The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

9. How to Sell Enterprise Software Solutions w/ Todd Caponi

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

On this episode of the Sales Hacker podcast, we talk with Todd Caponi, CRO of PowerReviews about how to sell enterprise software solutions with increased transparency in the sales process.

One two one twe three fo before we get started. We want to thinkthis month sponsor introducing Gong Dot io the number one conversationintelligence platform for sales gone helps. You generate more revenue byhaving better sales conversations, it automatically captures and analyzesyour teams conversations. So you can transform your team into quotashattering supersellers, as I GONDA IO forward, ty sales hacker to get in onthe action and see it lized and now o'n, with the show everybody welcome to the Saletackerpodcast really excited about today's guest. Today I've got todd Kapony, whois going to be very famous and well known to a lot of the people out therein the world sairly shortly. But let me give you his brief background. In hiswords, he's a nerd for all things: Sales Philosophy, learning theory andhis new nurtery decision science. He spent the last three and a half yearsbuilding the revenue capacity of Chicago's power reviews from thegroundup as their cro, their chief revenue officer prior to thatleadership, rorls with three other tech companies, including exact target, whowe all know where he ill drive the organization to both an IPO and a twopoint: seven billion dollar exit through the acquisition from salesforce. He is a former American business, Stevi wardwinner for vice presinentworldwide sales and is also owned and operated a sales training company. Hisfirst book, the Transparentcy Sail, is going to be released in the fall, andit's got a lot of interesting content that we will talk about today. Sowelcome tid to the show thanks Sarm, I'm disappointed, I'm not alreadyfamous, but you're right. I morking. This is all part of our master plan,perhaps name it's this then Kanya will tweet about you and then everybody willknol you that's right. I need a song exactly, let's quickly as we do yourbaseball card, so we can go over some just quick stat, so we know why weshould be listening to you. Your name is tod Gaponi. What's your currentonmost recent title, so I was Chieaf Revenue Officer of power reviews herein Chicago for the last three and a half years, so that still up and out asI'm moving into this transition phase, which is writing the book awesome forthose that are not in the know. What does power reviews do who? What ourpower resuce so power reviews? You know if you're on a website, O retailer orbrand and you're looking at a product you scroll down, you look at theratings and reviews, that's power reviews in many cases, so we helpprimarily brands and retailers collect and display ratings and reviews and QNA.So jetcom Crox. You know a lot of the big ones. That's kind of white labeledpower reviews run in in the background. Are you guys competitors with- and Imight have asked you this before, but like yacht to or trust pilot more Yapo,so that the two primary competitors that we would run into would be Yatpoend bizarre voice? Okay, awesome great! So, what's the revenue range of power,ofviews power eviews- has got a really interesting story, but right now,they're running in that twenty five million to fifty Minon ar range, thecliff notes version is they were acquired by bizarre voice. Thedepartment, Od Justice shut, it down, force the divestiture, and then I camein in two thousand and fourteen to rebuild the sales force from a coldstart once the Department of Justice ruling cleared. That is a story I avenot heard before and startup bland the DOJ came in and shut it down. Wow Wathappen there host merger. So what essentially happened is I was twothousand and twelve. You know theyre two companies, primarily in the space,doing ratings and reviews and bizarre alwace, felt like it would make senseto blend the two and the power reviewse customers, apparently were upset about.It complained. It was under the line that the Department of Justice, asnormally look at they filed suit. They won and Matt Mog, who is the CEO ofpower, reviews restarted it in the summer of two thousand and fourteenwith about thirty employees and seven reps, and you know over the last threeand a half years we built that to about a hundred and fifty employees and myorganization, as I'm on my way out now, has a little over sixty people wow.Well, congratulations on restarting the...

...startup. That's sounds incrediblydifficult. So tell us: How long have you been in startup land? What's yourbackground before power reviews? Well, I you know back in the s so dating myself. Here I was doingthe big companies, so I did computer associates. I DID SAP in one thousandnine hundred and ninety nine sap for anybody who's been around in thetextbase from back. Then there was this thing called the year: Two thousandcrisis, where, as the clock moved to January, first, two thousand peoplethought that planes were going to fly out of the sky and nuclear bombs aregoing to go off and we're all going to die of fiery death and, as a result,companies were going to the SAPS and the orchles of the world and saying ripout what I've got put in a whole new infrastructure s, one thousand ninehundred and ninety nine. I did eight hundred and seventy two percent of mynumber- and I thought my shit didn't stick like Iam Awesome and I realizedthat it was like working at a drivethrough window, but companies arejust pulling up and throwing money out at us. togreat situation to be in itwas great, but you know being really all about money at the time. I saw allthese startups that were coming you kno kind of blasting out of garages, andthese guys that, like there was a guy that I knew that was selling woodenpalates came to sap for, like three months, went to a start up and thencashed out for a million bucks, and I was like all right. I could outsellthat dude in a minute, I'm gointo go jump out and do the startup thing, andso in March of two thousand is when I started that and that also happeing tocoincide with the bubble. First thing: the top of the market in the techbubble was march of two hsand the day I left and it was all downhill from there.I did a fantastic job, O running start up into the ground for a few year. Ifeel like you're, describing my cryptocurrency investment cycle, justas everybody's out I'm deciding now is the time to buy a theory exactly thosebastards and so twothousand the world is ending. I remember it well. I knowthat ninety nine- I was my roommates out of college. We were all talkingabout what businesses we could start in them by twos house e, more happy, wework and finance again. So what are the startups that you worked on after sap?Well, I DID THERE WASN'T COUPLE E: Was a company called ICG commerce back inTwothousano? That was just throwling money around? We were burning money ata pace that was unbelievable. Tey was headcore, ordered in Philadelphia,second floor of an office building where the first floor was an outbacksteakhouse. So we would get in at about seven in the morning and they wouldalready be cooking, those damn blooming onions and you could smell them in yourconference room, but we were just crinking away that just didn't work outthat the CEO felt like. If we didn't become the largest company in the world,it was going to be a failure and it was a eat. PROCAREMENT technology, like allright, dude oet a little bit Overirando company called Arecipio, which was inkind of the digital marketing space, just kind of starting out with ias kindof like a qualitative feedback engine for retailers, which was pretty coolthat I did that for about a year and a half and then after September eleventhere was just no money and no spending going on, and I found myself out on thestreet. I went to Hiperon, which is a big company again, and that was when Idiscovered that my true passion was for teaching and growing and learning, andI ended up throwing caution to the wind. I took all of my money and bought asales training company and did that for a few years. So, let's dive into that-and I think that should lead us to the book because I'm really interested insore of the concepts behind the book. But some of that actually sounds alittle bit like John Barros, who I think he was working atus so and thendecided to start his own sales, straining company. So what was themethodology? You know? You discovered this passion for sales. What were youtraining people on? Was it sort of Sandler stuff? WAS IT Miller Heiman?Were you using other people's ideas, or did you have a specific innovation thatyou were bringing to the market ut? Now I wasn't that smart. So I bought afranchise, it's not a well known franchise and I'm not even sure ifthey're still around, primarily the focused areas were cold callingtechniques. You know teaching that you know it's not about your opening. It'sabout how you respond and conversationally turn around negativeresponses. U that a lot, and then we...

...also had a forecasting methodologywhich was really interesting a way to visualize your pipeline, so that notonly were you very realistic ind where deals were in their stages, but youcould come in visualize your pipe plan and know how much prospecting you hadto do that day versus how much you need to be pushing through the backend ofthe funnel for me Y. U I didn't make much money doing it. It was a grind. Idid it for three years TBAT I look back. I never got an MBA but running my ownbusiness for those three years and then working with gus countless salesorganizations and seeing what they do well and what they don't and becoming atotal nerd for selling methodology. I feel like it was a tenexs investmentover if I would have gone and got my MBA, so it was a fantastic experiencethat set the Reste of my career on the path. Thatt's been one of the benefits,I think of being a consultant that I think some of US fail to appreciate.Sometimes speaking from experiences, you get dropped into all thesedifferent companies and you get to see people that do things well and dothings poorly. When you looked at all of these sales organizations and sawwhat were the common themes that they didn't do? Well, you know, and I'm suresome of them are pretty obvious, but any surprises. When I was doing thatcompany, I wasn't selling or training tech companies. Although there was acouple, I was training thanks and recruiting firms, and it was, I reallyspannd the whole Gamit of what companies sell and for me that wasreally interesting, because I'de been technology for that. You know the tenyears leading up to when I did that, and I've been tach ever since it wasreally interesting when you think about people in a business development rap ata bank, you probably have a senior vice president title, so congratulations andyour cold calling businesses to get them to switch the bank that they'reusing to the one that you're selling and Gosh. You talked about somethingthat's crazy, but none of these business owners are waking up in themorning saying wow, you know what my bank, they hold money in a reallypretty safe, and I like it to be in this other Sish, the differenceis. Itwas such a commodity and some of these bankers are selling as though there'ssomething really special about their smile and the glimmer in their eyes.That's going to make these business owners suddenly just pull all theirmoney out of one bank and move it to another, and we really had to work onprograms that were about nurturing and establishing trust and providingsuscinct value and every interaction. Otherwise it was just a wasted effort,and so there were companies like that that Comoty sale that I'm just glad I'mnot in how do you sell a commodity, or how do you put position value in ashort interaction and what were some of the lessons that you brought to thoseorganizations? That's a good question. I mean every interaction that you havewith a potential buyer instead of having your sales had on and I'll talkabout this. When I talk about the book a little bit that our brains are allwired to resist being sold to and the second that we feel that somebody istrying to sell to us. The blocker goes up and as a banker, that's calling oranybody who's selling a commodity. We need to disarm that what I call theLYMBIC filter these buyers to want to build a relationship with you in theway that you do. That is essentially provide what I call suscinct value,which is every interaction, is not about you and your bank or whatevercommodity, that you're selling it's about ey. What can I do you to makeyour life potential byer a little bit better and do it in a brief way thatallows you to get on with your day immediately, and so it was justbuilding hase learn about their company. Congratulate them when something goodis going on, find different things that other companies like theirs are doingthat you can send over different press releases about their competitors, justbe helpful and eventually, when the time comes when they become in themarket or they realize that their current situation is no longersuspainable. You're, definitely going to be on the list of people. They callthat's interesting because part of what it seems to be talking about is almostlike an nurturing philosophy to the sales process and did you find pushbackfrom? I don't know managers or even...

...sales people that were saying tod,that's all well and good, but that doesn't help me structure theinteraction or drive enough urgency to close the steel on the timeline that Ineed to close it. On Yeah I mean it's a really good point being in a space likethat. It's quite an investment like thinking about power, reviews, forexample. So why don't we switch back the TECH SINCE THA? Probably more youraudience. You know power reviews we collect and display ratings and reviewson retailer and burand websites. If you go to bizarre voices site, that's whatthey do, you go to Yop post ite, that's what they do. So how do you create anenvironment where, when everybody looks exactly the same that your creatingopportunities for yourself, there are numbers to it. There absolutely are,but you've got to make every one of those calls matter, and I could go on abig tangent about how the brain works, but essentially your planting seeds ina buyer's brain every time that you're interacting with them and if that feelslike Youre selling to them. Those seeds end up establishing a stronger filterto which they're not going to want to work with you. Let's move to the bookyou've mentioned a few times. The brain is not programmed to be sold to andprobably there's some kind of fighter flight. You know mechanism or some kindof chemical, that's admitted when we feel like we're being pressured intodoing something. We don't want to do, or maybe we just don't like being toldto do anything and and how do you disarm that? And then? How does thatrelate to some of the themes in your book, which I guess is called theTransparency Sall? So I assume that the point is that try to be moretransparent but walk us through the philosophy so that power reviews.Obviously we do a lot of studying for our clients to understand what works,and you know these companies like crocks. They want people to come totheir site a they want to be able to provide all the information they needto make a purchase, and then they want them to purchase. One of the studies wedid found that on a five scale. So you've got your star ratings, a one Ofive, that conversion to sales is at its hige Askd, when your star rating isbetween a four two and a four five. So what that means is that a product witha four point, two score sells more than a product with a five and what thatalso, when you think about taking that to the sales world, we have all beentaught to sell as though our product is perfect, it's a fove and being taughtto sell that way actually puts up the LYMBIC filter, which means that yourbuyers, what are they doing? They're checking they're asking you forreferences, they're, back channeling, you? They might be checking thegartners and the foresters of the world they're trying to understand the fullpicture, because that's what their brain requires and in a transparencysale. You actually embrace and leave with your vulnerabilities from thefirst conversation and when we've been doing it at power revuse. It is amazing,what's happening, but it's speeding, sale, cicles, it's disarming buyers towhere you're buildingng faster, trusting relationships, and it'sactually setting up the implementation, so post sale. Much more collaborationthere because you've actually built in an understanding that you're notperfect. What's an example of like a pitch pretransparency that would belike a more common pitch and we can use power ofviewsence. I think we all getthe category and then like, what's an example of how you modified it suchthat to your point, because the one of the points that you made, which isreally interesting, is the increased sales cycle. If maybe we can, by beingmore honest, we can shorten the SAL Sycl. I think we'Rallwe're allinterested in that so like. What's U before and afters, can I give you acrazy example? FIRST CRAZY EXAMPLE: I'm sure you've been to an Ikia aright. Ihave o yeah, so I yer go of my own accord because they're awful horribleplaces so Ikea. If you were selling against thy Kea, wouldn't you think itwould be incredibly easy. You have to go in. You find the product that youwant. You have to write down or take a picture with your phone, the codes youcan find it yourself in the warehouse you go downstairs. You get a cart withcrappy wheels. You try to load this thing on the car, then roll it out toyour car, which you have to come, move to a designated spot. You loadit intothe car drive home with a few moinor injuries. You get home, you open thebox, there ae literally no words and...

...the instractions. It's all visuals thatlook like a child Tou them. Yet Ikea is the largest retailer in the world fiveyears round furniture retailer. So why? Well it's because they're proud of that.They make the point to every customer and consumer that he listen. There'ssome things about your experience that are not going to be its good, so thatthe other parts are going to be fantastic and those parts are, you know,modern design, a cost that you can deal with. You know not having to pay forshipping like some of those types of things, they've come out and Overtleysaid this is what we're not good at. This is what we're good at now thecompany like power reviews. One of the examples is I went into. There was bigperil retailer in New York. You know, I ran a team, but I had a rap that waslike hey. This client wants to meet with somebody next week in New York henyou come with and I was like Hey I'm in New York right now. Let me go see himand so ef he set it up. I went in. I went and saw this guy that afternoon hebrought a whole team in and h said: Tod, listen, I'm looking at you and I'mlooking at your primary competitor, tell me and he was a total New York guy.Like really aggressive he's like tell me why your better and my pitch was e.can I actually start with why we're not, and I gu kind of looked at me funny-and I said he listen. Our competitor has been developing an ancellarysolution to what kind of a courd reatings or user they're focused onthis part. TAT's called ADTEC, and it's really interesting. There's a lot ofcompanies that are seemingly liking. What they're working on I got to betotally honest. It's not something! That's even on a road map and the guylooked at me and he was like all right. Well, that's not something that wereinterested in anyway. I mean we're focused on this area like right. Well,we're making that sacrifice. So we can be really good at our core and here'swhat we do better and once we did that the guys demeanor changed the wholeroom changed and at the end of the meeting with about ten minutes left, hekicked everybody out of his office. He pulled out a spreadsheet. I've neverhad a client through this. This is a VPV commerce. He pointed at the budgetline that aid exactly how much he had so it's his whole budget. He pointsedthe line he's like. Can you hit that number and the deal was down in aboutthree weeks when, with a big apparel retailer like that, it would probablyhave taken three to six months. We just cut through the crap. He had made thisdecision by the end of that meeting, but just the way that I went aboutbeing as transparent as I possibly could, and just laying our flaws out inthe table to start with, so there was never a time where he felt like he wasbeing sold to that's a great example. That's one of the apparently the keysright lead with your. Am I getting this right that the first part is, of course,the book's not going to be available to the fall, but lead with your weaknesses.Is that the essence of it, or are there more sort of pillars of thetransparency sal that we should be mindful of well yeah? There are thatfirst, one. The way that I put it in the book is that you think aboutselling, as though you're a four point, two to four point: Five and stopselling as though you're five and I'll talk about different techniques thatyou can use to figure out. What are the right vulnerabilities that you can leadwith, so it's not a young sales, REP STARTE in the conversation with hey.This is why we suck good the Yes exactly, then the the other twoconcepts that I've learned an awful lot and studying for like why. Why does theBrain Act? This way, one of the things that has been talked about so often inneuro science and it's talked about in marketing a lot, but not as much insales is that it's been confirmed that we make decisions based on feelings andthen justified them based on logic, and it's a hundred percent of the time tothe point where I found a research study about a guy who had a tumor onhis feeling center, which is at Limbic Partyobran when they removed that theydid some damage to the connection and the guy literally lost his ability tofeel and have emotions and what ended up happening. He divorced. He lost hisjob. He literally couldn't decide to get out of bed in the morning likegetting out of bed. He just did sit there for two hours until somebodydragged them out of that. The point...

...there is that sales professionals,we've always been talked to Tho cell, focused on logic, e. here's the Ry,here's the features, Here's the Beneets, but are we inspiring feelings inemotion and painting a picture for the client, because that is what drives thesale? It's the feeling and in the end, they'll back it up with the logic. Sothat's that's point number two and then point number three again anotherneuroscience piece here, but what all this research is also shown- and you'veprobably heard about this, but again not really made its way: Ito sellingfoundations yet. But Ninety five percent of all the decisions that youmake in a day are made subconsciousy, meaning as somebody's listening to thispodcast right now after every sentence, they're making a decisionsubconsciously as to whether or not they want to stop it and go dosomething else or keep listening. And we don't think about that when we'reputting together our emails when we're pitching when we're givingpresentations and even when we're negotiating- and I view those threethings- that the transparency and that decision science is a real opportunityto have sales professionals or anybody who influences whether it's recruiters,whether it's Thour CFO, that has to pitch to board to use all of that dataand all that science that I've dome down to an eighth grade level,essentially for good, not evil. So how do we do that? And some of this isreminding me, I'm sure if you're pronounced at Cil, Dini or cld, butanyway, Robert Cildy, an that Dasin, this book influence. But how do we takeadvantage of the emotional undercurrence of a sales cycle and alsothe fact that the subconscious is really the person or the thing that isdriving decision, making? Give us some ideas about how to do that yeah. So thesubconscious part is really interesting. The fact that we're you know a buyer,our goal in a sale cyclist. They get that fire to make one decision at PN,which is to buy whatever we're selling that they're making literly thousandsof microsdecisions along the journey as to whether they'l continue down thepath with you. So when you think about every email, interaction like what arethe types of things that you're doing to make, somebody feel in those emailsfeel good about themselves. Feel related. You know. One of the conceptsthat you think about is an an example that I talk about is imagine thatyou're with a buddy and you're in a town you've never been in you'rewalking down the street, and you see two restaurants, there's one on theleft and the one on the right and you're hungry, so you'R, two of Youredeciding where Youe going to go, the one I'm alaft looks pretty empty Thuone on the right has a couple of people out in front like which one do you goto. I go to the Lonego people out in front right and why? Because there'speople there there's no reason you didn't read: Yelp reviews, nobody toldyou about it. It's literally a couple of people out in front, and that makesno sense subconsciously right. There is the element of making a potential buyerfeel like there's volume. There's people there there's little techniqueslike that that you can use to you know: subconnciously drive a Byer to thinkdifferently about your solution, just that as an example wout an example belike if I'm emailing with the buyer- and I say- and they say, can you meetit eleven am. Can we do the call at eleven? And I say actually, I've gotanother client call at eleven, but I can do twele thirty woulh that be anexample or what's tha specific example that a rap listening to this can takeaway. That's a perfect example: My mother had niee surgery scheduled forjust before Thanksgiving and the day before they realized she hadn't had anekg done, so they cancelled the surgery. My mom was like hey I'll, get thkt donethis afternoon. Can we do the surgery the next day and the doctor said? No,we've got away four weeks, that's the next opening and she was angry, but Iwas excited because if the guy said well, when you want to come in, ive gotnothing going on, it tells you that he's probably not very good. That is areally good example, so that, when we're leading with our prospectingefforts specifying in our prospecting, when you are available to me, theminute that I hear a sales rap say hey: when can you meet I'm open all weeknext week, like that's like the doctor...

...example, that tells you that wow nobodyelse is talking to you, but if you're very specific around your ask aroundthe time and day hey look's meet Wednesday at ten o'clock, it doessubconsciously, create that perception that you're in demand wow, that's veryuseful when you think about the best way to deploy. Is it redesigning thesale cycle like? Is there methodology that you'd hope that you know vpslslistening would employ to Redo the sales process, or is it really trainingthat accelerates or augments the existing sales methodology? Hey, youcontinue to do spin or value base selling if you want, but these aretactics and strategies. This is a philosophy. That's going to essentiallyimprove when rates through the course of the conversation yeah. It'sdefinitely the latter. When you talk about the evolution of sales- and Ilisten to your podcast number, two ith Steve Denton and he talked about howselling is changed. This really isn't a methodology shift. If you think aboutwhat he talked about and what I'm sure all sales people are aware of isbecause there's so much information available to buyers, they don't needyou like they did before. So you had to change your language and your approachinto what it's called insight, selling or formalized with the Challenger Sale.But now buyers have tons of information about why you're good and why you'renot it's very easy for them to find out your flaws and when you think about it,these buyers they're going to look for your flaws and in many cases they'regoing to find them and not come back to you. You know it freaked me out. When Ilook at a pipelane and see the next step is I'm chasing this guy or Ihaven't heard from her for a while or they've gone silent. A lot of it isbecause they've gone out and they've taken a look and found out. Why you'renot very good and the momentum has fallen by the wayside if you're, theone that's presenting those flaws, their brain actually doesn't drive themto go look elsewhere as much and that's why you can speed sale cycles becausethey stay with you. The same exact thing happens on websites, one of ourclients, hat power. eviesed was a bookseller that didn't have ravingsprviews on their site and what we found in looking at their analytic data isthat people were looking at the book. So let's say it's the transparency Sayr.Whenever comes out and finding that there's no reviews, we could actuallysee they were going to Amazon and we were making the assumption that theyjust fen looking at the Ip dresses that they were not coming back because theywere finding what they needed over there and then making the purchasethere, leading and being transparent and selling. As though you're a fourtwo TOA, four five versus of five is going to keep your buyer with you, keepthat lymbic filter disarmed and make them trust you, and I promise you thatsale cycles are going to speede up and that's a philosophical change. Yeah Imean, I guess, the immediate but there's an answer to this question.They meade it red flag or not a red flag, but the thought that comes tomind as well. What if the Weakis s is the central value proposition of theproduct, but I guess in that case you're going to have to find a new job.So what I found is, if you go through an exercise and you understand who yourcompetitors are and where they're better than you. You know, one of thethings that leading with your transparency is going to help with ishelp. you qualify, deals better and save you an awful lot of time now.Imagine if I led with that ad tech example at that retailer up in New Yorkand Adtech was the most important thing that they cared about at that time. Howis I going to sell around it if that's nowhere on our roadmap TNAT, somethingthat we support in anyway? Eventually, I'm going to lose that deal eventually,I need to be focusing on the deals that are really in our core and our sweetspot and they're going to figure that out so either. I need to have a reallygood answer for that or I need to go focus on a different type of client,and I think that that's part of this core here is you, don't necessarilyhave to if there's things that they're better than you at you know, one of thethings that you can do is an exercise before you go in. The tacto client isfigure out like which are the the differentiators that aren't going tomatter as much to them, and you can lead with those because again, it stillserves the purpose of making them feel like you're, not selling to them andyou're a trusted partner. Here, that's trying to be transparent and makingsure that you're illuminating some things that they might care about thatsomebody else might be better aut yeah,...

I like it. A Lot I'm actually thinkingabout it in the context of you know the company, where I'm working right now,behaveox one of the things that it sort of brings me back to, which is a pointthat I emphasize a lot, is just the incredible importance of qualificationand discovery and how much of the sale is one or lost at the beginning of thesales process. Yeah. Absolutely one of the things that I laugh about is thatwhen I hear people still using bant is their qualiffication. I think that thattime has kind of come and gone and that in training and some of the fundamentalthings that I see, we don't spend as much time on qualification skills, asmaybe we should. I think this transparent approach it should help. Wefound t a power reviews as trying this thing out, that it was helping us tovet deals and build stronger advocates faster, but yeah. It's a really goodpoint is your point that bant is necessary but not sufficient, or thatit's not relevant at all. You know when I think about ways of figuring outwhether the deal is worthwhile or not in an enterprise sale. There's a lotmore to it, and a lot of it relates to the consensus that we have to buildwithin the people that are essentially below the power line that are going toinfluence the people that are making the decision. But I do find thatfiguring out. Okay, do these people know how much money it's going to costand who's going to be making the decision, and when are they going to bemaking it? I still find that helpful, but I'm always happy to change. Isthere a better qualification methodology that you have or well right,get reeady for the cheese tims called his takin, the customers, temp and soTMP is the acronym, and you know the first tea. Is there a trigger in theorganization that makes them understand that their status closes no longersustainable? It's you know like what used to be called the compelling event,but are we able to identify whether or not the buyer feels the exact same wayas us? That trigger is an important thing, because we lose what aty percentof our deals to the STATU this quall. The E is engagement with our reps, thatone thing that I'm rap is never never heard me yell at anybody. It's not myapproach, but they know that if there isn't a next step with the specificdate in time that shown on the buyers calendar to they're not engaged, andwhat I mean by that is, you know evidence of an engaged customers shownby their willingness to make more time for you and put you in their calendar.You know similar to you're going to go to the denntist in ten days like whatdo you start doing now? Probably Start flossing right. What we find withbuyers is, if it's in their calendere they're, going to be prepared for itand they've shown that they're engaged through that willingness to put you inAr Calenar. The BM is for mobilizer, which is a corporate executive boardlingo for have we identified the person in the organization that can bobilizechange in the organization. So it's not that we're just dealing with anexecutive, but is it somebody that is going to make things happen and there'stechniques for identifying that and then the p? Is there a plan, meaningyou know it's kind of the timing from bants? But do we understand if theirstatus quote is no longer sustainable by when and if we started to workbackwards with them? Do we know when a dedecisionis going to be made, and sothe temp again I is there a trigger? Are they engaged? Do we have amobilizer and have Wa identified a plan with Kimbing? That's going to get us toa decision. Those are the four that I've used. The reason that Bant for meis not been great, as the budget is sometimes challenging, especially in achallenger sale type of era, a lot of times. If we're dealing with a truemobilizer and OOUR organization, they're going to go find budget. If wefind out they don't have budget that shouldn't disqualify the deal. Ifthere's an enough of a compelling trigger in the organization that saysthat their status quose and sustainable yeah, and then the timing is a lot oftimes off to, I can't tell you how many deals where the initial timing that wediscussed did no way reflects reality. That's certainly true. The budget thingis a super interesting question to your point. One of the things I use it foris just to figure out. Do they know how to buy software in general, becauseI've been surprised at the number of...

...enterprise sales conversations I'vebeen in where it's a group of business users, they ostensibly they sort oftheoretically have budget, but they've actually never purchased anythingbefore and so figuring out, and that's what we need to mobilizer Forfi,helping them understand how to buy and how to go get budget if they don't haveit as often a task that I need to do for them to help them through theprocess. Yeah I mean, I think, that that plan elements N A plan isdifferent than timing in that, if you're, really good and youretransparent one of the ways that you can disarm the the buying feeling thatkind of Limbic chilter that I talk about is, if you're able to go in andsay he listen t. This is common like I'm, probably not teaching anybody theyanything, they don't know, but to go through a sequence of events. That'smutual with the buyer and say you listen. We've worked with a lot ofcompanies like yours. Here's some of the curve balls that are likely tohappen and lay it out into a sequence of events or a plan and have them agreewith you and if you're teaching them about the pitfalls and theirorganization that they don't know they're going to face because you'vefaced them at five other companies, that's really valuable and beneficial,and you end up with a timeline. That's a lot more accurate and easy toforecast. That speaks back to your broader point of transparency, which issomething I try to employ, which is hey. These are the five things that aregoing to happen. These are the clauses in your MSA that we're going to have anissue with, and this is the one we really care about and these as the onesthat we don't care about by the way you know one of the things I've been doingI' becurious on your thoughts on it. As I start giving a discounting schedule,I say like we're going to send it to procurement. The procurement person'sjob is to get the price lower, we're happy to lower the price. Here's theways that we lower the price and, typically for me, it's a certain dy ofclosure or timeline. So Hey. If we can hit these deadlines, we can lower theprice and also, if you're, willing to be reference. Bor, give us case thaties we might be aoer the price as well, but just so that I'm not, it doesn'tfeel like I'm negotiating with sort of like a trick behind my back, but I'msaying Yep, I understand you want a lower price. Here's how to get it. Youare going to love the chapter on transparent negotiation, Thet'sgontothat's exsentialy. Yet I mean a lot of times. We've been taught tonegotiate as though we're in a Texas holdem tournament, and we got to hideour tells and wor sunglasses and not like not twitch, and you know transparnegotiation. It's exactly what you said. It's going in, like your Silenc Sass,it's going in and saying hey, let's Sen, here's the four things that we can payyou for in the form of a discount. I will pay you for committing e, morevolume to paying faster, to committing longer and helping the forecast, andyou can roll your own deal. That's what transparent negotiation is and ifyou're working that in the first time you talked about pricing when youdeliver the proproposal and at the time you actually get down to negotiatingit's flowess you'll get bigger deals, you'll get better, forecastable deals,you'll, get longer commitments and you'll probably get paid faster yeah. Ilove Itit's good stuff. I mean it's just you know the reason I do it isbecause I'm so fucking impatient. I don't want the back and forth of havingsomething be obscured and then debating with myself whether turveal it I'drather just say, here's everything that I know about myself and about you andlike, let's start from there so and again, a lot of it's just driven. Ijust want to get the deal done quicker, so you know, if there's going to be anissue, I'd rather find out about it soon or rather than later. Well yeah, Imean we just get a big renewal with one of our apparel manufacturers. Otpowereduse and I literally laid that out for him and had him roll his ownrenal, because he came after MHE and said: Tod Space is commonitizing. Weneed twenty percent off. Okay, here's how you get twenty Fai percent Oge, youknow commit longer pay faster and, like here's, the percentages that aline tothose- and he said all right I'll- do ten percent off and I'll commit forthree years. It sounsit amazing, when you give people a framework and it juststructures the whole conversation. The same thing happened to me recentlywhere they said. Well, we want to lower price happy to do that. If you sign byMa First, I can give you x percent off they and now they are the ones emailingme seaying, hey. We really got to get this done to hit that may for steadline.I said Wat yeah, no I'll tell you, there's two Il Liv, you it two lasttips there one is rapd since the...

...beginning of time I've had deadlines,proposals and most of the time buyers, don't understand why and so the minutethat I taught our sales raps and I've been doing it to explain why that date,maatters that hey, listen, Mr misss buyer thears value to our organization,ind us being able to forecast our business. So this proposal expires theend of May and there's five percent in there for you, because there's value toout so we're paying you in the form of discount to get this done by the end ofback and just that language changes it so that when the end of May comes upand they say- Oh you know what our buyer is on a fricking boat in Atlantiand like there's. No cell phone signal and he's probably going to getswallowed into the ocean. Can we sign this in June and hold the price you cantell hem? I don't know remember what we talked about end Tomay here is why andit becomes a much better conversation than just saying no or just saying yesand having the deal slide. The June automatically one hundred percent inagreement very, very useful by the way reminds me of I don't know if it'sconomen or if it's seal Dini, but it's that word because it's when you explainbecause they've done all these psychological studies- and you know youcan say I think the example was one of the books was, can I cut in line?Nobody said yes and then can I cut in line, because this is the reason why?Because I'm really in a hurry, which is by the way I just a way of saying, canI got in line at the compliance? You know the willingness of people to giveyou what you want when you just provide an explanation it trigger something inthe brain that makes them more unmeanable. As we say, yeah Cldmi stuffis great, is newer. One prersuasion is as staple for me it's fantastic andit's one of the things that got me really excited about neuroscience,which I don't know if the kind of the world isn't paying enough attention toit, but the advance is theyre making and understanding how the brain worksare incredible and I think it's an opportunity for sales people like ifyou know how the brain works and how the brain makes decisions shouldn't.You know that as a salesperson shouldnt, you try to take advantage of that andthat's what I'm trying to do- and I know Saldni and a lot of these guyshave been doing it more focused on marketing. But there's a lot in salesthat we could learn about brain function and decision science they'regoing to help us pay the buyer in making better decisions, make fasterdecisions, make decisions they can be proud of, and that's what I'm trying tobring that. The funny thing is like I've been reading, all these like pureneuro science books and by the way, there's so many advancements happeningin like how we can we treate autism howcanwe to treat all seimers they'refinding all of these little things like. I think that next twenty years aregoing to be fascinating around that, but they speak at such a doctoral levelthat in the book, what I'm trying to do is take it down to like an eighth gradelevel that even I can understand and make it as useful as I can for salespeople. If it's as good as it sounds like it's going to be, then I willdefinitely buy a copy. I will download it to my kindle and my e reading deviceNice. Thank you, you'll, be the one yeah exactly you're the one Lhistenonmy podcastand, I'm the one reader of your bookets, your midscheme. We canplay. Let's pay it forward a little bit, Wi we're sort of a you know, a few moreminutes in the interview and I'd love to it's always really interesting,especially with people that have been doing it for a little while to hear whotheir influences are and who are the people that inspire them across therange of personalities there an startup plan, so any VPSOF sales or Cros orsort of sales leaders that, particularly because I'm in New York,I'm a Big New York guy. I know a lot of people in New York. I don't know thatmany people in Chicago so who should we know about from the world of sales andselling? That's been an influence on you. Well I'll tell you, you know itChicago, but I think you'd be shocked at the the ecosystem of Tach. That'sblossoming in Indianapolis of all places you know, which is where exacttarget was founded and exploded with growth and ended up with that fantastice said. You know, I know, he's not a cro, but he was the Teo and thecofounder Scott Dorsy that guy you know. He really came with a sales first typeof approach to building an organization and he's one of those guys that, evenwhen he's mad he's smiling so that the...

...culture that he os from the top, Ithink, is just fantastic and then he hired a guy like Andy cofoid. So AndyCofoyd was the senior vice president of sales and now he's the chief operatingofficer overseeing the entire marketing cloud for sales force, wow guys theyjust epitomize how I would want to model my approach, which isencouragement. How do you get better results out of people by making thembetter at what they do and making them like build within themselves? Thisthirst for learning and getting better, and so those two guys have beenfantasic man. I worked with lots of them over the years. You know Dj Paoni,who is now the president of Sap North America is a guy that he and I startedtogether back at h, CA and SK back in th, and it's just a quality human beingthat just does things the right way. So there's a lot of stars in Chicago andthe overall Midwest. Well Indianapolis was not a word I expected to hear onthis podcast, and so you have already done something unexpected. What abouton the personal side, any books that you're reading that you think we shouldknow about? You know you mentioned a few to me about neuroscience. If wewanted to sort of get started there, what are the one or two introductoryyou know references that we should be reading? Well, it's funny you aske thatwriting a book. So if anybody ever who's listening to this is thinkingabout writing a book reach out to me. I've learned so much in this process.One of the funny things that I just found is that there's this place andit's called the library and they have freery books that you can borrow thatdoes make any sense. How does the library business exactly it's like? Howdoes the bottom water industry, Spain business? I can just get it fror. MyChap I've had to spend a lot of time because doing the research for thisbook. It's quite been effort at any one time. I've got eight books checked outat a time. You know right now. A lot of what I'm reading and focusing on is thethe neuroscience stuff and man there's some really really good ones. lite. Youknow Seoldini and some of those guys round. Brain science are reallyinteresting. There's a book called Brain fluence by Robser duly and againit's marketing focused, but he has like a hundred little tips around. If youknow how the brain works, you can modify your marketing efforts to bebetter at what you do and there's some interesting kind of stales take awaysfrom that one. You know: There's a bunch of podcast TA Livs into ther,there's two neuroscience books that I've read lately that are incrediblyinteresting. I might be the only guy that would think so, though, butthere's this book called decarts air by Antonio Damasio and it talks aboutthose different regions in the brain and what happens when you have damageind different reasons of the Braim and tell stories about how people's liveshave changed based on them, and it is incredibly interesting to hear storieslike theres there's, one of this guy phineas gauge, who Wilemailinarineesgauges famous he's, got the thing through his head to spike exactlytamafio talks about that story about what happened in his life as a resultof Dalimbic kind of the mid brain being taket out with the Post. He lived likefor a long time. After I mean it was crazy story yeah and he was actuallyjoined the circus for a little whiewhile and would show People Thopipe and show people the hole in his head. Damn, but another guy thatcouldn't make a decision and his whole life fell apart after it happened thatone's super interesting there's another one called the man who mistook his wifefor a hat and the the title sounds crazy. But it's again, it's aneurosciece one around different brain issues, thathave that Oliver Sax Findot.It is yes, YEP HEU, just PA a great writer. Oh, I didn't know that thatSaud to hear tbat super interesting stuff. It's okay! We neither of us,know him. It's all right. We wish him the best. That's right, Restin, pase,exactly well tod Lisse! This has been fantastic. I'm super super excited forthe transparency sale, I'm frankly quite interested in thinking about andreminating on, temp, which is trigger engagement. What's The m finding themobilizer mobilizer and then P is pland Aplanr, so temp, I'm actually Goinno.Try think about using that because I do...

...believe so strongly and some of thoseconcepts and I'm excited for your book nd, and I really appreciate theopportunity to get to know you more. So thanks so much if folks want to get intouch with you, how do you prefer it yo anytime, on it's transparency, salecom,O wit, and just how it sounds you want to sign up for updates. I promise I'mnot a spammer. I don't have a newsletter bat! You can go! It's reallyeasy to find, and then I've got some other resources on there but mall. Mycontact information is on transparency, salecom awesome. We will get in touchthat way. Thank you. So much for joining the sales hacker, podcast andI'll talk to you soon, all right Sain that was fun. Everybody at SAM's corner. Anothergreat conversation this time with Tod Copony, who used to be CRLA power.Reviews now he's writing his own book. The transparency sales sounds quitegood and there's a bunch of little interesting tidbits that I picked up on.One of them was this concept that you need to, or can create almost theillusion or the appearance of scarcity, and so one of the ways that tod- and Italked about doing that- was not just telling the prospects that Hay mycalentars light open. I can do any time between eight N, thirty am and seven PM,but really managing your calendar as if, even if you're not busy giving theappearance of being busy with other clint conversations to imply and toimpress upon the prospect that there are other people that are interested inthe product that you're selling. So that may be a specific proposal of atime saying: Hey, I'm free at ten PM or ten am, and I'm also free at three PM.Twou want to call me then, or it may be some other mechanism to convey thatyour time is valuable and scarce, and that's because it's driven by clientsnow one of the things I will say is: please don't make scarcity a functionof your personal facation schedule. I've often canceled meetings with raps.When I wanted to get a demo or I actually wanted to have a moresubstantive negotiation and they say well, I'm actually going to be out oftown the next four days. Can we do it next Tuesday? And at that point Itypically request a new wrap or cancel the conversation altogether. That'sbecause a I'm a little bit of a Dick, and he because I want the conversationto be about the prospect and me in that case and not about somebody's personalvacation schedule. Now, if you are somebody that I've done that too, Iapologize in advance. But you know the lesson for my perspective is make itabout the prospect, while still creating the illusion of scarcity. Ifthe reality is not quite there yet, but make it about the product and thebusiness not about when you need to get to the gym or often need to work out orwhen you need to go on vacation or whether you and your family are goingto be in the PAMAS or anything like that, and I'm sorry if I'e pissed youoff by using specific examples from your real life. This has been SansCorner and I'll. Talk to you, son, to check out the show, notes, see upcomingguests and play more episodes from our incredible line. Up of sales leadersvisit sales, hackercom podcast. You can also find the sales hacking podcast onitunes or Google play or anywhere that you consume your podcasts. If youenjoyed this episode, please share with your peers on linked an twitter or elseware special thinks again to this month's sponsors at Gong, see moreGongdot, IO, forsash salestacker. And finally, if you want to get in touchwith me, you can find me on twitter, at Sam f Jacobs or on Linkdon atlinkdoncom. Ah and Sam Oth Jacobs, see next time.

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