The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

7. How to Align Marketing and Sales With Demand Gen w/ Andrea Kayal

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

On this episode of the Sales Hacker podcast, we talk with Andrea Kayal, Chief Marketing Officer at Upserve and most recently Chief Marketing Officer at Signpost.

One, two, one, three, three. Before we get started, we want to thank this month sponsorintroducing Gong Dot Io, the number one conversation intelligence platform for sales. Gonghelps you generate more revenue by having better sales conversations. It automatically captures andanalyzes your team's conversations so you can transform your team into quota shattering supersellars.Visit Gong Dot io forward slash sales packer to get in on the action andsee it list. And now on with the show. Hey everybody, I'mhere with Andrea Kle, the chief marketing officer of Sign Post. Were soexcited to have her on the sales packer podcast. I want to tell youa little bit about Andrea. She's, in my opinion, the best marketerin New York City, at a minimum, and she's one of the people thatI rely on for a lot of guidance around marketing in general, butdemand generation specifically. But let me read your bio. As the chief marketingofficer, Andrea is responsible for marketing, customer success and business operations at signpost. Her focus areas are demand generation, brand messaging, creative marketing, automation, marketing, communications, PR marketing, sales alignment and customer retention. Beforejoining signpost, Andrea led marketing teams at time link Lua and sale through andbefore transitioning into tech, she worked at Octagon, where she managed global marketinginitiatives for BMW and Master Card. She went to the unit versity of Michigango blue and received her MBA from American University. Welcome and DRIA. Thanks, Sam and thanks for the kind words. And YASCO blue. We're happy tohave you. I'm happy to have you. So to frame your experiencefor everybody, because they don't know you as well as I do, let'stalk about what we call your baseball card. So we know your name, AndrewKale Cemo at sign post. Tell us a little bit about sign post. Who are they? What do they do? Sure, so sign postis an AI driven crm which basically drives reviews and revenue for local service businesses. So it is more S ANDB and mid market focused. Previously I wasfocused on on enterprise, but that's sort of a high level of sign post. Okay, and Revenue Range for the company. So we know how bigit is. Generally speaking, sign post is twenty to twenty five million,but when I've joined this company and my previous company sailed through. We werearound the nine to ten million dollar range. So in both cases I've seen sortof we've doubled the there exactly. Doubling is good. We like todouble and your experience is Saale through is awesome. So, and you know, we know a lot of the same people like Dave goven from from yeah, how much money has have you guys raised? So we're in CE.We raised about twenty million dollars. Okay. And then this size of the orgso we understand the context. Like how big is the organization that you'rerunning, both the marketing organ if you have insights on the sales team inthe STR's, I would be great. Sure. So sign post is abouta hundred and fifty person organize. Station got a hundred of those. Alittle bit less are in sales roles. So we have a very, veryheavy sales focus business and I oversee three departments or three functions. So firstmarketing and revops. Those are the two that I see that generate the demandand then alternately, on the other side of the business, I oversee abouta forty person customers success organization. So now I'm responsible for working with thesales seem to generate the revenue, but I have to worry about the cashleaving the business as well. How do you feel about that? Do youdo it? Is that the right alignment? Honestly, it's a fantastic it's goingto be from fantastic, you know, perspective, because you know usually marketingis responsible for driving leads to sales leaders or sales accepted leads or,you know, whatever the terminology the business is using, and you're really worriedabout the quality of that business. But frankly, that the most important thingis not only the quality for the sales seem to close the deal, butit's is the fit of the business a match, because you have to rotainthey cash on any other end. Right like in anybody looking at the businessin terms of like the value that they're going to give you when they eitheracquire you or or whatever your ipowing,...

...they want to make sure that thecustomers actually use the product. In our are staying on for a long time. So it's been massively beneficial to me as just a marketer to know bothyou know, what's good for revenue driving, but then, like which businesses aregood for retaining. Yeah, I've seen customer success report to sales allthe time. In fact I've run those organizations. But I don't know thatI've seen customer success report to markets marketing when we were doing sort of thedesign for our business or design for the business. You know, and Iwas talking in the CEO about this, that the head of sales today hasmassive you know, his responsibility for revenue is is sort of like has alot of breath and we have nearly seven sales channels and the reason it reportsto marketing today. Want is, you know, sort of a capacity issue. But to we're working on actually making the customer success or more of arevenue generation. You know, today it's more like a revenue retention. Notall. When we change that it we may move the ORG under a differentleader, but today it's been just one day to point here on customer success. Interestingly enough, when I took over the org it was much larger thanit is today. But the good news is we've taken the org in termsof like cost had count, like the cost of revenue, down twenty percentyear over year and we've increased our attention improve it twenty percent year over year. So the good news is we're making some really great progress on the CSside, but it's like, for at least for this group, it's helpfulperspective and in terms of the we drive. Yeah, so it's been good news. That's am it will typically what we do is get your life story, but I might stay here for a second because that's kind of amazing andalso just as a testament to your capabilities. A lot of people ask me whereshould XYZ function? report. There's a ways that you can design theorganization, but a lot of the Times it's just the capabilities and talent ofleadership, and so if you've got a leader like you, you get moreresponsibility and if thanks SAM, so, it's so kind of you to saythat. The funny thing is, though, it's you know, that's a doubleedged sword. I mean, you know now I have departments. Thegood news is, yes, that I feel thankful that the CEO like empoweredme to basically take a project and get good people around it and like solvea problem. I think that that's really key. You need to know thatyour your leader can do that. But also, as we scale, Ithink that that's been the most exciting part of this job for me has justbeen being able to like tackle the challenges to it's been really fun. Itkeeps it interesting. So, you know, we don't want to be too mercenaryabout this, but you lowered cost twenty percent and you increase retention twentypercent. What did you do differently or any key tactics or insights that youlearned over the last I guess it's your running customer success that we can sharewith the audience. Yeah, when I inherited the Org, I would say, and this is basically this is an answer to one of the questions thatI reviewed below, which is like, what is the biggest driver between successand failure in your most recent role? I can answer that very specifically,at least as it relates to see us. That's removing complexity. We had alot of people doing sort of very complicated cs management and like a lotof complicated systems feeding into how they did their day to day job. Sowhat I did was I just looked holistically at like all the roles that Ibroke down basically the time they're spending on in the role and we cansolidated task. So I think the long and the short as is when we sign upas assign post merchant. They were going between different CS teams. I basicallycombined all those teams and gave that one account manager the responsibility of all ofthose. But that allowed us to scale. So we you were constrained artificially bylike sort of these like small teams. We now gave everybody the account fromstart to finish, which allowed them to grow their books way beyond,you know, sort of the artificial constraints that were in there. And Ithink it was just a matter of, like I said, removing the complexity, like with all that complicated process in there. It really it was avery high tax and encumbered us from sort of scale. So that's Ay.You know the long and the short of it. Yeah, so the counterargument would be will specialization of labor is itself a form of simplicity? Andif the account manager, are you saying that? Basically, maybe you hadan onboarding team or an implementation team and then you have like an ongoing CSteam and you made all of that one...

...thing exactly. The requirements and theactivities still exist. Did you consolidate platforms? Did you put everything on I don'tknow, gainsight or to tango or sales force in some way to removethe systems that were required to execute those tasks. You know, actually itwas just first it was labor and then, to your point on technology, wehave a sales worse developer. That's fantastic, because we have a hundredpeople relying on sales force. We actually need our own developer to to sortof manage the assist the load on the system. Yeah, we built ourown version of gain site and only a matter of two days with our developersbecause we felt like we knew which indicators of success or failure for our customersbetter than gains. I was going to come in with their like recommendations.We were like luck in our particular case we have two key metrics that weknow are going to be really positive indication of this customer on their way,and that actually has to do with the amount of context that they email theirbusiness and separately, we use other inputs like their npscore and you know.So we said like look, we think we know what these variables are.Can I just have Dev build me a read, Yellow Green version of thisand sales forst and you know what, it's working. We went through routeof build first. It's not our core competency to like build the gain site, but in this case it worked very well for us, which has beena huge win. Our teams have about four hundred to five hundred accounts eachwow, and so they need to prioritizes pretty quickly who they need to focuson it and that's us. Some allows them to do that. That isexciting. Yeah, it work and yeah, and to your point, that thethe CS platform for not. We're not going to call anybody out specifically, but you know, they when they pitch you, they're telling you.I was on a call once and they said, well, you need tohire a CS engineer. Maybe I don't need to buy you right now.That's an exactly where we came from. We said, okay, like youknow, in those technologies are are fantastic for some orgs and for hours wejust felt like we're lean. And that load is also massive, you know, managing the technology to manage the accounts is a lot. So it isour own route. So when I got to know you, you are ayou are a lowly vp of marketing, but give us your origin story andwe know you went to Michigan, where you're from. Originally and and youknow I read over some of your amazing experience at sale through and a bunchof other places. But give us the snapshot of how you got here todayfor the future marketers and sales people that want to be a CMO one day. Sure are. Actually I was just at the University of Michigan. Theyflew me out two weeks ago to give the same story because of the marketof graduating marketers want to know like how to navigate this. So I feltvery proud of going back to my Alma Mater to talk about that sort ofnavigation. But it actually started. You know, I went to University ofMichigan because I was lucky enough to get a scholarship to go play soccer there. It doesn't know that. That's awesome. Yeah, I was on the Universityof Michigan soccer team for four years and I, you know, hada deep passion for soccer. Obviously my my entire life. And so whenI was graduating I was like, you know, what do I do?Should I you know, like what's going to be the job? And youknow I was graduate with communications degree. I said like, well, maybesports marketing and aligns like the communications and an aligns the sport and I gotmy first job with a company called Octagon, which I still near and dear tomy heart. Was My first job that I was at for about sixyears and while I was there I had to fantastic accounts, both BMW andMaster Card. BMW for the majority of the time, about four years,Master Card for about too and as a marketer, first it was different intwo ways when it was be Toc marketing and second it was very large corporateaccounts, and those brands are were fantastic for me to sort of like getmy bearing and marketing because they were the sort of epitomize, at least onthe BMW side, like what it means to have like brand integrity and reallyhow to take the dollars you spend and make sure that you have like massiveexposure. So, anyway, I learned very quickly about branding at a veryhigh level and I did the same when I was at Master Card. Wedid the two thousand and six World Cup, so that was like a massive undertaking. It was a hundred of ure. Your soccer background, that must havebeen that. It was amazing. It was amazing and and you know, I for part of that. I...

...my boss and mentor me, ora SISAMIKO. She was responsible for mastercards spokespeople, which was Pale. SoI for two years worked with my idol, sort of globe trotting with him forthe World Cup appearances, and you know, I could remember, youknow, saying up late night with him watching the World Cup games and wewere kicking the soccer ball in the hallway of like a four seasons and likeMexic, you know, just like that is an incredible memory. That's anything side out. It was sort of surreal and such a wonderful time inmy life. But, you know, like zooming out from there. Isaid, like this was great, but I really enjoyed about the marketing.was like how creative. You know, I love everything about marketing and thatwas a fantastic experience on the BTB, on the BTC side, excuse me, but I said, you know, the consumer brands, like it's greatto like work in big corporate consumer brands. I said, but, like,you know, I'm really I really enjoy like Tach, you know,I did's booming. I really want to get into this, but I wentback to business school so that I could to learn the fundamentals. You know, it s level at my business acumen and make sure that I could atleast have a seat at the table if I were to take a job andstart up in tach and so after that I took my first job at timelink, which is like the most boring technology in the world. Time and attendanceis like you talk about technology that's like that really that fun to market that. But the CEO had modest expectations. He said like four million, wewant to go to like eight and I said, well, I'll take achance on me. I've a BC marketing background, but you know, Iwill dig in and I will make sure that I can help grow this businessand we did that. In three years. You've got sold to Chronos. Andthen I went to Lua. I actually had a sort of a missstep at LOA. It was a series a company and for someone like mewho was a little hard to sort of work within the budget constraints the seriesa. What is the would do, or did they do? So it'sa workforce communication technology. Right now they specialize in healthcare. So at thetime they were servicing many industries. I think that they've they've put it andbeen specific to healthcare. But in any case, I one of my colleaguesthat I had left timeline with was at sale through and she said like well, they're looking for marketers. So then I went to sale throught and Iwas sort of had of growth. The day I was hired, the CMOwas let go and so I sort of walked into this de facto like headof marketing role there. I had fantastic colleagues on the sale through side andI was there a little under two years before sign post, before open viewhad reached out to me, which is one of the sign post investors,and I've been here about three years. I love the story and by theway, don't worry about Miss Steps. I've made more than my fair sters. It's easy to do, you know. You'd think, based on all theyou know, the conversations you have before you take a you know anotherrole, you think you'd have vetted everything, but you know there's dynamics and anybusiness that makes it just something that may not be a match. Soyeah, and the other part of it is that a really the more senioryou are, the more you really division your vision alignment with the founder passedin sync, because it just can't work if you see the world differently thanthe founder and you're part of the executive team at just the immediately get outof alignment. Absolutely, and you know that. One other point I'd makeon the founder piece of it. You know the my current CEO Today,ace to. He's a first time. Yes to all, he's fantastic.He's one of the smartest people I've I've ever met and I've learned in thethree years. The amount I've learned has been absolutely incredible. I have himto thank for that. But he has a first time founder to there isa difference, I think, in, you know, working with first timefounders and working with somebody that's more seasoned. I think that those, you know, more seasoned CEOS who've done this like multiple times just have different perspectivesand I haven't yet worked with a founder that isn't first time. So Ithink hopefully, and you know, the next set of roles I take inmy career, I'd be interested to see perhaps what that was like. That'sreally interesting. I guess a lot of us has been a lot of timewith first time founders. I think the thing that comes I don't know ifyou agree or disagree. But it's funny because the more senior folks are muchlooser in some ways, in the sense that they're much more comfortable delegating becausethey have they know what they know and they know what they don't know andaren't good at and don't have any anxiety...

...about that. They don't feel anypressure to be great at everything. They understand. Yeah, this is thething, I'm good, I'm going to hire great people and let them dothere. Absolutely, absolutely. I you know, having not worked with someonewho isn't a first time founder, I can imagine, though, that fora founder, a first time founder, that those things are really hard todo, like relinquish control, because you know it's your baby, and yetyou know you've been you burning a lot of those exactly. And the lastpoint is probably that you know, if you're super young. Stew actually hasa lot of experience at this point, but other first timers that I've workedwith their little self conscious, you know, because maybe they're wondering, should Ibe in this role in the first place, and so they sometimes feelthe need to to overcompensate. Absolutely, I mean it's natural like it.I don't think it's a no fault of their own. I just think thatthat's really this thing that they suffer from sometimes, like they can't get otherown way. But you know, in any case, I he is fantasticand you know he's been wonderful sort of mentorors. Yeah, and you guyshave get built that business to a place that you know, from my perspective, once your past twenty million, that's I guess Jason Limpkin or Aaron Rossor somebody says that anything past a million is inevitable to get to a hundred, which is absolutely insanity. But my perspective is that really the period northof ten, from ten to twenty, is the hardest part of Skate Art. I've seen ten to twenty twice sailed through and and sign post. Butthere is part of me, you know, beyond sign post. What does twothousand and forty look like as a marketer? And you know, likedo the tactics change? What do the investments look like? Those are arevery interesting sort of concepts. For me it's I move forward. Yeah,you know, I think I know how talented you are. I don't thinkit's my experience in life is that this the product market fit is going topull you along and you're not going to get less intelligent as you go fromtwo thousand and two forty. I hope not, but yeah, that's sortof my thought about that too, that, you know, you don't lose yourability to think about how to make investments in marketing efforts that are workingright. You know, you just keep dumping the money into the channel that'smaking you the more, the most money, and having an eye for that isis really something that doesn't change. But I agree some there's investors outthere that are always going to you know, because it's specially prominent in my role, where they're saying, well, we need you know, you're thezero to thirty cro three thousand two hundred from Oracle or sales force, andlike, I'm not sure those people are going to have the intensity that's necessarysometimes to keep pushing this business for but I totally agree it. Totally agree. So, moving away from a somewhat controversial topic to a less controversial topic, you know a lot of people have a different point of view. Wantwhat the word marketing means and a lot of people don't know what it means. And twenty years ago, I think there was even less information or educationin the market and people basically assumed it's branding. You know, it's youmake the brochures and your charge of the website and you do the you know, the laborious logo redesign. What do you think marketing means? Yeah,it's a great question, and I think marketing is synonymous with revenue. Iview marketing as a service ORG to revenue. The revenue team, which would beyours mother Cros, like my, job is to make sure that,you were, teams are up for success in terms of like how do youfind the accounts you should be working and then how do you go sell intothose and most efficient manner? There are many disciplines to marketing, which iswhy sometimes people like confleet what the job is or really have this like nebulousunderstanding of like marketing. But from my perspective there's probably about seven disciplines inmarketing. But brand is something that always evolves and iterates as you grow,I mean unless your product is you know, even BMW right. They have themost, in my opinion, like fantastic brand guidelines on the planet andthey're very strict about those that. And so there's some things that you knowyou drive a stake in the ground with. BMW hasn't gone through a rebrand inmany, many years. But if you're a company like sign post oryou're you know, you're in a startup, the product is likely going to changemore frequently than BMW is, and so, from my experience right likeyou have to keep brand is like this...

...iterative, living, breathing thing,and brand just very simply as like what you say you are, like,how do you speak? Like what is the message and the tone and ethosof the brand, and then the design, which is like how you look.So those two components make up the brand and you constantly work on those. We went through a rebrand at sign post mainly because I wanted to codifysome of those things that are import for our business, and we had many, many, many different iterations of the sign post brand here are like differentcolor Palettes, like things were really all over the place. So I said, like, let's pull this together, because I do think that those areimportant and foundational. I do not consider myself a brand marketer, though.I don't I can't come to you with some Elo quint copy that's, youknow, going to like blow your mind and forwards I work with an agencyon that and I was very happy with the agency that I picked for therebrand. But brand is something that lives on always. Beyond that there arejust like core disciplines, which is, I. Content Marketing, digital marketing, product marketing, customer marketing. You know, there's many disciplines underneath that, and so it just, I think, long in the short of this isthat, as a marketer, that the job is really to just ruthlesslyprioritize, like where you spend time, to drive the most revenue and putpeople, good people around you that are better than you and any one ofthose areas. And I had the benefit of like working really hard as amarketer, getting my hands really dirty for many, many years. So Iknow how to do all of these. I just now I'm able and affordedthe like luxury of getting good people to do them better than I could.So, yeah, one quick question for my own edification. You went througha rebrand out of what is that? I know what it means, butyeah, but what does it mean? So you know, how long wasit? How time intensive? I guess the output was a bunch of differentthings. Yep, and how involved was the agency? I'm just curious onthe overall process because I think a lot of founders out there frankly have apoint of there. We're all wondering, like how do you caught a fineart totally ran through deliverables and through output totally. So I am very leftbrain marketer. I think my strength, like I said, is is demandJin and so the brand piece for me is actually a little bit harder.I I need help there and that for me. So that men an agency. So I went through a very, very rigorous agency process where I wrotein RFP and I just basically said like, okay, what are the things thatare important to us? We need a codify or message. We needsomebody to help us really communicate what it is we do and not in away that just says like we're marketing automation. That was a goal. It wasthe ethos of the project was to say like speak to people, andso that was part of the RP. Is the message and also the design. Now, for us we had a product UX that we needed to Redoany way because the actual products didn't communicate all the value that MEA drives,which is our AI. So I said like look, if we're really goingto do this right, I can't be in some marketing Stylo and just developinga new logo, a color Palette and dimension to the brand without a productthat we feel good about. So ours was two part. We had theagency work on product Dashboard, which delivered, which is on our site today.That helped feed the tone and the style of the actual brand to andthe process was about ten weeks. I was like Ruth once we selected theagency, was ruthless about taking them through a ten week process. They wantthat done too. So we were like very strict about our timelines. Wehad weekly check ins with the CEO, but I had daily check ins withthem on the process and the deliverable from that. I was very clear aboutI wanted new messaging, which I wanted delivered in a deck which could becommunicated in mission vision values, and then I wanted them to take that andI wanted them to give me four pages of our website, which included copywriting. So they did all that. They delivered a dashboard, they deliver brandonstyle guide with like all the stuff that you see on signpost today, whichis sort of like these thin lines, a new logo and the site forten weeks and for a hundred thousand dollars. That was a heavier investment than wewanted to make. But if you think about how he broke out theproject, Fiftyzero was spent on product UX and design, which is actually prettyinexpensive, and Fiftyzero was spent on the...

...marketing rebrand, which is by itselfpretty inexpensive. To go through everything we did did. They gave you styleguide and sort of brand guidelines to product team maybe a third of the waythrough, so that you know exact legs could evolve in conjunction with, youknow, their splash page, resign, stuff like that, exactly. Andthe CEO and the head of product and I we met. That was likea three legged stool because one it's the vision of the CEO, which isimportant from my perspective. Right I have opinions, but this is his babyand so my job is I really felt like the facilitator, and that's whyI'm okay with not being the one who needs to copyright a website or whohas all these like magical thoughts about what I think the brand should look like, as, frankly, it's not up to me, it's him. Sothat's what I did and he was very, very satisfying things. Very happy weare. Actually, you know, we're going through another messaging project today, because it changes a lot. You know, his vision for where wereevery day. Not Every day, but like you know, once a quartare you kind of like revisit what the product is doing and say like,okay, are we still matched up to the message? And actually that's changinga little bit. So that's sorry, very long winded it. No,it's important because Ei there's so much. You know, in podcast land andthought leader land you get a lot of high level bullshit sometimes, but nowwe mean that's an important it's the way it's I have a playbook on ittoo, that I would share. I mean, you know, my jobis like bring that playbook with me where I go. I would be anybodyneeding that, I'd be happy to share, like even the agency lists in NewYork and things like that. I think I'm a very good like folderof stuff. So you're awesome. Thank you. There's a part of marketingthat everybody talks about. Everybody wants. Demand Generation. The funny, Hilarious, depressing thing I've seen people nobody knows what it means. They all say, okay, I wanted to man generation manager. They hire that person andthen they give them about two weeks and then they say what was the money? It takes a little longer than that. Tell us about your thoughts on TomaGeneration, because I've learned a lot of my perspective from you. Wouldbe great for you to share your perspective. Sure, it's funny that you putall those adjectives together, which is like hilarious and and like qualifying,and it is like actually all of those things. I mean simply demand Jinit is just how do you generate interest in the product? From my perspective, there's two ways to do that. You can push your information to somebody. That's more of that. I don't want to call it brand awareness,but that's how you like sort of disruptive buying cycles by pushing or information.That's why email is a channel that it's most often used, because you're tryingto just get your information out there. But that's push right, like theydidn't come to you, they weren't making a search for it, they justsaid, like we said, we think we've identified you as a need forthis. The method I like better, which actually works very well, onthe SNB side is the pull hub. Spot made a big deal about inbounda long time ago, so it's not a new concept. But frankly,like the buying motion, is a much more highly converting channel when they've cometo you, when you've send something out there in the world and then theyraise their hand and said like Oh yeah, this is something I'm interested in readingabout. That's a more highly qualified lead. Obviously, then like acold call or a linkedin connection those demand Gen efforts. So today, asan example, this may be less relevant to those selling into enterprise, butI'll I'll speak to our ad words. For SMB. Right now we havea whole demand Gen team which is a hundred people cold calling on the phone. They are disrupting buying cycles in their calls. And it's super interesting thatyou called the SDRs a demand Gen team because your point, you view activitiesof getting people interested in the product to be a marketing function. I dodefinitely. I mean I think about it that way. I few sales islike the person who's able to take the interests then and go cultivate a relationshipand get the deal done. That's a skill set I rely on you forI phone. I think I'd be the worst sales person on the planet,but I happy to give you guys, you know, way ups or conversations. But yeah, I all that's demand, Jen. And then on the inbounddemand, Jen I, I love like when you can get people comingto you raising your their hand because they're interested. Those are going to convertmuch more highly than anybody you've bludgeoned over...

...the head with as gold calls andemails. You know, like you can have the most magical drip campaign onthe planet, but like you know, somebody's not ready to buy and theydon't see that, you know, they can't immediately see the value. They'redeleting your emails. But that's why content marketing service such a like important discipline, because it's the very highest part of the demand Jen are like, iswhat did you put out there in the world that pulled somebody into your funneland the middle of the funnel, then that's when the product marketer comes in, because, okay, that I now generally interested in what your product like. The problem which the content marketers yourself were and then the product marketing shouldsay like, okay, this is actually the solution that fixes it, andthen the customer marketing pieces, like, okay, these are all the customersthat are using it that are like kicking butt that these people in the funnelshould now know about. So I sort of see that as like a howthat group of tasks plays into the demand jet. So yeah, and you'rementioning ad words. What were you gonna About? Tell us about different productivechannels? Yes, you get leads, because that's what everybody wants, Iknow right. So adwords works incredibly well for us on the STB side.Less so when I was at sale through, when we were I mean if you'rea good cmo, you have a general idea of the technologies that wereout there in the world. So I'll just give you an example. Likeawards did work at sale through and frank I can't speak to what it it'sdoing now. It did drive pipeline. It's rare, though, that aCMO of like j crow is googling like which email service provider should I use? I mean, fuck, you know, excuse me, but if you're thehead, if you're the head of marketing at Ja Crow and you're googlingwhat email service provider should I use? I mean again, maybe it's peopledoing research and just trying to see what's out there, but that's far lesslikely. You're hopefully more up to speed on that because you've a team ofpeople invested in like responses or sale through or whatever. So we found that, you know, that work just you know, different kinds of pipeline wasactually being generated from that those efforts. On the SMB side, there arelocal business owners that actually have no idea how to market or email marketer.Are they have like pain point. They act like, I don't want tosay they're all not technologically sophisticated, but the goal of them owning a businesswasn't like what technology is can I use to get this job done better?It's like I have a customer base I need to make happy. My cousinowns Tier Care Landscaping Company. He's worried about like plowing. He's not likedo I need the crm? But in his pain points when he does havea problem, he says like how do I email market? He searches forthings that are like problems for him, if that makes sense, and that'swhen that channel for us on the local business side becomes very important very powerful, because we show up we feel a very specific need for that specific searchand we get them right to a sale team in the sales seam closes them. So, top to bottom, that conversion channel for us is five percent. Wow, that's very good. Yeah, it's good in terms of conversary andthe LTV to Kack on that is about to now some people would say, like, think about the market, you know, we closed a lotof those. Every dollar we put in we get two bucks out and weclose lots of them. The topline revenue grows and we still met better thanwe whatever without it. But the enterprise side, though, right, likeif you're not at like three to five, forget it. When you say fivepercent, is it from the form fill, after the AD Click?Yes, so from lead to close. Yeah, so after the form field. So good. That's still very good. Yeah, and and, like Isaid, the metric we care about is LTV to cack. So Ilook at actually the funnel conversion rate to think the matters for the business isLTV to cack. You know, obviously the same would go. You know, it's true for any business. So if you move all up to enterprise, the LTV TO CAC matters. Now the LTV on enterprise deals is sohigh that you can afford to bring your marketing hack up. That's why youcould do an event for like Fifteenzero dollars, which I love, for the enterpriseright hand to hand combat. Those people are there because they like needor they're doing their research. At least you know it means. We hada trade show, like they flew all the way to wherever to get tothe exhibit hall where they know they're going to get pummeled and email till theend of time. But if you have the meaningful conversation with them they're thelikelihood of that close is also going to be very high and you'll pay thatoff more than five acts. And might...

I agree you like trade shows,Sam I means you go, when you go. Are you like this ismeaningful? It is the age old question, and the reason is theed old questionis because a lot of the times, if you're going to sponsor a show, the booth cost is going to compare to hiring two SDRs, probablyat least for the first year. So from that perspective I don't Love Them. I like them when we can speak at them, you know, whenlike the CEO can be on a panel or we can be invested more thanjust writing a huge check to the organizer. And then there's certain shows that Ifeel sort of obligated to be at. And then the final thought is Ilike hijacking them. You know, which is the more bending off thingof I'll just do a dinner around the trade show, I'm not going togo to the show. But to your point, it's a bunch of peoplethat have expressly raised their hand and said this is a category where I havepain and interest, so let me find a way to to entice them withsome kind of event or some kind of gathering. Yeah, I agree withyou. I mean when you can hijack them, you should, but youknow, I'd sail through. We had a consistent presence with etail because wesold specifically to eat commers retail, which is like literally their whole base.So we spent to make sure that we were frond of that group more frequentlyso they felt like we are trusted partner, because we were competing against some ofthe like legacy tax, like, you know, responses, and wehad to win the business and that, you know, we felt like themore we could get in front of them, that that consistent presence that we wouldmake them feel like. Okay, the when I was a live stream, we would spend it's to your point, you know, you just got tohave a solid point of view and your unit economics. Yeah, thatwill inform how comfortable you feel, because you know, when we were atlive stream we would spend, I mean close to seven figures to go tothe show any being in a National Association of broadcasters. And the problem withthat was this. The deal sizes were so tiny, you know, andit was such a big show. We'd scan five thou leads. I don'thave a good framework for figuring out what to do with those leads in theright way. The other thing I'll say, a last thing about trade shows isI often feel like it's a snake getting a pig. It's very hardto digest a batch of like a thousand leads that you scamp the show allat once. There's no natural way. I'd much rather for, for frankly, a thousand leads over the course of six weeks where I've got like aworkflow and emotion set up to handle each lead in the proper way. Otherwiseit's just very a lot falls through the cracks. Yeah, you get likecompletely saturated with the leads and it's hard to know like qualify them on basedon that. Events is one one channel. Digital is getting very good now atsort of rounding out your like Omni Channel experience because you get very preciseand targeting. Either accounts are contacts, because with facebook and Linkedin in particular, you can do an exact email match, and either one of those systems whereyou're like, okay, I have this person's email. In some cases, and I would say forty percent of the time that's been my experience,you can do an exact email match because some people don't use their work email. I mean some people don't use their work email for facebook. A lotdon't. Yeah, and the same is true with Linkedin. So it's veryunlikely you have their personal email. But you can get very creative with howyou try to find these people in both digital channels and in that case youare pushing your information in front of them. But they do come in as inboundonce they raise their hand, which I like that that's automatically like selfselecting, and those are better ways for me to get leads to the salesorg. So they're not sifting through, like you said, like the crazyamounts of unqualified. So that's on the digital side. There's another channel thatI really love, which we haven't invested too much in here because we werenot we haven't gone up market, but that's affiliate. I'm not sure whatyour perspective is on this, though. Say'm like, I give you anexample. A E marketer right lots to see him. Like if you wantto reach a CMO, you can probably assume the CMOS have our on somedistribution list for e marketer and also for cmocom. Those are like affiliates.You just pay to get access to these people and then again, like youdo an email blast with them and then, once the blast goes out, youcollect all the then mountains. We...

...did a forster Webinar. So forSir, we paid for ster for Webinar. It was a significant investment rated byyou know, are you in like one of their quadrons before you getthe Web? Now, okay, which is why I did it. Thisis my recommendation to anybody an enterprise who thinks that they need analyst relations isto get your name on the map. It's sort of paid a play,but you do get your name on the map. You get the forester briefings. They listen to your CEO talk about what the technology is, and thenthe CEO and the forester analyst and we actually had a customer all do ajoint Webinarre together. It was really powerful. And then we took that Webinar andI gave it to business insider and I said like, go blast thisout. You know, we got four hundred and fifty people to give ustheir information, to access the information. So that means it's exactly the personwe want. It may not be the accounts we want, but the functionis there. And separately, they came in his hand Rais or so likethey're at least warmer, so maybe they have can actions or whatever. Sothere are many creative ways to generate demand, but there is no exact science.At first, you know, it's art and thinking about where you wantto go, spend a little bit of money to test and then, likeI said once, you now you just double down. Yeah, absolutely,and you've often said to me the you're headed Demangaon as a hedge fun portfoliomanager, figuring out what stocks to buy. It totally. I mean I that'slike the best analogy I could draw because you know that. That's whatyou do. Like you know the business is going to give you cash andthe job is to go figure out how to get more cash from that cash. So it's before we almost we're nearing the end of our time together.But I want to close out. What's your number one sort of recommendation whenCEOS or companies are thinking about demand generation or initiating that function? Do youhave one or two insights to help a first time founder that's thinking about hiringa marketer how to frame or think about demand generation investment? I would sayyou know not to go to senior on the higher. I mean that maybe intuitive, but generally, if you can get a doer to help thinkabout the CEO is likely the person who may have the best intuition about whereto find the people he's selling to or wants to sell the product to.You can test small amounts of money with like a good smart doer first tojust get like a general. I mean it depends on how small right.I mean we tested small amounts of money when I came here to find theanswers to that and then we'd park the money. It doesn't need to besome crazy like massive heavy lift and all these analyzes. And if you're willingto spend tenzero dollars to test across four or five channels, that should probablydo it. But you know, you have to commit some money and justsome time. So there's no magic bullet, I think. On the demand Jon, but I think people get very scared about it and then they thinkthat they have to go on some search on Linkedin for like the best demandGen person in the city, and that may not be the case. Yeah, and also, by the way, those people are you are a rarebreed. There's not many great demension people, so you get to have to rollup your your sleeves, your hands dirty. Yes, exactly. Alwaysthe pay it forward part of our conversation. So one thing we like to knowis what's in your text act? You know one or two tools thatyou think other people should know about, and what do they do for you? This is going to be awful, but Marquetto is our sort of clutch. You know, marketing, animation probably obvious. I love Gecko Board.I have many different sources feeding meat. Data. Word, God, it'samazing. It's like a hundred bucks and on. Basically it's a Bi tool. I mean again, it doesn't actually do any of the marketing for you, but it gives me good insights for where I should be turning levers.It's a Bi that just integrates all your different technology. So like add wordsis is feeding into Gecko board, Marquetto is feeding into Getto word, saleshorse feed into getto words. So the text I do have, and Ihave a very lean tech SAC marquetto being like the most important one, butthe other information I do have comes feeding into GECO board and it just onestop shop. I get the APP on my phone, I can have theDASH board and it gives me all the information. Awesome. Okay, Great, I'm moving out of order from our script here. But Advice for specificallywomen? You know, we're in a diversity moment. So, as asuccessful, powerful technology executive that is also...

...a woman, any advice or thoughtsabout how they should manage their careers to get to where you are? Yeah, I think this is an incredibly important topic. Obviously, with two recentdevelopments across every industry it's becoming even more cute. I would say, though, that I've tried to operate from a place of results for my career.I've worked hard, I've put my head down. I sadly may have beenoblivious to anybody who is treating me differently because I'm female, but I knowit exists and I think the advice for me in this situation is to justlet your results speak for themselves and like really let it guide you forward.So when you're given a task or when you're in a room, you needto make sure that you are standing behind the work you're doing with like reallygood data. So that's been sort of the thing, I think that haskept me moving forward, that it hasn't been about gender, even though Ido know it's a problem for some or for many, that my guiding lighthas been just kick some ass and then hopefully that those things can kind offall out of your way. Yeah, what's good advice? Thank your favoriteother exact fee piece of sales or CMOS or VP's of marketing that we allshould know about. Sure. So you know you mentioned earlier, but DaveGovin was a fantastic partner at sale through John Piddell. Really smart had tosales Brad come. He was our sep of bed here. You, ofcourse, Sam. I know we frequently go back and forth because you're mypartner on the other side, so you're the guy that generating all the revenue. I need to know like where your pain points are. As an example, the arrows are very important for me. And then the two marketers, NickChrisman, he's, namely, yes, Super, Super Smart, Nice Guy, and Kyle Lacy. He and I work together when he was Vmarketing at open view. He's a VP of marketing now at lessonly we frequently. Both of these guys have shared just our best practices and you know,they're doing every day like those are the people that are helpful to me,just as practitioners like okay, definitely don't do this or do this. Thoseare good conversation. And to your point about hiring an upandcomer, nick,I think when he joined, namely, I don't think he had a lotof marketing experience. Now, well, he's made himself an amazing marketer.Is He's smart and he's like a doer. He he's a go getter and nowhe's just crushing it and I'm you know, I'm happy to know himand he's a good guy. Cool. Any other sort of investors or peoplethat are inspirational for you that you think we should know about before sign post. I think you know the and I hadn't had a lot of investor relationsbefore coming to sign post, but and I know to mention someone on myI my current board, is the ones on my current board are fantastic.People like Tyson Barber, Justin Lafayatte, Todd Dagress, Adam Marcus like thoseare from the spark, Jordan and and open view. They have all beenfantastic. You know, when you present to the board you want to knowtheir thoughts. These are really smart guys, not like why isn't this going theright way, but like okay, but what is your perspective on howwe might make a change? Of all the beantastic in like helping to guidethat conversation, which I found very, very helpful. So they're in thetop of my list. Awesome. Last question for you. First of all, you're an mdthree fan. Is that right? Yeah, just taste inmusic. I don't think it's that weird. I just didn't I don't is itroad blaster an album or a song? It's a song that you know they'relike. Do all these like s song remakes find. Okay, that'slike the most s I found, so I'm going to listen to it thisafternoon and then your favorite book, movie or podcast. My favorite book isDarwin's doubt. I love reading the different views between sort of like religion andatheism, and like the how the sciences converge. So that's my latest one. It's very difficult to get through. It's what are you dance? It'sabout intelligent design, you know, like the concept that how could we haveevolved, even though that that's my point of view. How could we haveevolved? The way we were designed is too intelligent for evolution. And butI like the competing views because obviously I'm...

I but have one very strong pointof view. This is sort of another Pov and yeah, very interesting.It's Danse, but it's very interesting. Blind watchmaker is another one. That'sanother one that's intense. I think the people that don't believe in evolution willhave even more trouble when they do more reading and come up with the theory, realize the theories of that life came from Mars. was like there wasMitochondria and like single cell organisms on these asteroids that hit the earth and anyway, no way. Oh, I'll look that up. What's your by theway, I'm interested. Huh, I'll tell you what I'm reading now.My favorite book overall as tender as the night, but that's because I'm adepressive person and like tragedy from a marketing perspective. I just read play bigger. Do you know that book? No, now, I'll put on my list. It's all about category design, which is very similar to what youknow, what you're talking about and now and then the other book that Iread recently is a bend in the river, which is about Africa and the sby fs and I Paul. But okay, that's because I'm not alwaysreading business books, which I encourage other people to exactly. If people wantto get in touch with you, do you have a preferred channel? Areyou open to people reaching out to you? Yes, definitely linkedin or you cansend me an email and here at sign posts a Kale. That's signpostcom. Awesome, Andrea, thank you so much for joining the Sales Haackerpodcast and you've been always insightful. Congratulations, and I success a sign post andthat and we're going to talk to you soon. Thank you, Andrew. All Right, Sam. Thanks what a great interview with Andrea. Thisis SAM's corner. A couple thoughts from Andrew's interviews. She shared so muchinsight. First of all, she very specifically gave us a framework for arebrand, and so if you're a company thinking about going through that process,there are specific details. Ten Week process. The outputs were four pages for thewebsite where the the agency wrote the copy. It was a partnership withproduct so that the product exemplified and represented the brand. The agency got ahundred thousand dollars. Andre has got references for us if we need them.So that's a very specific thing because I'm always thinking about brand and how tomanage it and what the investment is worth relative to agency partners that we mightuse a different organizations that I'm working for. And then the second thing that youmentioned, which she's very focused on, is LTBTKAC. Obviously, when you'rethinking about demand generation, you need to be thinking about the lifetime dietthe customer and how much it cost to acquire them. I will add,however, that LTV can be a very misleading metric if your capital constrained because, especially at very low numbers, if you're not seeing that money come back. It may be that there's a reasonable lifetime value, reasonable but if you'respending a tremendous amount of money to acquire the customer because you're under pressure togrow and it's going to take you a long time to get the money back, that's going to impose very significant capital constraints in the business. You've gotto think about your balance sheet. So that's why those ratios are so important, because if you're at anything below really three to one, if you're attwo to one or one and a half to one, you're getting paid back, that's true, but you're getting paid back over the life of a customer, which maybe years, and so you got to really think about making sureyou have the cap at all relative to the ltb to caack ratios, thatyou can scale. This has been Sam's corner. Thanks so much for listening. To check out the show notes, see upcoming guests and play more episodesfrom our incredible line up of sales leaders, visit sales hackercom podcast. You canalso find the sales hacking podcast on itunes or Google play or anywhere thatyou consume your podcasts. If you enjoyed this episode. Please share with yourpeers on Linkedin, twitter or elsewhere. Special thanks again to this month's sponsorsat Gong. See More Gong dot IO. Forward sales hacker. And finally,if you want to get in touch with me, you can find meon twitter at Sam f Jacobs or on Linkedin at linkedincom and slash Sam fJacobs. SEE YOU NEXT TIME.

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