The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

58. How to Shape the Future of a Modern Organization w/ Jake Dunlap

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This week on the Sales Hacker podcast, we speak with Jake Dunlap, Founder and CEO of Skaled. Skaled is a Skaled is a modern sales-consulting firm that helps companies implement best in class sales and marketing processes and technology. Today on the podcast, he discusses how to scale a company while shaping your next startup in a modern organization.

One, two, one, three, three, hey everybody, welcome to the sales hacker podcast. It is your host, Sam Jacobs. This week we've got a very special show. The show was recorded live in person when I was living in Austin actually over February and March, and I got to sit in the scaled offices with none other than Jake don lap. If you don't know who Jake is, you are living under a rock or, at a very minimum, you're not using linkedin very often, because jake is the founder and owner of scale, which is one of the leading sales technology consulting companies in North America, and he's also a really active presence on Linkedin and he's he's been teaching the community a lot recently about how to use social media to enhance your brand, but also just to assist in a more modern version of the buyers journey, so that it's not you talking about yourself all the time, but really tailoring your social media presence, particularly with the use of video, to interact with your buyers more effectively, and so it's a great conversation. Before we dive into that, we want to thank our sponsors. This week we've got a new sponsor, the company is called Conga. CONGA is the leading end to end digital document transformation suite. With Conga you can simplify documents, automate contracts and execute e signature so you can focus on accelerating sales cycles and closing business fast stir. So, if you want to learn more about Conga, go to gocongacom forward sale secer for more information. Second sponsor is that Unicorn that we all know and love, outreach. outreaches the leading sales engagement platform. Outreach support sales reps by enabling them to humanize communications at scale, from automating the soul sucking manual work that eats up selling time to providing action oriented tips on what communications are working best. Outreach has your back. So, without further ado, let's listen to our interview with Jake Dunlap and remember it's live in person. Forgive a little bit of the audio, but it's great to be there in person where we can look each other in the face and have a human conversation. So I hope you enjoy it and let's listen. Welcome everybody to the sales packer podcast. Today. I'm delighted to have as my guest my friend, but also, more importantly, and perhaps the world's biggest linkedin celebrity, Jake Dun lap, founder and CEO scaled, which is, I think, probably the fastest growing, if not one of the fastest growing sales technology consulting firms and sales strategy consulting firms that I'm aware of, at least in North America. So, Jake, welcome to the show. Awesome and appreciate you having me. I'm looking forward to this. We're doing it live to if we're doing a lot in Mars and I'm looking at you in the eyes right now. It's here, bettermo. That's good, a man, I liked it. So, as we do, we like to start at every show understanding a little bit of context about and and many of the listeners out there see you on Linkedin. So one of the questions that we always want to ask is why should we listen to Jake? So what we call it the baseball card. First of all, your name is Jake Dunel. Is Your tell us your official title Cel. I mean, like every company, it's you know, I own the companies that can make whatever I want. There you go. Founder, seeo, executives, chairman, sure, all of the all the day. Chairman of the board. The company is called scaled. Tell us about scaled in your works. I gave it my discressures. So we are consulting in Strategy Company. So we've really focus on working with companies that are having, you know, kind of areas of opportunity around how do we better optimize our go to market, our sales process or count growth process and really looking for outside help and support on how to potentially do that. So a lot of work that we're doing is with executive leaderships down to the frontline teams, helping to not just tell people what they should be doing like a lot of consulting firms were, really helping to drive home that change. And so we really focus on all of our engagements measurable impact results and making sure that we're driving a business...

...outcomes, not analysis and assessments. And how old is the company? We are six, almost six and a half years. Allow. Yeah, okay, yeah, so I know your background but the listeners may not sure. What are we doing before give us just the highlights of your career and maybe a little bit of personal ifere you from, by the way? Yeah, Kansas City. If she's a city. I didn't know that. Okay, so you're from Kansas City. How did you make your way to I met you in New York. So how did you make your way in New York? Tell us about that journey. Yeah, so went to college at Missouri State University. Where is that? That's in Springfield, okay, right in the ozark mountains. Beautiful, beautiful country. So when Criminals Huh in the other Oh, yeah, I guess. Yeah, that's kind of made it popular enough. So spend the early part of my career in professional sports. So Love Sports. Worked for the Tampa Bay raised and the Phoenix coyotes. So moved to Tampa, then Phoenix. Realize I like sports and sales, just maybe not together. So it's it's an interage doing ticket so yeah, take a sale sales censorship. So I kind of moved up throughout two and a half years. Had An opportunity to work at career builder when it was kind of in its heyday. Two Thousand and six they'd open an office in Phoenix and had an opportunity to go there. Was One of the first people there. Moved into sales leadership and that was really I was really, really fortunate to start there at that time and I got put through formal leadership development and all these different things that I think a lot of start up leaders never get, and I look back now just realize how fortunate I was. From there, left career builder after alls four years of takeovers, the vicepreast of sales at glass door and I moved to San Francisco. At that point built that team from zero to forty people in a year, zero to a million and MRR and a year. MRR In mark really, yes, and here, yeah, I mean if you throw enough bodies at anything, you can, you can get there. I don't know that's so. I mean it was right place right. I knew this based so well. All it was. It was it was almost not fair at times. Where you know glass do we have your profile? So it was it was a good time and I was was smart and I brought some people with me that I knew that could be new the space wall to so from there moved to New York. So that's when I moved to New York. As in the bay for two and a half years. Why did you move to New York? Opportunity. My wife and I were thinking about where we might want to live longer term. I mean now we're here in Austin, but, and you know, New York is definitely the list. She's got a lot of family there and a lot of really good kind of growing texting. This is back in two thousand and twelve, so the texting New York kind of tumbler had just kind of exploded. So that kind of texting in New York, I think, was starting to really pick up and it was an interesting company coming called chart beat, and know what happened there. Is what I what I realized for my two experiences in these kind of rapid growth venture back companies is that the challenges that we face the sales there it's very much an island job, like you're hired as this person who is supposed to come in fix everything with limited resources. You know, product market fit doesn't it's thinking doesn't really matter where we're at, like you got to grow in scale it because we just took twenty five million dollars or fifty million dollars or whatever that number is. So what I saw is there is an opportunity for me to do the work that I love, which is building team, scaling teams from demand generation through customer success, but instead of doing it for one company, do it for a lot of companies and it made a very conscious decision early on that I did not want to build a lifestyle business, that I wanted to try to build a company, and so that is the journey to get here. Yeah, so how do you do that? How do you build a company? Tell me about the evolution of scale. You've gone through a couple different iterations, or so I'm not mistake, and walk us through that experience, which is not dissimilar from the journey that technical founders yeah, along as they find product market fit for their for their software bus. Yeah, I mean scaling and people business has very unique challenges and I mean it's there's no venture capital for people business, which means it's myself and, you know, the bank. So I think I'll tell you. Come to mistakes along the way and I think it's apptable to really anybody in your career, anybody starting a business. I think early on I realized these are the problems I like to solve, but I don't think I had a clear vision for what it would look like.

And so if I think it's you know, the first couple of years we kind of meander. Do, is it sales related? Then we'll work with you on it. And so, you know, we would do trainings and all kinds of different things. I think my learning in the first two and a half years was have a clear vision of where we want to go, who we want to be as a company. Yeah, and that was a really big kind of learning for me. You know. Yeah, we were starting to do outsourced to mansion. We grew that business to Ninetyzero Mrr in like six months and it just ended up being like a not great. It's not's not why I started scale. I did. They start scaled. It said, why didn't you like it? Outsource S drs. Yeah, exactly right. I like having strategic conversations and it just gets very tactical. You know, you were supposed to set twenty five meetings. You set twenty. Yeah, we met with capital one in Delta and Radeon, but it just needs not the business I wanted to start. And so that kind of it really was. And I think two thousand and seventeen. So that literally by the first three or four years of business was just due to my not having a clear enough vision. And I think it whether you're a CEO or a sales leader. Having a vision for where you want to be I think helps to get everyone aligned. It cuts down nutrition. You know the type of people that you're looking for. So I think we was about two thousand and seventeen. We decided some core things. We didn't want to be as. We didn't want to do sales training. There's a lot of people out there, a lot of people that you know, that do an amazing job at sales training that it definitely has its place. We didn't want to do we wanted to become, you know, a consulting company, which I think is their dirty word in some circles because of the way that a lot of people do consulting. And so my journey over the last six and you know, six plus years has been continuing to focus the business. Not necessarily we're still expanding our kind of product set, doing creative services. Now is that you mentioned sales operations. That's been a huge part of our business around sales technology, but it's been continuing to focus the vision of shaping the future of the modern sales work and that's kind of like this that no vision at anything the future of the mine. So as that's the vision a hundred percent. That's how do we take all sales organizations forward to adapt to where the buyers are going to buy in two thousand and twenty five, and that's really kind of where our true north is. So where are we offering the right types of services that actually help to get you there? And it's why we started to move more and more into marketing. That's why we tried to move more and more into like those basis. So let's talk about that. So first of all, and just just so that the people out there are listening, you're working with linked in, your work which is Microsoft. Tell us some of the logos so we can understand that. Yeah, we should higher scaled, because you're running past and rightest. Yeah, I mean, look, we work with everything from kind of your rapid growth technology companies, from like breather. There's a company called Luster in New York that we did a lot of work with last year, kind of called olive. I mean there's the eight billion startups. So yeah, I mean we've worked with a lot of like fast growing startups, a lot in hur technology space. Work with on the enterprise side right now, ultimate software, virtual instruments and Linkedin, as you mentioned. We've been working then, for almost a year and a half. Really, the clients are facing a challenge of one of two things. Something is broken or we're doing something new and we can either do it in house or we can spin up and get to market with whatever that new thing is enterprise sales to manage whatever in three months versus ten months. Yeah, right. And so the company side it's more you know, what I like to think is, are they are they ready to operationalize? You know, do they really need us or should you just need to go spin it for another six months? That's that's what I look at. So you're talking of buyers, but also sales organizations all over the world all the time. And to the point of your vision of by two thousand and twenty five, you know, the world is going to look different and though the the profession of sales is going to look different. So what is the future of sales development? You know that is a topic that is near and dear to your heart. Walk us through how used to be, what is not working anymore and how do we as sellers, need to evolve to adapt to this new world? What I think sales development is where we see a lot of these challenges happening, meaning everyone wants to generate more leads. I think the issue is most sales organizations, particularly sales organizations and technology, be built their sales development playbook based off of predictable revenue. Yeah, which is the process that was...

...written about, a process that ended in two thousand and six and we're in two thousand and nineteen. And so the plays were called called call, email, email, email, and that worked whenever all of our touch points were direct calls to action. Write. A call is a direct called action and email is a direct called action. But now that we're doing account base marketing and influence and all these things, the Kepis that we measure success by changed dramatically. And I think what's going to end up happening it is ai is going to take out some of the basic email interactions. I mean, how many people use Gmail now and just so like, Yep, that's had Hadad. It's amazing, you know what I mean? And so it is. We're getting to that point. What I think the exciting part is for sales development is if you look at what we used to let sale development Reps. do you know even ten from five years ago, we let them have conversations. We actually you know, I think the reason why so many companies can't scale their sales word is that their SDR work is and having conversations. Were at teaching sales development people how to understand somebody's business and understand what they're going through in those types of things. So I think what what's going to happen in the future is for sales development people to be successful, they're going to have to have a little bit more under standing how to go a little deeper in the funnel, because the basic the qualification, all of that, like a drift bought can take care of that, you know, like so a little Bas a. good question. Why we need sales development? You know, because as a buyer I appreciate an SDR I buy things and I understand what they're doing, but having to explain myself twice to hunt it because of like almost an artificial delineation, feels like. To your point about the buyer experience in the buyer journey, that doesn't feel optimal. And if I can, if the qualification part is happening through a drift bought or through conversational marketing platform or whatever you want to call it, why do I need Ansdr? It's a great QUATU. That is. That is, I think, one of the most important questions. I think it's because we've, for whatever and again, it's just been this this degrading over the last three to four years in particular, of the quality of conversation. We literally have went to where you're supposed to get on a phone and immediately start asking about need and budget and timing, and we give these guys no skills. Right, we're like here it is qualified as opposed to SDRS, should be trained on how to have a conversation. Had to have a conversational selling right like I think so the SDR. What they can do is how do I how do I give the stars enough to add value or use a buyer get something out of the conversation, because you're it's miserable right when you get on any still, things need are AE. Well, I think what's going to happen? Sales is going to get involved, just further down the funnel tier point like maybe I get if conversation can take it or some type of AI can take it to qualified or ten or twenty percent, but it's going to have to be done in a different way. It's not going to be done by just better qualification, I think. I think the problem is we keep going back to better qualification, we keep going back to you know, well, do we do this? Do we get the need as opposed a focus on I mean the need actually is what's important, but these SDRs don't know how to have the conversation about understanding and really addressing a need. Is there a need in the business? Do I understand this business enough to know if this is a real need, of fake need, etc. So I think sales is just continuing to get squeezed right. Look at account management right and customer success. You look at the SDR, look what it means to be in sale. So I just think what's going to happen is sales is just going to need to get involved later. I think the really interesting tread that's going to blindside a lot of sales organizations over the next two three years is if you look at sites like gtw crowd the buyer is going to come to the table consistently with more information than your cells team. They're going to know more about how your product stacks up against the competition than your cells team. The same way as when you buy a house, when you buy a car, all of these things, and so I think again what it means is both FDRS and sellers are going to have to be smarter. There have to be more educated. It's not just about understanding what your product does, it's about understanding how it fits in the ether, where you win, where you don't win, it's you know it's and then project managing someone through the rest of the the buying cycle. So I think it's there's going to have to be a leveling up...

...of problem solving skills, leveling up of the conversations that we're having, because of the last three to five years we've really degraded the quality of conversations and how we train people how to have those, because the AI, like we just talked about, it's getting pretty good at basic conversations. And guess where it's going to be in three years and guess where it's going to be in ten years. You're not going to know the difference. You're already talking the machine just as much of people and you don't even know. So where we can differentiate is in the quality, the nuance the conversation. So if you're not able to have a nuance conversation, you're not going to have a job on sales. That's scary for a lot of people. I didn't should should be. I mean it's time, not in like a fear mongering way, right, and it's just more like, look, this is the reality. So if you can have a conversation, you're not going to have a future in sales. But getting to the conversation is oftentimes the biggest challenge for what I would imagine many of her customers facing. So what is the advice that you give and what is the what is the arsenal of communication channels and engagement touch points that you're advising in order for companies to get to the conversation in the first place? Yeah, I think there's a couple of factors here. Calls and emails are still fine, you know. Like again, the problem is these channels are just becoming saturated right. I'm I'm big on the phone right now. I mean I just don't think people we've literally just trained a bunch of people who don't know how to pick up the phone. I know there's a company at Lanta. It's gotten a sixty people in cell team. I said forty percent of their appointments from coal calls. Okay, so it's certain that's good. It's certainly still right. And the problem is like yeah, they don't pick up, but it's just it's a it's an extra touch point. Yeah, said extra, like Oh yeah, Sam's not going on the way to it's not going away. Right, but the problem is a Robo calls in particular, I think, are the biggest threat to calls, not bad sales people in two thousand and seventeen or thirty billion robo calls last of their fifty billion Robo calls and unless we do some something sweeping from a legislation standpoint's going to be worse. This year, I've heard fifty percent of all calls every time the phone is a rib. Comment's exactly right. And then on the email side, you know we're sending all those two hundred and sixty billion plus emails a day, and so look, but the chanlengers to work people are, you know, but again, busy people now are just giving hundreds and hundreds of emails a day and that's something that, you know, we just have to factor and so to me, I think the reason that companies are struggling is we just so used to using call and email ads, primary lover or one and primary lover to yeah, and now the playbook has to expand. You have to think about how you integrate direct mail with that, how you get it in a great potentially advertising integrated with their their outreaching used to be like just go out and make it happen, figure it out. Except but as these channels the noise ratio grows, your voice, your possible voice, to shrink so much so I think there's things like Directmail, video, other different ways that you really need to think about to cut through the noise. There's a company in Canada that they won't mind be sharing this. It's called League and rapid hole on our own. Great. Yeah, exactly. Kyle and his team, you know, they have literally moved everything from there, you know, snd to enterprise to all more account based things. And what they what they're doing or things that you might not think are repeatable by sending direct mail and other things. But guess what, they've created a conveyor belt to do it. And I think it as sales leaders and as SDR leaders or sales operations team, you have to start to look for nonrepeatable ways to make more calls and more emails and instead more repeatable ways to do more touch points or at that a more diverse set of touch points. And I also that that's kind of the the month to month quarterly strategy. And then I think the massive upside is to train your sales team how to use linkedin meeting that you have an opportunity, you have a hundred people on your seales team, two hundred thousand people on your sales team every single day, for your team to be many mouthpieces. Right to be out there sharing industry and sites, not sharing your best places to work, not sharing just we're hiring, not sharing. Check our gardener magic for quadrants. Nobody cares. They care about Susie Smith sitting in Atlanta and her insights. She connects to a network of people and what does she have to say, as opposed to right now, marketing is so focused on putting together a blog post...

...a week and that blog posts. People's attention spans is shorter and short. Your blog post dies in two days gone. There two point one million blog post produced every single day. Wow, you don't let me ask you a question. Let me, let me challenge you a little bit. Let's do it I can imagine somebody saying, Jake, that's great, but my buyers are industrial engineers and you know what? They're not on Linkedin. Linkedin is just sales people selling to each other. React amazing bit perfect color up. If your buyers are are on Linkedin, don't use it. Go find out where they are. I don't care. You know what I mean, like I'm a hundred percent like email, call, smoke signal, linked it, I don't care what it's where your buyers live. Maybe your trade shows a hundred maybe it's a hundred percent trait shoe strategy. Awesome. You saw the doctors. Probably Right. So I think a lot of this is people don't pay enough attention to where their buyer, for some is live. So they just go back call, email, blah blah, blah, linkedin outreach. But if your buyers aren't there, Sam, you shouldn't use linkedin. Okay, but it's not. But other fires definitely are. My buyers are there, right, but I would argue you. I mean so I don't have the exact sps in front of me about the percent of executives that go to Linkedin to get their professional insights. So I think if you're reaching out. There's a subset of a lot of industries, you know, and again I would argue probably maybe there's a VP of operations at an industrial manufacturing company that might be on Linkedin it. So if you sell a product that's applicable to them, then that would be where I would be. So I think that you're a hundred percent right to think about that. I think all your listeners and everyone should go back to that drawing board. You know, from where are my people? Are they on Instagram? Cool, what can we doing to engage in the early on facebook? Or they on twitter? So to me it's more about the audience. I just think right now, if your audience is on Linkedin, I mean it's over six hundred million users now. A big majority of those are active on a monthly basis. I just think right now, if your buyers are there, it's a mass, it's a huge it's instagram two thousand and fourteen. So let me ask a different question. You just talked about a more complicated a sequence. Right are in series of touch points thrift that is more than just calls and emails and includes direct mail potentially maybe include some account based retargeting through something like terminus. But when I hear that, I hear complex and expensive, and when I'm sure you're telling your customers you need to do this, you need to be more thoughtful about the choreography of the sequence with which you're engaging your prospects, and they're saying, dude, you know I just put in outrage. What are you telling them? I have to buy Vijiard, I have to buy like three new tools, I have to retrain the team. That's time and that's money. And now you're actually doing this, up ending my customer acquisition cost, the unit economics that my finance team is modeled for how much it's going to cost to acquire customer in the first place. Is Your ambswer tough shit. To some extent, I think the reason that we're facing this challenge is, again, it goes back to what I was talking about before. We're so used to looking at software as an expense for sales people because our only point of reference as sales force, and every there's nobody who looks at sales force is like yes, Oh my God, I'm so thank God they bought the sales force right. And so the problem is just we have to we have to shift our mind in sales marketing does not look at technology as we marketing was a technology, as a strategic investment. That's an absolute must. And the problem is we've got to start to look at sales tech as not a it's an investment in the team, not an expense that we have to deal with. And so you're spending five hundred dollars per rep per month, you yere spending so what? Six grand a year right to have a good or medium invest in class back like great, just hire one less wrap and they're all more efficient. I think the problem is, look, what's the alternative? The alternative is more like hire more people who still aren't producing, or tweet the emails to be just a little bit better. There is no magic silver bullet here. Of like, if I've only we could crack the email writing code, we'd set ten xmore meetings. Like it ain't going to happen.

Yeah, you know. So I think we've got to Change Our paradigm, that we've got to start to look at sale technology investments as an investment to make our team more effective and more effective first and efficient second. That's the other big part. We continue to think of sales technology way to make people more efficient. It doesn't need the quality that's coming out of there. We have sequences or cadses are any good, you know. So I think you just have to look at it that way, that, yeah, you're going to have to do that. I mean, once again, I go back to what's the alternative? What happens in three years when the US passes their version of GDPR? Or what happens if, again, Robo calls go to seventy five in that stuff starts to break and you have no plan or no idea of how to run a more diversified strategy. So to me, I feel like having those multi chant understanding these other components and how to integrate them into cadences is just it's a must and just changing the way that sales leaders look at it. And you were at that dinner we had in New York and one of the things I said is that I think a lot of sales leaders right now are outsourcing their knowledge, and sales reps are doing it too. They're outsourcing their knowledge of what's possible in sales tach to their operations team, and that's a mistake me as a sales are if I need to know what technology exists so then I can go find a company that's going to give me what I need to be successful. And it's a sales leader. There's ever a thousand sales technologies. Now I think it's like it's eight hundred something in twenty eight, sevent team. That's going to be over a thousand this year. So as a sales leader, you don't need to know all of them, but you do need to one of the ones that are moving the deal for other people. So when you look at yea, to your point, we've got an expert here. First of all, what categories of sales and a woman technology or sales technology are you most excited about that are new or different? Well, I mean it's not new that I think the sales engagement space right. Like to me, the sales engagement space is table sticks. You are not using one of the major players in the sales engagement space, you are at a massive disadvantage. The issue with where sales sales engagement that the you know, sales often outreach right. They did such a great job of branding it as an SDR tool that to me, the real practical applications are actually in the sales process in like how you nurture people or nurture multiple decision makers or influencers in the process in creating an it stream or operation stream. And then on account manage every account management team should be using one of these tools. Like you, you have a client, they were new in twelve months. You want to touch them a certain amount of time throughout that process. That is a great opportunity to put in place a sequence or cadence of activities. So I feel like we're not proliferating these tools enough to and getting enough out of these tools and using more automations. When I talk to clients, need not. The universal truth has been none of them understand the power automation rules and how you can either put people into a more active sequence of activities or how you can remove them and put them into a nurturing campaign. There's just so much stuff. As sales people were so used to and all of your sales there's out there. You know, we were crying it right, we went hunt in our own leads. We did that and I think we've got to get over you know, don't around Grin and all that stuff important, but we got to be smart, like how can we be lazier by using automation and using these tools. So to me, the sales engagement space, I think it's really interesting. The other spaces, isn't the intent world right, which is the discover or and their partnership with Bombara? You've got ever strain, you've got these. I think the way that we've historically picked who we go after is real basic firmographic shit. It's like over a thousand employees and fifty million revenues, totally arbitrary, and so I think if we can do a better job of picking the people that are actually look like a letting the machines kind of help us to do that, and then we can interact them with a more conversational way, not hitting send all. I think it's the combination of those tools that I see is having the biggest potential lift. Yeah, you know, if you're going to make an investment, I'd be making investment in the quality of my data and investment in a sales engagement platform and really tricking it out and understanding that. The other the biggest problem with sales technology. They're to Samon, you kind of touch on this when you talked about all these tools. Is a lot of people are just buying this stuff with no real thought of how to put it together. People also have an appreciation at once you go live, that's that...

...zero. Now you got to optimize and look at this and now do better integrations. Companies spend so much time plugging something in that they don't realize that, you know, once you launch a sales engagement platform, you're you're at the very, very beginning of the change manager process with the team, as opposed to what I see a lot of people do, is they spend so much time resources and then they're there. They don't have an optimization plan. So what's just really quickly, because intended is something everybody's talking about right now, but there's people that don't know what it is. So sure, tell us what it is so that we know what Bumbar is, we know what some of the needs yeah, yes, tend to get jargoning sometimes just because now it's good, this is an important piece of a Charne in it, and then it is the ether. So much so intending it basically uses. I think how I'll try to some but less obvious things that you and I would think about as to why somebody actually might be a higher might have a higher likelihood of somebody who wants to engage with you. So what Bobara does is they have their scripts running on tens of thousands of sites and they know the IP addresses of different companies and where they're coming from and a type of articles that they're reading. So with that tool, allowed to even know what they're searching for. Yeah, exactly right. Yeah, exactly right. So now who is searching for this topic? Who is from this company in these departments at times, and so then they might actually have like some level of interest in what you're doing. I mean like that might be a good person to reach out to. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, absolutely. So that's one thing. Is that's the kind of a bar and then the intent data, and there's a few players in that space. But he's more of like analyzing your current customer base. And maybe you think that your your clients are Fintech and that's all they are. Their only Fintech, right, for example. So maybe in reality they are actually a lot of cross they were like insurance tech. Are Like insurance companies too. So I think what happens is we lock in on an industry, we lock in on a size, but there's all these other little factors about like how fast they're growing, you know, based on like certain data you can get there. How like maybe it's not how fast they're growing, baby, it's vp of sales just left. Or there's this all this different data that exists out in the ether, yea that companies aren't utilizing right now to better target who their actual ideal customers. We still do a lot of our ideal customer profiling on, like you said, firmographic, if fermographic, and it's just not good enough. There needs to be something there needs to be additional x factors and over time the machines are just going to be better at finding those seventy two variables for your company that are actually the right indicators. Because I get at the sales leaders. I think the problem is we'd send to take a lot of our biases from job to job and we tend to implement kind of the same pieces. I think, you know, machines can help us to eliminate some of those and keep the court that matters. What's your single biggest piece of advice to a sales professional? Is it? Is it get active on Linkedin? Is it maintain your brand? Is it learn to have a better conversation when you're thinking about pieces of advice. There's reps that are listening, their sales managers that are listening. What do you want to tell them? Step one is the conversation we had, which it is know where your buyers live and then know how to communicate on those platforms. That mean that really at all, whether that's email, phone, linkedin, instagram, you know, trade, share, wherever it is, I think and understanding what they want to do and where they want to communicate is super, super critical. So I'll talk to us a little bit about Linkedin. Just if people's buyers are there. But, but, but, no, a lot of other people are interacting on Linkedin now. It's it's not just sales people. I mean we're in our little world here sales people and selling the other sales people, but I think it offers a really unique opportunity to have a voice. What I think's going to happen is is that the sale people are going to be their own individual little brands, and I think it doesn't mean that you should be a brand as a seller, meaning I think that that's the problem where I think a lot of sales people in sales managers have it twisted around. How do you use Linkedin as they think like somebody's open wanted to be known as a sales leader. Guy Like I talk about sales because their scale. Yeah, or of course, and I think I talk. I talk about it because those were my buyers are and that's what we do. But if I...

...sold an IOT product, I would only talk about Iot right. I would only talk about industrial manufacturing and connect the device it. I just think people don't understand that when you're on these platforms, whatever it is, you have to be more buyers centric. I'm the communicating to WHO, like the audience that I want to build around stenial people that might work with us would be in the ether around that those topics. If on a salesperson right now or sales manager one, I would pick an industry and stay with it. It's again we're going back to the old school roll of x days. What linkedin is every day. It's a networking event a lot more people globally every day, and so if you have a chance to go to a networking event and you can build an audience in industrial and manufacturing, etc. You're going to use that for forever and machines will never be able to replace that. Machine cannot replace that. I have a direct line to Sam Jacobs and I can call him and he will take my phone calls. I've worked with from three times. If you trust me, already trust my content. So I think the act of the concept that building a brand. You need to build that connected group of proprietary people that trust you as a human and whether that's on Linkedin or other platforms, that really depends on where your buyers live. Maybe you do have to be more facetoface, but you've got a way that you are controlling your list of contacts. I actually I think a lot of sales is kind of almost like how recruiters do it right. Recruiters build the network of people in a city and yeah, and that's what every sales person should be doing, just on a global scale. What is your response, because I'm sure you, as you talk about it on Linkedin, the haters right. So you're out there, you're putting yourself out there in a pretty public way and I'm sure you get lots of different types of feedback. Tell us about your strategy, because I've seen you more and more in videos and my initial reaction, I think, probably wasn't a support of as it could have been internally, the mental conversation I have in my mind. But then I had a couple conversations, one of them with Max and a few other people, and they point it out. They said if somebody sharing something useful and valuable, what's there's no problem with that. If it helps a couple people be more effective in their day to day job, then it's valuable. How did you come to, you know, this this epiphany or the strategy of I've got to be more active, I've got to put myself out there and I've got to make Jake Dunlap as a personality more known, but not necessarily just for scale, but as somebody that gives advice and helps people. I think this is the most important question for salespeople, sales leaders, CEOS, just other people listening. For the first five than a half years it was it's been ten months since we've really been active, since I've been active. I thought my job is to push everything to my company. That's what a good see here does, right cheer, he talks about their company and what they're doing, and same thing as a sales leader. Right, talking about this, talking about my company. Always, always, always, but the market decides. You don't beside. The market decides what's valuable or not. And what happen is, look, we're putting out amazing ebooks, amazing blog post and it would get terrible engagement. We've been so much time on this stuff and it was all it's just a reality check. It was. We're spending all this time on this content, but that's not how people want to consume information anymore. Yeah, so we can either keep running the same hub, spot content pillar for the month, dating content and her mounts its sweets. See. Yeah, Big Rock, you've been writing that shit for eight years, more than eight years in some cases, the ultimate guy at the sales technology by scales. Yeah, download here and we'll risk and so we did that. We made a condy just side there, like all the content on scales ungated, because we found is our content. Most people are consuming your content are really like not h on the totem pole or their little funnel there at that, like intent blets. So like just give it to him. I put up barriers. That's you don't have to go to that radical if you don't want to, but that's a big what you just said is pretty insightful. Yeah, well, just data. So so to get back to it, like how we kind of arrived here was like look, so therefore, I look, I called the company scale consulting, not jaked on that or done that consulting. For reason, I wanted to build a company, right, it didn't want to be centered around me. But when I started to realize, as look, wod what linkedin and instagram and other places are telling you. They want to hear from people, they want to hear from the human they want to know what your story is. And Look,...

...you know, I said I means I started posting about myself when I was, you know, thirty seven. You know, like I'm not sitting here like I've done it. I've built teams, you know, our client proven success. Right. So I think I felt like I was coming from a position of like, okay, I've got like enough, but you don't need to. Everyone's an expert in something, man, and I talked to a lot of junior people that will dm me like hey, I don't feel like an expert. Like look, if you you might get expert in this, this one bitch, and how to better structure your content for sales enablement. If you're a good route, like yeah, you know more about a sales enable for to I you're talking to sales enable with people. You know more about how to structure the content would sales team. We'll use it, do anyone on the planet, and I think everyone has to realize they're an expert at something and sharing your val you or what you do, you're doing it for other people and if they like it, great, if they don't like it, who cares? I think a lot of the reason that holds this back from doing this more it's just fear of this mythical people being like it. To your point that I think that's a lot of people. It's reaction. My friends reaction, certainly when I started to change my instagram stuff, was I got a lot of shit for that, but then people get used to cool with it. I think it's just they're not used to seeing that other side of a persons. You just have to kind of get over it. My first instagram ad that we promoted is like last September and the very first comment that this eighteen old kid put was lame and it was like damn well, yeah, but but honestly that that was actually a turning point for me of like, okay, well, he took the time of comments, so cool, that's awesome. So I think the key is just you have to realize you're doing it for a really start to think, like I'm doing this for other people, like the amount of dams that I get on a daily, weekly basis. This guy put out this video like a month ago about like I just got a scholar I've never met this guy in my life. He was like a subway to his first linked in video he's like I just went back to school. I ended up getting a scholarship, like I want to thank jake dumb lap for like keeping me motivated, and it's just like Whoa, like wow, this is impactful. So there's people that don't care or people that hate on it. You know, fuck them. I don't really give a hand. It's like let the market will speak. If what I'm saying is garbage, the market will tell you it's garbage. You know, yeah, but but the other thing is that it's don't take it personally. I'm ever every post that we put out as an experiment. I'm learning well, that work. I've been more or let's try this, let's do more videos, on to more videos, try playing text that's not try planted. So I just don't have a lot of emotion attached to whether post is really really good or people would say it's you know, people hate on it a lot. That has happened too much happens less. So then again, I my mind with it a change. That's every thing too, but in safe man nobody's trolling. No, nobody's out there really true. Yeah, people like instagram or something like that. It's yeah, if you're going to get starting linked it, it's safe. Yeah, what we have a time for a few more questions. One question just I have because I'm running my own I'm doing my own thing right now. How do you manage the ups and downs emotionally as if, as a founder, you're running your business? And this is true for sales people too. You know, we hear no most of the time. We hear no eight times out of ten. Not You know, if you're an amazing sales person, you're the best sales person there ever has been, you're going to hear no six times out of ten. And if you're an absolute dog shit, you know, horrible sales person, you're here no night times of the ten, but regardless, you're going to hear no more often than you hear yes. What do you tell yourself? What's your because I've seen a lot about this on like din from you. How do you how do you approach every day to make sure that you can handle the ups and downs building your own company and putting yourself out there in a way that doesn't drive you crazy? There's a couple of there's a couple of different things and again just goes back to mature and just fucking up the first like for fight, you learn a lot as you you go through the stages of you know, have figure things out. You know, for me it's all about the plan and executing a plan. So, like you know, we didn't have our first formal, real, real forecast until like two thousand and seventeen, and I'd say last year's like the first time. So having a forecast and being able to manage the business to the forecast. It sounds like so basic. A lot of sales leaders like yeah, in the Shit right like, but I think for me, like that was a really important piece of like how do I look at all the different parts...

...of the business and think about different products and business units differently and really come up with the realistic forecasts where it helps me to sleep at the other thing, I think, again gets back to what I said in the very beginning, is having the vision and just belief. Like I there are certain things that were talking. I know I'm right, like I'm a hundred percent right. I know that we're going to move to more conversational AI is going to replace part of what SDRs are doing, and I'm sorry for all the people that want to say it like there will be less jobs as SDRs or they're going to change so dramatically remarking to calling it. I just there's these transit to me, we're just so, so obvious that we have to start to pay attention to. So for me, I've got'm super passionate about what I'm doing. I love sales. I love it and I think that's a big part of it, having the passion, having the business plan, and if you don't love it, you know you're never going to be great at it. And so I think a lot of my naturation has been more becoming a CEO and not a VP of sales or and that's been that's been a lot of learning for me. But yeah, that's it. And Passion, passion for what you're doing, clear vision of where you want to go, belief and a business plan. Yeah, look like the plans and thing. Do your vet do your best. Is Not a strategy for sales people, for VP's. Do when you're down and you have a plan and you can say I'm what is what I'm doing right, am I tracking to my plant? Okay, I'm beating my plan. Okay, yeah, well, I decided six months ago that this was a good plan. So if I'm beating the plan, everything's okay, and it's okay the only times if you miss the planet, it's okay. It's just it's understanding the why. Well, why did I miss a plan? And I think you know, look, especially as the stakes get higher, and you know, our pay rolls hundreds of thousands of dollar. Eight starts to get and again, this is funded by me, me, right, and I think that that same. But not being able to hear it because we got a plan. I think that that that I always ran, even wize it into it, when I was a wrap. I always ran my day with a plan. I had a tick sheet. I mean cause I need to make etc. I ran my day by the planets after sales wrap. Sales Manager. You have to have a plan for how you're going to get there, and the plan isn't about how I'm going to get there this month's time, to get there next year. When I took over my first sales leadership job, I knew my dad was a termed this team around of the course of six to nine months. Yeah, I'm going to happen over I can get impress on people and do all that, but I needed to uplovel their skills, and uploveding people skills takes time, and so I think, as is a CEO leader, sales, mentor you have to have in the short term, but always that I for the long term. And Are you setting your organization up for success? Yep, makes a lot of sense. Okay, we're at the point of the conversation where we pay it forward. We want to hear about the people that have inspired you or the people that you respect, the books that you're reading that you should think we should you know, what is some content that is not generated by Jake Dunleverer your company, that you want to recommend that we consume or people that we follow or just, you know, places to go, the bread chrome trail that we can follow to to keep learning, to keep better getting there. I'll give you some of the things that I think are the top of mine. For me, one I just read film night's memoirs, which is a couple shoot out shoe dogs. Great Book and as an entrepreneur it was. It was amazing, like I mean he talks about his journey, his you know, him missing payroll and hustling to start Nike and I think as a if you're starting, if you're going to start your own company, or even as a rapid it's not all blitz and Glamor and I think that that was a really helpful book. I really enjoyed that book. Look, I listened to a lot of Gary Vander truck. You can think what you want about Gary. I think Gary has a very positive message, consistent message that he hammers home over and over again. But I really think if you want to know where the guys just been so right about where a tension is headed for the last five to ten years, that I think if you want to understand where marketing and where consumers are headed, I think listening to Gary's podcast or, you know, watching his videos, is really, really critical. And then, candidly, I think there's a lot of people on Linkedin in particular that are doing a lot of like interesting things. I don't know if there's one person in particular that I'm like I shot out or would call out, but I would just say start to listen to more of these people on Linkedin. There's people. What's happening is all these collective leaders are sharing their knowledge. I'm a salesperson. I'm just going to go and read with these people are doing. So, yeah, John Barrows or Trish or these people, I think you just just absorbed or so much content...

...being produce now that go and start absorbing it. Okay, awesome, all right. So I'm sure we I think we know the answer to this question, but I'm obligated to ask it. People are listening to this. They want to get in touch with you. I think you're okay with it. Linkedin, of course. And what's hear? Linkedin? You are jaked on that. It's very brenkedincom forward the word in and then forwards. Last Jake done, my God and my friend. And then, if you want to reach me. You can always hit me up to you on email, Jake at scaled Ska ledcom that work, comboord, instagram, Jake underscorted on that underscore. If you can find jaked on that and instagram and get in respond I will hook I deleted instagram from my phone and facebook and I deleted but just reinstalled twitter because they were all making me upset. Jake, thanks for being on the show. It's been a great conversation and I'll talk to you on Friday for Friday fun the meals. Let's do it, my friend. Thank you. Hey, everybody, it's Sam Jay gibs. This is SAM's corner. You can tell Jake's passion enthusiasm for the art and the science of sales coming through in our conversation. It was a great conversation. A couple takeaways. One of them is just Jake's emphasizing the need to invest in your team and building the right sales technology stack and looking at sales technology as a specific investment as opposed to just looking at us at a cost center. You you need certain elements of technology energy to make the sales team more efficient and more productive, but also to enable them to generate the returns and, frankly, achieve the quota that you want them to, that you want us to, and so you got to really think about making sure that, instead of just continuing to add headcount to your hiring plan, you're thinking about making investments in each person to make them more productive and make them more efficient. We talked about a number that's roughly six thousand dollars per upper person per year, as you know, at five hundred dollars per month in terms of sales technology investment to make sure that people are well prepared to succeed in part of that is, of course, a sales enablement platform, or an Sep, as you might have picked up from the sales engagement book that manny mark and Max wrote from outreach. But of course there's a bunch of other technology inputs, an integration points that need to happen besides the sales engagement and besides just your customer relationship management. So that's one key takeaway. You got to make those investments. The second takeaway that I might present to you is really the virtues of specialization in your career, and one of the things that Jake mentioned was instead of jumping around from buyer personator by our persona. Is there an opportunity in the course of your career to really develop deep expertise around specific types of industries so that you can have the functional expertise in sales at the same time that you have legitimate industry understanding? I think there's certain industries where that's less important. I think the deeper the tech, the more important it is. Spent last year, as cro at behave, ox behaviors makes miche machine learning and artificial intelligence software that processes human communication of vast scale, and you need to know something about how that technology works, about what machine learning actually is, about how what what we mean when we say AI. If you don't know those things, you're just far less effective. Now those are not the only things that you need to know. You need to know about the buyer and about what they do every day and how we going to get heat or sheet promoted as a consequence of purchasing or software. But you do need to have some familiarity with the industry and with the technology that you're selling and I think it's a virtue. So this has been Sam's corner. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to reach out to me, you can. I'm on Linkedin, as you know, linkedincom forward. Slash the word in and then forwards. Sam F Jacobs, if you're interested in participating in revenue collective. We are getting lots and lots of inbound interest and that's exciting. We're looking for VP level or above, folks at high growth companies in sales marketing, customer success or operations that are revenue operators and email me or contact me on Linkedin to learn more. Otherwise, thanks for listening. Before we...

...go, thanks to our sponsors. We've got a new sponsor this week. It's Conga, the leading end to end digital document transformation suite, gocom, gocom forward, salesacker and, of course, thanks to outreach, the leading sales engagement platform. I will talk to you next time.

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