The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

80. Getting More Women Into Sales & Sales Leadership w/ Catie Ivey of Demandbase

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This week on the Sales Hacker podcast, we speak with Catie Ivey, Regional Vice President of Mid-Market Sales at Demandbase.

Catie has experience both in sales and marketing roles at Meltwater News, Salesforce, Marketo, and other big-name logos. She’s also worked internationally, with refugee camps and medical ships.

... to the salesacker podcast. We've got an incredible show for you today. Today we've got us our guest Katie Ivy, who is the regional vice president of mid market sales at demand based. She's a long time cellar. She's worked at Marquetto she's worked at a number of different great companies. She's an expert on marketing technology. She's also traveled all over the world. She's worked in the national affairs and so she's got a worldly, thoughtful, cosmopolitan perspective on how to be both a salesperson and a sales leader. I really, really enjoyed this conversation. Now, before we get into the conversation, we want to thank our sponsors. We've got two sponsors on the show today. The first is videyard. Email isn't dead, but it sure is boring. Add video to your emails to stand out in the inbox for free with videyard. Big Yard helps you easily record, send and track who is viewing your video content and three simple steps. First, easily record your screen or yourself on camera. Next, share your videos and emails just a few clicks. Finally, see when someone watches your videos, vidyard will let you know who could play and how much they watch. Get vid yard for free by visiting videyardcom forward to our salesacker. Second sponsors outreach, the leading sales engagement platform. Outreach support sales drafts by enabling them to humanize communications at scale, from automating the soul sucking manual work that eats upselling time to providing actionary two tips on what communications are working best. Outreach has your back. Now, without further ado, let's listen to our interview with Katie Ivy from demand base. Hey, everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the sales hacker podcast. I'm extremely excited today to have Katie Ivy on the show. Katie is the regional vice president of sales at demand base, which is a leading me to be marketing platform. Prior to joining demand base, Katie Rand Revenue Teams at Marquetto insight, pool, sales force and meltwater, and she's got deep experience in marketing technology. Specifically had a better leverage technology to scale revenue teams. She's also had experience through a number of different liquidity events and transactions, so that's going to be a great topic of conversation and she's passionate about getting more women at the sales and sales leadership and has a unique passion for mentoring and working the sellers in the early stages of their careers, which could be good for you if you're listening out there and you want to get in touch with her after the show. But for now, Katie, welcome to the show. Thanks so much, Sam. Really it's stoked to be here. We're excited to have you. So your title is regional Vice President of Mina market sales at demand base. We always want to give you an opportunity to to sort of tell us what is the company, because you all have been growing very quickly. So what is demand base? Yeah, so I've actually been a demand base. It's the beginning of this year and it has been such a fun ride so far. Demand Base is a leading B Tob Marketing Platform. Really started in the account based marketing space. So really cool technology around helping be tob companies go to market, doing everything through an account centric Lens. So talk a ton about how to better aligned sales of marketing specifically, but it really more holistically aligning revenue orgs across the board. Think of it as almost modern day what what marketing automation was ten years ago, kind of shifting everything that we do. Is Marketing and selling leaders really kind of that two point out, if you will. So may I ask you a few questions? Yeah, absolutely. Have we rather guess the no to that question? It would be it would be a little strange, but it's still like, I still like to be played when so account based marketing technology does that mean? Is it that we load in a list of a hundred companies and you help us retarget display advertising against those companies? Is it not that at all? Is it much more than that? What I what of the specific workflows that you're helping support through your platform? Yeah, so it is an aspect of that, but to your point, certainly much more so. Companies come to us with a whole set of challenges and things that they're looking to accomplish from an account based perspective what you just mentioned in terms of hey, we know these one hundred companies are absolutely who we want to sell to. Can you help us go do it? We can certainly do that. So you...

...do have the option to use our platform load them in. Will Give you a lot of insight and additional information. So you know intent data. What are those companies doing out on the be Tob Web? Are they researching you your competitors? Have they hit your website? Are they, you know, doing things that are very relevant to help you understand that those companies may or may not be in market? So we could rank those a hundred companies and then go, do you know everything from top of this, top of the funnel, display advertising, retargeting, middle of the funnel, if we want to personalize the experience at those companies have on your website, or, even more bottom of the funnel, being able to arm your sellers with insights about those companies and what they're doing out there on the web to help them go create pipeline. It's really those kind of three specific pieces when you think of those accounts. So that help? Yeah, it does help. And and and you know, intent datas everywhere these days. It's really interesting to think about it and hear about it and so and then I guess you must integrate with with sort of like the traditional big marketing automation platforms. If you're doing kind of personalization on people's sites, you're probably connecting to things like Marquetto. Is that right? So yeah, there's definitely integrations on the marketing automation side of the House as well as crm. That's probably the bigger piece for us because most of the the marketing and sales or as we look, we work with are looking for help really attributing revenue from an account centric Lens. So they're accustomed to, Hey, once we get that form fill inside of Marquetto or partot or Eloqua, being able to really start that journey and understand what's turning into pipeline and then close one revenue. But the big gap for most of the marketers that I work with is what's everything that's happening before that form fill happens? Or, better yet, what if that form fill in the traditional sense never happens? How do we tie back everything that we have some marketing ORC have done against that organization or that company to give us a holistic lens of our power spending our money and how to better optimize super cool. As you can tell, the really interested in this so well. I'm very interested in as well. There's a reason, I mean made the jump from Marquetto over to demand base. It's been a topic that's been fascinating to me for a long time. So I think the the tech itself is really, really fascinating. So are you seeing? There's a there's a conversation happening amongst themos that are part of revenue collective, as you are part of revenue collective and we're excited to have you where. You know, the old world is kind of like Turkey dinner, Big Rock content. We're going to write the ultimate guide to live streaming, which is something I did at live stream. We're going to gate it and, you know, put up gated content. It'll be a great piece of content. We're going to collect lots of emails and and contact information and then we'll drop them into our funnel from there. But I'm seeing a world are I'm hearing about a world where content is increasingly becoming ungated. Is that what you're seeing too? Yeah, absolutely, and it's crazy how fast that trend is accelerating, because you're corrective, and I mean I was. I was telling part oft back, say ten years ago, where the the push was gate everything, and back then, just even the fact that we had the ability to start gathering information and contact details early on, the process was like this big win. But yeah, now we're seeing our customers on gate more and more and more, Bush is why it's become imperative that got to have the right technology in place to understand what's happening, you know, long before that form fill. We're also seeing people don't volunteer their real information quite as much anymore. If you're anything like me, I'm sure you get bombarded with emails, many of them UN solicited. So we're seeing folks that are, you know, much more reticent to give away their information until they're a lot further along in the buying process. I think those two really go hand in hand. So that's where you need that intent data. You need to understand what they're doing, who they are, what their ISP is. You know where they're coming from roughly in terms, and you can match kind of like the Internet address and the IP address from to the company, potentially right now, absolutely, and then get that information over to cells, because the reality is that some of those buyers are maybe never going to put up their hand from a form full perspective, or if they do, it's going to be very late in the process, and there's nothing worse than sales than being late to the Party when folks are further down in conversations with maybe your direct competitors. So that's a type of information we help get over to to the sales org as well. Super Interesting and to I mean that's a sea change. That is a massive structural change and how marketers...

...market. If we're moving away from grabbing people's email addresses, well, that makes sense. Why so many the marketers that you and I talk to you are slightly overwhelmed with how do we do it? How do we do it better, and then how do we track against it and attribute the revenue? It's definitely a been a lot of moving parts over the last couple of years. Cool to the point. You're on trend. So demand base like, I guess, in terms of the size of the organization, because it is actually is sort of I don't maybe your Unicorn. Maybe you're close to that, but these some rough proxies for how big this organization is and how big the organization is that you specifically manage. Yeah, not quite a Unicorn yet, but you know, fingers crossed. We're working on it. Or just over a hundred million, about three hundred and fifty employees headcort out in San Francisco, but our East Coast headquarters is New York, which is where I'm based out of. To your point of the the organization that I run specifically, I managed a team of fifteen, so essentially all of our mid market sellers, I and managers on the east coast of the US. Do you find? You know, Midimu. How do you define them in market? We define it as five hundred million and revenue and below. Oh Wow, okay, very large. So still this isn't like I mean, are these sixty day sales cycles, Ninety Day sales cycles? Are they high velocity or is it still fairly consultative selling, because it sounds like that. The technology itself is fairly complicated. Yeah, so it's a good question and one of the reasons that I love the role specifically is it's a phenomenal mix of all of the above. So we definitely do have some element of high velocity sales cycles. Typically it's are either more educated buyers or really savvy be to be tech companies that are those early adoptors from a technology standpoint. So well, you know, we have the handful of folks that either come to us or that we contact that are you know in market ready to invest in the technology, may have a very specific need. Maybe it's read account based advertising perspective, for example. They know exactly what they're looking for and you know, those can absolutely be thirty to forty five days sales cycles. The average for us is certainly a little bit longer than that, two to four months. As what we're seeing, at least within my org, certainly that the larger size of the company, the length and the complexity tends to go up from there. And what's what percent of your guy? I mean, if some of these information I'm just, as you can know, interested. But for a company that is itself an accomplice marketing platform, where does your pipeline come from? Is and mostly outbound, or is it? Is it using your own you know, drinking your own cool aid, so to speak, to make sure that people are finding you in the right way? Yeah, so we drink our own, I call it our own champagne. Absolutely of any and I've worked at some amazing technology companies, as you mentioned before, but if anywhere that I've worked, I've never worked at a company that is as good at using their own technology and actually practicing what we preach from a sales and marketing alignment perspective. So the numbers fluctuate depending on what quarter we're talking about, but a huge percentage of our pipeline is outbound generated. We have a very solidified target account list which we, of course, have used our technology to build out, and then each of the rep reps that work for me, they do own a geography as well, but then they own a target account list within that and we focus a ton of our efforts and initiatives and dollars against those accounts specifically. Cool, awesome. Well, I feel like we you know we've. It's been I think we're only ten minutes into the PODCAST and I've really already learned a tremendous amount. So we could well, thank you, I don't don't get me started. I could talk about ABM and demand base for another hour and a half. I'm sure it would borre your listeners. I don't think so, because this is all about how you make money in the modern world. Well, let's talk about you a little bit. So, first of all, you've worked in marketing technology, but a bunch of amazing companies and you know, you characterize yourself in a way that lots lots of people that I talked to on this show do, which is essentially as an accidental seller. So how did you get into sales in the first place and walk us through sort of the progression into sales leadership? Yeah, so the move into sales was definitely an accident. You hit that on the the head. My journey even prior to going to school after high school was a little bit unique. I went overseas, was going to do a gap year, ended up working for a nonprofit for almost five years before I move back to the US and went to university. So I had...

...my sights fairly clearly set on a career in international affairs, international politics. That was the the trajectory. Stumbled into an interview my last semester of college literally because it had the word international in the title. Is the only reason I showed up. Turned out it was for an entry level sales gig. Had No idea really what sales was even about, very little background in technology or anything selling related, and just fell in love with the company. Was So impressed with the culture, was super excited about the potential from a career kind of trajectory perspective and took a job. Basically, it was it was a full cycle sales Gig, but pretty much what you would think of a as a BDR role today, making a ton of cold calls on the phone and email all day every day. So that was my first job out of college. Assumed again it would be a stepping stone into something that was quite a bit different than turned out three to six months in that I not only did I love that role, but also that the experience I had had overseas and kind of in a pseudo management role translated itself really naturally into kind of getting pushed into more of a team lead role very early on at my selling career. So that was what opened the door for me to move into leadership positions. Typically tell people that I was a natural at the sales leadership side. It took me a long time to become more of a natural at the actual selling motion. That's interesting. Yeah, and this is an Atlanta where were you? Yeah, I was in Atlanta. The company I was working for is called meltwater. A lot of people I meet are familiar with it. It's an amazing organization. It's a Norwegian company originally, I think they move their headquarters out to San Francisco. Eventually but basically they sprung up these little sales offices all over the world. Was bootstrapped that ever took on funding, and so I was the first round of hires when they opened the Atlanta Office. Was Me and I think for other reps and two managers running this little office out of would have we work back them, but literally a little coworking space. Amazing opportunity to I ended up running the entire Atlanta Division, I guess eighteen months in as when I took over. So got a lot of exposure to a lot of different things really quickly in my career because of that move. Wow. So you, you just mentioned your felt like a natural sales leadership but not a natural at actual selling. What do you think the differences are? There's I think there's so many. For me, I just I had had a lot of experience managing people in particularly more the coaching aspect or building culture, getting folks excited or rallying around, you know, whether it was a mission statement. You know, back before I went to university, was literally leading people into refugee camps and doing, you know, much more in the weeds, very different types of activities, but it was aligning a group of people around a specific common cause. So what do you think about numbers and sales quotas and you know how you go to market? That piece of it came really naturally, and being able to even just see people well, listen, understand kind of the the mood and that dynamics in the room and get even a really small group of people all marching in the same direction. I felt really good at that from day one. Ban Sales felt like such a challenge for me. You and I've have just met not too long ago, but you know, even to this day I tend to talk really fast. Naturally, you should have heard me ten years ago. Getting me on my first cold call was literally laughable. I wish that someone. I wish we had iphones back then and we were recording it, because I can't imagine the speed at which I talked. I literally have memories of my brand new manager standing in front of me, like waving his arms trying to get me to to slow down. I think I got hung up on that first cold call. I'm pretty sure that's okay. Most calls don't end successfully, war of attrition typically. It's true. It's happen. How did you develop yourself as a seller specifically, like what are as you think about now, knowing what you know now about what it takes to be a great sales person? What do you think it takes? So a couple of things. One, I'm naturally very competitive. So I was aware literally from day one that I wasn't maybe the most natural in the room, but I knew that I had capacity to work really, really hard, and so early in my career that's exactly what I did. It was we had an open territory models. It was literally like the more hours you spit prospecting, the more...

...leads you could go after and more people you could call and reach out to. So early on I worked really hard. I also, I think naturally I have a decent amount of self awareness, but I spent a lot of time back then. It wasn't even on a an iphone. I had some out of voice recorder, so I would record myself on the phone and doing these little like many demos that we did at the early part of our sales process. So spend a lot of time trying to kind of critique and figure out, okay, what what am I good at? What am I kind of naturally where am I naturally hitting the hitting the mark, as well as what things am my missing that are happening on the other end of the phone that I'm not capitalizing on? So spend a good bit of time there. I also, I think one of the big gaps, especially for a lot of entry level sellers or folks that are young in their career, is I didn't know a ton about business, but I was really, really curious to learn about business, and that was one of the cool things about selling at melt waters because we were selling two lots of different industries and a big range of companies from small to large. So I spent a ton of time just trying to learn and understand how to companies make money, how to different industries work it, what are the trends that are happening, you know, in the market here in the US and internationally, just reading a lot so that I would have the opportunity and capacity to at least sound intelligent with some of these executives that I was interacting with, and I think that helped me probably grow and scale a little bit quicker than some of the peers that I was, you know, maybe working next to. Thinking about sales leadership and when you know, you talked about your experience in international affairs and offer profits sort of informing it. But if you're if you're mentoring a young person, you're and you're trying to extract very specific kind of action items for someone to become wow or work on becoming a great leader, what are the specific things that you that you are coaching people on to to enable them to, you know, and fire and lead a group of people? Yeah, it's one of the best questions because I think it's one that's so unique based on the individual that you're working with, and one because so many am and I'm working with a guy on my team right now that's just transitioned to is first roll managing a team of sellers and he's a killer individual contributor. But many of us have gone through that transition of okay, I'm really, really good at the salespiece. Again, I mentioned that was a little bit different for me, but you know, most of us have been there. Hey, I really know how to do these five things or these ten things really well and I'm, you know, consistently at the top of the leaderboard, the top of the charts. Now I'm given this group of people and literally functioning outside of my comfort zone all day, every day and trying to figure out like what, what am I actually good at? Do I even want to do this leadership of this management get, you know, compared to the role of an individual contributor? So I think the beginning are the first kind of layer or piece is really important for me that I try to figure out with new managers is not just what are they good at, but what are they actually love? What makes them come alive? What aspects of their role, either, you know, previously as a seller, did they really really love, or what are the pieces that they're super excited about as they start taking on some of these new responsibilities? I think our knee jerk reaction, it certainly has been mine in the past, is it's very easy to identify the gaps that individuals have, and this is true for sellers as well as sales leaders or sales managers. We can see the things that they may or may not be, you know, so naturally great at, but it's easy to miss, Hey, there's these certain areas where they're just so, so strong, and then figure out how to help them capitalize on those areas. You know, while of course you got to figure out what the gaps are and that help them identify those and find their own solutions. But it's initially, for me at least, starting with the things that really make them come alive, figuring out what they're really good at and then building a strategy so that we can build around those while slowly chipping away at the things that we feel like, you know, maybe a road block from a weakness perspective, but makes a lot of sense here. So here's one of the conundrums of sales management, really management in any capacity, which is we often talk about how being great at sales does not necessarily make one a great sales manager. And, as you just articulated, the inverse might also be true. Right you, you would. You are a natural sales leadership person. You're excelling at that,...

...but the actual act of selling might not be. Didn't come as naturally too. So if there are people out there, what do you do in that situation? Either a how do you is it possible to find somebody that isn't a great sales person that can become a great sales leader, or is it just that that's not possible because they can't, they don't have credibility with the team and it's just a smaller universe of people that are a great sellers and be great leaders. How do you help people figure out that transition and how do you help organizations evaluate who are the people that are going to be able to make that transition? That's a very challenging question. I do think that, to your earlier point, absolutely there's folks that are great sellers that are not wired to be managers. I honestly don't think that it is possible to be a great sales leader if you don't have some sales DNA. Doesn't mean that, you know, like myself, there weren't gaps or challenges things that you had to learn. I'm a firm believer that we actually all have the capacity to get really, really good at things that we might not naturally be really good at, but I just don't think that, even from a front line leadership perspective, if you're, you know, managing your first team, I just don't think that it's possible to be a phenomenal sales leader if you don't also have the chops to walk into a room and know how to actually be great at closing that deal. Interesting. So do you think it's possible for someone to come from sales operations and pursue a path towards vp of sales or crow or do you think you have to come from the front line management x? Oh No, I think you can absolutely come from a lot of different angles and different divisions. But I think that you've got to be willing to invest time in learning the motion of actually being a seller. So it's going to look different for different organizations and there's different levels of even you to think about complexity or at the level of you know, technical aptitude required four different types of sales. You know, there's things that, you know, very technical sellers or folks with more of an operations background to your early point would bring to the table. That would be, you know, very unique compared to something that I would bring to the table. So that individual could absolutely be a, you know, massive asset when we think of moving them into, you know, a revenue leadership perspective or a VP of sales roll. But I do think that they've got to be willing to get in the trenches and understand how do the deals really get done and what does it take to get from you know, that early stage pipeline across the finish line to close one revenue and for most organizations, how do we actually keep that customer and keep them happy over time? I think that you've got to be able to see through that holistic lens to be able to at least advance from a career perspective. At a sales leadership role. You're running a team of fifteen now and you know you're coaching people every day. If we're trying to be specific and help out people that are listening, identify one very specific gap that you are constant you find yourself constantly coaching up and coming sales people on. What is that one specific thing that you're that you're constantly reminding people to do better or more of? I'm literally thinking through my team right now, one by one, because some of their gaps are very different. The one that I find myself pushing on consistently is listening more and listening better. As sellers, we naturally, and I'm sure you and I are like this, but we love to talk and so, especially for newer reps that are a little bit more insecure or less confident, they're so excited that they know the answer to the question or they're so excited that they know where they think they should take the conversation, that they miss a lot of the meat. That comes from an opportunity to ask better layering questions, for example. Or there they'll hear something on maybe it's a discovery call and it doesn't quite compute or doesn't make really make sense. But as opposed to taking a second and stopping saying like Hey, I'm not sure if I actually understood what you meant there. Can can you go one level deeper? Can you can explain that further, they just sort of keep going because they're so afraid to sound either like unclear unsure of an answer. So I think that's probably the biggest trend that I see, especially folks that are earlier on in their career, is that they're really nervous to stop and ask additional questions and they tend to talk too much.

Cool. Well, that's very helpful. Thank you. One of the things we're talking about, you know, before we started recording, or the biggest drivers between success and failure in your current role, and you talked about the importance of alignment. So when you think about aligning revenue, strategy, tone, tell us what you mean. Yeah, it's a good question. It's definitely applicable even to our the beginning of our conversation when we're talking about, you know, account by selling and account based marketing. And that's one thing that you know, even in phenomenal organizations that I've worked it in the past, like the Marquettos and the sales forces of the world, are in goal isn't always the same when you think of marketing and sales and customer success, just for example. And so one of the things when we talk about alignment, even with our customers at demand base, it starts with something that feels so, so, so simple, but it's are we all going after the same accounts? Is Marketing spending dollars on the exact accounts that sales wants to sell to and as sales actually making an effort to sell to the accounts that we know are going to be our best customers and be, you know, most successful and set up for success across the board? And that feels so basic, but you'd be amazed at the number of times we sit I sit down with marketing and sales leaders and they've got this target account list that basically was built by salespeople and then they've got this totally separate ICP or different personas that marketing is spent time identifying, and the two don't even really mirror one another. And that doesn't mean that there's not some similarities in some overlap, but that aspect of starting really from two different foundations then creates fragments every step along the way. I also see it from a metrics perspective. So you'll have you know I've worked for organizations where marketing is metric, on mql's for example, and then sales people are obviously trying to close deals, and so there's this big gap where you know, marketing is celebrating we've got all these great leads and then sales is complaining that they don't have any of the right leads, and then marketings pissed that sales isn't following up with the leads that they're sending over. So there's again just it feels so simple, but it's a breakdown in terms of we're not focusing on the same kpis and success doesn't look the same across the two organizations. And I think it gets even more complex when we talked about layering customer success, renewals, retension expansion, all of that into the equation. So really, for me it all starts with are we focused on the right accounts, the same accounts, and then are we metrics in a way where we're all celebrating the same successes and really really stressed out or pissed off by the same failures? So, for if we want to go to that celebrating the same successes, does that mean that marketing does not focus on mqls? And, in my opinion, absolutely so. What should they focus on? Pipeline and revenue. Okay, well, that's fair. There we go. I probably stout. It probably sounded two opinionated on that, but in my opinion it's pipeline and revenue should be what we're all celebrating and measured on. Well, I don't think you found I mean you may sound opinionated, but I also think you're reflecting again modern trends. I think what I'm hearing more and more is that and ql's are less and less mentioned for exactly the reasons that you articulated. And revenue is something that kind of everybody in the organization is being focused on, including maybe sometimes even product and engineering. Yeah, especially in the me to be context. So if we if we say okay, we want alignment, what are some super specifics? Do you have a weekly, monthly meeting with marketing? How do you implement an operationalize alignment and your opinion? So there's a couple of things that we do at demand base that I think work really well. And again I don't think there's one cookie cutter approach because it really depends on what you're starting point is and then what are some of the quick wins and things that you can get under your belt as an org to start getting everyone focused in the same direction? For us we do as a leadership team, we do we called a funnel review that we do weekly with marketing. So we've got sales and marketing leadership and we're reviewing everything from, you know, early stage leading indicators, looking at activity. We still track all of the same things that you know, marketing ORCs have been tracking, you know, since...

...the dawn of time. But the most important one for us we're looking at discovery calls that are run, what's transitioning into pipeline and then we're where we're at from a close want revenue perspective on a monthly, early and annual basis, so that facetime or or zoom time with marketing and sales leadership on a weekly basis is definitely impactful. We also do a roll up of all campaigns, everything essentially that marketing is doing and driving. That goes out to our entire sales or first thing every Monday. So making sure that everyone's aligned around things that are happening, for from a digital perspective, the various campaigns that are running, everything that's happening from a field perspective, that there's alignment, that we're clear in terms of goals. Even you know, sales obviously has a huge amount of weight and responsibility when we've got goals against a field event, for example. So creating a lot of visibility at all the way from the REP level, you know, up from there. Those are probably the two things that we do that create just consistent alignment across the org. We do some different reviews on a quarterly basis, of course, and then by annually we do a touch base around are the target accounts the right accounts? Where do we need to tweak things? Do we need to make changes there? Yeah, those are the ones that come to mind. I don't know if that brings up other questions on on that point, it's just super helpful, to be honest, a few because it's very specific, which is fantastic. So, you know, one of the things that's important is obviously alignment, but then you also have repeatedly talked about the importance of kind of optimism and also, you know, what you might think of as a growth mindset when you're coaching people on those two things. What do you what do you mean specifically? Yeah, it's one of the things, probably probably more than just about anything, that I look for when I'm interviewing or looking to bring new folks onto my team or promote individuals from within onto my team, is are they gituminely optimistic and solution oriented, and then do they have a growth mindset? And I feel like that's become a bit more of a buzzword since Carol doack and all of her research and great book that she put out. But the difference between a fixed mindset, literally what you see is what you get, the level of intelligence that you have is set. Things are fixed, versus this concept of a growth mindset, which is ultimately, I'm in control of my own destiny. I'm capable of learning new things, I'm capable of learning new skills, I'm able to take ownership and decide what the end result could or should be in a certain environment. That's how I define, and I think how most of the resource research out there defines, a growth mindset, and I think that's it's so important for sellers across the board, but even more so when we think of selling within more of a startup or fast moving environment, because things change all the time, territories change all the time, pricing products, I mean, there's just so things can feel like a moving target and there's things that you come up against as a seller or a sales leader that you weren't planning for three months prior or, you weren't expecting maybe at the beginning of that specific quarter, and the seller or the sales leader with a growth mindset has this capacity to take a de breath and think, okay, what are the things I can control, and then how do I go attack them and what do I need to learn and how could I go, you know, learn that skill or become better in a certain area? You know, they may not be really strong today, you know, versus that someone that allows themself to just feel like a victim or feel like, you know something up and that I'm not control of. So I'll sit back and sort of see how things land, if you will. Yeah, what's the difference? Sometimes nobody that's a pessimist thinks of themselves as a pessimist, from some of them do so. Most of the time they say that they are realists and that they're just calling it like it is and sort of truth telling, and there are times when you know, if things are if shit sitting the fan, that that's maybe helpful. So how do you differentiate and what sort of feedback to give to somebody that's suffering through kind of difficult times to help them maintain their optimism? Yeah, it's definitely challenging, especially within an environment that moves as fast as a startup does, because they're absolutely was in any sales environment, there's going to be laws and there's going to be down seasons and it's a hard one. I in the past, I think, almost suffered from being overly optimistic at times and I had to learn to make sure that I was seeing things to a very concrete and realistic...

Lens. Okay, what are the challenges? Am I understanding exactly what we're up against? What are we facing? You know, maybe it's from a product perspective, for a competitive landscape perspective, or gaps within my team or my own org that I might be managing. How do I really come to terms with the reality of the situation? But then from there being able to understand clearly what can I influence? And at least for myself, I've seen in you know, opportunities where if I find myself in that more pessimistic or feeling beat up place, it typically is because I'm not taking ownership of the things that I actually have a fair amount or a lot of control on. So that's typically the conversation that I have with sellers, because you can tell when a sellers in a slump or I mean sometimes you could just literally see in their face or their mood they've just had a rough week or a rough month or they're, you know, down in the dumps for whatever reasons. And I'm a personal sometimes nothing to do with the job, but being able to have a sit down and encourage them to take a step back. Let's unpack us a little bit. Let's figure out where you're up to, what's going on, what are the challenges. Then from there, what or two to three tangible things that you know you can own or you can control, and then breaking that down into some specific milestones. Sometimes it's literally as granular as what can you accomplish today that's going to make an impact? It could be as simple as they need to book two meetings, something that is absolutely within their control, and then trying to help kind of give them that internal locus of control to feel like there are certain things that they can bite off and own that are going to influence things in the long term. You honestly, I don't say this a lot, you sound like a great manager. So Oh, thank you, really, really thank you. I have funy of ups and downs as well, but that is very encouraging to hear. I appreciate it. No problem. So, you know, last topic for today at least, is just thinking about you know you because you've talked about gender quality, I guess, women in sales, and all of these lessons apply to everybody, but they especially apply to women. So what's your perspective on helping, or should we be even focused on helping more women get into sales, but also sales leader ship? And you know, are there differences and how we need to think about creating a class of women sales leaders and women executives versus men, in your opinion. So yes, we should still absolutely focus there. There is still a tremendous gender gap, not just in sales, but even more so as you move up into sales management and then even more so as you move into more executive leadership on the sales side of the house. So it's a big passion of mine to both get more women into sales and then ensure that we're setting them up for success and giving them the tools that they need to at least have an opportunity to really excel in their career. In terms of how to do that, I think there's a lot of different pieces or ways to go about it, and one think there's absolutely not as many women applying for sales jobs. I experienced this firsthand, you know, when I joined man base the beginning of this year, we had a lot of open head counter. I had a decent amount of open head account and I find I found myself having to work harder to make sure that I was looking at a re remotely equal kind of playing field from a rep from resume perspective. So those of us in positions like myself have to be. In my opinion, we have to take a lot of ownership and be very proactive, build out great networks, make sure that you're out there in the community, that your networking and mentoring young folks you know that maybe in the early stages of their career. I signed up for a few things, a few different groups since since joining or since moving to New York, in addition to the revenue collective, which I love, by the way, that would just an effort to try to meet people in particularly focused on are there ways that I can in power or enable females that maybe earlier stage in their career than I am? As you start building that within your orgs, one of the challenges that a lot of sales leaders have is, Hey, my team is very male dominated, and if it is very male dominated, then the challenges we tend to we hire within our networks, within our friends, we hire people that are like us. So as you start adding some powerhouse, you know, females, into the team, it's like this momentum that builds and it gets easier, but that beginning of getting that ball rolling, I think, is where you have to be really, really purposeful and as sales leaders, men and women, we have to take a lot of...

...ownership there. I think it's also important to identify that there's, you know, for all of us, they're specific streaks of weaknesses that we bring to the table, but there's some certain things. You know, when I have a young female on my team that might be relatively early in her career, some of the things that she may naturally struggle with our things like confidence and executive presence. So there's very simple things that you can do to help that individual, something as simple as making them stand up when they make phone calls or putting them on video when they're in a zoom conversation so they're making eye contact. There's ways that, you know, you can learn to project your voice differently, figure out how to get rid of some of the filler words. There's very simple, tangible things that I think can be impactful to helping, you know, not just women, but women and men that are early on in their career. That will certainly at least make sure you're laying the right foundation for those individuals to be set up for success. Awesome, cool. That's really really good feedback. The video on zoom thing is is actually kind of tricky actually, because I can also imagine particularly women, feeling like maybe it's it's uncomfortable in some way, that that stretches beyond their comfort level with sales, but also speaks to their comfort in the workplace, so to speak. Yeah, I think that can be a challenge or could be a challenge. I found the inverse to be true, though, but for all tenders really is that the more we can do, especially if you're in more of a remote sales role, anything we can do to remember that we're interacting with human beings, real life people, but it tends to make us much more confident and just better at our job in general. So I feel like video is an easy way to be able to at least make one step in that direction. Even better if you can get in a room meet someone facetoface, but I feel like you know, for especially folks that are younger in their sales career, it definitely tends to be more of a confidence build if you can force them to make that eye contact and really engage with that individual more as a person as opposed to this like, you know, fictional executive on the other end of the phone. Super great great feedback, great feedback, Katie. This has been one of my favorite podcasts. If we have the section at the end where we sort of want to pay it forward, we want to know to the point of you know your travels and your your experiences, what are you reading? WHO's influenced you? What are the things that you think are formative or important that you want to pass along to people that are listening so that they can to the point of growth mindset, they can continue to improve. The could be books, it could be people that have influenced to give us some content or some some some clues or some leads and we can follow the bread crime trail, as I say. But that was so many great questions and you know I like to talk, so I feel like I could go for another twenty minutes on that flip see. You said what have I've been reading? Was One of the questions. I'm that I'm in one of the things that I'm an avid reader. I think that's one of the things that many of us we sell ourselves short in a lot of ways, but we just don't push ourselves to learn enough. So I've been pushing myself and I try to read a book or two a book or to a week is the goal. I don't always get there, but recently I read billion dollar coach and never split the difference. Two amazing, amazing books. Never split the difference. Is One of the best sales I mean you've probably read it. It's one of the best sales books I've read in a while. I think sales books are typically so cheesy and like not particularly actionable, but loved that one. So if your seller and you haven't read it, definitely go get never split the difference. Also, Chris Voss has been on the show. So amazing. Another thing from my bucket list. I'd love to meet him. I'm sure it's for the love it for the money. You can move anybody. All that is very true, Katie. Thanks so much for being on the show. If folks are inspired, I want to reach out to you after hearing this. Is that okay? And what's your what's your preferred method of contact? Yeah, absolutely, I love hearing from folks. Linkedin is probably my preferred method of contact. On linkedin I'm easy to find that. I'm actually Katie Ivy, coachinio. So my married name is very hard to spell and very hard to pronounce. Since the fact that I go by Ivy, you should be able to find me either way, but don't get thrown off by the weird lass, the weird third name. If you find me on Linkedin, I'm typically really good at getting...

...back to DM's messages there. I'm also relatively actor on active on twitter as well, so if you'd like to connect there, I'm game as well. What's your twitter hander? It's Katie Coachino. Okay, we will figure it out. Yeah, I do do I can for you if you want. It's okay. Hey, thanks so much for being on the show. We're going to talk to you on Friday for Friday fundamentals, but this has been a great conversation, so thanks a lot. Thanks so much, Sam. Really appreciate it. Take care. Hey, everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. This is SAM's corner. I really really enjoyed my conversation with Katie. I be both because she's just she's a practitioner right, she's curious, she's reading a ton of books, she's out there in the field. She's been both a seller and a manager and I think when we ask for specific she was able to deliver the specifics, which is always just makes for a great guest. A couple things to keep in mind, and one of them is I just think a lot of people are talking about growth mindset or systatic mindset in this idea that you have to be an optimist, and I know that in any given moment it's really, really difficult sometimes to be an optimist. At least I struggle with it sometimes. So what she talked about was let's break down the things that you can control versus the things you can't control, and let's figure out how we can make the goals small enough and actuable enough and concrete enough that you can make progress on those goals within a day, a week or more specific discrete, measurable reinforcing timeline. So when you're thinking about growth mindset in your boss telling you have to be an optimist, think about how you can translate and separate what's in your control versus out of your control and then focus on what's in your control and focus on making progress against that outcome. So I think that's really important from a strategic perspective. Not The first person to talk about the death of mqls, marketing, qualified leads and how you know there's an old world where mqls are driven by a lead score. They're driven by gate and content. You put up a form, right yet, or your email address. After you fill out that form, you get access to whatever you're looking for. Me I get's an Roi calculator, maybe it's a white paper. They email it to you and now you're into the the marketing flow, the the nurture campaigns. You're just getting spammed, essentially, and the wolves moving away from that. Marketers are increasingly being comped on refnue, not mqls or maybe pipeline itself. And the same way that the sales team is, the sales and marketing teams are meeting very often, weekly, monthly, quarterly to get on the same page, make sure you're focused on the same accounts, actually going after the same companies and making sure that you know one team isn't high fiving while the other team is hanging their heads. And I think that that is really, really important. And at the same time, we're moving away from gated content. Right some Morn more people. They're giving you the information on the content for free, and probably to be honest, because they're tracking you on your browser and they're cooking you and they're following you around the Internet so that they don't need to ask for your email address because they can match your Ip address to your employer and they can figure out where you are, and all of that is what we call inten data. Because the final thing is, you know, we talked about what are the key transfer sellers, what are the key hall marks, and it always make sure you're listening. Don't talk too fast. You talked about when she was doing her first cold calls and she was talking a tremendous amount. She didn't understand business. Make sure you understand business and that you're listening and not afraid to ask questions when you don't understand something. That is just so critical. If you don't understand something, just ask. You know, one of my personal rules is if somebody mentions a band and I have not heard of them, I never lie and say that I have. I always say Nope, haven't heard of them. Tell me about them, even if it's you know, one of the Times I'd never heard ring of fire by Johnny Cash, but I hadn't heard it. Now I have, of course, many, many times. But if I don't know something that's supposed to be conventional wisdom. I try to force myself to abandon my pride and just simply say I don't know what you're talking about. Please explain such a good rule when it comes to sales. This has been sales and SAM's corner, not sales anything. It's SAM's corner. You know what it is. We want to thank before we go our sponsors. We've got two sponsors on the show. We've got vidyard. Fig Yard helps you easily record, send in...

...track who is feeling your video content. It's three simple steps. Record yourself on screen, share your videos and email and then finally see when someone watches your videos using analytics. Get vid yard for free by visiting videyardcom forward, sales hacker. Second sponsors outreach, the leading sales engagement platform. If you want to reach out to me, you can linkedincom forward. Lash the word in forks. Last Sam if Jacobs, I will talk to you next time.

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