The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 4 years ago

7. How to Align Marketing and Sales With Demand Gen w/ Andrea Kayal

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

On this episode of the Sales Hacker podcast, we talk with Andrea Kayal, Chief Marketing Officer at Upserve and most recently Chief Marketing Officer at Signpost.

One, two, one, three, three. Before we get started, we want to thank this month sponsor introducing Gong Dot Io, the number one conversation intelligence platform for sales. Gong helps you generate more revenue by having better sales conversations. It automatically captures and analyzes your team's conversations so you can transform your team into quota shattering supersellars. Visit Gong Dot io forward slash sales packer to get in on the action and see it list. And now on with the show. Hey everybody, I'm here with Andrea Kle, the chief marketing officer of Sign Post. Were so excited to have her on the sales packer podcast. I want to tell you a little bit about Andrea. She's, in my opinion, the best marketer in New York City, at a minimum, and she's one of the people that I rely on for a lot of guidance around marketing in general, but demand generation specifically. But let me read your bio. As the chief marketing officer, Andrea is responsible for marketing, customer success and business operations at signpost. Her focus areas are demand generation, brand messaging, creative marketing, automation, marketing, communications, PR marketing, sales alignment and customer retention. Before joining signpost, Andrea led marketing teams at time link Lua and sale through and before transitioning into tech, she worked at Octagon, where she managed global marketing initiatives for BMW and Master Card. She went to the unit versity of Michigan go blue and received her MBA from American University. Welcome and DRIA. Thanks, Sam and thanks for the kind words. And YASCO blue. We're happy to have you. I'm happy to have you. So to frame your experience for everybody, because they don't know you as well as I do, let's talk about what we call your baseball card. So we know your name, Andrew Kale Cemo at sign post. Tell us a little bit about sign post. Who are they? What do they do? Sure, so sign post is an AI driven crm which basically drives reviews and revenue for local service businesses. So it is more S ANDB and mid market focused. Previously I was focused on on enterprise, but that's sort of a high level of sign post. Okay, and Revenue Range for the company. So we know how big it is. Generally speaking, sign post is twenty to twenty five million, but when I've joined this company and my previous company sailed through. We were around the nine to ten million dollar range. So in both cases I've seen sort of we've doubled the there exactly. Doubling is good. We like to double and your experience is Saale through is awesome. So, and you know, we know a lot of the same people like Dave goven from from yeah, how much money has have you guys raised? So we're in CE. We raised about twenty million dollars. Okay. And then this size of the org so we understand the context. Like how big is the organization that you're running, both the marketing organ if you have insights on the sales team in the STR's, I would be great. Sure. So sign post is about a hundred and fifty person organize. Station got a hundred of those. A little bit less are in sales roles. So we have a very, very heavy sales focus business and I oversee three departments or three functions. So first marketing and revops. Those are the two that I see that generate the demand and then alternately, on the other side of the business, I oversee about a forty person customers success organization. So now I'm responsible for working with the sales seem to generate the revenue, but I have to worry about the cash leaving the business as well. How do you feel about that? Do you do it? Is that the right alignment? Honestly, it's a fantastic it's going to be from fantastic, you know, perspective, because you know usually marketing is responsible for driving leads to sales leaders or sales accepted leads or, you know, whatever the terminology the business is using, and you're really worried about the quality of that business. But frankly, that the most important thing is not only the quality for the sales seem to close the deal, but it's is the fit of the business a match, because you have to rotain they cash on any other end. Right like in anybody looking at the business in terms of like the value that they're going to give you when they either acquire you or or whatever your ipowing,...

...they want to make sure that the customers actually use the product. In our are staying on for a long time. So it's been massively beneficial to me as just a marketer to know both you know, what's good for revenue driving, but then, like which businesses are good for retaining. Yeah, I've seen customer success report to sales all the time. In fact I've run those organizations. But I don't know that I've seen customer success report to markets marketing when we were doing sort of the design for our business or design for the business. You know, and I was talking in the CEO about this, that the head of sales today has massive you know, his responsibility for revenue is is sort of like has a lot of breath and we have nearly seven sales channels and the reason it reports to marketing today. Want is, you know, sort of a capacity issue. But to we're working on actually making the customer success or more of a revenue generation. You know, today it's more like a revenue retention. Not all. When we change that it we may move the ORG under a different leader, but today it's been just one day to point here on customer success. Interestingly enough, when I took over the org it was much larger than it is today. But the good news is we've taken the org in terms of like cost had count, like the cost of revenue, down twenty percent year over year and we've increased our attention improve it twenty percent year over year. So the good news is we're making some really great progress on the CS side, but it's like, for at least for this group, it's helpful perspective and in terms of the we drive. Yeah, so it's been good news. That's am it will typically what we do is get your life story, but I might stay here for a second because that's kind of amazing and also just as a testament to your capabilities. A lot of people ask me where should XYZ function? report. There's a ways that you can design the organization, but a lot of the Times it's just the capabilities and talent of leadership, and so if you've got a leader like you, you get more responsibility and if thanks SAM, so, it's so kind of you to say that. The funny thing is, though, it's you know, that's a double edged sword. I mean, you know now I have departments. The good news is, yes, that I feel thankful that the CEO like empowered me to basically take a project and get good people around it and like solve a problem. I think that that's really key. You need to know that your your leader can do that. But also, as we scale, I think that that's been the most exciting part of this job for me has just been being able to like tackle the challenges to it's been really fun. It keeps it interesting. So, you know, we don't want to be too mercenary about this, but you lowered cost twenty percent and you increase retention twenty percent. What did you do differently or any key tactics or insights that you learned over the last I guess it's your running customer success that we can share with the audience. Yeah, when I inherited the Org, I would say, and this is basically this is an answer to one of the questions that I reviewed below, which is like, what is the biggest driver between success and failure in your most recent role? I can answer that very specifically, at least as it relates to see us. That's removing complexity. We had a lot of people doing sort of very complicated cs management and like a lot of complicated systems feeding into how they did their day to day job. So what I did was I just looked holistically at like all the roles that I broke down basically the time they're spending on in the role and we cansolidated task. So I think the long and the short as is when we sign up as assign post merchant. They were going between different CS teams. I basically combined all those teams and gave that one account manager the responsibility of all of those. But that allowed us to scale. So we you were constrained artificially by like sort of these like small teams. We now gave everybody the account from start to finish, which allowed them to grow their books way beyond, you know, sort of the artificial constraints that were in there. And I think it was just a matter of, like I said, removing the complexity, like with all that complicated process in there. It really it was a very high tax and encumbered us from sort of scale. So that's Ay. You know the long and the short of it. Yeah, so the counter argument would be will specialization of labor is itself a form of simplicity? And if the account manager, are you saying that? Basically, maybe you had an onboarding team or an implementation team and then you have like an ongoing CS team and you made all of that one...

...thing exactly. The requirements and the activities still exist. Did you consolidate platforms? Did you put everything on I don't know, gainsight or to tango or sales force in some way to remove the systems that were required to execute those tasks. You know, actually it was just first it was labor and then, to your point on technology, we have a sales worse developer. That's fantastic, because we have a hundred people relying on sales force. We actually need our own developer to to sort of manage the assist the load on the system. Yeah, we built our own version of gain site and only a matter of two days with our developers because we felt like we knew which indicators of success or failure for our customers better than gains. I was going to come in with their like recommendations. We were like luck in our particular case we have two key metrics that we know are going to be really positive indication of this customer on their way, and that actually has to do with the amount of context that they email their business and separately, we use other inputs like their npscore and you know. So we said like look, we think we know what these variables are. Can I just have Dev build me a read, Yellow Green version of this and sales forst and you know what, it's working. We went through route of build first. It's not our core competency to like build the gain site, but in this case it worked very well for us, which has been a huge win. Our teams have about four hundred to five hundred accounts each wow, and so they need to prioritizes pretty quickly who they need to focus on it and that's us. Some allows them to do that. That is exciting. Yeah, it work and yeah, and to your point, that the the CS platform for not. We're not going to call anybody out specifically, but you know, they when they pitch you, they're telling you. I was on a call once and they said, well, you need to hire a CS engineer. Maybe I don't need to buy you right now. That's an exactly where we came from. We said, okay, like you know, in those technologies are are fantastic for some orgs and for hours we just felt like we're lean. And that load is also massive, you know, managing the technology to manage the accounts is a lot. So it is our own route. So when I got to know you, you are a you are a lowly vp of marketing, but give us your origin story and we know you went to Michigan, where you're from. Originally and and you know I read over some of your amazing experience at sale through and a bunch of other places. But give us the snapshot of how you got here today for the future marketers and sales people that want to be a CMO one day. Sure are. Actually I was just at the University of Michigan. They flew me out two weeks ago to give the same story because of the market of graduating marketers want to know like how to navigate this. So I felt very proud of going back to my Alma Mater to talk about that sort of navigation. But it actually started. You know, I went to University of Michigan because I was lucky enough to get a scholarship to go play soccer there. It doesn't know that. That's awesome. Yeah, I was on the University of Michigan soccer team for four years and I, you know, had a deep passion for soccer. Obviously my my entire life. And so when I was graduating I was like, you know, what do I do? Should I you know, like what's going to be the job? And you know I was graduate with communications degree. I said like, well, maybe sports marketing and aligns like the communications and an aligns the sport and I got my first job with a company called Octagon, which I still near and dear to my heart. Was My first job that I was at for about six years and while I was there I had to fantastic accounts, both BMW and Master Card. BMW for the majority of the time, about four years, Master Card for about too and as a marketer, first it was different in two ways when it was be Toc marketing and second it was very large corporate accounts, and those brands are were fantastic for me to sort of like get my bearing and marketing because they were the sort of epitomize, at least on the BMW side, like what it means to have like brand integrity and really how to take the dollars you spend and make sure that you have like massive exposure. So, anyway, I learned very quickly about branding at a very high level and I did the same when I was at Master Card. We did the two thousand and six World Cup, so that was like a massive undertaking. It was a hundred of ure. Your soccer background, that must have been that. It was amazing. It was amazing and and you know, I for part of that. I...

...my boss and mentor me, or a SISAMIKO. She was responsible for mastercards spokespeople, which was Pale. So I for two years worked with my idol, sort of globe trotting with him for the World Cup appearances, and you know, I could remember, you know, saying up late night with him watching the World Cup games and we were kicking the soccer ball in the hallway of like a four seasons and like Mexic, you know, just like that is an incredible memory. That's any thing side out. It was sort of surreal and such a wonderful time in my life. But, you know, like zooming out from there. I said, like this was great, but I really enjoyed about the marketing. was like how creative. You know, I love everything about marketing and that was a fantastic experience on the BTB, on the BTC side, excuse me, but I said, you know, the consumer brands, like it's great to like work in big corporate consumer brands. I said, but, like, you know, I'm really I really enjoy like Tach, you know, I did's booming. I really want to get into this, but I went back to business school so that I could to learn the fundamentals. You know, it s level at my business acumen and make sure that I could at least have a seat at the table if I were to take a job and start up in tach and so after that I took my first job at timelink, which is like the most boring technology in the world. Time and attendance is like you talk about technology that's like that really that fun to market that. But the CEO had modest expectations. He said like four million, we want to go to like eight and I said, well, I'll take a chance on me. I've a BC marketing background, but you know, I will dig in and I will make sure that I can help grow this business and we did that. In three years. You've got sold to Chronos. And then I went to Lua. I actually had a sort of a miss step at LOA. It was a series a company and for someone like me who was a little hard to sort of work within the budget constraints the series a. What is the would do, or did they do? So it's a workforce communication technology. Right now they specialize in healthcare. So at the time they were servicing many industries. I think that they've they've put it and been specific to healthcare. But in any case, I one of my colleagues that I had left timeline with was at sale through and she said like well, they're looking for marketers. So then I went to sale throught and I was sort of had of growth. The day I was hired, the CMO was let go and so I sort of walked into this de facto like head of marketing role there. I had fantastic colleagues on the sale through side and I was there a little under two years before sign post, before open view had reached out to me, which is one of the sign post investors, and I've been here about three years. I love the story and by the way, don't worry about Miss Steps. I've made more than my fair sters. It's easy to do, you know. You'd think, based on all the you know, the conversations you have before you take a you know another role, you think you'd have vetted everything, but you know there's dynamics and any business that makes it just something that may not be a match. So yeah, and the other part of it is that a really the more senior you are, the more you really division your vision alignment with the founder passed in sync, because it just can't work if you see the world differently than the founder and you're part of the executive team at just the immediately get out of alignment. Absolutely, and you know that. One other point I'd make on the founder piece of it. You know the my current CEO Today, ace to. He's a first time. Yes to all, he's fantastic. He's one of the smartest people I've I've ever met and I've learned in the three years. The amount I've learned has been absolutely incredible. I have him to thank for that. But he has a first time founder to there is a difference, I think, in, you know, working with first time founders and working with somebody that's more seasoned. I think that those, you know, more seasoned CEOS who've done this like multiple times just have different perspectives and I haven't yet worked with a founder that isn't first time. So I think hopefully, and you know, the next set of roles I take in my career, I'd be interested to see perhaps what that was like. That's really interesting. I guess a lot of us has been a lot of time with first time founders. I think the thing that comes I don't know if you agree or disagree. But it's funny because the more senior folks are much looser in some ways, in the sense that they're much more comfortable delegating because they have they know what they know and they know what they don't know and aren't good at and don't have any anxiety...

...about that. They don't feel any pressure to be great at everything. They understand. Yeah, this is the thing, I'm good, I'm going to hire great people and let them do there. Absolutely, absolutely. I you know, having not worked with someone who isn't a first time founder, I can imagine, though, that for a founder, a first time founder, that those things are really hard to do, like relinquish control, because you know it's your baby, and yet you know you've been you burning a lot of those exactly. And the last point is probably that you know, if you're super young. Stew actually has a lot of experience at this point, but other first timers that I've worked with their little self conscious, you know, because maybe they're wondering, should I be in this role in the first place, and so they sometimes feel the need to to overcompensate. Absolutely, I mean it's natural like it. I don't think it's a no fault of their own. I just think that that's really this thing that they suffer from sometimes, like they can't get other own way. But you know, in any case, I he is fantastic and you know he's been wonderful sort of mentorors. Yeah, and you guys have get built that business to a place that you know, from my perspective, once your past twenty million, that's I guess Jason Limpkin or Aaron Ross or somebody says that anything past a million is inevitable to get to a hundred, which is absolutely insanity. But my perspective is that really the period north of ten, from ten to twenty, is the hardest part of Skate Art. I've seen ten to twenty twice sailed through and and sign post. But there is part of me, you know, beyond sign post. What does two thousand and forty look like as a marketer? And you know, like do the tactics change? What do the investments look like? Those are are very interesting sort of concepts. For me it's I move forward. Yeah, you know, I think I know how talented you are. I don't think it's my experience in life is that this the product market fit is going to pull you along and you're not going to get less intelligent as you go from two thousand and two forty. I hope not, but yeah, that's sort of my thought about that too, that, you know, you don't lose your ability to think about how to make investments in marketing efforts that are working right. You know, you just keep dumping the money into the channel that's making you the more, the most money, and having an eye for that is is really something that doesn't change. But I agree some there's investors out there that are always going to you know, because it's specially prominent in my role, where they're saying, well, we need you know, you're the zero to thirty cro three thousand two hundred from Oracle or sales force, and like, I'm not sure those people are going to have the intensity that's necessary sometimes to keep pushing this business for but I totally agree it. Totally agree. So, moving away from a somewhat controversial topic to a less controversial topic, you know a lot of people have a different point of view. Want what the word marketing means and a lot of people don't know what it means. And twenty years ago, I think there was even less information or education in the market and people basically assumed it's branding. You know, it's you make the brochures and your charge of the website and you do the you know, the laborious logo redesign. What do you think marketing means? Yeah, it's a great question, and I think marketing is synonymous with revenue. I view marketing as a service ORG to revenue. The revenue team, which would be yours mother Cros, like my, job is to make sure that, you were, teams are up for success in terms of like how do you find the accounts you should be working and then how do you go sell into those and most efficient manner? There are many disciplines to marketing, which is why sometimes people like confleet what the job is or really have this like nebulous understanding of like marketing. But from my perspective there's probably about seven disciplines in marketing. But brand is something that always evolves and iterates as you grow, I mean unless your product is you know, even BMW right. They have the most, in my opinion, like fantastic brand guidelines on the planet and they're very strict about those that. And so there's some things that you know you drive a stake in the ground with. BMW hasn't gone through a rebrand in many, many years. But if you're a company like sign post or you're you know, you're in a startup, the product is likely going to change more frequently than BMW is, and so, from my experience right like you have to keep brand is like this...

...iterative, living, breathing thing, and brand just very simply as like what you say you are, like, how do you speak? Like what is the message and the tone and ethos of the brand, and then the design, which is like how you look. So those two components make up the brand and you constantly work on those. We went through a rebrand at sign post mainly because I wanted to codify some of those things that are import for our business, and we had many, many, many different iterations of the sign post brand here are like different color Palettes, like things were really all over the place. So I said, like, let's pull this together, because I do think that those are important and foundational. I do not consider myself a brand marketer, though. I don't I can't come to you with some Elo quint copy that's, you know, going to like blow your mind and forwards I work with an agency on that and I was very happy with the agency that I picked for the rebrand. But brand is something that lives on always. Beyond that there are just like core disciplines, which is, I. Content Marketing, digital marketing, product marketing, customer marketing. You know, there's many disciplines underneath that, and so it just, I think, long in the short of this is that, as a marketer, that the job is really to just ruthlessly prioritize, like where you spend time, to drive the most revenue and put people, good people around you that are better than you and any one of those areas. And I had the benefit of like working really hard as a marketer, getting my hands really dirty for many, many years. So I know how to do all of these. I just now I'm able and afforded the like luxury of getting good people to do them better than I could. So, yeah, one quick question for my own edification. You went through a rebrand out of what is that? I know what it means, but yeah, but what does it mean? So you know, how long was it? How time intensive? I guess the output was a bunch of different things. Yep, and how involved was the agency? I'm just curious on the overall process because I think a lot of founders out there frankly have a point of there. We're all wondering, like how do you caught a fine art totally ran through deliverables and through output totally. So I am very left brain marketer. I think my strength, like I said, is is demand Jin and so the brand piece for me is actually a little bit harder. I I need help there and that for me. So that men an agency. So I went through a very, very rigorous agency process where I wrote in RFP and I just basically said like, okay, what are the things that are important to us? We need a codify or message. We need somebody to help us really communicate what it is we do and not in a way that just says like we're marketing automation. That was a goal. It was the ethos of the project was to say like speak to people, and so that was part of the RP. Is the message and also the design. Now, for us we had a product UX that we needed to Redo any way because the actual products didn't communicate all the value that MEA drives, which is our AI. So I said like look, if we're really going to do this right, I can't be in some marketing Stylo and just developing a new logo, a color Palette and dimension to the brand without a product that we feel good about. So ours was two part. We had the agency work on product Dashboard, which delivered, which is on our site today. That helped feed the tone and the style of the actual brand to and the process was about ten weeks. I was like Ruth once we selected the agency, was ruthless about taking them through a ten week process. They want that done too. So we were like very strict about our timelines. We had weekly check ins with the CEO, but I had daily check ins with them on the process and the deliverable from that. I was very clear about I wanted new messaging, which I wanted delivered in a deck which could be communicated in mission vision values, and then I wanted them to take that and I wanted them to give me four pages of our website, which included copywriting. So they did all that. They delivered a dashboard, they deliver brandon style guide with like all the stuff that you see on signpost today, which is sort of like these thin lines, a new logo and the site for ten weeks and for a hundred thousand dollars. That was a heavier investment than we wanted to make. But if you think about how he broke out the project, Fiftyzero was spent on product UX and design, which is actually pretty inexpensive, and Fiftyzero was spent on the...

...marketing rebrand, which is by itself pretty inexpensive. To go through everything we did did. They gave you style guide and sort of brand guidelines to product team maybe a third of the way through, so that you know exact legs could evolve in conjunction with, you know, their splash page, resign, stuff like that, exactly. And the CEO and the head of product and I we met. That was like a three legged stool because one it's the vision of the CEO, which is important from my perspective. Right I have opinions, but this is his baby and so my job is I really felt like the facilitator, and that's why I'm okay with not being the one who needs to copyright a website or who has all these like magical thoughts about what I think the brand should look like, as, frankly, it's not up to me, it's him. So that's what I did and he was very, very satisfying things. Very happy we are. Actually, you know, we're going through another messaging project today, because it changes a lot. You know, his vision for where were every day. Not Every day, but like you know, once a quart are you kind of like revisit what the product is doing and say like, okay, are we still matched up to the message? And actually that's changing a little bit. So that's sorry, very long winded it. No, it's important because Ei there's so much. You know, in podcast land and thought leader land you get a lot of high level bullshit sometimes, but now we mean that's an important it's the way it's I have a playbook on it too, that I would share. I mean, you know, my job is like bring that playbook with me where I go. I would be anybody needing that, I'd be happy to share, like even the agency lists in New York and things like that. I think I'm a very good like folder of stuff. So you're awesome. Thank you. There's a part of marketing that everybody talks about. Everybody wants. Demand Generation. The funny, Hilarious, depressing thing I've seen people nobody knows what it means. They all say, okay, I wanted to man generation manager. They hire that person and then they give them about two weeks and then they say what was the money? It takes a little longer than that. Tell us about your thoughts on Toma Generation, because I've learned a lot of my perspective from you. Would be great for you to share your perspective. Sure, it's funny that you put all those adjectives together, which is like hilarious and and like qualifying, and it is like actually all of those things. I mean simply demand Jin it is just how do you generate interest in the product? From my perspective, there's two ways to do that. You can push your information to somebody. That's more of that. I don't want to call it brand awareness, but that's how you like sort of disruptive buying cycles by pushing or information. That's why email is a channel that it's most often used, because you're trying to just get your information out there. But that's push right, like they didn't come to you, they weren't making a search for it, they just said, like we said, we think we've identified you as a need for this. The method I like better, which actually works very well, on the SNB side is the pull hub. Spot made a big deal about inbound a long time ago, so it's not a new concept. But frankly, like the buying motion, is a much more highly converting channel when they've come to you, when you've send something out there in the world and then they raise their hand and said like Oh yeah, this is something I'm interested in reading about. That's a more highly qualified lead. Obviously, then like a cold call or a linkedin connection those demand Gen efforts. So today, as an example, this may be less relevant to those selling into enterprise, but I'll I'll speak to our ad words. For SMB. Right now we have a whole demand Gen team which is a hundred people cold calling on the phone. They are disrupting buying cycles in their calls. And it's super interesting that you called the SDRs a demand Gen team because your point, you view activities of getting people interested in the product to be a marketing function. I do definitely. I mean I think about it that way. I few sales is like the person who's able to take the interests then and go cultivate a relationship and get the deal done. That's a skill set I rely on you for I phone. I think I'd be the worst sales person on the planet, but I happy to give you guys, you know, way ups or conversations. But yeah, I all that's demand, Jen. And then on the inbound demand, Jen I, I love like when you can get people coming to you raising your their hand because they're interested. Those are going to convert much more highly than anybody you've bludgeoned over...

...the head with as gold calls and emails. You know, like you can have the most magical drip campaign on the planet, but like you know, somebody's not ready to buy and they don't see that, you know, they can't immediately see the value. They're deleting your emails. But that's why content marketing service such a like important discipline, because it's the very highest part of the demand Jen are like, is what did you put out there in the world that pulled somebody into your funnel and the middle of the funnel, then that's when the product marketer comes in, because, okay, that I now generally interested in what your product like. The problem which the content marketers yourself were and then the product marketing should say like, okay, this is actually the solution that fixes it, and then the customer marketing pieces, like, okay, these are all the customers that are using it that are like kicking butt that these people in the funnel should now know about. So I sort of see that as like a how that group of tasks plays into the demand jet. So yeah, and you're mentioning ad words. What were you gonna About? Tell us about different productive channels? Yes, you get leads, because that's what everybody wants, I know right. So adwords works incredibly well for us on the STB side. Less so when I was at sale through, when we were I mean if you're a good cmo, you have a general idea of the technologies that were out there in the world. So I'll just give you an example. Like awards did work at sale through and frank I can't speak to what it it's doing now. It did drive pipeline. It's rare, though, that a CMO of like j crow is googling like which email service provider should I use? I mean, fuck, you know, excuse me, but if you're the head, if you're the head of marketing at Ja Crow and you're googling what email service provider should I use? I mean again, maybe it's people doing research and just trying to see what's out there, but that's far less likely. You're hopefully more up to speed on that because you've a team of people invested in like responses or sale through or whatever. So we found that, you know, that work just you know, different kinds of pipeline was actually being generated from that those efforts. On the SMB side, there are local business owners that actually have no idea how to market or email marketer. Are they have like pain point. They act like, I don't want to say they're all not technologically sophisticated, but the goal of them owning a business wasn't like what technology is can I use to get this job done better? It's like I have a customer base I need to make happy. My cousin owns Tier Care Landscaping Company. He's worried about like plowing. He's not like do I need the crm? But in his pain points when he does have a problem, he says like how do I email market? He searches for things that are like problems for him, if that makes sense, and that's when that channel for us on the local business side becomes very important very powerful, because we show up we feel a very specific need for that specific search and we get them right to a sale team in the sales seam closes them. So, top to bottom, that conversion channel for us is five percent. Wow, that's very good. Yeah, it's good in terms of conversary and the LTV to Kack on that is about to now some people would say, like, think about the market, you know, we closed a lot of those. Every dollar we put in we get two bucks out and we close lots of them. The topline revenue grows and we still met better than we whatever without it. But the enterprise side, though, right, like if you're not at like three to five, forget it. When you say five percent, is it from the form fill, after the AD Click? Yes, so from lead to close. Yeah, so after the form field. So good. That's still very good. Yeah, and and, like I said, the metric we care about is LTV to cack. So I look at actually the funnel conversion rate to think the matters for the business is LTV to cack. You know, obviously the same would go. You know, it's true for any business. So if you move all up to enterprise, the LTV TO CAC matters. Now the LTV on enterprise deals is so high that you can afford to bring your marketing hack up. That's why you could do an event for like Fifteenzero dollars, which I love, for the enterprise right hand to hand combat. Those people are there because they like need or they're doing their research. At least you know it means. We had a trade show, like they flew all the way to wherever to get to the exhibit hall where they know they're going to get pummeled and email till the end of time. But if you have the meaningful conversation with them they're the likelihood of that close is also going to be very high and you'll pay that off more than five acts. And might...

I agree you like trade shows, Sam I means you go, when you go. Are you like this is meaningful? It is the age old question, and the reason is theed old question is because a lot of the times, if you're going to sponsor a show, the booth cost is going to compare to hiring two SDRs, probably at least for the first year. So from that perspective I don't Love Them. I like them when we can speak at them, you know, when like the CEO can be on a panel or we can be invested more than just writing a huge check to the organizer. And then there's certain shows that I feel sort of obligated to be at. And then the final thought is I like hijacking them. You know, which is the more bending off thing of I'll just do a dinner around the trade show, I'm not going to go to the show. But to your point, it's a bunch of people that have expressly raised their hand and said this is a category where I have pain and interest, so let me find a way to to entice them with some kind of event or some kind of gathering. Yeah, I agree with you. I mean when you can hijack them, you should, but you know, I'd sail through. We had a consistent presence with etail because we sold specifically to eat commers retail, which is like literally their whole base. So we spent to make sure that we were frond of that group more frequently so they felt like we are trusted partner, because we were competing against some of the like legacy tax, like, you know, responses, and we had to win the business and that, you know, we felt like the more we could get in front of them, that that consistent presence that we would make them feel like. Okay, the when I was a live stream, we would spend it's to your point, you know, you just got to have a solid point of view and your unit economics. Yeah, that will inform how comfortable you feel, because you know, when we were at live stream we would spend, I mean close to seven figures to go to the show any being in a National Association of broadcasters. And the problem with that was this. The deal sizes were so tiny, you know, and it was such a big show. We'd scan five thou leads. I don't have a good framework for figuring out what to do with those leads in the right way. The other thing I'll say, a last thing about trade shows is I often feel like it's a snake getting a pig. It's very hard to digest a batch of like a thousand leads that you scamp the show all at once. There's no natural way. I'd much rather for, for frankly, a thousand leads over the course of six weeks where I've got like a workflow and emotion set up to handle each lead in the proper way. Otherwise it's just very a lot falls through the cracks. Yeah, you get like completely saturated with the leads and it's hard to know like qualify them on based on that. Events is one one channel. Digital is getting very good now at sort of rounding out your like Omni Channel experience because you get very precise and targeting. Either accounts are contacts, because with facebook and Linkedin in particular, you can do an exact email match, and either one of those systems where you're like, okay, I have this person's email. In some cases, and I would say forty percent of the time that's been my experience, you can do an exact email match because some people don't use their work email. I mean some people don't use their work email for facebook. A lot don't. Yeah, and the same is true with Linkedin. So it's very unlikely you have their personal email. But you can get very creative with how you try to find these people in both digital channels and in that case you are pushing your information in front of them. But they do come in as inbound once they raise their hand, which I like that that's automatically like self selecting, and those are better ways for me to get leads to the sales org. So they're not sifting through, like you said, like the crazy amounts of unqualified. So that's on the digital side. There's another channel that I really love, which we haven't invested too much in here because we were not we haven't gone up market, but that's affiliate. I'm not sure what your perspective is on this, though. Say'm like, I give you an example. A E marketer right lots to see him. Like if you want to reach a CMO, you can probably assume the CMOS have our on some distribution list for e marketer and also for cmocom. Those are like affiliates. You just pay to get access to these people and then again, like you do an email blast with them and then, once the blast goes out, you collect all the then mountains. We...

...did a forster Webinar. So for Sir, we paid for ster for Webinar. It was a significant investment rated by you know, are you in like one of their quadrons before you get the Web? Now, okay, which is why I did it. This is my recommendation to anybody an enterprise who thinks that they need analyst relations is to get your name on the map. It's sort of paid a play, but you do get your name on the map. You get the forester briefings. They listen to your CEO talk about what the technology is, and then the CEO and the forester analyst and we actually had a customer all do a joint Webinarre together. It was really powerful. And then we took that Webinar and I gave it to business insider and I said like, go blast this out. You know, we got four hundred and fifty people to give us their information, to access the information. So that means it's exactly the person we want. It may not be the accounts we want, but the function is there. And separately, they came in his hand Rais or so like they're at least warmer, so maybe they have can actions or whatever. So there are many creative ways to generate demand, but there is no exact science. At first, you know, it's art and thinking about where you want to go, spend a little bit of money to test and then, like I said once, you now you just double down. Yeah, absolutely, and you've often said to me the you're headed Demangaon as a hedge fun portfolio manager, figuring out what stocks to buy. It totally. I mean I that's like the best analogy I could draw because you know that. That's what you do. Like you know the business is going to give you cash and the job is to go figure out how to get more cash from that cash. So it's before we almost we're nearing the end of our time together. But I want to close out. What's your number one sort of recommendation when CEOS or companies are thinking about demand generation or initiating that function? Do you have one or two insights to help a first time founder that's thinking about hiring a marketer how to frame or think about demand generation investment? I would say you know not to go to senior on the higher. I mean that may be intuitive, but generally, if you can get a doer to help think about the CEO is likely the person who may have the best intuition about where to find the people he's selling to or wants to sell the product to. You can test small amounts of money with like a good smart doer first to just get like a general. I mean it depends on how small right. I mean we tested small amounts of money when I came here to find the answers to that and then we'd park the money. It doesn't need to be some crazy like massive heavy lift and all these analyzes. And if you're willing to spend tenzero dollars to test across four or five channels, that should probably do it. But you know, you have to commit some money and just some time. So there's no magic bullet, I think. On the demand Jon, but I think people get very scared about it and then they think that they have to go on some search on Linkedin for like the best demand Gen person in the city, and that may not be the case. Yeah, and also, by the way, those people are you are a rare breed. There's not many great demension people, so you get to have to roll up your your sleeves, your hands dirty. Yes, exactly. Always the pay it forward part of our conversation. So one thing we like to know is what's in your text act? You know one or two tools that you think other people should know about, and what do they do for you? This is going to be awful, but Marquetto is our sort of clutch. You know, marketing, animation probably obvious. I love Gecko Board. I have many different sources feeding meat. Data. Word, God, it's amazing. It's like a hundred bucks and on. Basically it's a Bi tool. I mean again, it doesn't actually do any of the marketing for you, but it gives me good insights for where I should be turning levers. It's a Bi that just integrates all your different technology. So like add words is is feeding into Gecko board, Marquetto is feeding into Getto word, sales horse feed into getto words. So the text I do have, and I have a very lean tech SAC marquetto being like the most important one, but the other information I do have comes feeding into GECO board and it just one stop shop. I get the APP on my phone, I can have the DASH board and it gives me all the information. Awesome. Okay, Great, I'm moving out of order from our script here. But Advice for specifically women? You know, we're in a diversity moment. So, as a successful, powerful technology executive that is also...

...a woman, any advice or thoughts about how they should manage their careers to get to where you are? Yeah, I think this is an incredibly important topic. Obviously, with two recent developments across every industry it's becoming even more cute. I would say, though, that I've tried to operate from a place of results for my career. I've worked hard, I've put my head down. I sadly may have been oblivious to anybody who is treating me differently because I'm female, but I know it exists and I think the advice for me in this situation is to just let your results speak for themselves and like really let it guide you forward. So when you're given a task or when you're in a room, you need to make sure that you are standing behind the work you're doing with like really good data. So that's been sort of the thing, I think that has kept me moving forward, that it hasn't been about gender, even though I do know it's a problem for some or for many, that my guiding light has been just kick some ass and then hopefully that those things can kind of fall out of your way. Yeah, what's good advice? Thank your favorite other exact fee piece of sales or CMOS or VP's of marketing that we all should know about. Sure. So you know you mentioned earlier, but Dave Govin was a fantastic partner at sale through John Piddell. Really smart had to sales Brad come. He was our sep of bed here. You, of course, Sam. I know we frequently go back and forth because you're my partner on the other side, so you're the guy that generating all the revenue. I need to know like where your pain points are. As an example, the arrows are very important for me. And then the two marketers, Nick Chrisman, he's, namely, yes, Super, Super Smart, Nice Guy, and Kyle Lacy. He and I work together when he was V marketing at open view. He's a VP of marketing now at lessonly we frequently. Both of these guys have shared just our best practices and you know, they're doing every day like those are the people that are helpful to me, just as practitioners like okay, definitely don't do this or do this. Those are good conversation. And to your point about hiring an upandcomer, nick, I think when he joined, namely, I don't think he had a lot of marketing experience. Now, well, he's made himself an amazing marketer. Is He's smart and he's like a doer. He he's a go getter and now he's just crushing it and I'm you know, I'm happy to know him and he's a good guy. Cool. Any other sort of investors or people that are inspirational for you that you think we should know about before sign post. I think you know the and I hadn't had a lot of investor relations before coming to sign post, but and I know to mention someone on my I my current board, is the ones on my current board are fantastic. People like Tyson Barber, Justin Lafayatte, Todd Dagress, Adam Marcus like those are from the spark, Jordan and and open view. They have all been fantastic. You know, when you present to the board you want to know their thoughts. These are really smart guys, not like why isn't this going the right way, but like okay, but what is your perspective on how we might make a change? Of all the beantastic in like helping to guide that conversation, which I found very, very helpful. So they're in the top of my list. Awesome. Last question for you. First of all, you're an mdthree fan. Is that right? Yeah, just taste in music. I don't think it's that weird. I just didn't I don't is it road blaster an album or a song? It's a song that you know they're like. Do all these like s song remakes find. Okay, that's like the most s I found, so I'm going to listen to it this afternoon and then your favorite book, movie or podcast. My favorite book is Darwin's doubt. I love reading the different views between sort of like religion and atheism, and like the how the sciences converge. So that's my latest one. It's very difficult to get through. It's what are you dance? It's about intelligent design, you know, like the concept that how could we have evolved, even though that that's my point of view. How could we have evolved? The way we were designed is too intelligent for evolution. And but I like the competing views because obviously I'm...

I but have one very strong point of view. This is sort of another Pov and yeah, very interesting. It's Danse, but it's very interesting. Blind watchmaker is another one. That's another one that's intense. I think the people that don't believe in evolution will have even more trouble when they do more reading and come up with the theory, realize the theories of that life came from Mars. was like there was Mitochondria and like single cell organisms on these asteroids that hit the earth and anyway, no way. Oh, I'll look that up. What's your by the way, I'm interested. Huh, I'll tell you what I'm reading now. My favorite book overall as tender as the night, but that's because I'm a depressive person and like tragedy from a marketing perspective. I just read play bigger. Do you know that book? No, now, I'll put on my list. It's all about category design, which is very similar to what you know, what you're talking about and now and then the other book that I read recently is a bend in the river, which is about Africa and the s by fs and I Paul. But okay, that's because I'm not always reading business books, which I encourage other people to exactly. If people want to get in touch with you, do you have a preferred channel? Are you open to people reaching out to you? Yes, definitely linkedin or you can send me an email and here at sign posts a Kale. That's sign postcom. Awesome, Andrea, thank you so much for joining the Sales Haacker podcast and you've been always insightful. Congratulations, and I success a sign post and that and we're going to talk to you soon. Thank you, Andrew. All Right, Sam. Thanks what a great interview with Andrea. This is SAM's corner. A couple thoughts from Andrew's interviews. She shared so much insight. First of all, she very specifically gave us a framework for a rebrand, and so if you're a company thinking about going through that process, there are specific details. Ten Week process. The outputs were four pages for the website where the the agency wrote the copy. It was a partnership with product so that the product exemplified and represented the brand. The agency got a hundred thousand dollars. Andre has got references for us if we need them. So that's a very specific thing because I'm always thinking about brand and how to manage it and what the investment is worth relative to agency partners that we might use a different organizations that I'm working for. And then the second thing that you mentioned, which she's very focused on, is LTBTKAC. Obviously, when you're thinking about demand generation, you need to be thinking about the lifetime diet the customer and how much it cost to acquire them. I will add, however, that LTV can be a very misleading metric if your capital constrained because, especially at very low numbers, if you're not seeing that money come back. It may be that there's a reasonable lifetime value, reasonable but if you're spending a tremendous amount of money to acquire the customer because you're under pressure to grow and it's going to take you a long time to get the money back, that's going to impose very significant capital constraints in the business. You've got to think about your balance sheet. So that's why those ratios are so important, because if you're at anything below really three to one, if you're at two to one or one and a half to one, you're getting paid back, that's true, but you're getting paid back over the life of a customer, which maybe years, and so you got to really think about making sure you have the cap at all relative to the ltb to caack ratios, that you can scale. This has been Sam's corner. Thanks so much for listening. To check out the show notes, see upcoming guests and play more episodes from our incredible line up of sales leaders, visit sales hackercom podcast. You can also find the sales hacking podcast on itunes or Google play or anywhere that you consume your podcasts. If you enjoyed this episode. Please share with your peers on Linkedin, twitter or elsewhere. Special thanks again to this month's sponsors at Gong. See More Gong dot IO. Forward sales hacker. And finally, if you want to get in touch with me, you can find me on twitter at Sam f Jacobs or on Linkedin at linkedincom and slash Sam f Jacobs. SEE YOU NEXT TIME.

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