The Sales Hacker Podcast
The Sales Hacker Podcast

Episode · 11 months ago

177. Trust-Building Strategies Every Seller Should Own w/ Moeed Amin

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode of the Sales Hacker Podcast, we have Moeed Amin , Founder and CEO at Proverbial Door and expert on the neuroscience of trust and decision-making. Join us for a great conversation about how buyers choose sellers, building (or breaking) trust, and common psychological mistakes sellers make.

What You’ll Learn

- Why sales is about trustworthiness

- Why Moeed says cold calls are horsesh*t

- Integrating your personal and work life to increase transparency

- Common ways that sellers fail to build trust

Show Agenda and Timestamps

- About Moeed Amin & Proverbial Door [2:40]

- What neuroscience teaches about buyer decisions [11:17]

- Ways to establish trust with customers [14:39]

- Why you should audit your personal life for trustworthiness [21:45]

- Common mistakes sellers make that break trust [25:00]

- Sam’s Corner [31:55]

One, two, one, three, three. Hey everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the sales saccer podcast. Today on the show we've got moda mean moid is the founder and the CEO of a company called proverbial door. It's a sales consulting sales training company that helps companies establish the right sales infrastructure. He's also somebody that's done a credible amount of research on trustworthiness and why trust is so important to establishing a great relationship with your buyer and a closing more deals. So we have a great conversation before we get there. We've got three sponsors for the show. The first is outreach. Our reach have been a long time sponsor the podcast. They just launched a new way to learn outreach on out which is the place to learn how outreach does outreach. Everything's backed up by dating. When you go to out reach on out where you learn how they do all of the things that they do. Run Account based plays, managed reps, build revenue, managed virtual events, all of it. So go to outreach dooh for its lash on outreach to see what they've got going on. This podcast is also sponsored by pavilion. Pavilions the key to getting more out of your career. A private membership connects you with a network of thousands of like minded peers thirteen different schools as part of Pavilion, University Mentorship, coaching and even mastermind groups that we call small councils. Unlock your professional potential with a pavilion membership. Leaders at every stage and their teams can get started today at Joint Pavilioncom. And finally, we've got a new sponsor on the show. Air Call. We Love Air Call, we use air call a pavilion. Air Call is a cloud based voice platform that integrate seamlessly with popular productivity and helped us tools from cal monitoring and whispering integrations with your crm and real time analytics. Air Call can help turbo charge your sales reps productivity set a new standard for sales productivity and performance by switching to a phone system that's best friends with your crm. Go to Air CALLCOM for more information. Great Cmo over are called Jeffreakers, and rvp of marketing, Carly Dell, came from air call. We Love Air Call. Now, without further ado, let's listen my conversation with MOEDA. MEAN, hey, everybody, it's Sam Jacobs. Welcome to the salesacker podcast. Today on the show we've got moied a mean. For over twenty years, moid has been obsessed with how and why people make decisions. His journey started when he graduated a neuroscience where he learned about the brain structure and the impact this has on the psychology of influence and decisionmaking. Fast forward several years and he has won various sales awards and led sales seems for small companies and billion dollar brands. He founded proverbial door because he was frustrated with the current advice in training on sales and persuasion. Sales is a noble profession and he is on a mission to elevate the whole profession and give sellers the best tools and strategies to become incredible persuaders without compromising on their values and changing who they are. MOED, welcome to the show. Thank you, Sam, and pleasure to be an excited for discussion today. Well, I'm excited for it too, so I mentioned the name of the company. I didn't explicitly say you are the CEO and founder of a company called proverbial door. Tell us what is proverbial door, proverbial dual exists to really change how sales is viewed in the entrepreneur...

...community as well as the sales community itself. There is a plethora of new be tob businesses, predominantly led by technical founders or subject matter expert founders with either no understanding or experience of commercialization, which is sales and marketing, or they have a very warped view of what good sales looks like. And now job in proverbed doors to help those founders do it in the right way and see radical growth, but in a way that's healthy, in a way that's ethical and long term growth and actually increases the value of their businesses. So when they have that exit strategy, you know they're selling it for far higher than they would if they did it another way. And then the other part of it is really just to help salespeople get to a consistent one hundred and twenty percent plus club and also for those who are high performers to stay there, because you know the world is changing and it's impacting how sales is currently being performed. So that's really the existence of a proverbed or and why I started the business. What do you think the misconception is that founders have the warped view, in your words, that they have about sales? More is better, right, so growth comes necessary from hiring more sales people. So that's the first one, because really they don't think about any precision when it comes to who they're selling to and why. They think that sales has to be feature, benefit, benefit or product led. There's very little customer understanding or very little deep customer understanding. Those are kind of the two very, very big ones that we see and those translate into things like, you know, a hundred cold calls a day. Right. I mean this is going to sound controversial, but total horship. It really really doesn't work the average person. When we look to the numbers, and I'm part of a group and a research group that looks at this now, we saw something something ridiculous, like less than one percent conversion rate on average, yeah, and one two percent typically. Yeah, and it's just a hugely inefficient way to connect with with your buyers and your and your and your buying community. So those are kind of the two, two main ones. There are quite a few others. For example, sales is still disconnected from marketing. Marketing is. You know, they're being told to provide lead generation through email campaigns, etc. But again they have no idea about the customers they're going after. They have no they haven't really done any work about who the ideal client profile is. There's also the misconception and if I hire a chief revenue officer, then my sales are going to go up. So this is going to sound controversial again, total horship if you haven't done the work. You told me that I could swear right and I don't listen. Horse shared as one of the great words in the English language, so you know you can say it for twenty minutes straight now. Wouldn't be upset. I only use these words when...

I have when I'm very emotional about those things right, because I've seen this time and time again where founders will find a chief revenue officers, often with good track record. Right, so nothing really wrong. They're it's not their fault. But that person may not be the right person for your business because of several factors, such as you're buying community, the products and services, your position and even your culture as a business. But if you hire a chief revenue officer who doesn't have the skills to create the right sales infrastructure in your company, which will therefore determine the behaviors of your sales team, then you're really hiring someone that's not right for your business. So making sure that you have the right infrastructure, such as the right targeting, the right Clie, ideal client profile, some idea of it, the right reward and compensation structures, things like that. If you don't have those those things correct, then you're really just hiring someone to create a sales machine without any intelligence. So those are some of the common mistakes that we see founders implementing when it comes to their sales strategy, and it makes perfect sense and I completely agree. I want to dive into a ton of questions, but before I get there, what's your background? Where you from? You know, like, how did you get into the sales game in the first place? Where we're from? Me Your formative experiences purely by accident, and it was never and I think that's quite a common answer, and actually that's what I want to change, because sales should be something that becomes more intentional as a career. But I started in neuroscience, I graduated in neuroscience and I converted to law because I didn't really know what to do and my mom was a lawyer and I thought well, Hey, I might enjoy it. And this is in our London or somewhere else's in yeah, sorry, so I was born and raised in London. Yeah, well, this was all London. Well, the UK. I studied in Majester University, so this was all in the UK and I ended up doing I completed the law conversion course, which is another degree. I completed what's called as the LPC, which the legal practice course here in the UK, to to become a solicitor, and then you have two years of training, basically, and kind of a few months into the training I just realized I really didn't like this at all. My fault. I probably should have done more research about that. And when I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do, I kept coming across sales job roles being published and I looked at the money in the potential earnings and I thought, you know what, this looks good. Why don't I give this sales thing ago while I'm figuring out what I want to do? And you know, almost twenty years later I'm still here. And started out in a company that this was back in two thousand and five two thousands, where they sold enterprise communications. This was before the explosion of the Internet really, and I actually had to resign from that job before I was going to get fired. So didn't start off very well, however, because I was instrumental...

...to a million multimillion pound deal there. I was headhunted by another company called Data Monitor and I learned a huge amount of about sales. They're very boiler room style business actually, but there was a lot of good things that I have that I took away from there that I was headtanted by another company called CB which is now owned by Gardner, and that's where my skills really took off because we started looking at things like best practices. I learned a ton of things there that would have taken people probably in five years, six years I was there. I would have taken at least ten, twelve years for someone to learn what I did. And then from there I started advising companies and salespeople about sales traitor, sales performance, etc. And that's where I found a proverbial door. But I've also I also sit on the other side of the table where I'm part of a private equity funding in the UK as well. So that's really kind of, in a nutshell, my my journey so far into sales. Well, I it's a great story and I showing a lot of the same people that used to work out at Seb because it's a prestigious group of alumni. Brian Kaplan, Christnado, feel Sophia the summer when I'll might have been your car exam they or some of them, more based in the US. So Brian Coplin sounds familiar. There's also Christophe Martel, who was my managers, like one of the best managers I've ever had. Actually, there was a great company. It's a great company, Probably Exam Company. Yeah, so I heard you've interviewed almost four hundred be to be buyers over fifteen years and you know you you mentioned that you graduated with a degree in neuroscience. What have you uncovered about how and why buyers choose which sellers they want to work with, and what's been surprising to you about what you've learned? Yeah, I have to admit what was really surprising was how important. So, firstly, every one of those four hundred buyers, and by the way, this this this isn't hugely complex research that see be would have conducted. You know, some of this was very informal discussions and I'll take notes and record them. But every single one of those four hundred buyers, across ten different industries and different buying levels, every single one of them used either both of these words or one of them, and that was trust and honesty, every single one. And that surprised me, if I'm being really honest. I thought they would have. It kind of all came down to that, and I thought they would have talked more about things like understanding my business, understanding my industry, and they did, but it wasn't wasn't as commonly noted as those two words. So when I dug further, this was less about sales skills and in fact it wasn't really about product knowledgy. That I mean there's a certain level of product knowledge you have to have, but that wasn't what made the difference. It was more about whether they could trust the seller to do a few things. Number one, deliver on promises. Number two, can they trust that the gains or the benefits the salesperson is claiming they can give are not exaggerated? Can they trust that the...

...salesperson will help them achieve their objectives and outcomes, not just their own? Can they trust that the salesperson is not just in it for themselves, that they also have the buyers interests at heart as well? Can they trust that the seller will continuously provide them with new with the lack of a kind of new and unique perspective about their world? Right? So, are they are source of Education for me? Am I going to leave each conversation smarter with that seller? And the other one that was quite surprising was can they trust that this salesperson is not just going to help their business grow, but help them grow as a person? Right? So do they take into account, for example, are they going to help me get promoted? Right, are they the ones that going to help me in my performance reviews show that I should be whether that promotion? I'll also get that bonus, because the some some of these desus decisions, quite big decisions, and they have to be aligned to their outcomes as well. So that was kind of the biggest takeaway in everything kind of stemmed from that trust and honesty. Honesty category, right. So whenever we talked about anything that set buyers likes about sales people. It ultimately led to that and with out that trust there was really no long term relationship and certainly not a relationship where the accounts in the spend of that account will continuously grow with the account manager. So that leads to the natural question of how how does want to establish trust? There's a guy named had capone in Chicago who wrote a book called the transparency sale, maybe mirroring some of these ideas, because there's a fear that if that some sellers have. Maybe there's a fear, I imagine there's a fear that if they're too honest about the shortcomings of the product, they'll kill the deal, and they're obviously directly incentivized to win the deal. So how do you establish trust and how do you keep in mind the realities of what you know about the product versus perhaps what the customer might not know? So firstly that's a really good question, right, because firstly we live in a radically transparent world, right. So you say transparency sale. We live in a radically transparent world. I have seen very few instances where a buyer has not done their homework enough that they would understand the pros and cons of different solutions out there less and less and this huge research out there see be gardener, forest, etc. Shoes reach, a research out there that shows sellers are being relied less and less over the years to inform the buyer and sales in some ways, and this is a dangerous thing, but it's a very true thing we can't hide away from. It's becoming commoditized and in that respect, psychologic clee. Actually it's the very opposite. If you try to hide some of the things that you don't do so well, there's countless research that shows that if you highlight one or two things that you don't do very well, but include that with the things that you do do very well, you actually in increase trust in the...

...recipient. To believe it or not, by hiding it, you actually doing your self more harm than good, I believe. Then, and if the seller, if a buyer, knows that, you're risking that right. You can't really take that risk and you probably noticed it yourself, like if someone I don't know if you can think of an example, but I have several examples where people have talked to me, you know, I've asked them about something that they do and they're say journey. To be honest, I'm not really very good at that or we don't do that very well. But that's okay, because what we really try to focus on is x, Y and Z, and those are the things that we really shine and doing that also helps you understand if you're speaking to the right buyer as well. So this is the point about precision. But to talk about trustworthiness. Stephen Cuby, the the author of Seven Habits of highly effective people, once wrote that trust is where competence and character converge. Now, competence or skills? That's a very big topic and it's very specific to the industry that you're in, the products you're selling, etc. And there's some broad categories. But what is very clear is that if you do not have the right characteristics, then all the competence in the world won't matter when it comes to trust. Warren Buffett, you know Bill Gates, so many very well known high performance individuals have said this many can on many occasions, in fact, Warren Buffett is said that without characteristics, without integrity, the latter will kill you. Right. So we'll talk about the characteristics, because those are really, really important and they actually feed the competence in a lot of ways. So there are eight characteristics that I found that are critical to having a trustworthy character. The first one is authenticity, right. Are you authentic? Are you speaking of truth? Are you conducting yourself in a way that aligns with your values? Consistency, right. So we see this in account managers when they first have a client come in. You know, the first year is just amazing. Their their professional, they are prepared there, they come with like immense amount of value that they provide to that buy but as the years go by and you know, there's this buyer becomes a bit more loyal, we start to see some complacency. Settling rights. Consistency is really important. Integrity, you know, don't need to label out anymore. It's you know, are you truthful? Are you're honest? Responsibility or accountability? So do I feel the sense of responsibility or accountability towards my buyer? Reliability as well, you know, do I show up on promises that I make? Do I make sure that our colleagues and delivery and product etc. Deliver on the promises that we make? Can they rely on me that? If you know, Shit hits the fan and it often does. Can they rely on me, with my sense of accountability as well, that I will do what's required in order to actually solve the situation? Too often we hear of salespeople that are very vocal and a very present when things are going on well, but the moment something goes wrong, all of a sudden they're not present and they hide behind product or someone else that can deal with the situation. The other one is guilt,...

...proneness or guilt worthiness. This was research conducted by the University of Chicago, and those people that feel guilt for an action right, they're more guilt prone to something that might happen. So if they're about to do something and they feel guilty about the action or guilty about what the consequences might be, they inspire a huge amount of trust because they change the course of their decision right and the actions that they take. So that wasn't quite a surprising one. Generosity is another one. Now, generosity is important because in my research, and I tested out a several times, generosity on its own, without the other characteristics, actually degrades trust because the recipient will feel like you're trying to buy their loyalty. So therefore, generosity has to be in tandem with some of the other characteristics. And then the final one is agreeableness. This isn't being a yes man or yes woman or just agreeing with someone. This is about am I tactful in how I share my opinion? Am I using tactful ways to influence the buyer? Right? Influence comes from the word a Latin went influware, which means to flow. So you know you like and influences. You know, getting into islet. It's like getting into a river. The river represents that person's opinion. If you step over the line and to really get into the river, to try to understand that person and where and how they formed those opinions that they're sharing, then you can more tactfully and more easily divert the course of that river and by sharing your own opinions in a tactful way rather than slamming a damn into the river and hoping to stop that opinion. That makes sense. So agreeableness is also another form of enhancing trust in the biers. So so those are the eight characteristics of trust. Having Trust. Why the character and they feed into some of those skills. That's the other dimension of trustworthiness. What are some practices? If you go in, you know a company hires you and they hire you for the full. They buy everything proverbial door is offering. So they do want you to help structure their sales team, but they also want strategies, drills or practices that they can instill on their team to improve and build upon trustworthiness. How do you advise people to get better at this? The founders know the the sales people are the sales but when you're e're coaching a salesperson and they say I want to be more trustworthy, I heard about the eight things that you know, I want to be more agreeable. But what specifically can I do my lead so that I can? I can, you know, begin working on this and in two months I'll be better than I am today. So the first thing, and this is going to sound weird, is choose your employers carefully. That's a that I well well, given the state of the market, sometimes it can be very difficult to do so. You know, if you're a graduate with very little experience, sometimes you don't have the freedom in the luxury to be able to do so. But where possible and if you do have a bit more control over that situation, choose your employers carefully. The reason why is you need to ensure that you have that that employer...

...has the right sales infrastructure to encourage the right behaviors. There are so many companies out there that are very unethical on their sales approach. Right whatever the buyers says, they need tell them yes and we'll figure it out right now. There's a good side to that, but there's also a very bad side to that, because if you really can't do it and you're kind of almost lying to them and encourage to do so, that's not really going to inspire trust in the by and the by will find out that's not a basis for a long term relationship. So choose your employers carefully. The second thing then, is do an audit of how you conduct yourself, both in your personal life and your professional life, because trustworthy characteristics. There's no difference between the two. Actually, a trustworthy person is someone who is both trustworthy in their professional life and in their personal life. So do an order to across those eight things right. Do you conduct yourself in an authentic way? Are you reliable? Do you feel accountability? So do that audit and and rate yourself, maybe in a scale of one to five, and ask yourself how good am I at those things? And then what I would then do is, I would say think about the buyers that you deal with right, think about the industry, the characteristics of those buyers, the responsibility that they have, think about them and then ask yourself, okay, which two or three of those eight are really going to shift and move the needle towards being highly trustworthy with them? And when you've identified those things, that's where you can start to do your research and actually ask your manager, even ask your colleagues. Do Your own research, and I've got I've got some research out there where you can start to look at more how do I become, for example, more reliable? How do I feel the sense of accountability towards my buyer? So I would start with making sure you have the right environment around you so that you can do that. Do An audit right and be as truthful as you can. Be Right and take your time in doing that audit. Don't just take one or two examples. Try Try to think of a quite a few of them, rate how good you are in each one and then look at based upon the buyer community that you're selling to. which are the most important ones right? which ones are going to really move the needle? And that's when you can start to find books. You know, look at research out there, speak to your colleagues, speak to your manager, even speak to your buyers and ask them. Right, think of some of the best salespeople you've ever done business with. What made them best and why is it that you trusted them? What did they do that made you trust them so much? And they will often tell you whether it is that they did and how they did it. So they were a great source of information as well. The onto is your question. It absolutely does. It absolutely does, and you know, specifically doing the audit and then making sure that you're you know, your personal behavior and your professional behavior are are correlated and are in...

...alignment, is also, you know, a really helpful a helpful suggestion. Are there one or two common mistakes that people make? Obviously, you know, saying the product can do something that it doesn't do. Yes, we know that that's a mistake. But other are there other, you know, common mistakes that you see sellers make, perhaps unintentionally, that break trust with the buyer. Yeah, some are intentional, somewhat unintentional. So the first one, which is one of the most cardinal sense, that I've even committed and I find myself committing it still. Right. It's hard to break old habits. Sometimes self sentedness, and what I mean by that is everything about your approach is based upon your self interest, right, the angle that you use, a hypothesis, the messages that you use in the emails or even on the phone calls. You know, it's just all about you, right, and it's all about your perspective, and that Your Company's perspective rather than the bias perspective. So self centeredness is is just a very common mistake that really breaks down rust. The other one is when you add either specification of the product or you structure the the agreement in a certain way that is more more beneficial to you as a seller than the buyer, mostly because that's where you get the highest commission. So that's that's another one again, because buyers are very well informed these days, so they can probably see and they'll question why you have certain things in a contract or certain certain specs in the product, for example. The other ones transparently self serving questions. Right. You know, people talk about diagnosis and questioning, and I don't understand why, but we're still training sales people to ask very obviously structured questions that steer the buyer towards a sale and rather than asking, and it's all about intention, right, Sam, this is asking questions because you're genuinely curious about the buyer and their situation. You generally want to really get to the heart and the root cause and understand deeply, like what's going on there. So one of the most common sins there is just really obviously transparent questions that selfserving. The other one is knack of knowledge, not sales knowledge or product knowledge, but lack of knowledge about the industry, that of the buyers industry, lack of business acumen. Right. That's a big one actually, that we're still seeing lack of understanding of the buyers role and responsibilities, you know, and how how others in their role doing things. So likes what a good practice and best practice, you know, just that lack of knowledge about the buyers world. And that was mentioned several times by those four hundred buyers that I spoke with. Right. It just and they termed it as they just they don't know about them, they have no clue about them and what they do. If you ask, and I've only seen of all the people that I've asked in terms of the salespeople, and I I've done this with so many now, maybe one or two percent, maybe, but I've asked this question. Tell me about the KPI's or the mbos or the Performance Review Mbos of your...

...buyers. So if you're selling to a CETEO or a CIO or CMO, list out for me their Kpis as a job role and worry about one percent, right, and they even that, being generous, were able to do so in a confident way and with clarity. So if you don't even know how your buyer is going to be measured in terms of success, how could you possibly, in an coherent way, in a good way, align your benefits to their values and what's important to them? Right? So, so that's lack of knowledge about their world. Is a very big one. And then the final one is, you know, lack of a well thought out hypothesis or opening to your discussion. Right. So, gone of the days where we predominantly have people that ask you know what keeps you up at night? Still there, but it's not as much, but it's been replaced by another one, which is, you know, what are your priorities or what are your challenges? Again, I'm a God that. I mean, it's just total horshit. I mean you, you live in a world that is radically transparent, right. There's so there's a plethora of information at your fingertips and it's for free. There is no excuse for you to not turn up to a meeting, a sales meeting, with at least a well thought out hypothesis. Doesn't have to be accurate, but it at least has to be thought out and you've got to be able to justify how did you come to that hypothesis? And that's what a buyer wants to hear. They want to hit they want to hear that someone's actually treated their time with courtesy and respect rather than wasting it. And have they come with a reason for why they want to talk to me and then we can talk about whether it's right or wrong. But those are kind of the the five, I would say, really big and common mistakes that I see. That really breaks trust actually. So, yeah, those are great examples and, to your point, underscore the importance of preparation, which shows a respect for the other person's time and expertise. Yeah, Mod if folks are listening and they and they want to get in touch with you, maybe they want to hire you and maybe they want to have a longer conversation. What's the best way to get in touch? Yeah, and you look, look at you don't need to hire me, right. I'm I'm you know, if time allows, I'm more than happy to share things with people freely and there's a ton of toll of resources to do so. So the first one is you can check me out at proverbial doorcom websites. You know, I need to change the website. That stuff in there is not it's not up to date. Haven't had the time in a good way because I've been so swamped with with a lot of clients at the moment. So that's one. Linkedin so forward slash movie dam in. There's a ton of stuff out there that I put on and you can always reach reach me there. Oh, I also have a youtube channel. So proverbial door as the channel and we're putting out a ton of content around trust. I also do some videos with an xvp of JP Morgan, helping people understand how to read financial statements, and we do this of companies as...

...well, so specific companies and people can actually ask us if they want us to analyze a company for them, right, so we can do that for them. In fact, most of our videos are from requests. And then the final one is you can actually contact me directly by email. So M am in, and we can put the link in the show notes, if that's okay. I'm in a proverbial doorcom and if you put the subject subject title of Sales Hacker, then I'll know where you're coming from and you know, happy to happy to chat with you there. Our listeners have many options to can't tell you in consume where I can't go to get more attention. Right. Intention attentions are big thing, right, and you know, the currency of the day, the absolute personal brand. It's a big one, right. If you're not commanding attention and if you're not where buyers are, and that's why you got to know your Buyas, then you're missing out on a big thing. Someone else is going to have their attention. It's a really Lloyd, thanks so much for being our guest on the show today. We'll talk to on Friday for Friday fundamentals. It's been up solute PROSIA. Thank you very much. Up. Hey everybody, SAM's corner. It's Sam Hi, it's my corner. I'm in my corner. You know, I follow an account on Instagram Jersey shitsues. I hope you follow that because it's just absolute, pure joy and it's just a bunch of shitsues making havoc. And my favorite shit sue besides the ones that I am the owner of and is a little guy named Tater, and TATER has tater's corner waiting. He takes all of his toys and hides them there. Sometimes the toys are regular dog toys and sometimes the toys are like a plastic tupperwork container that he just absolutely has to have in his corner, which is in the bathroom anyway. He's very funny guy and he also sleeps in like a coiled vacuum tube. So if you follow if you're on Instagram, go to Jersey shitsues look at their stories. It's absolutely wonderful. has nothing to do with Moet, I mean and our conversation, but I just it reminded me because I said Sam's corner and then I'm thinking about tater and Tater's corner, and you know my love for Tater because I'm in love with him. I've never met him, I will hope one day to meet him. He is something special in this world. He's all that's good in the world. Anyway, I hope you're chuckling. I'm chuckling. Was a great conversation with moet. I mean we talked about trustworthiness and we talked about how sales is not about ramming something down somebody's throat that they don't want our need. It's about building establishing trust so that you could help people solve their problems, and trust is just so important and MoD's goal is to elevate the profession of sales by reintroducing what modern sales really is. There's so much transparency in the world that it's not even possible to do it the old way. It really has to be the new way of transparency, honesty, integrity and having the good honest conversation, being inquisitive, thoughtful, not being selfserving, not talking about yourself the whole time and really sitting still and listening so that you can ask true, probing questions about what's going on with your buyer. MOEAD also said that cold calls are bullshit.

That's a controversial he said Horse Shit actually, but you know it's a form of Shit, animal feces. Some people truly believe in cold calls. Some people will even cold calls, not because they're necessarily effective but because they had still perhaps the right level of work ethic or discipline in the sales team. I don't know, I'm of I'm of a few different opinions. I think cold calls need to be part of an overall Omni channel outreach campaign to get somebody's attention, because getting people's attention is very hard in the modern era. So the other thing that moe talked about was just making sure that your personal life and your work life are integrated in the in if you want trustworthiness and character in your personal in your professional life, you need to have the same thing in your personal life and for when I asked him what are some strategies to build that, he's at first pick the right company that has the right character and the right level of authenticity, honesty, transparent see transworthiness. So that's that. That is important to do your due diligence. It's a good labor market out there. You can find a new job, make sure that you're talking to companies that put character and honesty and integrity at the heart of what they do and at the heart of their values, because that will drive the behavior that you are asked to perform as an employee of that company. So great conversation and hope you enjoyed my little tangent on tator be. He really is a wonderful guy. If you want to reach out to me, you Ken Sam a joined pavilioncom. If you haven't yet checked out the sales haacker community, you're missing out. Any sales professional can join as a member to get get immediate answers to any question, share experiences, jump in and start a discussion with more than Seventeen Tho sales professionals at sales hackercom. Of course, thanks to our sponsors outreach, had to outreach dot io for slash on outreach to see what they've got going on and teach you how they use their platform. Unlock your professional potential, take a class, find a mentor and up level your career with a pavilion membership. Go to join pavilioncom to learn more and finally, are called are called the cloud place voice platform, a new standard for sales productivity that's best friends with your crm and makes it super easy to connect with your customers. Go to air call. I don't think it'Scom. Actually, I think it's that. I oh, see what it is. It's are called I io. I said got calm at the intro. It's that ioh are called out IO. Wonderful Company. We Love the company. They're doing great work. I think that's all I have. I'll talk to you next time.

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