The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

61. How Edvo Seeks to Change The Job Hunt Narrative w/ Shireen Jaffer

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This week on the Sales Hacker podcast, we speak with Shireen Jaffer, CEO at Edvo. Edvo helps people get the best jobs AND finds jobs they may need in the future. She explains how nightmarish the job process used to be and how Edvo strives to change the job search narrative.

One, two, one, three, three, everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the sales hacker podcast. We've got a great show today. We've got sharene Jaffer, the founder and CEO of a company called Edvo. Edvo is really interesting because it's a talent business that flips the script, and so edvo represents candidates as they look for jobs, almost like a talent agency. So it's really, really interesting and we dive deep into the business and all about and we talked a lot about sort of the state of the talent market and what candidates need to do to find the right job and also what companies need to do. Now we've want to thank our sponsors, of course. The first is Conga. CONGA is the leading end to end digital document transformation suite. With Conga you can simplify documents, automate contracts and execute e signature. Also, you can focus on accelerating sales cycles and closing business faster. So go to go dotcomocom forward sales hacker for more information. Our second sponsor, as you know, is outreach. Outreach is the leading sales engagement platform. Outreach support sales reps by enabling them to humanize communications at scale. From automating the soul sucking manual work that eats up selling time to providing actionary into tips on what communications are working best. Outreach has your back. Thanks to everybody that's writing in and supporting the sales hacker podcast. We're going to get to you and thanks in future episodes, but for now I want to dive right into the interview with Sharene draffer, the founder and CEO of Edvo. So take a listen. Hey everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome back to the Sales Haacker podcast. We've got a great show for you today. We've got sharine Jaffer on the show. Shrines the cofounder and CEO of Ed Bow, which is a job search platform that makes it easier for people to identify careers on the upswing, learn how close they are to being the ideal higher and get the support they need to land the best job. Edvo focuses on entry to midlevel sales customer success in marketing roles. Now, her entrepreneurial journey began while studying at the University of Southern California, where she founded skillify at nineteen years old. There she scaled career. Reading this programmed across two hundred twenty schools and bootstrap the company to profitability. Her work gave her insight into the recruiting industry, revealing how one sided it was and how it negatively affected both recruiters and candidates. A today, sharine works hard to bring balance back to the system with her team at Edvo. Sharine, welcome to the show. Thanks and it's good to be here. We're excited to have you. So we know your name, Sharine Jaffer, but and I gave a little bit of a background, but why don't you tell us what is Edvo and just give us a little bit of an overview of the company? Yeah, absolutely. I think before we go into Edvo it's important to tear the inspiration and behind it. So I'll tell you a little bit about my background and how we got to wear Ed Moos today. So I started my career in internal recruiting at northwestern mutual in downtown Los Angeles and I was responsible for our entry level reps and our internship program a lot of them were coming from great schools like us see, Ucla, Stanford, and I recognize that after we hired them, a lot of my time was spent just on ramping them and teaching them basic skills like how to handle your first job and how to deal with your boss for the first time and how to work with colleagues and deal with conflict, a lot of things that schools probably should have taught them. And that's when, after spending about two years at northwestern building their learning and Development Program coaching our interns, becoming the top internship program recognized by Wald and across our network offices, I pivoted and started my last company, skillify, and the motivation behind skillify was again, school students are spending so much time in school it should help them explore their interests validate their interests, so regardless of what major they're pursuing, they had the real world exposure already to really feel confident in the careers that they're about to embark on. So at skill ify we implemented curriculum and career readiness across two twenty schools. Like you mentioned, it was a lot of fun. We impacted thirty six thousand students.

And then my students were graduating and looking for their first and second full time jobs and see him, they had everything that they're tool to have when looking for a job. They had that incredible resume, they had warm referrals into companies. They weren't just applying online, they were networking, they had the internships and they kept coming back to us and saying shream this job search process is still a nightmare. What the heck is going going on? I have no idea what else I can do now to put myself out there and getting offers from companies that I don't necessarily see myself being at long term, and I don't want to get stuck in this vicious cycle of joining a company for a year and then moving on. That is the inspiration behind Ed Bo. We took a hard look at this recruiting industry about a year ago when we started, and we recognize that all of the solutions in the recruiting space for so long have been for companies and helping companies full rules and it's never really been about helping people get jobs. And one of the stats that we've found that really was the icing on the cake and made us commit to Edvo there was no other answer, was a fact that today, on average, it takes thirty six days for a company to fill that entry in mid level role, but for that person to get that same entry in mid level job, they are on average, on the job search for six months. So for Ed Vo We said, Hey, we want to bridge that gap and really create this Candida centric recruiting solution where we're their talent agents. So, just like an athlete has an agent that represents her him and is incentivised to find them the right opportunities where they'll do their best work, at Ed Vo we get to understand our candidates on a deep level, understand how they work, understand where they'll thrive, understand what their lifestyle requirements are so that we can navigate them to opportunities in our network where they can truly be set up for success. That's at though. Okay, so do people hire you? Is that how it works? Yes, so that's a great question. So one of our core pieces that we we recognized when we first started Edvo we fell into this trap that a lot of recruiting solutions fall into is we monetized on the company side. Right. It's, of course, easy to companies have this pain. They need to hire. There used to paying for recruiting solutions, they're used to paying for external stopping agencies. But then the company becomes your customer, and I think that is why, again today, that discrepancy between the thirty six days and six months exists, because everyone search the company. So at Dvo we're completely free to companies and instead, candidates pay us to give them an incredible job search experience that helps them fight the jobs that fit them. So, on the flip side, because we're free to companies, our companies are giving our candidates the best candidate experience because they know in order to work with Edvo and get these high quality candidates for free, they just have to give us their partnership and, you know, make sure that they're not ghosting our candidates, that they're lintening consistent communication with us. They're helping US learn feedback from them so that we can ultimately get them the best candidates throughout their hiring needs. And then, on the flip side, with our candidates, if they work with us and we get them a job in our network that they accept and are with that company for at least thirty days, candidates contribute five percent of their base annual salary to ad fo. Now, if we help them and, you know, supported them through their job search and they ended up getting a job outside of our network. Cool, more power to them. We're happy that we could help, but they owe us nothing at that point. They are you five percent forever, just for the first year, whereas for the first year. Okay, that's interesting. So how do you this seems to be predicated on you having a great pool of candidates, having doing some kind of curation or vetting of the candidates themselves. So how do you? How do you do that? How do you go out and find the candidates, and how do you make sure that the people that dvos representing our great people? Yeah, that's a great question and so important to us. So there's two parts to that one. How...

...do we find the candidates? So we have five major sources that we get our candidates from. One job boards, very typical. We're on all of the major job boards, like every other external staffing solution. So all staffing agencies advertised today on job boards. We make it very clear that our job postings are for companies in our network. We don't release the company names, obviously, but if you're interested, we want to work for Edvo. This is how we work. We're happy to help you find opportunities like the one we've posted. So that's one source. The second search, which is the most exciting for us, our community partnerships. So think about the best black communities, facebook groups that are full of incredibly invested people that care about their jobs, they care about their industry, they care about their rule, and so we're building partnerships with those groups so that when they're on the job search, they use Ed vote as their first stop. Now, a lot of the candidates we work with they have no problem getting job offers, but they understand the opportunity cost of one job searching and to taking an offer that's just the wrong fit. Often Times they'll take an offer and then, once you're in the rule you realize, Oh man, this is absolutely not what I thought it was going to be. So they understand that. So a lot of these communities have high quality candidates that are either passively looking not really actively looking, but they're always open to new opportunities and they use Dvo as their first stop. Third, we have publish a partnership. So we love to partner with some of the best blogs out there podcast. The listeners of that content are, of course, high quality candidates as well. They care about their industry, they care about their rule, so we hope that they understand that dvos out there to essentially help them make that soft job search experience a lot worker. And then, lastly, we have university partnerships because we do enter the mid level rules. Some of our best candidates also are from the alumni programs or soon to be graduates or recent grads with graduation right around the corner. So that's where we're finding our candidates. To answer your question number one now. Second, how do we make sure those candidates are actually high quality? That is so fun for me to talk about. When we started Atvo, any time they launch a new rule. So, for example, my SDRs, before I started helping or supporting SDR candidates, I went and talked to, or not made but EDVO. All of us. We all went and talk to top performing sales development wrap, their managers, SNB account executives, because they were typically strs right before, and we talked about what are the scenarios you've faced in the field? That our most common. So of course we're my SDRS. It's the cold calling, it's the prospecting processes, it's dealing with rejection, it's creating email copies and trying to figure out what works for their audience. It's working with the marketing teams and making sure they have good, personalized content that they can leverage. Right. So we create the scenarios and then we have the top performers actually go through ten to twelve free response scenario and situational questions. So, for example, one of the questions we have is you have to make fifty cold calls today and send fifty emails. What do you do? And based on the data we've now collected from these top performers, we've created this quote unquote, scoring rubric and when candidates come through the dvo platform, which is chat based, they answered these tell ten to twelve free response questions. So there's no gaming it, there's no multiple choices, there's no leading questions. They just say what they believe is a right answer, what they would do in that situation. And if it candidate tells me, Hey, that's a lot, I'm going to get up early, I'm going to get my cup of coffee, I'm going to get on my computer, I'm going to hit it. That's not the wrong answer, is just not a good answer, but that shows us, hey, this person's willing to get up early and do it. Maybe they're, you know, more fit for an entry entry, entry level str role, where the company also has great training programs. They can train them up and as long as this candidate has the transferable soft skills, they could be a good str why is that a bad answer? Because for to really be a strong SDR what we found is a candidate that tells us, Hey,...

...the reality of this is fifty fooled calls and fifty emails. There needs to be a strategy behind it. There's it's not just a smile and dial so I need to make sure I have my targeted account list. I need to make sure that, based on my clientele, I know what it where, the right times to send out emails versus one of the rice right time to make those cool calls. I need to make sure I'm leveraging outreach and I have my email sequence as ready. I want to make sure I've got my marketing team sending me good content for my follow ups right. So if, and a lot of our great stair candidate is actually break down their prospecting process their targeting processes, and again, when we're comparing them to the data we collect from these top performers, were able to tell them, hey, based on the market demands today, this is how great of a fit you are for this str rule, and that is the same type of information we give to our employer partners and they get all of it verbatim on what the candidate said, so they can understand where this SDR is at or where this smb account executive is at. Do you promise the SDRs or the people that you're representing that you will get them more money than they would get otherwise? So typically, by working with us, one of the inherent like services that adver prides is pre negotiating compensation, and the way that works is because we have such a deep relationship with our employee partners, we know what their ranges, we know their minimum, their ideal and, of course, the maximum they're willing to go. We also have historical that out on what candidates have made at those companies. So on the flip side, when a candidate comes in and they have a minimum and a maximum, I'm able to help them, based on where they're at, how well they fit the role, what I know about the company, tell them, Hey, actually, you know, you kind of fall into this like more minimum range or hey, you know you can actually command this maximum range. So we try to be as honest as strategic as possible on both sides because we want to create a win win. But absolutely what we've seen as candidates by working with Edvo, just because most of them don't know how to negotiate or just don't have transparency into salaries, they end up making at least ten percent more by just working through at phone. Interesting. And if you're charging five percent and let's say a high end base sellery for an str would I be right and saying it's around Fiftyzero? Absolutely. So that's twenty five hundred bucks spread. And do they pay it all in one lump sum or they pay it kind of every paycheck? Yeah, so we it's a hybrid of both. Right. So we have it splod across the three payments the and you can have it on your credit card, R depit card. We're not trying to mess with your paycheck or your bank account details, so you can just pre authorize it. We don't collect a lump sum. It's on across three payments thirty days after you start with the company. So thirty days later the first third of the payment is charged. Sixty days later, the second, third, ninety days later the third interesting. And so you're at twenty five hundred per candidate, obviously much less than a traditional recruiting service. You're going to need to work with a very large number of people in order to build a big business. Unless are there other revenue streams or tell us about, like how you're planning on Scaling Up Ed vow as as you become more successful? Yeah, absolutely, so. We've recognized quite a few opportunities, one being, you know, we've got all of these incredible educational institutions coming out these coding boot camps, E. Learning, these sales boot camps, and they're doing such a good job delivering relevant curriculum, which, unfortunately, our traditional schools aren't doing the best job of right now, and that relevant curriculum is helping these students up skill and, you know, be ready for these str level bls. But what I see a lot of our learning programs and these New York companies struggling with is actually facilitating those job outcomes. And so are one of the as we're talking to more of these learning institutions, understanding where they're investing, what their operational layers look like. We're seeing this opportunity of essentially being an outcomes engine for a lot of these learning partners. So once their students are ready, they get introduced to Dvo, we can facilitate a job outcome. Ideally within...

...you know, the average right now is six months, like worldwide. For us it's ideally within the first month we facilitate a job outcome, but we want to do and no more than ninety days. A job outcome is a job offer, callings one. Okay, got yeah, I actually wanted to go a step forward and say it's not just a job offer, but it's a job acceptance, right, because it's not going to be good if our candidates are getting offers but they don't want to accept them. So for as as an outcome is a candidate actually accepts that job offer. Cool, that's cool. How did you I guess you know, if we've got people out there listening that are that are working in a lot of different jobs, that are wondering about starting their own business, how did you figure out or decide that you wanted to be a founder? was there series of questions that you answered for yourself? Was it just you were young and sort of the opportunity cost at that point in your life was low. How did you come to the determination to be, you know, to be a CEO? Yeah, that's a great question. I don't there's definitely an opportunity cost analysis that I did. So, you know, I started skillify when I was nineteen and I was still a fulltime student at USC and I was still working at northwestern mutual. So I was a little insane, pretty too happy to be so I I really looked when I when I graduated, as see, I had a choice. I could either accept a job offer that I had on the table that was, you know, that wouldn't allow me to be comfortable, or I could do scalify. And my parents are not business owners. I don't have any business owners in my family. They're very structure and my mom's a nurse, my dad has worked in purchasing at a very you know, at a hospital, my brother's a doctor. So when I told them I want to go full time but scillify there of course they were concerned and they wanted me to, you know, feel good and feel comfortable and have structure and grow and learn. And I didn't necessarily have their encouragement, although I did have their support. So the opportunity cost analysis I did Sam was I looked at the job offer I had from the full time role and I looked at the salary and I said Hey, and my first year had skillify. If I don't matter exceed this salary profit wise I will think about other things. I am giving myself one year to make the same amount of profit that I would if I were to take this job offer, and that made sense to me at that time and fortunately I worked really hard and it worked out and we did exceed that. You know, our revenue and our profit did exceed what I was going to make as a salary and it was just me and one other person. So that is all of the analysis I did to say hey, I want to do skillify. But up until that point, I think for me it was I cared deeply about certain pain points that I see in our world and if I can't when I was going through and learning about the industry, I couldn't necessarily find organizations that were doing work that I also resonated with in a very deep fashion. So when I was doing skillify, my heart, my soul, I was learning so much and made so much sense for my career that that opportunity cost Analyssi was really the only thing that I needed to prove to give myself that piece of mind of okay, I'm going in and I'm I'm doing this as a cofounder and CEO and I'm moving forward. Do you have an engineering degree or you a are you a coder? Absolutely not, absolutely not. Add a Scillafy, I was a solo founder and I bootstrapped at and Daniel, who is now my Cteo at Ed Bow, he actually was my technical advisor at shillify, so he helped us automate a lot of the you know, the coaching work we did and build out their right type of technology foundations that we needed. But absolutely not. I'm not an engineering degree. I have a degree in business. I'm with an emphasis and entrepreneurship, specifically social entrepreneurship. Wow, and what's been the biggest? I mean, I'm sure there's been a many, many challenges, but you know what, when you think back and reflect on the last couple of years, the biggest challenge that you've overcome, the biggest obstacle that...

...you've overcome, whether it's, you know, internal or external? Hmm, I think it's about maintaining a balance between growth and operations and making sure your company can sustain that. So I think we're in a in a space where the atmosphere, the funding atmosphere, is also changing. I think people are, you know, now giving more emphasis to ability to make money and and have some profit and the revenues and growth. And so I see a lot of companies and we fell in this trap where it was just about go, go, go, we're off to the races, make money, get this product out, you know, and just just try to find all the revenue Strans when they come back and fix all of the operation layers later. And I think there needs to be I believe there needs to be a sense that a bounce between the two, because I've seen a lot of companies, a lot of founders that I've spoken to, that a point now two years in, where they're doing really well revenue wise, but they're missing a lot of key data tracking operations. They don't have a good understanding of where their team is at and who they really even need for that company to get to the next level. So I think one of the challenges early on is just, you know, when you're so young and you're so you have to make money. You've got to one prove that your product works and there's a market and they're willing to pay for your product, but then to also pay the bills and make sure you can hire the right people and grow. There needs to be a sound since I bounced between that type of mindset and hey, okay, but I also need to make sure my group can sustain or my team can sustain itself and my business can sustain itself and my product can be built in the right ways, so there's not this moment where we just plateau or pression burn for lack of birds. So that's that's what that's what I would say is is one of the biggest lessons I've learned or challenges we've overcome. That's I think, by that resonates with me at least. So I think that's a great lesson. So the first of all, thank you for that, for that background and for sharing that. We're working in a in an organization, in a company that that is built around the hiring market and built around, you know, matching great candidates to great companies. What's your take on the current economy? That the fact that unemployments at an all time. Low Are we headed for? I guess the question is if I'm coming out of Undergrad or I'm just you know, I didn't go to Undergrad, but I'm am eighteen, nineteen, twenty, twenty one year old youngster looking to make my way in the world of sales, customer success, etcetera, or marketing. How should I be thinking about managing my career in the current economic environment and the current job climate? And and what sort of lessons are pieces of advice do you give people as they come into their first job? Absolutely so loaded question, something I talk about in did so first of all as where do I see the market today? So I with the unemployment being so low, one of the things that we've recognized is it's not low because people love their jobs and everyone is thriving and everyone's getting paid what they should get paid and everyone's, you know, helping their company's ground. That's not why unemployment is low. A lot of what we're seeing from the conversations were having the data we've looked into, is people at this point are settling for jobs. More than eighty percent are open to new opportunities. Six million people switch jobs every single month and the US so there's a lot of bouncing happening, there's a lot of settling happening and a lot of people right now in their rules, are not necessarily happy with where they are, and it could be for a variety of reasons. It could be compensation related, it could be growth related, it could be fitch related. They're in a role that you know, they had to take because it was an offer they got, but it's not necessarily something they love. How much reparation, one part of me wants to say, is some part of all this bouncing around the some mismatch between people's narrative about themselves and sort of what their expectation of what work is...

...versus the reality of what work is. Because, you know, you hear people talk about find your passion and do what you love and first of all, most young people, you know, or at least when I was young, I didn't know what my passion was. Yeah, and I didn't know what I loved and I kind of miss identified being passionate about something like movies and and work and saying, well, if I love movies, I need to work in the film industry, which isn't isn't quite the same things. I didn't really have any skills to contribute at that point to the film industry. Do you think that that's some do think there's some education that's required to tell people what is the reality of the work that they should expect, that they're not, you know, disillusioned within the first six months, for example? Absolutely, and I think it's a miscommunication between companies and people. So people don't necessarily know and it's so going back to the first comment you had made, right, is it about people articulating their skills out in a way where they they might be a good fit for the job, or they think they're good f for the job, but once they get in there it's not true? I think it's it's kind of on both sides where they look at the candidates look at a job description, because that's a really all there is today to learn about what a company does, unless they're networking in and talking to people in the rule today and really getting a deep understanding of what their role is actually about. The majority of people have just the job description, so they use that and then the companies are using this one page resume to understand if this person has these skills and behaviors that they want and then they're using this interview process between a person and a person that's of course full of lots of bias and whatnot, to get out information if this person will truly be a good fit in the role. So I think there's a communication problem where we need to do a better job of really understanding internally what are the skills and behaviors and attributes that make someone successful in this role. And I often see companies coming to me and saying, okay, well, I need two years of sales experience, Insas consultative sales, for sure, and I need that bachelor's degree, which of course now is being less emphasized, think, thankfully. But then I also need someone who's absolutely use sales force and hop spot and Blah, blah, blah, right, and there's all these requirements. And then I have candidates who have some of those requirements and they feel like if it was just the resume that there were basing off of, they would feel like, Oh, if this candidate doesn't match all of my checklist, it's that's not even worth than interview because of course or Burger's time is already spent on doing so many resume screams. They don't even have to add that conversation. On the flip side with the candidate. They have no idea what the companies are truly valuing and how to truly articulate their skill sets. So all they know is I've got this job description in my interview, if I get one, I have to go down this responsibility list and make sure I hit all of the duties that they've said we will need to do in this role. And then they get into that job and they recognize, Oh wow, specialized in early stay start up. Things are changing all the time, so those duties sometimes change almost every three months and there's a lot of unless you have the soft skills of being able to tap to change and being able to just push forward and problem solve and critically think and have a good balance between working autonomously and but then also have this collaborative you know, these are really hard behaviors to gage for just off of a resume. So I think that's where a lot of this misfit and jumping around is happening. Is there's just a lack of communication on both sides. It's not just the candidate not being able to truly articulate. You know, what they bring to the table. What do you think about this statement, which is that I understand that there's people out there that love being an str but I think that the reality is that even with amazing, amazing tools, the best tools like outreach, our sponsor, who we love. We love you, outreach, but even with tools like outreach, it can be a tough job. It's a tough job. I am a career salesperson. I can tell you it's a tough job. It's you're doing a lot of work, it's very repetitive, you're hearing no a tremendous amount of time. You don't get to participate...

...in the sales process. You're just, you know, doing the first part of it, which is trying to get meetings. Yet you know, twenty meetings set in June, time to do it again in July. So how prepared do you think people are just for that reality that listen, whether or not it's a good fit, it's going to be a grind and it's a grind because it's on the way to bigger and better things down the road. But you have to be for do you think people are prepared for that reality? Yeah, I would so. Do things there one are people prepared and to how do you help even, and this was going back to the first question you had, is how do even people approach taking an SDR type role that is so repetitive and difficult? But then how do they think about their career right long term? So the first point, I think especially with my with my with my candidates who are on the job search process for a long time. These candidates are applying to thousands of jobs, hundreds of jobs, and they're dealing with rejection all the time. I think when you're in school you are doing a lot of repetitive work all the time. So I think it comes down to, is this someone who has this do what it takes attitude? Is this someone who doesn't just like handle rejection but goes deeper and understands why they're being rejected in the first place? So they can change up the email content a little bit here and they're depending on, you know, what the data says. They can change up their pitch on that voicemail. So I think it's people are if they understand the reality of it. So that goes back to the communication piece. If they understand that it's not just about making a hundred cold calls a day. I think that's what job description say and why people get so scared is I'm going to stay here, I'm just going to make a hundred coll calls a day. It's hey, you're making a hundred cool calls a day, because the reality is a lot of people's businesses are doing their job and so they're they're not just sitting there answering every single phone call. So you're actual pick up ratio and you're you know, conversion there is going to be a lot lower and that leads to you ma making those phone calls and if you're not getting a good response, these are the metrics that are sdrs today see and if you're not in these metrics will there's opportunities for you to maybe make your pitch better. So if companies start really detailing what the str rule really is, it's not just a hundred cool calls, it's more created, that's more strategic, it's more collaborative. Get feedback from SDRs that are crushing it. I think people, and this is what we do at Edvo, and when we when we help people understand that and we related to the experience they've had, all of a sudden they're like abs a freaking loudly. I'll do that's specially and going to your nextpression, especially if eighteen months and an str roll, hitting these metrics will help me then go into an account executive rule or an account manager role and they can see the bigger picture. They can see why that eighteen month or twenty four month or maybe twelve month grind is needed. So, for example, one of the partnerships team member I have at Edvo. He was actually an Edvo candidate and he has years of sales experience, but it's because he's a seven eleven franchise. At the age of twenty one, he started his first seven eleven, scaled it over seven seven eleven. He has all his bed experience and management experience, but he understands he needs to get into technology sales for the health of his career. So he came to the dvo experience didn't do so hot on our account executive assessment, or should what he thought he was ready for. We gave him personalize feedback where his skill gaps were, appointed him to different content he can take and four months later he retook the assessment and did really well and we got him into final interviews with threever employer partners and then the beauty of Edvo is, we know what town does really, really awesome. We ended up, you know, hiring him ourselves and he recognized that for his career. He right now is an SDR. He needs to put the work in, not just because you're you're just doing the grind to then one day deserve to be acount executive. That's not the reason. It's you need to put the work in. So you lay down your foundations. You learn how to use sales forts, you learn how to use outreat you learn how you know people's sentiment are when you call them or says,...

...when you email them versus when you just show up. Those are just foundational things you need to learn to then crush it as an account executive. So I feel like, as people out there, you're thinking about your careers and you're thinking about, you know, what you need to build the lifestyle. That's how you need to think about it. What is the lifestyle you want? What is the ideal compensation you want to be making? What type of environment do you want to be working in? Identify what companies or rules or jobs fit within the lifestyle. That's realistic and then understand what skills you need to get there. So if, Sam for you, if you did that process and realized, Oh man, I don't really have the skills to go into film, you have the decision there. You're either going to work your butt off to develop those skills or you're going to look at the opportunity to cost and see, okay, well, my strengths are actually in line with these other jobs. Are those jobs still going to let me live that lifestyle, because that's what's most important to people these days? Then then you'll realize, oh, you know what, film could be a passion but really my transferable skill set, my creative skill set, will be better used in this career, which is way closer to my reach and still allows me to live that lifestyle. Interesting, good feedback. When we flip this the equation and we focus on the companies versus the candidates, and companies are are also, I mean are primarily the victims of all of this transition, of people staying in jobs, you know, six months, twelve months, eighteen months, and people well, I don't know if it's a problem. Maybe it's not a problem. Maybe, you know, it's just the evolution of capitalism and you know the GIG economy and all of that. But if I am a company and I want to keep people past the point where I'm investing in them and they're ramping and I want them at full productivity and I want to create, I want to retain the top talent, what do you what do you recommend or how do you advise companies to build a program that not just acquires great people but keeps them around? Absolutely so I want to make two clarifications. One, I don't think companies are the primary victims of this problem, right. I think a candidate leaving six months a company has it cost them a ton of money. For sure. I mean I as a hiring Mana surefts have been a victim of this. But yes, it costs time and money for us as a business. But for that candidate to then have to leave after six months if it's a bad fit, you know, ignore any other conse of or reasons for them leaving. But if it's for the reason of a bad fit they leave after six months, guess what? If they're looking for other jobs, no recruiter wants to interview them necessarily because being at a company for less than two years as a red flag in our industry, right. So they get stuck in this Fisher cycle and then second a business again. With their recruiting solutions can still fill that rule within thirty six days. That candidate that just left after six months or a year will on average be on that job search for six months. So I do think this is a problem that impacts candidates people more so than companies today. But to answer your question, I think with our companies the best thing you can do to retain your top talent it's one understand what your top talent even looks like. Right. What are the attributes, behaviors, the skill sets to when you're interviewing for that top talent or someone who can be, you know, at the someone who can grow into it? It needs to be a team wide effort. It's not just up to the recruiter to identify that person and then the hiring manager to identify that person and then it's done. It needs to be a team wide effort that's collaborative, because that will be good for both the company and the candidate. The candidate will also get a better idea of what it means to truly succeed in that company. So today the process, for example, if you're hanging for sales and typically is that initial recruiter screen. The recruiter either seeser as a mayor here is about you from an intron referral, whatever it may be. He or she gets on a phone call with you. It's typically twenty to thirty minutes and the recruiter typically has a score card and it's a it's a scorecard that's half metrics oriented. So has this person done x amount of cold cause before? Has this person sold into SASS before? Has this person dealt with in bound versus outbound? Right?...

So there's those kind of like hard skills and then it's software skills up two. has this person worked at a startup before or exhibit the soft skills needed to thrive in a more early stage startup environment? If that's the environment? And so she's or he is really checking off these boxes on the score card. And then, lastly, because it's a sales rule, the recruiter is also looking for can this person just like sell themselves? Is the personality there? Are they aware of the product, that they've done their research, because they're going to be in a rule that requires all those skill sets. So the recruiter screen is there really to just understand can I put this person in front of my hiring manager and how will my hiring manager perceive this person? Because at the end of the day day, internally a recruiter is really the hiring manager is the client of an internal recruiter, right. That's the relationship they have. So that's a recruiter screen. Then typically goes into a behavioral interview before the recruiter passes this person off to the hiring manager. So that behavioral interview is typically like Hey, you know, Charlotte, it's been great talking to you on this recruiter call. I think you'll you could be a great fit for this role. But before I pass you off to my hiring manager, I would love to kind of give you an exercise, and that exercise for sales rule might be leave a voice mail as if you had called a prospect. Of course they and pick up. What would you say on that voice man or Hey, show me a draft of a prospecting email that you would send and what is your cadence for following up? So that's usually the beher over owner of your part. And then if they do that, well then it goes to the hiring manager and then the highermander typically typically asks the same exact questions, but that recruiter asked in that initial phone screen. So you can imagine how you know. Unless a recruiter and hiring manager has they have incredible communication and they're asking deeper questions and separate questions to really understand holistically of this candidate can be the right person. Usually that communication doesn't exist and so one for the hiring manager they're just asking the same exact questions and too for the candidate they're answering the same exact questions. So the interview is in that meaningful and it doesn't allow you to have the opportunity to exchange newer information and go deeper to truly make sure this is a good fit. That's where I say one of the biggest things you can do as a recruiter in your organization, and again coming from being an internal recruiter, is treat your hiring managers as if they were your clients, and there needs to be any time you know a higher menager says hey, I need to hire two more strs, you need to have a launch call or an onboarding call with your hiring manager to really understand. Okay, outside of the job description, what do you need in this str what are the deal breakers? What are the nonnegotiables? If the person has x, Y and Z but doesn't have ABC, is that a no go? Really asking those questions so that you can have a wider net of on the candidates that could be a great fit to your high manager. And as I have a question. Yeah, so this is me being skeptical. Chemical is there really a difference between what different companies need from an str aren't all the qualities essentially the same? We've had marco bears on the show from from hub spot and and he's incredible, but he talked about, you know, the profile that you know they put together for hub spot and there was really nothing on there that every company doesn't need. Every company needs antellectual curiosity, every company needs drive. Are there really differences? Or or maybe I'm wrong, maybe there are differences and I'm just I'm just a knife. Yeah, you pointed out something really good. You're talking about rule specific skill sets. Are there major differences of that? Absolutely not. But for an SDR to thrive at one company versus another company, it comes down to management styles, the hiring manager is typically going to manage that SDR. I have had SDRs that have gone offers from comparable companies, same industry, pretty much competitors, and one company hired that SDR and one company did it. The other company just didn't even think they were good SDR. But it came down to the manjum style within that company would not have fit that SDR. That is the difference. That is why the recruiter and...

...the hiring manager and team why a communication needs to take place so that we can understand in this specific organization, what kind of str do we need it to thrive? Yeah, and that's where you also need to be. You need to have the vocabulary to really describe your culture accurately in a way that's neither where you're not just using kind of like value Laden or judgment late in terms where you're just trying to be direct and honest about what does it actually like to work at this place? And maybe we swear a lot or maybe we don't swear a lot, or maybe we're, I don't know, superdirect or not. So parn't. So I think dough my hiring managers out there and do my recruiters out there honestly, ask your self or ask each other what are the common scenarios we face every single day? That's it just asks. Figure out the scenarios, and I understand. How do we face these scenarios and then use that to judge candidates? When we try to really do like the black and white like do we swear a lot? Do we nod what type of culture we have and it's a yes or no question, it's very difficult because so much of that is self reported data and it's not necessarily thoughtful. Versus when you actually point out what are the difference scenarios we face every single day and what do we do in these scenarios and what type of person we want that will do something similar in the scenarios, that's going to help you really find the right culture. Fed I like it Sune. We're almost at the end of our time together and so at this point what we like to do is pay it forward a little bit and talk about influences, whether those are books or podcasts or people that have been really influential in your life that we want to give some credit to. So when you think about maybe it's books that you that you reread often that I really have a profound influence on you or people that have had a huge impact on you. You know what comes to mind. So one of the books, that's a good question. So I recently read, and it's something that I plan on reading again and again, that has had a huge influence on me and the way I think, is a book called factfulness. Ten reasons were wrong about the world. I promise it's not as cynical as it sounds, but I don't I don't mind cynicism. It's a well, it's a great it's a great read around what is truly happening in our world. was what does the data truly say? And data can be skewed at always right. So really understanding it's in a deeper way so you can reframe your mindset or just be more aware of the biases and the misconceptions that we fall into every single day. So that is definitely a book I recommend everyone to read. It's a quick read and it's so, so good. factfulness. That's what it's called factfulness by I believe it's I know the last name is Ros Lang hands, Ross laning. I think he started with his son and daughter in life. I think they have three Co wrote it my friends and I. On our group WHATSAPP. We have a phrase and that phrase is googleble so if you, if, if you're hearing, if you're out there in the world hearing the title Factfulness, I assure you that Google will tell you, will show you the way screen. If we're out there listening and maybe we were really inspired and we want to be a candidate that I vote, represents, or maybe we want to work for Edvo, where we just want to reach out and get in touch with you. What's your preferred method of communication? Email me. We're totally hiring internally, so reach out. If you're excited about at Bo or if you are an employer partner that wants edvo candidates for free, reach out. And then, lastly, if you need help finding a job, reach out, but email is best. Sharene at dvocom. You can all go on my linkedin and reach out that way. Awesome, Sharine, thanks so much for being on the salesacker podcast. CONGRATS ON LAUNCHING EDVO and we look forward to following your success in progress over the next couple months and years. Thanks so much, Sam, I appreciate it. Take care. Hey, everybody, it's SAM's corner. Really interesting conversation with Sharene Jaffer,...

...the founder and CEO of Ed Vo, and this is a new model that I think we may see more and more of. Edvo is an agent that represents you, the sales professional, and tries to get you a better deal, the right company, the right fit, and much the same way that sports agents represent athletes, and the model they've constructed is very innovative. They take five percent of your first year salary but in exchange, hopefully they've helped you find a better job. She mentions that they help you get ten percent more typically than the traditional candidate. So I think that there's something to this, particularly in a job market and unemployment market where you know there's there's historic laws and unemployment candidates really have a lot more leverage and and you have the ability and opportunity to have somebody represent you on your behalf and ways that other noteworthy and skilled professionals have across different industries. Now she also talks about just sort of understanding what the work is going to be and really focusing on trying to match your temperament and what it's like to work at that company and doing due diligence about what it's like to work at that company, as you go through your job interview process and as you understand what it's going to be like to be an str I also think it's really important to have realistic expectations. That's sort of the point I was making to her in this interview, which is, listen, it's still work, right. So I know that everybody tells you follow your passion, follow your heart, but it's not all going to be, you know, playing in the NBA and shooting threes with Steph Curry. It's going to be work. Some days it's going to suck. That's okay. What you need to do is you need to have a long term perspective on your life in your career. You need to put in the work and if you put in that work and you have and you have a positive attitude and you understand that great things require a long time of being really, really excellent, persistent and organized, you're going to have great things. Now I talk about this a lot. Larry Page was being interviewed by the note Kostla and he talked about Google. He said that one of their competitive advantages as their time. Horiz and I think the I'm paraphrasing, but you can get less than you think accomplished in a quarter and way more than you think accomplished in ten years. So if you have a long time horizon on your career, if you don't need to be, you know, in the hall of fame by nine months into your tenure at a job, you're going to have an advantage over the people that are in patient, the people that are in patient, that are jumping ship the minute that they don't get promoted to a e. The people that you know had one good quarter and are, you know, crying about needing a raise or whatever it may be. Those people are great people to compete with, because all you have to do is keep your head down and do an amazing job. And if all you do is is tell yourself, I'm going to be in the hall of fame, but I'm going to be in the hall of fame when I'm in my mid S or early S, as opposed to in my mid S, you're going to have a competitive advantage. So give yourself that competitive advantage and have a long term perspective on your career. Now this has been Sam's corner, this has been the sales hacker podcast. If you want to see show notes, the upcoming guests play more episodes from our incredible lineup of sales leaders, visit sales hackercom and head to the PODCAST TAB. If you haven't given a feedback rating on the salesacker podcast, please do so. Please give us five stars. If you think that it sucks, then don't give us any feedback at all, but if you're a happy listener, give us five stars. Tell your friends, go into the itunes store and give us that feedback. If you want to reach out to me, you can on Linkedin. It's linkedincom in, Sam f Jacobs. We'd love to hear from you. And finally, thanks to our sponsors for this episode, Conga, which is the leading end to end digital document transformation suite and outreach, the leading sales engagement platform. And you know what I'm going to say. I'll see you next time.

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