The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

8. Build Your Sales Pipeline with the Best Sales Cadences w/ Derek Grant

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

On this episode of the Sales Hacker Podcast, we talk with Derek Grant, VP of Sales from SalesLoft about building a successful pipeline with the best sales outreach strategies. Tune in now!

One, two, one, three, three. Before we get started, we want to thank this month's sponsor introducing Gong Dot Io, the number one conversation intelligence platform for sales. Gong helps you generate more revenue by having better sales conversations. It automatically captures and analyzes your team's conversations so you can transform your team into quota shattering supersellars. Visit Gong DOT IO forwards sales hacker to get in on the action and see it liest. And now on with the show. Everybody, welcome to the sales hacker podcast. It is your host, Sam Jacobs. We've got a great one today. We've got Derek Grant, who leads sales lost commercial sales organization. Let me quickly give you Derek's bio and then we're going to jump into the interview. So Derek has delivered hockey stick growth and earn the number seven spot. Actually, this is sales laft on the Lloyd's fast five hundred fastest growing companies, by helping over a fifteen hundred companies deliver a better sales experience to their customers while maximizing revenue. Prior to joining sales loft, Derek served as the architect of part of sales process, leading the organization from pre revenue start up to a hundred million dollar exit to exact target subsequently acquired by sales force. Derek is a native son of Florida, holds a bachelor's degree in Comms from Florida State and is supervised by three high powered ladies, his wife Kelly and his baby girls, Riley and race. Welcome, Derek Sam thanks a lot for having me on here. You know, this will be probably the first sales hacker podcast that has ever been turned into a drinking game, because you're north of the Mason Dixon Line, I'm south of it, and so every time that I say y'all or bliss, they're harder reference corn bread. Based on my two roots, I feel like everyone should have to take a drink of something. So it's going to be a lot of fun and I'm I'm excited. You'd happen. Well, that's fair and as a consequence, you know, we're recording this before noon, so we encourage people to wait at least till afternoon before they start pouring themselves a shot of Jamison, which is my preferred drink, a quick counterbalance so that you can't drink all day if you don't get started in the morning. That's a good point, and we can be productive while drinking during the day. You know, it's a myth that you can't be productive. You just got to make sure you have company. So anyway, Derek, you're the VP of commercial sales. As I mentioned, you work for salesloft. Tell us about sales loft very quickly. Yeah, so salesloft is a technology company here in Atlanta that overly sales forcecom and it helps you codify your go to market strategy. You know, so often we hire reps who are hid on the disc profile or high on the high on the disc profile their dominance or influencers, but they miss some of the follow up, some of the process centric things, and sales offt is really there to help you define your play and help reps be able to adhere to it and to be able to drive forward to the things going to drive the most revenue for their business. And so you know, news today. We just announced the fifteen million dollar funding round from insight and also linkedin. So, so so powerful. It's a grow eight growing space. It is the next half to have for technology companies. Are Out there and I think it will move out of the early adoptors stage of just being a tech centric platform and move into more traditional industries. But you know, there's two types of companies once who are going to buy sales engagement this year and use it as an offensive advantage, and the ones who all buy it next year, who were just going to be playing defense. So very cool space, validated by the investors and really honored to be will congratulations on the funding and so give us a rough sense. Obviously you know the specifics or private and confidential, etcetera, etc. But how, roughly, how big is sales loft from an are our perspective? So we do keep that a little bit close to the best. What I would say is that that a company's growth through trajectory from two to twenty million is one of the number one indicators of how they'll fare in the public market. I can tell you that we did it in an incredibly fast amount of time. Also, the the business insider article that talks about this today mentions eight hundred percent growth in the last two years, and so we've had the opportunity to grow. It's the break neck pace and great testament to marketing, market timing and a break products team bus. Well, are in our...

...mutual friend Kevin o'malley, runs runs marketing for you guys. So I think marketing is done an amazing job. At sales lost, so we will take that to imply north of twenty million, which is fantastic. And then how big is your team? So my team is fifty across strs and a's and sales engineers and managers and so forth. So yeah, good sized team. So now let's hear a little bit more about Derek Grant. Beside beyond the accent, how long have you been in startup landed? How did you get into sales, specifically, because you are particularly when it comes to like start sales leaders outside of the traditional hubs of New York City in the bay area. You're one of the folks that a lot of us know abouts. How do you find your way into sales? I'm an accidental seller. There's something to be said for persistence, and so I worked the night shift at a company and Tallahassee during my time at Florida State and did tech support and from there I parlay that into a training Gig at the company and from there I got into project management and from there. Was One day walking down the hallway and the sales manager stuffs head out the door and said Hey, you want to do sales? And I was in Grad school at the time getting up what I'm sure would have not been a super valuable communications masters because we're doing communications for free right now. For Free, is there no money? And it's Sam and so he convinced me to take a job on the road. I got a really premote territory for selling technology. I got the Midwest, so I got Iowa and Kansas, north South Dakota, I meant the places where you really think of technology being taking up by people, and had a great experience. It was this with Philicon Prairie, I think that's what they call it. Maybe there's I don't even know if there's silicon out there, just a prairie. We're corn stalks out number of people substantially, but what a great learning ground for me. The opportunity to sell enterprise technology to government, which was a different sort of thing because government buys by RFP. So it's less about just grass roots selling as as much to do with your ability to fill up paperwork and sort of talking process and rigger and then a really weird stop. For one year I became the chief sales guy to psychiatric hospital. Wow, and a lot of people have said, I think you actually were a patient. There's like no, no, I was working there, pretty sure. So you were selling crazy people on the opportunity to come to your hospital. That's exactly right. If we actually are, we it was. I didn't spend too much time with the crazy people, but with psychiatrist, therapist inpatient psychiatric facilities and was convincing them to send their their loved ones to us to say for anywhere from thirty to ninety days and talk about being heartbroken. I I saw some things that just absolutely still to this day score meet up technology. When it messes up, nobody dies, no families or torn apart, and what I saw there was just I just didn't have the mental make up, the strength to be able to live long in that field. And so in the time I met my wife, met her and Drug Rehab and it turned out she worked for a drug Rehab and or for a psych hospital. So I was trying to get referrals out of her. Most people kind of pause when they hear that I met my wife and Drug Rehab Anyway. Well, good, because it seems possible right have. I've been in a few ever patient they're sort of like the psy hospital, and I thought maybe you're just an oversharer, and I'm like, okay, yeah, and you are very real part of the interview. All of a sudden share that. Yeah, that you don want to share that. But she convinced me after that year to move to a PLANTA and I was super lucky to have been on craigslist at the time. If you're going craigslist now, you're probably not looking for a job at it. Back in two thousand and seven you can find a job. It's instead of like a casual encounter, I suppose. And found part on on there and was the fourth employee part up two thousand and seven. You are the fourth employee at part on. Crazy to think about. Wow, the first non technical and we started there the Tuesday after Labor Day. Who Do we move my life to Atlanta to be part of this fudgling start up and was pretty sure that we'd be out of business by thanks going we people had wanted. We didn't know what the message was, the product was not feature rich and we just sort of kept at it over time and we grew and interestingly, and for anyone who's out there right now and thinks about the the role of Bluck, you know good great talks about how bluck is something super important. The downturn of the economy in two thousand and eight actually was an important reason that that part up was able to be successful, because they wanted an Elok what type of platform, but...

...they didn't necessarily have the resource to help. And so you take the women's that come at you, you tournament to eliminate, and so there's some interesting things there that we were able to persevere and endure and ultimately get all by exact target and ultimated sales force. I mean whole what a cool experience to have seen it from for employees to she's had a team of two hundred sellers globally about the time we got done, by the time I left. Just incredible to see the growth and they are killing it now. I'm so proud of them. I mean that's a really interesting story and there's so many folks that are listening right now that are in that stage where maybe it's not for people, but it's a small number. First of all, it's amazing as a sales lead. You you made it through, because so many times, you know, every CEO is going to hire an executive coach to tell them that they got a layer. It's either the executive coach or the investors saying, well, I don't know if Derek's the guy for ten to twenty million, but he might be a guy for zero to ten. So how did you make it through all of those different transitions and what are the lessons that you took from the small place where you're almost preproduct market fit to the place where you know you're getting acquired by exact target and ultimately running a global team of two hundred? The truth of the matter is that had we had VC investment, I wouldn't have been able to have lasted the entire time. That that's such an interesting thing that you think about as the head of sales. If someone puts in tens or, in the case what hap today, fifty million dollars for sales loft, what ends up happening is they want to bring in someone that's done it before. Well, when you're an unfunded start up, they can't afford someone who's done it before, and so they were stuck with me. But you know, one of the really cool things they did to get me excited about the company was they built out a plant. And I remember when I started in two thousand and seven. Sam. You're going to laugh at this because it's one months rent in New York, forty twozero dollars a year, my very first year at art. If you believe that, well you can say in my bathroom for thirty twozero a month I could maybe get a like a corner of your closet, I just think. But what they said was here's we're going to do. We're going to hit this revenue milestone, we're going to hire two reps and we're going to hit this next revenue milestone, we're going to hire four reps. and affects me. They built out the plan that allowed me to grow incrementally with that business show's Army of one. I was the VP of me, you know, the chief bottle Washer of five dollar title and a fifty cent job. And then we got a couple reps and then we got a couple more and a couple more and then we got to the point we needed our first manager, and so we hired are we promoted Jordan racky into that position and we hired a few more reps and a few more and a few more, and then we needed another manager we pout doing in that spot. So we just kind of grew over time and so, you know, I probably couldn't have done and if the me ten years ago was in a VC backs company and they just invested a lot of money, there's a likelihood that I would have not had the opportunity to have the experience that I had. And so the grind and the heart ache and the hardship that we had to endure. What is we were competing against Parketto and Elko and hub spot. Really, I guess all four actually ipowed to do it as an unfunded company. You know, was crazy and there were a lot of lessons farm there. You know, he asked about different lessons learned. I think I've found that there's a difference between doing managing the doers and managing the managers, and that was something I didn't understand at the time. But just the different skill sets when aren't what do you think the different skill sets are? Particularly you know, the thing that was always a challenge for me was going from managing the doers to managing the managers. How what's your point of view on that? That's a huge one. I think that there has to be really distinct role clarity is to what it is that they want to do. I can tell you that that during my time at hard on, one of the things that I did was was I ended up. I would run the end around of my managers and it's just like such a bad thing to do, but because I knew the raps and reps for me and I'd go to the reps and you know, if there's a deal, I need to know where. It wasn't the manager, it's called them direct and so I struggled with that. And so something we've done sales off to is really focus on role definition and I owe it to my managers and our leaders here year to not go around. If I want to communicate some Superpositi to a rep, I take every right to do that, but I need to work through them. They need to have clear KPI's. One of the things I do with our SDR managers today is they have a red, green yellow sheet for each individual rep and what I walk into the everyone saying is, what's wrong? What I'm going to be going to be mad about when I see it. What if you already done to fix...

...it? And so it empowers them to be able to make decisions and more keep me in the blue and if they need help, they know I'm there to jump in on it. But I think it's mean not necessarily going to record to that reper and put arm around and saying, what the Hell, man, we gotta get this done. Come on, I need to see more will out of you, because you've got zero skiell right now. We need to prove it. Case I'm able to sort of keep my rain, my crazy and I guess and and have the managers really use me as a resource rather than me being the person who's down there trying to make it happen. And it's it's hard. I've had a management one time. We talked about different leadership scylet styles, and I found myself in there. I was the paralyzing manager and I was so embarrassed on our right as a crap. What is the paralyzing manager? The person who's always willing to do the thing for them and always ready to give an answer. And what ends up happening is your managers stopped being accountable for you things. They know that you're just going to go to the Reps. the reps can know all if you're out of the office and they need someone to explain what to do on a contract or against the particular better they come to a grinding halt. And it's because I was so wanted to help, I go so wired to help, that by helping so freely, actually really dis empowered all the people that were around me. So I've sort of know my I know my blind spot on that one and I did you learn that based on feed back or you know, it's sort of like self reflection, selfwareeness after the fact. I've heard the analogy of plate spinning, you know, the one of the things that we found whenever week, whenever I had the team a two hundred, was one day I was so involved in all the things that my managers would have handled for me and my director would have handled for me, but because I was so intent on being involved in everything, one day the places just started falling off. I could keep him all spending anymore, and I think I realized it, maybe a little too late when by, you know, personal quality of life went way down. I can say I was work every night till Zen. I drink myself to sleep, but wake up in the morning said on the back porch call London pound a pack of cigarettes. It just like, Oh, I would just a horrible sob and it was because of the fact that I tried to be in too many places at one point. So when you ask the question of like, how did I realize that? I realized that when my life it almost hit it had hit a sort of a professional rock bottom, when things were professionally, we were still driving revenue, but man, I just the I was miserable. I was a miserable sob and it wasn't anybody's fault. It wasn't sales force, fallow and parducts fault. Was An anybody's fault, in my fault because I couldn't stay in my lane and I wanted to help so much that I was a mild wide and itch deep and could help anybody. I just did become this sort of Bocker to things getting done. Talk about reflection. I my wife works in a substitute treatment center, which is back to the joke of Minier and druggery have, but I think in druggery have you need to have a rock bottom, and I can tell you that I that was a once you have a real sort of moment of crisis and just a moment of real strong long inside of head. Wins at this point. It is like a hurricane coming at you. I had the opportunity to go back and take a little bit of an inventory and there's a lot of things I would have done differently and I'm trying to do here at sales off which is be helpful but not necessarily have to do all the things. Yeah, and I think that transition is tough for I don't think it's just you. I think it's tough for a lot of people because I think sometimes people feel like work is the act of like the tactics, is the act of working on the deal themselves or being on the phone called themselves, and when you have to step back and do all of that through the organization and through your management layers, I think sometimes it doesn't feel like work to people and they wonder what they're doing all day because their meetings until six and then they go home and that doesn't feel quite as productive as actually having gotten the Docu sign signed. You know it. You lose the thrill with the A drilline rush is being in the room and it's it is interesting that is you pull back. You're no longer the person leading the group up the hill. You can still lead from the front, but you're now the person who's back a few levels and and you're up on the hill and you're able to see everything that's going on and really be able to command the battlefield. But you have to take your gratification from other places, you know, because it's no longer about being the person that helps drive the deal over one and I think all of us, and sales are a little bit of glory hounds. That's not meant to be ugly, and you may say not me, but I mean like it's fun to win. It's fun to be in the room when you win. It's fun to see the whites going for a grand new rep you can't believe that you said the thing and it worked and here you are with the contract. It's awesome and it's just it's...

...you have to find foot film and I think an other of places, whether it's coaching on boarding, whether it's helping doing leadership development, whether it's any more time and strategy or even, you know, being locked into a room. From a marketing perspective, to help refind the message, I think you can't be the Adrenalin junk you. My ex brother in law was a navy pilot and when he got to be forty he's not able to go out and fly on the squads anymore. So then he becomes part of a training Battie and then they don't get to fly anymore. Now he's now the EXO, he's commanding officer, because you know, over time, the things that you used to do or not the things you should be doing later in your career. And it was interesting that that I've sort of seen that happen in my own career. As much I want to be the adrenaline junkie at the stick driving the the deal Ford, that's not really where I should be doing other things. And then I know is now sort of have a desk job at a sales desk shop. It's cool, but it is it's a different sort of thing every day, I agree. And then there's some of us where some people get the reverse feeling, which is sort of a weird way of saying that some people feel like they weren't quite ever meant for the individual contributors stuff, but they knew they needed to do it, but they always felt like maybe they felt more comfortable at a death job, overseeing the battlefield, etc. You've been doing sales for quite a while. You know this is a question a lot of people ask that. You mentioned disc profiles. When you think about the qualities of a human being that make them effective sellers and effective account executives, what do you think stands out? So every sales leader out there's listening to this is going to hire the first day or the first guy who walks across, because they tell an incredible story. They tell a story about strong arm. You know, the old joke was that. You know, they throw their mother on a flight of stairs to get a contract sign. That your classic t wife of the Party, never met a stranger, classic eye, and those the people you wanted. Sales. I'll tell you that the best seller I've ever seen operate was a seat, was a compliant. They call it now something different, because millennials have ruined everything. Sorry, Millennius, they haven't ruined everything when they're going to mend gun laws in our country, so that's a good thing. Anyway, they're going to bend everything and they truly are changed in the world and I will say that anybody who doesn't get them should think about it harder, because they are their purpose full and their intentional and they want to be connected deep with two things I you know, is I sort of kid about the monials ruining things like you can't call it compling anymoday. I have called conscientious, but this guy was boring to watch work. He's not particularly likeable, so he wasn't an eye. He had some DNM ingusted everything perfect. You told you'd have any thing by Friday at five o'clock. He had it to you thirty. I never missed the follow up. He was just absolutely incredible. It's gotch tripling quote and he doesn't look like a prototype. Sounding like holy smokes, we should hire an army of season. We did. We went out, we started profiling people like I who wants to seller, who's in an influencer, get them out of her and we hired three sees, Brad Christie, and we had our guy, Kebin and Brad and Christie. Incredibly, they were so thorough. They would know the name of the person's dog, they knew their favorite color, they knew where they've gone to school and what the score of the game was that they gone to last based on Instagram, which was in a scramp the time, but like whatever. And they call what happened when the voice and that's two hours of you that you're cane back. So we subsequently Shit can all of our seas excepted. They were terrible. They're horrible. That like great for support, great for accounting, awesome and Lesie, let's high them in our accounting part. They were terrible at sales and so but I do think that your d's in your eyes, in strength finders, they talk about balconies and basements and the idea that if you're really strong something, that there's a blind spot you don't make off the suns realize it. The sort of classic one is like great communicator, bad listener. And so you hire your D's and eyes, but you have to be wary of what their blind spots are and they're not a low hanging fruit sort of machine, that they're not necessarily super intentional a lot of times, and so love them for what they're good for, but then know they are blind spots and be willing to hold them accountable to do the things will help them be sincere and thorough and their territory and their approach to customers, because you don't want hire seas for sales. If you find one and they're good their Unicorn, but you don't hire those. You want your Das and eyes, but just be honest about what they're bad at to. Okay, well, that's good advice. One of the things that we're not trying to pitch sales loft on...

...this call. But at the same time, I think you know, when I was down in the Lanta recently for rainmaker, you guys had a lot of really interesting research about sort of I guess I call them foundational cadences, something like the best practices about how to reach out to prospects, how to get a meeting and how to effectively. So what insights have you glean from, you know, the labs beat, from the boys in the back and the research that you've been doing on the best and most effective of ways to get meetings? We have an incredibly bright group of data scientists. Now, they are not going to go out and get a date with someone of the opposite sex, you know, but they will pull a calculator out of their pocket into a math equation in just a split second, bus their heart. There's a drink for everyone out there, and so I think that's the only that's the first drink we've had. So people are still relatively sober at that. You know, I need, they need to ramp it up a little bit to use. But yet those guys are great. And you know, because sales off sits the intersection of phone, email, social, all these different touch types and touch patterns that people are using, we were able to go in and take a look and we were able to do this thing to the called derived cadence, as we have a thing that the call cadence coach, and it's effectively going out and looking all these interactions over the last four years and giving you an idea of what might be an optimal cadence for your business. That's the one thing that on the sales side we encounter. It's like, yeah, I know I need a cadence. What do you think of this one? It's like, I don't know, I don't Know Your Business, I don't know your buyer, your messaging could stink, I got I don't know. You know it. Theoretically, I can tell you that companies like Toko say that fifteen touches is the right number of touches, but there's a lot lost in translation there. And so what we did is we looked at all these two hundred million interactions and we found a few things that are crazy important and simple tweaks that everyone here can make to their cadences in their go to market process is to be able to be more effective in their communicational prospects. And the first one is start with a phone call. And the very first manager I talked about it hard up was a guy named Jordan racky and he came through our SDR ranks. This is two thousand and eight, and he told me in two thousand and eight to fast forward a decade ago, and you got to dust this memory offen so well, high schedule all my meetings by email. They've been saying it would be. For All the leaders out there who are hearing that. I've been hearing that for a decade and it's like great, what you're doing all by email? Do you got even more time to make phone calls? But it's just like, come on, I don't tell me that, you tell me you do. They say, for this late the call, you know, and what we find is that making a call and following up with the email, doing a double tap, is the number one highest predictor of a high performing cadence. And you may say, well, we don't like to call them day one. It's like, yeah, I get it, but what I can tell is the science says you should. Well, we like to email first and and follow the email up with the calls they have some contexts. Yet totally get it. The data says you should call first. It's not say you shouldn't do an email and a phone call on the same day, but you should be what are you just switch the order and it gives higher connect rates because the person is without context. Now your reps got to be ready to go in hot right because the person has a seem the email from you to have some contexts about what it is your brand does. So you got to be able to go and you got to be perfectly equipped when you start the conversation. But that is the number one thing. You should start with a call, all it up with the email same day and now so and again. He Derek mentioned it, but we call that in the business a double tap. So that's some inside baseball for you. That is a little inside baseball. In Toto talked about triple tap. Is using social in there as well, and so it you're just trying to be empathetic. I think that's the thing people don't get about trying multiple channels is don't be dogmatic. Be Pragmatic. I want to touch them in whatever inbox, whatever channel is the easiest for them respond, because all I want is a conversation, and so a double tap gives them the opportunit book that can't get the phone call perfect, there's an email on their inbox and you can point back to it or vice versa. The second one was don't be so damned robotic. I think this is a big one. Oftentimes I hear talk companies every few days who are doing an eight by eight, which is great, and what they mean is double tap on Day one, double double tap on Day three, double tap on Day five, double tap on Day seven, and it's the idea of you're hitting eight touches or over that quick effect when you're facing up by one day. What a research shows is you should try to have ten touches in the first ten days and then from there you begin expanding out the amount of...

...time between your touches, because here's the thing. You have come at them like a spider Marque at this point. You mean if you get them been times, it's ten days. You are on them like a wet blanket. And you know, I heard a comedian one time Zay, I don't know whether I'm being hugged or held down, so I can't get away. At at this point you were holding them downce that, and that's not what you wanted to experience. But you're trying to be pleasantly persistent, not like a stalker with their bunny in the boiler, right, and so you have to you sort of slow it down a little bit. you start expanding the time between your cadences, excuse me, between your touches, so that you're giving them time to breathe and you're still delivering value out of content. You aren't going along with them. That's a really important point. Research shows that the average REP knocks off after two, two touches. So serious decisions, and to be fair, that's the average that I mean. Some we're doing three and a lot are doing one, and so which the idea is? You know you want hit him ten times and ten days, but you want to keep going. You don't stop it and eight by eight. You don't stop at ten by ten. You want to continue to hit them over the span of the next sixty days with messaging that is is broken out, that grows gradually, the intervals grow between, but still continue to serve them and continue to touch them over time. But you just you don't want to be every three days. You want to be every one day, every two days. You just don't want to. That looks mechanical and people don't want mechanical at this point. They want a mechanical they'd have marketing automation instead of sales trips. That's interesting that you say that, because maybe after the ten by ten sort of what you're saying is handing back to marketing for traditional nurturing. But you're saying maybe there's a difference between kind of marketing drips and sales trips. Yeah, there is. You know, you lose the digital fingerprints. You see, you know the in the from address, the Anti spooping stuff that says it looks like it's from Sam but it's sent by a Marquetto mail and it's like that's not really from Sam, or the unsubscribed links in there a part of. We coined the phrase faking sincerity, and I'll say you that, a decade later, I'm a little embarrassed by what up for what fake sincerity was was it was drips that looked like they were from the Sales Rep, that we optimized the look like they were coming from out book and that we were. Then, you know, people would have a aust deal and we would sort of deliver this in personal hey, I know you're using insert competitor name. Here's some reasons people are switching and some very here's a brand new blog posts, like's not a brand new black post at blog post ten years old. That thing is is in black and white. It's so old. But if they were sort of these automated programs, but seller, what buyers demand now is not fake sincerity. was will since there. What you'll see is if the REP continues to do it, they can continue to personalize, they can continue to be relevant. Like if your reps aren't following people on linkedin up to connect with them, because there is no option. For I'm a sales rep who was talking the crap out of this part. I had not an option, only ten. But if you follow them and they post, something that marketing doesn't know to say a great article. By the way, look to what you were doing. I agree. They don't know to do that, but the seller can, and so if you keep it the hands of the seller longer, it can drive the level of sincerity and authenticity up, something that marketing and marketing automation just don't have the capability to do. Okay, that makes sense. There a third or dinight? Did you already say the third? The first one was start with a phone call. The second was don't be robotic. Was the third? Maybe, like extended out of the eight by eight or ten by ten and stay engaged over longer periods from got to get past the short burst. There was a research study that was done by sales folk and one of the things they found is they did to eight touch cadences. They found that thirty percent of their touches were on the tail part of me, on the back after the cadence. And my perception is had they gone longer than just think touch as, they would have seen even more success. And so I think it's get past the eight and it's keep going to ten, twelve, fifteen. figure out a way to keep being in that person's scope of consciousness. That makes sense. I'm curious just about the team and you know getting providing some market data back to the listeners of the podcast. So you've got a team of fifty. How is that broken out? Yep, so of a way to think about is we have twenty three strs, twenty three commercial as we broke those, we goes into a couple different things. We have are eight, one which is our promoted SDR and I will tell you it's been such a great thing for us because that's ther's already talked of, the first third of the selling...

...process, and then it's showing them how to disco, how to Demo, how to negotiate, it's those sorts of things. But they've been such a great feeder system for us and we keep them in that a one role for six months and we had make them it some revenue numbers, and then we move in to an aetwo role, which is a higher te higher base, and then they're they're often running from there. So so twenty three and twenty three, and then we've got one sales engineer. You know, our we sold a sales people, so it needs to be sales proof and so we don't have an army of sales engineers doing demos. It's our reps. they use it every day and they know how to talk about the value that it provides to our customers. And then we've got directors on the AE side, and so there are first line managers. We you know the old linkedin rule. We want to give him the most prestigious sounding title that we possibly can with it. Want to be ever leave, but if they do, we want to make sure they're better for having been with us. And then we've got managers on the the SCR side. So ae one you expecting to produce for revenue and they stay there for six months. Is there a revenue expectation within the first one to two months? I guess my question is what's the sale cycle? And you ever see it where SDRs are kind of holding onto opportunities and anticipation of promotion so that they can have a few quick wins when they get promoted? So a great question. We actually tell them to do that. It so, but it's not hold onto them. So in their last month as an SDR, we then say that you're going to begin getting demo started and we're going to do is we're going to let you pick the last five. So they're quote is fifteen, and so they source ten for the team and they get the last five for them and we always sound them like, well, you make it. The premo one is meeting number one. You're a long way from knowing what to say to them and so you got to send that over. And so we believe that's going to happen. We know that's going to happen. So it's like Wi fi gravity on that. Just tell them that they will be sourcing for themselves. So we're eight ones don't get any outbound SDR coverage. And from an inbound perspective, we see a lot of smaller companies that come inbound and we want to service those. You know, they're not necessarily our target market, but they are a great learning ground for our wants. And so eight ones will get the benefit of inbounds coming in. So they have a twenty three days silling cycle on it. Bounce. It's super quick and there's there's not a ton of meet on the bound. That's fine. It's the experience that they're getting is huge. And then from there we also have an outbound prospecting expectation that they've got to go out. It is a matter of fact our a he's also have an outbound prospecting expectation. So there's nobody in our company who doesn't prospect. Our SDRs do it, but they are not the only ones who out there hustling to make meetings happen. Are a's on thirty percent of their own pipeline as well? Huh, thirty percent? Those a number. That was the then my next question and then one of my last question just under the structure of the team. So one to one is interesting, right. So one SDR to one a. what's the AE quota and are you doing it monthly quarterly? And you'll and is it total contract value? Is At r? How you guys thinking about it? Yeah, and so. So we think about it in terms of rr, not the soy TCB, although we do optimize for multi year contracts. So our reps carries, our commercial reps carry six hundred thousand dollar quotum and it's we're not asking them to split the atom, but it's a good sized quota. Particulate through tee it. So our if you think about our percentage that we spent on sales and marketing it's well within what the PC's like to see what the value would expect. So that was a quota question. Give me that one. I'm sorry, I would only waste the so well, one question is so it's six Hundredzero, which is fifty k a month. Yeah, I think accelerators monthly, quarterly, annually. How do I if I want to get into the bonus? How the time that out? That's a great question. So quarterly, although I think on a very monthly cadence, and we've done this all the way back since the part on days. I'll tell you that I think sales fundamentals haven't changed that much in the last decade. Things like like metrics and conversion rates and just how much pipe coverage you need to not gotten dramatically different. So my thought processes is hard for the rep to make the quarter if they don't make the month. We want to continue to drive every quarter toward the quarterly number. And so you know we I considered to be a failure if we miss a monthly number, but the reps are in sinnivized on quarterings. Makes Sense. All right, we're almost out of time. So first of all, thank you so much, Derek. You've been amazing. We would like to reserve a few minutes to sort of call out some of your favorite things. So, first of all, what's in your text act? Obviously Sales...

Loft, obviously sales force, maybe part dot, but what are some other great tools that you're using to make your team more effective? Yeah, so all three of those are in there, which is a very perceptive I tell you. The one that we love is ever straying and so really, really powerful. I it's able to bubble up companies should be calling based on propensity scoring. It's able to bubble up, look a bike companies. And one thing to help drive relevancy, as it can say, Hey, you're currently you know, I'm calling on a healthcare organization, because here's three other healthcare organizations you work with, so that you can then name drop the old or drop this right in there, you know, in the email, to be able to drive relevancy and personalization there. So it's really powerful in that videyard. VIDEARD so good. How much are you embedding video into your cadences? Is it right out of the bend? For vidiard, you have to every rep has to sort of record their own video from their desktop. Is that right? But they're also we have to you can do some marketing produced videos, but I mean you know that again can be done by marketing automation. So why do you need a Rep doing it? You know marketing automation can do it for cheaper and with fewer spelling ares as far as I'm concerned. And so we do have reps record their own video. What we do is we use it is the third email touch, so we's in a really personal email one. We then bubble up or reply to that email. Is Our second email touch, and then the third is a video. What's found is it if the reps are on camera for step one? It takes a larger amount of time, stressing, to research, find something relevant and then sort of say those words into the camera. So we like going with the personal email first and the video email third. One of the things in that sales fall our sales folk study that I referenced earlier was the idea that email one usually has one of your worst conversion rates, but so often we send our very best message of that because the person's never heard from you before, and it particularly in our industry. They know their sales team is are reaching out more than twice. So when they get an email and it's even if it is relevant right, probably not going to ever hear from this rep again. And if you do get them a second time, you actually that's your highest number of conversions is on the second touch. That's why we didn't necessarily want to burn a video. And step one is that there is people are skeptical that you're going to hit them the second or third time. How long is the video? Last question on videos. So the email subject line is a thirty seven second video for person and, based on some research from videyard, including the word video in there actually causes open rates skyrocket. They're not all thirty seven seconds, truth than advertisement, which we shoot to keep him under a minute, because it's like, where's the birds of at that? They've got time to watch you just opine on and on, on and on on. It's like just say somethings that say it concise. A something that I heard on a Webinar and I would sell you that after fifteen years of sales, I literally was dumbfounded by because I'm so dumb and I just what I realized I've Dune founding some dumb in step one, we research the person and we write a personal email one, and in my world it was always the voicemail you leave would be hey, I'm Derek with company and we provide by you. Probably why not say there's exact same words on the voicemail, or vice versa. Right. And so what Stephen Brodie overmal soft, you just got acquired by sales for, said he does is he said that reps respect so much time trying to like the Sol whity to say or whatever it's like. Just read the freaking day one email that you personalized. I understand you drove revenue bias and it just had a work anniversary. Whatever the compelling events are. Just say those words on the video. It's the idea that once you dig up some nugget, you think his maining field that will trot them actually use it in every channel possible. And I when I heard that about van. I have given people voicemail scripts for years and how stupid is that? The thing that they said in the email that they wrote, or vice versa. Right, if you're good. I don't know. I don't know if it's as stupid as you're saying. I mean maybe different messages. The medium is part of how you communicate the message. Maybe there's a message in writing. That's not quite the same thing as saying it out loud, but it's the take your point. Where's something that your influencers you know, if we want to go out and go on Linkedin and find you know your perspective, your point of view on the one or two Great v piece of sales that you've interacted with. You just mentioned Stephen Brodie from mealsoft. Who else are the people that you look up to in the industry or that you talk about? My spirit animal is Scott Lease. I want to be him. PROWOWEEN. The guy is a britten stud he is a grinder. He told...

...the story at outbound engine that they went from a team of fifteen when he took over two three and two weeks because of the fact that he wanted people to be account and he wanted people to grind, but at the same time he didn't just throw them out into the deep end in the pool and then drag a bunch of drowned bodies out of pool. He spent a ton of time and enable and every day is manager responsible for an able but daily, multiple times a day, to make the reps better what they were doing, and I think he walks that Dell. Get Balance Up. I exp be you to always do more with and let me help you get there. He is a person who demands will and is helping improve skill every day. So I love him for that. He is awesome. Is this, this is the guy the step of sales from quality as that right? Yep, Yep, he's moved on from albound engine to quality. But yeah, he he is awesome. And then Mark Roberts from up spot. He's more old buddy of mind the guys, a scientific seller. I mean he's the guys might freaking engineer. That I what the guy's even doing selling is beyond me. What are we? The nicest guy. This smart. Now he now he likes you. Is An HBS. So it's am I. He's always in the Harvard ecosystem. Don't, don't say hbscus A hove. That's how they say it. I assume that he wears a ejaculate patches on and he's got a stay. He's smoking a pipe when he's doing his left. I don't know if any of that true, but I perceived that in my mind's eye. I think you're right. He definitely has a pocket square. He was always very doative her exactly. And then Bill Bench. You know, I will tell you that the marketing automation guys, we all grew a space together and we would have literally done the other one in always. But I grew a great amount of admiration for those guys. He's left Marquetto is now pindough and his leading sales over there. But bill is someone who had a great ability to scale a team. So I think a mark is being the science guy. Think of bills, the butts and seat driving productivity, a guy who's instant upside from a sales perspective. And then Scotts be in the person. That's just he's working with new sellers and he is getting them product. So those guys are all boss as far as I'm sorted. And you say I'm going to give a Samles book for you. I love a good shameless factor. It was blood. We loved the since your time and Geogb I will tell you there's nobody better but a relationships, no one better scaling the team. And so I'm going to put you on the list and it's well to Sur and so you know I will say those four. That's why I really please and well, it looks like my check Claire this month. So thank you for accepting my payment. Now to throw a y'all in there, so those of you used to along at home, that'll be a yeager ball. One or two last questions. One one, as you've been dropping a lot of books. So first of all, that's one of my favorite things about any kind of professional and actually we were at a firesye chat with in your graven a collective last night and Bob Ni from Jami equity was saying, you know, are you a lifelong learn? It sounds like you are. So if I'm want to be Derek Grant one day and I want to read a couple of books that help shape your professional career, what are some of the books that you want to reference? Yeah, you know, I think for any people have the opportunity way better than me. It's the most important thing. But just some found I think there's foundational stuff. One that I've always liked to spend selling. I think you can also put into the just sales fundamental books challenger. I think you can also put in their Joshua principle. I think those are all three books are sort of found national from a sales perspective, but always felt like I hate it when people just read it's on a sales books, because here's the thing. If anyone had truly figured out the thing to win every deal, they be sitting on a yacht South Scifi right now. They wouldn't tell it to you because they be afraid you'd use an a deal and take them off their yacht. And so I think people who are who are writing books thinking you can take fundamental things from it, but I don't think that anyone has got the I'd be pragmatic about the sales books that I read and what I took away from them, versus being dogmatic. I don't think anybody's got the exact formula. And you think about even challenge or challenger was from a time where the economy was in the tank and so you needed to go in and grab the person by the years and people to challenge you. Now they have challenged your customer because the market conditions of shifted. So I think so often it's read things, understand them, file them away, access them appropriately and don't assume that any one person has...

...got the answer, because I don't think that's true. And then I love things like looks like freakonomics. You know, all three of those books are great. I love anything by Michael Lewis. I'm listening to undoing project right now, which I'll kind of Daniel comment right. What's that? Yeah, Tommy, that's exactly right. That the common scale. What are the way that the the Israeli army determined where what people's shrinks weren't where they work? The guys a boss? Yeah, have they read? Thinking fast and slow? I'm not really think fast slay. That is what I want to I want to read of that influence backing Wolf of Wall Street on my phone right now to listen to, but now I need to get thank you, bessel up for good things. Yeah, it's amazing. Two last questions. Life Motto, guiding principles, any like one aphorism or something you want to share with the young people out there how they should approach their life? So we were I was on boarding reps right before I came and jumped on this podcast with you. One of the things we talked about is this purpose, because our companies of values driven company. We've got our five core values and you know, values to a company are like purpose to a person. It's sort of the lens with through which everything is looked at. And I guess I would say that your purpose will change over life seizes of life will change it. But today is the father of two girls under three. Better of fact, one just turned three last Wednesday, so I guess I can know whatever say that of two girls under three years and one month. My purpose is shifted now at this point of being a great dad, excuse me, being a great husband, being a great dad and being a great leader in that order. But you know, if you to talk to that me ten years ago, would have been to build a great company, to be part of the part I'd experience, to get start up guying. So I would challenge everyone out there to think about what your purpose is, and you know Covey in seven habits talks about that. Really what your purpose is is you should think about your life, start with you in mind and live like you want someone to read your yours. You one day, and I will tell you that I hope when someone standing at the the next time I wear a tie, because that Sam I'm not wearing a time less, I'm in a box. That's someone to make you were tied, Derek, maybe we're all easily. It sounds constrict about be like I have a really weak person trying to strangle me. The next time I'm wearing a tie, which is when somebody standing over my casket. I hope that they will say that I was a I was great to my wife Kelly, that I was I was there and available for those girls, because, I mean, I could drive toward money and be the best absolute dad the world. They could have all the things and never have a relationship with me. So I want to do that now. That's new in the last three years, because I have them. Then, I hope, great leader. I hope people will look back and say that I was I was influential in their sales career. I've always loved work with young reps because one day I'm going to be the person with I for sales manager, that I would be man. He see yellow us about soon. So and I'll be. That is so be it's I'm excited for that and so I hope that people will that will be something I would do as well. But I hope that's what they say about one off when I'm gone. Well, you know, I think it's also beautiful what you just said, just that you put yeah, Kelly, your wife, above the I like the order. I guess I'll say that I like the order because can't really be a great father if you don't have a good marriage and a good foundation. So that's inspiring. It's hard to be their form. So I miss grant is the queen of the castle. I was out number two. One, two, one, I'm definitely outnumber two, three. Yeah, see, Hee's the number one priority. Mrs Grant is the number one blower. Girls focus on our reals. Well, bless her heart, as they said. All right, so you guys just raise fifty million bucks. I'm sure you're hiring. If people want to get in touch with Derek Grant, what is your preferred mechanism? Can they how should they reach out to you? Yeah, absolutely, so get me up on Linkedin. You can send me an email. It's just Derek Dot grant. It sales offcom. So DPRK, Nott, GRA A and T at sales offcom. Let me know you're looking, because May and we are higher in so we don't love to have you on the team. We'd love to have the opportunity out with anyone in this audience that is doing things to grow their sales career. I mean your audience is exactly the folks that we don't have to talk to. That's fantastic, Derek. Thank you so much. You've been a real pleasure. It's been great to talk to you and I can't wait to see you, I'm sure, in person sometime soon. Done and done my sis in the city, so I'll stopped and aggravate you while I'm up there. All right, you're always welcome to it's not an aggravation. All Right, by Hey,...

...folks Sam's corner. Really enjoyed that conversation with Derek grant from salesloft on the day that they announced their fifty million dollar, seriously fundraise, so congratulations to them. I really liked Derek's comments about cadences. I think there's a lot of tactical information there that you can clean so Derek's research and the and the research from the folks at salesloft tells us that the traditional cadence of an eight by eight or ten by ten should continue on past those ten days or eight days. Eight by eight means eight touch points in eight days, but it's typically two touch points on day one, three, five and seven. The other thing that he said very specifically was always start with a phone call. Start with a phone call followed by an email that references the voice mail, voicemail that you may have just left. I think that's really good feedback and it's always important to underscore the relevance, that continued relevance, of the use of the telephone and setting up meetings and generating interest from the prospects that we're selling to. So never let go of that telephone. The power of the human voice remains strong with that. Thanks for listening. We'll talk to you next time and check out the show notes, see upcoming guests and play more episodes from our incredible lineup of sales leaders. Visit Sales Hackercom podcast. You can also find the sales hacking podcast on itunes or Google play or anywhere that you consume your podcasts. If you enjoyed this episode, please share with your peers on Linkedin, twitter or elsewhere. Special thanks again to this month's sponsors at Gong. See More Gong, dot io forward sales hacker. And finally, if you want to get in touch with me, you can find me on twitter at Sam f Jacobs or on Linkedin at linkedincom and slash Sam f Jacobs. SEE YOU NEXT TIME.

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