The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

70. The Executive’s Guide to Building Companies w/ Jonathan Sherry

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This week on the Sales Hacker podcast, we speak with Jonathan Sherry, Co-Founder and COO at CB Insights

John has some incredible first-hand experience on how to scale a business, build culture intentionally, and retain the allegiance, alliance, and credibility of the people who work for you.

One, two, one, three, three. Hey everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the saleshacker podcast. We've got a special episode for you today and over the next three weeks, what we're going to be doing is taking some of the interviews that we conducted while we were at a revenue collective off site on a nice little yacht in the middle of Hudson River and and bringing those to the podcast audience. The first one is the president and CO founder of a company called CEB insites, a man named Jonathan Sherry, who's wellknown here in the New York City Tech Community and ecosystem. CB insights is a really interesting company. They've taken one round of capital and that was late in their life, and have funded the business almost entirely from profits and from revenue. I don't believe they've touched a single dollar of the money that they raised. And so they are. They are a company that's sort of grown at a venture scale without venture capital and fused into the business, which makes them, from my perspective, really, really interesting. And Jonathan's got a lot of really interesting thoughts on how to scale a business, how to how to build culture intentionally and how to make sure that you retain the credibility and the alliance and the allegiance of the people that work for you. So it's a great interview. I hope you enjoy it. Now, before we get there, we want to thank our sponsors. We continue to be excited that we've got lucid chart as one of our sponsors. Lucid charts new sales solution is the leading account planning platform for modern sales organizations. With lucid chart you can visually map out key contacts and crucial account data to uncover critical insights that will allow you to close bigger deals faster. So go to lucid chartcom forward sales for more information. And if anybody's ever been involved in any kind of complex in a price sale, you know that mapping out and organizing both the org chart of the company, but also what are their preferences, what are their instincts and what is their power within the organization all requires some kind of visual solution. So lucid chart sale solution is a really great a really good application. There our second sponsors outreach. That's outreached out, I owe, the leading sales engagement platform. As you know, outreach support sales reps by enabling them to humanize communications its scale, from automating the soul sucking manual work that he's upselling time to providing actionary into tips on what communications are working best. Outreach has your back. Now, without further ado, let's listen to my interview with Jonathan Sherry on a boat. So the first conversation we're going to have right now is is with John Sherry. John is the the cofounder and the CEOO, the chief operating officer of CBN sites. While I read is bio, come on up. If you don't know about CB in sites, it's one of the darlings, I think, of the The New York tech ecosystem because of the way that they've grown, which is essentially bootstrapped until they took on some financing that they basically haven't touched, and also leading an incredible culture, an incredible organization and just doing it the way that's inspiring and different. So let me give you his bio. John Sherry is founder and Chief Operating Officer of CB insites, a market intelligence platform that empowers fortune five...

...hundred executives to identify emerging trends, new markets, disruptive threats and competitor strategy. CB In sight is back by the National Science Foundation and bootstrapped to millions in revenue before raising ten million and VC from pilot growth equity. In two thousand and fifteen. Prior to CB insights, John Pioneer the fifty million dollar Chairman's Innovation Fund at American Express. Earlier in his career he worked at Deloit, advising the world's top financial services companies on how to capitalize on emerging technologies. He went to pen and he got his MBA from Columbia. Welcome, John, welcome. Thanks also for the cognitive dissonance. We're also going to be acting as if we're on a podcast as well, so welcome to the sales hacker podcast, John. Glad to be here. For those out there about in the world, we are on a boat right now. There's a room full of revenuence collective members and we're talking to John Sherry, the the cofounder of CB in sits in the chief operating officer. We like to start with the baseball card. So it's John Sherry. It's CB in sights. I just read a little bit of the Biou, but what a CB in sights do? Who Are you? Yes, so CB in sights. I guess what we are now is in AI powered or we're building an aipowered strategy consult at least that's the vision. We grew up really covering data on the venture industry, many of the companies I guess that folks in this room probably work for, and the early vision was just to build a high quality private company the database and sell it back into venture. But as the vision and market evolved we found that the fortune five hundred was probably a better market for us to play. Much bigger, deeper pockets, lots of opportunity for expansion as emerging technology started sort of taking over the world and folks within sort of the fortune five hundred understood they don't want to be the next blockbuster taken over by Netflix. Lots of investment in understanding the emerging trends and how it's going to affect their businesses, and so for us a lot of that timing was right. So we've expanded our data sets to cover anything in regards to emerging technology and primarily do sell into digital transformation, innovation growth within the fortune five hundred and beyond. Folks were thinking about where the business needs to be three, five, ten years down the road versus the business units that are sort of generating revenue today. Sounds exciting. What's the origin of the company? Tell us about how it came to be sure, and also expand on this concept of financing from customers as opposed to from the third party investors, because that's interesting. Sure. Yeah, so I was at American Express and that's actually where I met my cofounder on and we were co leading the fifty million dollar Chairmans Innovation Fund. This was two thousand and eight before the financial shit storm, but I give American Express a lot of credit. They were thinking kind of forward in terms of these innovation groups that are now existing more prominently today within these large organizations. Part of our job was to sort of canvass the market see what was out there. What would be a complimentary maybe business model or company. First, American Express either a choir invest in partner with and as we were doing due diligence on private companies, realized pretty quickly there was only one player in the market at that time. I will spare their...

...name, but it was a a pretty terrible product and the the relationship that venture capital firms had with this product was pretty hostile. It was just the only show in town. We decided we could build a better mousetrap, left American Express and continue to build that and commercialized in two thousand and nine. And that's sort of the upbringing of the company. And so how big is the company now? We're over two hundred and fifty employees. Were somewhere between two fifty two six years and you're on. Are you allowed to give us like a bucket of rr Revenue Range? Yeah, sure, so, just to kind of give you a sense the history, we started the company in two thousand and eight. I wouldn't call it any semblance of a company until maybe two is, two thousand and ten, pretty much a hack of thon. From two thousand and ten to two thousand and thirteen was a grind where there was no predictable sort of semblance of revenue. But in two thousand and thirteen went about a million and a half an a rr tripled that into two thousand and fourteen and then, I guess probably the next big milestone, we had mark Jacobs, who's somewhere in this group. He joined us as SBP, kind of overseeing all revenue. That's sort of changed everything didn't. In Two thousand and sixteen it did. That was really the actually, yeah, he should be up here. Yeah, yeah, it was a toss up between Jacobs. But you know that that year I think we closed around sixteen million a Rre and this year probably going to close somewhere about four x that. So they're you go amazing and you only raise money in two thousand and fifteen and you'd R and you basically didn't didn't need it. was that intentional of all time? How did you? You know you've got other companies, especially over the last ten years in New York, raising very, very large rounds. Probably you know you have to be an incredibly secure, confident person to say we don't have that, we're just going to go at our speed. What was your approach? YEA, hopefully we're not being hopefully not arrogant right. But the the original approach was simple. I mean we wanted to control our own fate. We probably it's easy to sort of say that now. I think in retrospect, it's not like there was a ton of opportunity to raise money in two thousand and eight. During this financial crisis, people at other things to worry about, like is the world ending. But you know, we booststrapped through doing some consulting actually on the credit card industry, which had absolutely nothing to do with the product that we built. You know, by night right by day, we were essentially consulting the hedge funds and generating enough cash to keep the lights on. Got The business out the door and realized we can probably do this through just kind of bootstrapping our way through and we close a customer on CB insights higher another engineer. As long as sort of the lights were staying on, we could feed our families. We felt that we could continue to endure that, and so that's what we did. And I you mentioned the National Science Foundation, which is actually something really important. I don't know, there's probably various stages here. I don't maybe some founders. This is actually like a highly untapped resource. The federal government actually funds companies. I mean you do need a little bit of a social purpose and then you need, you know, the National Science Foundation. I think be people think of lab coats and all those things, but we were doing some work in data science when I guess it was kind of a bit of a novel idea and they were a great partner to us. We raised over a million dollars from them to all told, so I'll include that in the bootstraps. And because it was non dilutive, right, it just basically...

...it basically gets treated as revenue. So that was also something that was kind of a saving grace for us and and something that I think probably more company should look into. It's just not on tech crunch, so people don't know about it. So you've, I'm sure you came in with certain perspectives on leadership and on growing culture. Yeah, and those have evolved. And so walk us through, because I think you've said in the past, you know, don't treat all the advice in the business books. I'm you know, there's twitter. You could just do whatever Nev all right, Kant tells us to do. Yeah, or what's your perspective? He's got a lot of good advice, by the way. But now I guess my perspective. Look, I mean this is going to be really kind of silly and very cliche, but treat people like people and as long as you're doing that you're fine. Look, I didn't actually have much of a leadership philosophy coming into cebing sights. Every day that I come to work. I mean we're a little bit bigger than the day before. So I'm honest, quite honestly, just learning on the job. Didn't have much of a philosophy really as we started to kind of put that first management layer in, probably around tw thousand and two thousand and thirteen, that kind of superseded our founding team. You get thrown into it very quickly in terms of you better learned in dog years how to manage, because that's going to be like your first disappointment. Right because folks of the founding team, for better or worse, more for worse, folks see success in career as kind of growing into leadership positions and that's simply not always the best case. And so I think the the the one thing I would say. You don't want to overoptimize for this too early, but you want to really think about what are the career tracks for the people that you want to retain. Some people are going to grow up into leadership, but you better think about what those career tracks look like for the people you want to invest in who simply aren't going to be looking or seeking or interested in, or good at management leadership positions. And that's something that we learned probably a little bit too late and, frankly, people endured some tough times as a result. But that's doing some tough times because you put top performing individual. Yeah, absolutely too man happen rolls exactly absolutely and and you know, it's not like we've had a anything calamitous happened as a result, but you do lose good people when you kind of promote them into something quickly that you want them to succeed at, and then it ultimately can be a little bit difficult and doing the turnaround thing is pretty tough. You know, kind of backtracking from that. It's sometimes can be hit to the EGO, it could be humiliating. Honestly, it's none of the above as far as I'm concerned. It's just like hey, we made a mistake, let's just change course. But I can understand to the individual why that would be tough. And I actually have one individual came to mind who really gracefully, he did go that route and gracefully sort of stepped around and he's like one of our one of our earliest employees, and just lights out at what he does now and like when you find people like that that's amazing. But it is rare. What have you learned about managing executive? You know, you've brought, yeah, marks come into the organization. No, but it's a you know, no, not the founder. They have their own perspectives, their own ideas about to do things. Yeah, that can be challenging. I think it look yes, that was another sort of strange time in the company,...

...at least for myself. I think around two thousand and fifteen mark was probably kind of like the first exist like real executive. We hired and we hired it. You know, a couple others as well right around the same time. But my intent from day one on doing that was simply to kind of put myself out of that job. Right, and if you come in with that mentality, let them take over. You're simply just going to have to defer to them on topics that they know better than you do. And so but yeah, it's certainly weird when you kind of wake up one day and you're like, okay, I'm managing people who are simply a lot more experience than better at doing these things than I am. So honestly, like, for the most part, I kind of you. My job is simply getting these pieces to kind of work together. It is not my intent to kind of own these things. I want to find and carve out what I'm specifically good at, but anything else, I mean that is why we sort of bring in the executives like mark to do that. So I'm going to ask you a question that's not on our sheet. I'm interested in forecasting and rehetor growth. Yeah, and your perspective on targets? You don't have you know, I get the impression. Yes, pilot growth equity interested in the business. I get the impression they don't have a I get that their seat at the board Rice is hard board. Our board meetings are pretty light. Right, exactly. You don't. You haven't seated control of the company, and so there's no you don't have to get to a hundred million in revenue. I don't have to do anything in particular. Yeah, how do you approach forecasting and Revenue Growth Year over year and how do you work with the finance team and the sales team or the revenue team to make sure that it's a number that is attainable? Or do you not believe that it should be attainable? What's your philosophy? Yeah, I mean, look, I think that you can't make it not attainable, because then that's just going to everything starts with kind of a number and then from there you build down your complans and your goals. And so if you build things, you want to build aggressive but you don't want to bring unattainable to the party because then you lose credibility. People aren't making money and that's no good for anybody. Yeah, I mean putting aside the board thing. Look, when we did take investment, one great thing was we actually started setting targets right like. Honestly, before that it was just like thinking month to month. Can we just can we get to a million dollars a month? Can we break last months sort of number? And then we started to think a little bit about, you know, more long term, at least for a long term for us, was thinking quarterly, but really annually and going through the rigger of a budgeting process. The timing on that was very good because the team was kind of expanding quite a bit at that time and you know, in retrospect, had we not started doing that, you can lose track your expenses and and and then things kind of it becomes a fire cell and that's no good, look it. We're not. It's not like the board is imposing its will in terms of trying to get us to go after aggressive growth targets. But we're we're ambitious. Mean we want to set targets that we think that we can exceed. And so, yeah, I mean we look at things two ways, right. Number one is, of course, you benchmark the market and you look at what a company our stage should be doing based on kind of historical performance of other companies who have gone on and succeeded. Number two, you kind of look at reality, right. So that's kind of like, the...

...top down, we want to hit this number. Then you have to look at the reality in the bottoms up, and it's that's very models driven, right, you can. We have a funnel model that is completely geeked out and has evolved over time. That ment. We just literally really happy to hear that. What's that? A funnel model as opposed I see. Yeah, tell me if I'm interpreting this quickly. Most companies it's a head count driven revenue model. Yes, so, okay's sounds like you're doing it the right yes, it's so. Yeah, I mean one of the things about CEB in sights is early on when we when we had no money, certainly didn't have the I mentioned. There's a brand that we were going after. We thought we had a better product, but we very quickly and naively realized that no one's going to buy our product, isn't want to heard of us. So we started generating content right we had dad on the venture industry. We got that data out there. We built direct relationships with journalists because we certainly didn't have money to pay for a PR company and they were sort of our megaphone to get that stuff out there. All that we asked linked to us. We'll give you good data, will give you good storylines. Just linked us and that's what happened, and then the lead started coming in. So really until, I would say, you know, through two thousand and seventeen, the vast majority of our revenue was coming through some kind of inbound source, which is obviously wonderful. Its scales well, you don't have to hire as many SDRs to handle it. It's a much less hostile way to sell into your customer, and so that was that was wonderful. But you know, over time you don't want to completely ignore the other side of things, which is your outbound strs, and I would say, just to kind of go on, that it's you know, when we started hiring outboundstrs, I'll be completely candid with you. You know, all I knew about SDRs was like, Oh, I worked at Yep for two years and I hated it and then I left. Sorry, I hope, hope, YELP US not here. Yep, it's not here, yelp here. Okay, good, here, you know, like it's a prestening. Sure, yeah, exactly, it's it. God, all right, you th I never work there. You fucked that. It's a very yeah, it's a very it's a very churn and burn culture and a lot of SDR teams and honestly, I thought it would be the same thing. Will just hire a bunch of SDRs, will get some inexpensive demos and then when they tire out, we'll get new ones. I was pleasantly surprised to learn that the demos were far, far secondary to what we really got, which was our very best sort of account executives of the future. And I don't mean that to be Corny at all. It's amazing how well that program is functioned in terms of seating talent for the future of our sales team and you must have data. Quicker ramp time, higher quot attainment, all that, all that stuff. Yeah, I mean ramp time is Ooh, is a challenge. One of the challenges for seeing sights in terms of ramp time is we're not we don't fit neatly into a vendor spreadsheet. We're kind of defining our own category and so you know, people aren't always quite just ready to buy right if a lot of times people call around and they call five different vendors, are filling it out and then they're going to choose one. I mean for us we need to really explain what we are prove our value, and so ramp time can still be a challenge, but we certainly do have something figured out because this has been this is consistently shown that, you know, sort of we can continue to scale this. How different? Obviously the one and a half million...

...are are, you know, bootstrapping, probably lots of anxiety figuring things out, but then there's probably a point at maybe ten fifteen. Yeah, and then the question I have is, has it really changed that much? Is whatever sixty million or fifty million or seventy million wherever you are, which is, you know, amazing, is it that? Is it different than twenty million? Do you feel different? Is Your Day different? Are Yes, because there are there's a there's obviously a conversation happening and in startup land about stage appropriate leadership, stage appropriate growth, all that stuff. What's your experience? That's definitely true. I think if you're reading the books right and it says like you have to have this cookie cutter person for this stage, that's a mistake. All right, so great, at least in my experiences. So that that's number one. Let's put that aside. But you do need to be stage appropriate. I will say, at least for me, the number one challenge, and it maybe like my Kryptonite, is a problem. Like, if you give me a problem, I like I could spend all day just solving problems. That is not a good way to sort of prioritize your life, right, because some problems are big and summer small. They're all equal really satisfying to solve, though. So I think you know. So I think that you kind of need to basically prioritize your life. So yes, you do need to be stage appropriate, because when we were twenty people. It was appropriate for me to pretty much have my hands in all the engineering problems down to sort of our entry level engineers, all of our sales problems down to our entry level sales people, so on and so forth. Now, though, I need to lean on our leaders to sort of go and solve those problems. And I'll give you a perfect example. Today. This is probably not, you know, very good for recruiting purposes, but we have we have a hundred forty desks. So we outgrew this is the good part. We outgrew our our main headquarters and then we have a hundred forty desks across the street at a wee work and love we work, and so that's good. Yes, I love we work as well, but the air conditionings out today and it's not a great day, and so I normally I would just be like no, I want to go and yelled someone solve this problem and be the point of communication. But like, we have people who can do that now, and so as long as you can sort of trust yourself to give up. I know that maybe is a silly, small example, but that's actually something that like, was really irking me on the way here. But I know that we have people, you know, to take care of those things. Thank you for your honesty. There you go. You've said, and this is something I've been wanting to ask you. Yeah, you said sort of, in most cases equity compensation can be overrated. Yeah, and yet the reason that a lot of people choose the startup path is this notion that maybe we too will be the junior person that was hired at facebook or Air Bran B or Uber or whatever. Walk US through your perspective. So I think that. So let's not be presumptuous here at least. Would you agree that that people join stars for requity? Do you guys think people join starbs for equity? Is that the main driver or is it like the experience in this and that? Or I think it's I think it's a big driver, but I also think getting to there's a lot of people that get to lead fairly large teams earlier in their career that would not get to do that at a much bigger company. Yep, but yes,...

...there's always this idea that we'll get options. I get questions all the time from from from people saying I got eight thousand, they gave me an offer and there's eight thousand options. Is that good? Is that that good? Yeah, so, Hey, yeah, and I think it's look, I think equity definitely can be overrated. But let's let's back up. I think equity in general is it's the best tool for, you know, long term wealth. Right, we seem to find a way to spend our salaries and stuff like that. So it's obviously the best tool. But I think the issue is that there's a a no one understands the equity I think that's the biggest issue that I've seen right as a founder, whether I'm hiring somebody who's, you know, relatively junior who's receiving equity, or even all the way up to executive level, I just don't think people are asking questions about the equity agreement, despite the fact that it's the most interesting part of the offer to them. Right. So, what is this worth? How many outstanding shares are there in the company? How much money is in the company? What's the preference? Right, preference is probably a lot of you guys know, but it's just the money that's going to get paid out to the investors before everything's left for the team. And then there's a whole you know slew of terms. Should your company go on to be successful, you can be left with massive tax obligations that can lock you into the company for a very long time. And I think people don't they don't ask these questions up front. They don't really. I think they may be thinking about them, but think let's just kick the can down the road, and I think people do themselves a disservice because, you know, you kind of go if it's this is situation where, if it becomes successful, you have a whole another set of problems that you may be anticipated but didn't think about up front. So I think you know, one lesson I think I would say to this group, and it looks like we have a fairly senior group of sales leaders here. Obviously, the the you know, the salary, the variable cash component, is important, but I think you know, go home, get to understand your equity document first, find it, see where it is, because you probably kind of threw it somewhere and you know it's worth understanding and kind of going through with some of your leaders. And I encourage transparency on this thing. I think people should understand, you know, what all the caveats are and and you know what I like to do with employees, either when they're joining or when they're you know, they've been with the company for a while and it's time for a refresher sort of take him through the different scenarios and see what this could be worth one day, because I think people just don't quite understand that kind of stuff and that's why I mean it's overrated. Yeah, now I agree. It makes a lot of sense. Yeah, we want to do some questions. We wanted to qua from the audience. There's a microphone. If anybody wants to ask a question, raise your hand and we will bring you the microphone. If possible. We've got someone right up here in the front. It's just for the recording for yeah, for the recording. Hang on, I don't know if it's on, but there were counting you, guys, and say your name so that the listeners of sales hacker land can know who you are. Well, if you don't...

...know me already, I'm the one that spammed everybody yesterday and a job opportunity. My apologies. First off, I don't know what to do. Ay, you're just sitting on it, Sam. Yeah, Anyway, names Chris, Thomas, run sales in a company called video. We were just recently acquired and I got involved in revenue collective through Fred Mather, who introduced me to Sam and here I am. But the thing that was most curious about was, you know, the inbound versus outbound. Yeah, you know, personally I love the idea of like scale, yeah, through content creation and to manage in that way and it comes in, you qualify it, move it through your pipe and and you know, you all of a sudden there just kind of generating revenue very nicely up, very low cost of sale. Yep, as opposed to then you start going into maybe verticals or you start looking at enterprise sales teams outbound and all of that, and I'm kind of curious what you're taking is as your move through building the organization. I think, yeah, to seventy million, if I did the math right, what's more valuable in your mind? Sure, what makes more sense? All right, so I think I should preface it with the inbound thing. Is Amazing, but I don't think it's a simple as writing a few blog post. This thing that that I mentioned this like trough of sorrow between two thousand and ten and two thousand and thirteen where we like made no money. I mean we were just busy getting our you know, establishing our presenceince trying to drive leads. So it's something that is a pretty big investment and we also uniquely position to do it because we had a bunch of data and we wrote about that data. So that's my number one thing. However, if you have the fortitude to kind of make it through all that, it's obviously a pretty strong way of doing business for the reasons you would mention now. It actually, I think, as far as whether or not you know how it relates to how we develop into an enterprise. You know, organization. Look, I think we've got there's two things I think we've got to at the beginning, it's kind of a jump ball in terms of how you organize your sales teams around these organizations, because there's so much low hanging fruit and as the sales team evolves, verticalization starts to make sense. And, further more, alignment between our account executives and customer success folks, such that they're sort of combined owning the success of a logo rather than having different incent of plans for each is important. And as far as the inbound is concerned, the way we do work our inbound if an account is owned and it comes inbound, it basically goes over to basically the outbound team that owns that and on the in and then not the the inbound team. That is correct, and then the inbound team gets everything else. And and you know, that's that. Everything else is still a you know, we're still we still deem ourselves being small. There's a lot of wood to chop, and so that that everything else, inbound stuff is still pretty there's a lot of low hanging fruit on that as well. And I think the final point I would say is in terms of art inbound strategy, it goes back to our research again. It was just sort of it was very broad based in terms of covering the greater,...

...you know, venture landscape early on. Now we've developed vertical expertise within our research team and now it's, you know, it's kind of like we have a specific strategy for how we're going to go after insurance, a specific strategy about how we're going to go after auto and so, you know, we know how to kind of like turn on the different Fawcetts and go after different sources of where the contents going to play? Any other questions? In the back Scott, announce yourself. Hey, it Scott's homeos from partner Ese, going zero to a hundred, I guess you must have moved a lot of people into very advanced steps along their career path. Do you have a philosophy around that, or is a methodology? How do you lay out career pathing for everyone and right keep everybody in the right in the tent? Yeah, so a not not a hundred yet. But look, that's why I kind of said earlier, the earlier you don't want to overoptimize for these things before you need to but established career paths within each group, right. I mean if it's a small group of three folks, you probably don't need much of a career path. But as your other teams grow, like our sales team is rather large, our commercial teams are large, our engineering team is quite sizeable, our research team is quite sizeable, we were probably late to the game in terms of establishing you know what that career track looks like. So ensuring that the career track is established and everybody knows where they live in it and then understanding people's aspirations and where they want to go on it, and then you, as a leader, probably need to make some tough decisions or discussions if you don't think there's a fit between what their goal is and sort of where you think they'll be strong at. But that's that's on you as a leader to have to be up front about it and those are the tough discussions as a company skills that you have to have. One more question. Hey, Jonathan Sloan, barber, vp of sales at hired. Nice to meet Jack. Thanks, Sam for having us on board. Thanks for coming, Sloane. So you just referenced Auto Insurance. So it sounds like he transition more to an industry segmentation as a go to market strategy. When did you do that and what were some of the tactics you used? hed you switch from sort of you graphic focus and how did that happen and how did you find the right people for those particular industry verticals? So I would say we're right now in the midst of basically making that that sort of transition. So we don't have it all figured out. I think for us, though, geographical segmentation doesn't make a ton of sense. I think it will make a ton of sense as look, we've got quite a bit of international customer coverage at this point and for that right now our strategy is just for people to work funny hours and that's probably not going to scale much longer. We're going to need people working those hours and speaking those native languages and understanding that culture. That's one way, but I think the bigger aspect of our segmentation is simply around a verticalization and it works really naturally for us simply because like that's that verticalization is already happened upstream within our research team and how we market, and so it'll just make natural sense to do so downstream. As...

...far as you know, who will focus on what? We'll just have to figure out again the cross section of experiences and interests among the the a's and CS folks. By the way, we use hired a lot very early. So thanks, thanks, loane. Yeah, we probably still use it, but now we have like are inhouse team. But yeah, cool, now you still use hired. We still use hired. All right, last question. It's going to it's going to come from me. Yeah, you are in the rare fight air of your the cofounder. You started the company. You work with executives. What advice would you give to a room full of executives? You probably have developed a perspective on specifically the executive layer, things that you've seen people do well, things that you haven't seen yet. So I guess it's a few things. One, be really deliberate about creating your culture. Cultures. This really weird thing that it gets asked in every interview. So, for for one, it's I can to do any favors in recruiting if there isn't a good answer that your team can revolve around. So to find that, train people on it and honestly, they will indoctrinated at some point and and it will become your culture. Otherwise it's going to be defined for you through the people that you hire. So be very deliberate about definding your culture. Educate your team, educate, you know, the candidates that you bring on. I think number two, do the job before you hire for it, or find somebody to do the job before you hire for it. I think that too often people rush into creating positions that sound good and then nobody's really done it. You hire for it and then it's just inevitably isn't successful. So figure that out. The number three listen, don't. Don't avoid the the tough conversation. I think things around career development, these things they kind of go to. They just play against human nature, right, because you become friendly with a lot of the people you work with. But you know, in some of the ones, some of the jobs that are numbers based, are easy. Those are the easy ones. Actually it's the ones that aren't. But don't avoid those conversations. People will respect you for it and you know, I found a lot of mutual respect, you know, for people that we had two part ways with that I don't know, maybe I'll work with again in my career and if it ends that way, then you've done something right. So that's that would be my advice. John, thanks so much for being a guest, for being at the off site and on the podcast. Folks out there, may be in this room or somewhere else in the world, want to reach out to is that okay? Do you have a preferred method of communication? How should people reach out? Sure you can reach out to me, Jay Sherry at CB insitescom. JSH ARRY AT CB insidescom. John, thanks so much for being here. We appreciate it. Thanks everybody. It's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to SAM's corner. Hope you enjoyed that interview with John Sherry on a boat in New York. I really like John's approach to building companies. I like the fact that, you know, one of the things he talked about was that it's important that everybody does the job before they find other people to delegate the job,...

...even if it's at the very beginning of an organization. It's just important. I think that if you are a leader, that you have credibility when you're asking someone else to do something. You know. The other way that people tend to put it is that you know you wouldn't want to tell anybody to do something that you wouldn't do themselves. If you're an upandcoming leader or manager, just keep that in mind when you're trying to when you're trying to motivate and encourage your teams. I also think you know, to the point of the conversation, that it's really inspiring and refreshing to hear about companies that grow essentially at a venture rate. You know, when Mark Jacobs, the head of sales over tob in sites, join the company I think there were four or five million a rr and now you know there's somewhere between seventy and a hundred, and that was just a couple of years ago. So those are venture scale growth rates, all driven by the revenue right, by profitability, all of the hiring that they make, all of the investments that they make, they are a direct function and output of their customers believing in their product and buying the product. Not always possible and you do have to understand. You know, cocktail TV and it makes sense. There's a reason venture capital exists. It's not the venture capitals of bad thing, but it's a good discipline when you're forced to grow because your customers essentially want you to grow because they continue to give you more money. So you know something to think about. I hope you enjoyed the conversation. If you want to reach out to me, you always can linkedincom forward Sam f Jacobs. Before we go, we do want to thank our two sponsors. The first is lucid chart, lucid chart sale solution, the leading account planning platform, and our second is outreach, the leading sales engagement platform. If you have any questions, feedback concerns, if you haven't rated the show, please give it five stars on itunes and spotify and anywhere else people offer the ability to rate podcasts. This Friday we're going to be talking actually to somebody completely different, with that a new spin for the next three weeks on Friday fundamentals and we're bringing in one of my favorite sales leaders in New York, Collin Cad Miss, the head of sales for air call, which is another fast growing company. So a lot of great stuff coming up over the course of the next couple weeks on the sale sacer podcast. But for now thanks so much for listening and I'll talk to you next time.

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