The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode 213 · 5 days ago

Branding a Company that Specializes in Account Based Marketing

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode, we've got Nirosha Methananda with us. Nirosha is the VP of Marketing at Influ2, where she is responsible for branding and building the trust of its community. Influ2 allows marketers and businesses to advertise directly to people and have a clear understanding of their engagement and tangible data for sales.

What You’ll Learn

  1. Account Based Marketing means that the point of sales and marketing alignment is simply joint planning process & goals.
  2. There needs to be shared metrics, shared account planning and account mapping to understand what accounts need
  3. How inspirational Nirosha’s story and career background can be for many

One, two, one, hey everybody at Sam Jacob's. Welcome to the sales hacker podcast. Today in the show we've got a NEUROSIA Methananda. She's the VP of marketing at in flew two and she's had a rich and storied career across a wide set and a diverse set of experiences. You know, she originally wanted to be a criminologist before ultimately getting her toe into the front door at a stationary reach other in Australia. That ended up leading to great things, leading to building out a technology consulting practice for P WC in Australia and then ultimately becoming the VP of marketing for Bambara and now in flew too, and it's a great journey and she has a lot of really useful and interesting insights about how people make decisions in the modern era and about how sales and marketing teams can really end more effectively and practically drive alignment. So great conversation. Before we get there, let's hear from a work from our sponsors and then we will hear my conversation and interview with Narrosia Methananda. This episode of the Sales Hacker podcast is brought to you by outreach. outreaches the first and only engagement and intelligence platform built by revenue innovators for revenue innovators. Outreach allows you to commit to accurate sales forecasting, replace manual process with real time guidance and unlock actionable customer intelligence that guides you and your team to win more often, traditional tools don't work in a hybrid sales world. Find out why outreaches the right solution at click dot outreach dot io forward slash thirty MPC. That is click dot outreach dot io forward slash thirty MPC. This episode of the Sales Hacker podcast is sponsored by pavilion. Pavilion is the key to getting more out of your career. Our private membership connects you with a network of thousands of like minded peers and resources where you can tap into dozens of classes and training through Pavilion University. Make sure you take advantage of the pavilion for teams corporate membership and enroll your entire go to market team in one of our industry leading schools and courses, including marketing school, Sales School, Sales Development School and Revenue Operations School. Unlock your professional potential and your team's professional potential with a pavilion member ship gets started today at join Pavilion Dot Com. Once again, that's joined PAVILION DOT COM. This episode of the Sales Haccer podcast is brought to you by Veri sint. High Performing Revenue Organizations have a plan for growth. Get Yours with arrison. SET SMARTER goals and design territories to maximize your revenue potential. Create incentives that motivate the behaviors needed to achieve your goals. Use Ai driven insights to make better decisions and outdo previous performance. Learn how verisent can help you create a predictable growth engine. At verisent DOT com, forward slash sales hacker. Again, that is verisent dot com, forward slash sales hacker. Hi Everybody, it's Sam Jacob's welcome to the sales hacker podcast. Today on the show we're excited to have NAROTIA Methananda. She is a proud marketing generalist driven by a strong urge to always be learning, with the career spending close to fifteen years across many marketing disciplines and industries. She recently joined in flu two as its VP of marketing and is taking on the challenge to build out with the evolution of account based marketing looks like. In her most recent role, Rosia is responsible for creating Bambara's distinctive brand and...

...establishing it as the leading global provider of B two B intent data. Prior to this, nearrosia led marketing for PWC, Australia's tech consulting practice, dabbled in PR and journalism at power retail and gained an interest in digital and data at experience hit. Wise, not a morning person, narrosha enjoys stimulating conversation, adores witty sarcasm and is passionate about creating magical marketing moments. She took great joy and putting together this bio and jamming into a B acronyms and tries to take a rule number six approach to work in life. Narosha, welcome to the show. Thank you said. Thanks very much for having me where except we're excited to have you. Thank you so. I mean, there's so much in your bio. Normally we dive into giving you an opportunity to pitch in flu too, but I have some additional questions first. First of all, Um, when did you identify that you weren't a morning person? Um, well, I've I've had forty plus Y is, uh, probably pretty much from, you know, the time I to start going to school, you know, and getting up and waking up in the morning. Yeah, yeah, I'm not someone who gets up and is like Oh, it's a joy to be very early morning, particularly, particularly nowadays I have to I work with with Western with with Eastern Europe. So basic, L A, I couldn't be any further apart. I was going to ask you about that because you mentioned that you moved from New York to L A and that that working in California often mandates that you're a morning person. Yes, it does. I didn't quite realize that when I decided to make the move. It wasn't a factor in my in that decision. Had I known, I would and end up, you know, changing companies. Like the difference between New York versus. Um, you know, eastern Eastern Europe is a big difference. So, yeah, it's my days sometimes start at six am. That's not unusual for me to just hop straight on calls at six am. So Um, yeah, I'm I'm a grudging become me grudging me a morning person, but yeah, it's it's still grudging. The struggle as real as they say. And you mentioned also you say you try to take a rule number six approach to life. What is rule number six? So rule number six is Um. It's something that was actually a story that was related to me, but one of my coaches at PWC Um. And there's this story about to two prime ministers, and I'm probably going to butcher it, but you can definitely look it up and Google it. Um, two prime ministers sitting in a meeting, you know, having a conference and you know the one who's hosting you know, someone burst in and they're like, you know, whispering something to him, and he just sort of says you remember rule number six, so call they go back to having their conversation again, someone else bursts in and is like, you know, there's some emergency or whatever, and then he just sort of says remember rule number six, Um, and then the other the other prime minister or prisoner, whoever it is, sort of says what what you know? I'm so curious. What is this...

...rule number six? And essentially rule number six is just don't take yourself so damn seriously. And that's that's what it is. And I think sometimes, you know, with life and what's going on in the world and, you know, with work and so on and so forth, there's such a you know, everything becomes can become so big in your head around what is going on and it can become, you know, really unmanageable and it's it's it's kind of a little bit of a check yourself and, you know, saying like don't, don't take things so seriously. It's not, you know, it's not the end of the world to step it back and and Um and and just just have some perspective, perspective basically. So well, I agree with that approach oheartedly and I tried not to take myself too seriously. But we'll see, we'll see what my wife says about that. Um. All right. Well, let's dive into the heart of the matter. Um, you're the VP of my getting it in flu too, and we are. There are folks out there, including me, I don't know what in flu two is or does so tell us about the company a little bit. What do you all do? What's your mission? What problem are you solving? Yes, so, essentially, in flu to UH takes display and social media advertising out of the dark funnel. And what I mean by that is, you know, marketing teams invest a lot in their advertising and often it's not very tangible in terms of understanding you know who, who you're hitting in terms of accounts or indeed who's engaging in terms of people. So you know, in flu two has a product. It's called person based advertising. Essentially what it does is it allows um markers and businesses to advertise two people at accounts and directly to them and then understand what their engagement is with those ads and be able to have bring those insights back so that there's something tangible around your advertising and what really you know, one of the reasons that I joined in flu two was because one of the things that I think there's a big gap in terms of Um Marketing doing one thing and then sales having tangible results to follow up on. You know often that that that is a massive gap and, particularly coming from the world of intent, for me I saw that as a pain point. You know, cool, these accounts have intent, but well, when then sales is asking, well, who has who? You know, who is it at these accounts, and there are ways to be able to Um structure that and be able to find out. But so for me, with with in flu two's person based advertising solution, actually you can. You can immediately tell sales these people are engaging with this content and they're interested in this and it's not just like a clique or an impression or whatever it is. It's an aggregated engagement. So you have something tangible to actually pass back to sales. And essentially that's that's what influ two does. How...

...does it does it? Is it a stand alone platform? Does it require integrations? Does it sit, you know, with six cents on top of or demand base? Does it sit on top of salesforce? How does it work within the Marketing Tech St Act? Yes, it can. It can be stand alone, depending on your program it can be complementary to what you're doing within these platforms Um. You know, we see a lot of our customers use it Um, you know, as complementary because you know, even though those platforms do have an advertising Um part of them, it's not necessarily the same function as what influd to, you know, what Influ to perform. So it's used complementary. But if you we do have customers that use it stand alone. They use it directly and then they take it into their different systems to be able to set it up within, you know, their their C D P S, or into into their sales for CRMS, maps or um into slack for alerts and things and outreach and things like that for alerts. So it can be really used and configured in the way that's best for your business. Makes Sense. And how how old is the company and where is it in its growth journey? And you can answer that in any way that you want without revealing confidentiality. Sure. Um. So the company. It's the company is actually probably about five, five years old now. Um. So it's it's interesting because it's really Um, you know, it's not as young as a lot of people think it is, but from a brand perspective it's not well as well known. Um. And you know, part of that was our CEO, Dmitri. You know, he said he wanted when when he interviewed me, this is what he told me. He said, you know, I want to build something that is hard to replicate but easier to sell. Cool and when you hear the when you hear what influt you does, it's like, essentially it's a no brainer for me. I was like, yeah, that makes sense. Oh, I wouldn't. Why wouldn't I do that? The thing, the thing that Um we didn't necessarily have was the brand and the trust, and you know that's something that is important in terms of what needs to come. So that's that's essentially why I was brought on, to be able to help build up the broader marketing function Um and be able to help build out our brand, build out trust, educate the market more about the amount, about what it is. But from that perspective, Um, you know, the company is about five years old now. You know, it's about odd people and we're built building out the team more in the US. It was founded in in the Ukrainian Kiev, Um, and so a large part of our team does reside there as well. How is the recent you know, the war and Russia's invasion of the Ukraine? How has that impact of the company? Um? You know, it was incredibly challenging. I will I'M NOT gonna lie. It wasn't not challenging. Um. I will say like they don't make a handbook on a management and look for for war. Um. But I one thing that I think it taught me is Um you know, the way I see you,...

...are worked to make sure that our team was safe, to make sure that they had what they need and, you know, essentially Um, keep them safe. Was Amazing. Um, and the resilience of our team, of the Ukrainian people, is unbelievable to me. Um, I think if I was in that situation, I would have the work would have been the last thing on my mind, but it's certainly not for them. Um. You know, they very much were very dedicated to influ too and making sure, especially with our with our customer success team, with our sales team, making sure that that they didn't miss a beat in terms of like taking the calls, arranging for what they needed to and you know, it is challenging because you have a have a team that sometimes are in bomb shelters, you have them, you know, on the road and Um, you know, traveling to other other parts of the country or leaving the country or so on and so forth. But, you know, I think all things considered, it was it was very it was fairly smooth. We we've got our team to safety and Um, and you know, everything is so within a matter of weeks we were sort of back to back to sort of normal functioning or a new reality, as we all seem to be doing these days, adapting to all these new realities. But yeah, that was another new reality we had to face. So well, well, a testament to their fortitude and their resilience. So, and I'm sure, like you said, no, no playbook for it. Let's learn a little bit more about you. You know, obviously we hear the Australian accent. Um, tell us about your your origin. How did you get into marketing? You know a little bit about the journey. Obviously Bambara is a well known company. But walk us through, you know, the the evolution, your evolution as a marketer over the last you know, Um, Um, ten to fifteen, twenty years. Yeah, yeah, so, Um. You know, I didn't necessarily set out to be a marketer. I Um, I have. I'm going to steal a term from all I learned a term from just just desband. He's a he's a circle. It's called intentional serendipity. So I really liked that term for for my career because a lot of people would sort of look at it and think, what on Earth was she thinking? And I'm sure at the time my parents were really thinking that. Um, but, you know, I like to think it was intentional serendipity. Um. But I started I wanted to be a criminologist, Um, you know, coming out of high school. So that's that's sort of something I want to do. My mother was really worried about about me doing that because, you know, it's probably not the most sexy profession for for for an Asian daughter. Like prescribed paths and that was not one of them. Yeah, I mean it's Dcor, a lawyer or nothing. Right exactly. They got the lawyer. My brother is a lawyer. But yeah, so I I did, Um, a B A in psychology, or it was psyched. Well, my...

...majors were psychology and sociology and it was a b a of social science. Um, and I realized I really enjoyed the sociology part of my degree. Um. And then I went on to sort of do a Grad dip in pr because, you know, I didn't want to become a sociologist. I kind of wanted Um, you know, wanted to take a different path. Um. And then that that for me led to you know, I was I was working at it. I started at the bottom. I started as a PA for a small uh you know, immigration law firm and I was doing I was managing, managing their office and things like that, but also I was studying at the same time, so I did a little bit of marketing for them. I went to the UK, Um, and then worked for a law firm there, UM, and was in their finance training department. So that was a lot of events and scheduling and so on and so forth. So it really got got Um, that under my belt. there. Came back to Australia and worked for a company called office works. There are very large stationary a retailer, so kind of like Um Office Max here. Um. And you know, I I started as the PA to the CMO. Then, you know, I just said to her I'd like a foot in the door. Um, you know. She and that's that's what I wanted. So I, you know, I did my job. She and she she was great. And they had a massive marketing team, Um, you know, with every different function you could imagine. So I really got involved with their digital I got involved with, you know, the analytics, I got involved with the PR and so on and so for and so I sort of you know, moved into different roles there from that position. From there I went to a company called hit wise Um. So I don't know if hit wise has since been um since being acquired a number and a number of times, but hit wise is really was really about competitive intelligence, digital competitive competitive intelligence. So that's really where I got my interest in a lot of digital and data Um and I was the coordinator there and then moved into a variety of roles from there with power retail, into journalism, into special project management and then from there to p WC to set up, you know, their publication to market which is called digital pulse, which is actually still going in Australia. It's recognized as a as one of their leading B two B publications for a brand. And then from there I decided I wanted a life adventure and decided to come to the US and I landed the role with Bombora and I was with bomb Bara for a good five and a half years, building its brandon team and so on and so forth, and then landed it in flu too. So I have done a variety of different, different things and that's why I say like a lot of people would look at that and think what was she thinking, but it's, you know, it was intentional serendipity, as I like to say. Well, and also you're accumulating experiences. So you know, now you can leverage those experiences and call them wisdom, hopefully. Yes, thank you. Yes, so, you...

...know, your your mandated and flu too, is to the point, is to sort of build a brand, quote unquote. How do you do that? You know, what are the steps that go into the foundations of brand building and then and then what are the tools that you use to, once you've built that foundation, to sort of scale the brand and drive impact in the right way? Yeah, so, I mean part, a large part of what building a brand for me is about, all these, you know, is about education and especially with like you know, even with Bombora, it was intent. Data was a niche when when I first started there, and it's you know, it was a niche. So building out that niche category is a lot about education understanding. It's about penetration of the market. Um, you know, and that's something that I'm that I'm taking and doing an in flu two as well. In terms of person base. Advertising is something that is challenging. It's a different way of thinking about your advertising and it's you know, it's it's it's outside of what what the is it all is. So it's really a lot of it is about is about education, about transparency, Um, and about getting our voice out there. So a lot of it is content. For me, with marketing, a lot of stuff comes back down to content and making sure that that's some point. It's about the story and identifying ill, where does this fit in the pain point of your target audience, Um, and how do you bring that to life for them and humanizing Um. You know, that's that's that's the other thing. So I think from that that perspective, that's a that's a quarter brand building. Um. The other thing is the trust. And so how do you know? How do you build trust with people? It's it's for me, it's about humanizing the brand. So you know, part of part of our conversation is about me humanizing the band. You can hear my voice, you can, you know, understand that I'm a real person and that's a large part of what we've been doing in market is being able to go out, especially with our events. Um. You know, that's a great, great way to be a well, to start to Um in a tangible way articulate who we are from a brand perspective. Get people to come and meet us on the ground. Um, you know, we've been doing various activations at different events to be able to to sort of raise that attention and and and and start to build out that brand from that perspective. So those are probably the cool things that we've been focused on. How do you, how do you balance? Well, what's the narrative that you share with your founder, with Dmitri, because I can imagine, you know my experience, as a lot of founders they realize they need a marketing function, but then they don't often appreciate the time that it takes and building a brand is a multi year exercise. It's not something that happens in a quarter or two. And you know, you mentioned activations and I'm sure, I'm sure they were successful and I'm sure that that doesn't mean that there was ten thousand people, you know, going through the activation, whatever it may be, but it might have just been a few of the right people. And how do you,...

...how do you balance, like what how do you manage your your upwards effectively so that people can understand that marketing takes time and that it's not something where you snap your fingers and instantly get results. Yeah, it's it's a process, to be honest. Sam like Um, you know, we, I've been with him food too, for just over a year now and you know, we're looking back on retrospectively. We look at what's working and what's not working and Um, and you know, one of the things is around content, you know, and the content, you know, the connetities. Well, our content isn't necessarily working because, you know, people are it's not driving thousands of thousands of leads or whatever it is. The point is we don't need thousands of leads. Um. I think what what you know. It is being honest, as you say, about okay, well, what what are the tactics that we're using that are long term or medium to long term, and then what are the tactics and the things that we're doing that a short term, and being very clear about what what those results are. So you know, things that are a bit more tangible are, for example, like if we do reports and there's an immediate like lead collection, cool, great, we can. That's that's an immediate Um. That's immediate retention for us. Things that are like our events and we can meet people on the ground. That's immediate return for us, UM, being able to drive demand campaigns and, you know, and push, push people to raise their you know, grab the hand raisers. Those are immediate for us and I think it's just communicating that balance of what they are and when you pull your strategy together, as well indicating cool, this is a long burn, this is a short burn, this is what we can that what we can expect, and then having some predictability around okay, what what? What are the activities that we're doing throughout the strategy and what can we expect? And I think that really helps from an executive perspective to have some understanding from from that from that perspective, I'm not saying it's going to be like, Oh yeah, cool, I understand this immediately. I think it's probably an ongoing conversation Um, constant tweaking, but at the same time, like that's I think that that's a really important part of, you know, having having that ongoing conversation Um and communicating successes as well. I think that's the one thing that I've particularly learned. You know, we have been through a very busy period and continue to go through a very busy period, and part of it is about communicating and celebrating your winds. You know that. Um, that's something I think that's really important to be able to do. So it's like, okay, cool, like I know, you've got your head down, them up and you're working. I haven't heard them up part before. I like that. I think that my Australian. But yeah, you know. But also, while you're going, celebrating what you're doing and what winds you're having along the way is a very important part of communicating that. Visibility and transparency internally is super important from that perspective. Agreed and and and to your point, it's like a balancing of quick winds and longer term investments so that there's...

...you can put some things on the scoreboard, but also managing expectations that the big things take time to play out. What, Um, last topic before we go. You know you're you're you're passionate about, quote unquote, sales and marketing alignment and there's been a lot of lip service to that. Um, what's the but for you? How do you how do you actually make it real? How do you make it tangible? How do you actually align the sales and marketing organizations in the right way, and what sort of old conventions. Are Ideas need to be tossed out in the you know, in the in the process. Maybe it's like m q ls as an outdated concept, but I'm maybe I'm leading the witness there. But what do you think? Um, yeah, I mean this is an interesting one for me. I think what I don't know if anything needs to be tossed out. I think it needs to be evaluated. I don't think you we evaluate things, the traditional approaches to things, to the new way of how we want to do business. So, you know, one of the thing things for me that I'm I'm quite passionate about and I don't have all the answers, do Um, but I think it is something that needs to be moved forward, is having a collective goal between sales and marketing. You talk about alignment. If you have two departments essentially that run independently and have independent goals and there is opportunity for contention there, there's going to be contention, you know, because they have two sets of different goals and even though that that, even though they might be complementary to one another, it's still to two different sets of goals and there always leaves that that opportunity for Um. Well, you didn't get me this, or I didn't have this or like, whatever it is, and it's that old, old dance. So, like, I think from an in theory, having those uh those goals come to and those targets come together, having one revenue goal that you're working towards and, you know, saying okay, cool, it's not just sales that owns that revenue goal. Marketing has to own that revenue goal as well. You know, because if you think about like, and well, this is one of the things for us, like, if you think about it from a from a customer, from a customer perspective, you know, marketing and sales. Why are we talking about marketing and sales alignment? It's because we want to give the customer better experience. Right, so the customer. I don't think marketing stops at one point in the funnel Um and sales takes over. I think that that alignment needs to needs to go all the way through the funnel. It's you know, you work, marketing works with Um sales to be able to help with mapping, to help with custom content, to be able to help how you how you close that deal together, if you look at the larger enterprise organizations. That's exactly what they do. That that relationship marketing is is crucial to to the relationships that sales hold and being able to push those forward. Um, and I think having those goals brought together will bring the organization together because it's it's essentially becoming. It will become a forcing factor from...

...that perspective and then I think, you know, you'll start to see where you have, like I would see, like different pods of marketing and sales together as as you work accounts or as you work through the funnel or whatever it might be. But I think like that that is what, Um, you know, we need to really look at to be able to make marketing and sales alignment real and tangible. That's that's the change that's going to need to happen, and that change being shared revenue target makes sense. Um. We're almost at the end of our time together in Russia and one of the things we like to do at the end is sort of pay it forward a little bit, share influences. It could be people, it could be books you've read, it could be perspectives, but when you think about people that have had a big impact on your people that you think the rest of the world should know about, or ideas that the rest of the world should know about? What comes to mind people that the rest of the world should know about. Um. So for me, Um, you know, I've had a coming to the U S. I didn't really know many people here at all, so I started fresh people that I found really helpful and have been able to help me along in my journey. Um, Katie Martell Um. She's based in Boston. She, you know, she's a she has a great, great history, has great knowledge and he's very generous with her, with her advice and knowledge. John Russo from B two B fusion. Um, he's been very generous with his knowledge and with his time and so on and so forth. You know, I I'd really shout them out. Um. I know one of the questions was from a WHO I admire. Um. You know, I look at Latini content from six cents. You know, I have great admiration for her in terms of what she's done with six cents, how she's brought that to market and really connect did with, Um, all parts of your audience to be able to drive advocacy from that perspective, Um, and just be able to be supportive of the community in general. So, you know, I think for me those are the example. Those are, you know, the people, Um, from a UM books that I there's only one thing that I really really read religiously, and Um Bob Hoffman has a newsletter that he sends out on Sundays. It's really related to add tech, and the reason that I like it is because, um, he's very snarky. Um, and I love that. I love that in his in his writing, he's very snarky and he's very like tells it as it is and then he breaks down things. You know, Ad Tech can be very complicated, but he breaks things down in a way that is really easy to understand and he provides you with really useful resources, Um,...

...and and that's that's something I read religiously. Other than that I read other things sort of sporadically, but that's something, you know, that's my Sunday morning, Sunday morning read, if you like. So what's the name of that publication again? Um, well, it's it's not his specific public it's if you look up Bob Hoffman. Um. Yeah, it's just his his his weekly newsletter. So I'm happy to yeah, I I just sort of signed up for someone that sent it to me and it's something that, um, that I just really enjoy reading. Makes a lot of sense and we can certainly, we have it in our power to Google Bob Hoffman. So chief aggravation officer, it looks like, is what it says on Linkedin for type A group. That sounds about right for somebody interesting. Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, I I love that style of of of writing and I just like that that's a sort of straight up I think sometimes, you know, we can get confused with a lot of flowery language and I'm, I'm, I'm. You know, I I do that myself, but I just really like the way that he writes and he articulates. Love it. NIOTIA, it's been wonderful having you on the show this week. If touch, if you're open to it? Sure, yeah, I'm definitely open to it. Always happy to have a conversation. Um, my linkedin is great. My email, so do you maybe you can type it in the chat if you if you like. Um, I better type it because my surname is really a mouthful we'll have it in the show notes, as they say there. It is so yeah, you know, linkedin email is always great for me. Sounds Great. Well, thanks so much for being our guest on the show this week and we're going to talk to you on Friday for Friday fundamentals. Awesome. Thanks, Sam. Take care. One, two, everybody SAM's corner. Uh, Sam Jacobs, as you know, your host, your friendly neighborhood host, and I really love that conversation with Nearasha. You know, one of the account based marketing gets a lot of gets, a lot of, you know, airplay, but what does it really mean and what it really means to the point of sales and marketing alignment, which Nearosha talked about, is is simply joint planning process, jointly shared goals and making sure that both of these organizations, the sales team and the marketing team, are working together and not at cross purposes. And that requires shared metrics, that requires effective collaboration, communication and that even requires shared account planning and account mapping so that you understand what are the accounts you're trying to go after and you have a planning process in place. And I think, frankly, that's something even that, you know, I'm thinking about for Pavilion, my company. How do we make sure that we're more effective at planning jointly so that everybody feels like these are shared goals and shared exercises? So really good conversation and and just a nice person very clearly and and an adventure. You know as we as you probably you know something about the water or the air in Australia. But but Australians tend to uh, they tend to...

...wander the world and they tend to explore and seek out new experiences, and so it's always fascinating to hear about about that kind of journey and Nerotia has really led such an interesting life. And you know, Brilli inspirational. You know she she got in as I think she was the assistant, she was a personal assistant to the CMO at the Office Retailer Company, uh, the you know, the version of stables or office depot that they have down in Australia, and that led all the way up the organization. That led to working at PWC. That led to building up the brand and the Marketing Organization for Bambora, for Barbara and now for in flew too. So you know, it's just a testament that there's no one route, there's no one path. Everything is an experience, everything is part of your journey, nothing is a failure. All of it leads you to the next logical step. And if you can find joy in that journey and if you can find satisfaction and fulfillment and if you don't put inordinate pressure on yourself to be any particular thing, I think, I think that might be the key to unlocking happen is so certainly she's, example, find that in her journey and I'm sure in flu two is gonna is gonna do amazing things with her at the helm from a marketing perspective. So that's it. If you haven't given us five stars on the itunes storey yet, please do so. Uh, if you Um, if you want to get in touch with me, you can. SAMA JOINED PAVILION DOT COM. We've got a number of great courses coming up and UH at pavilion and I really want you to take a look at them. Uh, so you can learn more joint pavilion dot com, but you'll also hear from a word from other sponsors now and for uh, for today. That's all we'll talk to you next time with another great conversation from the Sales Hacker podcast. Thanks for listening. This episode of the Sales Hacker podcast had three amazing sponsors. The first is outreach. Outreach the first and only engagement and intelligence platform built by revenue innovators for revenue innovators. Go to click dot outreach dot IO. Forward Slash Thirty NPC were also brought to you by pavilion, the key to getting more out of your career and role in sales school, Sales Development School, marketing school and our upcoming recession education pack, including selling through an Econo mcdownturn, marketing through an economic downturn and leadership through an economic downturn. Learn more at Joint Pavilion, Dot Com and, of course, verisin. High Performing Revenue Organizations have a game plan for growth. Learn how verisent can help you create a predictable growth engine at verison dot com. FORWARD SLASH SALES HACKER.

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