. Are Drive change and then application of your best possible strategic approach. And each leg is going to maximize the probability of success. So you know it's asking the right questions, you know it's doing that needs analysis. It's what you do with it. It's your your pitch. You know how you're overcoming your objections. You know you're going to change your selling process over and over and over through the years. Now, don't make drastic changes per se, but if you see a quality change that you can make. Maybe better questions that you ask or you pick up words or best practices from somebody else that you manage to sell with or, you know, whatever it is sell for. Those are the types of things that are going to help your sales process get better. It makes a lot of sense, Carson. Before we go any particular sales leaders, mentors or books or podcasts, of course, besides this podcast that you want us to know about, maybe it's been a mentor that's been superinfort launch, just people that you know, if we're out there trying to follow the breadcrumb trail, as often say, we want to encounter those people. Any, any, any places to lead us in terms of influential content or people. Yeah, you know, I would start with some of the some of the fundamentals, like think and grow, rich and Dale Carnegie, winning friends and influence, influencing people, some of the you know, just some of the basics in that regard. I love Jebb Blunt, just great guy, phenomenal conversations. I love this philosophies. GET HIM ER. Great Guy, just people that are just no nonsense and you know, we're all in the same you know, we're all in the same battle here and it's I think it's have fun and just really enjoy yourself to gravitate toward those things that are, you know, that are grounded in realism, because there's so many different selling philosophies out there. Philosophies don't necessarily get it done. Reading a motivational quote doesn't necessarily get it done. The practical application of these things. It just really being truly customer obsessed, not paying lip service. Those are the types of things that I gravitate toward. There are some great podcasts out there. I obviously love yours and there are several that I've been fortunate to be on that we have that have spoken to me. Like there was one with Steve Benson that I was on not too long ago. We love his philosophies. There was another one that I was fortunate to be on, the Mary Lou Tyler, and so there's a handful that I really gravitate toward. There's a really good article that I saw recently and I think you guys posted it, and it was one of the like the top sales podcast and frankly, that list is gold. I spent some time going through a handful of those and just listening. And what I love nowadays is that you can just stream that stuff in your car while you're driving. No better way to kind of start your day or while you're going to a meeting, fit some of that stuff in. And Simon Senek. Love his philosophies too. That's great. Simon Senek is fantastic, Carson. If people want to reach out, if they want to, first of all they want to buy your books. I assume they're on Amazon. Yep, Amazon and Burns and noble. It also available and kindle, and then the first one is on audio as well. Cool birth of a salesman. And then, if they want to reach out to you, connect with you, learn more about sort of how you approach selling. Is that okay, and what's your preferred mechanism? Yes, please. I love connecting with other sellers and I will be I will respond, I will would love to have a dialog, would love to chat. Even I'm on the Linkedin a lot at twitter. My handle is C V as in Vincent Heady Zero Zero Seven, and you can get me either place. Awesome, Carson. Thanks so much for being on the salesacer podcast and and we'll talk to you soon. Sam My pleasure. Thanks so much, everybody. It's Sam's...

Corner, Sam Jacobs, Carson Hetty, author of birth of a salesman. There's three books there, and then he works at Microsoft and he is doing the hard yards of prospecting, opening up new opportunities with partners, closing deals. I think that in general, you know, what I like most about Carson is just his overall attitude. He mentioned endurance, he mentioned just the ability to take a loss and keep moving. Obviously you know sales we do difficult work, my friends, and I'm here sympathizing and empathizing, but also sympathizing with all of us and with you, because you know, I often say if you hear no, nine times out of ten you're fired and seven times out of ten and you're, you know, a top sales person. In that way it's not dissimilar from baseball. And so Carson's very focused on probabilities, but he's also focused on just process. And one of the parts about process there's this big meme going around on twitter right now. I don't know if you've seen it, just a lot of people talking about how being busy is not a particularly interesting thing. I think Bill Gates there was a clip with Bill Gates, Charlie Rosen, Warren Buffett, and it's amazing. Go look it up on the Internet. Warren Buffett has his calendar Book and there's nothing in it because Warren Buffett doesn't schedule any meetings. And so you know, all these people, everybody out there on the world is talking about how busy they are. Honestly, who gives a shit? Like, nobody cares. Everybody's busy and it's boring to talk about how busy you are. That's thing number one. You have to took up. Talk about it a little bit, but it's boring. Stopping Boring. But that's not the important part. The important part is I saw on twitter somebody right in reference to the idea encapsulated in this idea, that warmed rouff it doesn't even have any meetings because he saves so much time for himself for thinking. So where am I going with this schedule? Time for yourself working like I can tell you I run my own business. I've worked a lot of companies, just grinding from the minute you wake up to the minute you go to sleep. You may think you can do that for a career. You cannot do that for a career. You will burn out and it's exhausting and you need to schedule time for yourself. You need to take vacations. Now I don't want you taking any vacations. If you have a quarterly quota and you haven't made a sale and there's thirteen weeks in a quarter, do not, please, don't take a two week vacation the last two weeks of the quarter. That's ridiculous. Don't do that. But you do need to take vacation. But even in the course of a day you need to schedule time for yourself. There's nothing wrong with that. You don't need to feel guilty. You don't need to be there till nine PM. That's sales is about interacting with other people. If nobody else is inner is there to interact with your prospects? It doesn't make any sense. So put time for yourself. Put time for yourself to go to the gym. Put time for yourself to go out and get drunk with your friends, or not get drunk if you don't like alcohol. Put time for yourself to read a book that's not about business, but read a work of fiction, read a work of that's just interesting to you. Just make sure that you put enough time for yourself, and the phrase that is in my mind is being busy as cheap and prioritization is bensive and it is expensive because you're going to have to say no to things. But learning the act of saying no to things that are not a priority is a key skill set of being an executive and will also dramatically improve the quality of your life. Listen, I'm a person that lectures people on what time to wake up, but it's more important that when you come to work you are feeling good. A good mood is more important than staying at the office till zero PM. So that has been Sam's corner. It's a little life lesson and a life lecture for you. I hope you enjoyed it. Now, before we go, of course, we want to thank our sponsors for this episode. It's Corus, the leading conversation intelligence platform for high growth sales teams, and outreach, the leading sales engagement platform. Also, don't forget, we've got the sales hacker top fifty awards. Nominate yourself or your colleagues. Go to sales hackercom forward slash nominate. We want to hear from you. The winners will be featured on the pod itself and I hope to see you in San Diego at unleash. It's going to be the best conference you've ever been to. March ten through twelve. If it's snowy and Shitty on the east coast, come to San Diego. We're going to be in bathing suits and drinking my ties, etc. Listeners the pod get a hundred dollars off. The code is Sah pod. Go to unleash dot outreach dot ioh and use the code s h pod to save a hundred dollars off your ticket. God bless us all. I'll talk to you next time.

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