The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

71. Why Account Based Marketing Doesn't Work w/ Latane Conant

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This week on the Sales Hacker podcast, we speak with Latane Conant, CMO of 6sense. 6sense is the leader in intent data. So if you’re ever wondering if a prospect is researching you before you’ve begun researching them, 6sense can tell you. Latane is here to talk about market leads… and you won’t want to miss her insights!

One, two, one, three, three. Hello everybody, welcome to the salesacker podcast. It's your host, Sam Jacobs. We've got another great episode. They're all great episodes. We've got another great episode coming for you this week. This is the second of three interviews that we conducted while we were on a boat for the revenue collective executive off site. I believe the date was July eighteen, and this one's with Latney knit and she's the chief marketing officer of six cents. Sixth sense is an account based marketing orchestration platform and and also one of the leaders in intent data, and if you're not familiar with intent data, it's likely one of the hotter categories and marketing right now. and Latin he's going to talk to us about not just being an in bound lead but winners. One is somebody in market. When can you reach out to a prospect, not necessarily because they've raised their hand to talk to your company, but because you have indications and signals that they have begun to research or or look for your solution, perhaps without even telling you, and so I think it's a really fascinating conversation. I know that sixth sense is working on some really interesting solutions. So I think you should listen now. We want to thank our sponsors before we get there. We have two sponsors. The first is loocid chart. MOOSID chart sale solution is the leading account planning platform for modern sales organizations. With lucid chart you can visually map out key contacts and crucial account data to uncover critical insights that will allow you to close bigger deals faster. Go to Lucid Chartcom from forward sales for more information. That's lucid chart sales solution. They're doing great stuff. Our second sponsors outreach. This outreachedt Ioh, the leading sales engagement platform. Outreach support sales reps by enabling them to humanize communications at scale, from automoting the soul sucking manual work that eats upselling time to providing action oriented tips on what communications are working best. Outreach has your back. Now, without further ado, let's listen to this interview with Fellow University of Virginia Alum Latiny conent. So...

I want to Introduce Fellow University of Virginia Alumni who go who's Latin E conent? Did I pronounce the last name right? Yes, chief marketing officer of six sense. Now I'm going to read you Latin. He's bio. She's passionate about empowering marketing leaders with effective technology, predictive insights and thought leadership so they can confidently lead their teams, company and Industry into the future. As a recovering software saleswoman, she is a keenly focused on leveraging data to ensure marketing programs result in deals, not just leads the death of the MQL. Maybe we'll talk about them. Prior to six and she was the Cmo of and a sales leader at a perio. She's instrumental in aligning sales and marketing under a consistent and relevant message, resulting in increased bookings, average deal size and improve when rates. She's creative, charismatic and competitive. Her high energy, positive attitude and sense of few more contagious, and she's a great partner, customer, audience, member or employee. Someone else clearly read that? Yes, I hope you did. Right. That's that's awesome. Sound way better than I am. Yeah, I know you're great. All right, for so. Welcome. So, first of all, at any your chief marketing officer of six sense sixth sense is sort of an upandcoming company, I think, in the sense that you're breaking through, you're delivering something really, really special and you're part of this new movement which is both around ABM and in taint data. So tell us what is six sense in your words? Yeah, so the reason I joined sixth sense, and it's been about ten months now, is because I actually tried to run ABM. ABM's a big deal. WHO'S HEARD OF ABM? Yeah, you'd have those under rock, but it's account base marketing. But it applies to how many people are in sales here. It applies to you too. So I'm glad that you're here. We're going to talk a lot about how it applies to you to but we attempted an ABM program it was a lot of work and guess what,...

...it didn't really pay off because it didn't scale. And if I come to you and say I'm going to run ABM and I'm going to spend most of my marketing resources on ABM and here's the fifty accounts, good luck to everybody else, how's that going to go over, Alex, not very well. Rights as a person in the audience, if you're listening on the podcast. And so the the critical aspect of ABM is being able to use Ay and big data and orchestration capabilities to actually do a BM at scale. And what I loved about six cents that no one else offered was the ability to actually predict for timing. So one of the things that came up on the last discussion is John talked about inbound and everyone got really excited about inbound. Well, I don't think about inbound. I think about in market because actually in my platform, before somebody in bounds, I can see that they're in market. I I can see that they have all of the right signs to be a great deal. I know they're researching. I know they're researching my competitors. Maybe they haven't come to me, and so I think about in market as the new inbound, because that is my commercial opportunity right now and that is what I have to partner with sales to capture. So what is that? How do you know that stuff? That sounds intriguing. It is. We have a lot of data scientists. So higher the higher platform, we definitely have to keep hiring. But essentially what we do is at the core of our platform is AI and big data and we have brought in all of these third party data providers, but we also work with all these be to be publishing houses. So John talked about getting your content out and people doing research. Well, people are out researching on these be to be publications and you need to know that research. You need to know what they're doing. You need to know this lights that they're looking at, because they're not coming to your website and they're not raising their hand right now, and if they...

...do it's a mickey mouse lead. We've all gotten the Mickey Mouse leads. What does it make? A mouse leap when someone fills out of form and they put like at AOL or Mickey Mouse or Ted Turner Right, because they know that. What happens is when you go and fill out of form, marketing is like yeah, we got a lead, and then we spam the hell out of them. We send them to what I call unsubscribe island and then we b software to deem things MQL's, and then we have a big dashboard that's flaming red saying sales didn't fall up with these leads. Not to rat out my people, but that is what happened. That is basically what happens, and it's because we don't have these pre pipeline metrics like you guys are measuring a pipeline that starts at opportunity and that's in crm. and think about how many things aren't in crm. About a deal that you would like to know? Now, imagine me. I've gotten nothing. I've got a bunch of anonymous research on the web. That is happening and I know people need my solution, but I have no visibility into it. And that's what six sense gives me. So we talked about the dark funnel. So all of that that I just described, that's your dark funnel, and what we're able to do is uncover that, and we uncover it in a unique way in that you know exactly what stage these accounts are in. And that's because we're not just looking at a person, a lead, and the systems that marketing uses today are set up for a lead which is one person. How pissed do you get at your reps when they're only talking to one person? What's that called? A single threaded deal? Right, we talked about it all the time. What are you doing, dude? You got to get broader. So why would I think it's okay to tea up a quote unquote lead which is one contact in one person? So what's sixth sense does is it takes all of the buying team and tells you who are the most important...

...people. It looks at their research to say where they are in that journey and allows me, as marketing to do the right things at the right time so I can tea up those in market accounts for my friends and sales. Well, that was an incredible explanation. So, anyway, I probably need a better elevator pitch. It's okay, I'm excited about it. So just the passion really well, it's it's amazing and it's a it's this. So you've talked about you've said that ABM doesn't scale. Why do you think ABM doesn't scale? And and you know, yes, we need to use a platform like sense or something you know, or six Sen specifically. But when you talk about a companies marketing, first of all, how do you define it and walk us through why you think that's not currently working? Okay, so I just walked you through the typical marketing flow. Right. So a m all these analysts came in and said well, this isn't right, we should do it different. And My simplifier view of a BM is one you pick the best accounts. So you pick people that look like other ones that you've sold to, that have the right you know, install that you can actually sell to, write company size. So you you pick the best accounts. You actually know something about them, like what they're interested in and what they're timing is and who the buying team is. You engage the right way, which is not forms, spam and cold calls, you collaborate with sales and you track real stuff. So it's five what seemingly pretty basic stuff and you're probably like why F haven't you guys have not been doing that all along? But if you take each one of those, they're fraught with issues and a lack of like insights and orchestration, and so there's tons of breakdown. So even picking the right accounts or selecting the best accounts, who feels like they have a strong ICP, that's an you know go it's your ideal customer...

...profile. I think we know what I seep, hopefully, but anyway, okay, nobody raised their hand. PODCAST listeners and a few it well that can be a whole. I mean you could need a whole team of data scientists and workshops and there can be a lot of debate about you know, no, Slovakia has a great market for us, baby by it bit right. Well, just having a strong ICP is absolutely critical and that takes a lot of, I think, real insights, not opinions, to have a strong ICP. So that alone is something that we provide with AI and big data, by looking at what's worked for you in the past and what opportunities have open before. Then you then you go to know about them. Well, ninety percent of be to be buying is done before they come to your website, and when they do come to your website, they don't fell out of form and they're out researching. So you know, all you do is write a couple blogs and you've got like a great marketing strategy. I'm making photo of someone in the room anyway. That's for the best. About guest anyway. So so I need to know what they're interested in, I need to know the sites that they're going to, I need to know the ebooks that they just read. I need to know basics like technographic, firmographic. So I can segment the right way, and so sixth sense provides all of that. When most marketers are have like only twelve percent of marketers are confident in their data. So just having that is super basic and important and part of what the plot a platform gives you. Then you think about engaging the right way and unpacking that. I mean there's a nurture tracks. So we have you ever heard marketing talk about a nurture track? Of course, okay, that's just like a lot of emails. Basically. Typically that's a fancy...

...way of seeing a lot of emails. And so what we have to be able to do is look at their stage and, based on their stage, do something different. Like if they're early on, the message that I give them is going to be different than if they're later and the tactic that I use is going to be different. It might be more appropriate to do direct mail, it might be more appropriate to do display. We talked a lot about bedrs or SDRs. When should they call? Like I want them calling in a certain pocket. And do you want them to call? I want them calling within twenty four hours of an account moving in market. So just like I have a five minute SAA on inbound. I have a twenty four hour SLA on in market. And then their cadence is based on keywords that we know have been researched because we can see it and those are all built, as well as the time they're timing. And so in market meaning they're searching for some category or a list of key worries and that populates and then you they st ours know it and then they call. Yeah, yeah, so we've defined and and in market for us is not just any account in market, because how many times have you gotten hot lead with an account that's like five people and you're like, okay, they could never afford our stuff. So I could talk about my inmarket ICP. So making sure it's an ideal customer profile. But they're also in market. So one of the things that that you've talked about. It's the title of the session. Your prospect experience stinks. Walk us through what you mean by that? Well, you know, I talked about it a little bit earlier. Like the because of the infrastructure that typical marketing and sales teams have, it's kind of a frank and stack and on the marketing side it's all built for that lead. And so what we have to do is the only way to capture a lead is to have a form and so, but what we learned earlier is the best way to drive in mound is to like let your content go and have people consume it and have it go viral. And so that's like at enemy and...

...odds with how we actually get and capture leads. So that's the first problem. The second problem is, you know, we build those nurture tracks and we just spam the hell out of it out of people. And the third problem is I just took over the BDR team and you know, I don't have an I think they should call, and we do call, but I don't want them calling random people at random times like that's a poor use of their time, a and it's super demotivating. I mean, these are a future sales people. I need to give them every opportunity to succeed. And how many times do you answer the phone? I generally answer the phone. Do you do that just because you used to be a BEDR? Well, I'm a salesperson and I feel bad for people that are gone. Yeah, btrs, please call sum Jacobs, especially with local presidents. Any One? Seven maybe? I want something anyway. So not only does it suck for all of us because we know it's uneffective, but it really sucks for the actual prospect and so breaking out of the noise to me is about thinking about how we reimagine that, using insights and being a lot more intelligent about how we get in the prospects flow and provide help like that's that's why dash and I dash has an a e at six sense, and we were talking on the way here and she's a very successful a. She said, I just want to help, like each and every one of us, I think, fundamentally went into sales because it is lucrative, but it's also really nice to feel like an expert and you're helping people through, and that's the process we have to take a prospect through. And in order to provide help you prep. You prep the hell out of a meeting. So I need to be able to have those insights so I can prep and do the right outreach based on the insights. So it sounds to me. Are you a proponent of removing gates on the website, removing gated content, giving all of the insights...

...away for free? Are you advocating for removing maybe every form but the request demo form. I'm no forms, no spam, no code calls, and so no forms. Is the only use of a form for us is if you are registering, like for an event or something like that, or if we're giving you something in return. So like, for example, we have an uncover now, so the dark funnel that I talked about earlier. If anybody wants to go and uncover their dark funnel, you can go to our website, put in your information, we have to get your keywords and then we have to set up an instance. So we need a form to contact you to set up the instance. So that would be an example of a good use of a form. Another good use of a form as we are rolling out in Roy calculator, and so we're getting data in, we're developing the Roi Analysis and we need someone to send it back to. So those, to me are good uses of form and obviously a demo request. But other than that, yeah, content ghosts, ghost free. Are you still investing in content? Oh, yeah, big time, big time. We're doing some cool stuff. We're really video focused and being able to take a video format and then turn like twenty or thirty five pieces of derivative content out of it, which is kind of fun. And so where do you put the video? How are you using it? Well, we have vide yard and we have content hubs and then we try to make them all like. I think the sales people are getting bored right now. Oh okay, so we all want to know how to make money. That okay, okay. So what we've tried to do is take long form video, because most people don't want to write and they can sort of have writers block when you ask them to write a blog or whatever. But most content people are somewhat junior and don't know the product and they end up writing just like me stuff. So our approaches we get as many of our experts and customers on video long...

...form. We then make it all snack size and chapterable and cut up in little pieces. We also transcribe it all, so it's awesome for search. We make a bunch of social tiles and or it's able to be like used in commercial teaching and our cadences as well as like in like in a meeting, if Alex is talking about a certain use case, they don't want to hear Alex go through the slide about, you know, PTC in the use case. They want to hear a PTC on video saying this is how we use six sense in our bedrs, Bubba Blabah. So trying to make it very easy to mix and match where you need to put stuff. One of the you know, metrics. Incentives are always important and you talked about, you know, not focus on revenue, on M Ql. So what are the mechanisms, as as a CMO, that you use to drive alignment between marketing and sales so that you can get where you need to go and drive revenue? Is it is as simple as incentives? Are you comped on pipeline generation or you comped on close deals? How do you think about sales and marketing alignment? Yeah, so we are not yet, but that is I'm very I'm pushing the team very hard to get there. The reason that we're not yet is when I came in ten months ago, we I brought over my revenue op sky and the data is just we didn't have good data before and so it's not fair to comp a team on targets and stuff that you don't feel super confident about based on historical win rates and things like that. But eventually what we go to is pipe created and again, depending on the sophistication of the data and kind of where we're focused, it's either just total pipe or it can be, you know, marketing and Bedr pipe, things like that. So typically my team ends up having a quota and it's quarterly and then they can share and hopefully all of our success. And what percent of pipe, of total pipe, is marketing expected to contribute versus either the...

...reps prospecting themselves or outboundst ours or and you own the entire bedr function, I do now as of a couple months ago. So you know, I think it depends on how mature your content and your inbound and I don't think there's like a magic number. You know, for us, if you look at the history of six sense, we've we invested heavily in sales first, which is awesome. We have the best, I think, sales team in the industry, and then later have invested in marketing and Bedr. So for us it's like seventy thirty, seventy percent being marketing and bed ours and it's about out twenty percent inbound. But I that's like my number one priority is to get in bound up over the next, you know, couple quarters. So every quarter we're trying to double that. Basically, what are the big initiatives that you're doing on the marketing side to drive like top of the funnel awareness just in terms of tactics that you're seeing are very effective for the people in the room? Yes, but I'm Bom Bom, someone in the audience said, using sixth sense, which absolutely absolutely, using six sense. So, but so we use six sense and we do a lot of display around those stages that I talked about. We also launched a talk show called talking sense, which has been a great way to get industry leaders and experts sharing their stories and their content and just kind of involved in in our movement. So that's been a really, really successful program for us. And then we actually summit. Sank, I believe, is a member of the revenue collective and I guess I think they're here Alice here out for as yeah, and you know, for US industry, because ABM is kind of a confusing term and a little bit of a Buzzword. There's just a lot of educating that...

...we have to do on what is ABM and what isn't ABM, and so we are at a lot of trade shows and so making sure that we get the most out of those is a big objective of mind. So I had a good we use some at sync to make sure that all of our meetings are pre booked and followed up and that we're really eking every last drop out of those type of investments. And then we are now doing the bdrs. are starting to do custom videos, which is really fun and, I think, a kind of a unique way to personalize cadences, and so we're trying to lead with some sort of highly personalized video about the platform. Or Hey, we see you researching this. It's kind of like using our spyware, which people like. So just those are a few things. Alice. We just bought Alice, which is a direct gifting platform, so we're excited about that too. Awesome questions in the audience. Heather, hi, I'm heather if hi, Heather Marketing. I like your purse, by the way. He's very cute. So if you've ungated all of this content, I'm just wondering if you're doing any type of lead scoring. So basically, what six sense does is six sense does all of our scoring. So six send scores the contact and the quality of that contact based on previous experience. So we have a persona map that the AI tells us which personas are most important to us historically over time. Six send scores if the account is even a good fit for us to sell to at all. Sixth sense then scores the intent and you know how much it's surging. And then sixth sense scores you know the kind of the relationship of the people and how engaged they are, and that rolls up into what we call a six Qa. So no behavioral, just degram. No, it's all behavioral because the AI is looking at what...

...those people are doing to give me a score. Andrew Andre s observers and restaurant technology. Fifty percent of our bookings are Noun, I think by Geo like the to be like a hundred percent. On my way they are. One of my questions about six senses. Of the fifty percent of our booking coming in down, hundred percent of that is from one search term. That's restaurant us. How does six sens know about surge in ten for other products that are decent, like insights, that that's not a search thing. So like what would six sense be able to identify for us to get in front of a fire thy nets. that. Yeah, so one of the things. So when I when I started, I said, and I think maybe why I got the job, I don't know. As I said I was going to be the most pain in the ass customer for sixth sense, and so when I started, we sort of redeployed our own instance of six sense and I had the whole customer success team like helping me through it. And we actually have a consultant and best practices on how to set up all of your keywords to make sure you pick up the right amount of signal without noise, and so. And there's two types of keywords. There's branded keywords, which would be like like for me, like top the more the topical, like you describe our generic keywords, like you like the ones you described, and then there's branded, so like who were your competitors? Things like that, and you can even like you can even put in like content terms that you know that they would go and search, or are their trade shows that you know that they go to, that real you know are relevant in your industry. So we sort of consult you through to make sure you get you pick up a good amount signal. One last question. I'll give you one last question. Campaigns attribution. So there's there's a lot of discussion debate. I'll lead the witness sort of, so to speak. But okay, I...

...don't really believe in first touch attribution versus last touch attribution. I believe that, like it's all sort of part of a comprehensive effort by the sales and Marketing Organization, in conjunction with each other, to generate, you know, awareness, interest, decision and action, so to generate the opportunity. What do you think? Are you still because I find that last touch versus first touch just doesn't make a lot of sense, given how people actually in just experiences and content and ideas. What do you think? I mean? I think that, as the CMO, you have to be pragmatic about how the whole notion of attribution is to help us prioritize our spend and our investment to get the very, very most stunt out of it. And so it's not about credit, it's about how we prioritize spend. And so what I think about is a few things. I think about that pre pipeline funnel that I described and what are my strategies for each aspect of that pre pipeline funnel and then I look at how they're converting to see how effective I'm I am with those strategies. I also think a lot about the timing of the investment and I think that's where sometimes marketing and sales can have challenges, because some of the bets that I'm making are not going to come to fruition this quarter. In fact they probably aren't. You know, things that I'm doing now are not going to probably take effect for six months, maybe even a year, because you know, those are the type of things that I have to do. So it's just being able to have a good relationship with your executive team so they understand how you're prioritizing your spend and when you think it's going to pay off and why you think it's going to pay off. In that way, I still do attribution, though. I do basically last touch, and I just want to look at my three channels. I want to look at embound, outbound and field, because those are big program spend and I want to be able to know if the serious decisions event, which is a big...

...chunk of money, how do we do? How many customers are we talk to? How many meetings do we get booked before that? How does that compare to last year? And if you don't start tracking the stuff, then you have no type of trend analysis to know am I getting what I need to out of this money? And that also allows to have and a better conversation with the AE's to say, here is your budget, Alex. we can spend it a lot of different ways. Here is what I recommend, based on what we saw last time from the direct mailbox campaign. Given where you are with your territory and if you don't have anything, you have no frame of reference, makes a lot of sense. Latiny, thanks so much. If people want to reach out to you, if they want to contact you, if they want to become customers of sense, what's the preferred method of communication? Yeah, hit me on Linkedin. I'm also Latin et conant at six cents. How do we spell that for the people out there in the world? Lata Ne Dot con ant at six sense. It's such an easy name. I don't understand why you wanted me to spell that. Let's the last name, Jacob, just as beautiful. Lattney, thanks so much for being here. Let's give around of applause. Everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. This is SAM's corner. I hope you like the interview with Latiney conent on the boat. There was some, you know, very conversational in that interview, but I think so many important takeaways. It was one of my actually one of my favorite conversations from that day on the boat, because I think this category of intent data is so important. So if you're a marketer out there or just a salesperson, you got to understand that there's a whole new world emerging around intent data, which is companies searching for and buy or searching for your solution or beginning to go in market, beginning to express through,...

...you know, search engines and through their digital footprints and digital traces, that they are exploring a solution. And what better time to reach out to a company when you finally figure it out that they are actually in market? It maybe before they've raised their hand and filled out a lead form, but it's still might be the perfect opportunity to reach out. And so this concept of being in market versus simply being an inbound lead, I think is really interesting. The second thing that's really interesting in my opinion is this movement away. You know, a couple years ago, maybe you know, when I was at live stream, potentially an incredible marketer, and Bervan Mosner taught me about, you know, this concept of Turkey, Turkey dinner content, big graph content, which is basically you create one massive piece of content and then from there you cut off small pieces of it and those find their way into your social posts and your blog posts etc. So that it can live forever like a Turkey dinner after Thanksgiving. But the key to that has always been gated content that you go to a website, you fill out, you enter your email address and that's what gives you the access to the white paper or to the research report. And what we're seeing now is that more and more people are talking about just U gating content tent and giving away content for free and stop trying to grab people's email addresses so transactionally, but instead just demonstrate your thought, leadership expertise as as an organization, as a marketing organization or sales organization, over time, such that eventually they find the place where they can request a demo directly, request a conversation with the salesperson. So we're moving completely away from this old world of like anybody can come to the website, they fill out an email address, hopefully that email address matches an ICP ideal customer profile and then I get I reach out to the my schedule of meeting and its productive use of all of our time. Now we're moving to a world where we're going to look at that. We've decided who the people that we want to sell to our they're going to express themselves by being in market. I'm going to give them free content to push them into market, but once they once I know that they're in market, I'm going to use platforms like six cents to reach out to them. Totally different world and if you're not following the marketing space closely, it's going to pass you by. So it's important to stay connected here. So that's been SAM's corner. We...

...want to thank our sponsors before we go. Our first sponsors loocid, chart sale solution, the leading account planning platform for modern sales organizations. In our second sponsors outreached IO, the leading sales engagement platform. If you want to reach out to me, you can linkedincom forward the word in and then far Sam f Jacobs if you haven't rated our show, please give it five stars on Itunes and I will talk to you next time.

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