The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

52. Why Your Company Needs Sales Coaching and Training to Drive Up Retention w/ Rob Jeppsen


This week on the Sales Hacker podcast, we interview Rob Jeppsen, CEO of XVoyant and Host of the Sales Leadership Podcast.  Rob is a longtime sales veteran and is incredibly passionate about both the profession of sales but, more importantly, the importance of investing in your team through sales coaching and training.  

One, two, one, three, three, hey folks at Sam Jacobs, welcome to the sales hacker podcast. We have a great guest on the show this week, someone I got to know over the past couple weeks at unleash and I'm also going to be I was because this is happening in the future, on his podcast this week. His names Rob Jepson. He is the CEO of x Voyante. He is a long time and well respected sales leader and he's going to talk to us about the importance of sales coaching, which is so important and so critical and so many so much of the time we don't do a good enough job at it or we're doing the wrong things, focusing on activities but not focusing on the Rep and rob encourages us to focus on Peda, which is purpose driven activity, so focusing on the right activities, not just all activities in general. Now, before we do that, we've got a new sponsor on the show. So our first sponsor is show pad. Show pads the leading sales enablement platform for the modern seller. So show pads all in one platform and power sales and marketing teams to engage buyers through industry leading training and coaching software and innovative content and engagement solutions, using the most comprehensive data on successful sales interactions. Show pad fuels ai to discover, replicate an automate what works for top performer. So learn more at show padcom forward sales hacker. You know our second sponsor. Our second sponsors outreach. They are the leading sales engagement plat form. Outreach support sales reps by enabling to humanize their communications at scale, from automating the soul sucking manual work that eats up selling time to providing action Orient two tips on what communications are working best. Outreach has your back. Finally, we want to thank some of the fans that have been writing in and listening to the show. Mark Pruett, the CEO at virtual facility, thank you for reaching out. Corey paying at Jamalto, Anthony Franklin, who thinks it's an amazing podcast, Philip Stockau from Germany, Caitlin Tissington, Turner, Solomon Lictor, Brendan McAdams, Steve Rice, Brendan Barka and Fernando Murasiva. Gracias, so stead. Thank you very much for everybody that's listening. We Really, really appreciate it and without further ado, let's listen to Rob Jepson, CEO of xvoyant and an incredible force in the sales world. Hey, everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the salesaccer podcast. We've got an incredible guest today. We've got Rob Jepson and rob is a career sales leader and also the founder and CEO is own company. So let me give you a quick bio and then rob will fill in all the blanks and we're going to have a great conversation. A lot of it focus on how to run along on one and how to do sales coaching the right way. So Rob Jepson is founder and CEO of x Floy and it's a sales leadership tech platform and they're committed to helping organizations develop world class sales leaders. Now, before forming xvoyant just around three years ago, he worked at higher view a senior vice president and general manager of higher view coach. Before that he was svp of sales for Zions Bank for ten years. In that capacity he led seven hundred sales people across seven lines of business, organized over fifty sales teams and was responsible for sales targets exceeding over three billion dollars and then, prior to that, I think he founded and sold to companies. He's been recognized and received a ton of awards, including fifteen gold and silver stevie awards from the American Business Association and including categories sales leader of the year, sales process of the year, sales team of the year, sales curriculum of the year, Sales Coaching Program of the year and in addition to that, I think he received the first sales force surfboard. Work as a sales leader that best you sales for us to win new business in a large ender price category. So, rob welcome to the show. Yeah, I'm just going to head you drop the MIC. I can't live up to that. Sam, thanks for having me. Yeah, wrote it. I'm a big fan of the show. I'm honored to be on the phone on be on your podcast with you today. Thank you for inviting me. Well, we're super, super excited to have you. So you're a wellknown speaker in the space and you're fine around the country doing s...

Kos and telling us about how to how to do things better and do things right. So we want to talk about that. Tell us about xvoyant. You know, you walk me through both the name, but give us a little bit of background on the company, what you all do and and why he founded it. Yeah, so I founded this company because I was a sales leader that worked in a large organization. You know, I had a lot of Reps. we are geographically dispersed, and I was the person who bought sales force and I had my boss tell me what. We spent over a million dollars on a piece of TAF. Said, if this doesn't work ahead, it's going to have to roll rob and I promise you it will not be mine. And I mean, okay, that Cottlem my attention. And so I needed a tool because as much as I love sales force, and they're great partner of mine to this day, they were, they're awesome at helping me get sales force up and going. But when it was done, I remember this feeling of okay, what do I do now with this giant sales team I have? What do I have? My managers do different Sam I just I didn't know what. There's one golog some calls, I guess. Go put your opportunities in. I just I didn't feel like I had a clear line of sight on what do my managers do differently? So I have to go and I started exporting the last off invented a lot of coaching models and we'll talk about it, but I knew that the secret was, can my sixty sum managers, of those hundreds of reps, those sixty teams with multiple managers, can we help them know how to lead better? Because that's where your lever is when you have a team, if your managers are leading eight to twelve people. I needed them to be just as equipped as my reps were. And if you think about that, everybody's equipping reps and we aren't equipping managers. So I naually did it. It worked awesome. We got to the point where seventy six percent of our team was hitting goal. We set six records in a row, and then sales force wasn't. Told me you should start a business around this, and so today I have a tool that lives native and sales force and it transform sales force from a system of record to a system of action, system of improvement, and it's all around saying can in the one on one we predict what one activity or one skill we should modify and, more important, what's it worth to that rep? And I built it because I needed it. It's been awesome. We've been growing fast. We live heavily in the text space, we live heavily in the financial institution space, we live heavily in the manufacturing and industrial space. Got A lot of neighbor of customers, you know. And the name of our company is fine because it's plain words. At Clair winnet as a magic person that could predict the future. Sam. Nobody needs to predict the future more than a sales leader. Right. We listen. I feel that pressure still. I remember what I felt I'd have to go report to Wall Street if we're going to hit or if we're going to miss. But I believe there's no magic required to predict the future and sales. If you understand execution, you can predict through execution and create what we refer to as an exployent system, and that's what we do. We help sales leaders become very predictable with every single rep on their team and we answer one question. Saying that, I think we'll set up a fun conversation. I love asking sales leaders. What's your plan to have every single rep on your team improved by at least ten percent. Do you have that plan? And if you do, you'll grow by way more than you ever expected. So this is fascinating. You're talking about you put this manual process in place, and I mean walk us through a how to do it. I think to your point, there's eye coach or tell people you know everybody deserves a weekly one on one. I try not to have everyone on one be about, you know, pipeline and let's review it each deal, but you know, alternate between that and individual coaching and then also individual motivation and personal development. But tell us how we're supposed to be doing. Well, everybody's different. Along the things I have learned Sam is one size does not fit all, and if someone says there's one way of doing doing it, no matter who you are, my first advice is run like hell, get away from those people. I believe that that it's going to come down to a lot of things, but the one thing that we always thought we should always make sure we do is, I believe that consistency is the key. So I love how you said that you believe every should have a weekly one on one. I believe that frequency is the first place that we miss. We get inconsistent on frequency. We also get inconsistent on focus and, for example, Sam,... of the problems that I see happen most often and is what what do you do with your guys that are crushing, your people that are crushing, when you have a high performer that's smoking the goal? What's the what do you think not going to say you, what do you think the natural inclination for a large majority of sales leaders would be? I would say the natural inclination is don't do anything at all and kind of leave them alone. You're in a oneonone and you're just sort of like stroking their ego and telling them how great he or she is, if you even have it. You know what I see happen all the time, Sam. They say, Hey, you're you're crushing right now. I'll catch you next time. I see that all the time, and so I think the first thing we have to do is say coaching is not about who's good or WHO's bad. That's one of the first mistakes that I see, Sam. It's not about being a fixer. Coaching and the one on one. Fact we should talk about what the were coaching even means. I actually am starting to run from it a little bit because it has so many different connotations to people. The Wall one is about that individuals development, and if it's only there because something's broke, then you have really missed the boat. And so I believe that consistency should be about, yes, frequency, but also focus, and it should be the safest meeting of Rep Pass. I always love to ask my leader, Sam, to say, think about all the meetings your reps have every week, every month, every quarder. How many of them are one hundred percent about them and where they want to take their performance in their career? Well, this is the only one. The answer is very, very few. Yeah, so you better. So that's that's first thing for all. Because here's the second thing that I see Sam too many times. The one on one is looking backward. It's what happened since we met last. Here's a great rule of thumb. Ninety percent of the time in a one on one should be about the future and only ten percent about the pass. If your oneons, how are your wrongs? Are Your people? Forty five minutes typically. Okay, so let's call it thirty minutes, because I it's easier math. For me or or sixty minutes. I I start doing if I can Tuesday. I'm if I'm good at conditions. Brother. And so if you have a thirty minute one, you got three minutes to talk about what happened and and twenty seven minutes talk about what you're going to do next. And I think that that's a big mistake, because we ambush people with data. We make people feel like they are here to defend what they've accomplished. This should really be a strategic planning session that's about getting where the company wants them to go, getting, more important, where they want to go themselves and creating individual plans for individual people. I think there's way too many spreadsheet leaders that think it's as simple as reverse engineering, number of calls, number of Demos, etc. And so that's part of it. You got to work hard enough and anybody that tells you work smart or not harder, I think is full of Shit. I think that you got to work smart and hard and the one on one should be the time where you sit down and collaborate and say, how good can you really get? And let's get there together. Well, okay. And so what are the processes or what are the philosophies are? What are the systems that you've built into ex voyant to help managers do that? All right, so we have a really, really civil framework that I think that I think there will be fun for us to discuss and the managers that are on this podcast listening. I think that this is a really easy way to have your oneone framework be relevant. I think one of the problems that we have SAM is everyone has different chat and different spots. You know, we tried it. We tend to treat everyone the same. It's like you said, this will be the pipeline meeting. We're going to have this career develop on the meeting. I think that it's a here's a really civil way start. I call it raiser are as. R Kay, start with results. It's really easy. We use results because we don't coach the results, but we use results to identify what we should be talking about. If that makes sense and it's really simple. Are you on track for what the company wants? It's an easiness or no. They don't need you to tell him the answer. Our Tech will help with that. Anybody's tech will help with that. But you want to use us a tool to identify very quickly. How far ahead are you? How far behind you? So...'s not a defensive conversation, it just is what it is. That leads to the second results Orient a type question. Are you want to tres? So if you're doing what the company wants, then if that's yes, then are you are tracked to accomplish your own personal goals? If that's yes, then we have to have a way to quantify process, and artech qualifies process. Will talk about that in a minute. Does the process say you're there to stay? So are you hitting what the company wants? If you ask, are you hitting what you want? If that's yes, does process that you're going to stay there, or do you have trouble looming on the horizon? If all of those are yes, Sam, what kind of up are we talking about? or I would assume we're talking about a great rep yeah, what are the best in the company? So that how hard was that? By the way? That's crazy, right. Yeah. So then the structure then turns into this how good can you get? And we have a few things that we model related to what's the rounding are worth on activities for you? Or we look at volume data, conversion data, and we say, what are the rounding errors and how do we change skills or activities to help you benefit from those things? Maybe it's time to start fishing in different fishing holes and going to larger deal sizes. Maybe, instead of starting five point three starts in a week. What would happen if you rounded that to six? What is that worth to you? By playing what if games of dollars, you'll be blown away. How much the stars appreciate someone taking them away from the intensity of the things they got to do for the day and saying this is what it's worth to make a small change. So that's fun. said the category, woman, how good can you get? Conversation is the funnest one and it's the one that is most often missed, because sales leader say, when someone saying yes all those things, I'm just going to leave them alone, which makes it really easy to quit. Just between you and me, let's go back through to the results. If any of those are know, I'm missing what the company wants, I'm missing what I want for myself or processes. I'm going to stay nearly go and we say let's look at the process. Process can be strong or process can be weak. Here's what we've modeled. Sam that eliminates eighty percent of the variance of sales. Okay, and you think it's be to be, and this is fairly general, but you can see how you can model it. You can calculate the Dolt, the number of dollars that erup should have in the pipeline, really simply by saying bold divided by win right. That tells you how many dollars you should be change chasing. That's easy, right. I mean no magic to that. Then if you divide that dollar amount by their average deal size, you can also know how many deals should it be in the pipeline. And then we should use tech to derive what's their win with, what's their cycle time look like from start to close and by stage? So if we can look at and say you're either greater than or less than what you should be on dollars of the pipeline, you're either greater than or less than and deal flow of the pipeline and you're faster or slower than where you need to be. If you get those three things, dollars, deals to speed right, we've modeled it. It eliminates eighty percent of the variants in sales. There's still twenty percent. Shit just happens. But if you get those things, it's right. Start enough with enough, fast enough. You get tons of consistency. And so we look at that and we say, if someone's process says, yes, I have those three things working for me, then we have someone with a great engine working for them and we're going to tune their deals. So that's category. To tune the deals. We look at stall deals and we look at must win deals and we look at miss categorized deals. I'll tell you how to do that. A second, well, three, conversation is if your process is week, then you got to tune your sales engine. There's only four persons I heard you talk about and you're familiar with the sales equation. You know the set that formulas number of opportunities multiplied by average deal size, multiplied by win rate divided by length of sale cycle. If your process is week, you got to do activities that pump up the engine, tune the engine. If your engine is fine, then you got to tune the deals, and the way we do that as by focusing on verifiers rather than just sales activities. And what you find is you have three coaching conversations. How good can you get? Tune the deal, tune the engine, and it makes it so every coaching conversation is a hundred percent relevant about getting where they want to go, not just for the company wants me to go. Okay, that's that's the funt. So how... you? I guess one of my observations is sometimes, you know, we talk in numbers, right, like win rate and sale cycle length and all of these things, but if like to the point of if you got five point three new opportunities a week or five point three meetings a week, and what would happen if you got it to six? And I guess the implication there is that it's it's that easy as tweaking a number, when in fact the numbers or reflection of like a set of embedded behaviors. It's how do you change behavior to affect all of the output metrics that fall into a spreadsheet really nicely? That's a fantastic question, because it's not as easy as just modeling on a spreadsheet, but it starts with that. You want to first say, is our effort like consistent with people that are in that zone? One of the things that we've learned saying that we always are tech does. I learned a long time ago that just simple stack ranking has just not an effective leadership tool. It's a fine reporting tool, but it doesn't really help people decide to improve that. We've never had more business intelligences solutions ever, and you've probably seen it the numbers coming from people like Jim Dickie and others. The percentage of upshitting goal is falling. It's not growing, it's falling, even with all these do data tools. So you're right, data doesn't make people change. People do. And so we surround those numbers with what are the activities that drive it? But more important, what are the skills so called? That skill to success? You know, every outcome that you track is driven by s an activity that you do, like poll it dials or emails or demos or whatever it is, and then those are going to be effective or not effective based on the skills that you exhibit during the conducting of that activity. You know, maybe it's questioning skills, maybe it's the way you handle objections, maybe it's the way you like. Something as simple as the way you deliver a proposal, we found can drive a massive swing and wind rates and cycle times. You know, one of the dumbest things I see people do is they just email it over, they running up the flag pole and hope someone salutes right and and best, you know, are we have customers that they do simple things like say you never email a proposal again. You get them on the phone and when they're on the phone with you, then you email it when they're on and you walk them through it and arrange next steps. That's a thing that can be done in coaching, though, because they can look at that way. The delivery was on on different things and you coach to the skills to make it sure that the skills become more effective. So numbers do identify a if they're working hard enough, but numbers also identify Sam where their skills are, because the conversions will map to well defined skills that you, in the one on one can then create observable moments and say these are the skills. And that's what I really love is numbers give you content, but the coach creates the context, and that's why you've got to have killer one on ones because it makes us so a rep knows that they're more than just a number, that they've got to return and they're more than just a placeholder on a spreadsheet. And if you segment your team instead of just stack, rank your team into different categories. We call them core, high core and star core, lowcore and poor, and you can say, show me how a star works, even though on low core, and I'm going to model that behavior. I'm going to work as hard as they are first and they're going to get my conversions to look like those ones, because I'm going to start intentionally changing skills. Then you start creating what we call purpose driven activities. We have that. We call it PDA. Instead of just more activities, add purpose to it, Sam. That's where a coach's job is, is to help them add purpose. Don't just go through motions and fill out sales for supports. freaking have purpose to what you do, and a great one on one should both ignite something that was dead before and inspire someone to say I have reason to want to be better than I am. And if you do those things you'll be blown away that how much adding purpose to an activity could change the result. So how do you add purposed what's an example of a purpose driven activity? Okay, so let's talk about to to the deal. Let's pretend we have six...

...sales stages and most of the time here's what we see. Sam, I'll be extrew your take because I mean you talked to tons of sales leaders as well. A sales person will say, well, I do these three or four activities in Stage one and then I get to go to stage two and I do these three activities and I go to stage three and I do these thing goes stage wortcer, etc. And I'll get to the point where I have a deal that they keep saying is and commit, it's going to close. It never freaking closes. And you know, you already know that. Forty six percent is what the forecasted deals close last year. And if I did not know that, that's a great stat forty six and of the committed deals that reps, committed to the pipe, to the forecast closed. Yes, that's right. Last year things are commit only forty six percent close. Odds in Vegas willing at crabs forty nine. So your chance is winning in Vegas are higher on the craps table than getting your commits to goose. That's depressing statistic, I'm sure, in Vegas. Let's see you at the table Sam. How do we get? How to we move up forty six percent number. So everybody talks about things like exit criteria, but here's the problem with using the term exit criteria as a criteria. Is still interpreted by rap that well, if I've done this, then I have the egite criteria. I we believe in our point of view and Wi we help our customers build is that unique customer verified outcomes. We refer to them as verifiers. Everybody can have a different name for it, but think of it as a toll booth Sam where the toll has to be paid by the customer. So the REP does these three things, but they have to get this from a customer. It's got to be something that you can say I hear it is. So, for instance, you may have needed maybe you have. You have some information you've got to get for them, or maybe you have one of our customers out there right now. They have it. They put together a close plan at a very specific stage. They actually put together a closed plan where they say we're going to do this, the champion says we're going to do this, and when the champion sets like emails them. They're part of the clothes plan. All of a sudden there win rights changed. So they made that a verifier. They needed the customer set closed plan and purpose dri of an activity would be I need to talk to the customer, not to have a call. I need to talk to the customer and get them to give me the clote. They're part of the closed plan and so you set a coaching go around that you collaborate with them on how to do that. I'll tell you a company who does a really great job. I'll give you a shout out of one of our customers is adobe. Adobe does is a great job at having verifiers. We're working with Jake renny and Keith Messenger on their team over there and they've done a great job at having really well defined customer verified outcomes that they use as the trigger for advancing stages. That's a really good purpose drive an activity. Here's another example. Sometimes it's it is a simple ass. You know what you'll Sam. You're my boss. You say, rob you are the most prolific email or on the team. You do two xmore emails and anybody on the team, but you only have one ten of the prospect calls or Demos. I want you to slow down the emails and we're going to start setting goals around more prospect calls. So you're going to have to develop some skills. Now we're going I want to help you with your targeting, I want to help you with your messaging, but we're going to become a lot more intentional on this motion. Instead of just saying I'm winning the email battle, what I want to do is have you start being far more effective on this activity. So adding purpose to fuel the engine, adding purpose to get verifiers. It really is around. Think, do we understand the activities that either fuel the engine or create verifiers to advance the deals, and looking at those individually in the one on one is what makes that one on one so relevant. You do it that way, Samuell, never feel like it's micromanagement, because you're talking about things that take them from current state the future state, which is the biggest place that coaches miss. They try to be fixers rather than enablers for going from good to grade or great to Mars, or sometimes from Shit to acceptable, shit to acceptables good. Yeah, well, I have a you know you mentioned there. What was the stat that you mentioned that? You know that, I guess...

...number of reps hitting goal is falling and continues to fall. And now that, of course, is a function of where you set the goal. But there's all there's a bunch of other factors, and some of the factors are the quality of the products that the reps are selling and some of them are the expansion or contraction of the market and went into which they're selling into. Another factor might be the growth of competitors. My question for you, rob is what how much Delta do you think there is in I mean, I guess you wouldn't have started a business without it, but give us your perspective. How Much Delta is there in coaching the right way, managing the right way? How much more performance do you think we can get out of? You know, the global sales community. I can only give you what I've experienced, and I wouldn't be bold enough to say that I'm the know it all. I would say guys like Jim dicky and Tamara Shank that do this kind of research all the time. They you know, those are two good follows. They study this in depth. Here's what I've seen, though. Here's again what my customers have experienced. Who yet, we have still not yet had a customer not experienced double digit growth in percentage of people hitting goal. One of them more dramatic ones. Here's a great story, and you're right, there are a ton of things. We had a team that joined on with us. They beat their goal by twenty percent that year and they were in hi five mode. Here's the problem, though, Sam. They did it with only twenty two percent of their team hitting goal. So I twenty eight year rule was alive and well and the president of the company bought from us because he said, I'll never forget the quote, he said, I need a bigger return on the rest of the team than Cotwo on the air they breathe. And so we helped them start having one on ones that were purpose driven with that razor format. And everybody's setting goals at every every two weeks. They're setting a different goal of what they're trying to intentionally improve. And we're the only company that measures coachability. That's another interesting dynamic. When your reps know that you're measuring their coachability, they're the ones that are setting their goals, they become very, very involved in setting that goal because they want to make sure that they set goals that they have a good chance on hitting because what I found you won't ever have everybody get better. Sam, you're right, some people set ridiculous goals. But what I found is if you segment it instead of saying those that are hitting goal on those that aren't, if you just say my mission is to get ten percent better, that's what we always start with. Can I find ways to get ten percent better? That's an inch. That's a very interesting question, Sam, and the bigger you are, the more powerful that question is. And if everybody has a plan that they're working on a day know in their head says I get at least ten percent better, they all know what that does for them financially. Nobody joined sales, SAM, because I wanted to suck. Our profession is attracting people that are motivated, that want to do big things with their careers, and so when you have someone that helps some idea up, I how do I just get ten percent better, and then next time we meet we're going to see if we're doing that. That's what we found is the leader has a huge impact, not by saying get to goal. That's just that's a weak approach. It should be take where you are and let's get that plus one, because that's better. The next time we're going to get there and take where you are and we'll try and get that plus two. And the great leaders they inspire that kind of performance, Sam, not because there's so much variance, but because you can always find something to tweak, to help them self correct. And and you know it's not setting the sale. I don't know if you follow Jim Rown, the old business philosopher Guy, has a super famous speech called the setting of the sales and he says that the sailing ships, they didn't only get there if the wind bloom in the right direction. They set their sales and they drove their rudder and they could end up wherever they wanted, not because of the direction that the wind blows, but because of how they set their sales. That's why I think, Sam, that coaching and having one on one's matters, not because the coaches don't know at all, but because the leader and the reps stop and they set their sales and they course correct, they don't get off track.

If they're on track, they make the sale catch more wind. And if you're more intentional, you will see a lot more variance than you think because you create a unique plan for a unique person. That's what I think. I love it. I mean obviously to your point right. Everybody's different, everybody has different things that they need to work on, but nevertheless, your software is installed at some massive organizations and you do have insights on common behaviors that reps need to adjust or modify to improve their performance. Are there one, two, three, core, you know, key mistakes that you continue to see reps make over and over that impacts their ability to achieve inside of companies? Yes, across companies. That's a tougher, tougher one. Here's here's why. So are we have people on the in the industrial like waste management and Avery Dennis, and you know they're totally different than a tech company like steelhouse, for instance, one of the fastest growing add tech companies, or adveral. They're both our customers. Their sales motion is a million times different than what waste management does right, or what Comerica Bank does. But inside of companies, you're absolutely right. So the ways that people follow up is something that is very again, you're not not a mind blower for me to tell you that, but the great ones follow up differently than the average or the fledgeling ones do. There's a lot of best practices that we find and we're able to pick up inside of those those orgs. I already kind of shared, like the way that you deliver proposals is a really common one that actually translates across all I've actually been as to teach tons of classes now to our customers on proposal delivery. Never on proposal creation, always on proposal delivery. That's one of in all three of our markets seems to come up. Follow up across the board is big but honestly, SAM, they're consistent in companies or industries, but they don't often jump across industries, except for work ethic really will always matter. I know that probably seems like no Dah. Follow up will always always be, I think, one of the differentiators between the average and the stars. And I think probably the last one that I would say is a real heart hallmark. The more coachable you are, Sam, the more growth you have over time. We found that there's this performance value chain, I guess is lest we call it. Outcomes are driven by process. Process is only driven by coachability. People do what they do, Sam, and the only reason you're ever going to change your process is if you are open to people making suggestions that you say yeah, I'm willing to give that a try. And so that's probably not the answer you're looking for, but it's the honestly answer. You know, it's a good answer and I've got us. I've got a follow up, which is because one of the middle thing you said actually have not heard before, which is how people follow up, can have a huge impact on performance. So what do the best reps do when they're following up that differentiates them from the Mediocre Reps? I'm super glad you asked that. This is one that we just have been working on with some of our customers, and this with one is across all of our industries. The great ones make sure that before they're done talking to them, that customer or that prospect knows what's going to happen next and they've actually organized before they go. So it's not like Hey, I'll call you, it's get your calendar open now, so we're scheduling when that follow up conversation is going to be. Here are the things that I'm going to be sending you. I don't want to just send them to you. I'd like to get on the phone and walk them through with you to make sure that you know how to use these and that if there's any questions, you can give it to me then so I can modify those. That is an awesome best practice that we're finding that the people who they don't just say how get back to you. Then they get it in. They cross their fingers and hope they're scheduling it. They're they're actually not just ending it to him. They say I'm going to get you on the phone and then I'm going to send it to you. Those things are small tweaks, but it...

...shows buyer intent. If the buyers not willing to actually make sure that what you're sending them for follow up is meeting their needs, that's actually an indicator on how will you did in that call that you're on. If that, if you think about that, that's a best practice that jumps that's we're seeing right now. Yeah, no, I think that makes a lot of sense. I think the reason, if I were to hypothesize, is that so many reps, some of them, are just uncomfortable in those negotiating moments, in those moments where they need to ask for specific behaviors back from the buyer and they're so happy to get the approval they have what some people call happy ears and they're just yes, okay, this call weren't great, and then they just deban, you know, so that they they're so happy to get some of the answer that they thought that they wanted that they give up on the rest of it and completing and closing the circle. Yeah, I've ID you said that. I have this conversation a lot. What a lot of people think is the finish line is really the starting line right, and I don't think that. Quite often when we make it, maybe it's because we have a trained them, maybe it's because they're insecure. I don't know the reason why, Sam, but one on ones will set that up and leaders need to be involved in that. I think that they need to make sure that they've practiced that. Then they give them access to listening to other people doing that. Let them watch people do that, help them do that maybe early on their career, actually jump in and show them how that's done. And then I think that when you start showing people how to do the job rather than telling them how to do the job, it becomes much easier for them to model that activity. Yeah, so I guess. Fundamentally, I mean, I know this is sort of like a leading question, but so you fundament I believe people are coach of but I would assume, because you believe so much in coaching, I do, you'll have some people that. Again, Sam, the bigger you are, you'll never have a hundred percent of a population doing anything. I always tell that to our customers. You know, if you look at us as a silver bullet, you're going to be bummed. But I do believe that people are coachable and I've seen some of the most rigid people change. It starts never like with the more rigid people. They don't ever do it because they want to, but when they start seeing that their leader has their interests in mind. That's why consistency is so important. Sam. Everybody thinks, you know first, Oh, I must be in trouble because they're talking to me. Except for that. I'm going I'm going to call bullshit on myself on that. The incoming general ration of salespeople. They value that at the very top of the list. Sam. They want to know how am I going to be developed? They're going to want to know how you're going to help me get better faster than if I was on my own. And our customers are telling us right now that that coaching culture and that environment of we are equipping our managers to do this, we are taking it seriously and you can expect that when your manager has a one on one with you, they're going to be good at it because we've trained them to have impact with reps, just like we're going to train you to have impact with prospects. And when they believe that that's the case, yeah, they were all now, that said, there's going to be bad apples in every bunch and our advice is if you got a toxic person which doesn't respond, think long and hard while you have in there. Absolutely, I'm serious. I'm serious, I'm not. That's serious. AM toxic teammates. I mean, even if they're a Badass quartacrusher, you better be asking yourself you know that impact on people with a toxic teammate that says I'm not going to change. That goes only can we let this this is a really good reason why she measure coachability that your listeners might like Sam a lot of times the top performers feel like, as I'm performing at the best. I'm a candidate to promote it, fair to say? Right, absolutely, okay. But if you're measuring coachability and you see that you have a top performer that's great at the sales process and Hiti a number, but they respond poorly to change and they're unwilling to change, then you can say to him you're one one. I love everything about you. You say, rob you are, you a body everything we want here. It's up yours this change. So let me tell you. You can keep your job as a rep, but until you can demonstrate to the company that you're a change you're open... change, you can't lead a team because change is part of the game and we can't have our leaders be change resistant because teams reflect our managers. So you got to start learning how to be open to change, ALDs, you can't run a team. I can't tell you how many times that's how people want to change. Yeah, that's that's great feedback. Rob How did you know there's a lot of people out there that say they want to start a company? I'm curious. You know. You've started a technology company. I take it you're not an engineer. Is that right? Dude? I'm the opposite. That's a fine my dad. Can you tell you about our family? My Dad is is a bit one of the engineers that invented the first lasership Pren for fuel at Packard. So he's a damn okay, yeah, japs, and we salute you, my dad, and he tells them stories. They want to talk to Dave, who want Bill Packard way back in the day and said we have this idea for a desktop printer and they were told we're calculator and a mainframe computer company. We don't see you know, we don't see that in our future and the rest of history. So I've been around innovation. But what's funny is my dad thinks he failed as a father because he has a son and sales and I think you're doing pretty well. We Have Fun, my dad. If it's not for guys like us, man, your prayer meets nothing. And he's like, without our badass product, you guys don't have anything to sell. So we go back and forth like that. But I am not an engineer. I I have absolutely not. I for sure am a sales leader. I have surrounded myself with a lot of the best devs here in the silicon slopes area. We have a killer engineering team. The reason that I decide I'm a forty something man. I should have done this a long time ago. But again, Sam, like I'm doing this with a bunch of kids in school and you know, it was a way different decision to start a business with a more mature family of a lot more responsibilities and when I was younger with nothing to lose. Right, absolutely well. My question is, how did you do it? I mean how did you because a lot of the time, you know, the issue. I'll tell you this as an issue in New York. Right the issue in New York is that there's a lot of salespeople and there's a lot of MBA people. Most of the NBA people are convinced that they should be founders, but engineers don't. They don't want to work for those people because they don't think that they can learn that much from them. And so the biggest problem with New York and the reason that there hasn't been more explosive, you know UNICORNS, is because the quality of the engineering talent isn't good enough and they're not excited and mobilized by, you know, the vision that these non technical founders are selling them, but you've managed to put together an incredible team. What do you attribute your success to? So I was able to get the right guys early and again here we are. We would get introduced to the guy to be the right guy to build our prototype of our product. I'll never forget I wanted to start the company for years, Sam, but I was be I was forgiving, I was a pussy, I just I was afraid to make the to make the jump, because I did know who build the product for me. And I was fortunate to introduced to someone and I said, let me tell you how big this market is, let me tell you what this does. Here's we're native and sales force. Right now we only work with sales force customers and that's led to an awesome relationship with sales force. This gentleman made a prototype for me and I looked at them and I said, let me go see if I can sell it. That's all. I went and I sold it to people, even though it was ugly and even when it was limited. But because I know I speak with their customers voice, because I am that market, we were able to attach it to key problems, dollarize those problems say, listen, I know will give you this deal if you'll this crazy deal, if you'll do it. We funded our company on a couple of those deals with some big compact customers, and then I want to raise two million dollars in seed funding. And we are mission driven. Sam. I mean we do, with a small company of roughly thirty people, what most people are like. How are you not a hundred people strong already? Because of the kind of work we're cranking out, and it's everything for me is we found the right people. Unfortunate that I live in an area, but these guys are really because we're dominated by Dev guys on our in our company and then x.

The first thing we do, Sam as, we get them oriented to the mission and we are mission or at a man. Here's what we believe. A manager's job is to help a rep do their very best work so as a result, they can live their best life. Because I think it's not about work life balance like we've all heard. It's worklife integration. You tell your that's in phrase. It's a new phrase, it's not mine, it's whatever saying. But you can't separate as hand. If you're not doing your best work, you're not going to live your best life, and so our people bought into that mission and, just like you hear Kyle Porter over at sales left talk about sales love, we got sales manager love over here. We love sales leaders because if they if they do it right, Sam they change more than companies and teams. They become legendary in the lives of people they lead. And our company got behind that. You should see it, man. We we love it when our customers come over. Our developers are researching and reading every study on sales coaching and the state of the sales world. They know as much about this stuff as a sales leader does. So they're all we've had great talent. I wanted to work here and I told him you got to be passionate about sales leadership, and this guy looked at me. He's like, I don't really care what I'm coding, I just want to, you know, work for a high growth company. And I told my CTEO, can't hire that guy, man, he's got to be on mission or else you can't work here. And that's paid dividends for us. When I mean our team does win more than anybody ever would ever expect because they got the mission motality. I love it. Do you have a personal routine? I mean you sound you told me you were just you know, you like flying all over the country here, and yet you sound totally inspired, totally passionate, totally motivated. Does that come from? You know, do you regiment your life in a certain way? You know, you make sure you get you know, we get to the gym or, you know, you eat, but you don't eat any gluten or something like that, or is it just, you know, naturally blots of caffeine, though, if you say that, because one of the commitments is them back to the gym. You know, I was so focused on the on the job that I lost track of the other things. And you know, that's one of the lessons that I've learned as a founder that, if you got other founders that are listening, I do have a responsibility to my investors and I have a huge responsibility to my my team members to give them all I got. Man, I owe them my a game every single day. I owe my customers my a game every day. But you know what I forgot? I owe my family and myself my a game, and that's tough to make sure that you have a game wherever you go, and so it has to be intentional. So I do right. Try to make sure I get sleep, I try hard to kind of feed the soul. I love my I love my family, I love my children, but you know, I'm I'm a voracious reader. I find that reading inspires me. I have I read three types of books. I read the things around my professional sales I always want to know what's going on in the sales world. I want to know the latest thinking. I read a lot about leadership because I work with leaders and I want to make sure I can lead my team. And then I also finish with I read success stories, because I'm one of those guys that believes what you think about is what you'll do. So I fill my head was success man and it my motor drives and I I'm offensic. What you here right now is authentic. I mean I love what we do, say and we change companies, we change lives and it's so fun to sell to and work with people that have the same challenge that I had my whole career. How often do you get to do that? It's amazing. What are give us three books that you love that we should read. Want of the EAT chollet. My my success one that I love right now is shoot on film night story of Nike. Have you read that great book? I have read that book. That's amazing. How often is that book right as the thing I love? The thing I love about it is that Nike didn't go public until the company was like fifteen years old. You know, I think he started like sixty three, sixty four and sixty five or something, and they went public in like one thousand nineteen, seventy nine or nineteen eighty. And you know he'd been doing at a long ass time and he know it wasn't like it was an instant success story. No, you're dead on. And so I had no idea how many times that company almost died and so exactly. And my favorite quote from that book was where he said that when he was selling financial instruments at whatever it was and he was selling encyclopedia's... Athort or sales guys, remember that he said he hated his life, but when he started selling shoes they were just flying out of the trunk, not because the shoe was the best. I could remember. He need to make the shoot with someone else's shoot. The private labeled. Yeah, it's in Japan. Yeah, he said passion. He said the passion that he had was, you know, contagious and it was something that the customers. The Passion that he had, you know, was undeniable and it was irresistable Ius work. The Passion was irresistible, and that's one I love about that book so much. The first sale that you got to have happened, has to happen in your heart. So that's that's the success. Book is a Nike One. I'll give you two recent ones that are recent books that I like. Those would be like non compensated plugs to a couple of recent authors. Keith Rosen's newest book, sales leadership, is great, my all time favorite leadership, but for sales people's cracking the sales management code by Jason Jordan. The new one that I'm really digging right now is Keith Rosen sales leadership book. It's awesome, love awesome. And then the one that I would say on sales, the new one that I like. It's on it's flying off the charts. The guy's a friend of mine. I dug into it, I gave it a good read. It's legit. I think everyone should read it. It's gap selling by Kena. It's a great way of looking at at the sales world. I think he was on I I don't know when this episode will air, but I spoke to I spoke to him yesterday for the podcast and we were talking all about gaps olling. It's a great book. I adorse it all the way. I've had them on my podcast. It's the right I think too many people are anchored a products. They only curd problems and we don't speak the language of the problem. We should speak that fluently and you know, one of the things that I believe that we ought to do start having problem training, not just product training. So I'm all in on that. That's awesome. That's fantastic, rob thank you so much for being on the show. I'm sure there are people out there in the world that are listening and are inspired by this conversation and so you know, if they want to work at explain or become a customer, what's the preferred method of communication to reach you so that they can connect with either you or your company? Yeah, finally, on looked and we share a ton of content. Email be directly. It's Robb at Xboy and x Voy anti, but we, like I said, follow us on Linkedin because we share a lot of content for sales. It is we give away a lot of free in sides because, again, we are committed to the profession and and I'm really approachable and I love talking to sales leaders. Sam, I freaking love it and so I love meeting as many as I can. Well, I look forward to meeting you in person in a couple weeks. And Rob, thanks so much for being the salesacker podcast. This has been awesome. Sam, thank you for having me again. Honor to be here. Thank you for building such a great resource for the entire sales community. It's a terrific show. Thank you very much. I'll talk to you soon. Everybody is Sam Jacobs. Welcome to SAM's corner. Another great conversation, this time with Rob Jepson. First of all, you can just tell Rob's passion and enthusiasm for the art and science of sales and I think it's just so important if you have a leader or a manager or a mentor somebody that is that passionate about their craft. I think it's contagious and I think it's infectious and it's so it's so great speaking to somebody like rob that has such a wonderful take on sales, but also the importance of coaching, right. That's that's what that was the subject of our conversation and I think we we always have to come back to this concept of purpose driven activities. Rob Is talking all the time about not just making sure that your reps are doing more and more and more, but that they're doing the right things that lead to the right conversion rights which lead to the right outcomes. I think that rob also talked about not having your own set of numbers as a sales manager, but making sure that they're transparency and authenticity within the context of your conversation with your Reps. and I think if you're going to truly embrace a coaching culture, there has to be a level of authenticity and transparency which means that you don't get to have a separate set of data that you bring into that conversation for...

...the rep to be surprised with. It has to be a mutual understanding. I I think the final thing that that that rob talked about, which I think is so important, is our tendency to ignore our top performers and let's not do that. Let's dive in and let's figure out what is the most that is possible from somebody that is exceptional and that can really deliver an exceptional outcome. How much more can we invest in their productivity, in their performance? That's a lesson that comes out very clear. And first break all the rules, which is a great management book that I'm always telling people to read. But the point is, don't assume that your top performers are on autopilot. Let's see how much better they can do by investing in them and investing in their success. So this has been Sam's corner. Thanks so much to our sponsors. The first is show pad. Show pad is the leading sales enablement platform for the modern seller. Learn more at show padcom forward, salesacker, as well as outreach outreaches, the leading sales engagement platform. You can check out more at outreach out ioh. If you want to reach out to me, you can find me on Linkedin. I'm at linkedincom forward, slash the word in and then forwards. Sam F Jacobs. If you have any interest or curiosity and more and learning more about the show, please reach out and otherwise I'll talk to you next time.

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