The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

7. How to Align Marketing and Sales With Demand Gen w/ Andrea Kayal

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

On this episode of the Sales Hacker podcast, we talk with Andrea Kayal, Chief Marketing Officer at Upserve and most recently Chief Marketing Officer at Signpost.

One two one thre three before we get started, we want to thinkthis month sponsor introducing Gong Dot io the number one conversationintelligence platform for Sales Gong helps. You generate more revenue byhaving better sales conversations, it automatically captures and analyzesyour teams conversations. So you can transform your team into quotashattering, supersellers CIS, it Gondot IO, forward fas sales hacker to get inon the action and seilized, and now I'm with the show everybody I'm here with Andrea Kal. TheCheek Marketing Officero signpost were so excited to have roun the salespacker podcast. I want to tell you a little bit about Andrew as she's, in myopinion, the best marketer in New York City at a minimum and she's one of thepeople that I rely on for a lot of guidance. Around N Marketing in generalwit demand generation specifically, but let me read you or bio, as the ChiefMarketing Officer Andrew is responsible for marketing customer success andbusiness operations at signpost. Her focus areas are demand, generation,brand messaging, creative marketing, automation, Marketing Communications,PR marketing sales alignment and customer retention. Before joiningSignpost Andrew led marketing teams at Timelink, Lua and sale through andbefore transitioning into tech, she worked at Octagon where she managedGobal Marketing initiaves for BMW and Master Card. She went to the Universityof Michigan Goblue and received her MBA from American University. WelcomeAndria thanks salmon and thanks for the kind words and Yeas Goblo we're happyto have you I'm happy to have you so to frame your experience for everybodybecause they don't know you as well as I do. Let's talk about what we callyour baseball card, so we know your name. ANDRIC KAL CMO at sign post tellus a little bit about signpost. Who are they? What do they do sure so? SignPost is an aidriven crm which basically drives reviews and revenue for localservice businesses, so it is more SB and midmarket focused previously. I wasfocused on on enterprise, but that's sort of the high level of of sign post,okay and Revenue Range for the company, so we know how big it is. Generallyspeaking, sidecoast is tenty to twenty five million, but when I've joined thiscompany- and my previous company sailed through we for around the ninety tenmillion dollar range, so in both cases, I've seen sort of we've doubled thethear yeah. Exactly doubling is good. We like to doand your experience itself,who is awesome so, and we know a lot of the same people like Dave Goven fromfrom yeah. How much money has have you guys raised so we're in seate we raisedabout twenty million dollars, okay and then this size of the Org. So weunderstand the context like how big is the organization that you're running,but the marketing organ, if you have insights on the sales team in the SRShat, would be great sure, so sign post is about a hundred and fifty personorganization bout, a hundred of those a little bit less are in sales roles, sowe have a very, very heavy sales focus business and I oversee threedepartments or three functions so first marketing and of REVOS. Those are thetwo that I see that generate the demand and then alternately on the other sideof the business. I overseiv bout, a forty person customer SIS organizationso now on ter responsible for working with the sales seem to generatetheirevedue, but I have to worry about the cash leaving the business as well.How do you feel about that? Do you feel itis that the right alignment? Honestlyit's fantastic? It's Goivt me for fantastic. You know perspective becauseyou know. Usually marketing is responsible for driving, leads to salesleaders or sales accepted lads, or you know whatever the terminology. Thebusiness is using and you're really worried about the quality of thatbusiness, but frankly that the most important thing is not only the qualityfor the sales seem to close the deal, but it's is the fit of the businessmatch, because if ther were teaing, they cash on the the other and righlike an anybody. Looking at the business in terms of like the valuethat they're going to give you when they either acquire you or or whateveryour IPO ing, they want to make sure...

...that the customers actually use theproduct dinner are saying on for a long time. So it's been massively beneficialto me as just a marketer to know both you know what's good for revenuedriving but then like which businesses are good for retaining yeah I've seencustomer success report to sales all the time. In a fact, I've run thoseorganizations, but I don't know that I've seen customer success report tomortins marketing when we were doing sort of the design for our business ordesigned for the business. You know- and I was talking o the CEO about this-that the head of sales today has massive. You know his responsibilityfor revenue is, is sort of like has a lot of breath and we have nearly sevensales channels and the reason it reports to marketing today wont is, youknow, is sort of a capacity issue, but two we're working on actually makingthe customer success or more of a revenue generation. You know today it'smore like a revenue retention model when we change that we may move theWORG under a different leader, but today it's been just one day to pointhere: An uncustomer success. Interestingly enough, when I took overthe org, it was much larger than it is today, but the good news is: We'vetaken the Oregon terms of like cost head count like the Costo revenue downtwenty percent year over year and we've increased. Our retension am prove ittwenty percent year over year. So the good news is were we're, making somereally great progress on the CS side, but it's like for at least for thisgroup. It's a helpful perspective in terms of we drive yeah. So it's beengood news, that's Amit! Well, typically, what we do is get your life story, butI might stay here for a second, because that's kind of amazing and also just asa testament to your capabilities. A lot of people ask me: where should XYZfunction report there's a ways that you can design the organization, but a lotof the times. It's just the capabilities and talent of theleadership, and so, if you've got a leader like you, you get moreresponsibility and if thank Sam so so kind of you to say thatthe funny thing is, though it's e, you know that's a double edge short. I meanyou know. Now I have three departments. The good new says, yes, that I feelthankful that the Co, like empowered me to basically take a project and getgood people around it and like solve a problem, I I think that that's reallykey. You need to know that your leader can do that, but also as we scale. Ithink that that's been the most exciting part of this job, for me, hasjust been in being able to like tackle the challenges. To It's been really fun.It keeps it interesting, so you know we don't want to be too mercenary aboutthis, but you lowered cost twenty percent and you increase yourtentiontwenty percent. What did you do differently or any key tactics orinsights that you learned over the last? I guess it's Yoar running customersuccess that we can share with the audience yeah when I inhirit at the Org,I would say at this is basically this is an answer to one of the questionsthat I reviewed below, which is like what is the biggest driver betweensuccess and failure? Ind, your most recent role. I can answer that veryspecifically, at least is it relates to cs that's removing complexity. We had alot of people, doing sort of very complicated cs management and like alot of complicated systems, feeding into how they did their dayto day job.So what I did was I just look toalistically at, like all the roles, ahiy broke down, basically the time they're spending on in the role and weconsolidated task. So I think the long in the shortitus is when we sign up aassign post merchant. They were going between different CS teams. I basicallycombined all those teams and gave that one ccount manager the responsibilityof all of those, but that allowed us to do a scale. So we were constrainedartificially by like sort of these. Like small teams, we now gave everybodythe account from start to finish, which allowed them to grow their books waybeyond. You know sort of the artificial contraines that were in there, and Ithink it was just a matter of like I said, removing the complexity like withall that complicated process in there. It really was a very high tax andencumvered us from sort of scale. So that's SA? U Ow the long, an the Shorotit yeah, so the counter argument would be while specialization of labor isitself a form of simplicity and if the account manager are you saying that,basically maybe you had a nonboarding team or an implementation team, andthen you had like an ongoing CS team and you made all of that. One thingexactly he requirements and the...

...activities still exist. Did youconsolidate platforms? Did you put everything on? I don't know gainsiderto tango or sales force in some way to remove the systems that were ared toexecute those tasks. You know. Actually it was just first, it was labor and then to yourpoint on technology, we have a sales for Develper, that's fantastic, becausewe 'th a hundred people relying on sales force. We actually need our own developer it to tor of manage thetisist, the load on the system yeah. We built our own version of gainsight andonly a matter o two days with our developers, because we felt like weknew which indicators of successor failure for customers better than gainesay was going to come in with their like recommendations. We were like lookin our particular case. We have two K matrics that we know are going to bereally positive indication of this customer on their way and that actuallyhas to do with the amount of context hut. They email their business andseparately. We use other inputs like their NPS score, and you know so wesaid like look. We think we know what these variables are. Can I just haveDEV build me? A read, Yellow Green version of this and Sales Tros, and youknow what it's working. We went threug route of build. First, it's not ourcore competency to like build the Ganesite, but in this case it workedvery well for us, which has been a huge on. Our teams have about four hundred ofive hundred accounts, each wow, and so they need to prioritize pretty quicklywho they need to focus on it, and that's a SOM allows them to do that.That is exciting, Yeai work and, at your point, that the CS platform werenot we're not going to call anybody out specifically, but you know Y, when theypicch you they're telling you. I was on a call once and they said well, youneed to hire a CS engineer. Maybe I don't need to buy you right now,aexactly, where we came from, we said: okay, like you know, th, then thosetechnologies are a fantastic for some orgs and for hours. We just felt likewere lean and that load is also massive. You know. Managing the technology tomanage the accounts is a lot, so it is own rout. So when I got to know you,you were a you were a little vp of marketing but give us your origin story,and we know you went to Michigan where re you from originally and- and youknow, I read over some of your amazing experience- it Sall through and a bunchof other places, but give us the snapshot of how you got here today forthe future marketers and sales people that want to be a cmo an day sure.Actually, I was just at the University of Michigan. They flew me out two weeksago to give the same story, because the market of graduating marketers want toknow like how do you navigate this? So I felt very proud of going back to myalmamator to talk about that sort of navigation, but it actually started.You know I went to University of Michigan because I was lucky enough toget a scholarship to go play soccer there. Oh, I didn't know that that'sawesome yeah! I was on the University of Michigaan Socer Tei for four yearsand I you know, had a deep passion forsoccer. Obviously my entire life, and so when I was graduating, I was likeyou know. What do I do should I you know like: What's it going to be thejob, and you know I was gradutng with communications degree I said like well:Maybe Sports Marketing, ind tha lines like the communications and in thelines sport and I got my first job with a company called actagon which, stillnear and dear to my heart, was my first job that I was at for about six yearsand while I was there, I had two fantastic accounts: both BMW and master-cart, BMW for the majority at a time about four years, MasterCard for abouttwo and as a marketer. First, it was different in to as when it was Beta,cee marketing and second, it was very large corporate accounts and thosebrands. E were fantastic for me to sort of like get my bearing and marketingbecause they were the sort of Apitomize, at least on the BMW side, like what itmeans to have like brand integrity and really how to take the dollars. Youspend and make sure that you have like massive exposure so anyway, I learnedtoy quickly about branding at a very high level and I did the same Wan. Iwas at Master Card. We did the two thousand and six World Cup, so that waslike a massive undertaking. It was a hundred ifinter Er shoccer backgroundthat must have been. That was amazing. It was amazing, and you know I am forpart of that. I my boss and menstorm,...

...rested Tomico. She was responsible formastercard, spokes people, which was Pele, so I for two years worked with myidol because Orof Globe trotting with him for the World Cup appearances- andyou know I can remember you- know- saying a late night with him watchingthe World Cup games and we were kicking the soccer ball in the hallway of likea four seasons in like Mexicyou know I w s just like that is an incrediblememory. That's a they ide out T it was sort of surreal and such a wonderfultime in my life, but you know like sooming out from there. I said likethis was great, but I really enjoyed about the marketing was like howcreative you know. I love everything about marketing and that was afantastic perience on the beat fb on the BDC side. Excuse me, but I said youknow the consumer brands like it's great to like work in big corporateconsumer brands. I said, but, like you know, I'm really I really enjoy it liketack. You know I its booming. I really want to get into this, but I went backto business school so that I could tor learn the fundamentals t you know torlevel, ut my business acument and make sure that I could at least have a seatat the table if I were to take a job n start up in tack, and so after that Itook my first job at time, link which is like the most boring technology inthe world. Time and attendance is like you a to talk about technology. That'slike that! Really that fun de market, it's that but tesio had modestexpectations. He said, like four million we want to go to like eight andI said well I'll, you know take a chance on me. I would be to seemarketing background, but you know I will dig in and I will make sure that Ican help throw this business and we did that in three years we got sold toCronos and then I went to Flua. I actually had a sort of a missstep atLoa. It was a series a company and for someone like me, wo was a little hardto sort of work within the budget. CONTRAANCE AF series a what does hewould do or did they do so? It's a workforce communication technologyright now they specialize in healthcare. So at the time they were servicing manyindustries. I think that they've THEYV pitit and been specific healthcare. Butin any case I one of my colleagues that I had left time. Lingwith was at sale,throw and she said, like whell they're looking for marketers, so that I wentto sale throat and I was sort of had of growth. The day I was hired, the CMOwas, let go, and so I sort of walked into this tefacto like head ofmarketing roll there. I had fantastic colleagues on the saile through sideand it was there a little under two years before signpost before openvewhad reached out to me, which is one of sign post investors and I've been hereabout three years. I love the story and by the way, don't worry about misstepsI've made more than my fartur. It's easy to do. You know you think, basedon all the you know, the conversations you have before you take a you know.Another role, you think you'd have vetted everything, but you know there'ssynamics and any business that makes it just something that may not be a matchso yeah and the other part of it is that the really the more senior you are,the more you really division, your vision, alignment with the founder, Asiand sink because it just can't work. If you see the world differently than thefounder and your part of the executive team at just do immediately get out oflinement absolutely ands. You know that one other point might I'd make on thefounder piece of it. You know my current Co todayto he's a first in yeahto wall, he's fantastic he's, one of the smartest people I've ever met andI've learned in the three years the amount I've learned has been absolutelyincredible. I have him to thank for that, but he is a first time. Foundorto there is a difference. I think- and you know, working with first timefounders and working with somebody that's more seasoned. I think thatthose you know more seasoned cos. Who've done this like multiple timesjust have different perspectives, and I haven't yet worked with a founder thatisn't first time. So I think hopefully- and you know the next set of roles Itake in my career- I'd- be interested to see. Perhaps what that was like.That's really interesting. I guess a lot of us is spend a lot of time withfirst time founders. I think the thing that comes- I don't know if you agreeor disegree, but it's funny, because the more senior folks are much looserin some ways, in the sense that they're much more comfortable delegatingbecause they have, they know what they know and they know what they don't knowand aren't good at and don't have any...

...anxiety about that. They don't feel anypressure to be great at everything they understand yeah. This is the thing I'mgonna I'm going to hire great people and let them do their absolutelyabsolutely. I you know having not worked with someone who isn't a firsttime founder. I can imagine, though, that for a founder a first time founderthat those things are really hard to do like relinguishe control, because it'syour baby and yeah, you know you've been you turning Etos exactlyand. Thelast point is probably that you know if you're Super Young Sto actually has alot of experience at this point, but other first timers that I've workedwith their little self conscious. You know, because maybe they're wonderingshould I be in this role in the first place, and so they sometimes feel theyneed to to overcompensate. Absolutely I mean it's natural, like I don't it'sono fault of their own. I just think that that's really this thing that theysuffer from sometimes like they can't get out of their own way, but you knowin any case he is fantastic and you know he's been wonderful sort ofmentororse yeah and you guys have got built that business to a place that youknow from my perspective once you're past twenty million- that's I guess,Jason Lunkin or Aaron Ross or somebody says that anything past a million isineffitable to get to a hundred, which is absolutely insanity. But myperspective is that really the period north of ten from ten to twenty is thehardest part of Skat Art, I've Seen Ten to twenty twice sale, thorow N and signpost, but there is part of Te youknow beyond signpost. What does tsenty toforty look like as a marketer and Anyou know like do the tactics change? Whatdo the amestments look like? Those are? Are Very, you know, interesting sort ofconcepts for me. It's I mi move ouward yeah. You know, I think I know howtalented you are. I don't think it's my experience in life is that does theproduct market fit is going to pull you along and you're, not going to get lessintelligent as you go O Tsan y forty, I hope not, but yeah. That's sort of mythought about that too, that you know you don't lose your ability to thinkabout how to make investments in marketing efforts that are workingright. You know you just keep dumping the money into the channel. That'smaking you the more the most money having an eye for that is is reallysomething that doesn't change, but I agree some of there's investors outthere that are always going to you know, because it's especially prominent in myrole where they're saying well, we need you know, you're the zero to thirtyCrothirtyo hundred from Oracle or sales force and, like I'm, not sure thosepeople are going to have the intensity, that's necessary, sometimes to keeppushing this business for, but I totally agree it totally. Agreat, somoving away from a somewhat controversial topic to a lesscontroversial topic. You know a lot of people have a different point of viewon what the word marketing means and a lot of people don't know what it meansand twenty years ago I think there was even less information or education inthe market and people basically assumed it's branding. You know it's, you makethe brochures and your in charge of the website and you do the you know thelaborious logo redesign. What do you think Marketing Mans Yeah? It's a greatquestion D. I think marketing isynonymous with revenue. I viewmarketing as a service ORG to revenue the revenue team, which would be yours,myther Cros, like my job, is to make sure that your teams are set up forsuccess. In terms of like how do you find the accounts, you should beworking and then how do you go sell into those in most efficient manner?There are many disciplines to marketing, which is why sometimes people likeconflect what the job is or really have this like nebulous understanding oflike marketing. But for my perspective, there's probably about sevendisciplines in marketing but brand is something that always evolves anditerates. As you grow, I mean unless your product is, you know even BMWright. They have the most, in my opinion, like fantastic braamguidelines on the planet and they're very strict about those, and so there'ssome things that you know you drive a stake in the ground with BMW hasn'tgote through a rebrandon and many many years. But if you're a company likesign, post or you'R, you know you're in a startup, the product is likely goingto change more frequently than Bwis, and so, for my experience, right, likeyou have to keep brand, is like this...

...iterative living breathing thing andbrand. Just very simply is like what you say you are like. How do you speaklike what is the message in the tone and h ethos of the brand and then thedesign which is like how you look so those two components make up the brandand you constantly work on those we went through rebrand at sign post,mainly because I wanted to cotify some of those things that are Morfarbusiness and we had many many many different iterations of design postbrands here, like different color Paletes, like things were really allover the place. So I said like: Let's pull this together, because I do thinkthat those are important and foundationall. I do not consider myselfa brand marketer, though I don't. I can't come to you with some eloquentcopy. That's you know going to like blow your mind and forwards. I workwith an agency on that and I was very happy with the agency that I picure therebrand, but brand is something that lives on always beyond that. There arejust a court disciplines which is like content, marketing, digital marketing,product marketing, customer market. You know there's many disciplinesunderneath that, and so it just, I think long in the short of this is thatas a marketer, that the job is really to just ruthlessly prioritize likewhere you spend time to drive the most rabbit out and put people good peoplearound you that are better than you and any one of those areas, and I had thebenefit of like working really hard as a marketer, getting my hands reallydirty for many many years. So I know how to do all of these. I just now amable and eforded the like luxury of getting good people to do them betterthan I could so yeah one quick question for my own edification. You wentthrough a rebrand Oult I. What is that? I know what it means, but yeah, butwhat does it mean? So you know how long was it? How time intensive? I guess theoutput was a bunch of different things, Yep and how involved was the agency I'mjust curious on the overall process, because I think a lot of founders outthere frankly have a point of threwe're all wondering like how do you codifyinOur totallike brand through deliverables and throughout, buttotally so I am Varry left brain marketer. I think my strength, Ike, Isaid, is demand Gon, and so the brand piece for me is actually a little bitharder. I need help there and that for me, so that men and agency, so I wentthrough a very, very rigorous agency process where I wrote an RFP and I justbasically said like okay, what are the things that are important to us? Weneed a cotify, our message. We need somebody to help us really communicatewhat it is we do and not in a way that just says like we're marketingautomation. That was a goal. It was. The ethos of the project was to saylike speak to people, and so that was part of the RFP. Is the message andalso the design. Now, for us, we had a product UX that we needed to Redoanyway, because the actual product didn't communicate all the value thatMaa drives, which is our AI. So I said like look: If we're really going to dothis right, I can't be in some marketing silo and just developing anew logo, a color palate and dimension to the brand without a product that wefeel good about. So ours was too part. We had the agency work on productDashboard, which delivered, which is on our site today, that helped feed thetone and the style of the actual brand to and the process was about. Ten weeksI was like Ruth once we selected the agency was ruthless about taking themthrough a ten week process. They want that done too. So we were like verystrict about our timelanes. We had weekly checkens with the CO, but I haddaily Checkins with them on the process and the deliverabale from that. I wasvery clear about. I wanted new messaging, which I wanted delivered ina deck which could be communicated and mission vision, values, and then Iwanted them to take that, and I wanted them to give me four pages of ourwebsite, which included copywriting. So they did all that they delivered adashboard. They deliver brandand style guide with, like all the stuff that yousee on signpost today, which is sort of like these ten lines, a new logo andthe site for ten weeks and for a hundred thousand dollars. That was aheavier investment than we wanted to make. But if you think about how hebroke out the project fiftythousand wou spend on product UX and design, whichis actually pretty inexpensive and fifty thousand was spend on themarketing rebrand, which is by itself...

...pretty inexpensive to go througheverything we did. They gave you style, guide and sort of brand guidelines toproduct team, maybe a third of the way through so that you know Xamax couldevolve in conjunction with you know, their slashpagero design and stuff likethat. Exactly and the CEO and the head of product- and I we met that- was likea a three legged stool because one it's the vision of the C, which is importantfom my perspective right. I have opinions, but this is his baby and somy job is. I really felt like the facilitator and that's why I'm okay,with not being the one who needs to copyright a website or who has allthese like magical thoughts about what I think the brand should look like as,frankly, it's not up to me it's him. So that's what I did and he was very, verysatisfii thing as very happy. We 're. Actually you know we're going throughanother messaging project today because it changes a lot. You know his visionfor where worth every day, not every day but, like you know, once a quarter,you kind of like revisit what the product is doing and say like. Okay,are we still matched up to the message and actually that's changing a littlebit? So that's sorry, very long, winded, it's important because there's so muchyou know in podcast land and thought leader land. You get a lot of highlevel bullshit sometimes, but now we I mean that's an important, that's theWeit. I have a playboock on it too. That I would share. I mean you know myjob is like bring that playbook with me. where I go, I would be anybody needingthat I'd be happy to share, like even the agency lists in New York, andthings like that. I think Ih've, a very good like folder stuff salon, you'reawesome. Thank you. There's a part of marketing that everybody talks about.Everybody wants demand generation, the funny Ah Hilarious, depressing thing:I've seen people, nobody knows what it means, they all say. Okay, I want eTiman Generation Manager, they hire that person and then they give themabout two weeks and then they say well whares the money it takes a littlelonger than that. Tell us about your thoughts on Timan Generation, becauseI've learned a lot of my perspective for MOU would be great for you to shareyour perspective. Sure it's funny that you put all those adjectives togetherwhich is like hilarious and and like Qorifying, and it is like actually allthis things I mean simply demandgan. It is just how do you generate interest inthe product? From my perspective, there's two ways to do that: you canpush their information to somebody. That's more of the. I don't want tocall it brand awareness, but that's how you like sort of disrupt a buyingcycles by pushing your information. That's why email is a channel that it'smost often used because you're trying to just get your information out there,but that's push right like they didn't come to you. They weren't making asearch for it. They just said like we said we think we've identified you as aneed for this. The method I like better, which actually works very well on thesnbside, is the Paul hub spot made a big deal about inbound a long time ago.So it's not a new concept but frankly, like the the buying motion is a muchmore highly converting channel when they've come to you when you've sendsomething out there in the world and then they've raised their hand and said,like Oh yeah. This is something I'm interested in reading about that's amore highly qualified lead, obviously than like a cold call or a linkedinconnection. Those demand Gent efforts. So today, as an example, this may beless irrelevant to those selling into enterprise, but ill speak to ouradwards for SNB. Right now we have a whole demand, Gen team, which is ahundred people cold, calling on the phone they are disrupting buying cyclesin their posi. It's super interesting that you called the SDR as a demand Genteam, because your point you view activities of getting people interestedin the product to be a marketing function. I do definitely I mean Ithink about it. That way. If yhou sales is like the person who's able to takethe interest then and go cultivate a relationship and get the deal done.That's a skill sat. I rely on you for I phone, I think I'd be the worstsalesperson, I'm a planet, but I happy to give you guys. You know byaps orconversations but yeah. I all that's demand Gon and then on the inbounddemand Geni. I love like when you can get people coming to you raising rtheir hand, because they're interested those are going to convert much morehighly, that anybody you've bludgeoned...

...over the headw. We called calls andemails. You know like you, can have the most magical drip campaign on theplanet, but, like you know, if somebody's not ready to buy- and theydon't see, you know they can't immediately see the value they'rdeleting your emails. But that's why content marketing survace such a likeimportant discipline, bause, it's the very highest part of the demand Jon arelike, is what did you put out there in the world that hold somebody into yourfunnel and the middle of the funnel? Then that's when the product marketercomes in because okay they're ik now generally interested in what yourproduct like the problem which the content marketers shoulself for andthen the product marketing should say like okay, this is actually thesolution that fixes it and then the customer markgetting Pieceis like okay.These are all the customers that are using it that are like kicking, butthat these people in the funnel should now know about. So I sort of see thatas like how that group of tasks plays into the demand jet so yeah and you'rementioning adwords. What were you? Gonna bout tells about differentproductive channels, yes to get leads, because that's what everybody wants. Iknow right so adwards works incredibly well for us on the assidbside less. Sowhen I was at sale through when we were, I mean, if you're a good cmo. You havea general idea of the technologies that were out there in the world. So I'll.Just give you an example like Edwards did work at Selthoren and Frankl. Ican't speak to what it wat it's doing now it did drive pipeline. It's rare,though, that a Cmo of like Ja, crow, is googling like which email serviceprovider should I use, I mean fuck. You know, excuse me, but if you're the head,if you're the head, AF marketing at J, crow and you're googling, what emailservice provider should I use, I mean again, maybe it's people doing researchand just trying to see whatit's out there, but that's far less likely,you're, hopefully more up dispute on that, because you have a team of peopleinvested in like responsis or a Saltrou or whatever. So we found that you knowthat work. Just you know different kinds of pipeline. Where is actuallybeing generated from that those efforts on the smbside. There are localbusiness owners that actually have no idea how to market or email marketer orthey have like Bain point. They Act act like I don't want to say, they're all,not technologically sophisticated, but the goal of them owning a business.Wasn't like what technologies can I use to get this job do matter? It's like. Ihave a customer base. I need to make happy my cousin owns, terracare orlandscaping. Company he's worried about like plowing he's not like do I need toCrm, but in his painpoints when he does have a problem, he says like how do Iemail market, he searches for things that are like problems for him. If thatmakes sense, and that's when that channel for us on the local businessside becomes very important, very powerful because we show up, we feel avery specific need for that specific search and we get them right to a saleteam and the sale seem closes them so top to bottom. That conversion channelfor us is five percent wow. That's very good yeah! It's good in terms ofconversioary ind, the LTV to cack on that is about two. Now some peoplewould say, like Noas, think about the market. You know we close a lot ofthose every dollar we put in. We get two bucks out and we close lots of thethe top line revenue grows and we still met better than we would have withoutit. But the enerprise side, though right like if you're not at like threeto five forget it when you say five percent, is it from the form film afterthe the Ad Click? Yes, so from lead to close yeah after the form Ti at's, sogood, that's so very good! Yeah and, like I said, the metric we care aboutis LTV do cack. So I I look at actually the funnal conversion rate to thinkthat matters for the business is LTV to cack. You know, obviously the samewould go you kow S, true for any business. So if you moll av toenterprise the LTV docack matters now the LTV on enterprise deals is so highthat you can afford to bring your marketing packup. That's why you coulddo an event for like fifteen osand dollars, which I love for theEnterprise Right Handdan combat those people are there because they like Nadfor theire doing their research. At least you know Mwe Gad, a trade showlike they flew all the way to wherever to get to the exhibit Holl, where theyknow they're going to get pommelled and emaild till the end of time. But if youhave a meantingful conversation with them there, the likelohead of thatclote is also going to be very high and...

...you'll pay that off more than Fiveax itmight A. I agree, do you like Trad Shows Sam, I mean, do you go when yougo? Are you like? This is meaningful? It is the age old question and thereason is theadrold. Question is because a lot of the times, if you'regoing to sponsor a show, the booth cost is going to compare to hiring to SDRs,probably at least for the frest year. So from that perspective, I don't LoveThem. I like them. When we can speak at them. You know and like the CEO can beon a panel or we can be invested more than just writing a huge check to theorganizer and then there's certain shows that I feel sort of obligated tobe at and then the final thought is I like hijacking them. You know, which isthe Mark Benning off thing of I'll. Just do a dinner around the trade showI'm not going to go to the show, but to your point it's a bunch of people thathave expressly raised their hand and said this is a category where I havepain and interest. So let me find a way to entice them with some kind of eventor some kind of gathering yeah. I agree with you, I mean when you can hijackthem. You should, but you know, I'd sail through. We had a consistentpresence with etail because we sold specifically to e coverse retail, whichis like literally their whole base. So we spent to make sure that we werefront of that group more frequently, so they felt like we were trusted partnerbecause we were competing against some of the like legacy tax. Like you knowresponses, and he had to win the business and the you know we felt likethe more we could get in front of them with that consistent presence that wewould make them feel like. Okay, the when I was a live stream, we wouldspend tha. It's to your point. You know you just got to have a solid point ofview on your unit economics yeah. That will inform how comfortable you feel,because you know when we were a live tream we would spend. I mean close toseven figures to go to the show nab in a National Association of broadcastersand the problem with that was that the deal sizes were so tiny. You know, andit was such a big show, we'd scan fivethousand leads. I didn't have agood framework for figuring out what to do with those leads in the right way.The other thing I'll say last thing about trade shows is I often feel likeit's a snake eating a pig, it's very hard to digest a batch of like athousand lads that you can to show all at once. There's no natural way. I'dmuch rather prefer, frankly, a thousand leas to over the course of six weekswhere I've got like a workflow and emotion set up to handle each lead inthe proper way, otherwise it' just very a lot false through the cracks yeah youget like completely saturated with the leads and it's hard to know likequalified I'm on the base on that events is one one channel digitalisgetting very good now at sort of rounding out your like Omni ChannelExperience, because you gave very precise and targeting either acountsour contacts, because with facebook and Linkedin in particular, you can do anexact email match in either one of those systems where you're like okay. Ihave this person'semail in some cases and I would say forty percent of thetime. That's been my experience. You can do an exact email match, becausesome people don't use their work. Emoul mean some people don't use ar workingemail for facebook, a lot don't yeah and the same is ture with linked in. Soit's very unlikely. You have their personal email, but you can get verycreative with how you try to find these people in both digital channels, and inthat case you are pushing your information in front of them, but theydo come in as inbound ONC. They raise our hand which I like that that'sautomatically like self selecting and those are better ways for me to getleaves to the sales work. So they're, not sifting through, like you said,like the crazy amounts of unqualified. So that's on the digital side. There'sanother channel that I really love, which we haven't invested too much inhere, because we were not. We haven't gone up market, but that's affiliate.I'm not sure what your perspective is on this, though Seei'm like I give youan example like e marketer right lots of see UF like if you want to reach aCmo, you can probably assume that the CMOS have on some distributionlists foremarketer and also for cmocom. Those are like affiliates. You just pay toget access to these people and then again, like you, do an email blast withthem and then once the blast goes out,...

...you collect all the the n mountains. Wedid a forester Webenor, so forester we paid forester for Webanr. It was asignificant Vatyou. Rated by you know, are you in like one of their quadronsbefore you get the Web Ow? Okay, which is why I did it. This is myrecommendation to anybody and enterprise who thinks that they needanalyst. Relations is to o get your name on the map, it's sort of pay toplay, but you do get your name on the map. You get the forester briefings.They Osten to your co, talk about what the technology is and then the CO andthe forest or analyst, and we actually had a customer all do a joint Webenartogether it was really powerful and then we took that Webanar and I gave itto business insider and I said like go bloss this out. You know we got fourhundred and fifty people to give us their information to access theinformation. So that means it's exactly the person we want. It may not be theaccounts we want, but the function is there and separately. They came in hishandriser, so like they're at least warmer, so maybe they' have connectionsor whatever. So there are many creative ways to generate demand, but there isno exact science at first. You know it's Aurt and thinking about where youwant to go, spend a little bit of money to test and then, like I said once youknow you just double down: Yeah, absolutely and and you've often said tome tha, your headed demandon is a hedge fun portfolio manager, figuring outwhat stocks to buy totally I mean I that's like the best analogy I coulddraw, because you know that's what you do like you know. The business is goingto give you cash and the job is to go figure out how to get more cash fromthat cash. So it's IFORE. We almost erewordinaring the end of our timetogether, but I want to close out what's your number one sort ofrecommendation when CEOS or companies are thinking about demand generation orinitiating that function, do you have one or two insights to help a firsttime founder? That's thinking about hiring a marketer how to frame or thinkabout imand generation investment. I would say you know not to go to senioron the higher. I mean that may be intuitive, but generally, if you canget a doer to help think about the CEO is likely the person who may have thebest intuition about where to find the people he's selling to I wants to sellthe product to you can test small amounts of money with like a good,smart doer. First to just get like a general, I mean it depends on how smallright I mean we tested small amounts of money. When I came here to find theanswers to that and then we'd park the money, it doesn't need to be some crazy,like massive heavy lift and all these analyses and if you're willing to spendten HSAND dollars to test across four or five channels. That should probablydo it. But you know you have to commit some money and just some time sothere's no magic bullet. I think on the demand Gon, but I think people get veryscared about it and then they think that they have to go on some search onLinkedon for like the best dimandgen person in the city, and that may not bethe case yeah and also by the way those people are. You are a rare breed,there's not many great demension people, so you going to have to roll up yoursleeves, your hands dirty. Yes, exactly always the pay it forward. Part of ourconversation. So one thing we like to know is: What's in your text ack, youknow one or two tools that you think other people should know about, andwhat do they do for you? This is going to be awful, but Marqetto is our sortof clutch. You know marketing on Amation, probably obvious. I lovegekoboard. I have many different sources. Feeding me data aogod. It'samazing! It's like a hundred bucks a month. Basically it's a Bi tool. I meanagain Lik. It doesn't actually do any of them marketing for you, but it getsme a good insights for where I should be turning Lebbers. It's a Bi that justintegrates all your different technology, so like Edwards, is feedinginto geccoboard. Marcetto is feding in to get a word sales horse Weev en togauboard. So the text I do have- and I have a very lean, textsack marcettobeing like the most important one, but the other information I do have comefeeding in Tigaca board and it just one stop shop. I get the apt on my phone. Ican have the DASH forward int. It gives me all the intormation awesome. Okay,Great, I'm moving out of order from our script here, but advice forspecifically women. You know we're in a...

...diversity moment so as a successful,powerful technology executive. That is also a woman. Any advice or thoughtsabout how they should manage their careers to get to where you are yeah. Ithink this is an incredibly important topic, obviously, with TOR recentdevelopments across every industry, it's becoming even more acute. I wouldsay, though, that I've tried to operate from a place of results for my career.I've worked hard. I put my head down. I sadly may have been oblivious toanybody who is treating me differently because I'm female, but I know itexists, and I think the advice for me in this situation is to just let yourresults speak for themselves and like really let it guide you forward. Sowhen you're, given a task or when you're in a room, you need to make surethat you are standing behind the work you're doing with like really good data.So that's been sort of the thing. I think that has kept me moving forwardthat it hasn't been about gender, even though I do know it's a problem forsome or for many that my guiding light has been just kick ta mass and then,hopefully, that those things can kind of fall out of your way. Yeah. It'sgood advice, thank you, favorite other exact, fpcos sales or CMS, or view Peceof marketing that we all should know about sure. So you know you mentionedim earlier. BITDAVE GOVIN was a fantastic partner itself through JohnPedel, really smart headof sales Bradkim. He was our svp of bd. Here youof course Sam. I know we frequently go back and forth because you're mypartner on the other side, so you're, the guy that generating all the revenue.I need to know like where your pain points are as an example. The cros arevery important for me and then the two marketers Nick Chrismin he's inamlyYeah Super Super Smart, Nice Guy and Kyllacy. He and I work together when hewas BP marketing an open view, he's a VPA marketing now at Lessonley. Wefrequently both of these guys have shared just our best practices, and youknow they're doing every day, like those are the people that are helpfulto me. Just as practitioners like I miy. Definitely don't do this or do this.Those are good conversations and to your point about hiring an up and comernick, I think when he joined, namely, I don't think he had a lot of marketingExperto, but he's made himself an amazing marketer. Is He smart and he'slike a doer heeeds a go, Gett her and now he's just crushing it and I'm youknow, I'm happy to know him and he's Ou k, O good guy cool, any other sort ofinvestors or people that that are inspirational for you that that youthink we should know about before sign post. I think you know the I hadn't hada lot of investor relations before coming to signpost, but- and I know tomention someone I might I make her for it- is the ones on my curn board- arefantastic people like Tyson Barber, Justin, Laffiett, Tad dagers, AdamMarcus, like those are from spark Jordan and openview. They have all beenfantastic. You know when you present to the board, you want to know theirthoughts. These are really smart, guys not like. Why isn't this going theright way, but like okay but t? What is your perspective on how we might make achange of all the fantastic and like helping to guide that conversation,which I found very very helpful so there, on the top of my list, awesomelast question: for You, first of all, you're. An mad three fan. Is that right:Yeah? U TAST E MUSIC! I don't think it's thatweird! I just didn't. I don't. Is it road blaster, an album or a song? It'sa song that you know they like do all the thes, like e songs, remake go okay!That's like the most adies I've found, so I'm goingto listen to it thisafternoon and then your favorite book movie or podcast. My favorite book isDarwins Dout. I love reading the different views between sort of likereligion and atheism and like the how the sciences converge. So that's mylatest ont it's wery difficult to get through. It's whater e. does it's aboutintelligent design? You know like the concept that how could we have evolved,even though that that's my point of view? How could we have evolved? Theway we were designed is too intelligent for evolution, and but I like thecompeting views because obviously ihave...

...one very strong point of view. This issort of another pov and very interesting. It's dense, but it's veryinteresting, a blind watchmakeris another one, that's another one, that'sintense! I think the people that don't believe in evolution will have evenmore trouble when they do more reading and come up with the theor realize thetheories of that life came from Mars was like there was Mitocondria and likesingle, sell organisms on these astrais that hit the earth in anyway. No A ohI'll. Look that up what you Actua? U, by the way, I'm interested I'll tellyou what I'm reading now my favorite book over all is tender is the night,but that's because I'm a depressive person a like tragedy from a marketingperspective. I just read: Play Bigger: Do you know that book now, no I'll puton my list? It's all about category design, which is very similar to whatyou know what you're talking about and now and then the other book that I readrecently is a Bendin the river which is about Africa in the s by CS Nipaul, Bu.Okay, that's because I'm not always reading business books, which Iencourage other people to exactly. If people want to get in touch with you,do you have a preferred channel? Are you open to people reaching out to you?Yes, definitely linked in or you can you send me an email in parent sign,Post Akl at Sinposcom, awesome, Andrea! Thank you! So much for joiningthe sales, Hacker, podcast and you've been always insideful. Congratulationsand all success at sign, post and and we're going to talk to you soon. Thankyou, Andrer all right, Sam thanks. What a great interview with Andrea thisis Sam's corner a couple thoughts from Andrews interview. She shared so muchinsight. First of all, she very specifically gave us a framework for arebrand, so if you're company thinking about going through that process, thereare specific details. Ten week process, the outputs were four pages for thewebsite. Where the agency wrote the copy. It was a partnership with productso that the product exemplified and represented the brand. The agency got ahundred thousand dollars. Andrews got references for us if we need them. Sothat's a very specific thing, because I'm always thinking about brand and howto manage it and what the investment is worth relative to agency partners, tthat we might use at different organizations that I'm working for andthen the second thing that she mentioned, which she's very focused onis ltb Kak. Obviously, when you're thinking about demand generation, youneed to be thinking about the lifetime ti as a customer and how much it coststo acquire them. I will add, however, that LTV can be a very misleadingmetric if your capital constrained, because especially at very low numbers,if you're not seeing that money come back, it may be that there's areasonable lifetime value reasonable. But if you're spending a tremendousamount of money to acquire the customer because you're under pressure to grow-and it's going to take you a long time to get the money back, that's going toimpose e, very significant capital instraints in the business you've gotto think about your balance sheet. So that's why those ractios are soimportant, because if your Hav anything below realy three to une, if you're attwo to one or one and a half to one you're, getting paid back, that's true,but you're getting paid back over the life of a customer which maybe years,and so you got to really think about making sure you have the capitalrelative to the LTVDO CAC Racius that you can scale. This has been Sam'scorner thanks. So much for listening to check out the show, notes, seeupcoming guests and play more episodes from our incredible lineup of salesleaders visit sales, hackercom podcast. You can also find the sales hackingpodcast on itunes or Google play or anywhere that you consume your podcasts.If you enjoyed this episode, please share with your peers on linked andtwitter or elsewhere. Special thanks again to this month's sponsors at Gong,see more Gongdot, IO, forsh sales tacker. And finally, if you want to getin touch with me, you can find me on twitter, at Sam f Jacobs or on Linkdonat Lincdoncom, Sah and SAMF JACOBS SEE NEXT TIME.

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