The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

8. Build Your Sales Pipeline with the Best Sales Cadences w/ Derek Grant

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

On this episode of the Sales Hacker Podcast, we talk with Derek Grant, VP of Sales from SalesLoft about building a successful pipeline with the best sales outreach strategies. Tune in now!

One, two, one, three, three. Before we get started, we want to thank this month's sponsorintroducing Gong Dot Io, the number one conversation intelligence platform for sales. Gonghelps you generate more revenue by having better sales conversations. It automatically captures andanalyzes your team's conversations so you can transform your team into quota shattering supersellars.Visit Gong DOT IO forwards sales hacker to get in on the action and seeit liest. And now on with the show. Everybody, welcome to thesales hacker podcast. It is your host, Sam Jacobs. We've got a greatone today. We've got Derek Grant, who leads sales lost commercial sales organization. Let me quickly give you Derek's bio and then we're going to jumpinto the interview. So Derek has delivered hockey stick growth and earn the numberseven spot. Actually, this is sales laft on the Lloyd's fast five hundredfastest growing companies, by helping over a fifteen hundred companies deliver a better salesexperience to their customers while maximizing revenue. Prior to joining sales loft, Derekserved as the architect of part of sales process, leading the organization from prerevenue start up to a hundred million dollar exit to exact target subsequently acquired bysales force. Derek is a native son of Florida, holds a bachelor's degreein Comms from Florida State and is supervised by three high powered ladies, hiswife Kelly and his baby girls, Riley and race. Welcome, Derek Samthanks a lot for having me on here. You know, this will be probablythe first sales hacker podcast that has ever been turned into a drinking game, because you're north of the Mason Dixon Line, I'm south of it,and so every time that I say y'all or bliss, they're harder reference cornbread. Based on my two roots, I feel like everyone should have totake a drink of something. So it's going to be a lot of funand I'm I'm excited. You'd happen. Well, that's fair and as aconsequence, you know, we're recording this before noon, so we encourage peopleto wait at least till afternoon before they start pouring themselves a shot of Jamison, which is my preferred drink, a quick counterbalance so that you can't drinkall day if you don't get started in the morning. That's a good point, and we can be productive while drinking during the day. You know,it's a myth that you can't be productive. You just got to make sure youhave company. So anyway, Derek, you're the VP of commercial sales.As I mentioned, you work for salesloft. Tell us about sales loftvery quickly. Yeah, so salesloft is a technology company here in Atlanta thatoverly sales forcecom and it helps you codify your go to market strategy. Youknow, so often we hire reps who are hid on the disc profile orhigh on the high on the disc profile their dominance or influencers, but theymiss some of the follow up, some of the process centric things, andsales offt is really there to help you define your play and help reps beable to adhere to it and to be able to drive forward to the thingsgoing to drive the most revenue for their business. And so you know,news today. We just announced the fifteen million dollar funding round from insight andalso linkedin. So, so so powerful. It's a grow eight growing space.It is the next half to have for technology companies. Are Out thereand I think it will move out of the early adoptors stage of just beinga tech centric platform and move into more traditional industries. But you know,there's two types of companies once who are going to buy sales engagement this yearand use it as an offensive advantage, and the ones who all buy itnext year, who were just going to be playing defense. So very coolspace, validated by the investors and really honored to be will congratulations on thefunding and so give us a rough sense. Obviously you know the specifics or privateand confidential, etcetera, etc. But how, roughly, how bigis sales loft from an are our perspective? So we do keep that a littlebit close to the best. What I would say is that that acompany's growth through trajectory from two to twenty million is one of the number oneindicators of how they'll fare in the public market. I can tell you thatwe did it in an incredibly fast amount of time. Also, the thebusiness insider article that talks about this today mentions eight hundred percent growth in thelast two years, and so we've had the opportunity to grow. It's thebreak neck pace and great testament to marketing, market timing and a break products teambus. Well, are in our...

...mutual friend Kevin o'malley, runs runsmarketing for you guys. So I think marketing is done an amazing job.At sales lost, so we will take that to imply north of twenty million, which is fantastic. And then how big is your team? So myteam is fifty across strs and a's and sales engineers and managers and so forth. So yeah, good sized team. So now let's hear a little bitmore about Derek Grant. Beside beyond the accent, how long have you beenin startup landed? How did you get into sales, specifically, because youare particularly when it comes to like start sales leaders outside of the traditional hubsof New York City in the bay area. You're one of the folks that alot of us know abouts. How do you find your way into sales? I'm an accidental seller. There's something to be said for persistence, andso I worked the night shift at a company and Tallahassee during my time atFlorida State and did tech support and from there I parlay that into a trainingGig at the company and from there I got into project management and from there. Was One day walking down the hallway and the sales manager stuffs head outthe door and said Hey, you want to do sales? And I wasin Grad school at the time getting up what I'm sure would have not beena super valuable communications masters because we're doing communications for free right now. ForFree, is there no money? And it's Sam and so he convinced meto take a job on the road. I got a really premote territory forselling technology. I got the Midwest, so I got Iowa and Kansas,north South Dakota, I meant the places where you really think of technology beingtaking up by people, and had a great experience. It was this withPhilicon Prairie, I think that's what they call it. Maybe there's I don'teven know if there's silicon out there, just a prairie. We're corn stalksout number of people substantially, but what a great learning ground for me.The opportunity to sell enterprise technology to government, which was a different sort of thingbecause government buys by RFP. So it's less about just grass roots sellingas as much to do with your ability to fill up paperwork and sort oftalking process and rigger and then a really weird stop. For one year Ibecame the chief sales guy to psychiatric hospital. Wow, and a lot of peoplehave said, I think you actually were a patient. There's like no, no, I was working there, pretty sure. So you were sellingcrazy people on the opportunity to come to your hospital. That's exactly right.If we actually are, we it was. I didn't spend too much time withthe crazy people, but with psychiatrist, therapist inpatient psychiatric facilities and was convincingthem to send their their loved ones to us to say for anywhere fromthirty to ninety days and talk about being heartbroken. I I saw some thingsthat just absolutely still to this day score meet up technology. When it messesup, nobody dies, no families or torn apart, and what I sawthere was just I just didn't have the mental make up, the strength tobe able to live long in that field. And so in the time I metmy wife, met her and Drug Rehab and it turned out she workedfor a drug Rehab and or for a psych hospital. So I was tryingto get referrals out of her. Most people kind of pause when they hearthat I met my wife and Drug Rehab Anyway. Well, good, becauseit seems possible right have. I've been in a few ever patient they're sortof like the psy hospital, and I thought maybe you're just an oversharer,and I'm like, okay, yeah, and you are very real part ofthe interview. All of a sudden share that. Yeah, that you donwant to share that. But she convinced me after that year to move toa PLANTA and I was super lucky to have been on craigslist at the time. If you're going craigslist now, you're probably not looking for a job atit. Back in two thousand and seven you can find a job. It'sinstead of like a casual encounter, I suppose. And found part on onthere and was the fourth employee part up two thousand and seven. You arethe fourth employee at part on. Crazy to think about. Wow, thefirst non technical and we started there the Tuesday after Labor Day. Who Dowe move my life to Atlanta to be part of this fudgling start up andwas pretty sure that we'd be out of business by thanks going we people hadwanted. We didn't know what the message was, the product was not featurerich and we just sort of kept at it over time and we grew andinterestingly, and for anyone who's out there right now and thinks about the therole of Bluck, you know good great talks about how bluck is something superimportant. The downturn of the economy in two thousand and eight actually was animportant reason that that part up was able to be successful, because they wantedan Elok what type of platform, but...

...they didn't necessarily have the resource tohelp. And so you take the women's that come at you, you tournamentto eliminate, and so there's some interesting things there that we were able topersevere and endure and ultimately get all by exact target and ultimated sales force.I mean whole what a cool experience to have seen it from for employees toshe's had a team of two hundred sellers globally about the time we got done, by the time I left. Just incredible to see the growth and theyare killing it now. I'm so proud of them. I mean that's areally interesting story and there's so many folks that are listening right now that arein that stage where maybe it's not for people, but it's a small number. First of all, it's amazing as a sales lead. You you madeit through, because so many times, you know, every CEO is goingto hire an executive coach to tell them that they got a layer. It'seither the executive coach or the investors saying, well, I don't know if Derek'sthe guy for ten to twenty million, but he might be a guy forzero to ten. So how did you make it through all of thosedifferent transitions and what are the lessons that you took from the small place whereyou're almost preproduct market fit to the place where you know you're getting acquired byexact target and ultimately running a global team of two hundred? The truth ofthe matter is that had we had VC investment, I wouldn't have been ableto have lasted the entire time. That that's such an interesting thing that youthink about as the head of sales. If someone puts in tens or,in the case what hap today, fifty million dollars for sales loft, whatends up happening is they want to bring in someone that's done it before.Well, when you're an unfunded start up, they can't afford someone who's done itbefore, and so they were stuck with me. But you know,one of the really cool things they did to get me excited about the companywas they built out a plant. And I remember when I started in twothousand and seven. Sam. You're going to laugh at this because it's onemonths rent in New York, forty twozero dollars a year, my very firstyear at art. If you believe that, well you can say in my bathroomfor thirty twozero a month I could maybe get a like a corner ofyour closet, I just think. But what they said was here's we're goingto do. We're going to hit this revenue milestone, we're going to hiretwo reps and we're going to hit this next revenue milestone, we're going tohire four reps. and affects me. They built out the plan that allowedme to grow incrementally with that business show's Army of one. I was theVP of me, you know, the chief bottle Washer of five dollar titleand a fifty cent job. And then we got a couple reps and thenwe got a couple more and a couple more and then we got to thepoint we needed our first manager, and so we hired are we promoted Jordanracky into that position and we hired a few more reps and a few moreand a few more, and then we needed another manager we pout doing inthat spot. So we just kind of grew over time and so, youknow, I probably couldn't have done and if the me ten years ago wasin a VC backs company and they just invested a lot of money, there'sa likelihood that I would have not had the opportunity to have the experience thatI had. And so the grind and the heart ache and the hardship thatwe had to endure. What is we were competing against Parketto and Elko andhub spot. Really, I guess all four actually ipowed to do it asan unfunded company. You know, was crazy and there were a lot oflessons farm there. You know, he asked about different lessons learned. Ithink I've found that there's a difference between doing managing the doers and managing themanagers, and that was something I didn't understand at the time. But justthe different skill sets when aren't what do you think the different skill sets are? Particularly you know, the thing that was always a challenge for me wasgoing from managing the doers to managing the managers. How what's your point ofview on that? That's a huge one. I think that there has to bereally distinct role clarity is to what it is that they want to do. I can tell you that that during my time at hard on, oneof the things that I did was was I ended up. I would runthe end around of my managers and it's just like such a bad thing todo, but because I knew the raps and reps for me and I'd goto the reps and you know, if there's a deal, I need toknow where. It wasn't the manager, it's called them direct and so Istruggled with that. And so something we've done sales off to is really focuson role definition and I owe it to my managers and our leaders here yearto not go around. If I want to communicate some Superpositi to a rep, I take every right to do that, but I need to work through them. They need to have clear KPI's. One of the things I do withour SDR managers today is they have a red, green yellow sheet foreach individual rep and what I walk into the everyone saying is, what's wrong? What I'm going to be going to be mad about when I see it. What if you already done to fix...

...it? And so it empowers themto be able to make decisions and more keep me in the blue and ifthey need help, they know I'm there to jump in on it. ButI think it's mean not necessarily going to record to that reper and put armaround and saying, what the Hell, man, we gotta get this done. Come on, I need to see more will out of you, becauseyou've got zero skiell right now. We need to prove it. Case I'mable to sort of keep my rain, my crazy and I guess and andhave the managers really use me as a resource rather than me being the personwho's down there trying to make it happen. And it's it's hard. I've hada management one time. We talked about different leadership scylet styles, andI found myself in there. I was the paralyzing manager and I was soembarrassed on our right as a crap. What is the paralyzing manager? Theperson who's always willing to do the thing for them and always ready to givean answer. And what ends up happening is your managers stopped being accountable foryou things. They know that you're just going to go to the Reps.the reps can know all if you're out of the office and they need someoneto explain what to do on a contract or against the particular better they cometo a grinding halt. And it's because I was so wanted to help,I go so wired to help, that by helping so freely, actually reallydis empowered all the people that were around me. So I've sort of knowmy I know my blind spot on that one and I did you learn thatbased on feed back or you know, it's sort of like self reflection,selfwareeness after the fact. I've heard the analogy of plate spinning, you know, the one of the things that we found whenever week, whenever I hadthe team a two hundred, was one day I was so involved in allthe things that my managers would have handled for me and my director would havehandled for me, but because I was so intent on being involved in everything, one day the places just started falling off. I could keep him allspending anymore, and I think I realized it, maybe a little too latewhen by, you know, personal quality of life went way down. Ican say I was work every night till Zen. I drink myself to sleep, but wake up in the morning said on the back porch call London pounda pack of cigarettes. It just like, Oh, I would just a horriblesob and it was because of the fact that I tried to be intoo many places at one point. So when you ask the question of like, how did I realize that? I realized that when my life it almosthit it had hit a sort of a professional rock bottom, when things wereprofessionally, we were still driving revenue, but man, I just the Iwas miserable. I was a miserable sob and it wasn't anybody's fault. Itwasn't sales force, fallow and parducts fault. Was An anybody's fault, in myfault because I couldn't stay in my lane and I wanted to help somuch that I was a mild wide and itch deep and could help anybody.I just did become this sort of Bocker to things getting done. Talk aboutreflection. I my wife works in a substitute treatment center, which is backto the joke of Minier and druggery have, but I think in druggery have youneed to have a rock bottom, and I can tell you that Ithat was a once you have a real sort of moment of crisis and justa moment of real strong long inside of head. Wins at this point.It is like a hurricane coming at you. I had the opportunity to go backand take a little bit of an inventory and there's a lot of thingsI would have done differently and I'm trying to do here at sales off whichis be helpful but not necessarily have to do all the things. Yeah,and I think that transition is tough for I don't think it's just you.I think it's tough for a lot of people because I think sometimes people feellike work is the act of like the tactics, is the act of workingon the deal themselves or being on the phone called themselves, and when youhave to step back and do all of that through the organization and through yourmanagement layers, I think sometimes it doesn't feel like work to people and theywonder what they're doing all day because their meetings until six and then they gohome and that doesn't feel quite as productive as actually having gotten the Docu signsigned. You know it. You lose the thrill with the A drilline rushis being in the room and it's it is interesting that is you pull back. You're no longer the person leading the group up the hill. You canstill lead from the front, but you're now the person who's back a fewlevels and and you're up on the hill and you're able to see everything that'sgoing on and really be able to command the battlefield. But you have totake your gratification from other places, you know, because it's no longer aboutbeing the person that helps drive the deal over one and I think all ofus, and sales are a little bit of glory hounds. That's not meantto be ugly, and you may say not me, but I mean likeit's fun to win. It's fun to be in the room when you win. It's fun to see the whites going for a grand new rep you can'tbelieve that you said the thing and it worked and here you are with thecontract. It's awesome and it's just it's...

...you have to find foot film andI think an other of places, whether it's coaching on boarding, whether it'shelping doing leadership development, whether it's any more time and strategy or even,you know, being locked into a room. From a marketing perspective, to helprefind the message, I think you can't be the Adrenalin junk you.My ex brother in law was a navy pilot and when he got to beforty he's not able to go out and fly on the squads anymore. Sothen he becomes part of a training Battie and then they don't get to flyanymore. Now he's now the EXO, he's commanding officer, because you know, over time, the things that you used to do or not the thingsyou should be doing later in your career. And it was interesting that that I'vesort of seen that happen in my own career. As much I wantto be the adrenaline junkie at the stick driving the the deal Ford, that'snot really where I should be doing other things. And then I know isnow sort of have a desk job at a sales desk shop. It's cool, but it is it's a different sort of thing every day, I agree. And then there's some of us where some people get the reverse feeling,which is sort of a weird way of saying that some people feel like theyweren't quite ever meant for the individual contributors stuff, but they knew they neededto do it, but they always felt like maybe they felt more comfortable ata death job, overseeing the battlefield, etc. You've been doing sales forquite a while. You know this is a question a lot of people askthat. You mentioned disc profiles. When you think about the qualities of ahuman being that make them effective sellers and effective account executives, what do youthink stands out? So every sales leader out there's listening to this is goingto hire the first day or the first guy who walks across, because theytell an incredible story. They tell a story about strong arm. You know, the old joke was that. You know, they throw their mother ona flight of stairs to get a contract sign. That your classic t wifeof the Party, never met a stranger, classic eye, and those the peopleyou wanted. Sales. I'll tell you that the best seller I've everseen operate was a seat, was a compliant. They call it now somethingdifferent, because millennials have ruined everything. Sorry, Millennius, they haven't ruinedeverything when they're going to mend gun laws in our country, so that's agood thing. Anyway, they're going to bend everything and they truly are changedin the world and I will say that anybody who doesn't get them should thinkabout it harder, because they are their purpose full and their intentional and theywant to be connected deep with two things I you know, is I sortof kid about the monials ruining things like you can't call it compling anymoday.I have called conscientious, but this guy was boring to watch work. He'snot particularly likeable, so he wasn't an eye. He had some DNM ingustedeverything perfect. You told you'd have any thing by Friday at five o'clock.He had it to you thirty. I never missed the follow up. Hewas just absolutely incredible. It's gotch tripling quote and he doesn't look like aprototype. Sounding like holy smokes, we should hire an army of season.We did. We went out, we started profiling people like I who wantsto seller, who's in an influencer, get them out of her and wehired three sees, Brad Christie, and we had our guy, Kebin andBrad and Christie. Incredibly, they were so thorough. They would know thename of the person's dog, they knew their favorite color, they knew wherethey've gone to school and what the score of the game was that they goneto last based on Instagram, which was in a scramp the time, butlike whatever. And they call what happened when the voice and that's two hoursof you that you're cane back. So we subsequently Shit can all of ourseas excepted. They were terrible. They're horrible. That like great for support, great for accounting, awesome and Lesie, let's high them in our accounting part. They were terrible at sales and so but I do think that yourd's in your eyes, in strength finders, they talk about balconies and basements andthe idea that if you're really strong something, that there's a blind spotyou don't make off the suns realize it. The sort of classic one is likegreat communicator, bad listener. And so you hire your D's and eyes, but you have to be wary of what their blind spots are and they'renot a low hanging fruit sort of machine, that they're not necessarily super intentional alot of times, and so love them for what they're good for,but then know they are blind spots and be willing to hold them accountable todo the things will help them be sincere and thorough and their territory and theirapproach to customers, because you don't want hire seas for sales. If youfind one and they're good their Unicorn, but you don't hire those. Youwant your Das and eyes, but just be honest about what they're bad atto. Okay, well, that's good advice. One of the things thatwe're not trying to pitch sales loft on...

...this call. But at the sametime, I think you know, when I was down in the Lanta recentlyfor rainmaker, you guys had a lot of really interesting research about sort ofI guess I call them foundational cadences, something like the best practices about howto reach out to prospects, how to get a meeting and how to effectively. So what insights have you glean from, you know, the labs beat,from the boys in the back and the research that you've been doing onthe best and most effective of ways to get meetings? We have an incrediblybright group of data scientists. Now, they are not going to go outand get a date with someone of the opposite sex, you know, butthey will pull a calculator out of their pocket into a math equation in justa split second, bus their heart. There's a drink for everyone out there, and so I think that's the only that's the first drink we've had.So people are still relatively sober at that. You know, I need, theyneed to ramp it up a little bit to use. But yet thoseguys are great. And you know, because sales off sits the intersection ofphone, email, social, all these different touch types and touch patterns thatpeople are using, we were able to go in and take a look andwe were able to do this thing to the called derived cadence, as wehave a thing that the call cadence coach, and it's effectively going out and lookingall these interactions over the last four years and giving you an idea ofwhat might be an optimal cadence for your business. That's the one thing thaton the sales side we encounter. It's like, yeah, I know Ineed a cadence. What do you think of this one? It's like,I don't know, I don't Know Your Business, I don't know your buyer, your messaging could stink, I got I don't know. You know it. Theoretically, I can tell you that companies like Toko say that fifteen touchesis the right number of touches, but there's a lot lost in translation there. And so what we did is we looked at all these two hundred millioninteractions and we found a few things that are crazy important and simple tweaks thateveryone here can make to their cadences in their go to market process is tobe able to be more effective in their communicational prospects. And the first oneis start with a phone call. And the very first manager I talked aboutit hard up was a guy named Jordan racky and he came through our SDRranks. This is two thousand and eight, and he told me in two thousandand eight to fast forward a decade ago, and you got to dustthis memory offen so well, high schedule all my meetings by email. They'vebeen saying it would be. For All the leaders out there who are hearingthat. I've been hearing that for a decade and it's like great, whatyou're doing all by email? Do you got even more time to make phonecalls? But it's just like, come on, I don't tell me that, you tell me you do. They say, for this late the call, you know, and what we find is that making a call and followingup with the email, doing a double tap, is the number one highestpredictor of a high performing cadence. And you may say, well, wedon't like to call them day one. It's like, yeah, I getit, but what I can tell is the science says you should. Well, we like to email first and and follow the email up with the callsthey have some contexts. Yet totally get it. The data says you shouldcall first. It's not say you shouldn't do an email and a phone callon the same day, but you should be what are you just switch theorder and it gives higher connect rates because the person is without context. Nowyour reps got to be ready to go in hot right because the person hasa seem the email from you to have some contexts about what it is yourbrand does. So you got to be able to go and you got tobe perfectly equipped when you start the conversation. But that is the number one thing. You should start with a call, all it up with the email sameday and now so and again. He Derek mentioned it, but wecall that in the business a double tap. So that's some inside baseball for you. That is a little inside baseball. In Toto talked about triple tap.Is using social in there as well, and so it you're just trying tobe empathetic. I think that's the thing people don't get about trying multiplechannels is don't be dogmatic. Be Pragmatic. I want to touch them in whateverinbox, whatever channel is the easiest for them respond, because all Iwant is a conversation, and so a double tap gives them the opportunit bookthat can't get the phone call perfect, there's an email on their inbox andyou can point back to it or vice versa. The second one was don'tbe so damned robotic. I think this is a big one. Oftentimes Ihear talk companies every few days who are doing an eight by eight, whichis great, and what they mean is double tap on Day one, doubledouble tap on Day three, double tap on Day five, double tap onDay seven, and it's the idea of you're hitting eight touches or over thatquick effect when you're facing up by one day. What a research shows isyou should try to have ten touches in the first ten days and then fromthere you begin expanding out the amount of...

...time between your touches, because here'sthe thing. You have come at them like a spider Marque at this point. You mean if you get them been times, it's ten days. Youare on them like a wet blanket. And you know, I heard acomedian one time Zay, I don't know whether I'm being hugged or held down, so I can't get away. At at this point you were holding themdownce that, and that's not what you wanted to experience. But you're tryingto be pleasantly persistent, not like a stalker with their bunny in the boiler, right, and so you have to you sort of slow it down alittle bit. you start expanding the time between your cadences, excuse me,between your touches, so that you're giving them time to breathe and you're stilldelivering value out of content. You aren't going along with them. That's areally important point. Research shows that the average REP knocks off after two,two touches. So serious decisions, and to be fair, that's the averagethat I mean. Some we're doing three and a lot are doing one,and so which the idea is? You know you want hit him ten timesand ten days, but you want to keep going. You don't stop itand eight by eight. You don't stop at ten by ten. You wantto continue to hit them over the span of the next sixty days with messagingthat is is broken out, that grows gradually, the intervals grow between,but still continue to serve them and continue to touch them over time. Butyou just you don't want to be every three days. You want to beevery one day, every two days. You just don't want to. Thatlooks mechanical and people don't want mechanical at this point. They want a mechanicalthey'd have marketing automation instead of sales trips. That's interesting that you say that,because maybe after the ten by ten sort of what you're saying is handingback to marketing for traditional nurturing. But you're saying maybe there's a difference betweenkind of marketing drips and sales trips. Yeah, there is. You know, you lose the digital fingerprints. You see, you know the in thefrom address, the Anti spooping stuff that says it looks like it's from Sambut it's sent by a Marquetto mail and it's like that's not really from Sam, or the unsubscribed links in there a part of. We coined the phrasefaking sincerity, and I'll say you that, a decade later, I'm a littleembarrassed by what up for what fake sincerity was was it was drips thatlooked like they were from the Sales Rep, that we optimized the look like theywere coming from out book and that we were. Then, you know, people would have a aust deal and we would sort of deliver this inpersonal hey, I know you're using insert competitor name. Here's some reasons peopleare switching and some very here's a brand new blog posts, like's not abrand new black post at blog post ten years old. That thing is isin black and white. It's so old. But if they were sort of theseautomated programs, but seller, what buyers demand now is not fake sincerity. was will since there. What you'll see is if the REP continues todo it, they can continue to personalize, they can continue to be relevant.Like if your reps aren't following people on linkedin up to connect with them, because there is no option. For I'm a sales rep who was talkingthe crap out of this part. I had not an option, only ten. But if you follow them and they post, something that marketing doesn't knowto say a great article. By the way, look to what you weredoing. I agree. They don't know to do that, but the sellercan, and so if you keep it the hands of the seller longer,it can drive the level of sincerity and authenticity up, something that marketing andmarketing automation just don't have the capability to do. Okay, that makes sense. There a third or dinight? Did you already say the third? Thefirst one was start with a phone call. The second was don't be robotic.Was the third? Maybe, like extended out of the eight by eightor ten by ten and stay engaged over longer periods from got to get pastthe short burst. There was a research study that was done by sales folkand one of the things they found is they did to eight touch cadences.They found that thirty percent of their touches were on the tail part of me, on the back after the cadence. And my perception is had they gonelonger than just think touch as, they would have seen even more success.And so I think it's get past the eight and it's keep going to ten, twelve, fifteen. figure out a way to keep being in that person'sscope of consciousness. That makes sense. I'm curious just about the team andyou know getting providing some market data back to the listeners of the podcast.So you've got a team of fifty. How is that broken out? Yep, so of a way to think about is we have twenty three strs,twenty three commercial as we broke those, we goes into a couple different things. We have are eight, one which is our promoted SDR and I willtell you it's been such a great thing for us because that's ther's already talkedof, the first third of the selling...

...process, and then it's showing themhow to disco, how to Demo, how to negotiate, it's those sortsof things. But they've been such a great feeder system for us and wekeep them in that a one role for six months and we had make themit some revenue numbers, and then we move in to an aetwo role,which is a higher te higher base, and then they're they're often running fromthere. So so twenty three and twenty three, and then we've got onesales engineer. You know, our we sold a sales people, so itneeds to be sales proof and so we don't have an army of sales engineersdoing demos. It's our reps. they use it every day and they knowhow to talk about the value that it provides to our customers. And thenwe've got directors on the AE side, and so there are first line managers. We you know the old linkedin rule. We want to give him the mostprestigious sounding title that we possibly can with it. Want to be everleave, but if they do, we want to make sure they're better forhaving been with us. And then we've got managers on the the SCR side. So ae one you expecting to produce for revenue and they stay there forsix months. Is there a revenue expectation within the first one to two months? I guess my question is what's the sale cycle? And you ever seeit where SDRs are kind of holding onto opportunities and anticipation of promotion so thatthey can have a few quick wins when they get promoted? So a greatquestion. We actually tell them to do that. It so, but it'snot hold onto them. So in their last month as an SDR, wethen say that you're going to begin getting demo started and we're going to dois we're going to let you pick the last five. So they're quote isfifteen, and so they source ten for the team and they get the lastfive for them and we always sound them like, well, you make it. The premo one is meeting number one. You're a long way from knowing whatto say to them and so you got to send that over. Andso we believe that's going to happen. We know that's going to happen.So it's like Wi fi gravity on that. Just tell them that they will besourcing for themselves. So we're eight ones don't get any outbound SDR coverage. And from an inbound perspective, we see a lot of smaller companies thatcome inbound and we want to service those. You know, they're not necessarily ourtarget market, but they are a great learning ground for our wants.And so eight ones will get the benefit of inbounds coming in. So theyhave a twenty three days silling cycle on it. Bounce. It's super quickand there's there's not a ton of meet on the bound. That's fine.It's the experience that they're getting is huge. And then from there we also havean outbound prospecting expectation that they've got to go out. It is amatter of fact our a he's also have an outbound prospecting expectation. So there'snobody in our company who doesn't prospect. Our SDRs do it, but theyare not the only ones who out there hustling to make meetings happen. Area's on thirty percent of their own pipeline as well? Huh, thirty percent? Those a number. That was the then my next question and then oneof my last question just under the structure of the team. So one toone is interesting, right. So one SDR to one a. what's theAE quota and are you doing it monthly quarterly? And you'll and is ittotal contract value? Is At r? How you guys thinking about it?Yeah, and so. So we think about it in terms of rr,not the soy TCB, although we do optimize for multi year contracts. Soour reps carries, our commercial reps carry six hundred thousand dollar quotum and it'swe're not asking them to split the atom, but it's a good sized quota.Particulate through tee it. So our if you think about our percentage thatwe spent on sales and marketing it's well within what the PC's like to seewhat the value would expect. So that was a quota question. Give methat one. I'm sorry, I would only waste the so well, onequestion is so it's six Hundredzero, which is fifty k a month. Yeah, I think accelerators monthly, quarterly, annually. How do I if Iwant to get into the bonus? How the time that out? That's agreat question. So quarterly, although I think on a very monthly cadence,and we've done this all the way back since the part on days. I'lltell you that I think sales fundamentals haven't changed that much in the last decade. Things like like metrics and conversion rates and just how much pipe coverage youneed to not gotten dramatically different. So my thought processes is hard for therep to make the quarter if they don't make the month. We want tocontinue to drive every quarter toward the quarterly number. And so you know weI considered to be a failure if we miss a monthly number, but thereps are in sinnivized on quarterings. Makes Sense. All right, we're almostout of time. So first of all, thank you so much, Derek.You've been amazing. We would like to reserve a few minutes to sortof call out some of your favorite things. So, first of all, what'sin your text act? Obviously Sales...

Loft, obviously sales force, maybepart dot, but what are some other great tools that you're using to makeyour team more effective? Yeah, so all three of those are in there, which is a very perceptive I tell you. The one that we loveis ever straying and so really, really powerful. I it's able to bubbleup companies should be calling based on propensity scoring. It's able to bubble up, look a bike companies. And one thing to help drive relevancy, asit can say, Hey, you're currently you know, I'm calling on ahealthcare organization, because here's three other healthcare organizations you work with, so thatyou can then name drop the old or drop this right in there, youknow, in the email, to be able to drive relevancy and personalization there. So it's really powerful in that videyard. VIDEARD so good. How much areyou embedding video into your cadences? Is it right out of the bend? For vidiard, you have to every rep has to sort of record theirown video from their desktop. Is that right? But they're also we haveto you can do some marketing produced videos, but I mean you know that againcan be done by marketing automation. So why do you need a Repdoing it? You know marketing automation can do it for cheaper and with fewerspelling ares as far as I'm concerned. And so we do have reps recordtheir own video. What we do is we use it is the third emailtouch, so we's in a really personal email one. We then bubble upor reply to that email. Is Our second email touch, and then thethird is a video. What's found is it if the reps are on camerafor step one? It takes a larger amount of time, stressing, toresearch, find something relevant and then sort of say those words into the camera. So we like going with the personal email first and the video email third. One of the things in that sales fall our sales folk study that Ireferenced earlier was the idea that email one usually has one of your worst conversionrates, but so often we send our very best message of that because theperson's never heard from you before, and it particularly in our industry. Theyknow their sales team is are reaching out more than twice. So when theyget an email and it's even if it is relevant right, probably not goingto ever hear from this rep again. And if you do get them asecond time, you actually that's your highest number of conversions is on the secondtouch. That's why we didn't necessarily want to burn a video. And stepone is that there is people are skeptical that you're going to hit them thesecond or third time. How long is the video? Last question on videos. So the email subject line is a thirty seven second video for person and, based on some research from videyard, including the word video in there actuallycauses open rates skyrocket. They're not all thirty seven seconds, truth than advertisement, which we shoot to keep him under a minute, because it's like,where's the birds of at that? They've got time to watch you just opineon and on, on and on on. It's like just say somethings that sayit concise. A something that I heard on a Webinar and I wouldsell you that after fifteen years of sales, I literally was dumbfounded by because I'mso dumb and I just what I realized I've Dune founding some dumb instep one, we research the person and we write a personal email one,and in my world it was always the voicemail you leave would be hey,I'm Derek with company and we provide by you. Probably why not say there'sexact same words on the voicemail, or vice versa. Right. And sowhat Stephen Brodie overmal soft, you just got acquired by sales for, saidhe does is he said that reps respect so much time trying to like theSol whity to say or whatever it's like. Just read the freaking day one emailthat you personalized. I understand you drove revenue bias and it just hada work anniversary. Whatever the compelling events are. Just say those words onthe video. It's the idea that once you dig up some nugget, youthink his maining field that will trot them actually use it in every channel possible. And I when I heard that about van. I have given people voicemailscripts for years and how stupid is that? The thing that they said in theemail that they wrote, or vice versa. Right, if you're good. I don't know. I don't know if it's as stupid as you're saying. I mean maybe different messages. The medium is part of how you communicatethe message. Maybe there's a message in writing. That's not quite the samething as saying it out loud, but it's the take your point. Where'ssomething that your influencers you know, if we want to go out and goon Linkedin and find you know your perspective, your point of view on the oneor two Great v piece of sales that you've interacted with. You justmentioned Stephen Brodie from mealsoft. Who else are the people that you look upto in the industry or that you talk about? My spirit animal is ScottLease. I want to be him. PROWOWEEN. The guy is a brittenstud he is a grinder. He told...

...the story at outbound engine that theywent from a team of fifteen when he took over two three and two weeksbecause of the fact that he wanted people to be account and he wanted peopleto grind, but at the same time he didn't just throw them out intothe deep end in the pool and then drag a bunch of drowned bodies outof pool. He spent a ton of time and enable and every day ismanager responsible for an able but daily, multiple times a day, to makethe reps better what they were doing, and I think he walks that Dell. Get Balance Up. I exp be you to always do more with andlet me help you get there. He is a person who demands will andis helping improve skill every day. So I love him for that. Heis awesome. Is this, this is the guy the step of sales fromquality as that right? Yep, Yep, he's moved on from albound engine toquality. But yeah, he he is awesome. And then Mark Robertsfrom up spot. He's more old buddy of mind the guys, a scientificseller. I mean he's the guys might freaking engineer. That I what theguy's even doing selling is beyond me. What are we? The nicest guy. This smart. Now he now he likes you. Is An HBS.So it's am I. He's always in the Harvard ecosystem. Don't, don'tsay hbscus A hove. That's how they say it. I assume that hewears a ejaculate patches on and he's got a stay. He's smoking a pipewhen he's doing his left. I don't know if any of that true,but I perceived that in my mind's eye. I think you're right. He definitelyhas a pocket square. He was always very doative her exactly. Andthen Bill Bench. You know, I will tell you that the marketing automationguys, we all grew a space together and we would have literally done theother one in always. But I grew a great amount of admiration for thoseguys. He's left Marquetto is now pindough and his leading sales over there.But bill is someone who had a great ability to scale a team. SoI think a mark is being the science guy. Think of bills, thebutts and seat driving productivity, a guy who's instant upside from a sales perspective. And then Scotts be in the person. That's just he's working with new sellersand he is getting them product. So those guys are all boss asfar as I'm sorted. And you say I'm going to give a Samles bookfor you. I love a good shameless factor. It was blood. Weloved the since your time and Geogb I will tell you there's nobody better buta relationships, no one better scaling the team. And so I'm going toput you on the list and it's well to Sur and so you know Iwill say those four. That's why I really please and well, it lookslike my check Claire this month. So thank you for accepting my payment.Now to throw a y'all in there, so those of you used to alongat home, that'll be a yeager ball. One or two last questions. Oneone, as you've been dropping a lot of books. So first ofall, that's one of my favorite things about any kind of professional and actuallywe were at a firesye chat with in your graven a collective last night andBob Ni from Jami equity was saying, you know, are you a lifelonglearn? It sounds like you are. So if I'm want to be DerekGrant one day and I want to read a couple of books that help shapeyour professional career, what are some of the books that you want to reference? Yeah, you know, I think for any people have the opportunity waybetter than me. It's the most important thing. But just some found Ithink there's foundational stuff. One that I've always liked to spend selling. Ithink you can also put into the just sales fundamental books challenger. I thinkyou can also put in their Joshua principle. I think those are all three booksare sort of found national from a sales perspective, but always felt likeI hate it when people just read it's on a sales books, because here'sthe thing. If anyone had truly figured out the thing to win every deal, they be sitting on a yacht South Scifi right now. They wouldn't tellit to you because they be afraid you'd use an a deal and take themoff their yacht. And so I think people who are who are writing booksthinking you can take fundamental things from it, but I don't think that anyone hasgot the I'd be pragmatic about the sales books that I read and whatI took away from them, versus being dogmatic. I don't think anybody's gotthe exact formula. And you think about even challenge or challenger was from atime where the economy was in the tank and so you needed to go inand grab the person by the years and people to challenge you. Now theyhave challenged your customer because the market conditions of shifted. So I think sooften it's read things, understand them, file them away, access them appropriatelyand don't assume that any one person has...

...got the answer, because I don'tthink that's true. And then I love things like looks like freakonomics. Youknow, all three of those books are great. I love anything by MichaelLewis. I'm listening to undoing project right now, which I'll kind of Danielcomment right. What's that? Yeah, Tommy, that's exactly right. Thatthe common scale. What are the way that the the Israeli army determined wherewhat people's shrinks weren't where they work? The guys a boss? Yeah,have they read? Thinking fast and slow? I'm not really think fast slay.That is what I want to I want to read of that influence backingWolf of Wall Street on my phone right now to listen to, but nowI need to get thank you, bessel up for good things. Yeah,it's amazing. Two last questions. Life Motto, guiding principles, any likeone aphorism or something you want to share with the young people out there howthey should approach their life? So we were I was on boarding reps rightbefore I came and jumped on this podcast with you. One of the thingswe talked about is this purpose, because our companies of values driven company.We've got our five core values and you know, values to a company arelike purpose to a person. It's sort of the lens with through which everythingis looked at. And I guess I would say that your purpose will changeover life seizes of life will change it. But today is the father of twogirls under three. Better of fact, one just turned three last Wednesday,so I guess I can know whatever say that of two girls under threeyears and one month. My purpose is shifted now at this point of beinga great dad, excuse me, being a great husband, being a greatdad and being a great leader in that order. But you know, ifyou to talk to that me ten years ago, would have been to builda great company, to be part of the part I'd experience, to getstart up guying. So I would challenge everyone out there to think about whatyour purpose is, and you know Covey in seven habits talks about that.Really what your purpose is is you should think about your life, start withyou in mind and live like you want someone to read your yours. Youone day, and I will tell you that I hope when someone standing atthe the next time I wear a tie, because that Sam I'm not wearing atime less, I'm in a box. That's someone to make you were tied, Derek, maybe we're all easily. It sounds constrict about be like Ihave a really weak person trying to strangle me. The next time I'mwearing a tie, which is when somebody standing over my casket. I hopethat they will say that I was a I was great to my wife Kelly, that I was I was there and available for those girls, because,I mean, I could drive toward money and be the best absolute dad theworld. They could have all the things and never have a relationship with me. So I want to do that now. That's new in the last three years, because I have them. Then, I hope, great leader. Ihope people will look back and say that I was I was influential intheir sales career. I've always loved work with young reps because one day I'mgoing to be the person with I for sales manager, that I would beman. He see yellow us about soon. So and I'll be. That isso be it's I'm excited for that and so I hope that people willthat will be something I would do as well. But I hope that's whatthey say about one off when I'm gone. Well, you know, I thinkit's also beautiful what you just said, just that you put yeah, Kelly, your wife, above the I like the order. I guess I'llsay that I like the order because can't really be a great father if youdon't have a good marriage and a good foundation. So that's inspiring. It'shard to be their form. So I miss grant is the queen of thecastle. I was out number two. One, two, one, I'mdefinitely outnumber two, three. Yeah, see, Hee's the number one priority. Mrs Grant is the number one blower. Girls focus on our reals. Well, bless her heart, as they said. All right, so youguys just raise fifty million bucks. I'm sure you're hiring. If people wantto get in touch with Derek Grant, what is your preferred mechanism? Canthey how should they reach out to you? Yeah, absolutely, so get meup on Linkedin. You can send me an email. It's just DerekDot grant. It sales offcom. So DPRK, Nott, GRA A andT at sales offcom. Let me know you're looking, because May and weare higher in so we don't love to have you on the team. We'dlove to have the opportunity out with anyone in this audience that is doing thingsto grow their sales career. I mean your audience is exactly the folks thatwe don't have to talk to. That's fantastic, Derek. Thank you somuch. You've been a real pleasure. It's been great to talk to youand I can't wait to see you, I'm sure, in person sometime soon. Done and done my sis in the city, so I'll stopped and aggravateyou while I'm up there. All right, you're always welcome to it's not anaggravation. All Right, by Hey,...

...folks Sam's corner. Really enjoyed thatconversation with Derek grant from salesloft on the day that they announced their fiftymillion dollar, seriously fundraise, so congratulations to them. I really liked Derek'scomments about cadences. I think there's a lot of tactical information there that youcan clean so Derek's research and the and the research from the folks at saleslofttells us that the traditional cadence of an eight by eight or ten by tenshould continue on past those ten days or eight days. Eight by eight meanseight touch points in eight days, but it's typically two touch points on dayone, three, five and seven. The other thing that he said veryspecifically was always start with a phone call. Start with a phone call followed byan email that references the voice mail, voicemail that you may have just left. I think that's really good feedback and it's always important to underscore therelevance, that continued relevance, of the use of the telephone and setting upmeetings and generating interest from the prospects that we're selling to. So never letgo of that telephone. The power of the human voice remains strong with that. Thanks for listening. We'll talk to you next time and check out theshow notes, see upcoming guests and play more episodes from our incredible lineup ofsales leaders. Visit Sales Hackercom podcast. You can also find the sales hackingpodcast on itunes or Google play or anywhere that you consume your podcasts. Ifyou enjoyed this episode, please share with your peers on Linkedin, twitter orelsewhere. Special thanks again to this month's sponsors at Gong. See More Gong, dot io forward sales hacker. And finally, if you want to getin touch with me, you can find me on twitter at Sam f Jacobsor on Linkedin at linkedincom and slash Sam f Jacobs. SEE YOU NEXT TIME.

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