The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 2 years ago

48. The Secret to Amazing Sales Engagement- Insight and Tactics w/ Max Altschuler

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This week on the Sales Hacker podcast, we talk to Sales Hacker founder and VP of Marketing at Outreach, Max Altschuler.  Max is a two-time author known for building intelligent and scalable businesses and joins us to discuss the new book, Sales Engagement and share some of the insights and tactics that are being adopted to deliver best-in-class revenue growth and sales team performance.

One, two, one, three, three, hey everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the salesacker podcast. I am the founder of the revenue collective. We are the exclusive communityfor commercial executives at growth companies all over the world. WE'RE IN DENVER,New York, Boston, London, Toronto, Amsterdam. Those are official cities,but we've been signing up people, sales leaders, commercial leaders, marketingleaders, from all over. Some of the folks include Kyle Lacy, theVP of marketing lessonly he's based in Indianapolis, Kyle Heron, who who's running asales team for mind Jim. He's based in Houston, a group ofpeople from Calgary and western Canada. So if you're a sales leader out there, commercial leader or a marketing leader, VP leveler above, we don't wedon't currently permit folks that are below the VP level, but if your VPleveler above, reach out to me over linkedin and we'll see if we canget you involved. It's really an incredible an incredible community that's been growing byleaps and bounds. But that's not the point today. The point is thesalesacker podcast and the fact that we've got Max Altshuler, the founder of saleshacker, on the show, and I think you want to listen to Maxnot just for sales advice but for life advice. Max Has a unique perspectiveon how to live your life, how to build your life, how tosolve problems and how to work backwards from your goals, and he thinks aboutthings in a very engineering, systematic way that, frankly, I find very, very inspiring. And of course we're here at on leash and to daywe are releasing, or at least this week, the the new book thatMax has written, I think, coauthored with many Medina, the CEO ofoutreach, all about sales engagement. I think it's called actually sales engagement,and so we want you to pick up that book at Amazon, but alsowe want you to listen to this amazing interview. Now, of course,today's show has sponsors and we must thank our sponsors. They are our corporateoverlords. They pay the bills, so bills must be paid and, asChara says from the real housewives of Atlanta, love don't pay my bills, butthese particular sponsors do pay our bills. The first is, course, Ditai, the leading conversation intelligence platform for high gross sales teams. Chorus records, transcribes analyzes business conversations in real time to coach reps on how to becometop performers. With CORUS DOT AI, more reps meet quota, new hires, ramp faster, leaders become better coaches and everyone in the organization can collaborateover the actual voice of the customer. So check out CORUs DOT AI forwardssale soccer to see what they're up to. And our second sponsor is our friendlyneighborhood outreach, the leading sales engage platform. Outreach support sales reps byenabling them to create communications at large scale that still retain authenticity, vulnerability andhumanity. So that's really, really important. They also automate a lot of thecrap work that eats up selling time and they provide action oriented tips usingdata on what communications are working best. So outreach has the back of thefolks that are working on sales and customer engagement. So those are our greatsponsors. We thank you for listening. We've got Max on the show rightnow and without further ado, let's listen to Max all Schiller, founder ofsales hacker, VP of marketing and outreach, CO author of sales engagement, thebook, and let's listen to how he approaches building a career, hackingsales, hacking his career and managing his life. Thanks for listening. Hey, everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome back to the sales hacker podcast.Today we have a very, very special guest because we have the founder ofsales hacker on the show, Max Alt Schiller. I don't have a fullbio in front of me, but I'll tell you this about Max. He'scurrently VP of marketing an outreach. He started sales hacker years ago from nothing, built it up into a business, was then acquired by outreach. It'sstill an independent entity. Earlier in his career he worked at you to me, and he's also written a few books. The first one, I believe,was hacking sales. I think the second one is called hacking careers,if I'm not mistaken. He'll correct me, and he's got a third book comingout that we're going to talk about in the show, and he's alsojust an incredible entrepreneur and so we're excited to have them on the show.Max, welcome to the show. Thanks...

...for having me. Yeah, thesecond book is career hacking. Career Hacking, okay. And then what's the we'regoing to talk about it later. But what's the name of the thirdbook? Sales engagement. All right, we love sales engagement. It's importantlyit. All right. So baseball card time, Max, your name isMax all Schiller. Where you work in these days? So still see ofsales hacker. So completely separate entity from outreach. But VP of marketing ata reach also. We keep a hard wall up, as you can tellfrom being a sales happer hacker subscriber. Are Marketing Automation and CRMS are completelydifferent. Teams are separate. So working on both of those right now tofull time jobs. You're like much to McCall. It Jack Jack Dorsey.It's a lot of fun's actually. I wouldn't have it any other way.All right. So we know what sales hocker is and we know what outreachesbut it's always good to hear it from the perspective of somebody that started thatcompany or works there. So first, salesacker. How would you describe salesacker? Yes, leading resource for all things be tob so anybody who's looking toinnovate in sales training, sales, technology, sales recruiting, really all things aroundbe tob sales, and we won't. We we definitely started in the youknow, tech vertical and a lot of things were applicable to people sellinginto tech companies, but we want to continue to expand to new verticals.So you'll start seeing content on salesacer shortly that is not just tech specific,but you know fire. I think it's finance, real estate, insurance.There's some other verticals, manufacturing, healthcare, that we want to make sure we'recoming out with innovative new content for. We think that sales as a professionhas really turned a corner. It's not, you know, gone orthe days of the aggressive, snake oil salesman and now it's the consultative,empathetic lead sale and you're starting to see people who you know would come outof Ivy League's cools and go into investment banking jobs right away go into salesjobs. It's ass companies and you know softwares eating the world and breaking intoa lot of these different verticals and we want to be able to support thegrowth of this profession beyond just, you know, the tech companies that existright now. So you'll start to see that that content expand. But youknow, we're here supporting a lot of different ways. We have conferences,webinars, podcasts, you know, are our blog, which is growing likecrazy, and it's been. It's been an exciting ride since we started aboutalmost five years ago. Wow, congratulations. And now, because you're you havetwo roles, we're going to give you the operator. I mean,we know what outreach does, but in your words, I guess you knowyou're the VP of marketing. We obviously tell us what outreach does, buttell us why you're so excited about the company as well. Yeah, soreally excited about the company because it's your your system of engagement or your applicationof activity, the one place you can go to do all of your prospectand customer engagement activities. It's your one single painted glass that you can dothat from, and I think that, you know, the buyer has moreoptions than ever before. There are more channels than ever before, more mediumsfor their to learn, more ways for you to connect with them, andso you have to have a platform that allows you to take advantage of allthose different modern channels. So this is modern sales. Phone and email areno longer enough and you need to be, you know, where something can integratewith a chat platform, where something where you can, you know,send somebody a one personalized video of fats the way that they like to besold to, or you can text or use, you know, linked into get through to somebody, or direct mail, all in one platform andreally optimize that over time by, a B testing the content that you're puttingout, the channel that you're doing it on and cloning your best reps.you know, if you see somebody on your team that's doing certain activities ina sequence and you know that's working, you can replicate that across the restof your team. So you really can take your team to a new levelof efficiency and I think that's that's what a sales engaging platform gives you andthat's what outreach gives you. And you know, we're, I know,the fastest growing company in the space and...

I know there's a lot of companiesout there competing with us, but it's definitely we're seeing in the market andand the response we're getting from, you know, our new customers that youknow it's really working, we're really hitting on something. Well, we're excitedand we think you've chosen some great communities to support through sponsorship as well.So we tip our hats to you. So you collective? Hell? Yeah, yeah, absolutely, my friend. While we're talking about outreach, HOUPIC, is your marketing work? Just walk us through. You know, wetalked to a lot of sales leaders and they walk up through the SDR teametc. But it's been really interesting for me to learn about how you've structuredyour marketing organization. So just give us all of how big is the team? What are the different functions that you are running as vp of marketing itoutreach. Yeah, so we're somewhere between thirty and forty. And you knowsales hackers its own team that's kind of under the marketing umbrella. So youknow, that's just overall building the sales community there. So the salesaccer teamis probably around for five in the US and then we have for in thePhilippines too and Puna India. Then we have our demand JEN team, whichactually covers ABM demandin field marketing. That's based out in San Francisco. Sothere's another I'd say like six or eight on that team. We have gota customer marketing team that's based in Seattle. We have two there. We havea product marketing team that covers communication, so a R PR product marketing.We've got a two person video team, so I'd say that whole team isabout eight as well right now. And then we have an events teamthat's another two people. So that I get all that covered. Yeah,it ends up being like thirty or forty. But you know, I was aI was in sales for a long time and obviously, you know,are deeply understanding of the salesperson and their daytoday. So we work really closelywith our sales organization. It's been a lot of fun to be on thisside of fen and be inside and working with our rvps and our sales developmentleaders and our sales off team and making sure that we are striving for anotherlevel of sales and marketing alignment. So that's our marketing team. But Ireally do feel like we are like one big revenue organization and there's there's alot of things that we're touching. I feel like I'm managing or deeply involvedin a lot of the sales process and day to day and then my mythird job outside of running, you know, sales haccer and outreach, is thefact that I'm, you know, somewhat of a brand or influential or, you know, have a network in this space. I'm brought into twodeals. You know when I can be can be helpful. Good. Well, you're often helpful. That's been my experience with you. Yeah, whatwhen we let's learn a little bit about about you, because you know yourbackgrounds interesting. You are an Entrepreneuri, started salesacer. I know that you'rean investor and advisor and a bunch of different companies, and then your VPmarketing outreach. where. Where'd you grow up? How did you get howdid we end up here? I know that you worked at you to me, but give us a little bit about your background. Yeah, so Iwas not a very good student, so I didn't know what I was goingto do with my life, but the one thing I really liked was architectureand I always want to be an architect, like building stuff. Where when yougrow up? I grew up in Long Island, Siassa awesome. Yeah, so north shore Long Island, maybe like ten twenty minutes outside of Queensspent eighteen years there. went out to Arizona State for college. Was ArchitectureMajor. was studying architecture when the housing market crash, you know, sevenhundred and eighty, and call my dad was like what do I do?Do I graduate with a degree I'M NOT gonna be able to use? SoI cash that in and said, okay, I need to do something else.So I found out there was this thing called Bachelor of Interdisciplinary Studies andit also stood for barely in school because it was really, really easy.Way To graduate is basically two minors equal major, and so I all Ihad to do is take the rest of my credits in business credits and Ican do a bis in business and design.

So while I was doing that,I started a bike share program. Want a business competition one a grantfrom the university. Ended up getting exclusive rights to commercial bike sharing, acontract signed by I think it was like the university president and the university architect. So we were really moving. But again it was right after a recessionand nobody was going to give three twenty three year olds a couple million bucksto manufacture bikes and bike racks. So that business failed. I graduated aroundthe same time and my goal was to make American money while living abroad.So I put myself in a room in my apartment for two weeks and tolda couple friends about it. Two friends who hated their jobs ended up comingout and we like locked ourselves in in this room with a bunch of redbull and out of all and five our energies and some beer and stuff andhammered out of business stuff. Yeah, and we we we sold K worthof social media, you know, a bunch of different things whatever, slaptogether in the two weeks we were there. So we're like, all right,let's let's see if this thing has legs over the next month. Weran it from from the US. But where we sell? Where were youyou? Where was this room fully out? Are All in regrette? Yeah,we were out in an Arizona, still by college, and you wereselling social meet. What do you mean? Selling Social Media? Yes, sowe were selling social media services. So remember when, like facebook hadbusiness pages and you they were all different build out, iframes and things likethat. We were doing that and we were like outsourcing the work to thePhilippines, the Dev work, and we were servicing the pages ourselves and wewere charging monthly. So we were working with like small small businesses, likerestaurant owners, residential real estate agents, things like that, and so wetook it to Costa Rica and Nicaragua for about five months and ran it fromthere. Was a lot of fun and still continuing the whole at all redbull looking thing. But let's not advocate adderall too much. Yeah, no, interesting, it definitely is. Yeah, don't go out and get a bunchof at all. But it got me through that time my life.Actually, I've been caffeine free and definitely haven't touched at all in seven years. So, wow, no caffeine for me. But but yeah, thatled me to you. To me, we were trying to teach ourselves hada had a code and you know, the Costa Rica thing was fun,but you know, I was like okay, time to get real and went upto San Francisco and, through seven hours interviews you to me, endedup getting the bed job for one of the it was the first sales hireand one of the first business development people at the company and we were smallseed Stage Company and I was there through their seed a and B rounds andthat's where I built out these processes that we called sales hacking where we werefarming out our sales development team to the Philippines using one of the earliest salesengagement software, tout APP, which I don't think exists anymore, under netMarquetto then adobe through the series of acquisitions. But we're using Keyword Seo, SeoKeyword tools to put together search strings that our virtual assistants could use togo out and find leads. Like it was really interesting stuff and I starteda meet up invite only meet up around it. Started getting a couple coolguys together to talk about all the stuff just geek out on all things sales. Ryan Buckley was one of the early guys in there and he was buildingpython scripts to scrape crunch base. We had xander Ford in there who atthe time was the head of sales at Blue Ki, which then sold theOracle for a couple hundred million and medal'sworth in there. He was at storefront. It just raised a large series a. So we met monthly with that saleshaacker group and then I went from you to me, to a companycalled the Tourney Fiattorney. Few sold to legal zoom. I didn't want tomove to Austin and switch to marketing at the time. So I retired fromthat role and said to the group at our next meet up, which happenedto be two days later, Hey, who he would be interested if we, you know, built a salesacer conference and in the room it had grownbecause we were invite only and we said only bring people at value. Inthat room we had Jason Lempin, who...

...had just sold adobe echo sign toadobe. We had Doug Landis, who is the vpsales productivity at box atthe time. We had our Mondo man, who's the Vpsales at re late Iqat the time, pre three hundred ninety million dollar acquisition to sales force. We had Matt Cameron in the room who would just taken on the VPof sales at scripted job and he was the VP worldide sales at Yammer previously. So we had some heavy hitters on there that could that could gracios stageand give us a pretty good game plan on you know, how to build, you know modern sales process. Did lemkins Steal Saster from this idea?No, no, he was doing he was doing saster Cora posts for along time, but we'll actually get to that. So so I started theconference, ran at myself. In four weeks we had three hundred people there, made K and profit and was like, Oh shit, does a business here? Like I wonder what this will look like. That was September oftwo thousand and thirteen. Ran The first conference. Then I took some timeoff to see if I, you know, wanted to go start a tech companyor be an early sales higher. See It was around and, youknow, holiday season came and went and didn't find anything that interesting. InFebruary rolled around, like let's see if I could do this in New York. So I ran the New York event. was like six weeks. Made Kon that one. I was like all right, let's let's see what'shere. Started started the blog, started webinars, made our first hire and, you know, found ways to monetize the some of the meet ups thatwe were doing. So we started like a whole meet up series and we'rejust try and throwing stuff at the wall, seeing what stuck, seeing what wasprofitable, seeing what people wanted and how they wanted to learn. Andso a year after the first conference, Jason Lemkin Ping me and he's like, Hey, want to do a conference can you help? And he's likethat's how he writes emails. Still like super short. So it's like yeah, sure, happy to hell help promote it, and he's like no,I need you to like do the work, I need you to like actually organizeit, and I was like okay, well, for the right you know, often there. Yeah, exactly, I'm at happy to do it.So we struck to do anything for money, Jason, anything exactly.Well, you know, and it was super helpful. We made. Wemade a lot of money off the SASTER relationship. That ended up helping funda lot of things on that we wouldn't been able to do for salesacker hadwe not had that and, you know, came at the right time and wewere able to focus on, you know, both salesacer and Saster forthe time that we had it. So that's how that relationship blossomed and nowhe's doing a fantastic job growing that growing that business, and he raised theFund on top of it. And and so we kept trucking with saleshacker andstarted doing the webinars. Started to realize that events were getting very saturated.It was tough, tough for us to compete with you know a bunch ofthese companies who had a lot of money to throw behind their conferences. Sowe kind of pivoted and we took the business in a direction where it wasmore digital and, you know, experimented with online training, started ramping upour webinar program launched the podcast. The podcast is even a funny story myteam. We did a poll to our audience and we asked a leading questionbecause my team really wanted a podcast. So people, of course, votedfor podcast. So I said to my team as like listen, the onlyreally the only way we're doing in a sales podcast if is if we havea different format than every other sales podcast out there and if we have theright host. And so you were my first person that I went directly toand I was like, Sam, I need if we're going to do apodcast, needed to run it, and you're like yeah, sure, let'sdo it. Well, of course. Yeah, I needed somebody who couldtalk to talk, but was also engaging, you know, and even know whoI was at that time. Yeah. Well, at that time we hadalready been, you know, friends through the New York, you know, sales texting and stuff. Right, yeah, I already knew you,but you know your your reputation precedes you, and now it's growing with the revenuecollective and you know the podcast and you know we're getting six thousand.Was Lots of way hasn't downloads a week. I man, that's really I'm good. Yeah, it's an amazing story.

I have. I want to.I want to dive deeper, because it just when you think about yourselfand you self reflect, and I know that you do it a lot.You know, you've never had a traditional career and you've always seemed to beable to, you know, the way I describe you to other people sometimesas Max is a guy that can see the matrix. You know, youyou understand how life, and specifically business, works and you understand how to takeadvantage of the mechanics of business to generate opportunity, to generate profit.What do you attribute that skill to? Is it just something that came youknow, you're doing a bike share at Asu. Is it something that comesnaturally to you? Where does it come from, this entrepreneurial spirit? Yeah, my dad likes to say that we have like part Romanian descent or whatever, so like we're part Gypsy or something like that. I don't know.I I believe it. There's like there's some level of intuition or like wisdomthat was passed down from him that I got. He's a financial visor andhe's a relationship guy and some of the things that I'm that I'm good ather like wow, I don't know where I pick this up. I don'tknow where I learned this, like a sixth sense almost. So I don'tknow how to how to teach it or how to tell people to do it. Some of those things just make sense. How did you figure out so earlyon? Your twenty three years old and you immediately are thinking about lowcost production and how you outsource things to the Philippines? What was the originof that idea? Yeah, so it's one of the things that you gotan idea that you throw at the wall and it works and you're like okay, why does this work? And then I'm like all right, well,I understand the background. Now it's like how do I leverage just? Howdo I how do I get more mileage out of this? And I thinka lot of the things that I've been successful with my life has just beena series of tests. I think that's why I like outreach so much andthat's why I like the product is because you're entire outreach is a series oftests. Is Optimizing your playbooks, it is optimizing your channels, it's optimizingover time with data, with analytics, how you do things. So youcan approach a problem from a million different ways and when you get stuck,you know you have to think of a different way. So you know,and I do. One of the reasons why I like give people career adviceso much it's because typically they're only thinking about it in one way and theyhaven't tried to turn the problem on its head. So, you know,I was with somebody the other night and I was giving them some career adviceand because they're looking for new role, they don't know what they want todo do next, but you know, they'd like this one to potentially bethe last one that they need to do. And they're like yeah, you know, I here's what I'm thinking in salary, here's how I'm thinking aboutit. was like wait a second, like if you just told me thatthis is the last role that you want to to have, then salaries notwhat you need to be thinking about. Equity is and if you're thinking aboutthis is the last role that you want to do because you want to retireafter then what is that number that you need to hit if it's successful,and in how many years? So if you're sitting there and you're saying,well, like ten after taxes is my number, that means you need tomaybe hit, you know, twelve to fifteen million on the upside. Andif you're saying, oh, I got like seven years left in me,then okay, you can join an early enough company, but here's the equitypercent that you're needing you're going to need to take at that company. AndOh, by the way, it's a huge risk, but at least youhave the shot for retirement and the next five to seven years at your number, if that's how you want to think about it. And so this personwent from thinking about like getting rich and getting to their number in salary overthe next seven years till like, oh well, this is how you're gonnado it. You know, like people don't get people build wealth and theydo you that through salaries, through high salaries. People get rich in chunks. They do that by owning pieces of things, and most people just don't. They don't think like that. There's no there's no education system that evertold them to look at things in that light and nobody ever said like hey, if you're having a problem solving something, to try and solve it backwards likethere's just there's no training on that.

But there are things you learn workingin startups, when you work with really smart people who think about otherproblems in those ways. I give you if you work with engineers or productpeople, often you'll start understanding how they think about problems and you can actuallyuse their frame of reference on other pieces of your life, like flipping theendpoint for or flipping the starting point to the endpoint when you're coming up witha solution for a problem. That's something I've learned from people running product thatstartups and now I'm using in giving career advice. It's great advice. Tellus about where did the books come from and how do those play into yourstrategy? And then I you know, I we're going to talk about thethird book, but I actually have some different questions as well about sort ofmodern marketing, because I'm sure you have some great insights, but you knowyou're running all these businesses. When did you have time I think the storyof where you wrote the book is fascinating. Your structure for how to do itis all just a perfect example of how you approach problem solving. Sowalk us through the story of writing the first book and then the next coupleof books. Yeah, so the first book was supposed to be an Ebookand I was on my way to bally. You know, when I was runningsalesacer, we were remote company, so I spent, you know,four or five years in a row doing December's over, you know, Christmasand New Year's in Asia, and writing a book in Asia is a loteasier than writing a book in the US, especially during that time of year,because you have a lot less distractions during your waking hours. You know, I'm I'm getting up in Asia when everybody's going to sleep in the US. I got eight hours uninterrupted, no emails coming in, nothing, nothingthat I have to be reactium. So it's really good place to sit downand crank. What you need to do when you show up to sit downand write that book is have a really detailed outline. So over time youkeep a google doc you keep throwing you know. Okay, here are thetwelve chapters that we're going to have, and in here are the sub chaptersand here are the subtopic because under those and then when you start, youknow, a right idea strikes, you have a another subtopic or you knowsomething you fill out under that one. What it ends up being is thislong skeleton of everything that you want to write on once you have the chanceto actually sit down and right. Where people go wrong when they write booksis like they they think they're going to have a chance to write and youcan't like write an hour at a time when you're on a roll. Yougot to stay on a roll. So it's like you have a life aroundyou writing a book, you're just never going to get it done. Soyou have to go somewhere and carve out six days, have an outline thatyou've come prepared with and just get ready and go, crank, go,crank it out, stay on a roll and write until you're not on aroll anymore. And so that's how I wrote the first book. I actuallyI built the outline on the flight over and that was like ten to twelvehours worth of work, and I sent out a type form to a bunchof different technology vendors that are included in the book and said like Hey,what would you want people to know about your product? And so I wasable to use some of that information in the book. So maybe tenzero wordsof the Thirtyzero Word Book. You know, third of the book was information Igot from the CEOS of these vendors. So now I had twentyzero words.You know. Third of the books done and the outline came out tobe I don't know, the first part of the book. First finished versionof the book was twenty seven thousand words and then ended up in editing likethirty one tho. So wrote the book in six days and Bali cranked itout self. Published it sold about thirtyzero copies after ten months. Sold therights to Wiley and I'd say if you're writing a book and you want tosell a lot of copies, you know it's good to have a newsletter likesalesacker to launch two prior second book was similar. I actually wrote each chapteras a one thousand three hundred word update in Linkedin. So linkedin updates andone three hundred words is the as the...

CAP. It is actually thirteen hundredcharacters. Sorry, and and that's the cap there. So I kept aGoogle doc of every linkedin update that I wrote on career hacking for about sixmonths and what the engagement was on those. So I knew which was my bestcontent, which to play too, and then when I went to Bolli, I built the outline, wrote the book in like three days, thirtyzerowords again and and crank it out. And this is while he owns thisone too, so that one was self published. The third one that's comingout in March is the book on sales engagement, and that one was waymore of a team effort. You know, we had a lot of customers inthere. I think you have a section in there. There's when whenyou're writing a book, especially at the the depth that we wanted to goon this subject, we want to highlight our customers and people that were we'redoing this right, like hey, don't take our word for it, likehere's how this company's doing it, here's how these people are thinking about it. In I think, like in the past, previous books, I don'tknow if the structure of like the world was there in a way where youcan get this information so easily from other people, like just everybody's on emailall the time now so when you write a book, I mean I realizethat I don't know everything, like not even fucking close. I'm not thecurse from the show. It is was, of course you're like a come on, man, I realize I don't know everything right. So, like, if I can go to an expert that's been doing that specialty longer thanI have, I want to pick their brain. I want to put thatout into the world. So that's how we think about these things, islet's get other people to chime in and lend their expertise. So career hackingis the only one that, like, is all my my expertise. Theother books, like, we definitely included snippets and things from other experts andwanted to highlight those. So the book is sales engagement, so is it? And it's a coauthor with manny as that right? Yeah, me,manny and our VP of sales, Marcsaglo, who was he was like one ofthe first sales reps for outreach, has been here since the very beginningand very science of sales driven kind of guy. So what tell us aboutthe book? What are the main, if there's three, two, five, key principles of the book? That we should take away from it.What are they? Yeah, so we're going to go really deep into Omnichannel outreach and why it's so important. So how to leverage one video chatlinkedin SMS, email, voice, direct mail, you name it, inyour sales process and kind of had to like triangulate all those things to makesure you're doing the right things for the right persona. We did a salesengagement survey with sales hacker, the bridge group and modern sales pros late lastyear and we pulled about eight hundred, and I think was eight hundred eightyfour, something like that, sales leaders and ask them about their buying preferences. And what ended up happening is we had all these breakdowns on how peoplelike to buy. So, like, if you're sung to a sales operationsperson or an operations person in general, really like anybody, and it theirdaily lives. They're sitting in front of two screens. So do you thinkcalling them or leaving a voicemail or texting them is going to be a greatway to interact with them? Know, you want to get them on oneof those screens. Where can you go to get them on one of thosescreens, personalized video email linkedin. Those are going to have a higher chanceof success with somebody like that versus a salesperson or a senior executive who livesout of their phone. So voice, any kind of phone call, VoiceMail, text message, you might have a lot higher rate of connecting withthat person if you're connecting with them on their phone. So we're going totalk about all about Omni channel outreach. We're going to talk a lot abouta be testing. We've got a lot of internal data that were releasing inthe book about kind of what we see and what our best practices are basedon. You know what the data says.

So we talk a lot about abe testing. We'll talk a lot about account based sales development, accountbased marketing and how you can really leverage at and go, you know,whale hunting, so to speak, in the modern era of sales engagement.And we'll talk about kind of managing and coaching and getting the most out ofyour reps and replicating best practices across your team. And there's so much morein there. I mean it's just talk full of actionable information in the salesengagement you know, the modern sales era and how to get them instead of, you know, engaging with customers and prospects to close new business and,you know, land expansions and up cells and everything else. So one ofthe companies that I consult for was saying that they're connect rates on cold callshave declined from eleven percent to seven percent over you know, some period oftime, six months or something like that, and it was basically and then,of course, you know, all of us are getting predictable revenue style, you know, email templates into our and then I'm you know, thethe linkedin stuff is just insane because it just has no point. You know, I came by stumbled. I love it when they say I stumbled.I stumbled across your profile and I thought we should connect. So my questionis, are you all seeing a decline in response rates? Is it harderto connect with people in general, and that's why we have to go omnichannel? Is Omni Channel? Does it break through and so you can get thesame response rates that we used to get five to ten years ago? Whatare you all seeing in terms of the effectiveness of initial sales engagement? There'sno cost to call somebody like really, I mean it's what the fractions ofpennies. If you, if, if you actually do have some kind ofsoftware that does voice minutes and there's no cost email. So both those channelsare free. Imagine how saturated they're going to be, and they're the onlyones that people are really trying right now. Linkedin was working for a while andnow that's getting saturated because people are picking up on it. So thechannels that work tend to cycle. You know, direct mail worked for along time in the advertising days and then people went to phone an email becauseit was a lot easier and it was cheaper. You have to pay forpostage or anything like that, and it was easy to do and there wasno gate, you know, no gatekeeper anything like that. You could justsend it or call it, dial it whatever. Data is so much moreavailable now than ever before and so there's it's just a lot easier to dothose things. A lot more people are going to do it. So Imeans it's saturated. So what you need to do you need to find otherways to access them. So direct mail is back. You know, youneed to get creative and you know Flinkedin's not working. You know, arethere points in which or people to which you think you can text. Is, you know, one one personalized video going to work for you? Isthat something that's going to stick out differently than, you know, the generic, you know templated email that everybody's sending? I think it's. It's really theonly way to get in now is to make sure you're leveraging a lotof these different channels. And if you're only selling to SMB's, then youneed to build more of an inbound motion. But I think for a lot ofpeople that are selling to mid mark and above, you got to gooutbound, and so the only way to get them. I don't think coldcalling is dead, but you need to have a sequence of events around yourcold call. It needs to be a call and a voicemail that an emailthat alludes to that, then a you know linkedin connection and at the sametime they get, you know, a package at their door delivered, andthen at the same time all these other things are happening, you know,over a series of days or the series of events. I think that's reallyimportant to connect it all together and to make make it actually work. Yeah, now which can do that, of course. So that's a powerful componentof the platform. Yeah, I have a another question. This is apersonal I'm not I'm trying to figure out how I should be thinking about it. So we're on Linkedin. Everybody's on Linkedin. I'm seeing more and moreof the videos where the person is sort of walking down the street or intheir Home Office in some ways, kind of like, what do you thinkabout Linkedin? That's sort of like the...

...big question. The subquestion is alot of people seem to be trying to become Gary V on Linkedin and I'mjust not, I guess, as somebody that is savvy enough and sophisticated enoughto have an informed perspective on whether the stuff works or not. What areyour thoughts on, you know, the feed, the Linkedin feed at thispoint is just is full of it feels like snake oil salesman. Sometimes itjust feels like a lot of people pushing themselves in a weird way and I'mnot even quite sure what I'm supposed to be buying from them. What areyou there's a lot of crap out there, for sure, but I think thereare also people that are trying to add value without trying to sell anything. That just, you know, here's here's here's some advice for me.In my twenty years of sales, I actually like that stuff and I thinkyou know when I wrote my first before I wrote any books, before Iwrote a blog post for sales hacker, I had a blog called Max talkshacks and I had like for blog posts cut up about some of the coolstuff I was doing at you. To me, this was really early inmy career. I was I was in nobody, you know, early salesguy at you did me, but like wasn't I didn't have a brand oranything like that. Like nobody knew me from a hole wall. But Iwas doing some cool stuff and I thought it was cool, but I didn'tknow if, like, other people would think that it was useful. Ididn't know if everybody like, Haha, we know that like this is onone stuff. I could out here a little kid, you know, andso I wrote them up, but I was really shy about getting them outthere and I remember a buddy of mine read it and he's like this isawesome, like you got to get this out there, and I was likeyeah, I don't know, I'm just like I'm just a little shy aboutit, like I'm just I don't know if I want it, if Iwant to do it's like, if it helps one person, it's worth itright, like, yeah, I guess it's good way to think about it. So I got it out there and start helping people. And I thinkit's the same thing on linkedin right now. It's like you could, you couldhold it inside or like not do anything, but if you have someadvice and you get one like or you know one person to look at itand think of that's helpful, then it's worth sharing. And I think ifyou consistently do that over time, as long as you know you're coming froma place of wanting to help people, that yeah, it's that's your righton a social network to keep sharing and sharing things that are valuable or valuedrivenor you know that can help people and you'll build a network and then thosepeople will like things and that'll be amplified and you'll we get other people intoyour funnel, and I think it's a great way to to to get peopleinto your funnel, into your sales funnel. But you have to you have toprovide value, you have to do it authentically and you have to genuinelylike doing it. Because you have to do it over a long period oftime. It's not going to just come overnight like you have to keep doingit and there's going to be a bunch of people that do it poorly onlinkedin and they're just in your feed and it sucks and you should unfollow them. But there is, you know, some circus stuff in there, butfor the most part I think it's good. I think it's amplifying people's networks andpeople are getting to know people better online and instead of having to goto conferences to do it, and you know, we're definitely taken advantage ofit at at outreach. I appreciate your perspective. I that's helpful. Weare this episode is coming out and I think it's it'll come out on Marchtwelve, which is the last day of unleash, which is the conference thatyou've spent a lot of time and energy, along with a bunch of other people, putting on this year. Just walk us through that process. Whatare you hoping comes from the conference, because you mentioned earlier right that yousalesacker, got out of the conference business and move to sort of a digitalwebinar content business. So tell us about on leash and what it's been likeand what you're proud of stuff and what you hope comes out of it.Yeah, so our goal is to build, you know, an industry conference,a conference, a sales engagement conference for the industry, not just ayou know, user conference or Customer Conference. So there are a lot of peoplewho are, you know, it's a prospects in the audience, butpeople who aren't technically outreach customers right now and are just newly interested in understandingmodern sales and sales engagement. So we...

...want to keep building up this event. We want to make sure that it feels very enterprise oriented or, youknow, White Glove high touch. We want you to come and feel likeour product feels where this was just really well put together. This is,you know, you can trust it, it's reliable, it's well done.Every you know, detail has been taken into consideration. It is a reflectionof us. So we want to make sure that everybody comes and does feellike wow, like these guys really care about what they do and we're tryingto grow it, but grow it steadily and not in a way where it'sjust like let's have every frontline Sdr there and yeah, bring twenty people fromyour company. It's like maybe later, maybe, like when it's much bigger, but for now we want to keep it director level and above sales ofalm and sales operations, you know, focus sales leadership and people who arereally want to come to learn, want to come to meet others, notsell their own you know, sell their products or anything like that. Sowe are keeping it really high quality, as you could tell from the lineup. Some amazing speakers there. I agree. Yeah, we're works at that Whimhoff, you know, the ice man as well. And Yeah, itshould be a good event we have. So March twelve will be that,and then also the day that we release the book on Sales Engagement, whichyou can find on Amazon as well. Oh, so, that's I mean. And today, if you're something out there, it's today. So goto Amazon and get is the book is called sales engagement. That's it.Yeah, exact. Cool. Okay, all right, we're almost out oftime. Max, always a great conversation with you. I want I wantto leave the audience. You have such a unique approach to life, sogive us some advice. You know, you've written a book on hacking saleson hacking careers. So one of the pieces of advice earlier you mentioned is, you know, try to solve a problem by working from the working backwards, reverse engineer the problem, starting with the outcome that you want. Butwhat are when you're advising companies, are advising people, what are the commonthemes that you keep repeating over and over that sort of form the core ofof your personal philosophy? Yeah, really depends on the situation. I think, like one of the things that that has gotten me furthest in my careeris always finding ways to help others and being as helpful as I could possiblybe with my time, being positive, being somebody on you know, ifyou see a lot of my post on Linkedin or wherever else you read mystuff, I come from a an angle of positivity, hopefulness and realness authenticity. That's, you know, hey, the the situation might not be thebest right now, but, like you know, here the things we needto do to fix it. Let's have solutions for problems and not the otherway around. So I'd say like approaching everything with that kind of like allright, let's solve it mindset. Let's compartmentalize this thing, let's break itdown and then let's attack, you know, let's find a different way. Andyou know what's the way? We could be scrappy about it. Justbecause you're at a big company doesn't mean and they have to go spend moneyon something. You know, how can we do this without spending a dollar? How do we build relationships at scale when you're at a company that's doublingyear over a year and you are stretched? Then it's like, all right,well, we need to be very creative about, you know, howwe approach things we need to do. We need to be very creative about, you know, partnering with people like you and the New York revenue collectiveand the other revenue collective locations and saying, all right, here's how, here'show we can get in front of a lot of people and provide valuefor them. And sometimes it's you have to spend a little money and sometimesit's you have to get on a plane, sometimes it's you have to spend alittle extra time on linkedin sharing nuggets of vulnerability or value or wisdom orwhatever it is to, you know, interact with your audience. And Ithink like in a lot of ways there's no easy way, but you candefinitely think outside the box. It's good advice and I think you're absolutely rightabout helping other people. I think that that is coupled with optimism. That'show you you just have to maintain that every day. Oh yeah, BusinessKarma. That's it. Man. Folks...

...are out there listening, are you? I mean you're pretty active on Linkedin, so I guess if you if theywant to reach you and interact with you, they can do that onLinkedin. They can comment on any of your post connect with you. Isthat accurate? Yeah, Linkedin's the place to find me. You get thebook coming out on Amazon under sales engagement and yeah, sure, me anin mail. I'm glad you're listening to the sales hacker podcast and you're doinga fantastic job. I think it shows in the amount of listeners we've gotin such a short amount of time and we're excited to continue making the showbetter and better and bring on amazing guests and you know, shoot me andsalmon note if you have any suggestions for guests. We're always looking to makesure that we got the best best in the brightest on right. Yeah,and we want we want more diversity. I think this is a run.It's March twelve. I think like the last four or five people have allbeen white men. So if you're out there and you've got some candidates thatreflect different walks of life, different ethnicities, different genders, please get in touchwith us, because we want to showcase diversity. Yes, definitely awesome. Max, thanks for being on the show. I'll see you soon.Thanks for having me, everybody. It's Sam Jacobs. This is Sam's cornerand we were honored to have on today's show Max Outuler, who found itsales hacker, who is an early sales employee to me, who now runsmarketing at outreach in addition to continuing to run sales hacker, and who isbeen a guest and a prominent thought leader, particularly for people new to their careershere at unleash and San Diego, but also just generally, and Maxshared a lot of really important insight, not about, you know, howto run a BDB sales team or SDR comp plans or things like that,but just how to think about your life and how to think about problem solving, and Max approaches problems by thinking about the end result and then working backwards, reverse engineering the process based on what he wants the end result to be. I think the other thing that he does is he fundamentally questions assumptions abouthow things must work, and it's really it's been impressive to watch him buildthese companies and create his own path, blaze his own path. You know, he mentioned he went to Bolli to write the first book and he wentto Bolli because, well, because it's beautiful and he's Max, but alsobecause it's on a totally different time zone and so when he woke up,everybody else was going to sleep and so he would wake up without an interruptionand write for, you know, five, six, seven, eight hours straight. He also outlined the book beforehand and cobbled together sort of user generatedcontent from all of these interviews that he'd done, and so in many waysthe book essentially wrote itself and he has a whole framework for it. Hementioned that the book is Thirtyzero words. All of these are insights into howa deconstructs some seemingly not impossible but seemingly difficult, complicated, an amorphous problems. And then the other thing I would say, just if you know Maxhas he takes the approach of questioning conventional decisions and he comes up with hisown perspectives and his own insights, and so he's created a life for himselfbased on an ability to understand how problems can be solved creatively and how valuecan be created at the enterprise and individual level and then not necessarily adhering towhat other people say or articulate the path should be. I think that's particularlyimportant in these days because careers are ever changing, we're turning over jobs moreoften than we ever have, and so it's really, really important that youdevelop your own personal framework for how to manage your life and out of proceedthrough your life, and I just I really have a lot of respect forMax and and for the work that he's done building both salesacker and this podcast, but of course just how he's managed and charted the course of his life. So I thought it was a great interview. Super excited to know himand and thanks for listening. Before we go, of course, we wantto let you know that you can share this content anywhere that you think isappropriate. We would love it if you...

...told your friends. We would lovethat if you shared with other folks. We would love it if you boughtthe new sales engagement book, which I believe is out as of this recording. That is published in conjunction without reach and with Manny Medina. I thinkis a big contributor to the CEO of outreach. And then finally, ofcourse, we want to thank our sponsors for the episode. Big Shout outto chorus, the leading conversation intelligence platform, and outreach, the leading sales engagementplatform. Thanks so much for listening. Hope you enjoyed this episode. Hopeyou made it to unleashed in San Diego and if you didn't, wewill see you next year. But thanks so much for listening and I'll talkto you next time.

In-Stream Audio Search

NEW

Search across all episodes within this podcast

Episodes (355)