The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

48. The Secret to Amazing Sales Engagement- Insight and Tactics w/ Max Altschuler

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This week on the Sales Hacker podcast, we talk to Sales Hacker founder and VP of Marketing at Outreach, Max Altschuler.  Max is a two-time author known for building intelligent and scalable businesses and joins us to discuss the new book, Sales Engagement and share some of the insights and tactics that are being adopted to deliver best-in-class revenue growth and sales team performance.

One, two, one, three, three, hey everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the salesacker podcast. I am the founder of the revenue collective. We are the exclusive community for commercial executives at growth companies all over the world. WE'RE IN DENVER, New York, Boston, London, Toronto, Amsterdam. Those are official cities, but we've been signing up people, sales leaders, commercial leaders, marketing leaders, from all over. Some of the folks include Kyle Lacy, the VP of marketing lessonly he's based in Indianapolis, Kyle Heron, who who's running a sales team for mind Jim. He's based in Houston, a group of people from Calgary and western Canada. So if you're a sales leader out there, commercial leader or a marketing leader, VP leveler above, we don't we don't currently permit folks that are below the VP level, but if your VP leveler above, reach out to me over linkedin and we'll see if we can get you involved. It's really an incredible an incredible community that's been growing by leaps and bounds. But that's not the point today. The point is the salesacker podcast and the fact that we've got Max Altshuler, the founder of sales hacker, on the show, and I think you want to listen to Max not just for sales advice but for life advice. Max Has a unique perspective on how to live your life, how to build your life, how to solve problems and how to work backwards from your goals, and he thinks about things in a very engineering, systematic way that, frankly, I find very, very inspiring. And of course we're here at on leash and to day we are releasing, or at least this week, the the new book that Max has written, I think, coauthored with many Medina, the CEO of outreach, all about sales engagement. I think it's called actually sales engagement, and so we want you to pick up that book at Amazon, but also we want you to listen to this amazing interview. Now, of course, today's show has sponsors and we must thank our sponsors. They are our corporate overlords. They pay the bills, so bills must be paid and, as Chara says from the real housewives of Atlanta, love don't pay my bills, but these particular sponsors do pay our bills. The first is, course, Ditai, the leading conversation intelligence platform for high gross sales teams. Chorus records, transcribes analyzes business conversations in real time to coach reps on how to become top performers. With CORUS DOT AI, more reps meet quota, new hires, ramp faster, leaders become better coaches and everyone in the organization can collaborate over the actual voice of the customer. So check out CORUs DOT AI forwards sale soccer to see what they're up to. And our second sponsor is our friendly neighborhood outreach, the leading sales engage platform. Outreach support sales reps by enabling them to create communications at large scale that still retain authenticity, vulnerability and humanity. So that's really, really important. They also automate a lot of the crap work that eats up selling time and they provide action oriented tips using data on what communications are working best. So outreach has the back of the folks that are working on sales and customer engagement. So those are our great sponsors. We thank you for listening. We've got Max on the show right now and without further ado, let's listen to Max all Schiller, founder of sales hacker, VP of marketing and outreach, CO author of sales engagement, the book, and let's listen to how he approaches building a career, hacking sales, hacking his career and managing his life. Thanks for listening. Hey, everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome back to the sales hacker podcast. Today we have a very, very special guest because we have the founder of sales hacker on the show, Max Alt Schiller. I don't have a full bio in front of me, but I'll tell you this about Max. He's currently VP of marketing an outreach. He started sales hacker years ago from nothing, built it up into a business, was then acquired by outreach. It's still an independent entity. Earlier in his career he worked at you to me, and he's also written a few books. The first one, I believe, was hacking sales. I think the second one is called hacking careers, if I'm not mistaken. He'll correct me, and he's got a third book coming out that we're going to talk about in the show, and he's also just an incredible entrepreneur and so we're excited to have them on the show. Max, welcome to the show. Thanks...

...for having me. Yeah, the second book is career hacking. Career Hacking, okay. And then what's the we're going to talk about it later. But what's the name of the third book? Sales engagement. All right, we love sales engagement. It's importantly it. All right. So baseball card time, Max, your name is Max all Schiller. Where you work in these days? So still see of sales hacker. So completely separate entity from outreach. But VP of marketing at a reach also. We keep a hard wall up, as you can tell from being a sales happer hacker subscriber. Are Marketing Automation and CRMS are completely different. Teams are separate. So working on both of those right now to full time jobs. You're like much to McCall. It Jack Jack Dorsey. It's a lot of fun's actually. I wouldn't have it any other way. All right. So we know what sales hocker is and we know what outreaches but it's always good to hear it from the perspective of somebody that started that company or works there. So first, salesacker. How would you describe salesacker? Yes, leading resource for all things be tob so anybody who's looking to innovate in sales training, sales, technology, sales recruiting, really all things around be tob sales, and we won't. We we definitely started in the you know, tech vertical and a lot of things were applicable to people selling into tech companies, but we want to continue to expand to new verticals. So you'll start seeing content on salesacer shortly that is not just tech specific, but you know fire. I think it's finance, real estate, insurance. There's some other verticals, manufacturing, healthcare, that we want to make sure we're coming out with innovative new content for. We think that sales as a profession has really turned a corner. It's not, you know, gone or the days of the aggressive, snake oil salesman and now it's the consultative, empathetic lead sale and you're starting to see people who you know would come out of Ivy League's cools and go into investment banking jobs right away go into sales jobs. It's ass companies and you know softwares eating the world and breaking into a lot of these different verticals and we want to be able to support the growth of this profession beyond just, you know, the tech companies that exist right now. So you'll start to see that that content expand. But you know, we're here supporting a lot of different ways. We have conferences, webinars, podcasts, you know, are our blog, which is growing like crazy, and it's been. It's been an exciting ride since we started about almost five years ago. Wow, congratulations. And now, because you're you have two roles, we're going to give you the operator. I mean, we know what outreach does, but in your words, I guess you know you're the VP of marketing. We obviously tell us what outreach does, but tell us why you're so excited about the company as well. Yeah, so really excited about the company because it's your your system of engagement or your application of activity, the one place you can go to do all of your prospect and customer engagement activities. It's your one single painted glass that you can do that from, and I think that, you know, the buyer has more options than ever before. There are more channels than ever before, more mediums for their to learn, more ways for you to connect with them, and so you have to have a platform that allows you to take advantage of all those different modern channels. So this is modern sales. Phone and email are no longer enough and you need to be, you know, where something can integrate with a chat platform, where something where you can, you know, send somebody a one personalized video of fats the way that they like to be sold to, or you can text or use, you know, linked in to get through to somebody, or direct mail, all in one platform and really optimize that over time by, a B testing the content that you're putting out, the channel that you're doing it on and cloning your best reps. you know, if you see somebody on your team that's doing certain activities in a sequence and you know that's working, you can replicate that across the rest of your team. So you really can take your team to a new level of efficiency and I think that's that's what a sales engaging platform gives you and that's what outreach gives you. And you know, we're, I know, the fastest growing company in the space and...

I know there's a lot of companies out there competing with us, but it's definitely we're seeing in the market and and the response we're getting from, you know, our new customers that you know it's really working, we're really hitting on something. Well, we're excited and we think you've chosen some great communities to support through sponsorship as well. So we tip our hats to you. So you collective? Hell? Yeah, yeah, absolutely, my friend. While we're talking about outreach, HOUPIC, is your marketing work? Just walk us through. You know, we talked to a lot of sales leaders and they walk up through the SDR team etc. But it's been really interesting for me to learn about how you've structured your marketing organization. So just give us all of how big is the team? What are the different functions that you are running as vp of marketing it outreach. Yeah, so we're somewhere between thirty and forty. And you know sales hackers its own team that's kind of under the marketing umbrella. So you know, that's just overall building the sales community there. So the salesaccer team is probably around for five in the US and then we have for in the Philippines too and Puna India. Then we have our demand JEN team, which actually covers ABM demandin field marketing. That's based out in San Francisco. So there's another I'd say like six or eight on that team. We have got a customer marketing team that's based in Seattle. We have two there. We have a product marketing team that covers communication, so a R PR product marketing. We've got a two person video team, so I'd say that whole team is about eight as well right now. And then we have an events team that's another two people. So that I get all that covered. Yeah, it ends up being like thirty or forty. But you know, I was a I was in sales for a long time and obviously, you know, are deeply understanding of the salesperson and their daytoday. So we work really closely with our sales organization. It's been a lot of fun to be on this side of fen and be inside and working with our rvps and our sales development leaders and our sales off team and making sure that we are striving for another level of sales and marketing alignment. So that's our marketing team. But I really do feel like we are like one big revenue organization and there's there's a lot of things that we're touching. I feel like I'm managing or deeply involved in a lot of the sales process and day to day and then my my third job outside of running, you know, sales haccer and outreach, is the fact that I'm, you know, somewhat of a brand or influential or, you know, have a network in this space. I'm brought into two deals. You know when I can be can be helpful. Good. Well, you're often helpful. That's been my experience with you. Yeah, what when we let's learn a little bit about about you, because you know your backgrounds interesting. You are an Entrepreneuri, started salesacer. I know that you're an investor and advisor and a bunch of different companies, and then your VP marketing outreach. where. Where'd you grow up? How did you get how did we end up here? I know that you worked at you to me, but give us a little bit about your background. Yeah, so I was not a very good student, so I didn't know what I was going to do with my life, but the one thing I really liked was architecture and I always want to be an architect, like building stuff. Where when you grow up? I grew up in Long Island, Siassa awesome. Yeah, so north shore Long Island, maybe like ten twenty minutes outside of Queens spent eighteen years there. went out to Arizona State for college. Was Architecture Major. was studying architecture when the housing market crash, you know, seven hundred and eighty, and call my dad was like what do I do? Do I graduate with a degree I'M NOT gonna be able to use? So I cash that in and said, okay, I need to do something else. So I found out there was this thing called Bachelor of Interdisciplinary Studies and it also stood for barely in school because it was really, really easy. Way To graduate is basically two minors equal major, and so I all I had to do is take the rest of my credits in business credits and I can do a bis in business and design.

So while I was doing that, I started a bike share program. Want a business competition one a grant from the university. Ended up getting exclusive rights to commercial bike sharing, a contract signed by I think it was like the university president and the university architect. So we were really moving. But again it was right after a recession and nobody was going to give three twenty three year olds a couple million bucks to manufacture bikes and bike racks. So that business failed. I graduated around the same time and my goal was to make American money while living abroad. So I put myself in a room in my apartment for two weeks and told a couple friends about it. Two friends who hated their jobs ended up coming out and we like locked ourselves in in this room with a bunch of red bull and out of all and five our energies and some beer and stuff and hammered out of business stuff. Yeah, and we we we sold K worth of social media, you know, a bunch of different things whatever, slap together in the two weeks we were there. So we're like, all right, let's let's see if this thing has legs over the next month. We ran it from from the US. But where we sell? Where were you you? Where was this room fully out? Are All in regrette? Yeah, we were out in an Arizona, still by college, and you were selling social meet. What do you mean? Selling Social Media? Yes, so we were selling social media services. So remember when, like facebook had business pages and you they were all different build out, iframes and things like that. We were doing that and we were like outsourcing the work to the Philippines, the Dev work, and we were servicing the pages ourselves and we were charging monthly. So we were working with like small small businesses, like restaurant owners, residential real estate agents, things like that, and so we took it to Costa Rica and Nicaragua for about five months and ran it from there. Was a lot of fun and still continuing the whole at all red bull looking thing. But let's not advocate adderall too much. Yeah, no, interesting, it definitely is. Yeah, don't go out and get a bunch of at all. But it got me through that time my life. Actually, I've been caffeine free and definitely haven't touched at all in seven years. So, wow, no caffeine for me. But but yeah, that led me to you. To me, we were trying to teach ourselves had a had a code and you know, the Costa Rica thing was fun, but you know, I was like okay, time to get real and went up to San Francisco and, through seven hours interviews you to me, ended up getting the bed job for one of the it was the first sales hire and one of the first business development people at the company and we were small seed Stage Company and I was there through their seed a and B rounds and that's where I built out these processes that we called sales hacking where we were farming out our sales development team to the Philippines using one of the earliest sales engagement software, tout APP, which I don't think exists anymore, under net Marquetto then adobe through the series of acquisitions. But we're using Keyword Seo, Seo Keyword tools to put together search strings that our virtual assistants could use to go out and find leads. Like it was really interesting stuff and I started a meet up invite only meet up around it. Started getting a couple cool guys together to talk about all the stuff just geek out on all things sales. Ryan Buckley was one of the early guys in there and he was building python scripts to scrape crunch base. We had xander Ford in there who at the time was the head of sales at Blue Ki, which then sold the Oracle for a couple hundred million and medal'sworth in there. He was at storefront. It just raised a large series a. So we met monthly with that sales haacker group and then I went from you to me, to a company called the Tourney Fiattorney. Few sold to legal zoom. I didn't want to move to Austin and switch to marketing at the time. So I retired from that role and said to the group at our next meet up, which happened to be two days later, Hey, who he would be interested if we, you know, built a salesacer conference and in the room it had grown because we were invite only and we said only bring people at value. In that room we had Jason Lempin, who...

...had just sold adobe echo sign to adobe. We had Doug Landis, who is the vpsales productivity at box at the time. We had our Mondo man, who's the Vpsales at re late Iq at the time, pre three hundred ninety million dollar acquisition to sales force. We had Matt Cameron in the room who would just taken on the VP of sales at scripted job and he was the VP worldide sales at Yammer previously. So we had some heavy hitters on there that could that could gracios stage and give us a pretty good game plan on you know, how to build, you know modern sales process. Did lemkins Steal Saster from this idea? No, no, he was doing he was doing saster Cora posts for a long time, but we'll actually get to that. So so I started the conference, ran at myself. In four weeks we had three hundred people there, made K and profit and was like, Oh shit, does a business here? Like I wonder what this will look like. That was September of two thousand and thirteen. Ran The first conference. Then I took some time off to see if I, you know, wanted to go start a tech company or be an early sales higher. See It was around and, you know, holiday season came and went and didn't find anything that interesting. In February rolled around, like let's see if I could do this in New York. So I ran the New York event. was like six weeks. Made K on that one. I was like all right, let's let's see what's here. Started started the blog, started webinars, made our first hire and, you know, found ways to monetize the some of the meet ups that we were doing. So we started like a whole meet up series and we're just try and throwing stuff at the wall, seeing what stuck, seeing what was profitable, seeing what people wanted and how they wanted to learn. And so a year after the first conference, Jason Lemkin Ping me and he's like, Hey, want to do a conference can you help? And he's like that's how he writes emails. Still like super short. So it's like yeah, sure, happy to hell help promote it, and he's like no, I need you to like do the work, I need you to like actually organize it, and I was like okay, well, for the right you know, often there. Yeah, exactly, I'm at happy to do it. So we struck to do anything for money, Jason, anything exactly. Well, you know, and it was super helpful. We made. We made a lot of money off the SASTER relationship. That ended up helping fund a lot of things on that we wouldn't been able to do for salesacker had we not had that and, you know, came at the right time and we were able to focus on, you know, both salesacer and Saster for the time that we had it. So that's how that relationship blossomed and now he's doing a fantastic job growing that growing that business, and he raised the Fund on top of it. And and so we kept trucking with saleshacker and started doing the webinars. Started to realize that events were getting very saturated. It was tough, tough for us to compete with you know a bunch of these companies who had a lot of money to throw behind their conferences. So we kind of pivoted and we took the business in a direction where it was more digital and, you know, experimented with online training, started ramping up our webinar program launched the podcast. The podcast is even a funny story my team. We did a poll to our audience and we asked a leading question because my team really wanted a podcast. So people, of course, voted for podcast. So I said to my team as like listen, the only really the only way we're doing in a sales podcast if is if we have a different format than every other sales podcast out there and if we have the right host. And so you were my first person that I went directly to and I was like, Sam, I need if we're going to do a podcast, needed to run it, and you're like yeah, sure, let's do it. Well, of course. Yeah, I needed somebody who could talk to talk, but was also engaging, you know, and even know who I was at that time. Yeah. Well, at that time we had already been, you know, friends through the New York, you know, sales texting and stuff. Right, yeah, I already knew you, but you know your your reputation precedes you, and now it's growing with the revenue collective and you know the podcast and you know we're getting six thousand. Was Lots of way hasn't downloads a week. I man, that's really I'm good. Yeah, it's an amazing story.

I have. I want to. I want to dive deeper, because it just when you think about yourself and you self reflect, and I know that you do it a lot. You know, you've never had a traditional career and you've always seemed to be able to, you know, the way I describe you to other people sometimes as Max is a guy that can see the matrix. You know, you you understand how life, and specifically business, works and you understand how to take advantage of the mechanics of business to generate opportunity, to generate profit. What do you attribute that skill to? Is it just something that came you know, you're doing a bike share at Asu. Is it something that comes naturally to you? Where does it come from, this entrepreneurial spirit? Yeah, my dad likes to say that we have like part Romanian descent or whatever, so like we're part Gypsy or something like that. I don't know. I I believe it. There's like there's some level of intuition or like wisdom that was passed down from him that I got. He's a financial visor and he's a relationship guy and some of the things that I'm that I'm good at her like wow, I don't know where I pick this up. I don't know where I learned this, like a sixth sense almost. So I don't know how to how to teach it or how to tell people to do it. Some of those things just make sense. How did you figure out so early on? Your twenty three years old and you immediately are thinking about low cost production and how you outsource things to the Philippines? What was the origin of that idea? Yeah, so it's one of the things that you got an idea that you throw at the wall and it works and you're like okay, why does this work? And then I'm like all right, well, I understand the background. Now it's like how do I leverage just? How do I how do I get more mileage out of this? And I think a lot of the things that I've been successful with my life has just been a series of tests. I think that's why I like outreach so much and that's why I like the product is because you're entire outreach is a series of tests. Is Optimizing your playbooks, it is optimizing your channels, it's optimizing over time with data, with analytics, how you do things. So you can approach a problem from a million different ways and when you get stuck, you know you have to think of a different way. So you know, and I do. One of the reasons why I like give people career advice so much it's because typically they're only thinking about it in one way and they haven't tried to turn the problem on its head. So, you know, I was with somebody the other night and I was giving them some career advice and because they're looking for new role, they don't know what they want to do do next, but you know, they'd like this one to potentially be the last one that they need to do. And they're like yeah, you know, I here's what I'm thinking in salary, here's how I'm thinking about it. was like wait a second, like if you just told me that this is the last role that you want to to have, then salaries not what you need to be thinking about. Equity is and if you're thinking about this is the last role that you want to do because you want to retire after then what is that number that you need to hit if it's successful, and in how many years? So if you're sitting there and you're saying, well, like ten after taxes is my number, that means you need to maybe hit, you know, twelve to fifteen million on the upside. And if you're saying, oh, I got like seven years left in me, then okay, you can join an early enough company, but here's the equity percent that you're needing you're going to need to take at that company. And Oh, by the way, it's a huge risk, but at least you have the shot for retirement and the next five to seven years at your number, if that's how you want to think about it. And so this person went from thinking about like getting rich and getting to their number in salary over the next seven years till like, oh well, this is how you're gonna do it. You know, like people don't get people build wealth and they do you that through salaries, through high salaries. People get rich in chunks. They do that by owning pieces of things, and most people just don't. They don't think like that. There's no there's no education system that ever told them to look at things in that light and nobody ever said like hey, if you're having a problem solving something, to try and solve it backwards like there's just there's no training on that.

But there are things you learn working in startups, when you work with really smart people who think about other problems in those ways. I give you if you work with engineers or product people, often you'll start understanding how they think about problems and you can actually use their frame of reference on other pieces of your life, like flipping the endpoint for or flipping the starting point to the endpoint when you're coming up with a solution for a problem. That's something I've learned from people running product that startups and now I'm using in giving career advice. It's great advice. Tell us about where did the books come from and how do those play into your strategy? And then I you know, I we're going to talk about the third book, but I actually have some different questions as well about sort of modern marketing, because I'm sure you have some great insights, but you know you're running all these businesses. When did you have time I think the story of where you wrote the book is fascinating. Your structure for how to do it is all just a perfect example of how you approach problem solving. So walk us through the story of writing the first book and then the next couple of books. Yeah, so the first book was supposed to be an Ebook and I was on my way to bally. You know, when I was running salesacer, we were remote company, so I spent, you know, four or five years in a row doing December's over, you know, Christmas and New Year's in Asia, and writing a book in Asia is a lot easier than writing a book in the US, especially during that time of year, because you have a lot less distractions during your waking hours. You know, I'm I'm getting up in Asia when everybody's going to sleep in the US. I got eight hours uninterrupted, no emails coming in, nothing, nothing that I have to be reactium. So it's really good place to sit down and crank. What you need to do when you show up to sit down and write that book is have a really detailed outline. So over time you keep a google doc you keep throwing you know. Okay, here are the twelve chapters that we're going to have, and in here are the sub chapters and here are the subtopic because under those and then when you start, you know, a right idea strikes, you have a another subtopic or you know something you fill out under that one. What it ends up being is this long skeleton of everything that you want to write on once you have the chance to actually sit down and right. Where people go wrong when they write books is like they they think they're going to have a chance to write and you can't like write an hour at a time when you're on a roll. You got to stay on a roll. So it's like you have a life around you writing a book, you're just never going to get it done. So you have to go somewhere and carve out six days, have an outline that you've come prepared with and just get ready and go, crank, go, crank it out, stay on a roll and write until you're not on a roll anymore. And so that's how I wrote the first book. I actually I built the outline on the flight over and that was like ten to twelve hours worth of work, and I sent out a type form to a bunch of different technology vendors that are included in the book and said like Hey, what would you want people to know about your product? And so I was able to use some of that information in the book. So maybe tenzero words of the Thirtyzero Word Book. You know, third of the book was information I got from the CEOS of these vendors. So now I had twentyzero words. You know. Third of the books done and the outline came out to be I don't know, the first part of the book. First finished version of the book was twenty seven thousand words and then ended up in editing like thirty one tho. So wrote the book in six days and Bali cranked it out self. Published it sold about thirtyzero copies after ten months. Sold the rights to Wiley and I'd say if you're writing a book and you want to sell a lot of copies, you know it's good to have a newsletter like salesacker to launch two prior second book was similar. I actually wrote each chapter as a one thousand three hundred word update in Linkedin. So linkedin updates and one three hundred words is the as the...

CAP. It is actually thirteen hundred characters. Sorry, and and that's the cap there. So I kept a Google doc of every linkedin update that I wrote on career hacking for about six months and what the engagement was on those. So I knew which was my best content, which to play too, and then when I went to Bolli, I built the outline, wrote the book in like three days, thirtyzero words again and and crank it out. And this is while he owns this one too, so that one was self published. The third one that's coming out in March is the book on sales engagement, and that one was way more of a team effort. You know, we had a lot of customers in there. I think you have a section in there. There's when when you're writing a book, especially at the the depth that we wanted to go on this subject, we want to highlight our customers and people that were we're doing this right, like hey, don't take our word for it, like here's how this company's doing it, here's how these people are thinking about it. In I think, like in the past, previous books, I don't know if the structure of like the world was there in a way where you can get this information so easily from other people, like just everybody's on email all the time now so when you write a book, I mean I realize that I don't know everything, like not even fucking close. I'm not the curse from the show. It is was, of course you're like a come on, man, I realize I don't know everything right. So, like, if I can go to an expert that's been doing that specialty longer than I have, I want to pick their brain. I want to put that out into the world. So that's how we think about these things, is let's get other people to chime in and lend their expertise. So career hacking is the only one that, like, is all my my expertise. The other books, like, we definitely included snippets and things from other experts and wanted to highlight those. So the book is sales engagement, so is it? And it's a coauthor with manny as that right? Yeah, me, manny and our VP of sales, Marcsaglo, who was he was like one of the first sales reps for outreach, has been here since the very beginning and very science of sales driven kind of guy. So what tell us about the book? What are the main, if there's three, two, five, key principles of the book? That we should take away from it. What are they? Yeah, so we're going to go really deep into Omni channel outreach and why it's so important. So how to leverage one video chat linkedin SMS, email, voice, direct mail, you name it, in your sales process and kind of had to like triangulate all those things to make sure you're doing the right things for the right persona. We did a sales engagement survey with sales hacker, the bridge group and modern sales pros late last year and we pulled about eight hundred, and I think was eight hundred eighty four, something like that, sales leaders and ask them about their buying preferences. And what ended up happening is we had all these breakdowns on how people like to buy. So, like, if you're sung to a sales operations person or an operations person in general, really like anybody, and it their daily lives. They're sitting in front of two screens. So do you think calling them or leaving a voicemail or texting them is going to be a great way to interact with them? Know, you want to get them on one of those screens. Where can you go to get them on one of those screens, personalized video email linkedin. Those are going to have a higher chance of success with somebody like that versus a salesperson or a senior executive who lives out of their phone. So voice, any kind of phone call, Voice Mail, text message, you might have a lot higher rate of connecting with that person if you're connecting with them on their phone. So we're going to talk about all about Omni channel outreach. We're going to talk a lot about a be testing. We've got a lot of internal data that were releasing in the book about kind of what we see and what our best practices are based on. You know what the data says.

So we talk a lot about a be testing. We'll talk a lot about account based sales development, account based marketing and how you can really leverage at and go, you know, whale hunting, so to speak, in the modern era of sales engagement. And we'll talk about kind of managing and coaching and getting the most out of your reps and replicating best practices across your team. And there's so much more in there. I mean it's just talk full of actionable information in the sales engagement you know, the modern sales era and how to get them instead of, you know, engaging with customers and prospects to close new business and, you know, land expansions and up cells and everything else. So one of the companies that I consult for was saying that they're connect rates on cold calls have declined from eleven percent to seven percent over you know, some period of time, six months or something like that, and it was basically and then, of course, you know, all of us are getting predictable revenue style, you know, email templates into our and then I'm you know, the the linkedin stuff is just insane because it just has no point. You know, I came by stumbled. I love it when they say I stumbled. I stumbled across your profile and I thought we should connect. So my question is, are you all seeing a decline in response rates? Is it harder to connect with people in general, and that's why we have to go omnichannel? Is Omni Channel? Does it break through and so you can get the same response rates that we used to get five to ten years ago? What are you all seeing in terms of the effectiveness of initial sales engagement? There's no cost to call somebody like really, I mean it's what the fractions of pennies. If you, if, if you actually do have some kind of software that does voice minutes and there's no cost email. So both those channels are free. Imagine how saturated they're going to be, and they're the only ones that people are really trying right now. Linkedin was working for a while and now that's getting saturated because people are picking up on it. So the channels that work tend to cycle. You know, direct mail worked for a long time in the advertising days and then people went to phone an email because it was a lot easier and it was cheaper. You have to pay for postage or anything like that, and it was easy to do and there was no gate, you know, no gatekeeper anything like that. You could just send it or call it, dial it whatever. Data is so much more available now than ever before and so there's it's just a lot easier to do those things. A lot more people are going to do it. So I means it's saturated. So what you need to do you need to find other ways to access them. So direct mail is back. You know, you need to get creative and you know Flinkedin's not working. You know, are there points in which or people to which you think you can text. Is, you know, one one personalized video going to work for you? Is that something that's going to stick out differently than, you know, the generic, you know templated email that everybody's sending? I think it's. It's really the only way to get in now is to make sure you're leveraging a lot of these different channels. And if you're only selling to SMB's, then you need to build more of an inbound motion. But I think for a lot of people that are selling to mid mark and above, you got to go outbound, and so the only way to get them. I don't think cold calling is dead, but you need to have a sequence of events around your cold call. It needs to be a call and a voicemail that an email that alludes to that, then a you know linkedin connection and at the same time they get, you know, a package at their door delivered, and then at the same time all these other things are happening, you know, over a series of days or the series of events. I think that's really important to connect it all together and to make make it actually work. Yeah, now which can do that, of course. So that's a powerful component of the platform. Yeah, I have a another question. This is a personal I'm not I'm trying to figure out how I should be thinking about it. So we're on Linkedin. Everybody's on Linkedin. I'm seeing more and more of the videos where the person is sort of walking down the street or in their Home Office in some ways, kind of like, what do you think about Linkedin? That's sort of like the...

...big question. The subquestion is a lot of people seem to be trying to become Gary V on Linkedin and I'm just not, I guess, as somebody that is savvy enough and sophisticated enough to have an informed perspective on whether the stuff works or not. What are your thoughts on, you know, the feed, the Linkedin feed at this point is just is full of it feels like snake oil salesman. Sometimes it just feels like a lot of people pushing themselves in a weird way and I'm not even quite sure what I'm supposed to be buying from them. What are you there's a lot of crap out there, for sure, but I think there are also people that are trying to add value without trying to sell anything. That just, you know, here's here's here's some advice for me. In my twenty years of sales, I actually like that stuff and I think you know when I wrote my first before I wrote any books, before I wrote a blog post for sales hacker, I had a blog called Max talks hacks and I had like for blog posts cut up about some of the cool stuff I was doing at you. To me, this was really early in my career. I was I was in nobody, you know, early sales guy at you did me, but like wasn't I didn't have a brand or anything like that. Like nobody knew me from a hole wall. But I was doing some cool stuff and I thought it was cool, but I didn't know if, like, other people would think that it was useful. I didn't know if everybody like, Haha, we know that like this is on one stuff. I could out here a little kid, you know, and so I wrote them up, but I was really shy about getting them out there and I remember a buddy of mine read it and he's like this is awesome, like you got to get this out there, and I was like yeah, I don't know, I'm just like I'm just a little shy about it, like I'm just I don't know if I want it, if I want to do it's like, if it helps one person, it's worth it right, like, yeah, I guess it's good way to think about it. So I got it out there and start helping people. And I think it's the same thing on linkedin right now. It's like you could, you could hold it inside or like not do anything, but if you have some advice and you get one like or you know one person to look at it and think of that's helpful, then it's worth sharing. And I think if you consistently do that over time, as long as you know you're coming from a place of wanting to help people, that yeah, it's that's your right on a social network to keep sharing and sharing things that are valuable or valuedriven or you know that can help people and you'll build a network and then those people will like things and that'll be amplified and you'll we get other people into your funnel, and I think it's a great way to to to get people into your funnel, into your sales funnel. But you have to you have to provide value, you have to do it authentically and you have to genuinely like doing it. Because you have to do it over a long period of time. It's not going to just come overnight like you have to keep doing it and there's going to be a bunch of people that do it poorly on linkedin and they're just in your feed and it sucks and you should unfollow them. But there is, you know, some circus stuff in there, but for the most part I think it's good. I think it's amplifying people's networks and people are getting to know people better online and instead of having to go to conferences to do it, and you know, we're definitely taken advantage of it at at outreach. I appreciate your perspective. I that's helpful. We are this episode is coming out and I think it's it'll come out on March twelve, which is the last day of unleash, which is the conference that you've spent a lot of time and energy, along with a bunch of other people, putting on this year. Just walk us through that process. What are you hoping comes from the conference, because you mentioned earlier right that you salesacker, got out of the conference business and move to sort of a digital webinar content business. So tell us about on leash and what it's been like and what you're proud of stuff and what you hope comes out of it. Yeah, so our goal is to build, you know, an industry conference, a conference, a sales engagement conference for the industry, not just a you know, user conference or Customer Conference. So there are a lot of people who are, you know, it's a prospects in the audience, but people who aren't technically outreach customers right now and are just newly interested in understanding modern sales and sales engagement. So we...

...want to keep building up this event. We want to make sure that it feels very enterprise oriented or, you know, White Glove high touch. We want you to come and feel like our product feels where this was just really well put together. This is, you know, you can trust it, it's reliable, it's well done. Every you know, detail has been taken into consideration. It is a reflection of us. So we want to make sure that everybody comes and does feel like wow, like these guys really care about what they do and we're trying to grow it, but grow it steadily and not in a way where it's just like let's have every frontline Sdr there and yeah, bring twenty people from your company. It's like maybe later, maybe, like when it's much bigger, but for now we want to keep it director level and above sales of alm and sales operations, you know, focus sales leadership and people who are really want to come to learn, want to come to meet others, not sell their own you know, sell their products or anything like that. So we are keeping it really high quality, as you could tell from the lineup. Some amazing speakers there. I agree. Yeah, we're works at that Whimhoff, you know, the ice man as well. And Yeah, it should be a good event we have. So March twelve will be that, and then also the day that we release the book on Sales Engagement, which you can find on Amazon as well. Oh, so, that's I mean. And today, if you're something out there, it's today. So go to Amazon and get is the book is called sales engagement. That's it. Yeah, exact. Cool. Okay, all right, we're almost out of time. Max, always a great conversation with you. I want I want to leave the audience. You have such a unique approach to life, so give us some advice. You know, you've written a book on hacking sales on hacking careers. So one of the pieces of advice earlier you mentioned is, you know, try to solve a problem by working from the working backwards, reverse engineer the problem, starting with the outcome that you want. But what are when you're advising companies, are advising people, what are the common themes that you keep repeating over and over that sort of form the core of of your personal philosophy? Yeah, really depends on the situation. I think, like one of the things that that has gotten me furthest in my career is always finding ways to help others and being as helpful as I could possibly be with my time, being positive, being somebody on you know, if you see a lot of my post on Linkedin or wherever else you read my stuff, I come from a an angle of positivity, hopefulness and realness authenticity. That's, you know, hey, the the situation might not be the best right now, but, like you know, here the things we need to do to fix it. Let's have solutions for problems and not the other way around. So I'd say like approaching everything with that kind of like all right, let's solve it mindset. Let's compartmentalize this thing, let's break it down and then let's attack, you know, let's find a different way. And you know what's the way? We could be scrappy about it. Just because you're at a big company doesn't mean and they have to go spend money on something. You know, how can we do this without spending a dollar? How do we build relationships at scale when you're at a company that's doubling year over a year and you are stretched? Then it's like, all right, well, we need to be very creative about, you know, how we approach things we need to do. We need to be very creative about, you know, partnering with people like you and the New York revenue collective and the other revenue collective locations and saying, all right, here's how, here's how we can get in front of a lot of people and provide value for them. And sometimes it's you have to spend a little money and sometimes it's you have to get on a plane, sometimes it's you have to spend a little extra time on linkedin sharing nuggets of vulnerability or value or wisdom or whatever it is to, you know, interact with your audience. And I think like in a lot of ways there's no easy way, but you can definitely think outside the box. It's good advice and I think you're absolutely right about helping other people. I think that that is coupled with optimism. That's how you you just have to maintain that every day. Oh yeah, Business Karma. That's it. Man. Folks...

...are out there listening, are you? I mean you're pretty active on Linkedin, so I guess if you if they want to reach you and interact with you, they can do that on Linkedin. They can comment on any of your post connect with you. Is that accurate? Yeah, Linkedin's the place to find me. You get the book coming out on Amazon under sales engagement and yeah, sure, me an in mail. I'm glad you're listening to the sales hacker podcast and you're doing a fantastic job. I think it shows in the amount of listeners we've got in such a short amount of time and we're excited to continue making the show better and better and bring on amazing guests and you know, shoot me and salmon note if you have any suggestions for guests. We're always looking to make sure that we got the best best in the brightest on right. Yeah, and we want we want more diversity. I think this is a run. It's March twelve. I think like the last four or five people have all been white men. So if you're out there and you've got some candidates that reflect different walks of life, different ethnicities, different genders, please get in touch with us, because we want to showcase diversity. Yes, definitely awesome. Max, thanks for being on the show. I'll see you soon. Thanks for having me, everybody. It's Sam Jacobs. This is Sam's corner and we were honored to have on today's show Max Outuler, who found it sales hacker, who is an early sales employee to me, who now runs marketing at outreach in addition to continuing to run sales hacker, and who is been a guest and a prominent thought leader, particularly for people new to their careers here at unleash and San Diego, but also just generally, and Max shared a lot of really important insight, not about, you know, how to run a BDB sales team or SDR comp plans or things like that, but just how to think about your life and how to think about problem solving, and Max approaches problems by thinking about the end result and then working backwards, reverse engineering the process based on what he wants the end result to be. I think the other thing that he does is he fundamentally questions assumptions about how things must work, and it's really it's been impressive to watch him build these companies and create his own path, blaze his own path. You know, he mentioned he went to Bolli to write the first book and he went to Bolli because, well, because it's beautiful and he's Max, but also because it's on a totally different time zone and so when he woke up, everybody else was going to sleep and so he would wake up without an interruption and write for, you know, five, six, seven, eight hours straight. He also outlined the book beforehand and cobbled together sort of user generated content from all of these interviews that he'd done, and so in many ways the book essentially wrote itself and he has a whole framework for it. He mentioned that the book is Thirtyzero words. All of these are insights into how a deconstructs some seemingly not impossible but seemingly difficult, complicated, an amorphous problems. And then the other thing I would say, just if you know Max has he takes the approach of questioning conventional decisions and he comes up with his own perspectives and his own insights, and so he's created a life for himself based on an ability to understand how problems can be solved creatively and how value can be created at the enterprise and individual level and then not necessarily adhering to what other people say or articulate the path should be. I think that's particularly important in these days because careers are ever changing, we're turning over jobs more often than we ever have, and so it's really, really important that you develop your own personal framework for how to manage your life and out of proceed through your life, and I just I really have a lot of respect for Max and and for the work that he's done building both salesacker and this podcast, but of course just how he's managed and charted the course of his life. So I thought it was a great interview. Super excited to know him and and thanks for listening. Before we go, of course, we want to let you know that you can share this content anywhere that you think is appropriate. We would love it if you...

...told your friends. We would love that if you shared with other folks. We would love it if you bought the new sales engagement book, which I believe is out as of this recording. That is published in conjunction without reach and with Manny Medina. I think is a big contributor to the CEO of outreach. And then finally, of course, we want to thank our sponsors for the episode. Big Shout out to chorus, the leading conversation intelligence platform, and outreach, the leading sales engagement platform. Thanks so much for listening. Hope you enjoyed this episode. Hope you made it to unleashed in San Diego and if you didn't, we will see you next year. But thanks so much for listening and I'll talk to you next time.

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